The size of the bet up against the size of the market seems irrational
October 2, 2023 6:14 AM Subscribe
The pool of podcast listeners is growing, but the flood of shows on various streaming platforms makes it tough to break new hits. Facing competition across genres and formats, Spotify found that exclusive podcasts generally don’t draw subscribers away from its rivals. Podcast costs at the company rose €29 million in the first half of this year. from Spotify’s $1 Billion Podcast Bet Turns Into a Serial Drama [WSJ; ungated]
Spotify & Gimlet previously
Spotify & Gimlet previously
I have no idea how the podcast economy as a whole works. The popular podcasts I listen to have advertising but most of the ads are for other podcasts so someone is losing money.
There just are not enough listeners to sustain a huge podcast industry. Perhaps if you literally capture your audience (like Spotify tried to do) you could squeeze out profits but as it is you are going to be competing against 2 guys in a basement earning $23 a month on Patreon.
posted by AndrewStephens at 6:47 AM on October 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
There just are not enough listeners to sustain a huge podcast industry. Perhaps if you literally capture your audience (like Spotify tried to do) you could squeeze out profits but as it is you are going to be competing against 2 guys in a basement earning $23 a month on Patreon.
posted by AndrewStephens at 6:47 AM on October 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
Spotify seems to have overestimated the marketing budgets of DTC mattress companies, box meal subscriptions, VPNs and Raid Shadow Legends. The real winner in podcast monetization is Patreon.
posted by interogative mood at 7:02 AM on October 2, 2023 [28 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 7:02 AM on October 2, 2023 [28 favorites]
Speaking as a former Spotify customer who dropped them like a hot potato when I found out how much they were paying Joe Rogan and other podcasters I would never in a million years listen to (and also how little they were paying the musical artists I was listening to), I'm overjoyed that they're apparently taking a bath on their attempt to capture and own the podcast space for themselves.
I've been listening to podcasts before I even owned a portable mp3 player, and the notion that any one company (Spotify, Stitcher, Slacker, and so on) could come along and turn an eminently open technology like good ol' RSS-with-enclosures into a proprietary thing that you need to subscribe to a special paid service for always seemed laughable to me.
I'm happy to pay my favorite podcasters more or less directly, whether that's via Patreon (or some other online platform) or by supporting independently-owned podcast networks like Maximum Fun. In my experience those seem to be a far more sustainable format for both listeners and podcasters.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:09 AM on October 2, 2023 [23 favorites]
I've been listening to podcasts before I even owned a portable mp3 player, and the notion that any one company (Spotify, Stitcher, Slacker, and so on) could come along and turn an eminently open technology like good ol' RSS-with-enclosures into a proprietary thing that you need to subscribe to a special paid service for always seemed laughable to me.
I'm happy to pay my favorite podcasters more or less directly, whether that's via Patreon (or some other online platform) or by supporting independently-owned podcast networks like Maximum Fun. In my experience those seem to be a far more sustainable format for both listeners and podcasters.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:09 AM on October 2, 2023 [23 favorites]
According to research, the average podcast listener eats 6 nutritious and easy to prepare meals a day while sleeping on a pile of mattresses 4 high. They need that sleep because they spend their days making Squarespace sites over multiple VPNs. Then, in the evenings, they call various mental health hotlines to get help for their crippling addiction to sports betting before winding down by listening to eight hours of true crime.
posted by AndrewStephens at 7:14 AM on October 2, 2023 [78 favorites]
posted by AndrewStephens at 7:14 AM on October 2, 2023 [78 favorites]
So, I'm a bit of an outlier, since I mostly listen to horror audio dramas (you may have seen my FPPs in years past). In my experience, the bigger budget an audio drama has, the less likely it's going to sustain my interest. They are often flat and predictable, despite having better voice acting and sound values (in most cases). Give me a small group, funded on Patreon of Ko-Fi, who really want to tell their story. Of course, you risk the series just stopping as they run out of money and enthusiasm, suffer from break-ups or graduate into full-time jobs that leaves out the possibility of spending 20 hours a week editing. Of course, more "professional" audio drams get cancelled for not generating enough income or, worse, sell their work to Netflix to get cancelled randomly.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:17 AM on October 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:17 AM on October 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
There must be some research on the average lifespan of a True Crime podcast. There seem to be like 100,000 of them at any given moment, and there can't be that many listeners to anything but the most popular.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:19 AM on October 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:19 AM on October 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
The only podcasts I'm interested in listening to are the ones I can download as MP3s.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:20 AM on October 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:20 AM on October 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
Cool Zone Media, the constellation of podcasts around Robert Evans’ Behind the Bastards and other leftist history and journalism shows, is owned by iHeart (formerly Clear Channel), but it’s the one subscription I pay for because I listen to most of the shows anyway and the ads were the most annoying. I’m not sure how much my money is a signal to the corporate overlords not to cancel my stories, and how much it’s showing them that paid subscriptions is viable and they should try and walk in free podcasts.
