Is Finland the best place in the world to be a parent?
November 11, 2023 10:49 PM Subscribe
What the world can learn from childcare in Finland [yt] - "Finland is a world leader when it comes to early years education. Childcare is affordable and nursery places are universally available in a system that puts children's rights at the centre of decision-making. Now the country is applying the same child-first thinking to paternity-leave policies in an attempt to tackle gender inequality in parenting."[1,2,3]
also btw...
also btw...
- Childcare is broken: is the UK failing its future? [yt] - "Soaring nursery fees are causing parents – usually mothers – to quit their jobs, yet childcare settings are so chronically underfunded they are barely able to stay afloat, prompting underpaid staff to leave in droves."
- These 10 Graphics Show Just How Broken America's Child-Care System Is [ungated] - "Too few spots at centers, underpaid workers, and no real government assistance in sight with the end of pandemic aid."[4]
- The Challenge of Making Childcare Abundant and Cheap [transcript, yt] - "Finding good, high quality childcare has been a growing challenge in the US for a long time. The pandemic only made the situation worse, with all kinds of negative knock-on effects for the economy. So what is actually involved in building out a childcare business? What are the costs? How much can it scale? Can it be made more efficient by changing regulations or subsidies?" (A Childcare Entrepreneur Explains Why Preschool Is So Expensive)
For 75 years, Finland's expectant mothers have been given a box by the state. It's like a starter kit of clothes, sheets and toys that can even be used as a bed. And some say it helped Finland achieve one of the world's lowest infant mortality rates.
I didn't see this mentioned in these articles but it's another fantastic idea, and there are probably more that aren't covered. It wouldn't surprise me if you asked if they paid for the baby's nutrition they would look at you like a monster for asking such a thing.
posted by adept256 at 12:03 AM on November 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
Mattress, mattress cover, undersheet, duvet cover, blanket, sleeping bag/quiltWhy not? Every parent needs this stuff on day one. We can invest like, 100 dollars in every baby. I think that's worth it, don't you?
Box itself doubles as a crib
Snowsuit, hat, insluated mittens and booties
Light hooded suit and knitted overalls
Socks and mittens, knitted hat and balaclava
Bodysuits, romper suits and leggings in unisex colours and patterns
Hooded bath towel, nail scissors, hairbrush, toothbrush, bath thermometer, nappy cream, washcloth
Cloth nappy set and muslin squares
Picture book and teething toy
Bra pads, condoms
I didn't see this mentioned in these articles but it's another fantastic idea, and there are probably more that aren't covered. It wouldn't surprise me if you asked if they paid for the baby's nutrition they would look at you like a monster for asking such a thing.
posted by adept256 at 12:03 AM on November 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
Not quite a derail but the train paused in the woods allowing a ramble in the area. One English chap has been doing self-sufficient homesteading at "Mossy Bottom" in W Ireland for the last seven years. In consequence of parenthood they've just up-stakes to a cabin in the woods in SW Finland [27m]. €65K = habitable cabin & 2 hectares / 5acres. Kidder too young for childcare yet a while. Here in Ireland childcare is similar to UK costs: 30 years ago my professorial pal told me that her entire salary went to childcare for her two infants.
Behind another copse, here is [30m podcast] Jim Al-Khalili talking to anthropologist Sarah Blaffer Hrdy about human parenting strategies, from her perspective as a scientist and a mother. SBH wrote the 700pp book about this in Mother Nature (1999). One point made in the podcast is that human infants are different from other primates in being adapted for being raised by a village, allo-mothers have a significant role to play (sic) in care of and attention for small childer. Currently structured nuclear-family domiciles, often far from grandmothers and auncles, and isolated from immediate neighbours, is inimical to what is 'natural'. If you were designing the best system for raising citizens to adulthood you wouldn't start from here . . . where one salary goes to Mo-Fr 9-5 childcare and the other goes to the mortgage.
posted by BobTheScientist at 12:52 AM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
Behind another copse, here is [30m podcast] Jim Al-Khalili talking to anthropologist Sarah Blaffer Hrdy about human parenting strategies, from her perspective as a scientist and a mother. SBH wrote the 700pp book about this in Mother Nature (1999). One point made in the podcast is that human infants are different from other primates in being adapted for being raised by a village, allo-mothers have a significant role to play (sic) in care of and attention for small childer. Currently structured nuclear-family domiciles, often far from grandmothers and auncles, and isolated from immediate neighbours, is inimical to what is 'natural'. If you were designing the best system for raising citizens to adulthood you wouldn't start from here . . . where one salary goes to Mo-Fr 9-5 childcare and the other goes to the mortgage.
posted by BobTheScientist at 12:52 AM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
My wife is Finnish and we currently live in Helsinki. First of all, the childcare system is not perfect, for instance there are only about half the number of fully licensed early education teachers working for the city of Helsinki that there should be (about 80% of the shortfall is made up with teachers without early education specialization). My four-year-old’s current kindergarten is fully staffed, but I just heard from a parent who has kids at her old kindergarten that they just managed to fully staff it this week. That said, the kindergartens here are at a very high level, and though there have been short periods through the years where understaffing has showed (mostly in terms of there not being as many activities or field trips as normally), we’ve been happy here.
Second of all, though, is that it is as great to be a parent in Finland as the reporting makes it seem. The tiny example I always reach for is that if you have a child in a stroller or a pram, municipal public transportation is free of charge for the parent and child. There’s an interesting history behind it, which is that the Helsinki mass transit authority noticed that their buses were delayed because parents who went in with strollers and prams towards the middle of the bus had to wait for other passengers to get to their seats before they could come to the front and pay. They decided that the simplest, kindest way to solve that problem was to not charge the parents for a ticket. And having lived in countries where that wasn’t the policy, I can say that this absolutely encourages people with kids in strollers and prams to take public transportation.
