That feel of convenience has always been a trick of perception
November 19, 2023 1:59 AM Subscribe
Perhaps an even larger issue than the problems that self-checkout directly creates is the set of behaviors its presence can enable—from executives, from employees, and from customers. Retail executives, looking for any available corner to cut in order to juice short-term profitability, took self-checkout’s proliferation as a license to trim store staffing to the bone. Many stores are now messier, their shelves go unstocked for longer, and customers have a harder time finding the products they’re looking for or employees to answer their questions. Retail jobs, which have long been low-paying, precarious, and unpleasant, are now even worse. from Self-Checkout Is a Failed Experiment [The Atlantic; ungated]
It’s shit in Australia - all the same problems
posted by awfurby at 2:31 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by awfurby at 2:31 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
I fucking love self checkouts. I do not want anyone going through my shopping and possibly judging me for it. Also being on checkouts was the worst part of working in a supermarket. Get me on stacking shelves, rotating stock, anything but fucking tills. It's not fun for either party. I'm fully with wakannai on this (though we do have item detection in the bagging area, a properly calibrated machine doesn't give many false positives - I need staff intervention one time in maybe fifty).
posted by Dysk at 2:54 AM on November 19, 2023 [35 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 2:54 AM on November 19, 2023 [35 favorites]
I'm not surprised a country that has people working as fucking door greeters at many supermarkets would find self checkouts terrible though - it's indicative of a different attitude toward and expectation with regard to levels of service.
posted by Dysk at 2:56 AM on November 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 2:56 AM on November 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
Where I live, bringing your own reusable bags to the store is uncommon, and most checkout clerks treat them as an annoyance and don't use them very efficiently. At the self-checkout, I can easily put all of my shopping for a week in two large reusable bags, but a clerk inevitably sends me off with two half full reusable bags and a bunch of plastic bags. I agree that they are very fast at bagging things in plastic bags, but those are ridiculously wasteful and contributing microplastics into the environment like crazy. The best solution for this is to have more local folks bring in reusable bags so the employees become more used to the whole idea. Until that happens, I prefer self-checkout.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:25 AM on November 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 3:25 AM on November 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
I have been refusing to use the hideous robots on principle since my local stupormarket duopoly first installed them. Do Not Want. I will queue for as long as it takes to buy my stuff from an actual human, and if that starts to take absurd amounts of time because the company has used the hideous robots as an excuse to sack people then I will start buying my groceries elsewhere.
Where I live, only Aldi really has the whole checkout thing nailed. They have long conveyor belts to unload the carts onto, long enough that three to four customers can have goods ready to be scanned. They have enough of those little dividers that a belt full of customer goods can be using one each and there are still enough in the little slot that the operator can easily punt one all the way to the head end of the belt. They don't bag anything at the checkouts, so everything that goes through the checkout goes straight back in the trolley without wasting time. Unlike every other supermarket operating in this country they give the checkout staff an ergonomically sound workstation that includes a decent chair. And they're good at keeping enough checkout stations open to deal with demand, so the whole process of approaching, waiting for, then leaving the checkout is almost always faster at Aldi than anywhere else.
The only trick they've missed is that if something goes wrong with a transaction once all the goods have been scanned - insufficient funds behind a card, say, so that the customer needs to faff about a bit on their phone to make the card work again - they apparently don't have a way to put that transaction on hold so that the next customer can go through.
Scanning groceries quickly and accurately is skilled work, and I appreciate the time and effort that skilled checkout operators save me. Coles and Woolworths chose tech that displaces all that skill; instead, they shove the work back on me, offering only unreliable, cranky, overcrowded, unbearably saccharine fake-happy tools to do it with and they run higher margins than Aldi.
If my local Aldi would only settle on a consistent and slightly expanded range of staples instead of occupying literally half its floor area with an unpredictable assortment of bizarre fly-by-night Special Buys, I would have no good reason to buy commodity groceries anywhere else. As things stand at present, sometimes Woolworths gets my business because sometimes not having to take the time to navigate two separate shops is worth paying their premium prices for.
posted by flabdablet at 3:36 AM on November 19, 2023 [26 favorites]
Where I live, only Aldi really has the whole checkout thing nailed. They have long conveyor belts to unload the carts onto, long enough that three to four customers can have goods ready to be scanned. They have enough of those little dividers that a belt full of customer goods can be using one each and there are still enough in the little slot that the operator can easily punt one all the way to the head end of the belt. They don't bag anything at the checkouts, so everything that goes through the checkout goes straight back in the trolley without wasting time. Unlike every other supermarket operating in this country they give the checkout staff an ergonomically sound workstation that includes a decent chair. And they're good at keeping enough checkout stations open to deal with demand, so the whole process of approaching, waiting for, then leaving the checkout is almost always faster at Aldi than anywhere else.
The only trick they've missed is that if something goes wrong with a transaction once all the goods have been scanned - insufficient funds behind a card, say, so that the customer needs to faff about a bit on their phone to make the card work again - they apparently don't have a way to put that transaction on hold so that the next customer can go through.
Scanning groceries quickly and accurately is skilled work, and I appreciate the time and effort that skilled checkout operators save me. Coles and Woolworths chose tech that displaces all that skill; instead, they shove the work back on me, offering only unreliable, cranky, overcrowded, unbearably saccharine fake-happy tools to do it with and they run higher margins than Aldi.
If my local Aldi would only settle on a consistent and slightly expanded range of staples instead of occupying literally half its floor area with an unpredictable assortment of bizarre fly-by-night Special Buys, I would have no good reason to buy commodity groceries anywhere else. As things stand at present, sometimes Woolworths gets my business because sometimes not having to take the time to navigate two separate shops is worth paying their premium prices for.
posted by flabdablet at 3:36 AM on November 19, 2023 [26 favorites]
I use self-checkouts a lot, and most of the issues I have are not with the concept of self-checkout itself but with the terrible, terrible UI design on the checkout screens. The instructions are never very clear, buttons move around, and increasingly they insert little pop-ups telling me about something I don't especially care about. It should be very simple, but they've made it more complicated than it needs to be.
posted by synecdoche at 3:37 AM on November 19, 2023 [36 favorites]
posted by synecdoche at 3:37 AM on November 19, 2023 [36 favorites]
I'd be in favor of self checkout express. Scan my face, irises, whatever. Whole Foods already scanned my palms but can’t remember that they checked my ID last time.
Self checkout but you’ll invariably need our help is a waste of time and resources.
posted by emelenjr at 3:42 AM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
Self checkout but you’ll invariably need our help is a waste of time and resources.
posted by emelenjr at 3:42 AM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
At the self-checkout, I can easily put all of my shopping for a week in two large reusable bags
NY has been "bring your own bags" for a while now, and the stores like it because they don't have to order, stock, use, and restock plastic bags. I live on the second floor. EVERYTHING that I buy *I* need to carry from my car (parked on the street, hopefully close to my house) upstairs and through the apartment to the kitchen in the back.
So, I want to minimize the number of bags while distributing the weight evenly among them, AND I want all the frozen and refrigerated food to ALL end up in the thermally insulated bag. Self-checkout lets me put each item EXACTLY where I want it while the grocery store staff is more concerned with getting you out of there as fast as possible.
But yes, the problem is the store management who uses them to cut staff. And since there isn't enough staff at the store to ensure proper coverage, shitty people feel enabled to act shitty. Which makes store management consider hiring an armed security guard. Who HAS to cost more than the few-more employees whose presence on the sales floor would reduce the shitty behaviour more than the rent-a-cop with a gun standing by the entrance/exit NOT EVEN GREETING PEOPLE!
posted by mikelieman at 3:49 AM on November 19, 2023 [22 favorites]
NY has been "bring your own bags" for a while now, and the stores like it because they don't have to order, stock, use, and restock plastic bags. I live on the second floor. EVERYTHING that I buy *I* need to carry from my car (parked on the street, hopefully close to my house) upstairs and through the apartment to the kitchen in the back.
So, I want to minimize the number of bags while distributing the weight evenly among them, AND I want all the frozen and refrigerated food to ALL end up in the thermally insulated bag. Self-checkout lets me put each item EXACTLY where I want it while the grocery store staff is more concerned with getting you out of there as fast as possible.