I have missed trying to read the tea leaves of podcast economics by noting the fraction of my ads for mattresses and meal kits vs. boner pills and gold coins vs. other podcasts. Then for a while I was getting ads about platforms to start one’s own monetized podcast, but those seem to have gone away.
posted by Jon_Evil at 7:24 AM on October 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
I have missed trying to read the tea leaves of podcast economics by noting the fraction of my ads for mattresses and meal kits vs. boner pills and gold coins vs. other podcasts. Then for a while I was getting ads about platforms to start one’s own monetized podcast, but those seem to have gone away.
posted by Jon_Evil at 7:24 AM on October 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Most of the podcasts I like these days are ad-free because they are so small, no one is offering them ads (and believe me, the hosts would take ad money because their jobs don't pay them enough). Podcasts have rapidly become like TV shows and movies to me in that there is so much out there, and new stuff is coming out all the time, that I end up in decision paralysis. So I stick to the ones I love best, even if my favourite is on indeterminate hiatus and I am so sad.
posted by Kitteh at 7:44 AM on October 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 7:44 AM on October 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
On small podcasts, I’ll listen to ads, since they are usually about other podcasts with similar themes. Larger podcasts’ ads are never relevant; if I am listening to
A horror podcast, I don’t know why you’d try to sell me on a podcast about two sassy women talking about dogs and children (which might be very good, but it has no relation to what I just finished) much less business solutions. It’s bewildering.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:53 AM on October 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
A horror podcast, I don’t know why you’d try to sell me on a podcast about two sassy women talking about dogs and children (which might be very good, but it has no relation to what I just finished) much less business solutions. It’s bewildering.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:53 AM on October 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
What are everyone's favorite non-spotify or otherwise-independent podcasts?
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:07 AM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:07 AM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Dirty Little Horror (whose hiatus is making me sad), New World Witchery (folklore and magic!), and The Cannabis Potcast (Canada-based and the host is one of those old school stoners whose voice is very comforting).
posted by Kitteh at 8:14 AM on October 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:14 AM on October 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I’m a fan of Remap Radio, born from the ashes of the now-shuddered Vice vertical Waypoint’s podcast team. Leftist video game podcast built on a foundation of Foucault references, inside jokes, and a love of Dragon’s Dogma. Can’t recommend it enough.
posted by sigma7 at 8:15 AM on October 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by sigma7 at 8:15 AM on October 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
There must be some research on the average lifespan of a True Crime podcast. There seem to be like 100,000 of them at any given moment, and there can't be that many listeners to anything but the most popular.
My theory is that a lot of them are getting churned out by Parcast Media, which is the most cynical attempt to make play-by-numbers dull-as-dirt true crime content I think I've ever seen. Awful stuff. (Parcast is, of course, now owned by Spotify.) Good true crime requires serious legwork and journalistic inquiry, as well as an understanding of how to assess sources that are less than trustworthy; most of the pablum out there does not do that in the slightest.
Count me in with the folks who prefer to pay their favorite podcasts directly or through presenter-owned co-ops/label outfits like Max Fun or Rusty Quill. I'd consider paying Cool Zone Media if they'd break from iHeartRadio, whose acquisition of the HowStuffWorks network is a blight on the industry. (Actually, everything about iHeart is a blight and always has been.)
posted by sciatrix at 8:28 AM on October 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
My theory is that a lot of them are getting churned out by Parcast Media, which is the most cynical attempt to make play-by-numbers dull-as-dirt true crime content I think I've ever seen. Awful stuff. (Parcast is, of course, now owned by Spotify.) Good true crime requires serious legwork and journalistic inquiry, as well as an understanding of how to assess sources that are less than trustworthy; most of the pablum out there does not do that in the slightest.
Count me in with the folks who prefer to pay their favorite podcasts directly or through presenter-owned co-ops/label outfits like Max Fun or Rusty Quill. I'd consider paying Cool Zone Media if they'd break from iHeartRadio, whose acquisition of the HowStuffWorks network is a blight on the industry. (Actually, everything about iHeart is a blight and always has been.)
posted by sciatrix at 8:28 AM on October 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
re: podcast recs, for narrative horror my favorite regular listen right now is Old Gods of Appalachia; for nonfiction true crime, if What Did You Do?! updated more regularly they'd be my first rec for anything; for complicated historical figures, Bad Gays is underrated and very much worth investigating.
posted by sciatrix at 8:35 AM on October 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 8:35 AM on October 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
Spotify found that exclusive podcasts generally don’t draw subscribers away from its rivals.
Cool, they should probably fire Joe Rogan then.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:48 AM on October 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
Cool, they should probably fire Joe Rogan then.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:48 AM on October 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
Glad to see that the podcast industry remains resistant to capture. It's really nice that there's still an ecosystem where a thing can be a modest success, and that's good enough for it to keep going.
It could probably still be captured, just not from the producer end. If Apple decided to pull a similar move, they could do a lot more to choke out the independents.
posted by echo target at 9:11 AM on October 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
It could probably still be captured, just not from the producer end. If Apple decided to pull a similar move, they could do a lot more to choke out the independents.
posted by echo target at 9:11 AM on October 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
My extremely anecdotal evidence supports the idea that advertising-supported podcasts aren't a sustainable business model.