There are lots of other things like that which make life easier as a parent. To stay on mass transit, if you take a long-distance train (which to be clear, isn’t free for parents, though kids under four ride for free) about half of them have kids’ cars, that is about a third of the upper level of one of the cars is given over to a small playground with a slide, some toys, and a reading corner with a bookshelf. Kids are always excited about going on the train, and parents get a bit of time for reading and drinking coffee.
Speaking of playgrounds, every neighborhood has multiple playgrounds, with at least one big one, where during summer, when schools are closed, kids can come for lunch (all kids welcome), which is usually vegetarian soups or stews. There are also many music schools, and different types of clubs for sports and other activities are plentiful. Most of them are fairly cheap, individually, though it does add up fairly quickly when your kids have more than one hobby.
Finnish society decided, a long time ago, that since living in the far north of the world isn’t easy at the best of times, it made little sense to make life worse for people, so in general Finnish authorities try to make life easier for people. Another famous example is the “name on the door” policy for unhoused people. It’s not a panacea, but the first principle is to end the most immediate cause of suffering, and proceed from there.
All that said, things aren’t perfect here and the authorities have certain blind spots, most noticeably for me around immigration. A small example is that it can be absurdly difficult to get a local bank account, which you need for all kinds of public services. A more serious example is that native-born Finns are unaware of the concrete ways racism and xenophobia function, even if they’re conscious of it conceptually. For instance, just last week there was a big scandal when extremely racist comments from a Facebook group of medical doctors leaked, which came as absolutely no surprise to immigrants, but shocked native-born Finns (even I’ve run into weird attitudes from medical professionals and I’m from Iceland). This can, obviously, redound on children of foreign backgrounds, or for kids of ethnic minorities.
But yes, though Finland has its problems, the general attitude here remains that making people’s lives easier is preferable to making people’s lives harder, which Finns are, blessedly, shocked to learn isn’t the case the world over. Being a parent is stressful, so they try to make it less so. I’ve benefited, in big ways and small, from that attitude. As an immigrant here I don’t have family, so my social network is fairly small, and my wife’s family mostly lives elsewhere in the country, so we don’t have a fallback here, and therefore have to rely on public services, and they’re fairly fabulous.
So yes, I’ll fully buy the idea that this is one of the top countries in the world to be a parent, possibly even the toppermost.
posted by Kattullus at 1:18 AM on November 12, 2023 [59 favorites]
Second of all, though, is that it is as great to be a parent in Finland as the reporting makes it seem. The tiny example I always reach for is that if you have a child in a stroller or a pram, municipal public transportation is free of charge for the parent and child. There’s an interesting history behind it, which is that the Helsinki mass transit authority noticed that their buses were delayed because parents who went in with strollers and prams towards the middle of the bus had to wait for other passengers to get to their seats before they could come to the front and pay. They decided that the simplest, kindest way to solve that problem was to not charge the parents for a ticket. And having lived in countries where that wasn’t the policy, I can say that this absolutely encourages people with kids in strollers and prams to take public transportation.
There are lots of other things like that which make life easier as a parent. To stay on mass transit, if you take a long-distance train (which to be clear, isn’t free for parents, though kids under four ride for free) about half of them have kids’ cars, that is about a third of the upper level of one of the cars is given over to a small playground with a slide, some toys, and a reading corner with a bookshelf. Kids are always excited about going on the train, and parents get a bit of time for reading and drinking coffee.
Speaking of playgrounds, every neighborhood has multiple playgrounds, with at least one big one, where during summer, when schools are closed, kids can come for lunch (all kids welcome), which is usually vegetarian soups or stews. There are also many music schools, and different types of clubs for sports and other activities are plentiful. Most of them are fairly cheap, individually, though it does add up fairly quickly when your kids have more than one hobby.
Finnish society decided, a long time ago, that since living in the far north of the world isn’t easy at the best of times, it made little sense to make life worse for people, so in general Finnish authorities try to make life easier for people. Another famous example is the “name on the door” policy for unhoused people. It’s not a panacea, but the first principle is to end the most immediate cause of suffering, and proceed from there.
All that said, things aren’t perfect here and the authorities have certain blind spots, most noticeably for me around immigration. A small example is that it can be absurdly difficult to get a local bank account, which you need for all kinds of public services. A more serious example is that native-born Finns are unaware of the concrete ways racism and xenophobia function, even if they’re conscious of it conceptually. For instance, just last week there was a big scandal when extremely racist comments from a Facebook group of medical doctors leaked, which came as absolutely no surprise to immigrants, but shocked native-born Finns (even I’ve run into weird attitudes from medical professionals and I’m from Iceland). This can, obviously, redound on children of foreign backgrounds, or for kids of ethnic minorities.
But yes, though Finland has its problems, the general attitude here remains that making people’s lives easier is preferable to making people’s lives harder, which Finns are, blessedly, shocked to learn isn’t the case the world over. Being a parent is stressful, so they try to make it less so. I’ve benefited, in big ways and small, from that attitude. As an immigrant here I don’t have family, so my social network is fairly small, and my wife’s family mostly lives elsewhere in the country, so we don’t have a fallback here, and therefore have to rely on public services, and they’re fairly fabulous.
So yes, I’ll fully buy the idea that this is one of the top countries in the world to be a parent, possibly even the toppermost.
posted by Kattullus at 1:18 AM on November 12, 2023 [59 favorites]
> This sucks. The lesson should be that you have to bring Finland home with you. Bring New Zealand home with you. Wherever you think you're going to flee to, you should try to build that at home.
this advice only really works for people who live in democracies, and the united states (for example) is not a democracy.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 5:58 AM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
this advice only really works for people who live in democracies, and the united states (for example) is not a democracy.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 5:58 AM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
i live in the usa, have a 15th month old, a full time swe job and a disabled wife. at this point id settle for an adderall rx.
