Heck with it, we'll just go build our own electric truck.
October 26, 2023 11:25 AM Subscribe
Please enjoy Edison Motor's first demonstration of their electric semi running under load, silently hauling over 100,000 pounds of weird Sherman-Tank/Chevy thing, and 45 minutes explaining the design and engineering decisions around it.
Assuming they can easily batteryify it, I would think that this would be a useful halfway platform. As long as the all-electric drivetrain doesn't care where it gets it's electricity from, you could swap out the diesel generator for batteries at a later date without too much fuss.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 11:57 AM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 11:57 AM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
it's probably better than the coal plant making the electricity
Canada produces only about 8% of their electricity with coal (and it's estimated to be down to 1% by 2040)
In the US it's about 20%, and dropping every year (coal and nuclear generate about the same amount now, with wind set to surpass both in about two years)
But from the video it is clear that Canadian trucking runs primarily on plaid.
posted by gwint at 12:00 PM on October 26, 2023 [21 favorites]
Canada produces only about 8% of their electricity with coal (and it's estimated to be down to 1% by 2040)
In the US it's about 20%, and dropping every year (coal and nuclear generate about the same amount now, with wind set to surpass both in about two years)
But from the video it is clear that Canadian trucking runs primarily on plaid.
posted by gwint at 12:00 PM on October 26, 2023 [21 favorites]
you could easily swap out the diesel generator for batteries at a later date without too much fuss.
They do talk about a hybrid mode, generator plus batteries like a non-plug-in-hybrid -- one of their concerns is that batteries don't work well at non-optimal temperatures (particularly too cold, which is sadly a Canada thing), but the least-effective part of the generator is waste heat. That waste heat can be used to control the battery temperature, so that they remain very efficient despite ambient temperature. Run the generator to charge batteries, use the heat to keep them optimal, shut off the generator when not needed because the other least-efficient thing is running the generator when it's not actually turning the tires.
I didn't watch the whole thing but jumped around to important parts, and some of their estimates of how efficient things are is a bit over the top, but they do seem to have the goal of high performance with maximum efficiency and are looking at it from all angles.
posted by AzraelBrown at 12:05 PM on October 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
They do talk about a hybrid mode, generator plus batteries like a non-plug-in-hybrid -- one of their concerns is that batteries don't work well at non-optimal temperatures (particularly too cold, which is sadly a Canada thing), but the least-effective part of the generator is waste heat. That waste heat can be used to control the battery temperature, so that they remain very efficient despite ambient temperature. Run the generator to charge batteries, use the heat to keep them optimal, shut off the generator when not needed because the other least-efficient thing is running the generator when it's not actually turning the tires.
I didn't watch the whole thing but jumped around to important parts, and some of their estimates of how efficient things are is a bit over the top, but they do seem to have the goal of high performance with maximum efficiency and are looking at it from all angles.
posted by AzraelBrown at 12:05 PM on October 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is about twice as efficient as a regular diesel-cycle on-road engine too, so it's a very significant carbon reduction already. I've been following the guys for a while. None of this is ground breaking technology, but the implementation is the first of its kind for an on-road market and that's pretty big.
I'd much rather this for the next decade, than a fake truck rolling down a hill.
posted by bonehead at 12:18 PM on October 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'd much rather this for the next decade, than a fake truck rolling down a hill.
posted by bonehead at 12:18 PM on October 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
It's as they said -- this is what diesel electric locomotives have been doing for decades, they're just doing it with lithium batteries on a truck frame. Almost everything they're using is stock parts. They welded it out of metal plates cut with an angle grinder. It's the best kind of idea, a proven one, just in a different form factor. They seem like smart guys, I wish them well in their endeavours.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:23 PM on October 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:23 PM on October 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
A few seconds in I was, like, "Are these guys Canadians? They sound like Canadians."
