Spanish WWC Win Marred by Assault

August 26, 2023 9:18 AM

In the immediate aftermath of a thrilling final that saw Spain's first Women's World Cup victory, Luis Rubiales, the president of Spain's soccer federation, kissed player Jenni Hermoso, which she has said was done without her consent. FIFA has suspended him for 90 days, but Rubiales refuses to resign, the Spanish soccer federation is threatening to sue Hermoso for giving her side of the story on Instagram, and the entire women's team is on strike.
posted by Etrigan (86 comments total)

*sighs*
posted by Fizz at 9:40 AM on August 26, 2023 [11 favorites]

I just saw the headline about FIFA suspending him, which is good. It seems unfortunate that the Spanish soccer federation is doubling down on backing him instead of, at least, taking a more neutral "we need to investigate this complicated situation" kind of approach.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:42 AM on August 26, 2023 [4 favorites]

It seems unfortunate that the Spanish soccer federation is doubling down on backing him instead of, at least, taking a more neutral "we need to investigate this complicated situation" kind of approach.

The truly gross thing is that there's nothing complicated about this at all. It's assault and he should lose his position and be barred from ever being a part of that sport for the rest of his life.
posted by Fizz at 10:11 AM on August 26, 2023 [23 favorites]

Spanish Soccer Federation doing the worst Captain Renault impersonation.
posted by kokaku at 10:12 AM on August 26, 2023

“The kiss was the same I could give one of my daughters,” Rubiales said.

Uh, this is not the reassurance you think it is.
posted by adept256 at 10:36 AM on August 26, 2023 [42 favorites]

He had me at "false feminism." How could anyone resist such a fine specimen of a man? I might just swoon.
posted by heyho at 10:41 AM on August 26, 2023 [2 favorites]

The crazy thing is that it had already been marred by Rubiales and Vilda (the women's national team's coach, whom they had asked to get rid of and who kept his job because of Rubiales) before any of this happened. Spain won the world cup with some of their best players absent because they were already on strike because of Vilda. Vilda was pretty much being shunned by players throughout the world cup, and all the media coverage I've seen has described the team as winning in spite of their coach. You'd think, given all that, that Rubiales would maybe try to keep a modest profile during and after the games. But no.
posted by trig at 10:42 AM on August 26, 2023 [7 favorites]

And no. He grabs her by the back of her head and kisses her full on the lips. Apparently this was just after he grabbed his crotch. Ugh.
posted by bluesky43 at 10:42 AM on August 26, 2023 [2 favorites]

World Cup kissing row: 11 coaches resign as Rubiales vows to fight on after Fifa suspension

This is basically developing by the minute
posted by trig at 10:47 AM on August 26, 2023 [8 favorites]

The truly gross thing is that there's nothing complicated about this at all.

Indeed and it's not just the planted kiss, he was being way too grabby with his hugs with every player, and he made that stupid gross crotch-grabbing gesture in celebration when the match was over which was in the most generous interpretation extremely inappropriate.

And his doubling down is just ugh, confirmation that he is used to ignoring women's boundaries. All that bullshit about "fake feminism". What an asshole.
posted by bitteschoen at 10:48 AM on August 26, 2023 [2 favorites]

Mod note: Comment and response about old news removed at poster's request.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:51 AM on August 26, 2023 [1 favorite]

It seems almost impossible to imagine that Rubiales won’t be forced out, sooner rather than later, and I worry that the stories which will then come out will be horrific. Already one woman has stepped forward to talk about harassment in the offices of the Spanish football federation. And if he doesn’t hesitate to harass a player when there are dozens of cameras pointed at him, I don’t want to think about what he does in less public settings.
posted by Kattullus at 10:53 AM on August 26, 2023 [8 favorites]

Hermoso's full statement in English on her Instagram, it's worth reading. One particularly enraging detail among many is that she was pressured by the federation to make a joint statement with Rubiales to allow him to save face basically but she refused, thankfully
posted by bitteschoen at 10:57 AM on August 26, 2023 [20 favorites]

This assault was carried out live on TV, the woman's discomfort is obvious. It has been irritating watching the odd TV commentator here try to wave it away, even as most of them call it as they see it. The sports association meeting where Rubiales chants that he won't resign is particularly disconcerting, as many applaud him, though not so many of the women.
posted by chavenet at 11:01 AM on August 26, 2023 [5 favorites]

Help educate an ignorant middle aged male. Fun!

I've watched the footage and it doesn't seem particularly egregious. It echos Messi's celebration where he kissed the cup. Willing to be wrong and educated, but aside from the weird crotch grab his actions do not seem out of line after winning the world cup.
posted by Keith Talent at 11:10 AM on August 26, 2023

Help educate an ignorant middle aged male. Fun!

If you want to be educated you have to have a desire to learn. So learn this then!

Listen to the people in this thread and the woman who is telling you how she felt and what she experienced. Listen to the women and men in this thread who are speaking about what happened and how wrong and gross his actions were. Don't come in here and try to defend and deflect from something that happened right in front of everyone in 4K.

