what are dreams for?
August 31, 2023 4:27 PM Subscribe
We know our bodies are paralyzed during REM sleep, and we know they twitch. We thought our muscles were somehow reacting to our dreams. But what if the twitch comes first? What if, in fact, the paralysis of REM sleep is a way to learn what it means to have a body--to test the boundaries and movements of the dreaming self, one muscle at a time? What Are Dreams For?, by Amanda Gefter for the New Yorker, explores this intriguing view and the research behind it.
Am I allowed to read this if my reach doesn’t exceed my grasp?
posted by mhoye at 6:14 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 6:14 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Paywall.
posted by metametamind at 6:24 PM on August 31, 2023
posted by metametamind at 6:24 PM on August 31, 2023
>> Am I allowed to read this if my reach doesn’t exceed my grasp?
>> posted by mhoye at 6:14 PM on August 31 [+] [!]
Wait. Is this that the second, or third knuckle. We all know the first finger segment is basically disposable.
posted by metametamind at 6:26 PM on August 31, 2023
>> posted by mhoye at 6:14 PM on August 31 [+] [!]
Wait. Is this that the second, or third knuckle. We all know the first finger segment is basically disposable.
posted by metametamind at 6:26 PM on August 31, 2023
This was a very interesting article and I sent it to some of my dreamy friends.
As someone who doesn't dream, one thing I'm really tired of is people telling me that I do in fact dream, but that I just don't remember them. I just don't dream. I also cannot create visual pictures in my head, have never had a hangover, and can't seem to get high. No idea if these are connected but they feel connected.
Regarding dreaming, I'm 55 and until I was 53, I had never had a visual dream. I did occasionally have audible dreams without any pictures, but those stopped when I was around 14. Then, at 53, I got a new mattress and immediately started dreaming. I hated it. Every one was about my dog being missing (my dog was not missing). I got rid of the mattress and got another. Same thing. I went through four mattresses until I got another one on which I don't dream and things are back to how they were for the first 53 years of my life.
The odd thing is, until I switched out that mattress, I had slept all over the world on countless beds, chairs, floors, etc. Never had a dream. Then I get that mattress and it starts.
None of it makes any sense to me.
I am an excellent sleeper. I go to bed and within 5 mins I'm asleep. If I wake, it's to pee and then I immediately am back asleep again. I do not use an alarm clock and on average sleep between 6 and 7 hours a night.
The 5 and a half months during which I dreamed and went through those mattresses were the absolute worst. I can't believe most people suffer through it nightly. I wouldn't wish it on anybody.
posted by dobbs at 6:31 PM on August 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
As someone who doesn't dream, one thing I'm really tired of is people telling me that I do in fact dream, but that I just don't remember them. I just don't dream. I also cannot create visual pictures in my head, have never had a hangover, and can't seem to get high. No idea if these are connected but they feel connected.
Regarding dreaming, I'm 55 and until I was 53, I had never had a visual dream. I did occasionally have audible dreams without any pictures, but those stopped when I was around 14. Then, at 53, I got a new mattress and immediately started dreaming. I hated it. Every one was about my dog being missing (my dog was not missing). I got rid of the mattress and got another. Same thing. I went through four mattresses until I got another one on which I don't dream and things are back to how they were for the first 53 years of my life.
The odd thing is, until I switched out that mattress, I had slept all over the world on countless beds, chairs, floors, etc. Never had a dream. Then I get that mattress and it starts.
None of it makes any sense to me.
I am an excellent sleeper. I go to bed and within 5 mins I'm asleep. If I wake, it's to pee and then I immediately am back asleep again. I do not use an alarm clock and on average sleep between 6 and 7 hours a night.
The 5 and a half months during which I dreamed and went through those mattresses were the absolute worst. I can't believe most people suffer through it nightly. I wouldn't wish it on anybody.
posted by dobbs at 6:31 PM on August 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
Absolutely fascinating.
Not to get too woo on anyone but it's oddly centering and comforting to think of bodies communicating to our brains this way. Feels... collaborative? Less lonely?
Nerves and senses and such are one thing but muscle twitches are... probably not that much different sure. But I'm still delighted!
...does anyone else let themselves twitch when they're pretending to be more asleep than they really are? I don't know if half-asleep twitches are entirely body initiated like dreamtime twitches. I look forward to experimenting
posted by Baethan at 6:36 PM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not to get too woo on anyone but it's oddly centering and comforting to think of bodies communicating to our brains this way. Feels... collaborative? Less lonely?
Nerves and senses and such are one thing but muscle twitches are... probably not that much different sure. But I'm still delighted!