Over ~15 years of podcast listening (!), the pods that have stood the test of time have generally been:
As for podcast recommendations -- my current listening revolves around a weird mix of computing (Oxide and Friends, the Computer Architecture podcast, occasionally IEEE's Software Engineering Radio); national security (the Lawfare podcast, Rational Security, Arms Control Wonk); and kink (the Dildorks, Ask a Sub). I generally avoid true crime and fiction podcasts, which might be why I hear so few ads. :-)
posted by learning from frequent failure at 9:22 AM on October 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Over ~15 years of podcast listening (!), the pods that have stood the test of time have generally been:
- Produced as a by-product of a larger organization that gets funding elsewhere
- Produced as a hobby or side hustle by people who have day jobs
- Directly listener-supported, either via Patreon or some other donation mechanism
As for podcast recommendations -- my current listening revolves around a weird mix of computing (Oxide and Friends, the Computer Architecture podcast, occasionally IEEE's Software Engineering Radio); national security (the Lawfare podcast, Rational Security, Arms Control Wonk); and kink (the Dildorks, Ask a Sub). I generally avoid true crime and fiction podcasts, which might be why I hear so few ads. :-)
posted by learning from frequent failure at 9:22 AM on October 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
What are everyone's favorite non-spotify or otherwise-independent podcasts?
Apocrypals: "A podcast where two non-believers read through the Bible but try not to be jerks about it" (featuring Benito Cereno, subject of an FPP a few days ago for his annual Halloween horror movie list).
Blowback: "A podcast about the American Empire". After covering the Iraq War, the Cuban Revolution, and the Korean War they're now on the Afghanistan debacle.
The Devil's Party: Readings and analyses of Milton's Paradise Lost, Paradise Regained, the Gospel of Mark, and now the Gospel of John by queer comics author and literature PhD Anthony Oliveira.
If Books Could Kill: Michael Hobbes (formerly of You're Wrong About) and Peter Shamshiri dissect bullshit pop-sci books like Freakonomics.
Mangasplaining: "A podcast that recommends great manga to folks who haven't read much manga before!" The four hosts are three people working in various aspects of the manga industry + Chip Zdarsky (current writer of Batman and writer of many other mainstream US comics) who is the ostensible "newbie" to whom the others are explaining.
My Marvelous Year: Reading club going through a curated selection of Marvel comics from the 60s to today.
The Siècle: History podcast about France 1814-1914.
Talking Simpsons & What A Cartoon: Deep episode-by-episode chronological dive into The Simpsons/same thing but animation in general.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:30 AM on October 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
Apocrypals: "A podcast where two non-believers read through the Bible but try not to be jerks about it" (featuring Benito Cereno, subject of an FPP a few days ago for his annual Halloween horror movie list).
Blowback: "A podcast about the American Empire". After covering the Iraq War, the Cuban Revolution, and the Korean War they're now on the Afghanistan debacle.
The Devil's Party: Readings and analyses of Milton's Paradise Lost, Paradise Regained, the Gospel of Mark, and now the Gospel of John by queer comics author and literature PhD Anthony Oliveira.
If Books Could Kill: Michael Hobbes (formerly of You're Wrong About) and Peter Shamshiri dissect bullshit pop-sci books like Freakonomics.
Mangasplaining: "A podcast that recommends great manga to folks who haven't read much manga before!" The four hosts are three people working in various aspects of the manga industry + Chip Zdarsky (current writer of Batman and writer of many other mainstream US comics) who is the ostensible "newbie" to whom the others are explaining.
My Marvelous Year: Reading club going through a curated selection of Marvel comics from the 60s to today.
The Siècle: History podcast about France 1814-1914.
Talking Simpsons & What A Cartoon: Deep episode-by-episode chronological dive into The Simpsons/same thing but animation in general.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:30 AM on October 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
I used to listen to a ton of podcasts but then I went on vacation for a few weeks and came back to hundreds of hours of unlistened to podcasts and just said screw it and stopped altogether. I've since started listening to a few if they have a guest I like but in general it just became too overwhelming.
posted by downtohisturtles at 9:30 AM on October 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 9:30 AM on October 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
The only podcasts I'm interested in listening to are the ones I can download as MP3s.
Seconding this - it started because I'm kind of an IT unfrozen caveman, but is now continuing because I'm hording them in anticipation of the market collapsing.
posted by ryanshepard at 9:33 AM on October 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Seconding this - it started because I'm kind of an IT unfrozen caveman, but is now continuing because I'm hording them in anticipation of the market collapsing.
posted by ryanshepard at 9:33 AM on October 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
What are everyone's favorite non-spotify or otherwise-independent podcasts?
I will direct you to almost my entire posting history. Go wild.
I’m kind of poking at a new weird podcast round-up, but I’ve been very discouraged lately at starting anything.
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:52 AM on October 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I will direct you to almost my entire posting history. Go wild.
I’m kind of poking at a new weird podcast round-up, but I’ve been very discouraged lately at starting anything.
