Our (Cross) Burning Love!
November 7, 2023 6:19 PM Subscribe
Q: "What was that romance book with the Nazi hero?" A: "Which one?" In 2021, the Vivian Awards, the romance world’s biggest honour, came under fire for giving one of its awards to a historical inspirational romance about a Confederate officer who participated in the massacre at Wounded Knee. In 2015, a finalist for the Best Inspirational Romance featured a Nazi concentration camp commandment falling for a Jewish prisoner, with both converting to Christianity as part of their happy-ever-after. Title from the comments section.
So, I really hate the genre of romance that is “And then they became born again and were saved from all their previous evil by the love of Christ”, and will not personally read it. However, I will say that I think this article does present a fundamental misunderstanding of that admittedly terrible genre.
People who go for that sort of thing want their heroes to start off as monsters, because the point is that the Ultimate Forgiveness of Jesus is for all people, no matter what they’ve done, as long as they accept God into their heart. My somewhat snarky guess is that this genre particularly appeals to people who have done terrible things in their own lives, or whose partners have, and who want to really believe that anyone can be redeemed. But so in that case, the worse the person starts as, the more they would be effective in that genre. The author is likely correct that it is a subgenre staple that the hero cannot change without the love of God.
I think it’s valid to provide a takedown of the subgenre - how much does it allow people to take no accountability for their actions as they plan to declare themselves born again and how much does it allow people to persist in their own racism as they wait for God to somehow save them from it without threat effort - but I don’t know that it’s entirely fair to do so as an atheist who isn’t engaging with the structure of the subgenre itself.
posted by corb at 6:57 PM on November 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
People who go for that sort of thing want their heroes to start off as monsters, because the point is that the Ultimate Forgiveness of Jesus is for all people, no matter what they’ve done, as long as they accept God into their heart. My somewhat snarky guess is that this genre particularly appeals to people who have done terrible things in their own lives, or whose partners have, and who want to really believe that anyone can be redeemed. But so in that case, the worse the person starts as, the more they would be effective in that genre. The author is likely correct that it is a subgenre staple that the hero cannot change without the love of God.
I think it’s valid to provide a takedown of the subgenre - how much does it allow people to take no accountability for their actions as they plan to declare themselves born again and how much does it allow people to persist in their own racism as they wait for God to somehow save them from it without threat effort - but I don’t know that it’s entirely fair to do so as an atheist who isn’t engaging with the structure of the subgenre itself.
posted by corb at 6:57 PM on November 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
Ah yes, the Nazi romance based on the book of Esther! I reviewed it here. Also, previously.
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 7:11 PM on November 7, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 7:11 PM on November 7, 2023 [17 favorites]
Ignoblesse Oblige
posted by y2karl at 7:30 PM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 7:30 PM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Plus ça change, corb... back in the day when I was doing graduate study in Spanish, I had to read several Tirso de Molina plays that turned on how much someone could get away with and still die saved.
One of 'em was the start of Don Juan/Don Giovanni. The one closer to this romance genre, though, is probably El condenado por desconfiado, which contrasts a faithful thief with a faithless monk. Their crimes are basically equivalent; it's the monk's lack of faith that damns him. (I mean. It's right in the title.)
posted by humbug at 8:33 PM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
One of 'em was the start of Don Juan/Don Giovanni. The one closer to this romance genre, though, is probably El condenado por desconfiado, which contrasts a faithful thief with a faithless monk. Their crimes are basically equivalent; it's the monk's lack of faith that damns him. (I mean. It's right in the title.)
posted by humbug at 8:33 PM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
so is it better to have committed atrocities and yet found love than to never have committed atrocities at all?
posted by philip-random at 9:20 PM on November 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 9:20 PM on November 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
My somewhat snarky guess is that this genre particularly appeals to people who have done terrible things in their own lives, or whose partners have, and who want to really believe that anyone can be redeemed.
No, it's (mostly) for people for whom terrible things done to the Other aren't quite real. It's analogous to teenagers who get into EXTREEEEEEEEEEEME edgy fiction/art, in considerable part because they're too young to appreciate the actual suffering involved, and then ten years later cover their eyes at the same material. It's a lot easier to accept forgiveness of things done to "hypothetical" people than to people whose humanity you actually viscerally feel. The repentance is generally quite formulaic for that reason, too.
posted by praemunire at 9:31 PM on November 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
No, it's (mostly) for people for whom terrible things done to the Other aren't quite real. It's analogous to teenagers who get into EXTREEEEEEEEEEEME edgy fiction/art, in considerable part because they're too young to appreciate the actual suffering involved, and then ten years later cover their eyes at the same material. It's a lot easier to accept forgiveness of things done to "hypothetical" people than to people whose humanity you actually viscerally feel. The repentance is generally quite formulaic for that reason, too.
posted by praemunire at 9:31 PM on November 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
Don’t like these sorts of books? Don’t read them.