Read the room, fuck. Ugh.
posted by Fizz at 11:14 AM on August 26, 2023 [82 favorites]

It echos Messi's celebration where he kissed the cup.

Women being treated the same as an object is something one or two of us has objected to over the years, though
posted by trig at 11:18 AM on August 26, 2023 [146 favorites]

Help educate an ignorant middle aged male. Fun!

If you want to be educated you have to have a desire to learn. So learn this then! ...

And if you're also asking how you can tell just by looking, well, sometimes you can't. And that is always by design. So do what Fizz says and just listen and learn that way. I'm glad you asked that. I hope others follow suit.
posted by heyho at 11:20 AM on August 26, 2023 [4 favorites]

Help educate an ignorant middle aged male. Fun!

I've watched the footage and it doesn't seem particularly egregious. It echos Messi's celebration where he kissed the cup. Willing to be wrong and educated, but aside from the weird crotch grab his actions do not seem out of line after winning the world cup.

LOL. If I was grading your performance as an internet troll, I'd probably just recommend you for expulsion from the Troll School. I'm not even sure how you scored high enough to enroll in the first place. Maybe don't try so hard? I've seen twelve-year-olds who are better at this than you.
posted by nightrecordings at 11:21 AM on August 26, 2023 [11 favorites]

Keith Talent, did you just compare a woman to a literal trophy?
posted by sagc at 11:21 AM on August 26, 2023 [40 favorites]

I've watched the footage and it doesn't seem particularly egregious.

Were you expecting him to rape her on the pitch?

It does not matter that it was not particularly egregious, she did not consent. If it was in a nightclub I would call him a dick and move on. As it is, he has clearly brought the game into disrepute and he cannot possibly remain in his position. This kind of shit is just not acceptable.
posted by plonkee at 11:21 AM on August 26, 2023 [9 favorites]

The truly gross thing is that there's nothing complicated about this at all.

It was made more complicated by the statement that was put out by the Spanish FA which suggested Hermoso agreed it was consensual, and it was only late in the week as the controversy continued that she put out a statement out saying she was pressured into agreeing to it and it was very much not consensual. The Spanish FA was thus able to muddy the water and that looks like it helped slow the build up of people calling for him to be sacked. On the plus side this does seem to have revealed more about how rotten the Spanish FA appears to be, which maybe might lead to more of a clean up. Maybe.

It echos Messi's celebration where he kissed the cup.

The World Cup isn't animate? I'm struggling to believe you aren't trolling here.
posted by biffa at 11:21 AM on August 26, 2023 [6 favorites]

I'm not trolling. I see how the messi/ trophy analogy was the most ham handed thing of all time. Apologies.

And to those what responded with vitriol/sarcasm, thanks for being totally unhelpful.
posted by Keith Talent at 11:33 AM on August 26, 2023 [2 favorites]

That kiss would have looked inappropriate coming from a husband to his wife after her athletic triumph.

It was an overt sexual claim on her and a weird attempt at subordination and subjugation.
posted by jamjam at 11:36 AM on August 26, 2023 [16 favorites]

To be frank, if you're unable to see the difference in what's at stake when a man kisses a physical object, versus what's at stake when a man kisses a woman (especially a woman he's not dating, and with whom he shares a professional-if-distant relationship) then I'm not sure anyone is going to take you seriously. Something to consider.
posted by nightrecordings at 11:40 AM on August 26, 2023 [28 favorites]

I'm not trolling.

I find that difficult to believe. You say you want to be educated; I mean did you click the link to read what Jenni Hermoso shared regarding her experience of what happened to her.

Here, I'll share it again in case you missed it.

Maybe read and listen more instead of spouting a tired defense of men being gross and engaging in toxic and violent behaviour. It's not hard.
posted by Fizz at 11:41 AM on August 26, 2023 [14 favorites]

Indeed and it's not just the planted kiss, he was being way too grabby with his hugs with every player, and he made that stupid gross crotch-grabbing gesture in celebration when the match was over which was in the most generous interpretation extremely inappropriate.


And the commentators in that video think it's hilarious. Ugh.
posted by bluesky43 at 11:43 AM on August 26, 2023 [1 favorite]

Grabby hugs and also literally throwing Athenea del Castillo over his shoulder and carrying her around the pitch like the victim of house fire.
posted by theory at 11:47 AM on August 26, 2023 [5 favorites]

A 90-day suspension by FIFA is not support for the women’s team, just their way of avoiding questions for 90 days in hopes the Spanish federation will sort it out in the mean time.
posted by cardboard at 11:48 AM on August 26, 2023 [8 favorites]

Also, again, none of this happened in a vacuum. It happened in the context of longstanding grievances on the part of the women players against the almost entirely male management, specifically including Rubiales and Vilda. Where the most fundamental accusations were controlling treatment and an ingrained lack of respect.

