Biking the Goods - Adoption of E-Cargo Bikes in North America
October 18, 2023 10:29 AM Subscribe
Biking the Goods - A recent & approachable white paper out of the University of Washington's Urban Freight Lab, looking at the potential for cargo e-bikes to improve urban logistics systems & recommended policies to encourage their use. It looks at five case studies & six types of cargo e-bike to make the case for making them a part of city infrastructure in North America.
Interesting to see Amazon in the acknowledgements...
But something good for a change to see come out of Seattle.
Of course Glamazon will overload their e-bike delivery persons with 400 deliveries, and it does rain here a lot...
But in my everyday life, I now see more e-bikes in use than regular bikes, (the fancy "biker people" I only see in certain bike-trail-ish spots these days). We have plenty of hills here in Seattle. Owning an e-bike makes pretty good sense.
But we have all seen the issues with rent-seeking one time rental ventures, (Lime scooters and bikes, can't remember the name of all the failed uber-bike and such rental outfits). But their capital is everywhere lying around on the streets. Some regulation is needed for that shit.
And I have never rented one, (nor hired a lyft or uber, rode in one once I think), and I think this is a great boon for our carbon footprint, and congestion, and everything else relating to high-density urban settings. But these "disruptors" need to be regulated better.
(I have a bike. If I want to ride a bike, that is still in a different ballpark, as an older guy who has had a ton of physical issues this past year and still can't really, that is a physical/social experience, not a last-minute trip to get prescriptions before the pharmacy closes. OTOH, I likely have more solar panels than you, and our cars are all electric and blah blah blah, so I don't feel bad about driving much).
We always see pictures, or have seen, not being racist here, lots of countries where motorcycles and bikes are used to transport ridiculously large numbers of goods/people. It would be solid if those motorcycles were replaced with e-bikes...
It is such a great opportunity to do better. But...
Have you been in the American West? "Next Services 159 miles" On the Interstate...
America is vast. Lots of places are essentially empty. Since a lot of these places are beholden to fossil fuel extraction, well, good luck with that. (Check out Wyoming sometime, (TWO SENATORS!!)).
Sorry for the downer therapy session. Sometimes you just have to vent
posted by Windopaene at 11:11 AM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
But something good for a change to see come out of Seattle.
Of course Glamazon will overload their e-bike delivery persons with 400 deliveries, and it does rain here a lot...
But in my everyday life, I now see more e-bikes in use than regular bikes, (the fancy "biker people" I only see in certain bike-trail-ish spots these days). We have plenty of hills here in Seattle. Owning an e-bike makes pretty good sense.
But we have all seen the issues with rent-seeking one time rental ventures, (Lime scooters and bikes, can't remember the name of all the failed uber-bike and such rental outfits). But their capital is everywhere lying around on the streets. Some regulation is needed for that shit.
And I have never rented one, (nor hired a lyft or uber, rode in one once I think), and I think this is a great boon for our carbon footprint, and congestion, and everything else relating to high-density urban settings. But these "disruptors" need to be regulated better.
(I have a bike. If I want to ride a bike, that is still in a different ballpark, as an older guy who has had a ton of physical issues this past year and still can't really, that is a physical/social experience, not a last-minute trip to get prescriptions before the pharmacy closes. OTOH, I likely have more solar panels than you, and our cars are all electric and blah blah blah, so I don't feel bad about driving much).
We always see pictures, or have seen, not being racist here, lots of countries where motorcycles and bikes are used to transport ridiculously large numbers of goods/people. It would be solid if those motorcycles were replaced with e-bikes...
It is such a great opportunity to do better. But...
Have you been in the American West? "Next Services 159 miles" On the Interstate...
America is vast. Lots of places are essentially empty. Since a lot of these places are beholden to fossil fuel extraction, well, good luck with that. (Check out Wyoming sometime, (TWO SENATORS!!)).
Sorry for the downer therapy session. Sometimes you just have to vent
posted by Windopaene at 11:11 AM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
So, I've got an old-school, non-Bakfiets cargo bike - a Yuba Mundo, pre-electric - and no word of a lie, even without the battery assist it's a purely better SUV. Sure, you can be exposed to a bit of weather, but I can roll a whole costco run on it, never need to worry about parking, takes zero gas, I love it.
Fed-Ex rolls downtown with some big-front-box bikes too, and given the sorry state of traffic in Toronto I'm willing to bet they're a lot more effective than anyone but their internal accounting realizes. I'm near-certain that the future of urban logistics is going to be trucks that carry the big stuff and offload bins of everything smaller to box-bike couriers.
The only real downside here is that almost all the bike lanes in this city are approximately one Bakfiets wide, even where cars get three lanes. Once that changes, and it will, we'll really be rolling.
posted by mhoye at 11:29 AM on October 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Fed-Ex rolls downtown with some big-front-box bikes too, and given the sorry state of traffic in Toronto I'm willing to bet they're a lot more effective than anyone but their internal accounting realizes. I'm near-certain that the future of urban logistics is going to be trucks that carry the big stuff and offload bins of everything smaller to box-bike couriers.
The only real downside here is that almost all the bike lanes in this city are approximately one Bakfiets wide, even where cars get three lanes. Once that changes, and it will, we'll really be rolling.
posted by mhoye at 11:29 AM on October 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
I live in a town that offers subsidies for ebikes. I have two ebikes, one purchased before the subsidy applied and one purchased used so it didn't qualify, and it doesn't bother me one bit because I enjoy using them so much.
Running errands on them is their primary task. Both bikes would qualify as cargo ebikes according to that document (one iconic rad wagon and one affordable radrunner) although in both cases we got models with the goal of doubling up kids or adults on them. I'd say at least 1/3 of our rides have two people on them, and grocery runs are the most common errand we use them for. The cargo mounts are so much better than old handlebar baskets, things are very sturdy and it doesn't feel like you're balancing a pig over your shoulder.
Given our downtown (it's a small tourist town) turns to a standstill in the summer the ebikes have been a godsend, I often zip past two dozen idling cars. We live up a mountain which my wife refuses to bike up on a normal bike (I'll do it, but I sure break a sweat, especially with groceries on my back), but all hesitation disappears on the ebike and it becomes effortless.
The biggest take-away from the ebike is that everyone who uses it cracks a giant smile, and three years later I still crack that giant smile almost anytime I ride it. It's the ideal form of locomotion for any distance under 5km in decent weather, and still quite usable for longer jaunts.
Have you been in the American West? "Next Services 159 miles" On the Interstate...
Maybe you missed the subject of the paper, but it's literally how North American CITIES can prepare for and promote large-scale Adoption of cargo e-bikes.
posted by furtive at 11:39 AM on October 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
Running errands on them is their primary task. Both bikes would qualify as cargo ebikes according to that document (one iconic rad wagon and one affordable radrunner) although in both cases we got models with the goal of doubling up kids or adults on them. I'd say at least 1/3 of our rides have two people on them, and grocery runs are the most common errand we use them for. The cargo mounts are so much better than old handlebar baskets, things are very sturdy and it doesn't feel like you're balancing a pig over your shoulder.
Given our downtown (it's a small tourist town) turns to a standstill in the summer the ebikes have been a godsend, I often zip past two dozen idling cars. We live up a mountain which my wife refuses to bike up on a normal bike (I'll do it, but I sure break a sweat, especially with groceries on my back), but all hesitation disappears on the ebike and it becomes effortless.
The biggest take-away from the ebike is that everyone who uses it cracks a giant smile, and three years later I still crack that giant smile almost anytime I ride it. It's the ideal form of locomotion for any distance under 5km in decent weather, and still quite usable for longer jaunts.
Have you been in the American West? "Next Services 159 miles" On the Interstate...
Maybe you missed the subject of the paper, but it's literally how North American CITIES can prepare for and promote large-scale Adoption of cargo e-bikes.
posted by furtive at 11:39 AM on October 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
Thinking about cargo bikes always reminds me of that scene in Harriet the Spy where she rides in the grocery box and how much I wanted to do that.
posted by emjaybee at 11:51 AM on October 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 11:51 AM on October 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I picked up an older front loader Bullitt bike that is (lovingly) beat to hell and the previous owner retrofitted with a rear hub motor and battery. It is a fantastic vehicle, and has transformed how I operate in my city on the days when I don’t have to visit my office (and unfortunately long commute twice a week). I’m lucky to live somewhere with good bike infrastructure but man alive, even in areas where it’s not as robust I’ve never had issue, aside from the fact that it is slightly trickier to lock up than a regular bike, and takes up a lot of room at bike stalls. I have loved motorcycles and bikes in the past but this is the coolest most fun vehicle I’ve ever owned, and it’s primary duties are grocery shopping and taking my kid to soccer practice. It is hard to describe just how much fun they are.