This reaction to media criticism makes sense when the issue is one of personal taste: Oh, you don't like romance novels? No one asked you, go away.
It doesn't make sense as a reaction to people discussing the societal context or impact of problematic themes in a literary work. It's a knee-jerk dismissal of the validity of all literary criticism - and also, ironically, a rejection of the power of literature.
There can be disagreement about whether such criticisms are valid (e.g. corb bringing up interesting additional context), but I'm kind of getting tired of this idea that literature is just entertainment and any criticism is just "yucking people's yum." I can see this knee-jerk reaction has evolved as a defensive response against censorship and puritanism, but come on. We can be more nuanced than this. I believe in us.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:33 PM on November 7, 2023 [43 favorites]
This reaction to media criticism makes sense when the issue is one of personal taste: Oh, you don't like romance novels? No one asked you, go away.
It doesn't make sense as a reaction to people discussing the societal context or impact of problematic themes in a literary work. It's a knee-jerk dismissal of the validity of all literary criticism - and also, ironically, a rejection of the power of literature.
There can be disagreement about whether such criticisms are valid (e.g. corb bringing up interesting additional context), but I'm kind of getting tired of this idea that literature is just entertainment and any criticism is just "yucking people's yum." I can see this knee-jerk reaction has evolved as a defensive response against censorship and puritanism, but come on. We can be more nuanced than this. I believe in us.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:33 PM on November 7, 2023 [43 favorites]
I did RTFA, and, yeah, fug..... (and thanks to suburbanbeatnik for the "previously" link)
Wonder how long it'll take for some troll to novelize "The Night Porter" (using a new title, natch), give it an upbeat ending where both Nazi and Lucia find Jeezus, and have it end up being published and nominated for said awards.
posted by gtrwolf at 9:43 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Wonder how long it'll take for some troll to novelize "The Night Porter" (using a new title, natch), give it an upbeat ending where both Nazi and Lucia find Jeezus, and have it end up being published and nominated for said awards.
posted by gtrwolf at 9:43 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
a Nazi concentration camp commandment falling for a Jewish prisoner, with both converting to Christianity
I wonder what religion the commandant was before he converted?
I wonder what religion the commandant was before he converted?
Following a "gradual worsening of relations" [with organized religion] in late 1936, the Nazis supported Kirchenaustrittsbewegung ("movement to leave the church"). Although there was no top-down official directive to revoke church membership, some Nazi Party members started doing so voluntarily and put other members under pressure to follow their example. Those who left the churches were designated as Gottgläubig: they believed in a higher power, often a creator-God with a special interest in the German nation, but did not belong to any church, nor were they atheists. Many were Germanic neopagans. This movement, especially promoted by Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler, remained relatively small and by 1939, 3.5% of Germans identified as Gottgläubig; the overwhelming majority of 94.5% remained Protestant or Catholic, and only 1.5% did not profess any faith. - viaposted by fairmettle at 10:16 PM on November 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
Can I add another criticism to this dreck? I don't like "The Boy in The Striped Pyjamas" for exactly the same reason - THE AUTHOR IS COMPLETELY IGNORANT OF WHAT THE HELL WENT ON.
My great-uncles were imprisoned in Mauthausen concentration camp - my mother and aunt are still alive and can tell you about how one of the great-uncles escaped and was shot in front of them when he was betrayed to the Germans by collaborators. The other great-uncle died there.
There are people who know what happened, to whom it happened and how it happened and this completely ignores and insults the sheer grief that those people are still carrying. And they are still here and THEY WILL TELL YOU IF YOU HAVE THE DECENCY TO ASK
Yeah - do a bodice-ripper. Who knows? Who cares? and "Wuthering Heights" or "Jane Eyre" may give you some "authenticity".
But this - spit
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 10:39 PM on November 7, 2023 [23 favorites]
My great-uncles were imprisoned in Mauthausen concentration camp - my mother and aunt are still alive and can tell you about how one of the great-uncles escaped and was shot in front of them when he was betrayed to the Germans by collaborators. The other great-uncle died there.
There are people who know what happened, to whom it happened and how it happened and this completely ignores and insults the sheer grief that those people are still carrying. And they are still here and THEY WILL TELL YOU IF YOU HAVE THE DECENCY TO ASK
Yeah - do a bodice-ripper. Who knows? Who cares? and "Wuthering Heights" or "Jane Eyre" may give you some "authenticity".