And, like in many places, it happened in the context of a world where feminism exists, where #metoo happened, and of course where the right wing has taken up anti-feminism as a major rallying cause and active election strategy.

Rubiales denounced "false feminism" in a public speech in front of the Spanish football federation, of which apparently 134 members are men and only 6 are women, to cheers from much of the crowd including the head coaches of both the men and women's national teams. He did that expecting cheers, and he got them, and this is the context that the women's team players had been forced to work in for years, despite their protests.

Seriously, Rubiales isn't a 90-year-old who just can't get used to newfangled concepts like not treating women like you're entitled to them and not abusing your power. He is someone who's actively and repeatedly decided to reject those ideas, which have been around his whole life, while maintaining that he had no idea that they even existed and therefore how could he have expected anyone to object.

None of this came out of nowhere.

Anyway, some good things: besides the 11 women's national team coaches who have just resigned (that's everyone apart from Vilda, apparently), "several high-ranking members of the federation reportedly resigned, including Rafael del Amo, who oversaw women’s football, and a handful of others who represented the federation in regions across the country"; Xavi and some other male players have come out in support of Hermoso, including at least one, "Borja Iglesias, who has also refused to play for Spain under the federation’s current leadership". They're also getting a lot of support from the current government - but again, the current government is a left-wing one, and one of the ministers who's been active on this from the beginning has been the target of severe right-wing misogyny herself.
posted by trig at 11:56 AM on August 26, 2023 [39 favorites]

> Help educate an ignorant middle aged male. Fun!

Do not grab and kiss women (or anyone) with whom you do not have a pre-existing relationship that specifically allows that. Not at a party. Not on the street. Certainly not in the workplace, which all craziness aside is what a professional soccer match is.

It’s really a very simple rule.
posted by chasing at 12:16 PM on August 26, 2023 [54 favorites]

I think it's also interesting that last year, when 15 of the top women players declared that they wouldn't play for the national team unless things changed, the Spanish football association made a lot of the fact that the players didn't have any specific event they could point to as being big enough to go on strike for: instead they were 'just' complaining about a long series of 'small' things and the emotional effect that had on them. (You can read the FA and Vilda's incredibly harsh and not respectful responses here.)

Small things can only be small when they happen in isolation. When they happen again and again, it all adds up to something enormous - but it's so hard to convince people that it's enormous, because the response is usually "but you can't point to any one big thing, right?"

In a way Rubiales did everyone a favor, by committing a series of acts in public that people could finally agree to recognize as being big 'enough'.
posted by trig at 12:23 PM on August 26, 2023 [11 favorites]

I got up early to watch the game, and watched the post-game ceremony live, and I went from incredulous to aghast to furious watching this. Player after player after player walked across the stage, shook hands or had brief hugs with the various diginitaries, and then there was this guy last in line.

Hermoso may have been the only one he kissed on the lips, but he literally manhandled (!) just about every single one of them, forcibly grabbed them, pulled them to him, kissed them on the cheeks and often lifted them off their feet. It was insane. I was shouting at my wife, three feet away, who the hell is this guy and how is he getting away with it? Our best guess (we didn't know who he was) was that he was some sort of Spanish royalty and so that's why they were tolerating it. Holy cow am I happy to see this response (and still so sorry for the women who endured this, at what should have been one of the most joyous moments of their lives).
posted by martin q blank at 12:36 PM on August 26, 2023 [24 favorites]

aside from the weird crotch grab his actions do not seem out of line after winning the world cup.

I've seen on the news a video comparing what we saw with the kind of congratulations given to the men's team instead when they won - not the overall celebrations with everyone cheering and jumping together raising the cup etc., but the moment when every player queues up to be greeted by the FA representatives. With the men it wasn't hugs and kisses, it was respectful handshakes from an appropriate distance. Wish I could find the video because the difference is so eloquent.

Also, yeah, Jenni Hermoso herself, the player in question, has explained the kiss was not welcome and not consensual. And this non consensual kiss didn't happen among ordinary people in a pub on a Friday night, it wasn't some random drunk guy getting a bit too eager with his date, it happened in front of the whole world during a very high profile occasion and the man doing this represents his country's football association. It's indefensible any way you look at it.

Obviously, a non consensual kiss is not the most egregious form of sexual assault, but it's still non consensual, and in that high profile top professional context it's just completely out of place.
posted by bitteschoen at 12:37 PM on August 26, 2023 [16 favorites]

In a way Rubiales did everyone a favor, by committing a series of acts in public that people could finally agree to recognize as being big 'enough'.

God, you would think, but right here on this thread we have an obstinate middle-aged man who doesn't see what's so bad about grabbing a woman and forcefully kissing her without consent.

Some men are so invested in the patriarchy that they refuse to recognize the obvious. To me, at least, the most dispiriting thing isn't that there are assholes that abuse their power; it's that men like this one will line up to defend them, if not with outright hostility towards the victim, then almost unbelievable levels of ignorance about the nature of both the violation and its context. It doesn't look so bad. You're overreacting. It was just a kiss!