But I'm still not sure which part of the country they're from. Guys from the Maritimes who moved to Alberta, maybe?
posted by clawsoon at 12:32 PM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
But I'm still not sure which part of the country they're from. Guys from the Maritimes who moved to Alberta, maybe?
posted by clawsoon at 12:32 PM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
The other sucky thing about batteries is that they take up most of your freight capacity. One of the first big buyers of Tesla trucks is Pepsi in Los Angeles. They're using them to ship... potato chips, which are mostly air.
Long range, plug-in freight won't be a real thing until batteries reach the energy density of diesel fuel.
posted by klanawa at 12:38 PM on October 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Long range, plug-in freight won't be a real thing until batteries reach the energy density of diesel fuel.
posted by klanawa at 12:38 PM on October 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
until batteries reach the energy density of diesel fuel
They can have a lower energy density due to greater efficiency.
posted by pipeski at 12:43 PM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
They can have a lower energy density due to greater efficiency.
posted by pipeski at 12:43 PM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
These guys have been hyping this "electric truck" in a misleading way for a while and it seems pretty cynical and intentional at this point. This diesel-electric technology is very much commonplace in large mine haul trucks (which are also starting to go battery electric), so this is hardly a big change.
Meanwhile, actual truck manufacturers, like Volvo, are already making battery electric trucks (for a somewhat different market, but still with 400km+ range).
posted by ssg at 1:00 PM on October 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Meanwhile, actual truck manufacturers, like Volvo, are already making battery electric trucks (for a somewhat different market, but still with 400km+ range).
posted by ssg at 1:00 PM on October 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
MetaFilter: Canadian trucking runs primarily on plaid
posted by Quasirandom at 1:08 PM on October 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Quasirandom at 1:08 PM on October 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
At one point they say that they expect to mostly do retrofit business. It'll be interesting to see if they're able to get that side of the business going.
posted by clawsoon at 1:09 PM on October 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 1:09 PM on October 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Their discussion of funding is interesting, where they're not looking for an injection of VC cash to go big right away. I hadn't thought before about how the involvement of so many tech people in electric vehicles has pushed funding expectations in the web company direction of big funding, big marketing, big growth, all happening much faster than traditional industry development.
Maybe they'll end up with a business where they do a few dozen retrofits a year and be content with that.
posted by clawsoon at 1:30 PM on October 26, 2023
Maybe they'll end up with a business where they do a few dozen retrofits a year and be content with that.
posted by clawsoon at 1:30 PM on October 26, 2023
the web company direction of big funding, big marketing, big growth
...which has also led in the web company direction of big scams in the electric vehicle industry, where the main goal of the company seems to be to make the founder rich with flashy presentations to VCs.
There's obviously some purposeful construction to their marketing persona, making sure they hit all the "real trucker" and "not a girly vehicle" points, but they do seem to have decided that they want the fate of their company to be decided in truck stop conversations rather than powerpoint presentations.
posted by clawsoon at 1:45 PM on October 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
...which has also led in the web company direction of big scams in the electric vehicle industry, where the main goal of the company seems to be to make the founder rich with flashy presentations to VCs.
There's obviously some purposeful construction to their marketing persona, making sure they hit all the "real trucker" and "not a girly vehicle" points, but they do seem to have decided that they want the fate of their company to be decided in truck stop conversations rather than powerpoint presentations.
posted by clawsoon at 1:45 PM on October 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Toyota Inks Deal to Mass Produce Solid State EV Batteries With 932-Mile Range
posted by gwint at 1:58 PM on October 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by gwint at 1:58 PM on October 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
They can have a lower energy density due to greater efficiency.