But this - spit
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 10:39 PM on November 7, 2023 [23 favorites]
I wonder what religion the commandant was pbefore he converted?
I'm pretty sure that Catholics don't count as Christians for the people into this subgenre. I'm sure they can find a way to make Lutherans not count either.
posted by hoyland at 11:18 PM on November 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm pretty sure that Catholics don't count as Christians for the people into this subgenre. I'm sure they can find a way to make Lutherans not count either.
posted by hoyland at 11:18 PM on November 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
In the 50s and early 60s there was a specifically Israeli variety of pulp erotica called Stalag:
posted by jamjam at 11:25 PM on November 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
Stalag (Hebrew: סטאלג) was a short-lived genre of Nazi exploitation Holocaust pornography in Israel that flourished in the 1950s and early 1960s, and stopped at the time of the Eichmann Trial, due to a ban by the Israeli government.[1] These books were mainly about female German Nazi officers sexually abusing their male camp prisoners, yet they did not include any Jewish names to avoid taboos. They are no longer available in traditional publication format, but with the advent of the Internet they have been circulating via peer-to-peer file sharing.The enduring sexiness of Evil is one of humanity’s great tragic flaws.
posted by jamjam at 11:25 PM on November 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
Your kink is not my kink but your kink is okay literally Nazis.
posted by Dysk at 1:26 AM on November 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 1:26 AM on November 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
The most logical extension of this would be something like "he shot five people at a synagogue, can he find love with the daughter of one of his victims as he works to save his life and she works to save her soul?"
That's abhorrent. We instinctually feel just how disgusting a book premise that is. These books are the same, about similar people, just a little bit more in the past.
posted by Hactar at 1:47 AM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
That's abhorrent. We instinctually feel just how disgusting a book premise that is. These books are the same, about similar people, just a little bit more in the past.
posted by Hactar at 1:47 AM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I know you never read TFA's comments, but this one is good:
Why stop there? You can make a romance novel for any social conflict:
A romance where a member of Hamas falls in love with an Israeli settler. It's called "You Occupied My Heart!"
An insurrectionist falls for a BLM activist. It can be called "Woke Up In Love!"
A book banner and a librarian fall in love. It can be called "Turn The Page On Love!"
posted by signal at 3:18 AM on November 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
Why stop there? You can make a romance novel for any social conflict:
A romance where a member of Hamas falls in love with an Israeli settler. It's called "You Occupied My Heart!"
An insurrectionist falls for a BLM activist. It can be called "Woke Up In Love!"
A book banner and a librarian fall in love. It can be called "Turn The Page On Love!"
posted by signal at 3:18 AM on November 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
There's always that one person popping in to state in the most bland and dismissive tones that they don't see the problem with the content so nobody else should either.
He ran over 47 people protesting slavery. She's permanently crippled by his actions. Can love blossom in Driving Me Crazy?
he runs a white supremacy group. She's only a quarter Other. Can his common sense policies and aggressive affection overcome her woke programming and teach her the joys of dutiful wife and motherhood? Bravely feminist and pro life*, journey along Protagonist as she discovers God's Will for the chosen few in Whitewashing My Heart.
I'ma go be sick, yep.
*Edited an awkward typo, sorry
posted by Jacen at 5:04 AM on November 8, 2023
He ran over 47 people protesting slavery. She's permanently crippled by his actions. Can love blossom in Driving Me Crazy?
he runs a white supremacy group. She's only a quarter Other. Can his common sense policies and aggressive affection overcome her woke programming and teach her the joys of dutiful wife and motherhood? Bravely feminist and pro life*, journey along Protagonist as she discovers God's Will for the chosen few in Whitewashing My Heart.
I'ma go be sick, yep.
*Edited an awkward typo, sorry
posted by Jacen at 5:04 AM on November 8, 2023
Can I add another criticism to this dreck? I don't like "The Boy in The Striped Pyjamas" for exactly the same reason - THE AUTHOR IS COMPLETELY IGNORANT OF WHAT THE HELL WENT ON.john boyne has a long history of writing about stuff he's completely ignorant about and then getting all defensive about it. there's his transphobia for one, but there's also his book where he lifted a recipe for clothes dyeing from a guide for zelda breath of the wild.
---
re: born-again forgiveness, there's a movie called secret sunshine where the main character's child is murdered by someone, and one plot arc is that in her attempts to heal from that trauma she converts to christianity, and goes to prison to try and forgive the murderer... who has also already converted to christianity and become born again.
there is no romance but there is a rage-filled breakdown from the protagonist, as well as deconversion, so.
posted by i used to be someone else at 5:44 AM on November 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
An insurrectionist falls for a BLM activist. It can be called "Woke Up In Love!"