...does anyone else let themselves twitch when they're pretending to be more asleep than they really are? I don't know if half-asleep twitches are entirely body initiated like dreamtime twitches. I look forward to experimenting
posted by Baethan at 6:36 PM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'd believe this only because there is the tale in my family of my older brother dreaming he could ride a bike... and riding a bike the next day!
posted by Grandysaur at 6:40 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Grandysaur at 6:40 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
They're where I'm a Viking!
posted by potrzebie at 6:41 PM on August 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 6:41 PM on August 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
Also, having finally read the whole article, that last paragraph is so sweet!
posted by Grandysaur at 6:44 PM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Grandysaur at 6:44 PM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
dobbs I have aphantasia as well! No images. Unfortunately I do get hangovers....
Dreaming is odd because I know I DID "see" images in my head. I just wasn't entirely conscious at the time, and of course can't call the memory into mental view. But the image was in here somewhere damnit.
posted by Baethan at 6:44 PM on August 31, 2023
Dreaming is odd because I know I DID "see" images in my head. I just wasn't entirely conscious at the time, and of course can't call the memory into mental view. But the image was in here somewhere damnit.
posted by Baethan at 6:44 PM on August 31, 2023
One of citalopram’s delightful (derogatory) side effects for me is several days/weeks of dreams a night. Like I am sometimes really glad to wake up because I get to have a few hours of my usually boring life before the grand adventures kick off again in bed.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:46 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:46 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Not to get too woo on anyone but it's oddly centering and comforting to think of bodies communicating to our brains this way.
Here's a news flash: your body and your brain are all part of one organism and they are thoroughly integrated. It's easy to get lost in the idea that you might be a brain trapped in a bone jar driving a meat robot, but it's more than you're a brain that grew fully merged with its fleshy robot and it receives as much feedback as it gives orders. Things happening in your gut might influence your decision tree more than your rational thought processes. I don't know if we're all predetermined beasts driven by the outcomes of chemical reactions on a level we can neither perceive nor control, but certainly bodies and brains communicate back and forth all the time and this should be comforting and felt to be entirely normal to the point of being beneath casual noticing.
posted by hippybear at 7:10 PM on August 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Here's a news flash: your body and your brain are all part of one organism and they are thoroughly integrated. It's easy to get lost in the idea that you might be a brain trapped in a bone jar driving a meat robot, but it's more than you're a brain that grew fully merged with its fleshy robot and it receives as much feedback as it gives orders. Things happening in your gut might influence your decision tree more than your rational thought processes. I don't know if we're all predetermined beasts driven by the outcomes of chemical reactions on a level we can neither perceive nor control, but certainly bodies and brains communicate back and forth all the time and this should be comforting and felt to be entirely normal to the point of being beneath casual noticing.
posted by hippybear at 7:10 PM on August 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
I love dreaming. Yes, sometimes they are bad dreams, but other times not. Dreaming during COVID was weird, I would be all like, "why am I in the crowded place and no one is masked, fuck this!" Had a lot of those dreams.
But when I am dreaming, I am not suffering from my current medical issues, (two weeks to go until things might improve). But I can almost never remember the dream I was having. There have been nights where I essentially am able to continue the dream I was having prior, but I can rarely remember what they were about.
Our brains are weird. Don't get me started about songs that invade your brain at 3AM and won't leave...
posted by Windopaene at 7:11 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
But when I am dreaming, I am not suffering from my current medical issues, (two weeks to go until things might improve). But I can almost never remember the dream I was having. There have been nights where I essentially am able to continue the dream I was having prior, but I can rarely remember what they were about.
Our brains are weird. Don't get me started about songs that invade your brain at 3AM and won't leave...
posted by Windopaene at 7:11 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
As someone who doesn't dream, one thing I'm really tired of is people telling me that I do in fact dream, but that I just don't remember them. I just don't dream.
you sound like my niece. I recall her saying this once at a family gathering and one of her aunts said, "So when you sleep, is it just like blinking? Because if it's not, then how do you account for that sense that some time has passed."
posted by philip-random at 7:20 PM on August 31, 2023
you sound like my niece. I recall her saying this once at a family gathering and one of her aunts said, "So when you sleep, is it just like blinking? Because if it's not, then how do you account for that sense that some time has passed."
posted by philip-random at 7:20 PM on August 31, 2023
As someone who doesn't dream, one thing I'm really tired of is people telling me that I do in fact dream, but that I just don't remember them. I just don't dream. I also cannot create visual pictures in my head, have never had a hangover, and can't seem to get high. No idea if these are connected but they feel connected.