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:52 AM on October 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I live in the Netherlands and some of the podcasts I listen to have regional ads and oh god the Dutch ad market has not figured out how to target podcast listeners yet. So I'll be listening to some calming obscure queens of the middle ages podcast AND SUDDENLY IT'S LOUD FAST DUTCH MORNING RADIO/SPORTS ANNOUNCER VOICE CUTTING IN TO TELL ME I don't know what because I hit the skip button with a blinding speed powered by the unwanted rush of adrenaline and annoyance.
Anywho, I can wholehearted recommend:
- This Week in Virology's weekly Clinical Update episodes
- History Hit if you're a history buff
- Maintenance Phase for pillorying of fad diets
- If Books Could Kill for alllllll the snark
- Damn Interesting, because it is
- On the Media
- Pop Culture Happy Hour
and my newest discovery:
- Get Sleepy, which has content that is just interesting enough that it keeps your brain listening rather than ruminating on that dreadful thing it wants to keep you awake with, but told with enough bland details and by people the voices of energy vampires that I drift off within the first 10 minutes. I think I never will know the full story of how the Rosetta Stone was discovered.
posted by antinomia at 10:12 AM on October 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Anywho, I can wholehearted recommend:
- This Week in Virology's weekly Clinical Update episodes
- History Hit if you're a history buff
- Maintenance Phase for pillorying of fad diets
- If Books Could Kill for alllllll the snark
- Damn Interesting, because it is
- On the Media
- Pop Culture Happy Hour
and my newest discovery:
- Get Sleepy, which has content that is just interesting enough that it keeps your brain listening rather than ruminating on that dreadful thing it wants to keep you awake with, but told with enough bland details and by people the voices of energy vampires that I drift off within the first 10 minutes. I think I never will know the full story of how the Rosetta Stone was discovered.
posted by antinomia at 10:12 AM on October 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
So I'll be listening to some calming obscure queens of the middle ages podcast AND SUDDENLY IT'S LOUD FAST DUTCH MORNING RADIO/SPORTS ANNOUNCER VOICE CUTTING IN TO TELL ME I don't know what because I hit the skip button with a blinding speed powered by the unwanted rush of adrenaline and annoyance.
I've noticed this happening with most podcasts over the past couple years. Perhaps up until 5 years ago, the vast majority of ads would be read by either the podcast host or someone affiliated with the podcast and usually match the tone of the rest of the show. But then there was a change and gradually more and more podcasts have ads that would sound right at home on regular radio: annoying voices, fast talking, loud noises, selling something other than VPNs/mattresses/sherri'sberries/etc. Reply All was one where the change was very noticeable and apropos to the FPP; when they started, they said ads would always be read by the hosts and have special ad-background music so you knew it was an ad and the ad breaks were always tastefully placed in the episode. Then Gimlet was acquired and the ad breaks seemed to come at random in an episode, didn't have the special ad-background music, and suddenly had all sorts of different voices (mostly annoying voices like you'd hear in normal radio ads)/volumes/noises/etc.
I think I first noticed the degradation of ads with ClearChannel's (ahem, I mean, IHeartRadio) ever expanding podcast empire, but then it infected all other sorts of podcasts. Decoder Ring had a period when there were frequent ads for Bush's Baked Beans, and that seemed strange and out of place. Then there seemed to be a major development in podcast ad technology so some podcasts started having regional or time-based ads connected to where or when I downloaded or streamed the podcast, so I'd get ads for a labor day used car sale at some dealership near the airport where I downloaded an episode before a plane ride. (and opposite of that, for some reason Pandora would ever only serve me ads based on where I was when I opened my account 12 or 15 years ago, so even though I've moved several times and for a while lived abroad, I would always have ads from central Montana).
Anyway, the 30-second skip ahead button remains one of the most-used features of my podcast app.
posted by msbrauer at 10:37 AM on October 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
I've noticed this happening with most podcasts over the past couple years. Perhaps up until 5 years ago, the vast majority of ads would be read by either the podcast host or someone affiliated with the podcast and usually match the tone of the rest of the show. But then there was a change and gradually more and more podcasts have ads that would sound right at home on regular radio: annoying voices, fast talking, loud noises, selling something other than VPNs/mattresses/sherri'sberries/etc. Reply All was one where the change was very noticeable and apropos to the FPP; when they started, they said ads would always be read by the hosts and have special ad-background music so you knew it was an ad and the ad breaks were always tastefully placed in the episode. Then Gimlet was acquired and the ad breaks seemed to come at random in an episode, didn't have the special ad-background music, and suddenly had all sorts of different voices (mostly annoying voices like you'd hear in normal radio ads)/volumes/noises/etc.
I think I first noticed the degradation of ads with ClearChannel's (ahem, I mean, IHeartRadio) ever expanding podcast empire, but then it infected all other sorts of podcasts. Decoder Ring had a period when there were frequent ads for Bush's Baked Beans, and that seemed strange and out of place. Then there seemed to be a major development in podcast ad technology so some podcasts started having regional or time-based ads connected to where or when I downloaded or streamed the podcast, so I'd get ads for a labor day used car sale at some dealership near the airport where I downloaded an episode before a plane ride. (and opposite of that, for some reason Pandora would ever only serve me ads based on where I was when I opened my account 12 or 15 years ago, so even though I've moved several times and for a while lived abroad, I would always have ads from central Montana).