For reference, my “grocery loop” for a family of three and two dogs is about 7 miles RT, and the bike comfortably takes on about 4-5 full grocery bags, a sack of dog food, a six pack or a couple handles of liquor, all spread between three to four stops. It does all of this almost exactly as fast as a car. I am not in amazing shape, but the e-assist helps so dramatically with hills and when the bike is under load.
It is the most perfect vehicle for human scale urban shit-haulin.
It’s fundamentally a different experience than using an unpowered bike, motorcycle or a car. It really is a different class, and I’m glad the paper advocates for developing a new class for such beasts.
posted by furnace.heart at 11:56 AM on October 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
For reference, my “grocery loop” for a family of three and two dogs is about 7 miles RT, and the bike comfortably takes on about 4-5 full grocery bags, a sack of dog food, a six pack or a couple handles of liquor, all spread between three to four stops. It does all of this almost exactly as fast as a car. I am not in amazing shape, but the e-assist helps so dramatically with hills and when the bike is under load.
It is the most perfect vehicle for human scale urban shit-haulin.
It’s fundamentally a different experience than using an unpowered bike, motorcycle or a car. It really is a different class, and I’m glad the paper advocates for developing a new class for such beasts.
posted by furnace.heart at 11:56 AM on October 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
re: Action 2.1, "Allow cargo e-bikes to park in load zones or other curb parking spaces", another possibility is a brilliant idea championed by Berlin's dearly missed former mobility commissioner Bettina Jarasch:
I'm a fan of dedicated cargo bike spots (ideally repurposed from car parking) too, but I'm most excited about proposals similar to Action 3.1, "Allow zoning variances and special-use permits for microhubs to be located in commercial and mixed-use zones". Kreuzberg Greens had a plan to turn an unused canal-side spot into such a hub which unfortunately ended up going nowhere, but the concept has legs. Er, wheels.
posted by daveliepmann at 12:19 PM on October 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
After Jan. 1, drivers will have to pay an extra euro ($1.05) per hour for street parking citywide, the new rules state. But two-wheeled vehicles (bikes, motorbikes and everything in between) can use these spaces for free — spaces that the public had hitherto largely assumed were reserved for motor vehicles.(Bloomberg)
I'm a fan of dedicated cargo bike spots (ideally repurposed from car parking) too, but I'm most excited about proposals similar to Action 3.1, "Allow zoning variances and special-use permits for microhubs to be located in commercial and mixed-use zones". Kreuzberg Greens had a plan to turn an unused canal-side spot into such a hub which unfortunately ended up going nowhere, but the concept has legs. Er, wheels.
posted by daveliepmann at 12:19 PM on October 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
I often contemplated a cargo bike as I don't own a car and my errands are mostly run on foot. But bike theft is so endemic in our small Canadian city---seriously, it's impressive for this place how fast a bike will get nicked--and the cargo bikes spendy, I can't just bring myself to do it. But man, I would love to be able to put the cat carrier in it or haul heavier groceries in one so I can save my body the current wear and tear.
posted by Kitteh at 12:28 PM on October 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 12:28 PM on October 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
I had one of those "this is too good to be true" ads appear on some part of the internet about a year ago and ordered an e-bike that cost under $50. Some kind of Macy's Clearance thing, or something. It never arrived. I tracked the shipment for 2 weeks until it stopped being updated and I was glad to have put the purchase on my credit card instead of debit. I did get to spend a fun two weeks imagining having an e-bike, though.
posted by hippybear at 12:30 PM on October 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 12:30 PM on October 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
They really are fun, and while I've always enjoyed tinkering with bikes (joined a co-op for a while before it relocated) I have some connective tissue issues so my enthusiasm for riding was always tempered.
The e-bike is all the fun with much less physical impact (that better form, a better bike etc can only mitigate so much).
I do feel like maybe I need to get some better safety gear though and get used to putting it on for seemingly short trips. Both because riding frequently on stroads, and because 20MPH is faster than it feels once something goes wrong. I got a MIPS helmet, but am considering a MTB or bikecross jacket. And maybe upgrading the helmet to full face.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:40 PM on October 18, 2023
The e-bike is all the fun with much less physical impact (that better form, a better bike etc can only mitigate so much).
I do feel like maybe I need to get some better safety gear though and get used to putting it on for seemingly short trips. Both because riding frequently on stroads, and because 20MPH is faster than it feels once something goes wrong. I got a MIPS helmet, but am considering a MTB or bikecross jacket. And maybe upgrading the helmet to full face.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:40 PM on October 18, 2023
I have loved motorcycles and bikes in the past but this is the coolest most fun vehicle I’ve ever owned, and it’s primary duties are grocery shopping and taking my kid to soccer practice. It is hard to describe just how much fun they are.
Bicycles deliver the freedom that car ads promise.
posted by mhoye at 12:46 PM on October 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
Bicycles deliver the freedom that car ads promise.
posted by mhoye at 12:46 PM on October 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
I have an e-bike that's not a cargo hauler, but with a rear rack and nice big panniers I can haul a decent bit. I'm not quite able to replace my weekly grocery shop, which has me desperately wanting a cargo e-bike if I can manage to stop having home repair crises long enough to save up for one. I've extolled the virtues of my e-bike here before so I'll save y'all that rant again but I really love that thing -- after two decades of commuting by acoustic bike.
I want to be optimistic about cargo bikes for wholesale goods delivery, I really do. At the moment though, I still see full length semi trucks being used to deliver goods in crowded downtown environments and on narrow residential streets. Even though they don't fit and it's a nightmare for everyone. So I have to wonder, if logistics and delivery companies aren't already transferring goods to smaller box trucks, delivery vans, and the like, how are we gonna get them to switch to cargo bikes?
I know the actions in the report around microhubs get to that a bit, but I'm still wondering how to incentivize it. Is just the permission to have a microhub in an area where hubs/warehouses aren't currently allowed enough incentive? Currently in Chicago we're going in the opposite direction; I bike past a new logistics center/warehouse on the way to work that is large enough that semis will be able to drive IN it. It's 3 miles from my office, which is in the center of downtown nearly at the lakefront, so less than 2 miles from the edge of what people would call the Loop/Downtown.
Is parking the incentive? That works for most of us in normal vehicles (not having to worry about parking is a reason I'll sometimes pick the e-bike) but most delivery trucks just block the bike lane/crosswalk/fire hydrant/driving lane and don't seem too stressed about parking legally.
I hate to be so pessimistic folks, and I'm sorry if I'm bringing everyone down. I think e-bikes of all types can and should be transformative for cities but I have become so jaded watching my city fall down on the job in service to the mighty automobile.
posted by misskaz at 1:00 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
I want to be optimistic about cargo bikes for wholesale goods delivery, I really do. At the moment though, I still see full length semi trucks being used to deliver goods in crowded downtown environments and on narrow residential streets. Even though they don't fit and it's a nightmare for everyone. So I have to wonder, if logistics and delivery companies aren't already transferring goods to smaller box trucks, delivery vans, and the like, how are we gonna get them to switch to cargo bikes?
I know the actions in the report around microhubs get to that a bit, but I'm still wondering how to incentivize it. Is just the permission to have a microhub in an area where hubs/warehouses aren't currently allowed enough incentive? Currently in Chicago we're going in the opposite direction; I bike past a new logistics center/warehouse on the way to work that is large enough that semis will be able to drive IN it. It's 3 miles from my office, which is in the center of downtown nearly at the lakefront, so less than 2 miles from the edge of what people would call the Loop/Downtown.
Is parking the incentive? That works for most of us in normal vehicles (not having to worry about parking is a reason I'll sometimes pick the e-bike) but most delivery trucks just block the bike lane/crosswalk/fire hydrant/driving lane and don't seem too stressed about parking legally.
