"Best Practices for Media Relations in a Time of Defund the Police"

November 17, 2023 4:43 AM

Why Do Cops Keep Lying?, an excerpt from Canadian journalist Cecil Rosner's upcoming book Manipulating the Message.
posted by clawsoon (26 comments total)

Thank you for posting this; the piece mentions some American events including George Floyd's murder and the reaction to it so even though this is Canadian I hope it's okay if I talk a bit about the US as well.

My spouse worked briefly for a public defender and something he learned pretty quickly is that cops lie. They lie all the time, about stuff that matters and stuff that doesn't matter, including under oath, and it seems like no one in power cares even though sometimes it's very obvious, and the media often credulously accepts the police narrative without doing the most basic research or corroboration. There was a Jewish Voice for Peace action at the DNC the other day and the Capitol Police are talking about protestors pepper spraying them and CNN is just repeating it even though there's video and pictures showing the police pepper spraying protesters but no evidence I've seen that the reverse happened. I have friends who were there who have said that it was an act of peaceful civil disobedience until the cops showed up and brought violence into the space but that's not the narrative I'm seeing. I'm not trying to get into an argument about this specific action or what constitutes peaceful civil disobedience, just demonstrate who gets their perspective amplified by the media because CNN has certainly not asked anyone I know what they say happened.

I was very much raised to trust and respect the police (my mom always said that if I was lost I should ask a police officer for directions) and it's been very challenging and disillusioning and really shaken me as I've learned more about how the police operate and the experiences of people from demographics and backgrounds other than my own (and also coming out as trans and feeling more vulnerable to law enforcement, plus going to a lot of protests and seeing how the police interact with various people at them). I resisted for a long time the understanding that cops lie and you can't trust them partially because it raises a lot of bigger questions about the government and the media and who you actually can trust and who will protect you and how safe you really are which have been scary for me but also very important. Thank you again for making this post, I think it's really valuable and important to document this and talk about it.
posted by an octopus IRL at 5:35 AM on November 17, 2023 [65 favorites]

Thank you for posting this.

(US-related:) It's not just that lie, it's that we pay them to! And it's not just that we pay them to lie about routine things like the article discusses, but that we pay for them to entire have entire public relation departments dedicated to churning out lies. And then the police "union" has their own additional media department (which we only pay for indirectly).
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:27 AM on November 17, 2023 [12 favorites]

The close personal relationship between the police, local prosecutors, and the media's cozy reporting is and has been problematic (to say the least)

In Minneapolis, without much fanfare, one of the local affiliates dutifully reported the unedited "stories" for the Minneapolis Police - by the one reporter who was MARRIED TO THE POLICE UNION BOSS (Universal POS Bob Kroll) why was an obvious conflict of interest not mentioned? because it was their "On the scene" "Truth right from the source"

No need to ever go back (with any sort of journalistic ethic) and update stories, no updates to, for, or about anyone who did not fit the police's narrative.

Don't listen to cops. Best advice ever.
posted by djseafood at 6:41 AM on November 17, 2023 [15 favorites]

Second to “don’t talk to cops” tho.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:05 AM on November 17, 2023 [22 favorites]

Reminder of 3 things when it comes to talking the cops. Shut up. Keep shutting up. Shut up some more.
posted by rough ashlar at 8:05 AM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]

The cops and the courts know they're illegitimate. Like all violent people, they believe it is justified by their moral code.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:13 AM on November 17, 2023 [9 favorites]

I was just thinking about this story the other day. A Seattle bus driver politely called out some cops for failing to do their job, so the cops lied to try to get the bus driver fired.

And they colluded! They both claimed the bus driver said exactly "You got three fucking deputies out here that don't do nothing", when the video showed that he actually said "I'm not yelling at you, sergeant. ... I'm expressing how frustrated I am at the fact that I've got three deputies that don't do anything when I need help."
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 8:25 AM on November 17, 2023 [44 favorites]

Alec K's Copaganda newsletter is a must read if want ongoing coverage on how police use the media to shape the narrative.
posted by CostcoCultist at 8:58 AM on November 17, 2023 [16 favorites]

they would ensure the accused appeared before a judge in a suburban courtroom where reporters rarely ventured.