Anyway, the 30-second skip ahead button remains one of the most-used features of my podcast app.
posted by msbrauer at 10:37 AM on October 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
the notion that any one company (Spotify, Stitcher, Slacker, and so on) could come along and turn an eminently open technology like good ol' RSS-with-enclosures into a proprietary thing that you need to subscribe to a special paid service for always seemed laughable to me.
One thing I loathe is the podcast companies that do a version of this by polluting one show's feed with episodes of another show. I think it's Wondery that's most guilty of this in my listening, but others do it too. I subscribe to a feed because I want that show. If they want to advertise another show, it should be an ad in a regular episode of the show, not a separate episode in an unrelated feed.
And heaven forfend if you're subscribed to a few Wondery shows; you'll get 4 separate entries of the same "Introducing: [new unrelated show]" in your feed, one for each Wondery show feed to which you're subscribed.
The feed must be respected!
posted by msbrauer at 10:46 AM on October 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
One thing I loathe is the podcast companies that do a version of this by polluting one show's feed with episodes of another show. I think it's Wondery that's most guilty of this in my listening, but others do it too. I subscribe to a feed because I want that show. If they want to advertise another show, it should be an ad in a regular episode of the show, not a separate episode in an unrelated feed.
And heaven forfend if you're subscribed to a few Wondery shows; you'll get 4 separate entries of the same "Introducing: [new unrelated show]" in your feed, one for each Wondery show feed to which you're subscribed.
The feed must be respected!
posted by msbrauer at 10:46 AM on October 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
On the subject of podcast ads, there drama over money. From Bloomberg: A Fight Over Missing Ad Money Roils the Podcast Industry
posted by riruro at 11:04 AM on October 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by riruro at 11:04 AM on October 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Talking Simpsons & What A Cartoon: Deep episode-by-episode chronological dive into The Simpsons/same thing but animation in general.
On a similar note (in that they've adapted the format), I really love Gayest Episode Ever, which features deep dives into episodes of classic sitcoms with queer (or queer-adjacent) themes.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:14 AM on October 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
On a similar note (in that they've adapted the format), I really love Gayest Episode Ever, which features deep dives into episodes of classic sitcoms with queer (or queer-adjacent) themes.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:14 AM on October 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm happy to pay my favorite podcasters more or less directly, whether that's via Patreon (or some other online platform) or by supporting independently-owned podcast networks like Maximum Fun. In my experience those seem to be a far more sustainable format for both listeners and podcasters.
Agreed with this and other, similar sentiments.
Podcasts are a viable business if you can keep your costs low i.e. you have the hosts, a producer, all probably part time, and that's it OR for mega-succesfull behemoths with millions of loyal listeners. Spotify seems to have based their business model on having many, many, Rogan-sized podcasts but most podcasts just can never pay for that kind of overhead.
The fact that distribution costs are low and overheads low means that there is space for even really small podcasts to be viable enough to support their creators but there just isn't enough juice in the orange for VC style returns and that should be obvious.
I listen to... a lot of podcasts. 19 separate podcasts on the topic of energy and climate change alone, although not every episode of each and with a lot of skipping. I'm not going to bore people with that list.
I also listen to:
-My two favourite centrist consensus dads (The Rest is Politics) and their Leading interview podcast - UK politics
-All the non-Covid episodes of TWIV (I'm not a clinician and I'm bored of Coronoviridae content now thx)
-NRC Haagse Zaken (Dutch politics)
-De Stemming van Vullings en van der Wulp (ditto)
-The Enormocast (climbing)
-Aufhebunga Bunga (rather less centrist UK politics) this one I actually pay for on Patreon
-The History of England
-Immune
-Literature and History
-The Dirtbag Diaries
-The History of Egypt
-Not so Standard Deviations
-The Alpinist
-Arms Control Wonk
-Omega Tau English and German
-Jordan Jesse Go
-Cal Newport's podcast
It's a lot, folks. 36 podcasts. I have a toddler that requires 2+ hours a day of walking in his buggy in order to nap so I have 15+ hours of outdoor walking a week for podcasts to fill.
posted by atrazine at 11:19 AM on October 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Agreed with this and other, similar sentiments.
Podcasts are a viable business if you can keep your costs low i.e. you have the hosts, a producer, all probably part time, and that's it OR for mega-succesfull behemoths with millions of loyal listeners. Spotify seems to have based their business model on having many, many, Rogan-sized podcasts but most podcasts just can never pay for that kind of overhead.
The fact that distribution costs are low and overheads low means that there is space for even really small podcasts to be viable enough to support their creators but there just isn't enough juice in the orange for VC style returns and that should be obvious.
I listen to... a lot of podcasts. 19 separate podcasts on the topic of energy and climate change alone, although not every episode of each and with a lot of skipping. I'm not going to bore people with that list.