I hate to be so pessimistic folks, and I'm sorry if I'm bringing everyone down. I think e-bikes of all types can and should be transformative for cities but I have become so jaded watching my city fall down on the job in service to the mighty automobile.
posted by misskaz at 1:00 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
snuffleupagus, I would advise you to bring your new bike to a local bike shop and have them assess the brakes & replace if necessary. Many of the e-bikes available on Amazon come with dangerously-undersized brakes (for the increased weight of an ebike over an acoustic one). This can make it hard to stop in an emergency or even, in some cases, stop at the bottom of steeper hills.
posted by turbowombat at 1:13 PM on October 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by turbowombat at 1:13 PM on October 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
misskaz, you tighten the screws on everything they currently get away with that's ridiculous: driving into city center, dirty emissions, high speed limits, generous infra, being able to drive down every street, double-parking with impunity. You make the alternatives possible and affordable, you proselytize how nice the new way is, but you have to keep tightening the screws. Modal filters, more aggressive ticketing, narrower lanes, lower speed limits (with camera enforcement), tighter turning radii, more expensive fees and fines. Street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood. The good fight is a grind of relentless full-court pressure.
posted by daveliepmann at 1:14 PM on October 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by daveliepmann at 1:14 PM on October 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
snuffleupagus, I would advise you to bring your new bike to a local bike shop and have them assess the brakes & replace if necessary.
Yes, thanks, I did this automatically and I agree it's important. I know how to adjust v-brakes, but couldn't get the discs to stop rubbing. (Though I would have taken it in even if they weren't.) The drop-shipper/retailer reimbursed me for the adjustment after I sent them a clip of the out-of-box setup, which I wasn't expecting at the price, so that was nice.
It could still stop a little faster. Maybe I'll uprade to hydraulic if it seems like the rest of the parts are going to last.
Dropped a link to the grocery panniers I'm using in that ask—no complaints so far. They are my shopping bags, and then they go right back onto the bike from the cart.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:23 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes, thanks, I did this automatically and I agree it's important. I know how to adjust v-brakes, but couldn't get the discs to stop rubbing. (Though I would have taken it in even if they weren't.) The drop-shipper/retailer reimbursed me for the adjustment after I sent them a clip of the out-of-box setup, which I wasn't expecting at the price, so that was nice.
It could still stop a little faster. Maybe I'll uprade to hydraulic if it seems like the rest of the parts are going to last.
Dropped a link to the grocery panniers I'm using in that ask—no complaints so far. They are my shopping bags, and then they go right back onto the bike from the cart.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:23 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
My old (non-e) xtracycle reminds me that the stokemonkey days were the spearhead of e-bikes like a decade ago. Fun as heck and unreal what can be hauled, people, stuff, etc. I have not replaced a single part, just works. woot! (I do use another bike for commutes now that the kids are older so it is not my daily driver anymore). They are not too tippy and I like the ride vs a trailer, but those are cool too.
They aren't going solve everyone's problems but we should try good things. We should offer some incentives for e-cargo bikes in specific circumstances.
A tree-planting group out my way that does ~100 trees a year is thinking about having a cargo bike crew to do maintenance. Most college campuses should use them for stuff. Use cargo bikes and get a free or no fee online payment system for your good/goods.
Maybe if $COMMERCE were more attached to cargo bikes, bezos etc could buy us lobbyists that deliver more than sharrows and we can have nice things! But I bet we'll see some sweet spot where a business needs 5 vans and with bikes they might only need 4. Still cool with me. Any household that maintains fewer autos than there are legal drivers in the home could get 1000.00 bucks for a cargo bike. Crazy ideas.
@kitteh - I feel your anxiety and if I had an e-cargo bike I would buy insurance no doubt.
posted by drowsy at 1:31 PM on October 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
They aren't going solve everyone's problems but we should try good things. We should offer some incentives for e-cargo bikes in specific circumstances.
A tree-planting group out my way that does ~100 trees a year is thinking about having a cargo bike crew to do maintenance. Most college campuses should use them for stuff. Use cargo bikes and get a free or no fee online payment system for your good/goods.
Maybe if $COMMERCE were more attached to cargo bikes, bezos etc could buy us lobbyists that deliver more than sharrows and we can have nice things! But I bet we'll see some sweet spot where a business needs 5 vans and with bikes they might only need 4. Still cool with me. Any household that maintains fewer autos than there are legal drivers in the home could get 1000.00 bucks for a cargo bike. Crazy ideas.
@kitteh - I feel your anxiety and if I had an e-cargo bike I would buy insurance no doubt.
posted by drowsy at 1:31 PM on October 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have the ebike bug. To a fault.
Obsessed on a bike I could use to commute from mercer island to downtown seattle. Maybe 17 miles total round trip? Lots of hills.
Started by leasing a vanmoof. Wonderful to ride. Broke for 4 months, just got it back. Would not recommend.
Got a rad expand as a temp bike with the idea my son could use it. Too big and heavy for him. Fitted a giant rear crate to the back. Learned how not to ride it in the rain. Great for carrying cargo. Not a nice bike. Far too heavy, far too wiggly, and mechanical disc brakes on an 80 lb bike is irresponsible.
Then I got an Evelo.
Mid-drive, Belt, Enviolo Automatiq shifter. SO NICE. Will go faster than I probably should,, but it's just nice to ride. Had to get some Brake work done by REI, and I swapped out the seat for something cushier. Ordered their rear rack and panniers. Great rack, terrible panniers.
Just got a set of the ortlieb rollers which are giant, but great.
As a day to day thing, I love using the ebike. Grocery runs, commuting to work, it's wonderful.
Once the vanmoof lease is up I want to get a dedicated heavy cargo bike too. Even in Seattle with the rain and crud 7 months out of the year. It's that great.
Long story short, Highly reccomend ebike(s), cargo and all. It's the difference between riding a bike and not for a lot of people.
Also be careful on the roads. They suck.
Edit - All of ours are insured through Velosurance. Not super cheap, but good peace of mind. I've got that combined with the litlelok x1 and a few foldylocks.
posted by Lord_Pall at 1:37 PM on October 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Obsessed on a bike I could use to commute from mercer island to downtown seattle. Maybe 17 miles total round trip? Lots of hills.
Started by leasing a vanmoof. Wonderful to ride. Broke for 4 months, just got it back. Would not recommend.
Got a rad expand as a temp bike with the idea my son could use it. Too big and heavy for him. Fitted a giant rear crate to the back. Learned how not to ride it in the rain. Great for carrying cargo. Not a nice bike. Far too heavy, far too wiggly, and mechanical disc brakes on an 80 lb bike is irresponsible.
Then I got an Evelo.
Mid-drive, Belt, Enviolo Automatiq shifter. SO NICE. Will go faster than I probably should,, but it's just nice to ride. Had to get some Brake work done by REI, and I swapped out the seat for something cushier. Ordered their rear rack and panniers. Great rack, terrible panniers.
Just got a set of the ortlieb rollers which are giant, but great.
As a day to day thing, I love using the ebike. Grocery runs, commuting to work, it's wonderful.
Once the vanmoof lease is up I want to get a dedicated heavy cargo bike too. Even in Seattle with the rain and crud 7 months out of the year. It's that great.
Long story short, Highly reccomend ebike(s), cargo and all. It's the difference between riding a bike and not for a lot of people.
Also be careful on the roads. They suck.
Edit - All of ours are insured through Velosurance. Not super cheap, but good peace of mind. I've got that combined with the litlelok x1 and a few foldylocks.
posted by Lord_Pall at 1:37 PM on October 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
No furtive, I tried to make this clear. For urban areas this is perfect! Just need some regulation. BUT, for a vast majority of the West, the distances make it difficult. For what I think is important moving forward.
We could make everyone's lives better, if you would stop being such dicks!
It's what we as Democrat's/Progressives need to emphasize. We can make "MAKE YOUR LIFE BETTER!" Click this link...
posted by Windopaene at 1:41 PM on October 18, 2023
We could make everyone's lives better, if you would stop being such dicks!
It's what we as Democrat's/Progressives need to emphasize. We can make "MAKE YOUR LIFE BETTER!" Click this link...
posted by Windopaene at 1:41 PM on October 18, 2023
Despite all the well meaning people here, way too many ebike users are assholes and will ruin whatever good could come come from ebikes. They remove speed limiters, use dangerous fire-prone batteries, ride 20-something on crowded mixed-use paths and generally terrorize pedestrians.
posted by cccorlew at 1:48 PM on October 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by cccorlew at 1:48 PM on October 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I want a Donky Bike. I'm about a 10-minute walk from large grocery stores, but I would love to have a little cargo bike to take the load off my old bones.
posted by pracowity at 1:53 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 1:53 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sure cccorlew, but what group of enthusiasts don't have not great members. Cyclists as a whole have a bad reputation, because car-centric culture here in the US. People are people. Any group will have shitty members.