Fuck.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:42 PM on August 26, 2023 [13 favorites]

also: the overt crotch-grab is still truly (and grossly) commonplace in Italy and Spain, however Rubiales’ celebratory ostentation of it is a similar power play as his excess manhandling and face-plant, in the context he chose to enact it. No “cultural” excuse there either/at all. It’s great that the team’s players are wise to the platform and power they have right now, and are putting it to eminent use - bravissime!
posted by progosk at 12:56 PM on August 26, 2023 [3 favorites]

yeah - crotch that needs to be kicked meets literally the new world champion ball kicker. It would have been self-defence.
posted by adept256 at 12:59 PM on August 26, 2023 [4 favorites]

Mod note: Comment removed. The derail about educating another user can end now and folks are encouraged to educate themselves before popping into a thread and demanding others educate them. Let’s all move on now.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 1:05 PM on August 26, 2023 [5 favorites]

I watched the video of Rubiales so you don't have (and trust me, you don't have to). It's a profoundly weird example of an entitled asshole forcing his employees to sit in an auditorium and listen to him rant about "real feminism" and what "true equality" means (spoiler: it means that he's right about, basically, everything). His daughters are planted in the audience (probably to prove he can't be sexist because he has daughters) and you can smell the cringe coming off of them in waves, it's really something. Also, when he says his applause-lines, most of the men in the audience applaud but none of the women, and later on they only show closeups of a handful of men nodding and agreeing with him.
It's like a Michael Scott moment except there's nothing funny about it.
posted by signal at 1:24 PM on August 26, 2023 [19 favorites]

A revolution 40 years in the making (Guardian) - a badly edited but interesting overview of events both during and preceding Rubiales's tenure. I didn't know that last year wasn't the first time the women's players had made a major protest.
posted by trig at 1:44 PM on August 26, 2023 [3 favorites]

More links to help follow the info:

Summary/timeline from the AP

r/womenssoccer

A couple things I'm waiting for more follow-up or reliable reporting on:
- the government's case(s) against Rubiales. The AP article states that "Spain’s government — via its Higher Council for Sports — filed a lawsuit Friday alleging that Rubiales violated the country’s sports laws on two counts"--but I'm seeing other sources reporting on a possible prosecution for sex offense(s) (e.g. here) or workplace violation.
- consequences for Vilda? There was reporting a few days ago about footage in which he "appears to grope" coaching staff during the WC (Reddit discussion/link to Indy100; also CNN)--any more info?
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 3:04 PM on August 26, 2023 [1 favorite]

Middle-aged male England supporter here, everytime I see that image of this dipshit assaulting the player I have to scroll away immediately, it's a horrible, visceral image of an assault. I cannot believe that the glory and excitement of winning the WC (good job, Spain, you battered our team, well-deserved) has been entirely replaced by coverage of this all-season-asshole AND his putrid, decomposing organization showing the entire world why they should all be melted down into a bucket of lard and set on fire.

I'm amazed the team was that good, despite the barrel of shitcreeps constantly wanking themselves into a froth live on a global stage around them.
posted by bookbook at 3:17 PM on August 26, 2023 [10 favorites]

I'm not very sports-aware, and acknowledging that this is an issue of the Spanish Soccer Federation, specifically, but it also seems that FIFA hasn't acquitted themselves very well throughout the WWC in supporting women's sport. Is there a case for women's soccer globally to create their own federation?
posted by amusebuche at 3:21 PM on August 26, 2023 [1 favorite]

I'm not very sports-aware

You should know that FIFA are scum.

Afghanistan women's national soccer team left to sit on the sidelines of World Cup

The Australian government granted emergency visas to evacuate the team to Australia following the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan two years ago, after an international campaign spearheaded by activists, lawyers and the team's former captain.

But the team has been barred from international competitions for the past two years because they are not officially recognised by the sport's global governing body, FIFA.

---

FIFA said the matter was considered an "internal affair of the member association", which is the Afghanistan Football Federation.

"FIFA does not have the right to officially recognise any team unless it is first recognised by the concerned member association," a spokesperson said.

So the Afghan team were there but they weren't allowed to play because FIFA didn't get permission from the taliban. The men's team is in the comp though.

Yeah, FIFA sided with the taliban. They don't give a fuck about women's rights. Or LGBTQ rights. Or human rights at all really.
posted by adept256 at 3:44 PM on August 26, 2023 [29 favorites]

Yeah, FIFA sided with the taliban. They don't give a fuck about women's rights. Or LGBTQ rights. Or human rights at all really.