Last week I saw a lifted pickup with a huge "BLM" sticker on the back. I was like, "wow, you don't see that often, good for them!" and then I got closer at the next stoplight and saw that under the sticker in smaller text it said "Banging Local MILFs."
So, perhaps I found the main character for your novel? We just need his love interest now.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:06 AM on November 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
Last week I saw a lifted pickup with a huge "BLM" sticker on the back. I was like, "wow, you don't see that often, good for them!" and then I got closer at the next stoplight and saw that under the sticker in smaller text it said "Banging Local MILFs."
So, perhaps I found the main character for your novel? We just need his love interest now.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:06 AM on November 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
There are people who know what happened, to whom it happened and how it happened and this completely ignores and insults the sheer grief that those people are still carrying.
brings to mind something that was said to me over drinks a while back. She was a Historian (doctorate level) and at some point we got to discussing the difference between current events, recent history and just good ole fashioned history. Her line: "Current events is when you can still smell the smoke in the air. Recent history is when there are still people around who were there when it happened. History is once everybody involved is dead and buried ... but is it? Because if something is horrific enough, its poisons reach well beyond the grave, infect future generations. But even there, at some point, we're cracking jokes about The Black Death."
posted by philip-random at 7:54 AM on November 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
brings to mind something that was said to me over drinks a while back. She was a Historian (doctorate level) and at some point we got to discussing the difference between current events, recent history and just good ole fashioned history. Her line: "Current events is when you can still smell the smoke in the air. Recent history is when there are still people around who were there when it happened. History is once everybody involved is dead and buried ... but is it? Because if something is horrific enough, its poisons reach well beyond the grave, infect future generations. But even there, at some point, we're cracking jokes about The Black Death."
posted by philip-random at 7:54 AM on November 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
Why stop there? You can make a romance novel for any social conflict:
Strip: There were borders she never dreamed she would cross.
posted by pracowity at 8:23 AM on November 8, 2023
Strip: There were borders she never dreamed she would cross.
posted by pracowity at 8:23 AM on November 8, 2023
I'm pretty sure that Catholics don't count as Christians for the people into this subgenre
Yeah, because Catholicism doesn't negate your sins; you're forgiven for them if you repent but that repentance often takes the form of deeds ("good works"). In fact not only don't they count as Christians for people into that subgenre, I'm sure there's probably a mini sub-subgenre of specifically converting Catholics "suffering with their guilt" into "true Christians".
I think it's important to critique romance novels just as much as any other genre, though I do think it's important to do so with nuance: as a genre it has a history of particularly sexist criticism as "trash books" that only sad, lonely women enjoy.
An insurrectionist falls for a BLM activist. It can be called "Woke Up In Love!"
Romance as a genre does make hay frequently out of people on the opposite sides of social conflicts, though most of it goes along philip-random's definition of recent history and history; a lot of the proposed ones above probably would fit into the genre once that time has passed. There's a *lot* of "Two people on the opposite side of a war" novels out there both real and fantastical - Condeferate/Union, English/Scottish, vampire/werewolf, aristocrat/rebel. And there's a lot of broad differences in nuance, writing, and skill out there in how those are handled, which I think makes examples like these more egregious, but the problem is that often, because of genre discrimination, examples which are written well are often removed from the genre of romance and made "popular fiction", while the shitty ones remain.
For example - "All the Light We Cannot See" is, at its core, a romance between a blind girl involved with the French Resistance, and a Nazi soldier who has killed innocents. People aren't lining up in outrage over it, in fact it was on the NYT bestseller list for some time. However, it's written in a nuanced and morally ambiguous way and doesn't provide the HEA (Happily Ever After) that is a staple of romance genre fiction (though the television series comes closer to that)
Could there be a well written novel about a romance between a Nazi and a Jew that takes place in a concentration camp? I think there could, but it would have to be extremely well written, and involve sensitivity readers from the beginning of the process. It would have to ensure that it reckoned with the evil that the Nazi had done, in a way that isn't washed over with a "born again" conversion (which I feel there are real problems with for abovementioned reasons). Because there are - in real life as well as fiction - Nazis who realized they had been doing wrong and who changed their lives. There are Nazis who are recognized as Righteous Among the Nations, because they began saving Jews. Oskar Schindler was once arrested for kissing a Jewish girl - you could, I think, write a novel where the romance redeems a Nazi such that he begins saving Jews at great personal expense and difficulty.