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 6:04 AM on November 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 6:04 AM on November 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
So I work in ECE in Ohio. I had a conversation with my boss/owner the other day. She told me that Ohio centers had been getting significantly less money from the state than they should have been getting for years. Like the one owner in the Bloomberg article, my boss wants more kids. We are about a third of what we had pre 2020. But people can't afford to work a full time job where they don't make a living wage. Plus we are overworked and underappreciated.
I think I told the story here on the blue where an elementary school teacher told me I wasn't a real teacher. Bull shit. I work just as much after work and on the weekends as a "real teacher". I pay just as much out of pocket for my classroom as a "real teacher". And I don't make nearly as much as a "real teacher" (who are also underpaid and underappreciated).
We form bonds just as strong or stronger as "real teachers". I have a 3 year old in my preschool room that I took care of from 2-18 months in the infant room. I've literally known her almost all her life. I've watched kids go from infants to school agers. It's not an easy job, but it can be extremely rewarding. My little 3 year old went from a helpless blob to a walking, talking bunch of personality.
posted by kathrynm at 7:15 AM on November 12, 2023 [18 favorites]
I think I told the story here on the blue where an elementary school teacher told me I wasn't a real teacher. Bull shit. I work just as much after work and on the weekends as a "real teacher". I pay just as much out of pocket for my classroom as a "real teacher". And I don't make nearly as much as a "real teacher" (who are also underpaid and underappreciated).
We form bonds just as strong or stronger as "real teachers". I have a 3 year old in my preschool room that I took care of from 2-18 months in the infant room. I've literally known her almost all her life. I've watched kids go from infants to school agers. It's not an easy job, but it can be extremely rewarding. My little 3 year old went from a helpless blob to a walking, talking bunch of personality.
posted by kathrynm at 7:15 AM on November 12, 2023 [18 favorites]
Not Finland, but when I tell my American family and friends back home about paternity/maternity leave here in Canada, they are agog with envy. Like, one of my former coworkers went on mat leave back in May, and she won't be back for nearly a year and she will still be paid a substantial part of her salary during that time. Same for dads, but I think dads get six months? (YMMV.)
posted by Kitteh at 7:46 AM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 7:46 AM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Every architect, every lawyer and engineer, every doctor and scientist, had teachers. No-one comes flying out of the womb with a professional education. Yet being a teacher isn't regarded with the same esteem as a doctor or an engineer. It's the profession which allows all those others though.
I think we need to treasure our teachers, and we can start by actually giving them treasure. Make it a desirable job.
In my country (au) you are not allowed to be a real teacher unless you have a university degree. That's a standard we hold, but that doesn't prevent anyone from being a valuable informal teacher.
posted by adept256 at 7:48 AM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think we need to treasure our teachers, and we can start by actually giving them treasure. Make it a desirable job.
In my country (au) you are not allowed to be a real teacher unless you have a university degree. That's a standard we hold, but that doesn't prevent anyone from being a valuable informal teacher.
posted by adept256 at 7:48 AM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
Does anyone know why Finland still has a similar gender pay gap to the US and a low birth rate?
posted by Selena777 at 9:27 AM on November 12, 2023
posted by Selena777 at 9:27 AM on November 12, 2023
Finland is the best place in the world, apparently.
ftfy
posted by evilDoug at 9:36 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Same for dads, but I think dads get six months?
Both parents (aside from some extra leave for the birthing parent in case of needing pre-birth leave) get the same amount so far as I know. However due to factors like the gender pay gap and the time demands of breastfeeding, it’s way more common for mothers to take more. But in theory you can split it 50/50. It’s not perfect - in high cost of living areas the EI (employment insurance) doesn’t come close to covering the costs, but you’re at least guaranteed the time to spend with your kid, some money, and a job to come back to. Like Finland, it’s still not easy to have kids here - in cities there’s a daycare/early education availability crisis of a similar scale to the housing crisis, but it’s obviously way better than many many places, so I’m still counting my blessings on that front.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:42 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Both parents (aside from some extra leave for the birthing parent in case of needing pre-birth leave) get the same amount so far as I know. However due to factors like the gender pay gap and the time demands of breastfeeding, it’s way more common for mothers to take more. But in theory you can split it 50/50. It’s not perfect - in high cost of living areas the EI (employment insurance) doesn’t come close to covering the costs, but you’re at least guaranteed the time to spend with your kid, some money, and a job to come back to. Like Finland, it’s still not easy to have kids here - in cities there’s a daycare/early education availability crisis of a similar scale to the housing crisis, but it’s obviously way better than many many places, so I’m still counting my blessings on that front.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:42 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
This sucks. The lesson should be that you have to bring Finland home with you. Bring New Zealand home with you. Wherever you think you're going to flee to, you should try to build that at home.
I don't disagree with you, but what exactly do you expect people to do? Finland (and Scandinavia, for that matter) has a culture of egalitarianism, substanability, and community over self that has been baked in over thousands of years. The US has a culture of unlimited "opportunity" and self-obsession bordering on paranoia that's likewise been baked in over the entire lifetime of our country to date.
I've had the fortune to spend time living in Sweden so I get it and completely echo what Kattullus said - it's not the perfect utopia US leftists like to say it is (try getting a lease or even a bank account as a foreigner), but the trade-offs are so, so worth it. Hell I don't even have kids (partly for the reasons discussed in this post) and I would happily pay the taxes here just to be in a less hateful, more supportive society even without the childcare benefits. Sadly, my opinion is virtually nonexistent in the US - I might as well be from the Moon.
Might sound defeatist but quite frankly, I've reached a point where I'm just tired and realizing even minor change is virtually impossible in my lifetime and I'm sure others have had the same realization. I would not fault anybody for choosing to leave if they could find a way to do so.
posted by photo guy at 11:18 AM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don't disagree with you, but what exactly do you expect people to do? Finland (and Scandinavia, for that matter) has a culture of egalitarianism, substanability, and community over self that has been baked in over thousands of years. The US has a culture of unlimited "opportunity" and self-obsession bordering on paranoia that's likewise been baked in over the entire lifetime of our country to date.