My assumption without knowing much about it is that they have grown powerful by siding with the powerful. I could be completely wrong about that, but I'd be very surprised if I am.
posted by clawsoon at 3:59 PM on August 26, 2023 [2 favorites]

Rubiales is also a VP at UEFA, another set of parasites from the 'football family'.
posted by biffa at 4:20 PM on August 26, 2023 [2 favorites]

Rubiales assaulted Hermoso, full stop. Didn't ask, didn't have permission, and acted from a position of power without her consent. Given how black-and-white his abuse is, in front of the whole world, on top of all the other garbage the Spanish women have dealt with, I can see only one reason he hasn't been fired out of a cannon: All the other men in charge want to protect their opportunities to pull the same kind of garbage.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:34 PM on August 26, 2023 [9 favorites]

Well, Gianni Infantino is infamously empathetic and supportive, so there's hope!
posted by trig at 4:51 PM on August 26, 2023

It's just so stupid/sad/cringe that immediately upon the Spanish women winning the Cup these two men insist on grabbing and then refusing to let go of the spotlight, making what should be a nice long celebration of the women and their win instead a huge focus upon them.
posted by riverlife at 5:49 PM on August 26, 2023 [20 favorites]

I've watched the footage and it doesn't seem particularly egregious

That’s because it’s not about the kiss being “egregious” or not. It’s about power and the perception this coach held that he could just have an intimate moment at his convenience and without her consent.

Just like rape is not about sex. It’s about power and the lack of consent.

Duh.
posted by zooropa at 5:54 PM on August 26, 2023 [7 favorites]

Seriously, Rubiales isn't a 90-year-old who just can't get used to newfangled concepts like not treating women like you're entitled to them and not abusing your power.

This ageist idea needs to die. It doesn't matter if you're 19 or 90, if you're am adult you can fucking act like one, be held responsible for your actions and ideas like one.
posted by Dysk at 3:07 AM on August 27, 2023 [10 favorites]

It gets me how obviously he lies about her verbal consent - there’s video, it’s clear, there’s no conversation, there isn’t even a pause - and then the story shifts to that consent was implied by the moment, the circumstances - which literally just means “we’ve gotten away with this kind of thing for so long that if she gets to this point she must expect it.” (Also “if he wanted to then it must be true that she wanted to.”)
posted by anshuman at 3:38 AM on August 27, 2023 [6 favorites]

Just seeing those big paws on her head enrages me.
posted by mygraycatbongo at 10:06 AM on August 27, 2023 [5 favorites]

many of us are old enough to remember seeing adrian brody do the same thing to halle berry, right down to staging his assault in front of an international live audience. brody never suffered any consequences. hope rubiales does. those of us old enough to remember the aftermath and media treatment of that identical assault will remember how degrading and depressing it was to hear the whole world talk about a man physically humiliating a woman as dashing and kind of sexy, as an understandably exuberant way for him to celebrate a victory on the body of a woman who could not possibly be mean-spirited enough to spoil the world’s voyeuristic pleasure by minding.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:48 AM on August 27, 2023 [12 favorites]

He seems nice.
posted by essexjan at 11:59 AM on August 27, 2023 [1 favorite]

A lot of men people seem to think that sexual assault is exclusively defined as "a physical assault where, also, sex happens."

One of the reasons why sexual assault is its own category of thing is that it involves assaulting someone with something sexual—as in, forcing somebody into a sexual act against their will. If you touch somebody sexually when they don't want you to, that's sexual assault. That is literally what sexual assault is.

"No, that can't be true. That can't be what sexual assault is. Because by that definition, sexual assault would happen everywhere, all the time. Hell, half of my guy friends could be accused of committing sexual—"

Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yes. Now you're getting it.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 1:17 PM on August 27, 2023 [29 favorites]

Support from the soccer world:
La Liga men's clubs Sevilla and Cádiz came out with shows of support; Sevilla players took to the field with t-shirts with the hashtag #SeAcabó (This is over) and Cádiz players brought a banner reading "Todos Somos Jenni" (We're all with Jenni). It's good to see the solidarity.

The Women's Cup exhibition tournament final was played between Hermoso's old club Atlético Madrid and AC Milan; both teams had a number of World Cup players on their rosters (with Madrid having many Spanish teammates specifically) posed behind a giant banner reading "Contigo Jennifer Hermoso" (Together with Jennifer Hermoso). Hermoso was in attendance.

Also I just want to link this cartoon that was tweeted:
young girl: "Grandma, tell me about how you won the World Cup!"
old woman: "We not only won the World Cup, little one, we won so much more."
posted by Superilla at 2:21 PM on August 27, 2023 [8 favorites]

Every headline and article that calls it a "kiss" and not a sexual assault is pissing me off today.
posted by gingerbeer at 3:06 PM on August 27, 2023 [6 favorites]

to those what responded with vitriol/sarcasm, thanks for being totally unhelpful

Helped me feel good about the company I keep. Good job, all.
posted by flabdablet at 10:00 PM on August 27, 2023 [5 favorites]

OMG lol... prepare yourselves folks, the saga is reaching beyond ridiculous levels now: Spanish football chief’s mother declares hunger strike in support of him

The mother of Spain’s embattled football chief, Luis Rubiales, has reportedly shut herself in a church in southern Spain and declared herself to be on a hunger strike over what she described as the “inhumane and bloodthirsty hunt” of her son.
posted by bitteschoen at 5:17 AM on August 28, 2023 [6 favorites]

Well, guess Luis Rubiales is going to be partly responsible for his mum starving to death then (or just making an even bigger ass of herself when she inevitably ends up breaking the supposed hunger strike).