They need to have a higher energy density.
posted by klanawa at 2:03 PM on October 26, 2023
They need to have a higher energy density.
posted by klanawa at 2:03 PM on October 26, 2023
Toyota Inks Deal to Mass Produce Solid State EV Batteries With 932-Mile Range
There's a lot of "aims to", "will", and "eventually" in that article. Everything might work out for them, but right now they seem to be a lot closer to "develop a plan to figure out how to mass produce" than they are to "mass produce".
posted by clawsoon at 2:13 PM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
There's a lot of "aims to", "will", and "eventually" in that article. Everything might work out for them, but right now they seem to be a lot closer to "develop a plan to figure out how to mass produce" than they are to "mass produce".
posted by clawsoon at 2:13 PM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Toyota Inks Deal to Mass Produce Solid State EV Batteries With 932-Mile Range
Toyota has been making announcements about their super awesome battery technology and EVs coming any day now, for years and years. I think it's all vapour and they're full of shit.
posted by other barry at 2:54 PM on October 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Toyota has been making announcements about their super awesome battery technology and EVs coming any day now, for years and years. I think it's all vapour and they're full of shit.
posted by other barry at 2:54 PM on October 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
The old Toyota CEO, who stepped down earlier this year, is running around saying "I told you EVs were a fad" but the new CEO seems to be going heavy on hybrids.
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:57 PM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:57 PM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
The old Toyota CEO, .... the new CEO seems to be going heavy on hybrids.
The firm has announced an Ammonia engine.
posted by rough ashlar at 4:10 PM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
The firm has announced an Ammonia engine.
posted by rough ashlar at 4:10 PM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Something that’s really interesting about the Edison trucks is that every part that’s not part of the new drivetrain uses the old standard interchangeable parts that every truck until the 80s used. So if you break a taillight, it’s a 30 dollar part available anywhere, instead of a 400 dollar part only available from freightliner.
posted by rockindata at 4:16 PM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by rockindata at 4:16 PM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
If you'd told me 10 years ago that GM and Ford would be building electric vehicles while Toyota would be going around claiming EVs can't possibly work and we instead need some kind of magic hopium, I would never have believe you. But here we are.
posted by ssg at 4:22 PM on October 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ssg at 4:22 PM on October 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
The firm has announced an Ammonia engine.
I don't know if it is still the case, but a big part of Japan's strategy to cut emissions was to transition to ammonia as a fuel. This is a somewhat indirect way of switching to hydrogen where the hydrogen is generated in countries with abundant renewables (or otherwise low carbon hydrogen) and shipped to Japan in the form of ammonia. So an ammonia engine is not completely out of left field: it fits with their national strategy to de-carbonize power-plants and transportation.
posted by selenized at 4:23 PM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't know if it is still the case, but a big part of Japan's strategy to cut emissions was to transition to ammonia as a fuel. This is a somewhat indirect way of switching to hydrogen where the hydrogen is generated in countries with abundant renewables (or otherwise low carbon hydrogen) and shipped to Japan in the form of ammonia. So an ammonia engine is not completely out of left field: it fits with their national strategy to de-carbonize power-plants and transportation.
posted by selenized at 4:23 PM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm probably nuts. I'm no EV engineer and no longer drive commercial trucks. But OTR semi's seem to me like the perfect case for battery-swap recharging. All the solutions I've seen for that seem like absurd overkill.
I don't understand the need for automation, gantry cranes, or most of the expensive components that have been proposed for this. It seems to my inexperienced self that you could get away with a stack, or maybe a rack, of large, interchangeable "boxes of batteries" behind the cab and ahead of the 5th wheel. As far as I can see, the only requirements would be that each unit is small enough to be handled by a forklift and placed so that it can be reached from alongside the assembled truck.
The difference in wage between a certified forklift operator and a fuel station attendant is significant, but pretty tiny compared to the capital required for more complicated systems. I'd think space and clearance would make retrofitting an existing trailer complicated or impossible, but for new builds there is plenty of opportunity to leave space for a collection of battery units: see the size of some current sleepers.
A Freightliner e-cascadia apparently has about a 440 kWh battery and claims a range of 230 miles. 100 kWh are reported as 1200 pounds? So even assuming really significant overhead for the structure to build swappable modules, you might be talking about 7000 pounds? A significant impact in an 80,000 pound trailer, but it doesn't seem insurmountable. And they could be changed in two forklift loads for a modest sized forklift, four for quite a small one. It doesn't seem like a lot of downtime: pumping 150 gallons of diesel takes a fair bit of time, too.
posted by CHoldredge at 4:46 PM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't understand the need for automation, gantry cranes, or most of the expensive components that have been proposed for this. It seems to my inexperienced self that you could get away with a stack, or maybe a rack, of large, interchangeable "boxes of batteries" behind the cab and ahead of the 5th wheel. As far as I can see, the only requirements would be that each unit is small enough to be handled by a forklift and placed so that it can be reached from alongside the assembled truck.