But yes, the problem is the store management who uses them to cut staff. And since there isn't enough staff at the store to ensure proper coverage, shitty people feel enabled to act shitty. Which makes store management consider hiring an armed security guard. Who HAS to cost more than the few-more employees whose presence on the sales floor would reduce the shitty behaviour more than the rent-a-cop with a gun standing by the entrance/exit NOT EVEN GREETING PEOPLE!
posted by mikelieman at 3:49 AM on November 19, 2023 [22 favorites]
Scan my face, irises, whatever
I am so looking forward to watching kids grow up believing that jailbreaking their Neuralinks in order to block access to the advertisers who have paid good money for access to them is not only a felony but clearly immoral as well.
posted by flabdablet at 3:55 AM on November 19, 2023 [46 favorites]
I am so looking forward to watching kids grow up believing that jailbreaking their Neuralinks in order to block access to the advertisers who have paid good money for access to them is not only a felony but clearly immoral as well.
posted by flabdablet at 3:55 AM on November 19, 2023 [46 favorites]
I'm firmly on team Self Checkout precisely because I have worked as a cashier. It's a monotonous, robotic job that makes perfect sense to cede to the machines. I often hear people say (including in this thread) that they want a human connection, but working checkout is an absolutely dehumanizing experience. It's a repetitive slog of the most shallow of human interaction punctuated by hearing the same three jokes over and over, and that's when the customers aren't taking their latent frustration about capitalism out on you.
And also, I don't need someone judging my groceries. Yes, all of that cheese is for me.
posted by Panjandrum at 3:59 AM on November 19, 2023 [69 favorites]
And also, I don't need someone judging my groceries. Yes, all of that cheese is for me.
posted by Panjandrum at 3:59 AM on November 19, 2023 [69 favorites]
I love the concept of self-checkout. I don’t care whether it’s faster, I care that I don’t have to make excruciating small talk with the cashier and I can distribute the groceries between my reusable bags correctly (thinking about weight distribution, how a particular one if overloaded will cut into my hands and be unpleasant to carry, etc).
But then, anything self-checkouts can do in that respect, Aldi manned checkouts do better, by avoiding all the issues the absolute garbage self-checkouts have. Using a reusable bag? Whoops, unexpected item in bagging area. Tiny or awkwardly positioned barcode? Good luck getting that to scan at all. Need to cancel an item? You need a store assistant for that, and they’re nowhere to be seen. And so on, and so forth.
In the supermarkets that do it (Tesco, in the UK), I use the alternate form, which is scan-as-you-shop. You get a scan gun, and scan each product as you put it in your cart; at the end, you scan a barcode on the till, and it loads your purchases into it.
It tends to work better, as the scan gun is less finicky than an average self-checkout. You can bag yourself as you go, though I tend to wait until after I’ve paid, as there’s the occasional random check that requires a store assistant to rescan ~10 of your items, and unbagging is an annoyance.
Still, give me the Aldi manned checkouts any day…
posted by sailoreagle at 3:59 AM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
But then, anything self-checkouts can do in that respect, Aldi manned checkouts do better, by avoiding all the issues the absolute garbage self-checkouts have. Using a reusable bag? Whoops, unexpected item in bagging area. Tiny or awkwardly positioned barcode? Good luck getting that to scan at all. Need to cancel an item? You need a store assistant for that, and they’re nowhere to be seen. And so on, and so forth.
In the supermarkets that do it (Tesco, in the UK), I use the alternate form, which is scan-as-you-shop. You get a scan gun, and scan each product as you put it in your cart; at the end, you scan a barcode on the till, and it loads your purchases into it.
It tends to work better, as the scan gun is less finicky than an average self-checkout. You can bag yourself as you go, though I tend to wait until after I’ve paid, as there’s the occasional random check that requires a store assistant to rescan ~10 of your items, and unbagging is an annoyance.
Still, give me the Aldi manned checkouts any day…
posted by sailoreagle at 3:59 AM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
Love self check out. It has its issues sometimes, but the ability to scan things in the order I want, to pack them how I want to pack them, to not interact with another person is well worth it. I also fully support more automation. In the future a person scanning your groceries will seems archaic as a elevator operator does today.
posted by corpse at 4:03 AM on November 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by corpse at 4:03 AM on November 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a scan gun failing to read a barcode — forever.
posted by signal at 4:09 AM on November 19, 2023 [34 favorites]
posted by signal at 4:09 AM on November 19, 2023 [34 favorites]
Pah. Self checkout. Are you people living in the dark ages? I pick up a scanner on my way in to the store, scan and bag everything as I go round, and waltz out in a flash when I'm done. It's telling that on the odd occasion when I buy something that requires an age check, that tiny delay now feels very irritating indeed. Sometimes I just order on line and eagerly await arrival, trading convenience for poorly selected fresh veg.
I think there are some interesting things about level of trust and expectation of service in a society that play into all this. I live in a small, provincial city, which probably makes my self-checkout / self-scan experience better. I recently had occasion to do a supermarket shop in a much larger city and was surprised to discover that I had to present my receipt to a separate scanner to open a gate on exit from the self-scan checkout area.
posted by merlynkline at 4:12 AM on November 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think there are some interesting things about level of trust and expectation of service in a society that play into all this. I live in a small, provincial city, which probably makes my self-checkout / self-scan experience better. I recently had occasion to do a supermarket shop in a much larger city and was surprised to discover that I had to present my receipt to a separate scanner to open a gate on exit from the self-scan checkout area.
posted by merlynkline at 4:12 AM on November 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
Self checkout lets me both steal and buy one or two items quickly without waiting in a full line. Seems great.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:13 AM on November 19, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:13 AM on November 19, 2023 [25 favorites]
On reflection, my self-checkout experience has significantly improved since I first encountered it. I guess that both the software and the hardware have evolved. The early experience was clunky (failed scans, poor databases, etc) and paranoid (bagging area presence checks way too picky, trolley checks too frequent, etc). Perhaps some places are earlier on this curve than others.
posted by merlynkline at 4:16 AM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by merlynkline at 4:16 AM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
I avoided self-checkouts on principle until the pandemic, when people would just not stand back, and now there aren't any cashiers anymore, so.
The big problem I had with self-checkout was at the one grocery store that had a weight check for the bagging platform - if I put my panniers or backpack there to bag in, it would freak out and not let me proceed and I had to get a staff member to unlock it, and then half the time it still wouldn't read the weight right. That store upgraded, no doubt at great expense, and their system works much better. But that store is both poor-quality and expensive, so I've moved entirely to Trader Joe's and Aldi and my grocery bill dropped massively, so it doesn't matter now.
Our local Target has shut down the self-checkouts except between 11am and 7pm, ostensibly due to theft. I would believe that was total bullshit except that the one clerk I've chatted idly with for years now seems to think that theft was a genuine problem. Of course, this is the desperation Target - it's the one that was expropriated and resultingly damaged during the George Floyd uprising and right now there are a lot of people who are in pretty bad straits right around there, whether precariously housed or flat unhoused, so it's possible that theft actually is a problem. Naturally in contemporary Minneapolis we don't solve this problem by housing people, we solve it by externalizing it onto businesses, who pass it on to private citizens.
I'm wondering whether Target is working up to closing the store - it is so grim and understocked and poorly staffed. Up through the early 2000s it wasn't lavish, but it was as clean and well-stocked as any other Target and then they just let it go to hell, which was a new policy choice since it's not like our part of MPLS was richer and fancier back then. I used to buy a ton of household goods and even clothes and various trinkets there back when it wasn't just stocked with the shittiest and sparsest selection, but racism means we can't have nice things.
But anyway! My preference for stores would be whatever way of running them creates the most non-horrible jobs. I am confident that I will adjust to whatever this is.
posted by Frowner at 4:17 AM on November 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
The big problem I had with self-checkout was at the one grocery store that had a weight check for the bagging platform - if I put my panniers or backpack there to bag in, it would freak out and not let me proceed and I had to get a staff member to unlock it, and then half the time it still wouldn't read the weight right. That store upgraded, no doubt at great expense, and their system works much better. But that store is both poor-quality and expensive, so I've moved entirely to Trader Joe's and Aldi and my grocery bill dropped massively, so it doesn't matter now.
Our local Target has shut down the self-checkouts except between 11am and 7pm, ostensibly due to theft. I would believe that was total bullshit except that the one clerk I've chatted idly with for years now seems to think that theft was a genuine problem. Of course, this is the desperation Target - it's the one that was expropriated and resultingly damaged during the George Floyd uprising and right now there are a lot of people who are in pretty bad straits right around there, whether precariously housed or flat unhoused, so it's possible that theft actually is a problem. Naturally in contemporary Minneapolis we don't solve this problem by housing people, we solve it by externalizing it onto businesses, who pass it on to private citizens.