It's not that I can't believe that this happens, but what is going on in that sentence? Like, how do they ensure this? Is picking the location for a hearing the purview of police in Canada or do they advise the courts who decide on locations or what?
posted by Ashenmote at 9:56 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]

Wednesday's Wonkette Tabs had this to say about the following, "How many of the horrendous abuses of power in Radley Balko’s intern’s list can you get through? Your kitchen floor isn’t going to lie on itself!"

“Roundup: Baton Rouge police kept a torture black site, local officials arrest critics and protesters, Texas prepares to execute a man convicted with disproven Shaken Baby Syndrome, . . . and 76 hams,” Radley Balko, The Watch, 09 November 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 10:26 AM on November 17, 2023 [6 favorites]

On the Toronto and possibly Ontario subreddits whenever someone posts an article about police malfeasance a user pops up with a list of similar such articles from 2023 and it is a really long list and they've had to cut off entries to keep its length somewhat in check. If a judge has made a finding of fact that a police officer has lied in their testimony then there really ought to be some kind of measurable consequence for the officer and potentially their department/division depending on how many other officers have similar findings against them.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:07 AM on November 17, 2023 [10 favorites]

A weird undergraduate scheduling quirk in the 1990s put me in Clark McPhail's sociology class at the University of Illinois. He was at the time a leading scholar of police behavior in protest environments. Mostly studying protests of the 1960s-70s in the US, he found that police were consistently the initiators of violence in public protests.

We knew it then; we know it now.
posted by pantarei70 at 12:16 PM on November 17, 2023 [12 favorites]

Do cops not have to take oaths to testify? Is lying under oath not contempt? Is contempt not a criminal offence? Little confused here.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:50 PM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]

I think it would be perjury, and yes that is a crime but somehow the Crown doesn't find the time to prosecute it.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:55 PM on November 17, 2023 [7 favorites]

I got a citation from a California Highway Patrol officer. It was bogus, retaliation for a complaint I had filed earlier. I had passed him at 55 mph while he was on the side of the road, He claimed to have seen a seat belt violation, so he peeled out and chased me down.

In court when I testified, I told the judge some specific questions to ask the officer, sitting two feet away from me. The officer's answers revealed that he was lying.

After a 20 minute trial, the judge said, "Officer XXXX, I do not find your testimony credible. I am acquitting the defendant."

Later on a friend who is an actual famous criminal defense attorney was astonished that I had beaten a CHP officer in court. He said, "Traffic court is the most rigged tribunal in the world. It's like Russia. Nobody gets acquitted."

It helped me to know that the officer was lying and to have the ability to prove that. Even after the judge FOUND that he lied, there were no consequences for the CHP officer's attempt to set me up.
posted by Repack Rider at 3:14 PM on November 17, 2023 [16 favorites]

Repack Rider, I too have beaten traffic cops in court at least once. My favorite time was when I handed the judge the citation the officer issued to me on February 29, 2014. The judge warned me when I walked into the courtroom that day that almost no one was able to get out of a speeding ticket, but he laughed and immediately ruled in my favor after looking at the piece of paper I'd signed.

(Look it up and you'll understand how I got off - that date doesn't exist on that year's calendar.)
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 3:23 PM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]

Later on a friend who is an actual famous criminal defense attorney was astonished that I had beaten a CHP officer in court. He said, "Traffic court is the most rigged tribunal in the world. It's like Russia. Nobody gets acquitted."

It helped me to know that the officer was lying and to have the ability to prove that. Even after the judge FOUND that he lied, there were no consequences for the CHP officer's attempt to set me up.

You may have derived some satisfaction from the acquittal and not had to have had to suffer further punishment from fines or other penalty but the trooper managed to force you to waste what I am assuming was probably most of a day of your time and probably your limited PTO.

Meanwhile they likely got paid several hours' overtime compensation for showing up to lie to the court and the next time they are called in they will presumably still enjoy the presumption of honesty that they should rightfully have forfeited.

The system is infuriating indeed.
posted by Nerd of the North at 3:32 PM on November 17, 2023 [16 favorites]

> seanmpuckett: "Is contempt not a criminal offence?"