I've had the fortune to spend time living in Sweden so I get it and completely echo what Kattullus said - it's not the perfect utopia US leftists like to say it is (try getting a lease or even a bank account as a foreigner), but the trade-offs are so, so worth it. Hell I don't even have kids (partly for the reasons discussed in this post) and I would happily pay the taxes here just to be in a less hateful, more supportive society even without the childcare benefits. Sadly, my opinion is virtually nonexistent in the US - I might as well be from the Moon.
Might sound defeatist but quite frankly, I've reached a point where I'm just tired and realizing even minor change is virtually impossible in my lifetime and I'm sure others have had the same realization. I would not fault anybody for choosing to leave if they could find a way to do so.
posted by photo guy at 11:18 AM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
Finland also has a small population and low density and a low birth rate. that does not negate the really fantastic things the Finnish culture does to support families, its really great! but perhaps also easier to facilitate in a small, affluent nation?
posted by supermedusa at 11:48 AM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 11:48 AM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Does anyone know why Finland still has a similar gender pay gap to the US and a low birth rate?
I haven't seen numbers but don't think parental leave policies move the needle much on birth rate. I think of them more as making life nice for citizens.
As to the former, "a growing body of research that suggests what we often think of as a gender pay gap is more accurately discussed as a childbearing pay gap or motherhood penalty." One wouldn't expect parental leave to affect that unless a supermajority of fathers started taking way more of it proportionally — perhaps near-equal time off. I support the great policies to nudge that number up but have not heard of any good ideas to achieve such a dramatic increase.
posted by daveliepmann at 12:10 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I haven't seen numbers but don't think parental leave policies move the needle much on birth rate. I think of them more as making life nice for citizens.
As to the former, "a growing body of research that suggests what we often think of as a gender pay gap is more accurately discussed as a childbearing pay gap or motherhood penalty." One wouldn't expect parental leave to affect that unless a supermajority of fathers started taking way more of it proportionally — perhaps near-equal time off. I support the great policies to nudge that number up but have not heard of any good ideas to achieve such a dramatic increase.
posted by daveliepmann at 12:10 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Finland (and Scandinavia, for that matter) has a culture of egalitarianism, substanability, and community over self that has been baked in over thousands of years.
and
Finland also has a small population and low density and a low birth rate. that does not negate the really fantastic things the Finnish culture does to support families, its really great! but perhaps also easier to facilitate in a small, affluent nation?
These arguments always irk me. First of all, don't imagine the Nordics were like this 100 years ago. Why do you all think there were so many immigrants from the Nordic region to the US? People were starving, and the class system was suffocating. Workers didn't even have the right to vote until after WW1 (different for each country). Heck, Finland only gained independence in 1917. The small country thing is BS as well. In the US, a lot of welfare benefits would be on the state level anyway, and several states have smaller or similar populations to the Nordic countries.
Things changed because people fought to change them, that fight took generations, and it included changing the parliamentary and legal systems in each country. Quality of life doesn't come for free.
There's a thing that is hinted at in the first video which I think is quite important: in Finland and Denmark, the welfare system is built on a coalition, across the left/right divide. Not so much in the other Nordic nations. I think it may be because those two countries felt more united in the face of a huge neighboring threat, respectively Stalin's Sovjet Union and Hitler's Germany. From the outside, one probably wouldn't notice, but that foundation means there are actually some big differences between for instance Sweden and Finland. But there are many other aspects to that divide.
posted by mumimor at 12:20 PM on November 12, 2023 [24 favorites]
and
Finland also has a small population and low density and a low birth rate. that does not negate the really fantastic things the Finnish culture does to support families, its really great! but perhaps also easier to facilitate in a small, affluent nation?
These arguments always irk me. First of all, don't imagine the Nordics were like this 100 years ago. Why do you all think there were so many immigrants from the Nordic region to the US? People were starving, and the class system was suffocating. Workers didn't even have the right to vote until after WW1 (different for each country). Heck, Finland only gained independence in 1917. The small country thing is BS as well. In the US, a lot of welfare benefits would be on the state level anyway, and several states have smaller or similar populations to the Nordic countries.
Things changed because people fought to change them, that fight took generations, and it included changing the parliamentary and legal systems in each country. Quality of life doesn't come for free.
There's a thing that is hinted at in the first video which I think is quite important: in Finland and Denmark, the welfare system is built on a coalition, across the left/right divide. Not so much in the other Nordic nations. I think it may be because those two countries felt more united in the face of a huge neighboring threat, respectively Stalin's Sovjet Union and Hitler's Germany. From the outside, one probably wouldn't notice, but that foundation means there are actually some big differences between for instance Sweden and Finland. But there are many other aspects to that divide.
posted by mumimor at 12:20 PM on November 12, 2023 [24 favorites]
Workers didn't even have the right to vote until after WW1
It's more complicated than that, and I'd point out that the US wasn't exactly a shining beacon on that front either - women didn't have the right to vote at that time, and many convinced felons still today don't have the right to vote.
Things changed because people fought to change them, that fight took generations, and it included changing the parliamentary and legal systems in each country. Quality of life doesn't come for free.
1800s Europe was a very, very different landscape to present-day America for a whole host of reasons I'm not going into now. This is going to be an unpopular opinion here, but I do not think the kind of political sea change you're envisioning could happen in today's world. I would be happy to be proven wrong.
I don't know, I'm not a politician and I'm not a political revolutionary, I'm just a random person who's exhausted and sick of well, really everything that defines American society. I don't think it's too much to just want to have a peaceful life. Sorry if that offends you.
posted by photo guy at 1:42 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's more complicated than that, and I'd point out that the US wasn't exactly a shining beacon on that front either - women didn't have the right to vote at that time, and many convinced felons still today don't have the right to vote.
Things changed because people fought to change them, that fight took generations, and it included changing the parliamentary and legal systems in each country. Quality of life doesn't come for free.