Are e-bikers worse? Magic 8-ball says too soon to tell. Ask about Pickleball, Curse or benefit?
posted by Windopaene at 2:09 PM on October 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Are e-bikers worse? Magic 8-ball says too soon to tell. Ask about Pickleball, Curse or benefit?
posted by Windopaene at 2:09 PM on October 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
BUT, for a vast majority of the West, the distances make it difficult.
Eh, there are always at least a few people biking down I40, even in the summer. IMO, the best thing that could solve this would be to build a 'bike highway' so that people can cross the US slowly Forrest Gump style without doing it in a shoulder next to cars racing at 75mph. Send it down Historic Route 66. That would have been a great use of BBB funds.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:13 PM on October 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Eh, there are always at least a few people biking down I40, even in the summer. IMO, the best thing that could solve this would be to build a 'bike highway' so that people can cross the US slowly Forrest Gump style without doing it in a shoulder next to cars racing at 75mph. Send it down Historic Route 66. That would have been a great use of BBB funds.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:13 PM on October 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think it is Iowa that has built a network of trails with brewpubs and nearby airbnb type lodging. That said, Iowa is a different environment than New Mexico, Utah, Nevada...
posted by Windopaene at 2:22 PM on October 18, 2023
posted by Windopaene at 2:22 PM on October 18, 2023
For daily city grocery shopping, what you need is a simple bike with a removable basket with a handle so you can lock your empty basket to the bike, ride to the store, use your basket in the store as a shopping basket, show or dump your stuff at the cash register just to pay for it, load your basket back up, carry it out, lock it back on the bike, ride home, and carry your basket of fresh groceries back into your home. Do a little work for your calories.
But maybe what I really want is a carrying yoke.
posted by pracowity at 2:29 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
But maybe what I really want is a carrying yoke.
posted by pracowity at 2:29 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm seeing more and more cargo bikes in my area, often hauling kids around, and I'd love to see them (bikes, not kids) used for commercial deliveries too. On the other hand, this is kind of already a solved problem.
Regardless, neighborhood-level distribution hubs would be pretty essential and I'd be curious what incentives could move UPS, FedEx, et al. to switch to this model in dense areas. One good thing is that in my city we're designating more space on streets for 'neighborhood loading zones' [pdf] instead of for personal car storage, which should work well for commercial cargo bike deliveries too.
posted by theory at 2:31 PM on October 18, 2023
Regardless, neighborhood-level distribution hubs would be pretty essential and I'd be curious what incentives could move UPS, FedEx, et al. to switch to this model in dense areas. One good thing is that in my city we're designating more space on streets for 'neighborhood loading zones' [pdf] instead of for personal car storage, which should work well for commercial cargo bike deliveries too.
posted by theory at 2:31 PM on October 18, 2023
"unless you ask about our weather in july.."
Was in The Music Man in high school, (first tenor in the babershop quartet...). Can't disagree too much, (they could vote better). But, Midwest Polite? Yes they are.
posted by Windopaene at 2:35 PM on October 18, 2023
Was in The Music Man in high school, (first tenor in the babershop quartet...). Can't disagree too much, (they could vote better). But, Midwest Polite? Yes they are.
posted by Windopaene at 2:35 PM on October 18, 2023
Despite all the well meaning people here, way too many ebike users are assholes
The spandex and Sur Ron crowd seem to deserve each other.
But, yes, the crazy high output 'e-bikes' that are basically electric dirt bikes on the road are a problem currently flying under the radar because there's not that many of them. Yet.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:52 PM on October 18, 2023
The spandex and Sur Ron crowd seem to deserve each other.
But, yes, the crazy high output 'e-bikes' that are basically electric dirt bikes on the road are a problem currently flying under the radar because there's not that many of them. Yet.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:52 PM on October 18, 2023
Is this a sort of "motorcycles vs scooters" kind of thing?
posted by hippybear at 2:57 PM on October 18, 2023
posted by hippybear at 2:57 PM on October 18, 2023
Sort of. It gets convoluted, quickly.
In the US system the basic idea is that there are Class I, II, and III ebikes. If the e-bike is in one of these categories, then it gets to not be a 'motor vehicle' subject to registration and satisfying Federal safety standards (as is required to make a dirt bike street legal, where that's allowed).
Class I can go up to 15mph and is pedal assisted (only, if you read the regs strictly). Class II is up to ~20mph (for some reason, most controllers seem to actually govern them at around 22mph) and can have a throttle. Class III is up to ~28-30mph and is supposed to be pedal assist only.
Chinese manufacturers and the companies that import/source from there are pushing for interpretation that a bike can be Class I/II or Class II/III depending on the configuration (as in, firmware settings that may be user reconfigurable on the fly)—and can have an 'offroad' or 'private' mode that turns off all controls.
Safety advocates want the interpretation where a Class I or Class III bike can't have a throttle, at all (rather than requiring pedaling for assist over 20mph, being reconfigurable etc). Euro/UK rules are a little different, but also impose the throttle restriction on higher speeds.
From this view, if an e-bike doesn't conform to the classes, or has more power than allowed, then it's an electric motorcyle. And should be registered, plated, insured and require a motorcycle license to ride.
(Reductively: Class III bikes can't use most bike infrastructure. Class II can use some but not all. Class I can go anywhere an analog bike can.)
This is also why the high end euro-style e-bikes with 'mid drive' (the motor in or next to the bottom bracket) tend to be pedal assist only, and those using Chinese (Bafang) hub motors tend to have throttles.
There's also total wattage limits — in the UK, at least, the entire bike is not supposed to be more than 250W - so one motor and not a very strong one. In the US, up to 750W — but the quasi-legal dirt-bike-alikes can be as much as 1000W or in rare cases more (a 500W motor on each wheel).
And higher voltage (which is in some ways more meaningful) -- 52v or 72v instead of the 36v or 48v seen normally. (Though sometimes higher voltage is for range, within the rules, as range depends on amp-hours in the battery).
Scooters are the wild west, though some states treat them as e-bikes, and at this point performance scooters are scarier than performance e-bikes (especially the generic Aliexpress ones) as they can hit the same speeds (using the same kinds of hub motors) on a much lighter, less stable and durable platform.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:13 PM on October 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
In the US system the basic idea is that there are Class I, II, and III ebikes. If the e-bike is in one of these categories, then it gets to not be a 'motor vehicle' subject to registration and satisfying Federal safety standards (as is required to make a dirt bike street legal, where that's allowed).
Class I can go up to 15mph and is pedal assisted (only, if you read the regs strictly). Class II is up to ~20mph (for some reason, most controllers seem to actually govern them at around 22mph) and can have a throttle. Class III is up to ~28-30mph and is supposed to be pedal assist only.
Chinese manufacturers and the companies that import/source from there are pushing for interpretation that a bike can be Class I/II or Class II/III depending on the configuration (as in, firmware settings that may be user reconfigurable on the fly)—and can have an 'offroad' or 'private' mode that turns off all controls.
Safety advocates want the interpretation where a Class I or Class III bike can't have a throttle, at all (rather than requiring pedaling for assist over 20mph, being reconfigurable etc). Euro/UK rules are a little different, but also impose the throttle restriction on higher speeds.
From this view, if an e-bike doesn't conform to the classes, or has more power than allowed, then it's an electric motorcyle. And should be registered, plated, insured and require a motorcycle license to ride.
(Reductively: Class III bikes can't use most bike infrastructure. Class II can use some but not all. Class I can go anywhere an analog bike can.)
This is also why the high end euro-style e-bikes with 'mid drive' (the motor in or next to the bottom bracket) tend to be pedal assist only, and those using Chinese (Bafang) hub motors tend to have throttles.
There's also total wattage limits — in the UK, at least, the entire bike is not supposed to be more than 250W - so one motor and not a very strong one. In the US, up to 750W — but the quasi-legal dirt-bike-alikes can be as much as 1000W or in rare cases more (a 500W motor on each wheel).
And higher voltage (which is in some ways more meaningful) -- 52v or 72v instead of the 36v or 48v seen normally. (Though sometimes higher voltage is for range, within the rules, as range depends on amp-hours in the battery).