The reason for outrage of the romance community to this book wasn't just 'romance between Nazi and Jew', it was specifically the incredibly terrible and offensive way that it was written. This writeup, from one of the founders of Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, goes into more of the specific problems with that book, and specifically, in "inspirational" romance books about the Holocaust, saying, "The heroine’s conversion at the end underscores the idea that the correct path is Christianity, erases her Jewish identity, and echoes the forced conversions of many Jews before, during, and after the Holocaust." The author, instead of making the Jew the one that redeems that Nazi, makes, in essence, the absolutely insane choice to make the Nazi the one who redeems the Jew by showing her the love of the Bible. (Here's a 'Reading Guide' for that book, where it reveals that...oh fuck I can't even paraphrase without cursing, so here's the quote:
posted by corb at 9:12 AM on November 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
Yeah, because Catholicism doesn't negate your sins; you're forgiven for them if you repent but that repentance often takes the form of deeds ("good works"). In fact not only don't they count as Christians for people into that subgenre, I'm sure there's probably a mini sub-subgenre of specifically converting Catholics "suffering with their guilt" into "true Christians".
I think it's important to critique romance novels just as much as any other genre, though I do think it's important to do so with nuance: as a genre it has a history of particularly sexist criticism as "trash books" that only sad, lonely women enjoy.
An insurrectionist falls for a BLM activist. It can be called "Woke Up In Love!"
Romance as a genre does make hay frequently out of people on the opposite sides of social conflicts, though most of it goes along philip-random's definition of recent history and history; a lot of the proposed ones above probably would fit into the genre once that time has passed. There's a *lot* of "Two people on the opposite side of a war" novels out there both real and fantastical - Condeferate/Union, English/Scottish, vampire/werewolf, aristocrat/rebel. And there's a lot of broad differences in nuance, writing, and skill out there in how those are handled, which I think makes examples like these more egregious, but the problem is that often, because of genre discrimination, examples which are written well are often removed from the genre of romance and made "popular fiction", while the shitty ones remain.
For example - "All the Light We Cannot See" is, at its core, a romance between a blind girl involved with the French Resistance, and a Nazi soldier who has killed innocents. People aren't lining up in outrage over it, in fact it was on the NYT bestseller list for some time. However, it's written in a nuanced and morally ambiguous way and doesn't provide the HEA (Happily Ever After) that is a staple of romance genre fiction (though the television series comes closer to that)
Could there be a well written novel about a romance between a Nazi and a Jew that takes place in a concentration camp? I think there could, but it would have to be extremely well written, and involve sensitivity readers from the beginning of the process. It would have to ensure that it reckoned with the evil that the Nazi had done, in a way that isn't washed over with a "born again" conversion (which I feel there are real problems with for abovementioned reasons). Because there are - in real life as well as fiction - Nazis who realized they had been doing wrong and who changed their lives. There are Nazis who are recognized as Righteous Among the Nations, because they began saving Jews. Oskar Schindler was once arrested for kissing a Jewish girl - you could, I think, write a novel where the romance redeems a Nazi such that he begins saving Jews at great personal expense and difficulty.
The reason for outrage of the romance community to this book wasn't just 'romance between Nazi and Jew', it was specifically the incredibly terrible and offensive way that it was written. This writeup, from one of the founders of Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, goes into more of the specific problems with that book, and specifically, in "inspirational" romance books about the Holocaust, saying, "The heroine’s conversion at the end underscores the idea that the correct path is Christianity, erases her Jewish identity, and echoes the forced conversions of many Jews before, during, and after the Holocaust." The author, instead of making the Jew the one that redeems that Nazi, makes, in essence, the absolutely insane choice to make the Nazi the one who redeems the Jew by showing her the love of the Bible. (Here's a 'Reading Guide' for that book, where it reveals that...oh fuck I can't even paraphrase without cursing, so here's the quote:
The Bible finds its way into Stella’s possession throughout the story, despite her repeated rejection. Finally, when she’s desperate and struggling to justify sending her people on the last death train before the Red Cross arrive, the Bible reappears to her. As she reads the words of John 3:16, she finally understands the depth of God’s love and knows what she must do.There are huge problems with the subgenre of inspirational romance, but I think also even for people who like that sort of thing, there are problems with conversion inspirational romance, and specifically, when you are considering writing a book where a majority religion converts a member of a minority religion to the 'true faith' or whatever, you should chuck that draft straight into the fire before you even get to the Holocaust.
posted by corb at 9:12 AM on November 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
I think praemunire has it right - it is always about an alien other.
My partner used to live with a woman who was into these. There was also the ones about Eastern European refugees and Soviet prison guards. She also liked the ones that were about heterosexual slave / master narratives - usually the man was the slave owner and the woman was a "beautiful mixed race" slave that he saves by teaching her to read and speak "like a lady". For her they were "uplifting escapism" and all about "the power of Christianity". I think there were ones about "fallen women" who were saved by a "good Christian widower with kids".