The difference in wage between a certified forklift operator and a fuel station attendant is significant, but pretty tiny compared to the capital required for more complicated systems. I'd think space and clearance would make retrofitting an existing trailer complicated or impossible, but for new builds there is plenty of opportunity to leave space for a collection of battery units: see the size of some current sleepers.
A Freightliner e-cascadia apparently has about a 440 kWh battery and claims a range of 230 miles. 100 kWh are reported as 1200 pounds? So even assuming really significant overhead for the structure to build swappable modules, you might be talking about 7000 pounds? A significant impact in an 80,000 pound trailer, but it doesn't seem insurmountable. And they could be changed in two forklift loads for a modest sized forklift, four for quite a small one. It doesn't seem like a lot of downtime: pumping 150 gallons of diesel takes a fair bit of time, too.
posted by CHoldredge at 4:46 PM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Janus Electric in Australia is doing truck EV conversions, replacing the fuel tanks with rectangular battery packs swappable with a standard forklift.
posted by other barry at 4:49 PM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by other barry at 4:49 PM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
(I may have misunderstood the thrust of pipeski's comment, above.)
posted by klanawa at 4:55 PM on October 26, 2023
posted by klanawa at 4:55 PM on October 26, 2023
This diesel-electric technology is very much commonplace in large mine haul trucks (which are also starting to go battery electric), so this is hardly a big change.
Given how common they are in the big mine haul trucks, I've always wondered why diesel-electric hasn't been viable for OTR trucks. I've figured it was probably a weight issue, where the added weight didn't pan out in terms of efficiency.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:02 PM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Given how common they are in the big mine haul trucks, I've always wondered why diesel-electric hasn't been viable for OTR trucks. I've figured it was probably a weight issue, where the added weight didn't pan out in terms of efficiency.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:02 PM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
other barry, well, that's me looking pretty silly with my endless speculation just as you were posting a link to reality. That's really cool to see. Thanks! At least I know that if it's a crazy idea, I'm not the only crazy person around.
posted by CHoldredge at 5:05 PM on October 26, 2023
posted by CHoldredge at 5:05 PM on October 26, 2023
Given how common they are in the big mine haul trucks, I've always wondered why diesel-electric hasn't been viable for OTR trucks. I've figured it was probably a weight issue, where the added weight didn't pan out in terms of efficiency.
But the Chevy Volt, which can operate in gas-electric mode, with the motor directly coupled to the wheels or a mix of both at once, certainly shows that it is possible, at least for a car, and it really isn't that heavy. I suspect for your typical tractor-trailer on the highway, there just isn't much efficiency to be gained there because there isn't much heavy acceleration or braking. It would probably make sense in an urban environment, but straight battery electric would be a wiser choice for urban use at this point.
I bet that for logging trucks, battery electric would make a lot of sense because they are often headed downhill loaded and uphill empty (there's a battery electric mine haul truck in Switzerland that never needs to charge because it's moving rock downhill and heading uphill empty). Unfortunately, the purchasers in the logging truck market are likely deeply conservative when it comes to new technology.
posted by ssg at 5:40 PM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
But the Chevy Volt, which can operate in gas-electric mode, with the motor directly coupled to the wheels or a mix of both at once, certainly shows that it is possible, at least for a car, and it really isn't that heavy. I suspect for your typical tractor-trailer on the highway, there just isn't much efficiency to be gained there because there isn't much heavy acceleration or braking. It would probably make sense in an urban environment, but straight battery electric would be a wiser choice for urban use at this point.