Scooters are the wild west, though some states treat them as e-bikes, and at this point performance scooters are scarier than performance e-bikes (especially the generic Aliexpress ones) as they can hit the same speeds (using the same kinds of hub motors) on a much lighter, less stable and durable platform.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:13 PM on October 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
Wow, thanks for your detailed answer.
I think one detail is missing for someone like me who has no knowledge about these things at all -- what difference does having a throttle make?
In my mind, a throttle is a thing you use to speed up or slow down an engine of some sort. But apparently there are e-bikes without throttles? I don't understand. I'd like to.
I do thank you for your detailed answer before, and don't expect you to do the labor of answering this thing. But that difference remains something unclear to me. I'm sure it's just a terminology problem.
posted by hippybear at 3:21 PM on October 18, 2023
I think one detail is missing for someone like me who has no knowledge about these things at all -- what difference does having a throttle make?
In my mind, a throttle is a thing you use to speed up or slow down an engine of some sort. But apparently there are e-bikes without throttles? I don't understand. I'd like to.
I do thank you for your detailed answer before, and don't expect you to do the labor of answering this thing. But that difference remains something unclear to me. I'm sure it's just a terminology problem.
posted by hippybear at 3:21 PM on October 18, 2023
(And, due to the nature of the motors, the speed limit is always a software thing, which the safety crowd often doesn't understand in arguing that any e-bike 'capable' of exceeding a certain speed based on its motor is de facto illegal to import and sell.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:22 PM on October 18, 2023
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:22 PM on October 18, 2023
E-bikes without throttles use the pedals to control the motor, with either a torque sensor (measures how hard you are pedaling, found mostly on higher-end bikes) or a cadence sensor (measures how fast you are pedaling). If you don’t pedal, the motor doesn’t go.
E-bikes with throttles have hand controls that let you use the motor without pedaling.
posted by mbrubeck at 3:23 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
E-bikes with throttles have hand controls that let you use the motor without pedaling.
posted by mbrubeck at 3:23 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
No, that's a good question!
To elaborate: throttle here means a twist throttle, like a motorcycle, or a thumb or finger lever.
The alternatives are a cadence sensor (which lets the bike tell if you're pedaling—yes/no) or a torque sensor (which is smarter and lets the bike deliver power proportional to your effort).
Many of the Chinese-based bikes with a throttle and a cadence sensor are geared such that you're 'ghost pedaling' once you get anywhere near top speed—no longer contributing any energy, just signaling 'power' as you would with the throttle.
The euro versions tend to all have torque sensors and have gearing such that you can contribute power with your legs through the range. They also feel more like riding a traditional bike than commanding a vehicle.
So, having the throttle lets you ride the bike as if it were a moped, motorcycle, etc. (Which I personally prefer — ideally, I'd like a throttle and a torque sensor. Some high end bikes are starting to have this.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:31 PM on October 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
To elaborate: throttle here means a twist throttle, like a motorcycle, or a thumb or finger lever.
The alternatives are a cadence sensor (which lets the bike tell if you're pedaling—yes/no) or a torque sensor (which is smarter and lets the bike deliver power proportional to your effort).
Many of the Chinese-based bikes with a throttle and a cadence sensor are geared such that you're 'ghost pedaling' once you get anywhere near top speed—no longer contributing any energy, just signaling 'power' as you would with the throttle.
The euro versions tend to all have torque sensors and have gearing such that you can contribute power with your legs through the range. They also feel more like riding a traditional bike than commanding a vehicle.
So, having the throttle lets you ride the bike as if it were a moped, motorcycle, etc. (Which I personally prefer — ideally, I'd like a throttle and a torque sensor. Some high end bikes are starting to have this.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:31 PM on October 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
My e-bike is a class II, and the throttle is really helpful when starting from a full stop (and ironically makes me more likely to come to a full stop in certain situations, because getting started again isn't this crushing effort). Because there's only a cadence sensor, there's a dead zone of a half-turn of a crank on a bike with (in my case) no gears and that weighs 60lbs. It's enough to make my middle aged knees cry. But with the throttle I can start from a full stop and get up to a safe, non wobbly speed quickly.
Really helpful at four way stops and the like, too, where being able to take your "turn" with cars in what they deem a reasonable amount of time is pretty important to feeling and being safe. Same with scooting around an obstruction in a bike lane before the car traffic behind you catches up.
If I had a higher quality bike with gears and a torque sensor, those issues wouldn't be as problematic though I think I'd miss the throttle at least a little.
I should note that the throttle is a "dead man's switch" style, spring loaded so I twist it to go but the minute I let go it springs back to the off position. It's really just for specific circumstances (starting from a stop, going up a hill) and I don't use it to just cruise without pedaling.
posted by misskaz at 4:11 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Really helpful at four way stops and the like, too, where being able to take your "turn" with cars in what they deem a reasonable amount of time is pretty important to feeling and being safe. Same with scooting around an obstruction in a bike lane before the car traffic behind you catches up.
If I had a higher quality bike with gears and a torque sensor, those issues wouldn't be as problematic though I think I'd miss the throttle at least a little.
I should note that the throttle is a "dead man's switch" style, spring loaded so I twist it to go but the minute I let go it springs back to the off position. It's really just for specific circumstances (starting from a stop, going up a hill) and I don't use it to just cruise without pedaling.
posted by misskaz at 4:11 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm in Toronto and there's a lot of people downtown complaining about ebikes riding on the sidewalk but where I live and work in the suburbs its a non-issue because the sidewalks are usually empty anyway. As a result I'm more inclined to give ebikes a pass because every Uber Eats delivery person I see on one is one less car making that same trip.
My one time riding an ebike was 8 years ago when I rented one while visiting Kyoto. It was a pedal assist and turning the assist on while going up a hill was so much fun, I felt like the Bionic Man. I can bet zooming around on a cargo bike loaded with groceries would just feel great.
Outside of physical infrastructure like bike lanes I think the biggest thing preventing more widespread adoption of things like cargo ebikes over here is the theft risk. I don't leave my regular bike out of my sight for more than a couple of minutes, which is fine for commuting or recreational riding but I only do very quick shopping trips with it. There's no way I'd leave an ecargo bike out of my sight long enough to buy enough stuff to fill it up. Get the cops to do their job and then I might think about it.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:41 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
My one time riding an ebike was 8 years ago when I rented one while visiting Kyoto. It was a pedal assist and turning the assist on while going up a hill was so much fun, I felt like the Bionic Man. I can bet zooming around on a cargo bike loaded with groceries would just feel great.
Outside of physical infrastructure like bike lanes I think the biggest thing preventing more widespread adoption of things like cargo ebikes over here is the theft risk. I don't leave my regular bike out of my sight for more than a couple of minutes, which is fine for commuting or recreational riding but I only do very quick shopping trips with it. There's no way I'd leave an ecargo bike out of my sight long enough to buy enough stuff to fill it up. Get the cops to do their job and then I might think about it.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:41 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes, being able to throttle instantly from stop at a light makes everything much better in traffic. A big reason why I'm leery of the nicer but pedal only mid-drive bikes.
I do also use my thumb lever throttle to ride at set speed without pedaling (as I'd be ghost pedaling, anyway, and I'm not required to in Class II). The controller on my bike does the 'cruise control' thing where if I've held the throttle for more then 5s then it just stays on. I could live without that (though I'd miss it) but in a city like LA with very little separate bike infrastructure, riding in traffic, the basic presence of the throttle makes a big difference in my willingness to rely on it for day to day life.
The other thing that probably needs to be explained is that the little control panel on the handlebars that shows your speed also has +/- buttons for the "PAS" (pedal or power assist) level, typically 1 to 4 or 1 to 5. Controlling how much power is delivered. On typical cadence sensor + throttle bikes, the PAS level is functionally a preset MPH/KMH limit after which assist cuts out. So if I put my bike on PAS 5 and hold the throttle down for 5s it accelerates to and then cruises at 20mph after I release it, until I brake.
If only using the pedals, then the power is on demand and the cruise control doesn't come on, but with the cadence sensor the PAS level still functions as the speed up to which the bike delivers assist or doesn't. The power delivery does not seem to be modulated by crank rotation speed even if a cadence sensor can do that (like, on electronic bike trainers).