For what it's worth, I have aphantasia (no visual imagery) but I do dream, and the dreams are visual. In fact I know I'm about to sleep when I start seeing things in my head, something that happens at no other time.
I don't get hangovers but that may be due to lack of drinking enough, and the same goes for not getting high...
This article was interesting and I suspect the idea is correct. Don't read it if you're fond of baby rats though.
posted by mmoncur at 7:23 PM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
For what it's worth, I have aphantasia (no visual imagery) but I do dream, and the dreams are visual. In fact I know I'm about to sleep when I start seeing things in my head, something that happens at no other time.
I don't get hangovers but that may be due to lack of drinking enough, and the same goes for not getting high...
This article was interesting and I suspect the idea is correct. Don't read it if you're fond of baby rats though.
posted by mmoncur at 7:23 PM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
you know when i found out other people saw the White Goddess during sleep paralysis the world felt both better and scarier.
posted by MonsieurPEB at 7:24 PM on August 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by MonsieurPEB at 7:24 PM on August 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't get hangovers but that may be due to lack of drinking enough, and the same goes for not getting high...
Well, those are both easy goals to achieve!
posted by hippybear at 7:26 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well, those are both easy goals to achieve!
posted by hippybear at 7:26 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
what are dreams for?
The sweetest dreams are made of cheese...
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:30 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
The sweetest dreams are made of cheese...
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:30 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
My dreams are weird and usually very different from one another. Occasionally a dream will give me a joke - or more often a "joke" that, when I'm awake, isn't all that funny or doesn't even make sense. C'est la vie. The one thing I do notice is that my sleep brain is a worrier and a lousy problem solver, helpless in the face of even the slightest of problems in the dream world.
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:40 PM on August 31, 2023
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:40 PM on August 31, 2023
My dreams have recurring (fictional) locations, along with recurring characters and memories that persist between dreams, so that I will remember events from previous dreams in one of those locations the next time I'm there. Most dreams are monster-of-the-week, but a surprising number are mythology.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:44 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:44 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
If we're going to get into recurring dreams...
I had this endless series of dreams for years. Wandering through this weird inhabited area that was always the same and always changing. At one point I went through some life changes and the dreams underwent their own series of metamophorsis, involving at one point the town being vacant and wandering through it going through people's dwellings, searching through cabinets and closets, and then soon after that actually having a dream of buildings being torn down, imploded, and the debris hauled away.
I haven't dreamed of that town or anything like it since.
I have some vague ideas as to maybe why this went on in my dream life, but it's not a 1:1 correlation. But I haven't had any dreams that FEEL like they're within those locales since that demolition dream.
I mean, WTF is up with THAT???
posted by hippybear at 8:52 PM on August 31, 2023
I had this endless series of dreams for years. Wandering through this weird inhabited area that was always the same and always changing. At one point I went through some life changes and the dreams underwent their own series of metamophorsis, involving at one point the town being vacant and wandering through it going through people's dwellings, searching through cabinets and closets, and then soon after that actually having a dream of buildings being torn down, imploded, and the debris hauled away.
I haven't dreamed of that town or anything like it since.
I have some vague ideas as to maybe why this went on in my dream life, but it's not a 1:1 correlation. But I haven't had any dreams that FEEL like they're within those locales since that demolition dream.
I mean, WTF is up with THAT???
posted by hippybear at 8:52 PM on August 31, 2023
I recall her saying this once at a family gathering and one of her aunts said, "So when you sleep, is it just like blinking? Because if it's not, then how do you account for that sense that some time has passed."
I got given Dormicum as an anaesthetic during wisdom teeth surgery and it was UNNERVING. It was literally a blink - I cracked up (for some reason) and one blink later an hour had passed and I had gauze in my mouth. I couldn't even believe my wisdom teeth had been taken out until many years later when a different dentist in a different country did x-rays.
At least under regular anaesthesia there was the sense of time passing, of being roused from sleep when it came time to wake up. But not Dormicum! I hate it!! Who knows what else happened to me in that lost hour!!!
posted by creatrixtiara at 9:26 PM on August 31, 2023
I got given Dormicum as an anaesthetic during wisdom teeth surgery and it was UNNERVING. It was literally a blink - I cracked up (for some reason) and one blink later an hour had passed and I had gauze in my mouth. I couldn't even believe my wisdom teeth had been taken out until many years later when a different dentist in a different country did x-rays.