Unfortunately, criminal offenses are pursued by district attorneys and Crown prosecutors, who work daily, hand-in-hand with police forces. They're all on the same side together and thus are not inclined to pursue perjury cases against cops. I mean, we know that DAs in certain jurisdictions in the US keep lists of cops they know not to call as witnesses because of their track record of lying (poorly) on the stand. And yet, even these cops that the DA knows have a history of perjury remain unprosecuted.

tl;dr: cops are largely above the law
posted by mhum at 3:58 PM on November 17, 2023 [5 favorites]

Do cops not have to take oaths to testify? Is lying under oath not contempt? Is contempt not a criminal offence? Little confused here.

Public defender here, and the answer is enforcement of crimes is extremely selective, and the system basically requires the close personal aquaintances/friends of cops to decide to press charges. Plus little white lies further the game of getting the folks those people think must have at least done something. Whenever someone talks about someone breaking the law, the important question is: what is the remedy and who enforces it?

There is a very strong professional allegiance between the Bar - incuding judges - and the police force that basically assumes good faith mistakes for colleagues and assumes guilt for defendants. Cops decide who becomes a defendant. Its all extremely fucked. Hope this helps!
posted by likeatoaster at 4:01 PM on November 17, 2023 [11 favorites]

Unfortunately, criminal offenses are pursued by district attorneys and Crown prosecutors, who work daily, hand-in-hand with police forces. They're all on the same side together and thus are not inclined to pursue perjury cases against cops. I mean, we know that DAs in certain jurisdictions in the US keep lists of cops they know not to call as witnesses because of their track record of lying (poorly) on the stand. And yet, even these cops that the DA knows have a history of perjury remain unprosecuted.

Cook County IL (Chicago basically) has such a list and it has been FOIA'd and published.

The thing is these are only the most egregious liars who have somehow been caught out very publicly in a way that the criminal defence lawyers can discover and thus threaten the success of a DA's case. It doesn't even include all of the cops who stood around while Van Dyke pumped bullets into Laquan Mcdonald and then filed false reports about it.

So it is important to understand the DA list isn't about justice or truth. It is just about managing a DA's performance statistics, conviction rate in particular.
posted by srboisvert at 5:17 PM on November 17, 2023 [9 favorites]

I covered district court for a newspaper, and noticed pretty quickly that cops' descriptions of defendant behavior for DUIs and drug possession cases were strikingly familiar.

EVERY defendant in a DUI had "glassy eyes" and alcohol on their breath when the cop observed them, EVERY defendant in a marijuana case produced a smell noticeable outside the door, etc., etc., etc.

I figured out pretty early that they were basically following a script. Never did figure out how to report that to the public.
posted by Brachinus at 4:47 AM on November 18, 2023 [9 favorites]

The cops clearly lie when it's to their advantage. The weirdest part is when they lie when it makes no difference to them. I have a close friend who suffered a mental health crisis and anonymous police sources leaked to the media that he was on LSD. He later passed all drug tests, had all charges dismissed and expunged, but he still struggles with the Google problem. All because some cops decided to randomly gossip to the media about him. I was not able to get the outlets to retract the stories.
posted by dantheclamman at 11:17 AM on November 18, 2023 [4 favorites]

Lies like that set up a narrative for when things go sideways as so often happens when cops show up.
posted by Mitheral at 1:16 PM on November 18, 2023 [1 favorite]

A good time to remind everyone that that police management types are expensive. Even a small town police chief costs north of 200k a year in pay (doesn't include payroll taxes or benfits)
Each town wants there own police force and it wastes billions a year in duplicated management compared to if we'd switch over from muni to county police (and fire system.)
posted by Fupped Duck at 4:58 PM on November 19, 2023

Cook County IL (Chicago basically) has such a list and it has been FOIA'd and published.

Cook County just added a 10 cops with Oath Keeper ties to their don't use for testimony list.
posted by srboisvert at 2:17 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]

Are you telling me that Oath Keepers don't keep their oaths?
posted by clawsoon at 3:48 PM on November 20, 2023