This on/off boost takes some getting used to, but also accounts for the glee and easy adoption for local trips. It's literally as effortless as you want it to be, if you're not trying to conserve battery.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:44 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
I do also use my thumb lever throttle to ride at set speed without pedaling (as I'd be ghost pedaling, anyway, and I'm not required to in Class II). The controller on my bike does the 'cruise control' thing where if I've held the throttle for more then 5s then it just stays on. I could live without that (though I'd miss it) but in a city like LA with very little separate bike infrastructure, riding in traffic, the basic presence of the throttle makes a big difference in my willingness to rely on it for day to day life.
The other thing that probably needs to be explained is that the little control panel on the handlebars that shows your speed also has +/- buttons for the "PAS" (pedal or power assist) level, typically 1 to 4 or 1 to 5. Controlling how much power is delivered. On typical cadence sensor + throttle bikes, the PAS level is functionally a preset MPH/KMH limit after which assist cuts out. So if I put my bike on PAS 5 and hold the throttle down for 5s it accelerates to and then cruises at 20mph after I release it, until I brake.
If only using the pedals, then the power is on demand and the cruise control doesn't come on, but with the cadence sensor the PAS level still functions as the speed up to which the bike delivers assist or doesn't. The power delivery does not seem to be modulated by crank rotation speed even if a cadence sensor can do that (like, on electronic bike trainers).
This on/off boost takes some getting used to, but also accounts for the glee and easy adoption for local trips. It's literally as effortless as you want it to be, if you're not trying to conserve battery.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:44 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Does anyone ever think, rather mournfully, that “neighborhood distribution hubs” used to be called stores? Anyway, I would love to be able to bike around NYC and not have to worry about being killed. It’s better than it was but still way too many cars and not enough protected bike lanes.
posted by Ollie at 5:36 PM on October 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Ollie at 5:36 PM on October 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
In my mind, a throttle is a thing you use to speed up or slow down an engine of some sort. But apparently there are e-bikes without throttles? I don't understand. I'd like to.
My bike has both! It has a torque sensor that activates the motor, as well as a thumb throttle. Under heavy loads, the throttle is a lifesaver. Getting started, even in a low gear with a heavy load is kind of sketchy, but the throttle solves that problem. I can carry pretty heavy loads on a flat surface without the e-assist; it's just a bonus. Getting going, it is absolutely a dream come true, and almost necessary.
BUT! Regardless of load, starting quickly in traffic, especially when you aren't around good infrastructure, really is the biggest game changer between bikes v ebikes to me. Being able to get up to speed, even if you're maintaining that speed yourself without the e-assist, has changed my relationship with cars quite a bit. You'll always have some dickheads that want to race your weird bike in their car, but if you can jackrabbit start and keep pace with them, they tend to treat you more like a car in terms of giving you space. I get far fewer instances of people being assholes if I can keep pace. It's a really weird, subtle thing.
posted by furnace.heart at 6:06 PM on October 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
My bike has both! It has a torque sensor that activates the motor, as well as a thumb throttle. Under heavy loads, the throttle is a lifesaver. Getting started, even in a low gear with a heavy load is kind of sketchy, but the throttle solves that problem. I can carry pretty heavy loads on a flat surface without the e-assist; it's just a bonus. Getting going, it is absolutely a dream come true, and almost necessary.
BUT! Regardless of load, starting quickly in traffic, especially when you aren't around good infrastructure, really is the biggest game changer between bikes v ebikes to me. Being able to get up to speed, even if you're maintaining that speed yourself without the e-assist, has changed my relationship with cars quite a bit. You'll always have some dickheads that want to race your weird bike in their car, but if you can jackrabbit start and keep pace with them, they tend to treat you more like a car in terms of giving you space. I get far fewer instances of people being assholes if I can keep pace. It's a really weird, subtle thing.
posted by furnace.heart at 6:06 PM on October 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I got an e-bike earlier this year, finally giving in due to arthritis in my neck, which made normal over-the-bars bike posture extremely painful for me. So it's a cruiser-style bike, much more upright posture, and only Class 1, but the point about "getting up to speed" rings true even there. On the occasions I've forgotten to charge, and find myself needing to make it the 7 miles to work with like 15% capacity, I can do pretty well with turning the assist on only for the starts from full stop, and then turn it back off to keep pedaling it myself at a reasonable 15mph without too much effort. Even the lowest-assist setting, for just a few seconds, makes it quite easy to get most of the way to 15mph. Keeping that heavy beast of a bike moving isn't hard, but getting it moving sure is!
posted by notoriety public at 6:16 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by notoriety public at 6:16 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
...but most delivery trucks just block the bike lane/crosswalk/fire hydrant/driving lane and don't seem too stressed about parking legally.
Unlike like every rental scooter or ebike obligatorily if not mandatorily parked smack dab in the middle of the sidewalk especially on the corners of any block now? As if.
posted by y2karl at 5:56 AM on October 19, 2023
Unlike like every rental scooter or ebike obligatorily if not mandatorily parked smack dab in the middle of the sidewalk especially on the corners of any block now? As if.
posted by y2karl at 5:56 AM on October 19, 2023
Mod note: Several comments removed. Please don't take another user's comments and mark them with strikethroughs. Please follow the guidelines and allow others express themselves and don't try to mangle their words to your own view.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:40 AM on October 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:40 AM on October 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Unlike like every rental scooter or ebike obligatorily if not mandatorily parked smack dab in the middle of the sidewalk especially on the corners of any block now? As if.
But we're not talking about rental scooters or ebikes here? I didn't even write the above as a complaint, just an observation. We're talking about trying to mode shift deliveries from trucks to cargo bikes, and I was asking what the incentive to delivery companies to make that shift would be. My point, which you clearly missed, was merely that "it's easier to find parking for a bike than a truck" probably wouldn't be a strong incentive because delivery trucks don't typically search for legal parking.
I understand (and share!) your frustration about sidewalks being blocked by rentals but it's not relevant to this discussion at all - especially given that the report recommends creating special parking zones for the delivery cargo bikes.
posted by misskaz at 7:25 AM on October 19, 2023
But we're not talking about rental scooters or ebikes here? I didn't even write the above as a complaint, just an observation. We're talking about trying to mode shift deliveries from trucks to cargo bikes, and I was asking what the incentive to delivery companies to make that shift would be. My point, which you clearly missed, was merely that "it's easier to find parking for a bike than a truck" probably wouldn't be a strong incentive because delivery trucks don't typically search for legal parking.
I understand (and share!) your frustration about sidewalks being blocked by rentals but it's not relevant to this discussion at all - especially given that the report recommends creating special parking zones for the delivery cargo bikes.
posted by misskaz at 7:25 AM on October 19, 2023
If the venerable strikethrough/FTFY convention is flat-out banned it might be good to make that explicit in the guidelines. Or, somewhere.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:41 AM on October 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:41 AM on October 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
We're just finishing up a 19 day visit around France - 5 cities.
Bikes everywhere, especially Paris. Many ebikes. Just about aĺl the food delivery people are on ebikes or motor scooters. I saw a UPS ebike (brown, natch). I saw only a few of those Dutch wheelbarrow type bikes, but saw more with the extended wheelbase for cargo or a second person on the back. And many escooters. European city traffic is, um, exciting, but given their many narrow roads and advanced bike infrastructure... it all still seems to work. (Their public transit is an order of magnitude better, but you already know that)
The big win will be getting more North Americans out of their cars and onto bikes or transit. It would be nice to see more commercial use of ebikes. The Europeans have a good intermediate solution for commercial deliveries: smaller trucks, many of which are electric.
We have 6 bikes in the house, but an ebike is definitely in our future.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:43 AM on October 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Bikes everywhere, especially Paris. Many ebikes. Just about aĺl the food delivery people are on ebikes or motor scooters. I saw a UPS ebike (brown, natch). I saw only a few of those Dutch wheelbarrow type bikes, but saw more with the extended wheelbase for cargo or a second person on the back. And many escooters. European city traffic is, um, exciting, but given their many narrow roads and advanced bike infrastructure... it all still seems to work. (Their public transit is an order of magnitude better, but you already know that)
The big win will be getting more North Americans out of their cars and onto bikes or transit. It would be nice to see more commercial use of ebikes. The Europeans have a good intermediate solution for commercial deliveries: smaller trucks, many of which are electric.
We have 6 bikes in the house, but an ebike is definitely in our future.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:43 AM on October 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Windopaene: For urban areas this is perfect! Just need some regulation. BUT, for a vast majority of the West, the distances make it difficult.
Just because something can't be applied everywhere, that doesn't mean it's not a good solution. If we only want solutions that work everywhere and all the time, we won't be able to solve anything.