I'm pretty sure that Catholics don't count as Christians for the people into this subgenre. I'm sure they can find a way to make Lutherans not count either.
Speaking from experience, I know a lot of non-Christians tend to lump all Christians together but that is not how it works for some Christians. For a certain type of Evangelical, unless you come from an approved denomination, you're not really a Christian. As an example, my mother in law essentially sees Catholics as Satanists and if we had sent our kid to a Catholic school or baptised in the Church we would have been disowned.
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:13 AM on November 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
My partner used to live with a woman who was into these. There was also the ones about Eastern European refugees and Soviet prison guards. She also liked the ones that were about heterosexual slave / master narratives - usually the man was the slave owner and the woman was a "beautiful mixed race" slave that he saves by teaching her to read and speak "like a lady". For her they were "uplifting escapism" and all about "the power of Christianity". I think there were ones about "fallen women" who were saved by a "good Christian widower with kids".
I'm pretty sure that Catholics don't count as Christians for the people into this subgenre. I'm sure they can find a way to make Lutherans not count either.
Speaking from experience, I know a lot of non-Christians tend to lump all Christians together but that is not how it works for some Christians. For a certain type of Evangelical, unless you come from an approved denomination, you're not really a Christian. As an example, my mother in law essentially sees Catholics as Satanists and if we had sent our kid to a Catholic school or baptised in the Church we would have been disowned.
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:13 AM on November 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
As an example, my mother in law essentially sees Catholics as Satanists and if we had sent our kid to a Catholic school or baptised in the Church we would have been disowned.
Don't feel too weird about that. As someone raised in the Catholic Church (shudder), it's fully reciprocal.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:29 AM on November 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
Don't feel too weird about that. As someone raised in the Catholic Church (shudder), it's fully reciprocal.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:29 AM on November 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
For a certain type of Evangelical, unless you come from an approved denomination, you're not really a Christian. A
Not just evangelicals. When my aunt got married, I was never clear on which was the bigger scandal to my German protestant grandparents: that he was Catholic or that he was Italian.
I would also be careful with a phrase like approved denomination. It seems overbroad since for many of those 'evangelicals', the approved denomination consists entirely of the (mega)church they go to.
posted by kjs3 at 9:32 AM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not just evangelicals. When my aunt got married, I was never clear on which was the bigger scandal to my German protestant grandparents: that he was Catholic or that he was Italian.
I would also be careful with a phrase like approved denomination. It seems overbroad since for many of those 'evangelicals', the approved denomination consists entirely of the (mega)church they go to.
posted by kjs3 at 9:32 AM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
The author, instead of making the Jew the one that redeems that Nazi, makes, in essence, the absolutely insane choice to make the Nazi the one who redeems the Jew by showing her the love of the Bible.
Yes, the frame of this story appears to endorse part of the injustice of the historical period, and that's where you have a moral (rather than a taste) objection. You can't write the story so that the Jew is actually taken to be wrong to persist in being a Jew!!! (And this particular subgenre is explicitly didactic, one reason why it's so often so horribly written. There's not a lot of room for you to persuade yourself that the author wasn't working from a specific moral position she wanted you to accept.)
Holocaust kitsch like Striped Pyjamas is in poor taste because it sees the Holocaust as a device to mobilize strong feeling and reinforce the reader's sense of morality by allowing them to emotionally invest in what is, to us, an "easy" position (i.e., concentration camps are evil). It's like the infamous Sarah MacLachlan ads.
posted by praemunire at 9:37 AM on November 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yes, the frame of this story appears to endorse part of the injustice of the historical period, and that's where you have a moral (rather than a taste) objection. You can't write the story so that the Jew is actually taken to be wrong to persist in being a Jew!!! (And this particular subgenre is explicitly didactic, one reason why it's so often so horribly written. There's not a lot of room for you to persuade yourself that the author wasn't working from a specific moral position she wanted you to accept.)
Holocaust kitsch like Striped Pyjamas is in poor taste because it sees the Holocaust as a device to mobilize strong feeling and reinforce the reader's sense of morality by allowing them to emotionally invest in what is, to us, an "easy" position (i.e., concentration camps are evil). It's like the infamous Sarah MacLachlan ads.
posted by praemunire at 9:37 AM on November 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
When my aunt got married, I was never clear on which was the bigger scandal to my German protestant grandparents: that he was Catholic or that he was Italian.
To mainline Protestants, the Catholic church is institutionally corrupt and illegitimate but still Christian, just as to Catholics, mainline Protestants are schismatics but still Christian.
Evangelicals literally don't think of Catholics as Christian at all. It's like they're Mormons. I've had the joy of observing this in my extended family.
posted by praemunire at 9:39 AM on November 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
To mainline Protestants, the Catholic church is institutionally corrupt and illegitimate but still Christian, just as to Catholics, mainline Protestants are schismatics but still Christian.