1800s Europe was a very, very different landscape to present-day America for a whole host of reasons I'm not going into now. This is going to be an unpopular opinion here, but I do not think the kind of political sea change you're envisioning could happen in today's world. I would be happy to be proven wrong.
I don't know, I'm not a politician and I'm not a political revolutionary, I'm just a random person who's exhausted and sick of well, really everything that defines American society. I don't think it's too much to just want to have a peaceful life. Sorry if that offends you.
posted by photo guy at 1:42 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
We are moving to $10/day daycare across Canada. There's a plan and funding and provincial-Federal agreements and everything. I know families whose costs have already dropped by more than half.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:46 PM on November 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 1:46 PM on November 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Mostly, I cringe at the often stated POV that a culture of egalitarianism, substanability, and community over self that has been baked in over thousands of years.
Which is a myth that doesn't become more true through repetition.
I have no idea what we can achieve today, but I do know we are challenged with tasks that demand of us that we work towards a common goal, or face catastrophe. All over the world, we have an elite that somehow imagines they can sit it out in their mansions and with their private armies. But the water doesn't give a shit about your net value, and neither do the vira or the atmosphere. We live in interesting times.
posted by mumimor at 3:03 PM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
Which is a myth that doesn't become more true through repetition.
I have no idea what we can achieve today, but I do know we are challenged with tasks that demand of us that we work towards a common goal, or face catastrophe. All over the world, we have an elite that somehow imagines they can sit it out in their mansions and with their private armies. But the water doesn't give a shit about your net value, and neither do the vira or the atmosphere. We live in interesting times.
posted by mumimor at 3:03 PM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
Just to echo what mumimor said, I wrote my first and only FPP (so far) about this a while back... the story of how the Nordics became modern social welfare states is fascinating and might indeed contain useful lessons for the rest of us. (One hint: Strikes!)
posted by sockshaveholes at 4:23 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by sockshaveholes at 4:23 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Finland is the best place in the world to be a parent, has been for some time, right?
And I believe, and I think a bunch of us believe, that investing in making parenting better will lead to better outcomes for kids, right? Like, not just childhoods, their whole lives.
OK, so... why aren't Finns in high demand for everything, everywhere? Why aren't they like Level 10 D&D characters waltzing through a Level 5 campaign, in all areas of life, all over the world?
Or are they, and I just haven't noticed?
Or do they never leave Finland because it's so fantastic?
posted by gurple at 4:39 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
And I believe, and I think a bunch of us believe, that investing in making parenting better will lead to better outcomes for kids, right? Like, not just childhoods, their whole lives.
OK, so... why aren't Finns in high demand for everything, everywhere? Why aren't they like Level 10 D&D characters waltzing through a Level 5 campaign, in all areas of life, all over the world?
Or are they, and I just haven't noticed?
Or do they never leave Finland because it's so fantastic?
posted by gurple at 4:39 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Regarding the Finnish birth rate (someone already addressed the gender pay gap) I found this article under the the google question "Why is the Finland birth rate falling?"
Basically nonone knows, but it might be some combination of economics and social media (as well as access to birth control if your interested in a super long term comparison)
posted by eagles123 at 5:12 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Basically nonone knows, but it might be some combination of economics and social media (as well as access to birth control if your interested in a super long term comparison)
posted by eagles123 at 5:12 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Birthrates are low everywhere women can decide for themselves. And that is a good thing. There are some challenges that we need to deal with, because our whole economic system is about eternal growth, based on demographic growth. But it is a good thing that population growth is slowing down.
posted by mumimor at 5:18 PM on November 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 5:18 PM on November 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
And I believe, and I think a bunch of us believe, that investing in making parenting better will lead to better outcomes for kids, right? Like, not just childhoods, their whole lives.
OK, so... why aren't Finns in high demand for everything, everywhere? Why aren't they like Level 10 D&D characters waltzing through a Level 5 campaign, in all areas of life, all over the world?
Better doesn’t mean levelled up. It can just mean happier. Like…if parents are less stressed and so are kids, that doesn’t have to translate to becoming Captains of Industry for it to be…good. It’s like maternity leave in Canada. It doesn’t have to translate to fixing everything. It can just be…better.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:40 PM on November 12, 2023 [22 favorites]
OK, so... why aren't Finns in high demand for everything, everywhere? Why aren't they like Level 10 D&D characters waltzing through a Level 5 campaign, in all areas of life, all over the world?
Better doesn’t mean levelled up. It can just mean happier. Like…if parents are less stressed and so are kids, that doesn’t have to translate to becoming Captains of Industry for it to be…good. It’s like maternity leave in Canada. It doesn’t have to translate to fixing everything. It can just be…better.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:40 PM on November 12, 2023 [22 favorites]
Also birth rates in Quebec went down too. My own theory is that when you have good childcare, women can stay working. When you don’t, some women drop out of the workforce and then they may have more kids.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:42 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by warriorqueen at 6:42 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Below replacement birth rates can pose problems, though. Right now immigrants make the difference in the US and Europe, but that's not really sustainable over the long term, especially because older generations seem to vote for nativist politicians who favor discrimminatorty laws against the immigrants (speaking as an American observing the rise of Trumpism).
posted by eagles123 at 7:05 PM on November 12, 2023
posted by eagles123 at 7:05 PM on November 12, 2023
Would Americans subsidize increased national happiness without a productivity angle?
posted by Selena777 at 7:05 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 7:05 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Some might, but there’s a sizeable portion of Americans who would never subsidize anything that could possibly benefit a brown person or poor person, regardless of what benefit such a subsidy could be shown to bring to the larger society including themselves.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 9:32 PM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by armoir from antproof case at 9:32 PM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
Mostly, I cringe at the often stated POV that a culture of egalitarianism, substanability, and community over self that has been baked in over thousands of years.
Which is a myth that doesn't become more true through repetition.