Or does just firing and charging the fucker count as "ending the bloodthirsty hunt"?
posted by Dysk at 5:21 AM on August 28, 2023

while i know we're supposed to move on:

I've watched the footage and it doesn't seem particularly egregious.

while this is entirely unrelated, it is also completely germane:
that famous picture of a seaman kissing a woman in a medical uniform at the end of ww2, in times square? the story most people are told is one of it being joyous and spontaneous. it's become a Thing, often seen as romantic, used to show the celebratory mood after a little boy and a fat man murdered over 100,000 asians to end the war.

the kiss was not consensual. the two did not know each other.

while the woman, greta zimmer friedman, didn't hate the guy, in her words she states:

"I felt he was very strong, he was just holding me tight, and I'm not sure I -- about the kiss because, you know, it was just somebody really celebrating. But it wasn't a romantic event. It was just an event of thank God the war is over kind of thing."

it's important to note that while she didn't view it as assault, she understands that reading; she is showing way more generosity to the sailor, because the war was over, than anyone should be expected to.

as a reminder, this was an era before the second wave of feminism, in which women expanded the scope to things like fighting against domestic violence and sexual aassault, fighting for reproductive rights and workplace inequalities; while women had the vote by 1945, it's difficult to argue that women were seen as equals and not trophies or objects to be won. women didn't have credit cards back then, let alone their own bank accounts. there were no laws prohibiting sexual harassment. there were no dv shelters for women.

the sailor, like rubiales, didn't care who the woman was. he just wanted a trophy. and nobody stopped him from grabbing the first woman he saw, willing or not.

that it's been almost 80 years and some people still think this entitlement to women's bodies isn't "particularly egregious" is... well, there's a reason why an enduring symbol of the feminist movement is a raised fist in venus.
posted by i used to be someone else at 6:16 AM on August 28, 2023 [15 favorites]

Rubiales now has not just his mother but also his female cousin publicly defending him, saying things like this:

"We want Jenni to tell the truth. Why has she changed her story three times? Our family has been harassed. This woman should tell the truth. Jenni, you should tell the truth. We want Jenni to tell the truth."

"The way they are treating with him, the aggression, the feminists, the television, it seems to me shameful."

It's shameful, indeed, when a man's sense of pride is more important than a woman's word and a woman's boundaries. If it had been only a matter of genuinely getting carried away with the celebrations, he could have easily apologized straight away and said something like yeah I know I got too carried away that was out of line and inappropriate and disrespectful to the player and to the whole team, I'm really sorry for treating a world cup winning footballer during the award ceremony in a such a gross manner in front of the whole world. But noooo. He behaved like that in front of the whole world at the highest level of high profile he could get in his profession precisely because he thought he could get away with it, so of course he's not going to apologize. Of course he and his defenders would rather question Hermoso's sincerity and blame "the feminists". Yuck
posted by bitteschoen at 12:08 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]

Are they just making shit up now? What's this "changed her mind three times" bullshit? Hermoso has been absolutely consistent in her statements from what I've seen?
posted by Dysk at 1:15 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]

I read today about Bob Barker's transgressions and it made me think about the 70s and 80s when there was a lot of consensual, non-sexual, casual public physical affection going on. There was a lot on the Match Game. Betty White sure appeared to be game when hit with some Gene Rayburn smooches. Why? Trust and consent. They were friends.

Affection is a big deal and as primates we require it to be healthy.

Had Rubiales been someone respected and admired as someone trustworthy who respected women maybe that kiss could have been considered consensual. Also maybe if he'd had a personal friendly relationship with her. But clearly he has not earned those privileges and was probably already known as a non-consensual toucher.

In any case, no excuses for that fucking guy. You must earn your kisses and other signs of affection.

More affection in the world please. Much more. But always remember, trust and consent. Trust and consent.
posted by snsranch at 6:25 PM on August 28, 2023

Had Rubiales been someone respected and admired as someone trustworthy who respected women maybe that kiss could have been considered consensual

no, it would be considered consensual if she had consented. you can consent to sexual or intimate physical contact from any old creep you please, admiring them doesn’t come into it anywhere. how sickening to think it could. assaulting someone who respects and admires you is one of the more hateful things you can do, actually

You must earn your kisses and other signs of affection

you can’t ever “earn” it. the kind of physical contact you can “ earn” (pay for) does not signify affection. touching someone isn’t a privilege they let you have in recognition of your hard work. jesus.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:46 PM on August 28, 2023 [13 favorites]

Are they just making shit up now? What's this "changed her mind three times" bullshit? Hermoso has been absolutely consistent in her statements from what I've seen?