Evangelicals literally don't think of Catholics as Christian at all. It's like they're Mormons. I've had the joy of observing this in my extended family.
posted by praemunire at 9:39 AM on November 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
As someone raised in the Catholic Church (shudder), it's fully reciprocal.
Interestingly, that was not the case for us (at least by my time as a kid in the 70s/80s - it was definitely a thing for my grandmother & great grandmother - Protestantism of those in power literally framed how and where they could live). My grandmother was petrified that someone in Toronto would tell her to "speak white" which by my time was not something I'd consider.
approved denomination consists entirely of the (mega)church they go to.
I'm married into a family that is like that so I used it knowingly. For them approved denomination (their terminology not mine) literally means their church and no other as they see their Church as a denomination. They will accept adjacent Evangelical Churches with similar values but with suspicion.
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:47 AM on November 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Interestingly, that was not the case for us (at least by my time as a kid in the 70s/80s - it was definitely a thing for my grandmother & great grandmother - Protestantism of those in power literally framed how and where they could live). My grandmother was petrified that someone in Toronto would tell her to "speak white" which by my time was not something I'd consider.
approved denomination consists entirely of the (mega)church they go to.
I'm married into a family that is like that so I used it knowingly. For them approved denomination (their terminology not mine) literally means their church and no other as they see their Church as a denomination. They will accept adjacent Evangelical Churches with similar values but with suspicion.
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:47 AM on November 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
My somewhat snarky guess is that this genre particularly appeals to people who have done terrible things in their own lives, or whose partners have, and who want to really believe that anyone can be redeemed.
No, it's (mostly) for people for whom terrible things done to the Other aren't quite real.
I've read a few 'inspirational romance' novels, and no, not all of them involve terrible things done to An Other. There's a full slate of sins on offer including extramarital affairs, addiction, abortion, etc.
posted by bq at 10:29 AM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
No, it's (mostly) for people for whom terrible things done to the Other aren't quite real.
I've read a few 'inspirational romance' novels, and no, not all of them involve terrible things done to An Other. There's a full slate of sins on offer including extramarital affairs, addiction, abortion, etc.
posted by bq at 10:29 AM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mike Pence recruited a Jews-For-Jesus Jewish man to give a sermon for the victims of the Pittsburgh synagogue massacre. A philosophy that believes the victims were going to hell and the killer could be saved by repenting through his Christian faith.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:42 AM on November 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:42 AM on November 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
AAAAAGH FUCK THAT GUY
posted by bq at 10:44 AM on November 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by bq at 10:44 AM on November 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
no, not all of them involve terrible things done to An Other.
Here we're talking the subgenre of "Heroes as Monsters," though (and talking generally--I don't think they are only and exclusively wronging Others). I think you're defining it a little more broadly. Even then, there's often a hypothetical element to it. I don't think most women reading (with sincerity) an inspirational romance about a woman who has an abortion think of themselves as people who might have, or have had, abortions (*). There are explicitly Christian books like that, to be sure, but they're not inspirational romances. There's no aspirational element to that! (I don't think inspirational romances and what you might call the "repentance memoir" function in the same way for the same readers.)
As an atheist, I think about the story of Paul's conversion and his community's reaction to it in Acts 22 (?). As an adult re-hearing that story, what I think of is what it would be like to have been, in my arrogance and pride, a famous and forceful advocate for a position that I later realized had been dreadfully harmful and objectively (from his POV) wrong, a terrible offense against God and his fellow-believers. How do you fit a story that takes that harm as real into the framework of a standard romance? "Go; I will send you far away to the Gentiles." What else is there? No one wants to be that particular person or to think they could be! (I don't know if there are any inspirational romances about Paul...he may be too associated with Catholicism.)
(*) And that's setting aside the way that the fetus functions as a conveniently hypothetical creature in much Evangelical rhetoric, a being with no needs or wishes independent of those attributed to it, a being who ceases to exist, in some sense, at birth when it would start to get inconvenient to feel some actual societal responsibility towards it.
posted by praemunire at 10:54 AM on November 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Here we're talking the subgenre of "Heroes as Monsters," though (and talking generally--I don't think they are only and exclusively wronging Others). I think you're defining it a little more broadly. Even then, there's often a hypothetical element to it. I don't think most women reading (with sincerity) an inspirational romance about a woman who has an abortion think of themselves as people who might have, or have had, abortions (*). There are explicitly Christian books like that, to be sure, but they're not inspirational romances. There's no aspirational element to that! (I don't think inspirational romances and what you might call the "repentance memoir" function in the same way for the same readers.)