I also listen to:
-My two favourite centrist consensus dads (The Rest is Politics) and their Leading interview podcast - UK politics
-All the non-Covid episodes of TWIV (I'm not a clinician and I'm bored of Coronoviridae content now thx)
-NRC Haagse Zaken (Dutch politics)
-De Stemming van Vullings en van der Wulp (ditto)
-The Enormocast (climbing)
-Aufhebunga Bunga (rather less centrist UK politics) this one I actually pay for on Patreon
-The History of England
-Immune
-Literature and History
-The Dirtbag Diaries
-The History of Egypt
-Not so Standard Deviations
-The Alpinist
-Arms Control Wonk
-Omega Tau English and German
-Jordan Jesse Go
-Cal Newport's podcast
It's a lot, folks. 36 podcasts. I have a toddler that requires 2+ hours a day of walking in his buggy in order to nap so I have 15+ hours of outdoor walking a week for podcasts to fill.
posted by atrazine at 11:19 AM on October 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
I’m kind of poking at a new weird podcast round-up, but I’ve been very discouraged lately at starting anything.
GenjiandProust, I adore those posts and learn a lot from them. Please consider this one vote for your next!
posted by doctornemo at 12:13 PM on October 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
GenjiandProust, I adore those posts and learn a lot from them. Please consider this one vote for your next!
posted by doctornemo at 12:13 PM on October 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
mega-succesfull behemoths with millions of loyal listeners
I don’t think you need millions. If you have 200,000 regular listeners and can convert 5% of them to $5 patreon supporters, you have a good business.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:23 PM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don’t think you need millions. If you have 200,000 regular listeners and can convert 5% of them to $5 patreon supporters, you have a good business.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:23 PM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well, There’s Your Problem is a podcast about engineering disasters. Its real home is on youtube where the podcast is done as a slideshow. The main thrust is that engineering cannot be separated from politics, and engineering disasters are caused by political failures as much as mechanical ones. It’s the only parasocial (i.e. hosts are a friend group that talks bullshit and has in-jokes) podcast I can tolerate, because they’re funny and their leftist politics are grounded in being happy in a society rather than getting into the weeds on theory.
posted by Jon_Evil at 12:34 PM on October 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 12:34 PM on October 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
At the time, Gimlet shows typically cost $75,000 to $250,000 an episode
Pfft, I can buy Unisom for a fraction of that.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 12:52 PM on October 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Pfft, I can buy Unisom for a fraction of that.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 12:52 PM on October 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
This almost makes me happy that my attention span is too terrible to be a regular podcast listener, though that sentence is very much "I don't even own a television", so sorry about that. I wish I could listen to podcasts! But not on Spotify because then they try to bury music stuff under podcasts and think I want nothing but podcasts all day every day and have you seen our new podcast???? I made that mistake *once* years ago and they always tell me about the new episodes of their garbage.
When I do listen to podcasts, I listen to You're Wrong About (because I am basic like that) and The War on Cars. This post made me remember that there was a problem with my payments on Patreon a while back and I hadn't fixed my subscription to either them since that time so I went and did that. I just use the Apple podcast app to listen, even though I kind of hate it.
posted by urbanlenny at 1:47 PM on October 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
When I do listen to podcasts, I listen to You're Wrong About (because I am basic like that) and The War on Cars. This post made me remember that there was a problem with my payments on Patreon a while back and I hadn't fixed my subscription to either them since that time so I went and did that. I just use the Apple podcast app to listen, even though I kind of hate it.
posted by urbanlenny at 1:47 PM on October 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
> The only podcasts I'm interested in listening to are the ones I can download as MP3s.
yes, precisely. i quoted it and now i'll say it again:
the only podcasts i will ever listen to are downloads of mp3s (or whatever other open audio format rules the day)
posted by glonous keming at 2:05 PM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
yes, precisely. i quoted it and now i'll say it again:
the only podcasts i will ever listen to are downloads of mp3s (or whatever other open audio format rules the day)
posted by glonous keming at 2:05 PM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
It could probably still be captured, just not from the producer end. If Apple decided to pull a similar move, they could do a lot more to choke out the independents.
Do you think Apple could kill all non-paying apps with RSS feed capabilities within their walled garden without pissing off users? Genuine question--I minimize my use of Apple as much as possible, but like. Sure there's less of us using RSS feeds these days for our reading material, but RSS is surprisingly foundational open source infrastructure, I thought.
posted by sciatrix at 3:22 PM on October 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Do you think Apple could kill all non-paying apps with RSS feed capabilities within their walled garden without pissing off users? Genuine question--I minimize my use of Apple as much as possible, but like. Sure there's less of us using RSS feeds these days for our reading material, but RSS is surprisingly foundational open source infrastructure, I thought.
posted by sciatrix at 3:22 PM on October 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
The BBC have started butchering the podcast version of In Our Time by inserting ads partway through. It is godawful.
posted by BungaDunga at 3:32 PM on October 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 3:32 PM on October 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
i think the way to kill RSS is to create an alternative format or platform that allows for better monetization (e.g. better adtracking)
posted by web5.0 at 4:08 PM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by web5.0 at 4:08 PM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Basically all my podcast listening is directly audience supported (Max Fun, or Patreon-supported shows like Old Gods of Appalachia), or affiliated with something like NPR. Even so, I've definitely noticed that there have been an awful lot of podcast ads on podcasts. Also, I still love Pop Culture Happy Hour, but yikes, there are a lot more ads now.