I bet that for logging trucks, battery electric would make a lot of sense because they are often headed downhill loaded and uphill empty (there's a battery electric mine haul truck in Switzerland that never needs to charge because it's moving rock downhill and heading uphill empty). Unfortunately, the purchasers in the logging truck market are likely deeply conservative when it comes to new technology.
posted by ssg at 5:40 PM on October 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have worked on too many ammonia fires* to think ammonia should have any future as a general use fuel.
*one is too many. I've seen a handful in my career and they rarely end without someone dead.
posted by bonehead at 5:46 PM on October 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
*one is too many. I've seen a handful in my career and they rarely end without someone dead.
posted by bonehead at 5:46 PM on October 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
One of their major concerns was torque. There's a cute theme in a lot of their videos in talking to clients where they discover what they thought might matter to their clients turns out to be less important that other considerations. In this case, they wanted to be sure that the trucks could haul trailers off of the slopes that they currently work, figuring that the more torque=safer work argument would be the winner. However, when they went to the potential customers, that meant to them that they could then possibly work or more adverse slopes with conventional wheeled trucks where now they have to use skidders. And so save money.
posted by bonehead at 5:49 PM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bonehead at 5:49 PM on October 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
In their build videos, the key enabling tech piece was the electric motor/axle assembly that fir the size needed for an on-road tractor. There wasn't anyone selling the system with the torque or durability they needed to do the job. They found someone who did supply one in NA, but they would only sell to an established manufacturer. Edison then had to go direct to China and source their own drive train. So Edison went from a potential customer to a competitor to the unnamed OEM. That's Edison's secret sauce, their drivetrain. Everything else is COTS.
posted by bonehead at 5:53 PM on October 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 5:53 PM on October 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Back when I was thinking about battery-electric trucking, I wondered about mandatory downtime for long-haul drivers vs battery charge time.
If you had a battery pack able to power through a standard shift, which then required the driver to pull over and plug in for eight hours...
That would at least take care of some of the emissions from those truck stops out West with a row of twenty diesel tractor units, all idling to power the AC and TV in the sleeper cab whole the drivers take their Union Eight.
Plug them in to shore power instead. Would also make those truck stops a good place to station your 'oh shit giant lithium battery fire' crews.
posted by bartleby at 8:22 PM on October 26, 2023
If you had a battery pack able to power through a standard shift, which then required the driver to pull over and plug in for eight hours...
That would at least take care of some of the emissions from those truck stops out West with a row of twenty diesel tractor units, all idling to power the AC and TV in the sleeper cab whole the drivers take their Union Eight.
Plug them in to shore power instead. Would also make those truck stops a good place to station your 'oh shit giant lithium battery fire' crews.
posted by bartleby at 8:22 PM on October 26, 2023
I love the idea of battery-electric vehicles, but there are applications where they just don't make sense, or where they might make sense at some point in the future but not now. (LIke apartment dwellers with no place to charge an EV...) This kind of hybrid truck makes so much sense. I love that it's built by guys with actual experience who are using normal existing parts wherever possible. It's designed to fit into the ecosystem rather than trying to completely replace it. It's not a complete pure and final solution, but it's an improvement over what we currently have and it's something that can work today. Perfect is the enemy of the good.
posted by technodelic at 8:35 PM on October 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by technodelic at 8:35 PM on October 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
oh geez there's many a timbit went into the construction of that beaut
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:08 AM on October 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:08 AM on October 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I love that it's built by guys with actual experience who are using normal existing parts wherever possible
That was far and away my favourite part too. Talking about the door latch, saying you could not just buy one off the shelf anywhere, “you could probably find one in this junkyard”.
posted by mhoye at 5:03 AM on October 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
That was far and away my favourite part too. Talking about the door latch, saying you could not just buy one off the shelf anywhere, “you could probably find one in this junkyard”.
posted by mhoye at 5:03 AM on October 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
ssg: I bet that for logging trucks, battery electric would make a lot of sense because they are often headed downhill loaded and uphill empty (there's a battery electric mine haul truck in Switzerland that never needs to charge because it's moving rock downhill and heading uphill empty). Unfortunately, the purchasers in the logging truck market are likely deeply conservative when it comes to new technology.