I'm wondering whether Target is working up to closing the store - it is so grim and understocked and poorly staffed. Up through the early 2000s it wasn't lavish, but it was as clean and well-stocked as any other Target and then they just let it go to hell, which was a new policy choice since it's not like our part of MPLS was richer and fancier back then. I used to buy a ton of household goods and even clothes and various trinkets there back when it wasn't just stocked with the shittiest and sparsest selection, but racism means we can't have nice things.
But anyway! My preference for stores would be whatever way of running them creates the most non-horrible jobs. I am confident that I will adjust to whatever this is.
posted by Frowner at 4:17 AM on November 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
I pick up a scanner on my way in to the store, scan and bag everything as I go round, and waltz out in a flash when I'm done
This is the way. It’s the absolute best. The main inconvenience is weighing and labeling produce, but it’s still a net win. I have a trunk organizer in my car that I stick in the cart and fill as I go. Then it’s one “bag” straight into the trunk, then into the house. So good.
posted by uncleozzy at 4:18 AM on November 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
This is the way. It’s the absolute best. The main inconvenience is weighing and labeling produce, but it’s still a net win. I have a trunk organizer in my car that I stick in the cart and fill as I go. Then it’s one “bag” straight into the trunk, then into the house. So good.
posted by uncleozzy at 4:18 AM on November 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
Scanning groceries quickly and accurately is skilled work, and I appreciate the time and effort that skilled checkout operators save me
Just because someone can be bad at a job doesn’t mean it’s skilled work. It almost no training, which is why the topic of discussion is not having employees do the task but instead having literally anyone without any training do the task.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:21 AM on November 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
Just because someone can be bad at a job doesn’t mean it’s skilled work. It almost no training, which is why the topic of discussion is not having employees do the task but instead having literally anyone without any training do the task.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:21 AM on November 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
Another vote for self checkouts here. I love being able to do my boring day to day shopping when I want to, how I want to, and with the absolute minimum of human interaction and queuing. Same goes for the scan as you shop systems where they have them.
I worked on the checkouts at Tescos for a year when I was 19. I learned a lot about how horrible seemingly normal people can be to those they perceive as below them from that job. When I do have to use a normal checkout I do my best to be polite and considerate, and also to not waste the time of the person serving me or make their job harder by stacking stuff up stupidly on the conveyor, or dashing off halfway through because I forgot my prosecco, or - worst of all - refusing to pack my own bags and then nitpicking how they get filled from the sidelines. Be nice to your checkout person if you insist on using them.
posted by tomsk at 4:22 AM on November 19, 2023 [17 favorites]
I worked on the checkouts at Tescos for a year when I was 19. I learned a lot about how horrible seemingly normal people can be to those they perceive as below them from that job. When I do have to use a normal checkout I do my best to be polite and considerate, and also to not waste the time of the person serving me or make their job harder by stacking stuff up stupidly on the conveyor, or dashing off halfway through because I forgot my prosecco, or - worst of all - refusing to pack my own bags and then nitpicking how they get filled from the sidelines. Be nice to your checkout person if you insist on using them.
posted by tomsk at 4:22 AM on November 19, 2023 [17 favorites]
I refuse to use self-checkouts, both because I don't like them and because of the effect they have in destroying jobs.
Our local Waitrose has two distinct queues - one for the human checkouts (anywhere from one to three of which are manned depending on how busy the store is) and one for the robo-tills (about a dozen). This morning I breezed through the human till side with no queueing at all, while a line of 20-odd people waited their turn at the self-checkouts. I exchanged a few convivial words with the guy at the till as he packed my shopping in the (rival supermarket's) bag-for-life I'd remembered to bring along and was out on the street again in minutes.
The imbalance isn't always quite as pronounced as that, but it's pretty common for the human option to be quicker in this particular store. Why anyone would prefer to opt for the robots in that situation defeats me. I wonder to what extent it's a generational divide?
posted by Paul Slade at 4:38 AM on November 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
Our local Waitrose has two distinct queues - one for the human checkouts (anywhere from one to three of which are manned depending on how busy the store is) and one for the robo-tills (about a dozen). This morning I breezed through the human till side with no queueing at all, while a line of 20-odd people waited their turn at the self-checkouts. I exchanged a few convivial words with the guy at the till as he packed my shopping in the (rival supermarket's) bag-for-life I'd remembered to bring along and was out on the street again in minutes.
The imbalance isn't always quite as pronounced as that, but it's pretty common for the human option to be quicker in this particular store. Why anyone would prefer to opt for the robots in that situation defeats me. I wonder to what extent it's a generational divide?
posted by Paul Slade at 4:38 AM on November 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm half and half. If it's just me running out for groceries, I use self-checkout. I feel bad because I know stores are doing it to reduce staffing and have the public take on the job of bagging their own shit themselves, but most of the time I cannot with people. When the spousal unit and I go shopping, we always use a cashier. One person to bag all our groceries while the other makes the small talk and pays the bill. I definitely understand both sides. I just use whatever's convenient to my situation at the moment.
posted by Kitteh at 4:39 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 4:39 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
the rent-a-cop with a gun standing by the entrance/exit NOT EVEN GREETING PEOPLE!
I would stop going to any shop that started having someone greet people at the door.
posted by Dysk at 4:40 AM on November 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
I would stop going to any shop that started having someone greet people at the door.
posted by Dysk at 4:40 AM on November 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
Self checkout is an aggravating experience when shopping with my fiddly and intensely curious small child, who will inevitably be climbing all over me, bonking buttons, or moving items all over the place.
If I see that self check is the only option, I turn around and leave. Thanks but no thanks, Target, I'll come back some other time.
posted by champers at 4:42 AM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
If I see that self check is the only option, I turn around and leave. Thanks but no thanks, Target, I'll come back some other time.
posted by champers at 4:42 AM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Self checkout can be pretty good. It's the staffing cuts that make these places awful.
But you know who has really nailed self checkout? Fucking Uniqlo. Everything in the store is labelled with an RFID. Next to each checkout is a nice bin. You just dump everything you want to buy in the bin all at once. Two seconds later you're presented with the list of items and the bill. You pay the bill and you're done. No scanning, no bagging, nothing. Two seconds.
It's so shockingly good that there's an employee who stands near the checkout whose whole job is to explain to people that yes, it's that simple, you're done now again and again.
The most impressive part of this system is how the same tags tie into their inventory and supply management. It's so smart.
posted by phooky at 4:49 AM on November 19, 2023 [63 favorites]
But you know who has really nailed self checkout? Fucking Uniqlo. Everything in the store is labelled with an RFID. Next to each checkout is a nice bin. You just dump everything you want to buy in the bin all at once. Two seconds later you're presented with the list of items and the bill. You pay the bill and you're done. No scanning, no bagging, nothing. Two seconds.
It's so shockingly good that there's an employee who stands near the checkout whose whole job is to explain to people that yes, it's that simple, you're done now again and again.
The most impressive part of this system is how the same tags tie into their inventory and supply management. It's so smart.
posted by phooky at 4:49 AM on November 19, 2023 [63 favorites]
> I don't like them and because of the effect they have in destroying jobs
Without wanting to diminish the sad truths around availability of gainful employment etc, I think that the long game is that these are the sorts of jobs that should be destroyed. I hope that in a functional society*, every checkout operator would far rather, and could, be doing something else.
* Current societies may not be fully functional - use carefully and at your own risk
posted by merlynkline at 4:49 AM on November 19, 2023 [21 favorites]
Without wanting to diminish the sad truths around availability of gainful employment etc, I think that the long game is that these are the sorts of jobs that should be destroyed. I hope that in a functional society*, every checkout operator would far rather, and could, be doing something else.
* Current societies may not be fully functional - use carefully and at your own risk
posted by merlynkline at 4:49 AM on November 19, 2023 [21 favorites]
I do love self checkout for: yup. I'm getting 3 onions And a lime. Or just this box of chicken tenders for lunch. Whatevs.