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:46 AM on October 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Just because something can't be applied everywhere, that doesn't mean it's not a good solution. If we only want solutions that work everywhere and all the time, we won't be able to solve anything.
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:46 AM on October 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Safety advocates want the interpretation where a Class I or Class III bike can't have a throttle, at all (rather than requiring pedaling for assist over 20mph, being reconfigurable etc). Euro/UK rules are a little different, but also impose the throttle restriction on higher speeds.
The "no throttle" thing is so dumb and short sighted and needs to not be a thing. Throttles on ebikes are incredibly useful and aren't just a lazy "I don't want to pedal at all" thing but can be a huge safety feature for starting from stoplights or making it easier to cross sketchy terrain like snow, mud or sand since you can put your feet down as outriggers and focus on balancing while moving.
It's also just dang convenient when you need a break but also want to keep moving.
Even though I've been cycling my whole life and know how to downshift before coming to a stop, I use my throttle all the time for just getting started just because it's easier. I don't have to set my pedals to a start position, I just keep one foot on the ground, hit the throttle, then I'm balanced and cruising and start pedaling.
Almost all ebikes with throttles also have a cadence or torque sensor for pedal activated assist in addition to the throttle.
Speaking personally using the throttle too much is self-regulating because it's generally more comfortable to be pedaling than just riding the throttle and hanging on. Normal bikes that aren't, say, mopeds or scooters are really the most comfortable when you're moving and pedaling.
There's also total wattage limits — in the UK, at least, the entire bike is not supposed to be more than 250W - so one motor and not a very strong one. In the US, up to 750W — but the quasi-legal dirt-bike-alikes can be as much as 1000W or in rare cases more (a 500W motor on each wheel).
The wattage limits are dumb, too. There's plenty of valid, safe reasons to have a 1000+ watt ebike, especially for hauling cargo, climbing steep hills. 250 watts isn't much, especially on a hub drive.
Speed limits and a more educated/polite culture should definitely be a thing because, yes, there's definitely a lot of overpowered ebikes out there being ridden by people without the mindfulness, cycling ettiquette and bike handling experience and skills for it and riding way above their limits.
I've talked about this before but my DIY Bafang BBSHD with a 52V battery can easily hit 30+ on throttle alone, but I keep my speed down and even often set a speed limiter into it to keep it chill. With the 52V battery it's more like 1100-1200 watts continuous, with 2200 watt peaks.
I use every last one of those watts on the crazy hills around here, especially when hauling a load of groceries, and that's using very short/slow gear ratios for climbing.
I'm also all about slowing way down to walking-compatible when passing pedestrians because it's just nice to not be an asshole and it doesn't really cost me any effort or sweat like it did on an analog bike, and people with kids and dogs really appreciate it. Plus I get to meet cute dogs and watch little kids toddling around on balance bikes.
And it's not at all unusual that parents use me as some kind of object lesson in the vein of "See, even they wear a helmet!" because I look like I'm too cool for a helmet. Which I'm not.
posted by loquacious at 12:04 PM on October 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
The "no throttle" thing is so dumb and short sighted and needs to not be a thing. Throttles on ebikes are incredibly useful and aren't just a lazy "I don't want to pedal at all" thing but can be a huge safety feature for starting from stoplights or making it easier to cross sketchy terrain like snow, mud or sand since you can put your feet down as outriggers and focus on balancing while moving.
It's also just dang convenient when you need a break but also want to keep moving.
Even though I've been cycling my whole life and know how to downshift before coming to a stop, I use my throttle all the time for just getting started just because it's easier. I don't have to set my pedals to a start position, I just keep one foot on the ground, hit the throttle, then I'm balanced and cruising and start pedaling.
Almost all ebikes with throttles also have a cadence or torque sensor for pedal activated assist in addition to the throttle.
Speaking personally using the throttle too much is self-regulating because it's generally more comfortable to be pedaling than just riding the throttle and hanging on. Normal bikes that aren't, say, mopeds or scooters are really the most comfortable when you're moving and pedaling.
There's also total wattage limits — in the UK, at least, the entire bike is not supposed to be more than 250W - so one motor and not a very strong one. In the US, up to 750W — but the quasi-legal dirt-bike-alikes can be as much as 1000W or in rare cases more (a 500W motor on each wheel).
The wattage limits are dumb, too. There's plenty of valid, safe reasons to have a 1000+ watt ebike, especially for hauling cargo, climbing steep hills. 250 watts isn't much, especially on a hub drive.
Speed limits and a more educated/polite culture should definitely be a thing because, yes, there's definitely a lot of overpowered ebikes out there being ridden by people without the mindfulness, cycling ettiquette and bike handling experience and skills for it and riding way above their limits.
I've talked about this before but my DIY Bafang BBSHD with a 52V battery can easily hit 30+ on throttle alone, but I keep my speed down and even often set a speed limiter into it to keep it chill. With the 52V battery it's more like 1100-1200 watts continuous, with 2200 watt peaks.
I use every last one of those watts on the crazy hills around here, especially when hauling a load of groceries, and that's using very short/slow gear ratios for climbing.
I'm also all about slowing way down to walking-compatible when passing pedestrians because it's just nice to not be an asshole and it doesn't really cost me any effort or sweat like it did on an analog bike, and people with kids and dogs really appreciate it. Plus I get to meet cute dogs and watch little kids toddling around on balance bikes.
And it's not at all unusual that parents use me as some kind of object lesson in the vein of "See, even they wear a helmet!" because I look like I'm too cool for a helmet. Which I'm not.
posted by loquacious at 12:04 PM on October 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I know everywhere isn't LA, but at least here it's really hard to overstate how important the throttle is for pragmatic adoption.
It lets you react to cars without regard for your athleticism. That really ought to be the end of the debate (imo).
(Yet the County e-bike program is euro style mid drives without a throttle.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:49 PM on October 19, 2023
It lets you react to cars without regard for your athleticism. That really ought to be the end of the debate (imo).
(Yet the County e-bike program is euro style mid drives without a throttle.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:49 PM on October 19, 2023
You can have ebikes without wattage limits or pedal requirements, they're called electric scooters or motorcycles. At some point it is too easy for a rider to do harm to themselves and others and that's where licensing and insurance comes in. Probably not an issue for delivery companies because they'd want the insurance anyways.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:17 PM on October 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:17 PM on October 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Half the debate is how a throttle (etc) lets the bicyclist be less endangered by cars, yes, but the other half is what makes a bicyclist more dangerous to pedestrians and other bikers. If we’re talking about e-bikes allowed onto otherwise car-less lanes.
Mass*acceleration seems like a very likely measure of risk.
posted by clew at 4:21 PM on October 19, 2023
Mass*acceleration seems like a very likely measure of risk.
posted by clew at 4:21 PM on October 19, 2023
On the sidewalk or in traffic lanes? The same lane in which I can operate my 5.9L v8 Jeep.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:24 PM on October 19, 2023
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:24 PM on October 19, 2023
Is there a law restricting powerful e-bikes there? AFAIK the question only arises with places where nonbicycles are restricted.
posted by clew at 4:52 PM on October 19, 2023
posted by clew at 4:52 PM on October 19, 2023
Yes. In the US, if your bike isn't compliant then (strictly speaking, and without researching outliers) you need a motorcycle license and it needs plates. The full discussion involves Federal highway funding, Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, and the Commerce Clause.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:54 PM on October 19, 2023
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:54 PM on October 19, 2023
The judge isn't likely to think so, if whatever you were riding was impounded on a public thoroughfare.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:32 PM on October 19, 2023
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:32 PM on October 19, 2023
I know everywhere isn't LA, but at least here it's really hard to overstate how important the throttle is for pragmatic adoption.
I've carefully avoided taking part in this discussion because US norms and needs are apparently so different.
Streetsblog's video about who rides in NYC bike lanes was eye-opening, for instance.
I don't think throttles are allowed or seen here in Berlin, and class III speeds (30mph!) are shockingly faster than anyone goes on (assisted) bike-like vehicles. I'm pretty sure the rule is to cut the power at 25km/h (15mph), and we're blessed with a culture that as far as I'm aware doesn't retrofit beyond that. The few bad actors are the occasional moped snuck into a bike lane for half a block, or delivery drivers using their "pedal without pedaling" trick (which irks me in that it points in the direction of the US cultural problem, but isn't yet a true issue).