Youtube put this video in my feed, where they say that they're using regenerative braking, which is great for logging trucks going down a mountain full and then back up empty.
...but then they say that the mills in BC have consolidated, so they have to do a longer trip instead of just going down and up again. "The logging truck is still going to use about two and a half megawatts of power to get through a full shift."
(I assume he meant two and a half megawatt-hours of energy, which would mean averaging 200-400 horsepower all day depending on how long the shift is.)
posted by clawsoon at 5:31 AM on October 27, 2023
Youtube put this video in my feed, where they say that they're using regenerative braking, which is great for logging trucks going down a mountain full and then back up empty.
...but then they say that the mills in BC have consolidated, so they have to do a longer trip instead of just going down and up again. "The logging truck is still going to use about two and a half megawatts of power to get through a full shift."
(I assume he meant two and a half megawatt-hours of energy, which would mean averaging 200-400 horsepower all day depending on how long the shift is.)
posted by clawsoon at 5:31 AM on October 27, 2023
ssg: Meanwhile, actual truck manufacturers, like Volvo, are already making battery electric trucks (for a somewhat different market, but still with 400km+ range).
Another video that Youtube threw up in my feed. In this one they take a quick look at a Volvo at some kind of exhibition and note that its axle setup is illegal in their part of Canada. So, yeah, different market.
posted by clawsoon at 5:41 AM on October 27, 2023
Another video that Youtube threw up in my feed. In this one they take a quick look at a Volvo at some kind of exhibition and note that its axle setup is illegal in their part of Canada. So, yeah, different market.
posted by clawsoon at 5:41 AM on October 27, 2023
The logging truck is still going to use about two and a half megawatts of power to get through a full shift
The swappable battery packs in Janus-fitted trucks are good for 700kWh each if I recall correctly, and the trucks have two each, so a Janus-fitted logging rig could do a 2.5MWh shift with two battery swaps, each of which can be done with a forklift in under two minutes.
posted by flabdablet at 5:49 AM on October 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
The swappable battery packs in Janus-fitted trucks are good for 700kWh each if I recall correctly, and the trucks have two each, so a Janus-fitted logging rig could do a 2.5MWh shift with two battery swaps, each of which can be done with a forklift in under two minutes.
posted by flabdablet at 5:49 AM on October 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
so a Janus-fitted logging rig could do a 2.5MWh shift with two battery swaps, each of which can be done with a forklift in under two minutes.
I'm guessing the challenge there would be building out the infrastructure for a relatively small market of independent owner-operators who are mostly driving far away from major routes. You could maybe do it if you had a fleet of battery trucks fanning out to appropriate points on the logging roads every day to resupply the logging trucks?
posted by clawsoon at 6:18 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm guessing the challenge there would be building out the infrastructure for a relatively small market of independent owner-operators who are mostly driving far away from major routes. You could maybe do it if you had a fleet of battery trucks fanning out to appropriate points on the logging roads every day to resupply the logging trucks?
posted by clawsoon at 6:18 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
(I assume he meant two and a half megawatt-hours of energy, which would mean averaging 200-400 horsepower all day depending on how long the shift is.)
That number sounds pretty suspicious. No way is a logging truck running anywhere near a constant 400hp for eight hours. That would be running pretty near flat out for eight hours straight. That's definitely not happening.
Or looked at another way, in an electric car, you use about 2.5kWh where you would use a litre of gasoline (there's a lot more energy in a litre of fuel, but engines are not very efficient). So if we applied the same equivalency, that would suggest a logging truck that uses 2.5MWh per shift would be using the equivalent of 1000 litres of gasoline or more than 900 litres of diesel. There is no way your typical logging truck is using 900 litres of diesel in a shift.
posted by ssg at 8:31 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
That number sounds pretty suspicious. No way is a logging truck running anywhere near a constant 400hp for eight hours. That would be running pretty near flat out for eight hours straight. That's definitely not happening.