Anything larger than one grocery bag, and I'm going to a checker if I can. It's the ultimate 10 items or less line for me (except for clearance and age restriction items where the teller is often 10 minutes away because companies gotta save that dime and dont staff enough)
posted by AngelWuff at 4:50 AM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Anything larger than one grocery bag, and I'm going to a checker if I can. It's the ultimate 10 items or less line for me (except for clearance and age restriction items where the teller is often 10 minutes away because companies gotta save that dime and dont staff enough)
posted by AngelWuff at 4:50 AM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
My experience with self-checkout has always been much like my experience in airport security lines. I’m anxious enough about being “that guy” that I always walk into the situation knowing what I need to do and being prepared well ahead of time to get it done and get out, and I always have this sense that a solid 80% of the people around me are just acting like they’ve never even heard of airports before that day. I’m standing there with my shoes off, my laptop and liquids out, just waiting to grab a bin and go, while people desperately try to chug a whole liter of Fiji water in one go, begin unbuttoning their winter coats and unlacing their eighteen-hole Docs, then realize they didn’t wear socks and the floor is gross, pick that moment to start getting philosophical about what does or does not count as a liquid, suddenly remember they have small children that need all the same attention and so forth.
It has occurred to me that there might be some self-flattering narcissism going on here, with a few blind spots and a bit of primary attribution fallacy, and maybe the time I spend when my turn comes up isn’t that much shorter than the average I’m observing while waiting in the line, but it really doesn’t feel that way. I sympathize with the idea that self-checkout is a “failed experiment,” but only because there seems to be a tendency to vastly overestimate the average person’s ability to navigate a situation like this competently.
This does get me to a tangent I can’t help but follow a bit: maybe I sound like a bit of a dick ranting about how everybody but me is dumb, and to an extent I’ll cop to giving that impression (I hear myself), but I also fundamentally think that the expectation that customers will function efficiently as checkers is just an unfair ask. I try to be obsessively on-point because I am a deeply self-conscious person, and a process that requires universal neurosis to avoid descending into chaos has an obvious design flaw. It’s a whole other thread, but I do have ethical concerns about a system designed, as much as for anything else, to undermine unionized labor by having customers do unpaid work. If what’s going on at the self-checkouts is a shit show, and it’s because the average person is pretty awful at that, that was a readily predictable outcome. Grocery chains made the explicit choice to impose that burden on their customers to save money on payroll, and they’re the ones we should be pissed off at, not the guy who didn’t think before bringing six kinds of unlabeled produce and a fifth of Jack into the self-checkout. Whatever basic courtesy to others I might snarkily think he’s neglecting by not doing that thinking, he is not being paid to do it and so does not strictly owe it to anybody.
posted by gelfin at 4:56 AM on November 19, 2023 [29 favorites]
It has occurred to me that there might be some self-flattering narcissism going on here, with a few blind spots and a bit of primary attribution fallacy, and maybe the time I spend when my turn comes up isn’t that much shorter than the average I’m observing while waiting in the line, but it really doesn’t feel that way. I sympathize with the idea that self-checkout is a “failed experiment,” but only because there seems to be a tendency to vastly overestimate the average person’s ability to navigate a situation like this competently.
This does get me to a tangent I can’t help but follow a bit: maybe I sound like a bit of a dick ranting about how everybody but me is dumb, and to an extent I’ll cop to giving that impression (I hear myself), but I also fundamentally think that the expectation that customers will function efficiently as checkers is just an unfair ask. I try to be obsessively on-point because I am a deeply self-conscious person, and a process that requires universal neurosis to avoid descending into chaos has an obvious design flaw. It’s a whole other thread, but I do have ethical concerns about a system designed, as much as for anything else, to undermine unionized labor by having customers do unpaid work. If what’s going on at the self-checkouts is a shit show, and it’s because the average person is pretty awful at that, that was a readily predictable outcome. Grocery chains made the explicit choice to impose that burden on their customers to save money on payroll, and they’re the ones we should be pissed off at, not the guy who didn’t think before bringing six kinds of unlabeled produce and a fifth of Jack into the self-checkout. Whatever basic courtesy to others I might snarkily think he’s neglecting by not doing that thinking, he is not being paid to do it and so does not strictly owe it to anybody.
posted by gelfin at 4:56 AM on November 19, 2023 [29 favorites]
One thing to be wary of with self-scanning is that should you make ANY mistakes, e.g. scanning multiple items in the 'wrong' way, your card may be flagged for regular "quality checks" which can make the whole process far more time consuming than if you just stuck to using regular manned tills.
I think people using self-scan should be paid at least minimum wage for the work they are doing.
posted by Lanark at 5:04 AM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think people using self-scan should be paid at least minimum wage for the work they are doing.
posted by Lanark at 5:04 AM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
It almost no training
That the people who do a job exceedingly well have got to that point by relying more on practice than on training doesn't make the attention that they've paid to their practice any less worthwhile, or the work that they perform any less skilled, or the skills that they demonstrate any less appreciated, or that appreciation any less worthy of being expressed. Not by this particular customer at any rate.
There is a checkout operator at our local Coles who has been there for the whole 23 years I've lived in this district. Hers is the queue I will head for any time I see her on duty, even if it's twice as long as any of the others and entirely composed of harried shoppers with full trollies, because I know I will be through that line and out the door faster than anybody entering the Self Checkout Playpen from Hell at the same time.
Watching her work is a pure pleasure. She's the Rachmaninoff of the register, and the precision and economy of the trajectories that my stuff follows as she guides it off the belt and past the scanner would put NASA to shame. I think I've seen her fail a first scan twice in twenty years.
Neither of us knows the other's name and we have never exchanged more than superficial pleasantries. But I don't ever get bags because I prefer all my stuff just to go back in the trolley, and she never asks me whether I want bags because she just knows.
Unskilled work?
Pfft.
posted by flabdablet at 5:05 AM on November 19, 2023 [78 favorites]
That the people who do a job exceedingly well have got to that point by relying more on practice than on training doesn't make the attention that they've paid to their practice any less worthwhile, or the work that they perform any less skilled, or the skills that they demonstrate any less appreciated, or that appreciation any less worthy of being expressed. Not by this particular customer at any rate.
There is a checkout operator at our local Coles who has been there for the whole 23 years I've lived in this district. Hers is the queue I will head for any time I see her on duty, even if it's twice as long as any of the others and entirely composed of harried shoppers with full trollies, because I know I will be through that line and out the door faster than anybody entering the Self Checkout Playpen from Hell at the same time.
Watching her work is a pure pleasure. She's the Rachmaninoff of the register, and the precision and economy of the trajectories that my stuff follows as she guides it off the belt and past the scanner would put NASA to shame. I think I've seen her fail a first scan twice in twenty years.
Neither of us knows the other's name and we have never exchanged more than superficial pleasantries. But I don't ever get bags because I prefer all my stuff just to go back in the trolley, and she never asks me whether I want bags because she just knows.
Unskilled work?
Pfft.
posted by flabdablet at 5:05 AM on November 19, 2023 [78 favorites]
The Atlantic article doesn't really capture my experience at the store, and I think it misstates history a little. For one thing, there never was a trained cashier at most grocery stores I shopped at, immediately prior to the self-scan. I grew up in the days before scanners, and the cashiers back then were remarkably fast and efficient. The slowest part of the transaction was all the people pulling out their paper checks to pay. But the introduction of scanners meant you could get away with a lot less skill in a cashier--that is, the damage really started much earlier than the self-scan. People generally seemed undertrained, sluggish, unable to resolve problems with their scanning--as you'd expect from a very low-paying job with no security and no reason to stay. Self-scan relieved that a little--the task of learning where all the little barcodes are is now up to you, and nobody's going to fire you from doing the grocery shopping, so that skill and knowledge stays with you and can grow.
Different stores seem to have different approaches that work more or less well. I won't go near the Costco self-scan if it's at all crowded; the shoppers there don't seem to understand how the machines work, and there is constant help from the staff needed, and nobody seems to be moving quickly (here, I think, is a good example of an exception, where trained cashiers still exist). Walmart on the other hand has a big, expansive area where one shopper's problems won't hold up everyone--and oddly, they do seem to have enough staff on hand to resolve any issues or take your ID, etc. On the other hand, they're also very serious about security--I was thoroughly embarrassed one day when their systems thought I was stealing (I wasn't!!!), and an overhead camera shot of me appeared on the screen to erode my soul while I waited for the staff to come by to help.