And not sure how this fits into the broader podcast ecosystem, but Maximum Fun is a worker owned cooperative now. This strikes me as a much more sustainable model than dumping millions or billions into podcasting and expecting enormous returns that the medium and the industry simply cannot support. It's an industry of niches, and it seems far more reasonable to nourish thousands of smaller podcasts with smaller, dedicated audiences that can support those podcast creators enough to make their podcast a modestly successful business or a modest side hustle, rather than expecting millions of listeners for an array of expensive to produce podcasts.
posted by yasaman at 5:26 PM on October 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
And not sure how this fits into the broader podcast ecosystem, but Maximum Fun is a worker owned cooperative now. This strikes me as a much more sustainable model than dumping millions or billions into podcasting and expecting enormous returns that the medium and the industry simply cannot support. It's an industry of niches, and it seems far more reasonable to nourish thousands of smaller podcasts with smaller, dedicated audiences that can support those podcast creators enough to make their podcast a modestly successful business or a modest side hustle, rather than expecting millions of listeners for an array of expensive to produce podcasts.
posted by yasaman at 5:26 PM on October 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
The thing that always strikes me as weird is that the standard subscriber rate for most of the independent-ish podcasts I listen to is $5/month. Like, I get that it's not that much, but it's still $60/year. You're just one podcast! If it was $30/year (I tell myself) I'd be subscribed to a lot more.
But maybe I'm just stingy?
posted by ropeladder at 7:25 PM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
But maybe I'm just stingy?
posted by ropeladder at 7:25 PM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ima just pop in here now to insert my periodic plug for A History of Rock Music in 500 songs. The host, Andrew Hickey, defines rock music in an expansive way, such that you will likely find music to appreciate even if “rock” is not your genre of choice. It’s dryly funny quite often, and it turns out popular music history is a great lens through which to view all kinds of broader social movements. Even the very lowest tier of patreon support gives you access to a massive trove of bonus episodes that flesh out the narrative. Based on Andrew’s own comments, I cannot see it ever accepting advertising of any kind. And it’s worth noting that Andrew has also stated numerous times, both on patreon updates and on Twitter before he abandoned it, that he does not recommend listening to his podcast through Spotify because they are minimally responsive to creators and slow to correct errors in the event that, say, there’s an audio glitch the first time an episode gets posted. I had already quit Spotify for Joe Rogan reasons before he made those comments, but if I hadn’t that might have sealed the deal for me.
posted by ActionPopulated at 9:07 PM on October 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ActionPopulated at 9:07 PM on October 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
atrazine: -Literature and History
Of all the podcasts I listen to (many mentioned here already, but let me shout out The Bugle and Kermode & Mayo’s Take) the one I feel most protective of is Literature and History. It’s such a remarkable undertaking, making lengthy episodes about often obscure but historically important books, and being clear and entertaining, that it’s just somewhat mindboggling that it’s all just one guy, Doug Metzger, who also has a day job. Every once in a while the listeners get little hints that it’s all a bit much, most recently there being long gaps between episodes while he had to deal with a family member’s health issues, but the quality has never suffered. I fear that he’ll just give up one day, and frankly, I wouldn’t blame him. And even then it would be a hell of an achievement.
posted by Kattullus at 1:40 AM on October 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Of all the podcasts I listen to (many mentioned here already, but let me shout out The Bugle and Kermode & Mayo’s Take) the one I feel most protective of is Literature and History. It’s such a remarkable undertaking, making lengthy episodes about often obscure but historically important books, and being clear and entertaining, that it’s just somewhat mindboggling that it’s all just one guy, Doug Metzger, who also has a day job. Every once in a while the listeners get little hints that it’s all a bit much, most recently there being long gaps between episodes while he had to deal with a family member’s health issues, but the quality has never suffered. I fear that he’ll just give up one day, and frankly, I wouldn’t blame him. And even then it would be a hell of an achievement.
posted by Kattullus at 1:40 AM on October 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don’t think you need millions. If you have 200,000 regular listeners and can convert 5% of them to $5 patreon supporters, you have a good business.
Oh for sure. My point is more that the "natural" size of a podcast is a successful lifestyle business / worker's co-op style thing (like MaxFun) that can support a small number of hands-on creators comfortably. Once you start sticking VC money in, which is indirectly what Spotify has done, you create a model that simply doesn't stack up.
The thing that always strikes me as weird is that the standard subscriber rate for most of the independent-ish podcasts I listen to is $5/month. Like, I get that it's not that much, but it's still $60/year. You're just one podcast! If it was $30/year (I tell myself) I'd be subscribed to a lot more.
Part of the reason is high fixed costs for recurring donations, unfortunately. One advantage of the MaxFun model is that if you listen to five of them (as I used to) then you can donate at a much more effective per-podcast level.