At least under regular anaesthesia there was the sense of time passing, of being roused from sleep when it came time to wake up. But not Dormicum! I hate it!! Who knows what else happened to me in that lost hour!!!
posted by creatrixtiara at 9:26 PM on August 31, 2023
> "can't seem to get high"
Snarky response: not trying hard enough
Less snarky response: some drugs are exquisitely tuned to the mind/body connection. I'm very pleased to see more rigorous efforts to study their therapeutic uses.
Once, at the end of a yoga class (I'd taken a hefty dose of THC edibles before hand), while lying on the ground in shivasana, I was having very angry thoughts about my mother. I decided to forgive her, and almost instantly a huge muscle in my back unclenched and I sank about 1/4" towards the floor.
It left me deeply curious: was I forgiving my mother, or letting go of a clenched muscle?
(Both)
posted by constraint at 12:17 AM on September 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Snarky response: not trying hard enough
Less snarky response: some drugs are exquisitely tuned to the mind/body connection. I'm very pleased to see more rigorous efforts to study their therapeutic uses.
Once, at the end of a yoga class (I'd taken a hefty dose of THC edibles before hand), while lying on the ground in shivasana, I was having very angry thoughts about my mother. I decided to forgive her, and almost instantly a huge muscle in my back unclenched and I sank about 1/4" towards the floor.
It left me deeply curious: was I forgiving my mother, or letting go of a clenched muscle?
(Both)
posted by constraint at 12:17 AM on September 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
When I teach Gen Psych, the section on sleep and dreaming ends up being the favorite, every time. It's something so relevant and personal, yet at the same time, mysterious.
This newer research makes me think about the times with my daughter as a baby where a few days of changed sleep patterns almost always meant a major leap in bodily skill - crawling, walking, etc. I wonder if those were "brain learning the body" events.
posted by bizzyb at 5:13 AM on September 1, 2023
This newer research makes me think about the times with my daughter as a baby where a few days of changed sleep patterns almost always meant a major leap in bodily skill - crawling, walking, etc. I wonder if those were "brain learning the body" events.
posted by bizzyb at 5:13 AM on September 1, 2023
I think a lot about if my cat dreams. It would be a convenient excuse to explain her moodiness. "Well she just woke up from a dream where I was mean to her and she doesn't know that wasn't real."
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:40 AM on September 1, 2023
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:40 AM on September 1, 2023
As someone who doesn't dream, one thing I'm really tired of is people telling me that I do in fact dream, but that I just don't remember them. I just don't dream. I also cannot create visual pictures in my head, have never had a hangover, and can't seem to get high. No idea if these are connected but they feel connected.
I have aphantasia -- it's extremely rare that I can picture things or even shapes/colors in "my mind's eye" when I'm awake. I also have a terrible sense of direction, difficulty following choreography instructions, and sometimes have to stop and remind myself which way west/east go in relation to north/south.
But I definitely dream in full IMAX.
(Also I had one monstrous hangover in my younger days and have avoided heavy drinking ever since, stopping at pleasantly tipsy.)
posted by Foosnark at 7:28 AM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have aphantasia -- it's extremely rare that I can picture things or even shapes/colors in "my mind's eye" when I'm awake. I also have a terrible sense of direction, difficulty following choreography instructions, and sometimes have to stop and remind myself which way west/east go in relation to north/south.
But I definitely dream in full IMAX.
(Also I had one monstrous hangover in my younger days and have avoided heavy drinking ever since, stopping at pleasantly tipsy.)
posted by Foosnark at 7:28 AM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I got given Dormicum as an anaesthetic during wisdom teeth surgery and it was UNNERVING. It was literally a blink - I cracked up (for some reason) and one blink later an hour had passed and I had gauze in my mouth.
That's what Propofol was like for me when I got a colonoscopy. They injected it into my hand, told me it might ache, it ached a lot (which is common), and I laid there, waiting to fall asleep or whatever. Finally I asked "am I supposed to be asleep at this point?" and a nurse said "It's all over." I was back in the recovery area with the procedure completed. It was completely seamless, like a really good film splice. And, most strangely, no aftereffects.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:41 AM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
That's what Propofol was like for me when I got a colonoscopy. They injected it into my hand, told me it might ache, it ached a lot (which is common), and I laid there, waiting to fall asleep or whatever. Finally I asked "am I supposed to be asleep at this point?" and a nurse said "It's all over." I was back in the recovery area with the procedure completed. It was completely seamless, like a really good film splice. And, most strangely, no aftereffects.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:41 AM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I understand sleep to be a cyclic process, where one passes through a "REM" state into a "deep sleep" and back into the REM state several times a night.