But every innovation in retail manages to wreck something good. Several people have mentioned bags...I really think the introduction of plastic bags also drained some kind of skill from people, because there's a sort of science to packing a tall paper bag, whereas the excruciating waste of putting one or two small items in each of the thousand plastic bags they send you home with, is very easy and doesn't require skill.
posted by mittens at 5:05 AM on November 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
Different stores seem to have different approaches that work more or less well. I won't go near the Costco self-scan if it's at all crowded; the shoppers there don't seem to understand how the machines work, and there is constant help from the staff needed, and nobody seems to be moving quickly (here, I think, is a good example of an exception, where trained cashiers still exist). Walmart on the other hand has a big, expansive area where one shopper's problems won't hold up everyone--and oddly, they do seem to have enough staff on hand to resolve any issues or take your ID, etc. On the other hand, they're also very serious about security--I was thoroughly embarrassed one day when their systems thought I was stealing (I wasn't!!!), and an overhead camera shot of me appeared on the screen to erode my soul while I waited for the staff to come by to help.
But every innovation in retail manages to wreck something good. Several people have mentioned bags...I really think the introduction of plastic bags also drained some kind of skill from people, because there's a sort of science to packing a tall paper bag, whereas the excruciating waste of putting one or two small items in each of the thousand plastic bags they send you home with, is very easy and doesn't require skill.
posted by mittens at 5:05 AM on November 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
If a corporation replaces humans with robots, I will devote zero energy to resolving subsequent issues in the corporation’s favor.
Your scanner or scale fucked up and can’t find the item in question? That shit is going back in my cart and getting wheeled out to my car.
Fuck you, CEO, that’s the cost of the business model you chose.
posted by FallibleHuman at 5:09 AM on November 19, 2023 [23 favorites]
Your scanner or scale fucked up and can’t find the item in question? That shit is going back in my cart and getting wheeled out to my car.
Fuck you, CEO, that’s the cost of the business model you chose.
posted by FallibleHuman at 5:09 AM on November 19, 2023 [23 favorites]
Self checkout can be pretty good. It's the staffing cuts that make these places awful.
Fine - but you realise that it's the one that leads to the other, right?
I hope that in a functional society*, every checkout operator would far rather, and could, be doing something else.
Tell that to the people sacked from check-out jobs today who are left with no option but cleaning other people's houses or relying on welfare. It's society as it is they have to worry about.
posted by Paul Slade at 5:10 AM on November 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
Fine - but you realise that it's the one that leads to the other, right?
I hope that in a functional society*, every checkout operator would far rather, and could, be doing something else.
Tell that to the people sacked from check-out jobs today who are left with no option but cleaning other people's houses or relying on welfare. It's society as it is they have to worry about.
posted by Paul Slade at 5:10 AM on November 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
Here in South Africa we had self checkouts in some supermarkets for a brief time and then they all abruptly disappeared. I suspect it's because of the very high unemployment rate - we just can't afford to make any more jobs disappear.
posted by Zumbador at 5:13 AM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Zumbador at 5:13 AM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Here in South Africa we had self checkouts in some supermarkets for a brief time and then they all abruptly disappeared.
I had read that SA had problems with property crime but that's kind of extreme!
Impressive coordination, too.
posted by flabdablet at 5:15 AM on November 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
I had read that SA had problems with property crime but that's kind of extreme!
Impressive coordination, too.
posted by flabdablet at 5:15 AM on November 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
gelfin "I’m standing there with my shoes off, my laptop and liquids out, just waiting to grab a bin and go, while people desperately try to chug a whole liter of Fiji water in one go, begin unbuttoning their winter coats and unlacing their eighteen-hole Docs, then realize they didn’t wear socks and the floor is gross, pick that moment to start getting philosophical about what does or does not count as a liquid, suddenly remember they have small children that need all the same attention and so forth.
Being eager and ready to participate in your local security-theater production isn't really the flex you seem to think it is.
posted by signal at 5:20 AM on November 19, 2023 [15 favorites]
Being eager and ready to participate in your local security-theater production isn't really the flex you seem to think it is.
posted by signal at 5:20 AM on November 19, 2023 [15 favorites]
I’m 77. I don’t sob. I have never sobbed After self checkout at meijers I found myself with that new reaction.
posted by JohnR at 5:21 AM on November 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by JohnR at 5:21 AM on November 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
I just don't want to volunteer my time to Target or Walmart or any other private, profit-making enterprise. Fuck you, pay me somehow. We are not in this shit together. We are not friends.
It's like the companies that are ooh you should select electronic billing only. Yeah, I get that it saves you a ton of money. So fuck you, give me some and we can both be happy. Otherwise escucha otra vez: fuck you.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:23 AM on November 19, 2023 [27 favorites]
It's like the companies that are ooh you should select electronic billing only. Yeah, I get that it saves you a ton of money. So fuck you, give me some and we can both be happy. Otherwise escucha otra vez: fuck you.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:23 AM on November 19, 2023 [27 favorites]
I wonder to what extent it's a generational divide?
I think there's a large element of that, older people do seem to favour old fashioned checkouts more, in the UK at least. Obviously that makes sense for a group of people who might be a bit less able to pack quickly or acclimate to unfamiliar technology. Booths in northern England recently rode a wave of approval for stating that they're getting rid of self checkouts and many of the people applauding seemed to older. I was a little surprised as how one sided the response to this was, but I suppose those of us who value minimising human interaction and like to get boring things done as fast as possible are naturally less likely to stop and make a noise about it.
I did see one comment from a gentleman with severe arthritis who said he valued self checkouts because they enabled him to move slowly enough to pack without excessive pain, and without holding others up, whereas checkout staff always rushed him. So it's not always obvious who will prefer what, and both options have their advantages and disadvantages. The best solution surely would be for both to be available, with adequate support staff for demand, so everyone can pay for their shopping in the way the prefer.
posted by tomsk at 5:24 AM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think there's a large element of that, older people do seem to favour old fashioned checkouts more, in the UK at least. Obviously that makes sense for a group of people who might be a bit less able to pack quickly or acclimate to unfamiliar technology. Booths in northern England recently rode a wave of approval for stating that they're getting rid of self checkouts and many of the people applauding seemed to older. I was a little surprised as how one sided the response to this was, but I suppose those of us who value minimising human interaction and like to get boring things done as fast as possible are naturally less likely to stop and make a noise about it.
I did see one comment from a gentleman with severe arthritis who said he valued self checkouts because they enabled him to move slowly enough to pack without excessive pain, and without holding others up, whereas checkout staff always rushed him. So it's not always obvious who will prefer what, and both options have their advantages and disadvantages. The best solution surely would be for both to be available, with adequate support staff for demand, so everyone can pay for their shopping in the way the prefer.
posted by tomsk at 5:24 AM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
If my local Aldi would only settle on a consistent and slightly expanded range of staples instead of occupying literally half its floor area with an unpredictable assortment of bizarre fly-by-night Special Buys, I would have no good reason to buy commodity groceries anywhere else.I believe its proper name is “Aisle of Shite”. Nonetheless Aldi is the best and I wish we had them here in Canada (too much competition from alleged low-price supermarkets owned by the incumbents though).
On topic, I am selective about my self checkout use. If I’m seeking no human interaction and have few items to process (or have little faith in the staff to correctly scan 24 of the same thing), I’ll use it. Sometimes it’s nice though, and Aldi certainly has the process figured out.
posted by clicking the 'Post Comment' button at 5:28 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
We are not in this shit together.
We and your employees, on the other hand, absolutely are.
posted by flabdablet at 5:30 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
We and your employees, on the other hand, absolutely are.
posted by flabdablet at 5:30 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
If a corporation replaces humans with robots,
Man, that ship has sailed LONG ago. Replacing humans with automation is literally how society advanced from the medieval era to the modern era.
Percentage of US labor force employed in agriculture
1800 = 83%
1900 = 33%
1950 = 14%
2020 = 2%
We currently use transponders to pay for tolls so we can drive through them at full highway speed. In the old days all the cars had to come to a stop at a row of booths where workers had to sit in them all day, breathing in leaded petrol fumes. I swear, I heard the same arguments that technological progress was bad because those people would lose their jobs.
I would argue that wages can only go up when productivity goes up, and productivity is a factor of automation. (you can't pay salaries when the company is making losses)
You may rightly ask whether it's the chicken or the egg. Do Australian workers have one of the highest minimum wages in the world because we have so much automation - or do we have so much automation BECAUSE we have one of the highest minimum wages in the world?
(As an example, there are restaurants near me where we sit down, order the food via QR code on the table, the food arrives via one of those robots)
I'd argue they both go hand in hand. Necessity is the mother of invention - the government forces minimum wage upwards, and it forces companies to innovate and automate. But overshooting those efficiency targets is what gives company the profit buffer to signal to the government that they can raise minimum wages further.
posted by xdvesper at 5:30 AM on November 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
Man, that ship has sailed LONG ago. Replacing humans with automation is literally how society advanced from the medieval era to the modern era.