Maybe this is stated often for a reason. Are you a Scandinavian citizen who has spent most of their life there? Or are you an expert in Scandinavian history? I live there and feel I have a viewpoint to bring. Only Americans would believe that cultural norms are a "myth". The whole belief I see so often on this site that willful thinking and getting riled up enough will magically change any situation, no matter how fucked it is, is in itself a cultural norm - not necessarily a bad one, but it's one that seems to define American leftists. Ditto with American individualism - that is also a cultural norm that a VERY significant amount of your fellow countrymen have used to define their identities, it is never, ever going away. That doesn't mean NOTHING can change, but just pretending that every country is identical and interchangeable is not how the world works. To think otherwise is foolish.
If you don't believe me, ask your friends, neighbors and colleagues if they would truly be okay with paying 2x their current income taxes and paying a 25% sales tax (up to 50% on booze and petrol), because that's how the Scandinavian welfare state is funded. You'd be surprised at how many supposed liberals become raving libertarians at such a radical concept. I've tried it on visits back to the US (in a left-leaning area) and the responses were sobering.
Again, would love to be proven wrong, just trying to inject a dose of realism here. Since it's obviously not wanted I'll just bow out now.
posted by photo guy at 10:15 PM on November 12, 2023
Which is a myth that doesn't become more true through repetition.
Maybe this is stated often for a reason. Are you a Scandinavian citizen who has spent most of their life there? Or are you an expert in Scandinavian history? I live there and feel I have a viewpoint to bring. Only Americans would believe that cultural norms are a "myth". The whole belief I see so often on this site that willful thinking and getting riled up enough will magically change any situation, no matter how fucked it is, is in itself a cultural norm - not necessarily a bad one, but it's one that seems to define American leftists. Ditto with American individualism - that is also a cultural norm that a VERY significant amount of your fellow countrymen have used to define their identities, it is never, ever going away. That doesn't mean NOTHING can change, but just pretending that every country is identical and interchangeable is not how the world works. To think otherwise is foolish.
If you don't believe me, ask your friends, neighbors and colleagues if they would truly be okay with paying 2x their current income taxes and paying a 25% sales tax (up to 50% on booze and petrol), because that's how the Scandinavian welfare state is funded. You'd be surprised at how many supposed liberals become raving libertarians at such a radical concept. I've tried it on visits back to the US (in a left-leaning area) and the responses were sobering.
Again, would love to be proven wrong, just trying to inject a dose of realism here. Since it's obviously not wanted I'll just bow out now.
posted by photo guy at 10:15 PM on November 12, 2023
mumimor is Danish
posted by Kattullus at 11:33 PM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Kattullus at 11:33 PM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
Mod note: One removed; just speak for yourself, don't make it personal, and don't attack other members. Guidelines
posted by taz (staff) at 11:57 PM on November 12, 2023
posted by taz (staff) at 11:57 PM on November 12, 2023
Would Americans subsidize increased national happiness without a productivity angle?
Medicaid expansion, CHIP, Child Tax Credit, pandemic CARES act...?
Granted, parental leave didn't pass in 2021 but it still seems viable to me. It seems ripe for a targeted lobbying campaign, unless there's a serious campaign I'm missing. I think such an effort would have to involve some extremely technocratic nitpicking; see Matt Bruenig's critiques of state plans and the watered-down 2021 proposal.
posted by daveliepmann at 12:43 AM on November 13, 2023
Medicaid expansion, CHIP, Child Tax Credit, pandemic CARES act...?
Granted, parental leave didn't pass in 2021 but it still seems viable to me. It seems ripe for a targeted lobbying campaign, unless there's a serious campaign I'm missing. I think such an effort would have to involve some extremely technocratic nitpicking; see Matt Bruenig's critiques of state plans and the watered-down 2021 proposal.
posted by daveliepmann at 12:43 AM on November 13, 2023
Well, Kattullus said it. And also, I have been teaching the history of the Nordic welfare societies for decades now. There is no 1000 year old culture. Before WW1, all of the Nordic countries has widespread poverty and squalor, high levels of child mortality and extreme inequality. We built it, and it wasn't easy. In Denmark, the king tried to reverse democracy and establish an authoritarian rule in 1920. In Sweden, soldiers shot and killed strikers in 1931. There was a similar strike in Norway in -31 as well. Iceland was a Danish colony until 1944.
People visit our countries and start talking about the 1000 year old culture and vikings and whatnot, but what we have here is barely 100 years old, and it still needs construction. Mistakes are made and the demographics change.
Also, the five countries are actually quite different, with different histories and different cultures. It never fails to amaze me how different Sweden is from Denmark, and it's 20 minutes by train, thousands of people cross the bridge every day for work. And that part of Sweden was Danish 360 years ago (so if there was a 1000-year-old culture, you know, there wouldn't be much of a difference).
One of the differences is that Denmark was a very multicultural country up till 1864. In Copenhagen, 1/3 to 1/2 of the population were migrants, from the other Nordic countries, from Germany, from Poland, from the Netherlands, and from the Russian empire including the Baltics and Finland. And even though the numbers were reduced by the 20th century, Copenhagen and Fredericia and a few other places were still populated with a broad mix of people. One of the oldest continuously running schools in Denmark is the German school in Copenhagen.
The other four countries are huge, with very low population densities, and specially in Norway and Sweden part of that is because of the big migration in the late-19th and early 20th centuries. Those people didn't leave a functioning society with a strong sense of community. They left a life of abject misery, with no hope of improvement. Read the great Nordic writers from that period, it's all in the novels, even in Emil from Lönneberg.
I am well aware that the Nordic people themselves love to tell that romantic story of an age-old mystic culture. It was part of the nation-building that was going on in all European countries in the 19th century, and back then it was a progressive position. It was smart of the welfare-builders between the wars to connect the new societies to the old myth, in order to build a popular support for their proposed new society. But it wasn't based on any historical facts.