I thought they were just twisting the facts and casting doubt on her own words in her full statement just because her initial reaction was a milder "I did not like it" but oooh I looked this up a bit more and no it actually seems the Spanish football federation had indeed put out a statement on her behalf:

The soccer federation first responded to the scandal by releasing a statement in which Hermoso downplayed Rubiales' action. Later, however, sports website Relevo.com reported that the federation had coerced her into making the statement. The federation denied this to The Associated Press.

posted by bitteschoen at 10:07 PM on August 28, 2023 [3 favorites]

Oh, and additionally, Rubiales had claimed Hermoso was the one to lift him up off the ground while they were hugging, and the federation put out images to corroborate this, but from a video taken from a wider angle it's abundantly clear he was the one to jump up while hugging her (which in itself was also kind of gross but uh this fucking guy what do you expect).

So yeah we literally have Rubiales and the federation making shit up as a defense tactic and claiming Hermoso is the liar here. Their word counts even when patently false, hers doesn't even when we have fucking videos. Awesome and totally not cliche textbook sexism!
posted by bitteschoen at 10:22 PM on August 28, 2023 [4 favorites]

Mod note: Amending this: A few deleted. No ironic sexism (or other ism) and no "fuck you" stuff. Making a comment in the voice of what "they" would say, which we often refer to as "ironic" X-ism is often confusing and read as real, plus saying the thing even in an "ironic" voice is saying the thing. Don't say the thing. Thank you.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:59 PM on August 28, 2023

Thank you bitteschoen for an actual good-faith answer to my question.
posted by Dysk at 2:05 AM on August 29, 2023

You're welcome Dysk, in fact thanks for asking those questions because that helped me clear up some confusion I had myself - as soon as I'd read the bit about "changed her mind three times" I thought it may be a figure of speech really, but no actually after reading more I figured out it's meant literally, and the three times in questions would be, according to Rubiales and his more outspoken defenders (including up to two different female cousins now! Lol sorry but as a woman coming from another southern European macho mamma's boys culture I find the bit about his mother and cousins speaking up for him really sad and hilarious at the same time):

1) saying "I didn't like this" in the post match interview, which according to Rubiales made-up version contradicts the "ok" he claims she gave him, so this would be the first time she "changed her mind", then

2) the bullshit statement downplaying the incident, statement she was coerced into by the Spanish football federation

3) her own full statement she published on Instagram in which she clearly says the thing was non consensual sexist etc

So this is how they're saying she had three different versions... Ridiculous really
posted by bitteschoen at 3:06 AM on August 29, 2023 [4 favorites]

I feel like an idiot for posting that. Damn, sorry.
posted by snsranch at 7:24 AM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]

snsranch, counterpoint—I'm glad you posted that because consent seems to be a really tricky concept for a lot men to get their heads around, and I do feel that the more we present different takes and ask hard questions, the more opportunity there is to dispel all these lies we're raised on. Please don't feel like an idiot, unless you've asked in bad faith or intend to ignore what you've learned because it'd be too much work to just start taking women seriously. But there's nothing to feel bad about if you've learned something—that's growth.

I'm reminded of a fun little rhyme: Mistakes are good; they help us grow. They show us what we need to know.

Indeed.
posted by heyho at 7:59 AM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]

The inimitable cartoonist David Squires has a typically clear-eyed and funny take: Luis Rubiales and the gaslighting scandal in Spanish football.
posted by Kattullus at 9:08 AM on August 29, 2023 [6 favorites]

so i asked a friend who's way more into football than i am with the idle question of "has the rfef always been this awful?"

and without skipping a beat, he said it was, even by soccer standards and then sent a slew of links dating back a decade.

i'm enraged rubiales is still even has a job after this came out last year:
Luis Rubiales accused of hosting orgies with money from Spanish Football Federation from 15 Sep 2022
posted by i used to be someone else at 10:24 AM on August 29, 2023 [4 favorites]

Sorry I need to make a correction to my previous comment, because upon further reading I found that it's actually not correct to say Hermoso was coerced by the federation into making a statement downplaying the incident -- instead, the federation put out that statement in the first person speaking for Hermoso, but she had never agreed to that in the first place...

This at least is what is stated in this recap of the incident here in English :

One of the things which was working in Rubiales’ favour was a statement put out by Hermoso, declaring that she had an excellent relationship with Rubiales, and that it was a mutual show of affection.

Only those were not her words. According to Natalia Torrente of Relevo, the Communications department for the Spanish women’s national team wrote and put out that statement, which speaks in first person of Hermoso’s relationship with Rubiales. The statement was put out to the press, reported widely, and not corrected by the RFEF.

Also more interesting details:

The attempts to calm the situation did not stop there. On Monday Rubiales appeared in an apology, claiming that it was again insignificant for both of them, that it was without bad intentions on either part, and that he had to learn from the incident.