It can therefore make more sense to set the lowest tier at $5 and not receive donations from people would only have paid a max of $2.50 since creating a $2.50 tier will lead to a much higher proportion of donations going to fees and a proportion of what would have have been your $5 members will opt for the lower tier.
posted by atrazine at 4:08 AM on October 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Oh for sure. My point is more that the "natural" size of a podcast is a successful lifestyle business / worker's co-op style thing (like MaxFun) that can support a small number of hands-on creators comfortably. Once you start sticking VC money in, which is indirectly what Spotify has done, you create a model that simply doesn't stack up.
The thing that always strikes me as weird is that the standard subscriber rate for most of the independent-ish podcasts I listen to is $5/month. Like, I get that it's not that much, but it's still $60/year. You're just one podcast! If it was $30/year (I tell myself) I'd be subscribed to a lot more.
Part of the reason is high fixed costs for recurring donations, unfortunately. One advantage of the MaxFun model is that if you listen to five of them (as I used to) then you can donate at a much more effective per-podcast level.
It can therefore make more sense to set the lowest tier at $5 and not receive donations from people would only have paid a max of $2.50 since creating a $2.50 tier will lead to a much higher proportion of donations going to fees and a proportion of what would have have been your $5 members will opt for the lower tier.
posted by atrazine at 4:08 AM on October 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't really care much about the Spotify drama (because I ditched them during the pandemic when they kept advertising dog heartworm medicine to me in what seemed like an Ivermectin for Covid-19 kind of way) but the podcast world is yet another Google failure - they just now are killing Google Podcast and folding it into YouTube Music because everything Google does that works reasonably well (Google Podcast was an OK app) must be forced into something that doesn't (YouTube Music recommends me Dua Lipa and Elton John when I am fan of neither because payola is now legal)!
posted by srboisvert at 6:20 AM on October 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by srboisvert at 6:20 AM on October 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
See, this is what I learned from killing Google Reader in 2013. Never, ever, ever let yourself get attached to a Google app or process without a backup for when Google loses interest and axes it. It's a habit that has served me well this last ten years.
I'm still unreasonably attached to Google Scholar, which I have been hoping they've forgotten about entirely this whole time, but I have successfully avoided caring about anything else they launch in the intervening decade.
(By the way, Podcast Addict is my personal app of choice. Love it, especially if you don't need to synchronize listening with desktop, because its desktop client is kind of garbage. But as a no frills podcast and RSS aggregator for Android, it's great.)
posted by sciatrix at 6:35 AM on October 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm still unreasonably attached to Google Scholar, which I have been hoping they've forgotten about entirely this whole time, but I have successfully avoided caring about anything else they launch in the intervening decade.
(By the way, Podcast Addict is my personal app of choice. Love it, especially if you don't need to synchronize listening with desktop, because its desktop client is kind of garbage. But as a no frills podcast and RSS aggregator for Android, it's great.)
posted by sciatrix at 6:35 AM on October 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
See, this is what I learned from killing Google Reader in 2013.
SO YOU’RE THE ONE
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:13 AM on October 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
SO YOU’RE THE ONE
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:13 AM on October 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
from the killing! the killing! noooooooooooooooooo I'm innnoooceeeeent
posted by sciatrix at 10:30 AM on October 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 10:30 AM on October 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
If Spotify wanted a bigger slice of the podcast listener market, they should have made better controls/UX for listening to podcasts on Spotify.
posted by itesser at 10:47 AM on October 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by itesser at 10:47 AM on October 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
the only podcasts i will ever listen to are downloads of mp3s (or whatever other open audio format rules the day)
I feel like I'm missing something here.... Why? I've never had to interact with a podcast audio file directly; the app (I've used Apple podcasts, Overcast, and Downcast) handles them pretty transparently.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:54 PM on October 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I feel like I'm missing something here.... Why? I've never had to interact with a podcast audio file directly; the app (I've used Apple podcasts, Overcast, and Downcast) handles them pretty transparently.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:54 PM on October 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I feel like I'm missing something here.... Why? I've never had to interact with a podcast audio file directly; the app (I've used Apple podcasts, Overcast, and Downcast) handles them pretty transparently.I'm genuinely not trying to snark on you, but the answer is actually in your question : they are handled transparently because that is what the apps do - they download MP3 files referenced via RSS feeds.
posted by revmitcz at 12:01 AM on October 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Having always used podcast players, I think the distinction is the ability to download and host files (using an app) vs. having to stream them from inside a service. If an app I use (say, Overcast) doesn’t index a given podcast, I can hunt down the RSS feed (usually) and add it manually to my collection rather than being limited to what the service wants to provide. This is also helpful if you pay the creator directly, and they have a Patreon RSS feed or something.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:55 AM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:55 AM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
I feel like I'm missing something here.... Why? I've never had to interact with a podcast audio file directly; the app (I've used Apple podcasts, Overcast, and Downcast) handles them pretty transparently.
It's the "podcast" apps that aren't doing that- Spotify, BBC Sounds, etc- that are DRM monstrosities erecting walled gardens.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:41 PM on October 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's the "podcast" apps that aren't doing that- Spotify, BBC Sounds, etc- that are DRM monstrosities erecting walled gardens.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:41 PM on October 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
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