Or looked at another way, in an electric car, you use about 2.5kWh where you would use a litre of gasoline (there's a lot more energy in a litre of fuel, but engines are not very efficient). So if we applied the same equivalency, that would suggest a logging truck that uses 2.5MWh per shift would be using the equivalent of 1000 litres of gasoline or more than 900 litres of diesel. There is no way your typical logging truck is using 900 litres of diesel in a shift.
posted by ssg at 8:31 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
There is no way your typical logging truck is using 900 litres of diesel in a shift.
As another point of reference, he says in one of the videos that a logging truck burns $20,000 of fuel in a month. From a quick Google, I'm seeing $2/liter for diesel in BC, or about 10,000 liters per month. So, yeah, even that number - which might also have some exaggeration built into it - would suggest closer to 300-500 liters per day, depending on how many days per month you're working.
posted by clawsoon at 8:39 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
As another point of reference, he says in one of the videos that a logging truck burns $20,000 of fuel in a month. From a quick Google, I'm seeing $2/liter for diesel in BC, or about 10,000 liters per month. So, yeah, even that number - which might also have some exaggeration built into it - would suggest closer to 300-500 liters per day, depending on how many days per month you're working.
posted by clawsoon at 8:39 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Another article: The extra-long logging haul:
posted by clawsoon at 8:46 AM on October 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
“They tell us we should be able to do the return trip in 13.5 hours. It takes closer to 15 or 16 if the weather is crap,” Shane said...This is all anecdotal, but it sounds like the industry is one where fudging the numbers to hide overwork from regulators is routine, so firm data is going to be somewhat hard to come by.
“My fuel consumption is going to be anywhere between 500 and 750 litres of diesel a day. You’re looking at a minimum of a thousand bucks a day in gas”...
posted by clawsoon at 8:46 AM on October 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is all anecdotal, but it sounds like the industry is one where fudging the numbers to hide overwork from regulators is routine, so firm data is going to be somewhat hard to come by.
Hopefully it is better in Canada, but in the US driving log trucks is typically a low-margin, low-pay job. They drive the trucks flat out to make up time and run very long days. I can't imagine many are running with honest log books.
One of the advantages of diesel is that you can not just fill up at any filling station, but also you can fill up from a transfer tank in the bed of a pickup, or from a larger tank positioned at a remote staging area where all the other heavy equipment gets fueled. So for operating in remote areas there is a lot of flexibility that would be difficult to replicate with replaceable battery packs; their choice of diesel-electric makes a lot of sense for their application.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:53 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hopefully it is better in Canada, but in the US driving log trucks is typically a low-margin, low-pay job. They drive the trucks flat out to make up time and run very long days. I can't imagine many are running with honest log books.
One of the advantages of diesel is that you can not just fill up at any filling station, but also you can fill up from a transfer tank in the bed of a pickup, or from a larger tank positioned at a remote staging area where all the other heavy equipment gets fueled. So for operating in remote areas there is a lot of flexibility that would be difficult to replicate with replaceable battery packs; their choice of diesel-electric makes a lot of sense for their application.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:53 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
The logging roads up and down the Canadian mountains aren't where you'd need battery swap stations. As frequently pointed out, getting up and down those roads is pretty much free because the trucks are empty on the way uphill and fully loaded on the way down; the downhill runs will regen way more energy into the batteries than the uphill runs consume. Loaded trucks will exit the forest at the bottom of the mountain fully charged, so all you'd need is one battery charge and swap bay at the distant sawmill and another near where the trucks park overnight and you should be good to go.
In fact the energy imbalance between ten tons of truck driving up a mountain and fifty tons coming back down is so large that you could probably add a forklift to the standard landing machinery collection and run all your wood processing excavators, loaders and whatnot on the partly-discharged battery packs that arrive with the empty trucks, swapping mostly-discharged packs back into them to be regeneratively charged on their way back down to the lowlands.
posted by flabdablet at 9:31 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
In fact the energy imbalance between ten tons of truck driving up a mountain and fifty tons coming back down is so large that you could probably add a forklift to the standard landing machinery collection and run all your wood processing excavators, loaders and whatnot on the partly-discharged battery packs that arrive with the empty trucks, swapping mostly-discharged packs back into them to be regeneratively charged on their way back down to the lowlands.
posted by flabdablet at 9:31 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
> This is all anecdotal, but it sounds like the industry is one where fudging the numbers to hide overwork from regulators is routine, so firm data is going to be somewhat hard to come by.