The thing is, I know LA is more Thunderdome than city (in both culture and infrastructure), so I get that you might need different things. But it sure is weird to read how folks get it done. I worry that as bike infra grows, the only way to preserve bike spaces for vulnerable riders is heavy-handed state intervention.
posted by daveliepmann at 10:50 PM on October 19, 2023
I've carefully avoided taking part in this discussion because US norms and needs are apparently so different.
Streetsblog's video about who rides in NYC bike lanes was eye-opening, for instance.
I don't think throttles are allowed or seen here in Berlin, and class III speeds (30mph!) are shockingly faster than anyone goes on (assisted) bike-like vehicles. I'm pretty sure the rule is to cut the power at 25km/h (15mph), and we're blessed with a culture that as far as I'm aware doesn't retrofit beyond that. The few bad actors are the occasional moped snuck into a bike lane for half a block, or delivery drivers using their "pedal without pedaling" trick (which irks me in that it points in the direction of the US cultural problem, but isn't yet a true issue).
The thing is, I know LA is more Thunderdome than city (in both culture and infrastructure), so I get that you might need different things. But it sure is weird to read how folks get it done. I worry that as bike infra grows, the only way to preserve bike spaces for vulnerable riders is heavy-handed state intervention.
posted by daveliepmann at 10:50 PM on October 19, 2023
If the venerable strikethrough/FTFY convention is flat-out banned it might be good to make that explicit in the guidelines. Or, somewhere.
Although I disagreed with the two wrongs argument in the initial deleted post, it was a very well constructed use of the strikethrough convention which built on the foundation of the post it was quoting while permitting it to remain in view.
However, if the use of strikethroughs is now considered to not allow others to express themselves, perhaps the easiest fix would be to simply disable the strike tags.
posted by fairmettle at 2:38 AM on October 20, 2023
Although I disagreed with the two wrongs argument in the initial deleted post, it was a very well constructed use of the strikethrough convention which built on the foundation of the post it was quoting while permitting it to remain in view.
However, if the use of strikethroughs is now considered to not allow others to express themselves, perhaps the easiest fix would be to simply disable the strike tags.
posted by fairmettle at 2:38 AM on October 20, 2023
I can't drive, so cycling used to be my main form of commuting, until I developed a hip/back problem that left me barely able to walk. The physical therapist told me that biking was contributing to the problem and that because I was biomechanically weird (I sort of only use one foot to pedal), I probably couldn't ride a bike easily unless I paid a bazillion dollars for a custom setup.
After that I was dependent on buses, but then my bus service degraded and I was simply miserable. Fast forward to 2020. I got my pandemic stimulus check and immediately went and got an ebike.
My ebike is not a cargo bike. It's barely even recognizable as an ebike because it's quite small and designed to look like a commuter analog bike. Yet I do most of my shopping on it. I only have two panniers but I generally don't buy any large items so I make do. I am obsessed with looking at cargo bikes online though. I love their clever designs, and love to see people carrying silly items like beer kegs or kiddie pools. I've looked into getting a trailer for my bike or getting a true cargo bike--even though I don't quite have a use case--but the problem I run up against is parking. Bike parking is lacking in general, so I can't imagine trying to park anything bigger. I'm not sure I even have room in my garage. If I lived in an apartment, it would be completely untenable.
Regarding throttles--I have a torque sensor, not a throttle, but even that makes me feel much safer at red lights. I'm more aware of my surroundings than vehicles, so I can usually start seconds earlier than them, plus get up to speed quite fast with my motor.
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:38 AM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
After that I was dependent on buses, but then my bus service degraded and I was simply miserable. Fast forward to 2020. I got my pandemic stimulus check and immediately went and got an ebike.
My ebike is not a cargo bike. It's barely even recognizable as an ebike because it's quite small and designed to look like a commuter analog bike. Yet I do most of my shopping on it. I only have two panniers but I generally don't buy any large items so I make do. I am obsessed with looking at cargo bikes online though. I love their clever designs, and love to see people carrying silly items like beer kegs or kiddie pools. I've looked into getting a trailer for my bike or getting a true cargo bike--even though I don't quite have a use case--but the problem I run up against is parking. Bike parking is lacking in general, so I can't imagine trying to park anything bigger. I'm not sure I even have room in my garage. If I lived in an apartment, it would be completely untenable.
Regarding throttles--I have a torque sensor, not a throttle, but even that makes me feel much safer at red lights. I'm more aware of my surroundings than vehicles, so I can usually start seconds earlier than them, plus get up to speed quite fast with my motor.
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:38 AM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe the Travoy?
Comparing the new to old model, going shopping with one.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:11 PM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Comparing the new to old model, going shopping with one.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:11 PM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Theory,
I'm not sure I agree with this (and that part of the report): Regardless, neighborhood-level distribution hubs would be pretty essential and I'd be curious what incentives could move UPS, FedEx, et al. to switch to this model in dense areas.
Why build hubs? They already have trucks. Park the truck (rented spots, not blocking traffic), roll out the bike(s), and deliver.
It'd change the logistics in terms of loading and staffing delivery, but it's a variation of what my (beloved) USPS carrier does today. He stops somewhere easy to park or close to an address with large packages, then gets out and walks up and down the block delivering from a shoulder bag, then jumps in and drives to the next stop. One side of this block is aprox 1 bag of mail.
It'd be better with more walking/e-biking, but it seems like usps has figured out how to distribute trucks and urban carriers - adding a 2nd carrier and cargo ebikes could allow them to use the truck as a mobile base without building new infrastructure, and then adapt as patterns change.
In very dense areas, I'd expect buildings to accommodate delivery trucks the sane way they accommodate trash/recycle/compost for their residents (ie pull-through, parking, or other (small) "bulk" cargo transfer method).
I realize this sounds whiny, but why the heck should taxpayers build infrastructure for amazon? Amazon should build their own hubs... and be encouraged to do so through aggressive parking/blocking traffic/etc enforcement. I can't figure out a way to protect drivers, but I'd look to publicize the crackdown due to safety risks, injuries, etc, and message hard that it's a company issue, not a 'bad driver' issue.
posted by esoteric things at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure I agree with this (and that part of the report): Regardless, neighborhood-level distribution hubs would be pretty essential and I'd be curious what incentives could move UPS, FedEx, et al. to switch to this model in dense areas.
Why build hubs? They already have trucks. Park the truck (rented spots, not blocking traffic), roll out the bike(s), and deliver.
It'd change the logistics in terms of loading and staffing delivery, but it's a variation of what my (beloved) USPS carrier does today. He stops somewhere easy to park or close to an address with large packages, then gets out and walks up and down the block delivering from a shoulder bag, then jumps in and drives to the next stop. One side of this block is aprox 1 bag of mail.
It'd be better with more walking/e-biking, but it seems like usps has figured out how to distribute trucks and urban carriers - adding a 2nd carrier and cargo ebikes could allow them to use the truck as a mobile base without building new infrastructure, and then adapt as patterns change.
In very dense areas, I'd expect buildings to accommodate delivery trucks the sane way they accommodate trash/recycle/compost for their residents (ie pull-through, parking, or other (small) "bulk" cargo transfer method).
I realize this sounds whiny, but why the heck should taxpayers build infrastructure for amazon? Amazon should build their own hubs... and be encouraged to do so through aggressive parking/blocking traffic/etc enforcement. I can't figure out a way to protect drivers, but I'd look to publicize the crackdown due to safety risks, injuries, etc, and message hard that it's a company issue, not a 'bad driver' issue.
posted by esoteric things at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
I vote for 'by building robust bike infrastructure of the kind that makes it safer and more practical for everyone.' It's hard to imagine FedEx and UPS putting loaded down cargo bikes on the roads here to joust with traffic. Except in the handful of areas that already do have bike messengers, like Downtown LA proper. At the point that it becomes a legitimately better last mile solution, those companies will figure out the logistics themselves.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:54 AM on October 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:54 AM on October 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
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I really like it (generally), I'm getting used to using it for most my local trips and marketing, and it's making me covet all kinds of fancier e-bikes, especially cargo bikes or those with enough oomph to pull a trailer (with decent range).
But realistically, I'm not sure I'll ever be the kind of guy who will actually use a bike (in LA) to shop for more than anything that fits in two grocery bag panniers or go more than a few miles away from home. (Which this bike is adequate for, for as long as its components last.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:04 AM on October 18, 2023