Sitting at my desk, I often drift into what can be described as a REM state, but I don't often actually "fall asleep." I guess this is what's called "daydreaming." These daydreams affect me the same way dreaming affects me, in that I have a hard time remembering them, or, if I do remember them, accounting for their content.
The daydreams differ in being snippets rather than narratives. They are vivid scenes, whereas my other dreams are in various ways plotted. The daydreams also come with a specific POV, the omniscient narrator, and I never feel any emotional investment in the images. In "real" dreams, an (often intense) emotional background is always in play. Oddly, real dreams are sometimes furnished with sounds and aromas.
Images during the daydreams always involve characters I don't know, whereas real dreams usually are populated by people I know--at least I know them in the dream. In real dreams people I know don't always look like who they are in real life.
Gefte's citation of P.K. Dick's story is a dangerous dip into murky waters. We may discover that the thing that goes bump in the night is only ourselves trying to find our way to the toilet. Should this be the case, then good luck trying to get our AIs to follow Asimov's rules for robots.
posted by mule98J at 8:21 AM on September 1, 2023
Sitting at my desk, I often drift into what can be described as a REM state, but I don't often actually "fall asleep." I guess this is what's called "daydreaming." These daydreams affect me the same way dreaming affects me, in that I have a hard time remembering them, or, if I do remember them, accounting for their content.
The daydreams differ in being snippets rather than narratives. They are vivid scenes, whereas my other dreams are in various ways plotted. The daydreams also come with a specific POV, the omniscient narrator, and I never feel any emotional investment in the images. In "real" dreams, an (often intense) emotional background is always in play. Oddly, real dreams are sometimes furnished with sounds and aromas.
Images during the daydreams always involve characters I don't know, whereas real dreams usually are populated by people I know--at least I know them in the dream. In real dreams people I know don't always look like who they are in real life.
Gefte's citation of P.K. Dick's story is a dangerous dip into murky waters. We may discover that the thing that goes bump in the night is only ourselves trying to find our way to the toilet. Should this be the case, then good luck trying to get our AIs to follow Asimov's rules for robots.
posted by mule98J at 8:21 AM on September 1, 2023
I was in the Hospital last year. And after the Surgery they gave me Oxicodone for pain. The first thing I ever took that altered how I think. Different thoughts and different dreams (not good ones). Very weird. Told them to forget the pain killer and I'd deal with it.
posted by aleph at 8:32 AM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by aleph at 8:32 AM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'd believe this only because there is the tale in my family of my older brother dreaming he could ride a bike... and riding a bike the next day! -- posted by Grandysaur at 8:40 PM on August 31
Hate to break it to you - but that was just a dream.
posted by symbioid at 9:22 AM on September 1, 2023
Hate to break it to you - but that was just a dream.
posted by symbioid at 9:22 AM on September 1, 2023
So…in dreams begin response abilities, is my takeaway
posted by newmoistness at 9:44 AM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by newmoistness at 9:44 AM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I definitely believe that one can consolidate physical learning in dreams. You know that thing where you cup your two hands together and blow into (actually down across, but it looks like into) your thumbs and make a hooting / whistling noise? I had tried to do that for weeks, for months, possibly even for years off and on, and no sound came out.
Then I dreamt that I was doing it.
Then I woke up, tried again, and sound came out. Success! Now I'm pretty good at it, better than average.
Also my subconscious has a kickass horn section, but I rarely manage to bring that into my waking life.
posted by inexorably_forward at 3:59 AM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Then I dreamt that I was doing it.
Then I woke up, tried again, and sound came out. Success! Now I'm pretty good at it, better than average.
Also my subconscious has a kickass horn section, but I rarely manage to bring that into my waking life.
posted by inexorably_forward at 3:59 AM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also my subconscious has a kickass horn section
That happened to me once, I dreamed a gorgeous stage-band arrangement of George Harrison's "Something" - soft sonorous trombones, complex harmonies, swelling and falling sections, the whole lot. But I had (and have) no arrangement skills, and now it's nothing but a faint memory of it having occurred.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:12 PM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
That happened to me once, I dreamed a gorgeous stage-band arrangement of George Harrison's "Something" - soft sonorous trombones, complex harmonies, swelling and falling sections, the whole lot. But I had (and have) no arrangement skills, and now it's nothing but a faint memory of it having occurred.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:12 PM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
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I have REM sleep disorder (mentioned in article) and wonder what that means re my body attempting to communicate with my brain. I take a large dose of melatonin every night so I don,t punch my husband and kick the dresser. Is the problem in my body or my brain?
posted by supermedusa at 5:37 PM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]