Percentage of US labor force employed in agriculture
1800 = 83%
1900 = 33%
1950 = 14%
2020 = 2%
We currently use transponders to pay for tolls so we can drive through them at full highway speed. In the old days all the cars had to come to a stop at a row of booths where workers had to sit in them all day, breathing in leaded petrol fumes. I swear, I heard the same arguments that technological progress was bad because those people would lose their jobs.
I would argue that wages can only go up when productivity goes up, and productivity is a factor of automation. (you can't pay salaries when the company is making losses)
You may rightly ask whether it's the chicken or the egg. Do Australian workers have one of the highest minimum wages in the world because we have so much automation - or do we have so much automation BECAUSE we have one of the highest minimum wages in the world?
(As an example, there are restaurants near me where we sit down, order the food via QR code on the table, the food arrives via one of those robots)
I'd argue they both go hand in hand. Necessity is the mother of invention - the government forces minimum wage upwards, and it forces companies to innovate and automate. But overshooting those efficiency targets is what gives company the profit buffer to signal to the government that they can raise minimum wages further.
posted by xdvesper at 5:30 AM on November 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
Being eager and ready to participate in your local security-theater production isn't really the flex you seem to think it is.It’s not a “flex” at all. There’s precisely zero percent of this that has anything to do with showing what a “Good Citizen” I am, which is what you seem to be implying, but given the ridiculous system that everybody hates and does next to nothing, there’s no percentage in passive-aggressively making it a bigger hassle than it needs to be for everybody while you’re actually in the line.
posted by gelfin at 5:33 AM on November 19, 2023 [53 favorites]
Do Australian workers have one of the highest minimum wages in the world because we have so much automation - or do we have so much automation BECAUSE we have one of the highest minimum wages in the world?
No. We have one of the highest minimum wages in the world because we have long had one of the strongest union movements in the world, and even though unions everwhere have had the shit beaten out of them since the neoliberal rot set in in the late Eighties, our relative advantage in that respect still stands.
posted by flabdablet at 5:37 AM on November 19, 2023 [22 favorites]
No. We have one of the highest minimum wages in the world because we have long had one of the strongest union movements in the world, and even though unions everwhere have had the shit beaten out of them since the neoliberal rot set in in the late Eighties, our relative advantage in that respect still stands.
posted by flabdablet at 5:37 AM on November 19, 2023 [22 favorites]
I don't think self checkout is a sign of the coming Dark Singularity, it is merely tangential to it.
posted by CynicalKnight at 5:37 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by CynicalKnight at 5:37 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
those of us who value minimising human interaction and like to get boring things done as fast as possible
are paying less attention to honing the skills required for ageing with equanimity than this particular old fart thinks they'd be well advised to.
posted by flabdablet at 5:43 AM on November 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
are paying less attention to honing the skills required for ageing with equanimity than this particular old fart thinks they'd be well advised to.
posted by flabdablet at 5:43 AM on November 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
I'll use whatever looks to be faster, but prefer staffed lines by a large margin. If there are only two staffed lanes open, each with a long line, but the self-checkout is flowing quickly, I'll use that. But at the nearby grocery store (very middle of the road, not fancy but also not run-down) they tend to have lots of staffed lanes open and it is almost always faster to get in line, even if you are behind the sweet older lady who still pays with a check.
My experience with self-checkout has always been much like my experience in airport security lines. I’m anxious enough about being “that guy” that I always walk into the situation knowing what I need to do and being prepared well ahead of time to get it done and get out, and I always have this sense that a solid 80% of the people around me are just acting like they’ve never even heard of airports before that day. I’m standing there with my shoes off, my laptop and liquids out, just waiting to grab a bin and go, while people desperately try to chug a whole liter of Fiji water in one go, begin unbuttoning their winter coats and unlacing their eighteen-hole Docs, then realize they didn’t wear socks and the floor is gross, pick that moment to start getting philosophical about what does or does not count as a liquid, suddenly remember they have small children that need all the same attention and so forth.
If you fly even once or twice a year, it is completely worth it to go through the process of qualifying for Pre-check (the expedited security line where you keep your shoes on). I had a data entry error recently (i.e., I typed my number in wrong) and didn't get Pre-check for a couple of flights until it all got sorted out. It's way slower and more stressful in the regular line.
All of that to say: if there was a Pre-check-like option at the grocery store where you pay a small amount to have an expedited experience, I would totally sign up.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:48 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
My experience with self-checkout has always been much like my experience in airport security lines. I’m anxious enough about being “that guy” that I always walk into the situation knowing what I need to do and being prepared well ahead of time to get it done and get out, and I always have this sense that a solid 80% of the people around me are just acting like they’ve never even heard of airports before that day. I’m standing there with my shoes off, my laptop and liquids out, just waiting to grab a bin and go, while people desperately try to chug a whole liter of Fiji water in one go, begin unbuttoning their winter coats and unlacing their eighteen-hole Docs, then realize they didn’t wear socks and the floor is gross, pick that moment to start getting philosophical about what does or does not count as a liquid, suddenly remember they have small children that need all the same attention and so forth.
If you fly even once or twice a year, it is completely worth it to go through the process of qualifying for Pre-check (the expedited security line where you keep your shoes on). I had a data entry error recently (i.e., I typed my number in wrong) and didn't get Pre-check for a couple of flights until it all got sorted out. It's way slower and more stressful in the regular line.
All of that to say: if there was a Pre-check-like option at the grocery store where you pay a small amount to have an expedited experience, I would totally sign up.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:48 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would argue that wages can only go up when productivity goes up...
Well, wages for the executives, sure. Productivity has rarely resulted in meaningful increases in wages for the workers. Increases in productivity are quite often used as reasons to cut staff.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:51 AM on November 19, 2023 [25 favorites]
Well, wages for the executives, sure. Productivity has rarely resulted in meaningful increases in wages for the workers. Increases in productivity are quite often used as reasons to cut staff.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:51 AM on November 19, 2023 [25 favorites]
Muriel: I saw it all going wrong when it began in the supermarkets, when they replaced all the women on the till with those automated checkouts.
Rosie: No, that's not our fault, I hate those things. I always have.
Fran: Can't stand them.
Muriel: Yes. But You didn't do anything. did you? 20 years ago when they first popped up, did you walk out? Did you write letters of complaint? Did you shop elsewhere? No! You huffed and you puffed and you put up with it. And now all of those women are gone and we let it happen. And I think we do like them, those checkouts. We want them. Because it means that we can stroll through, pick up our shopping, and we don't have to look that woman in the eye. The woman who's paid less than us. She's gone. We got rid of her. Sacked. Well done. So yes, it's our fault. This is the world we built. Congratulations! Cheers all!
-- Russel T Davies, YEARS AND YEARS
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:52 AM on November 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
Rosie: No, that's not our fault, I hate those things. I always have.
Fran: Can't stand them.
Muriel: Yes. But You didn't do anything. did you? 20 years ago when they first popped up, did you walk out? Did you write letters of complaint? Did you shop elsewhere? No! You huffed and you puffed and you put up with it. And now all of those women are gone and we let it happen. And I think we do like them, those checkouts. We want them. Because it means that we can stroll through, pick up our shopping, and we don't have to look that woman in the eye. The woman who's paid less than us. She's gone. We got rid of her. Sacked. Well done. So yes, it's our fault. This is the world we built. Congratulations! Cheers all!
-- Russel T Davies, YEARS AND YEARS
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:52 AM on November 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
Aldi probably makes all of their money on that home goods aisle.
Love self checkout. It's so much faster. But yeah, if something doesn't ring up, it's free. I do not weep for Target.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:56 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Love self checkout. It's so much faster. But yeah, if something doesn't ring up, it's free. I do not weep for Target.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:56 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Folks complaining about self-checkout as them being forced to do unpaid labor for the store yet not also viewing and vocally objecting to the going around and collecting your items from the shelves similarly is certainly some kind of thing. And makes me wonder what sort of household chore accounting system they’ve set up for paying themselves for their labor. It all seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding of the Wages for Housework idea.
posted by eviemath at 5:58 AM on November 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 5:58 AM on November 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
are paying less attention to honing the skills required for ageing with equanimity than this particular old fart thinks they'd be well advised to
Noted.
To be fair, I prefer to exercise my capacity for sociability in more convivial environments than the supermarket. I am playing up my antisocial tendencies and impatience somewhat, my real issue is that supermarkets aren't particularly nice places to hang about in, and I'm lucky enough to have lots of other stuff I'd much rather be doing.