This reminds me of the time I was driving a rural road late at night, and encountered a logging truck driving the opposite direction with its lights off. No idea what regulation they might have been violating (by driving late?) but guessing they weren't supposed to be out there.
posted by Ansible at 10:09 AM on October 27, 2023
This reminds me of the time I was driving a rural road late at night, and encountered a logging truck driving the opposite direction with its lights off. No idea what regulation they might have been violating (by driving late?) but guessing they weren't supposed to be out there.
posted by Ansible at 10:09 AM on October 27, 2023
If you'd told me 10 years ago that GM and Ford would be building electric vehicles while Toyota would be going around claiming EVs can't possibly work and we instead need some kind of magic hopium, I would never have believe you. But here we are.
Toyota's objection to EVs isn't that EV's "can't work." It's that
1. there probably isn't enough lithium in the world to meet demand for lithium-iron batteries for a worldwide EV fleet and
2. there isn't enough electricity capacity either
3. Toyota, more than any other major car manufacturer, sells to markets where support for EVs is nonexistent (like sub-Saharan Africa, a market Toyota dominates)
All of these points are fair. Sodium-ion batteries are still very, very new technology but will go a long way towards eventually addressing problem 1, although they'll still cause nickel and manganese prices to skyrocket. Problems 2 and 3 are really outside of Toyota's control for the most part, hence their concern.
posted by mightygodking at 2:44 PM on October 27, 2023
Toyota's objection to EVs isn't that EV's "can't work." It's that
1. there probably isn't enough lithium in the world to meet demand for lithium-iron batteries for a worldwide EV fleet and
2. there isn't enough electricity capacity either
3. Toyota, more than any other major car manufacturer, sells to markets where support for EVs is nonexistent (like sub-Saharan Africa, a market Toyota dominates)
All of these points are fair. Sodium-ion batteries are still very, very new technology but will go a long way towards eventually addressing problem 1, although they'll still cause nickel and manganese prices to skyrocket. Problems 2 and 3 are really outside of Toyota's control for the most part, hence their concern.
posted by mightygodking at 2:44 PM on October 27, 2023
In fact the energy imbalance between ten tons of truck driving up a mountain and fifty tons coming back down is so large that you could probably add a forklift to the standard landing machinery collection and run all your wood processing excavators, loaders and whatnot on the partly-discharged battery packs that arrive with the empty trucks, swapping mostly-discharged packs back into them to be regeneratively charged on their way back down to the lowlands.
I'd love to be wrong and see logging operations all switch out of using diesel, but I would be extremely surprised if this math came even close to working out. This is over-estimating the energy gained from log deck to mill (especially given that the scenario is not "cut high up on the mountain, drive downhill to the mill at the base of the mountain"). And it underplays how much energy is used by all the diesel-powered equipment to get the logs cut and decked.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:10 PM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'd love to be wrong and see logging operations all switch out of using diesel, but I would be extremely surprised if this math came even close to working out. This is over-estimating the energy gained from log deck to mill (especially given that the scenario is not "cut high up on the mountain, drive downhill to the mill at the base of the mountain"). And it underplays how much energy is used by all the diesel-powered equipment to get the logs cut and decked.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:10 PM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
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So, it's not a petroleum-free machine, but it's, in theory, using diesel fuel as efficiently as possible, so using the least amount of petroleum as possible. And, really, there's still enough hydrocarbon-burning electricity generation that it's probably better than the coal plant making the electricity that a Tesla is connected to.
So, this is very cool, marginally better for the environment but a positive solution for a specific use case.
posted by AzraelBrown at 11:43 AM on October 26, 2023 [16 favorites]