Those words make much more sense when it is revealed that Rubiales tried to convince Hermoso to appear in a joint apology. Relevo’s reporting goes on to detail how Rubiales asked in front of other players, family and staff if she would join him in a video statement, which she rejected. Rubiales acknowledged that his job was on the line, and that he needed her support, something which was turned down by the footballer in front of numerous people ahead of their flight back to Madrid.


The pressure on Hermoso to save Rubiales’ face did not stop there. Manager Jorge Vilda approached Hermoso’s family on multiple occasions to try and persuade Hermoso to come out in support of Rubiales, a request which was denied outright by her family.

These allegations are serious and concerning. Spain’s players have been complaining for some time about professional standards in the national setup, and this adds more fuel to the fire that the women’s team is neither protected nor respected by the RFEF.

Attributing words to Hermoso that did not belong to her are not only morally questionable, but illegal, and should bring about a root and branch investigation into process and media operations at the RFEF.

As Rubiales teeters on the brink, the details from the aftermath of the incident continue to show a deeply problematic mindset and culture.

posted by bitteschoen at 11:21 AM on August 29, 2023 [7 favorites]

Somehow, he is even more vile than previously imagined.

twitter thread:
Extraordinary interview with Juan Rubiales, uncle of Luis. “All of our family stands with Jenni.” Calls his nephew “a cowardly man.” Juan adds: “He is obsessed with power, with luxury, and with women. He needs re-education on how to treat women.”

Google translate link for the article
posted by juv3nal at 3:48 PM on August 30, 2023 [6 favorites]

Luis Rubiales: What investigations could the Spanish soccer chief face? (Emma Pinedo, Reuters) covers potential criminal proceedings in Spain and actions by sports bodies

Prosecutors investigating whether football chief’s kiss was sexual assault (Ashifa Kassam, The Guardian)

Luis Rubiales' mother taken to hospital on third day of hunger strike (BBC Sports)
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 4:12 PM on August 30, 2023 [1 favorite]

May I direct your attention to Mona Eltahawy’s new essay, Feminism 1 - Patriarchy 0?

“It is no coincidence that the biggest, most attended, and queerest Women’s World Cup ended with a man who is “obsessed with power, with luxury, and with women,” assaulting a woman at the height of her career as a record number of viewers around the world watched…. If feminism promises an audacious freedom from cisgender heterosexual patriarchal norms, then women’s football is Exhibit A.”
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:32 AM on September 1, 2023 [5 favorites]

Now the head coach of the Spanish men's Team De La Fuentes has straight out apologised for, among other things, not reaching out to Hermoso, and actually applauding Rubiales at his recent "no voy a dimitir"-screed.
posted by progosk at 11:26 AM on September 1, 2023

All the rats, scurrying from the light.
posted by biffa at 11:45 AM on September 1, 2023

Spain women’s soccer coach fired amid unwanted World Cup kiss fallout (cnn.com)
posted by Etrigan at 8:46 AM on September 5, 2023 [8 favorites]

Jenni Hermoso files criminal complaint against Luis Rubiales over kiss (The Guardian)

Spanish soccer player Jenni Hermoso accuses Luis Rubiales of sexual assault for World Cup kiss
(AP)
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 10:55 AM on September 6, 2023 [6 favorites]

Spanish prosecutor files complaint against Rubiales for sexual assault, coercion (Reuters/MSN)

Spanish prosecutor files high court complaint against Luis Rubiales (The Guardian)
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 9:13 AM on September 8, 2023 [3 favorites]

Finally, Rubiales has announced he’s resigning (The Guardian).
posted by Kattullus at 2:04 PM on September 10, 2023 [7 favorites]

Spain’s World Cup-winning squad to continue boycott of national team by Suzanne Wrack in The Guardian. Excerpt:

All but two of Spain’s 23-strong World Cup-winning squad have signed a statement saying “not enough” has been done to make them feel safe and respected and said that they will not be available for selection for the national team.

In a two-page statement the players express their “enormous dissatisfaction” at the events that followed their World Cup win, including the controversial kiss by the Spanish football federation (RFEF) president Luis Rubiales of Jenni Hermoso and the events at the body’s extraordinary assembly. They have demanded more structural change, beyond the resignation of the disgraced Rubiales and sacking of the divisive manager Jorge Vilda.

The signatories call for a revamp of women’s football, the resignation of the interim president, Pedro Rocha, and a restructuring of the communications, marketing and ethics departments.

“The specified changes to the RFEF are based on zero tolerance for those people who, from a position within the RFEF, have had, incited, hidden or applauded attitudes that go against the dignity of women,” the statement read. “We firmly believe that strong changes are required in leadership positions in the RFEF and specifically, in the area of women’s football.”

As a result, the Spanish football federation said it would be postponing the announcement of Montse Tomé’s squad for the matches against Sweden next Friday and Switzerland the following Tuesday, with the statement from 39 players coming just over an hour before she was set to make her announcement.

posted by Kattullus at 2:12 PM on September 15, 2023