When people are so lonely that they look forward to grocery shopping and feel the lack of an interaction with the person who used to scan their barcodes, that perhaps indicates something more fundamental wrong with society than just a shift to automated payment processing...
posted by tomsk at 6:00 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
Noted.
To be fair, I prefer to exercise my capacity for sociability in more convivial environments than the supermarket. I am playing up my antisocial tendencies and impatience somewhat, my real issue is that supermarkets aren't particularly nice places to hang about in, and I'm lucky enough to have lots of other stuff I'd much rather be doing.
When people are so lonely that they look forward to grocery shopping and feel the lack of an interaction with the person who used to scan their barcodes, that perhaps indicates something more fundamental wrong with society than just a shift to automated payment processing...
posted by tomsk at 6:00 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
I’m shocked at how few people in here are fessing up to entering their organic produce as conventional at the self checkout.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 6:05 AM on November 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 6:05 AM on November 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
if something doesn't ring up, it's free
soundtrack for the thread
posted by flabdablet at 6:05 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
soundtrack for the thread
posted by flabdablet at 6:05 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Because it means that we can stroll through, pick up our shopping, and we don't have to look that woman in the eye. The woman who's paid less than us.
They earn more than me, I still don't want to talk to them or worse, look them in the eye. Some of us just aren't social, it isn't always classism.
posted by Dysk at 6:18 AM on November 19, 2023 [18 favorites]
They earn more than me, I still don't want to talk to them or worse, look them in the eye. Some of us just aren't social, it isn't always classism.
posted by Dysk at 6:18 AM on November 19, 2023 [18 favorites]
Never had a problem with self-checkout, except for seeing the machines clogged up with people trying to ring up an entire cart's worth of stuff. Which is impossible at Target since the little landing/bagging zone is 1' square and you need to tetris all of your stuff on the scale to make it work.
Target must be aware of this as well because they're starting to change the self-check to 10 items or less. Huzzah.
My larger problem with Target is that they now restock the shelves during business hours. So you're swerving around large carts full of boxes, on top of other employees fulfilling mobile orders alongside you.
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:19 AM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Target must be aware of this as well because they're starting to change the self-check to 10 items or less. Huzzah.
My larger problem with Target is that they now restock the shelves during business hours. So you're swerving around large carts full of boxes, on top of other employees fulfilling mobile orders alongside you.
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:19 AM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
If you make me use self checkout, I'm stealing something. If you've set it up so that human cashiers are so backed up that it's going to cost me real money to stand in line, I'm walking out the store with some free shit. Suck it, capitalism.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:20 AM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:20 AM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
If someone came over to my house and then had to rearrange some stuff on a table and put them into a bag before I let them leave my home I would supply them a fucking chair.
Self-checkout creates an incarceration zone if your self-check out skills aren't fast enough for store policy, too.
posted by MonsieurPEB at 6:22 AM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Self-checkout creates an incarceration zone if your self-check out skills aren't fast enough for store policy, too.
posted by MonsieurPEB at 6:22 AM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
If the interface for the registers was intelligible and infallible, it would be one thing -- but the software is total trash.
My local physical therapist has an iPad on a post in front of the reception desk where I have to check in my daughter every time. The GUI is soooo bad, and it makes me frustrated. The receptionist just sits and watches me stew; I have more than once asked her why the least-qualified person in the room is operating the check-in software, as a line forms behind me.
Any cashier with a week of experience is better at their tool than I am. The company should recognize this, and want to improve throughout.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:25 AM on November 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
My local physical therapist has an iPad on a post in front of the reception desk where I have to check in my daughter every time. The GUI is soooo bad, and it makes me frustrated. The receptionist just sits and watches me stew; I have more than once asked her why the least-qualified person in the room is operating the check-in software, as a line forms behind me.
Any cashier with a week of experience is better at their tool than I am. The company should recognize this, and want to improve throughout.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:25 AM on November 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
Suck it, capitalism.
You do realize that the cost is being passed on to your fellow citizens, no?
posted by BWA at 6:25 AM on November 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
You do realize that the cost is being passed on to your fellow citizens, no?
posted by BWA at 6:25 AM on November 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
I like self checkout directly in proportion to how much the machine trusts me to do the job as quickly and competently as a store clerk. Let me whip the items across the scanner into the weigh tray as fast as I can without voice prompts and I am a happy camper. On the other hand if the machine is going to try to baby and double-check me every step of the way I will set fire to the entire building and stride away as it explodes behind me.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:25 AM on November 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:25 AM on November 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
The corollary to fewer cashiers, at the Target stores near me, is that any remaining staff are frantically rushing around to fill Internet orders.
The aisles are full of their big carts, they can't answer any questions, and they zoooom around.
Making this worse, we are guessing that they also cut the overnight stock crew, because the aisles are also full of shrink-wrapped pallets of goods to be shelved.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:28 AM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
The aisles are full of their big carts, they can't answer any questions, and they zoooom around.
Making this worse, we are guessing that they also cut the overnight stock crew, because the aisles are also full of shrink-wrapped pallets of goods to be shelved.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:28 AM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I would prefer self-check-out if they actually staffed the stores adequately - both the human-staffed check-out lines for the people who need them or prefer them, and the troubleshooters for when your bar code doesn't scan right or when you're buying alcohol.
(Or mojito mix, which the self-checkout machine gave me a "must show ID" error for even though it didn't have any alcohol in it!)
I am good at using self-check, and I hardly ever buy alcohol, but I am still thoroughly tired of standing at a self-check machine waiting for somebody to scan their code so they can fix whatever I did wrong. And at my local Pick-n-Save, there's frequently an entire grocery store aisle filled with people waiting in line for the self-check.
(I shoplifted this year, for the first time ever, when I got through the line, realized I had forgotten to scan two jalapeños, and decided that under no circumstances was I going to wait in line for another twenty minutes just to pay fifteen cents for my jalapeños).
posted by Jeanne at 6:28 AM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
(Or mojito mix, which the self-checkout machine gave me a "must show ID" error for even though it didn't have any alcohol in it!)
I am good at using self-check, and I hardly ever buy alcohol, but I am still thoroughly tired of standing at a self-check machine waiting for somebody to scan their code so they can fix whatever I did wrong. And at my local Pick-n-Save, there's frequently an entire grocery store aisle filled with people waiting in line for the self-check.
(I shoplifted this year, for the first time ever, when I got through the line, realized I had forgotten to scan two jalapeños, and decided that under no circumstances was I going to wait in line for another twenty minutes just to pay fifteen cents for my jalapeños).
posted by Jeanne at 6:28 AM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
Best self checkout: IKEA. Absolutely perfect. I get a hand-held scanner, no weigh tray, and can go as fast as I want. Fucking awesome.
Next best: Dollarama. Weigh tray, almost no voice prompts.
Loblaws is not horrible for the self-checkout unless you have produce.
Everywhere else, I get a clerk.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:28 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Next best: Dollarama. Weigh tray, almost no voice prompts.
Loblaws is not horrible for the self-checkout unless you have produce.
Everywhere else, I get a clerk.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:28 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Suck it, capitalism.
You do realize that the cost is being passed on to your fellow citizens, no?
Mildly put and intended, corporations are gonna raise prices regardless of whether it's actually all because of some store merchandise loss. There's no way out of this sick game, there is no, if we treat the corporation fairly, they'll treat us fairly.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:32 AM on November 19, 2023 [21 favorites]
You do realize that the cost is being passed on to your fellow citizens, no?
Mildly put and intended, corporations are gonna raise prices regardless of whether it's actually all because of some store merchandise loss. There's no way out of this sick game, there is no, if we treat the corporation fairly, they'll treat us fairly.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:32 AM on November 19, 2023 [21 favorites]
Note that the recent "shoplifting epidemic" has proven to be nearly entirely a bunch of lies by big corporations to justify shitty service, store closure, etc. They're just gouging us as we get more vulnerable - raise prices for no reason and blame supply chains, cut stores to cut costs and blame shoplifting. Unless you're stealing from Mom and Pop's Local One-Location Emporium, the real issue with costs is the greed of the very top people at the corporation.
posted by Frowner at 6:37 AM on November 19, 2023 [44 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 6:37 AM on November 19, 2023 [44 favorites]
I love self checkout because most of the time I don't want to talk to anyone.
posted by freakazoid at 6:37 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by freakazoid at 6:37 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
Whenever there's an FPP about shoplifting hurting retail, everybody's all Walgreens is LYING and complaining that the razors are all locked up for no reason, but apparently Metafilter is a den of thieves when it comes to the self-checkout? (dang it, on preview frowner pre-emptively dismantled my joke.)
posted by mittens at 6:37 AM on November 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by mittens at 6:37 AM on November 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
I thought it was funny.
posted by Frowner at 6:39 AM on November 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 6:39 AM on November 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
In the supermarkets that do it (Tesco, in the UK), I use the alternate form, which is scan-as-you-shop.