As an atheist, I think about the story of Paul's conversion and his community's reaction to it in Acts 22 (?). As an adult re-hearing that story, what I think of is what it would be like to have been, in my arrogance and pride, a famous and forceful advocate for a position that I later realized had been dreadfully harmful and objectively (from his POV) wrong, a terrible offense against God and his fellow-believers. How do you fit a story that takes that harm as real into the framework of a standard romance? "Go; I will send you far away to the Gentiles." What else is there? No one wants to be that particular person or to think they could be! (I don't know if there are any inspirational romances about Paul...he may be too associated with Catholicism.)
(*) And that's setting aside the way that the fetus functions as a conveniently hypothetical creature in much Evangelical rhetoric, a being with no needs or wishes independent of those attributed to it, a being who ceases to exist, in some sense, at birth when it would start to get inconvenient to feel some actual societal responsibility towards it.
posted by praemunire at 10:54 AM on November 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
As someone raised in the Catholic Church (shudder), it's fully reciprocal.
Interestingly, that was not the case for us (at least by my time as a kid in the 70s/80s -
ditto for me (60s/70s childhood). In fact, past about age eleven, our local priest was a leader in the ecumenical movement, and much admired. Years later, he'd make the news when it was revealed that he'd been leading double life for decades; he was married and had a few kids on the side.
I guess he was what you'd call one of those liberal Catholics.
posted by philip-random at 12:27 PM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Interestingly, that was not the case for us (at least by my time as a kid in the 70s/80s -
ditto for me (60s/70s childhood). In fact, past about age eleven, our local priest was a leader in the ecumenical movement, and much admired. Years later, he'd make the news when it was revealed that he'd been leading double life for decades; he was married and had a few kids on the side.
I guess he was what you'd call one of those liberal Catholics.
posted by philip-random at 12:27 PM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Romance as a genre does make hay frequently out of people on the opposite sides of social conflicts, though most of it goes along philip-random's definition of recent history and history; a lot of the proposed ones above probably would fit into the genre once that time has passed. There's a *lot* of "Two people on the opposite side of a war" novels out there both real and fantastical - Condeferate/Union, English/Scottish, vampire/werewolf, aristocrat/rebel.
This genre convention is everywhere in 19th century British fiction--Walter Scott goes for it over and over again, for example, but it's a staple for representing reconciliation between England/Ireland or Scotland/Ireland in national tales, or between Catholics/Protestants and, far more rarely, Christians/Jews in historical and/or religious fiction. Even then, though, you also had novelists, especially Catholic and Jewish novelists, rejecting this approach precisely because it often rested on their total subordination and erasure. It's not an accident that in this particular variant of the marriage plot, the husband is almost always the English/Protestant/Christian one.
posted by thomas j wise at 4:50 PM on November 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
This genre convention is everywhere in 19th century British fiction--Walter Scott goes for it over and over again, for example, but it's a staple for representing reconciliation between England/Ireland or Scotland/Ireland in national tales, or between Catholics/Protestants and, far more rarely, Christians/Jews in historical and/or religious fiction. Even then, though, you also had novelists, especially Catholic and Jewish novelists, rejecting this approach precisely because it often rested on their total subordination and erasure. It's not an accident that in this particular variant of the marriage plot, the husband is almost always the English/Protestant/Christian one.
posted by thomas j wise at 4:50 PM on November 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
An easy place to start would be to eliminate an award category that rewards people for shitty takes on humanity.
posted by brookeb at 10:51 PM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by brookeb at 10:51 PM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
My phone's or YouTube's algorithms have thrown at me two excerpts of The Progressive Forum Interview with the very funny Anthony Borowitz on 'Stages of Ignorance' in American Political History and Sarah Palin, the gateway idiot to Donald Trump'. In the latter he makes the assertion that Ivana Trump said the one book that the Donald kept in his his bedside table was My New Order, a collection of speeches by Adolf Hitler. This may be old news here but I have no recollection of ever reading or hearing this before. But it is so true.
"...'Last April, perhaps in a surge of Czech nationalism, Ivana Trump told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that from time to time her husband reads a book of Hitler's collected speeches, My New Order, which he keeps in a cabinet by his bed ... Hitler's speeches, from his earliest days up through the Phony War of 1939, reveal his extraordinary ability as a master propagandist,' Marie Brenner wrote."posted by y2karl at 11:35 AM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
See also Alexandra Petri: I'm.Starting to Think Donald Trump Is Sounding Like Hitler on Purpose.
posted by y2karl at 3:34 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by y2karl at 3:34 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
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posted by humbug at 6:25 PM on November 7, 2023 [6 favorites]