And today, we should be wary of the type of argument where cultural and historical essences are made to explain social and economic conditions, mainly because it isn't fact-based, but also because it deprives us of our agency as participants in society, and also because nationalism has evolved from a progressive sentiment in the 19th century into a reactionary one in the 20th. And it hasn't improved at all in the 21st.
posted by mumimor at 1:43 AM on November 13, 2023 [32 favorites]
People visit our countries and start talking about the 1000 year old culture and vikings and whatnot, but what we have here is barely 100 years old, and it still needs construction. Mistakes are made and the demographics change.
Also, the five countries are actually quite different, with different histories and different cultures. It never fails to amaze me how different Sweden is from Denmark, and it's 20 minutes by train, thousands of people cross the bridge every day for work. And that part of Sweden was Danish 360 years ago (so if there was a 1000-year-old culture, you know, there wouldn't be much of a difference).
One of the differences is that Denmark was a very multicultural country up till 1864. In Copenhagen, 1/3 to 1/2 of the population were migrants, from the other Nordic countries, from Germany, from Poland, from the Netherlands, and from the Russian empire including the Baltics and Finland. And even though the numbers were reduced by the 20th century, Copenhagen and Fredericia and a few other places were still populated with a broad mix of people. One of the oldest continuously running schools in Denmark is the German school in Copenhagen.
The other four countries are huge, with very low population densities, and specially in Norway and Sweden part of that is because of the big migration in the late-19th and early 20th centuries. Those people didn't leave a functioning society with a strong sense of community. They left a life of abject misery, with no hope of improvement. Read the great Nordic writers from that period, it's all in the novels, even in Emil from Lönneberg.
I am well aware that the Nordic people themselves love to tell that romantic story of an age-old mystic culture. It was part of the nation-building that was going on in all European countries in the 19th century, and back then it was a progressive position. It was smart of the welfare-builders between the wars to connect the new societies to the old myth, in order to build a popular support for their proposed new society. But it wasn't based on any historical facts.
And today, we should be wary of the type of argument where cultural and historical essences are made to explain social and economic conditions, mainly because it isn't fact-based, but also because it deprives us of our agency as participants in society, and also because nationalism has evolved from a progressive sentiment in the 19th century into a reactionary one in the 20th. And it hasn't improved at all in the 21st.
posted by mumimor at 1:43 AM on November 13, 2023 [32 favorites]
OK, so... why aren't Finns in high demand for everything, everywhere? Why aren't they like Level 10 D&D characters waltzing through a Level 5 campaign, in all areas of life, all over the world?
I'm Finnish, lived outside the country for the past two decades and made my career in the UK working for several industries and multinational companies. Being Finnish has helped me in the way that being white, male, and well-educated helps.
To go a bit beyond my own experience, I'd say there are several reasons the above scenario doesn't happen (like population size and soft skills) but my main theory is that Finnish people are used to, and know to demand, the childcare this article talks about, a tight sub-40 hour workweeks, annual holidays (usually including 3 weeks off every summer), overtime compensation, paid sick leave, parental leave etc. These are things that will A. not be provided in a lot of companies and B. get you labelled as "not a team player", "difficult", or "lazy" if you refuse to work beyond your working hours for no compensation in most companies I've worked for. Finnish working society, broadly speaking, is pretty strongly in the favour of the worker which makes succeeding in other environments more difficult not "easy mode".
In some industries Finnish people are in high demand including engineering and forestry. And for a while when Nokia ruled, mobile phone tech and infrastructure.
I know people who went abroad for careers and went back because even with higher pay that allows you to pay for some of the things above more money rarely translates to more time.
posted by slimepuppy at 5:30 AM on November 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
I'm Finnish, lived outside the country for the past two decades and made my career in the UK working for several industries and multinational companies. Being Finnish has helped me in the way that being white, male, and well-educated helps.
To go a bit beyond my own experience, I'd say there are several reasons the above scenario doesn't happen (like population size and soft skills) but my main theory is that Finnish people are used to, and know to demand, the childcare this article talks about, a tight sub-40 hour workweeks, annual holidays (usually including 3 weeks off every summer), overtime compensation, paid sick leave, parental leave etc. These are things that will A. not be provided in a lot of companies and B. get you labelled as "not a team player", "difficult", or "lazy" if you refuse to work beyond your working hours for no compensation in most companies I've worked for. Finnish working society, broadly speaking, is pretty strongly in the favour of the worker which makes succeeding in other environments more difficult not "easy mode".
In some industries Finnish people are in high demand including engineering and forestry. And for a while when Nokia ruled, mobile phone tech and infrastructure.
I know people who went abroad for careers and went back because even with higher pay that allows you to pay for some of the things above more money rarely translates to more time.
posted by slimepuppy at 5:30 AM on November 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
the simplest, kindest way to solve that problem
That right there was the one sentence that just bushwhacked me. American government doesn't work from that mentality. Imagine if they did. But is it even possible?
posted by dlugoczaj at 7:11 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
That right there was the one sentence that just bushwhacked me. American government doesn't work from that mentality. Imagine if they did. But is it even possible?
posted by dlugoczaj at 7:11 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you don't believe me, ask your friends, neighbors and colleagues if they would truly be okay with paying 2x their current income taxes and paying a 25% sales tax (up to 50% on booze and petrol), because that's how the Scandinavian welfare state is funded.
So actually the OECD does track this and concluded that relative to the OECD average, the United States is characterised by higher revenues from taxes on personal income, profits and gains, and higher revenues from property taxes, but a lower proportion of revenues from taxes on corporate income & gains and social security contributions.
The tax wedge for workers is higher in Finland. I’m always unsure though how to account for health insurance and copayment costs in that because the premiums and copayments my American family members pay is way more than the tax difference (but they may be unusual).
posted by warriorqueen at 7:42 AM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
So actually the OECD does track this and concluded that relative to the OECD average, the United States is characterised by higher revenues from taxes on personal income, profits and gains, and higher revenues from property taxes, but a lower proportion of revenues from taxes on corporate income & gains and social security contributions.
The tax wedge for workers is higher in Finland. I’m always unsure though how to account for health insurance and copayment costs in that because the premiums and copayments my American family members pay is way more than the tax difference (but they may be unusual).
posted by warriorqueen at 7:42 AM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Scandinavian countries are a minority of the OECD, though..*maybe* most of the other countries have tax funded health care in common?
posted by Selena777 at 7:55 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 7:55 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I haven’t watched the video yet, sorry, but I frequently think about how recent Finland’s history of land redistribution is (to extend mumimor’s examples, I think?).
Not that the US doesn’t redistribuye land — but seems to me we do it with the opposite effect.
posted by clew at 10:38 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not that the US doesn’t redistribuye land — but seems to me we do it with the opposite effect.
posted by clew at 10:38 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Scandinavian countries are a minority of the OECD, though
True but the chart locates both Finland and the US (and Scandinavian countries - just a note that Finland is sometimes considered Scandinavian but when I was there the Finns I met were very clear that they do not share that categorization :)) if you want to compare.
And oops, sorry, this should have been the second chart. Belgium, Germany, France, Italy, and Austria all beat Finland. All of them do have a high income related tax wedge, which is definitely something. But when I think about how apartments work in Vienna that's when I sort of think...it really depends on the whole picture.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:01 AM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
True but the chart locates both Finland and the US (and Scandinavian countries - just a note that Finland is sometimes considered Scandinavian but when I was there the Finns I met were very clear that they do not share that categorization :)) if you want to compare.
And oops, sorry, this should have been the second chart. Belgium, Germany, France, Italy, and Austria all beat Finland. All of them do have a high income related tax wedge, which is definitely something. But when I think about how apartments work in Vienna that's when I sort of think...it really depends on the whole picture.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:01 AM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
The tax thing is so complicated. Denmark is at the very top of the OECD list, but there are so many things we pay over our taxes that it is really hard to compare. We have free education and living stipends for students up till and including the PhD level, but also down to secondary school, including for students who still live at home, but whose parents have low incomes. Obviously healthcare is free (though weirdly not dentistry from 24-65. I have no idea why. But everyone can get free dental care at the universities if they don't have an insurance). Childcare is subsidized. Everyone gets a national pension, even rich people. If you are poor, your rent will be subsidized. If you are disabled you will get a pension. I get a subsidy to keep my land wild rather than farming it.
Lots of rich people threaten to move out of Denmark because of the high taxes, but very few do so, and often those that do have other personal reasons as well. Like escaping DOI stuff. Even for the ultra-rich, the high-quality education, healthcare and general security is worth the higher taxes. For decades, the ultra rich would come to Danish hospitals for a number of treatments. I'm afraid that isn't the case anymore, because as I wrote above, mistakes are made all the time. They do go to other welfare states, because welfare states do medical research and care really well.
For businesses, the access to qualified workers and the stability of the government overrules the tax issues. Danish workers at all levels are extremely productive. 20 years (or something) ago, I visited a Danish and an American plant manufacturing the same product. The American plant was a huge, smoky, and dirty structure, where everything was hand welded by underpaid laborers who worked on shifts of 40+ hours. The Danish plant was entirely managed with robotics, and the technicians all got a very fair living wage and worked 37 hours a week in the daytime. Their education from unskilled workers to technicians was paid for by the company. This was twenty years ago, much has changed, and both factories are closed, but the point is that the US factory didn't have an incentive to increase productivity. (The Danish manufacturer has regretted moving its production to Poland, so things may still develop. The US production will not return). The workers at the Danish factory had no problem finding new jobs. I worry about the US workers I interviewed, because they depended on the manufactorer for their health insurances, and I have no idea what equivalent jobs they found in Tennessee.
posted by mumimor at 1:25 PM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Lots of rich people threaten to move out of Denmark because of the high taxes, but very few do so, and often those that do have other personal reasons as well. Like escaping DOI stuff. Even for the ultra-rich, the high-quality education, healthcare and general security is worth the higher taxes. For decades, the ultra rich would come to Danish hospitals for a number of treatments. I'm afraid that isn't the case anymore, because as I wrote above, mistakes are made all the time. They do go to other welfare states, because welfare states do medical research and care really well.
For businesses, the access to qualified workers and the stability of the government overrules the tax issues. Danish workers at all levels are extremely productive. 20 years (or something) ago, I visited a Danish and an American plant manufacturing the same product. The American plant was a huge, smoky, and dirty structure, where everything was hand welded by underpaid laborers who worked on shifts of 40+ hours. The Danish plant was entirely managed with robotics, and the technicians all got a very fair living wage and worked 37 hours a week in the daytime. Their education from unskilled workers to technicians was paid for by the company. This was twenty years ago, much has changed, and both factories are closed, but the point is that the US factory didn't have an incentive to increase productivity. (The Danish manufacturer has regretted moving its production to Poland, so things may still develop. The US production will not return). The workers at the Danish factory had no problem finding new jobs. I worry about the US workers I interviewed, because they depended on the manufactorer for their health insurances, and I have no idea what equivalent jobs they found in Tennessee.
posted by mumimor at 1:25 PM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
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This sucks. The lesson should be that you have to bring Finland home with you. Bring New Zealand home with you. Wherever you think you're going to flee to, you should try to build that at home.
Later in the video a government minister is told that men in the UK get two weeks paternity leave and replies 'why don't the men rebel?' Yeah! Why not? Start the rebellion! The same lady, given the follow up that paternity leave is expensive, gives the most pure, honest, level-headed, where-are-your-priorities answer - maybe you should tax the rich more.
Can I get that on a t-shirt? Fuck it, I might get that tattoo'd over my heart.
There's a lot to admire here. I like the golden nudes in the parliament. I like the library from space. I'm an Australian though, Finland's weather would kill me. I guess the answer is to bring the lessons home and demand better. And if anyone says it can't be done, you can point out that it has been done.
posted by adept256 at 11:30 PM on November 11, 2023 [18 favorites]