In the Krogers in Cincinnati, we had a similar thing called "Scan-Bag-Go." I loved it. While it had a lot of the features of self-checkout, it felt easier. No pressure knowing there were folks waiting for your kiosk. You could delete items a lot better. We could bag-as-we-go. It was what we thought we'd get with self-checkout.
It seemed to have disappeared after the pandemic.
posted by MrGuilt at 6:44 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
In the Krogers in Cincinnati, we had a similar thing called "Scan-Bag-Go." I loved it. While it had a lot of the features of self-checkout, it felt easier. No pressure knowing there were folks waiting for your kiosk. You could delete items a lot better. We could bag-as-we-go. It was what we thought we'd get with self-checkout.
It seemed to have disappeared after the pandemic.
posted by MrGuilt at 6:44 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Usually hate self-checkout in principle but at our neighborhood small grocery store, I use it guilt-free. They don’t have up the usual “YOU ARE ON CAMERA” Big Brother warnings, the kiosk doesn’t try to weigh whatever I put in the bagging area, and even the produce selection menu works fairly quickly.
The best part though was that I knew a kid who worked there as a cashier. I asked him outside of work “how many jobs were cut when these went in?” And he answered, “none, we just don’t have to stand by the registers as much now” so yeah that was nice to hear. If everyone did it this way I’d not have an issue with self-checkout. But pretty much no one uses it as anything other than an excuse to cut jobs, keep prices the same or higher, and pass the profits on to the shareholders.
posted by caution live frogs at 6:44 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
The best part though was that I knew a kid who worked there as a cashier. I asked him outside of work “how many jobs were cut when these went in?” And he answered, “none, we just don’t have to stand by the registers as much now” so yeah that was nice to hear. If everyone did it this way I’d not have an issue with self-checkout. But pretty much no one uses it as anything other than an excuse to cut jobs, keep prices the same or higher, and pass the profits on to the shareholders.
posted by caution live frogs at 6:44 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
Unskilled work? Pfft.
For a casual definition of 'skilled,' sure, anyone whose job takes some learning to do could qualify. But it's not, like, more respectful to call the checker at the grocery store 'skilled labor,' because there is a specific definition for what is meant by that phrase:
posted by LooseFilter at 6:46 AM on November 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
For a casual definition of 'skilled,' sure, anyone whose job takes some learning to do could qualify. But it's not, like, more respectful to call the checker at the grocery store 'skilled labor,' because there is a specific definition for what is meant by that phrase:
A skilled worker is any worker who has special skill, training, knowledge which they can then apply to their work. A skilled worker may have learned their skills through work experience, on-the-job training, an apprenticeship program or formal education. These skills often lead to better outcomes economically. The definition of a skilled worker has seen change throughout the 20th century, largely due to the industrial impact of the Great Depression and World War II. Further changes in globalisation have seen this definition shift further in Western countries, with many jobs moving from manufacturing based sectors to more advanced technical and service based roles. Examples of formal educated skilled labor include engineers, scientists, doctors and teachers, while examples of informal educated workers include crane operators, CDL truck drivers, machinists, drafters, plumbers, craftsmen, cooks and bookkeepers.I'm all about dignity in work and respecting all jobs, but you can't just call people checking groceries at the store 'skilled labor' if they're good at it, those jobs are literally defined as 'unskilled labor' in market terms, so using the term otherwise only obfuscates conversation about labor conditions or job quality or compensation or etc. (I.e., if any job that someone gets good at doing can be described as skilled labor, then we lose a useful term for describing the vocational shape of our capitalistic society. It's not disrespectful to say that grocery store employees are unskilled labor, it's simply a description of the amount of training, apprenticeship, certification, etc., that is involved in being able to do that work.)
posted by LooseFilter at 6:46 AM on November 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
I love self checkout. I worked as a checker for a long time and when I was a pseudo-manager, the self checkout was a coveted assignment. Self checkout SHOULD still be staffed, though many stores basically do not staff them which is very irritating given those stores also often have a lot of pricing errors. If you don’t like them, don’t use them, and a staffed regular checkout should always be available without a wild line. But many people - both customers and employees - do like them, and refusing to use them is not the pro-social slam dunk some people think it is.
posted by obfuscation at 6:52 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by obfuscation at 6:52 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
This seems to be largely gripeland, and when in Rome....
At the moment I try to use staffed checkouts so as to justify the checker's jobs. The rapidity with which Walmart (its the US South and they're open latest, don't judge me) went from having multiple checkers every night to repurposing most of their lanes as self-checkout caught me off guard, and now I'm fighting against it. Now they usually only have one staffer doing checkout, if any. I agree that we should just pay a living wage and abolish these jobs, but we have a full half of the country thinking that's just enabling slackers, so while people still need money to survive, I'm trying to do what I can to push towards employing more people, meaning at least checking if there's an actual person running one of their few remaining lanes, and being willing to late in line a bit if it seems feasible.
I say "trying to do what I can," but of course I mean in the bounds of the law. A rash of shoplifting, sorry, "shrinkage," might cause them to reevaluate this policy.
Several years ago, even before the pandemic, our local Walmart made an excuse to stop being 24-hour, which I found a huge loss of convenience (I was one of those people who'd go there after 2 AM and jokes about those kinds of folk who would go there super late have always fallen flat with me [stares steadily]). I heard from a friend that they did it because someone had walked out the store with all their display laptops. He claimed that he had heard it supposedly from the people who pulled it off. Of course, it's the kind of claim that could never be proven, it could have been thwarted by just having decent security or by having a better tether for the machines to their damn demo tables, and it wasn't long after that Walmart stopped being open 24 hours across the country. But now they don't even have checkers sometimes! It's really galling to me, but then, it's Walmart-town Jake.
(Say what you want about Walmart and you'll probably be right, but they do have a pretty awesome returns policy.)
posted by JHarris at 6:58 AM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
At the moment I try to use staffed checkouts so as to justify the checker's jobs. The rapidity with which Walmart (its the US South and they're open latest, don't judge me) went from having multiple checkers every night to repurposing most of their lanes as self-checkout caught me off guard, and now I'm fighting against it. Now they usually only have one staffer doing checkout, if any. I agree that we should just pay a living wage and abolish these jobs, but we have a full half of the country thinking that's just enabling slackers, so while people still need money to survive, I'm trying to do what I can to push towards employing more people, meaning at least checking if there's an actual person running one of their few remaining lanes, and being willing to late in line a bit if it seems feasible.
I say "trying to do what I can," but of course I mean in the bounds of the law. A rash of shoplifting, sorry, "shrinkage," might cause them to reevaluate this policy.
Several years ago, even before the pandemic, our local Walmart made an excuse to stop being 24-hour, which I found a huge loss of convenience (I was one of those people who'd go there after 2 AM and jokes about those kinds of folk who would go there super late have always fallen flat with me [stares steadily]). I heard from a friend that they did it because someone had walked out the store with all their display laptops. He claimed that he had heard it supposedly from the people who pulled it off. Of course, it's the kind of claim that could never be proven, it could have been thwarted by just having decent security or by having a better tether for the machines to their damn demo tables, and it wasn't long after that Walmart stopped being open 24 hours across the country. But now they don't even have checkers sometimes! It's really galling to me, but then, it's Walmart-town Jake.
(Say what you want about Walmart and you'll probably be right, but they do have a pretty awesome returns policy.)
posted by JHarris at 6:58 AM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Several years ago, even before the pandemic, our local Walmart made an excuse to stop being 24-hour, which I found a huge loss of convenience (I was one of those people who'd go there after 2 AM and jokes about those kinds of folk who would go there super late have always fallen flat with me [stares steadily]).
Now I don't live in a super large city, but the pandemic put paid to any 24 hour groceries and pharmacies here in town. And when people complain about it , the snotty responses put me off too. Listen, I used to be a shift worker, and as such, those folks keep weird hours. I can totally understand the frustration of having places that are open 24 hours go away because honestly, those shopping hours might be the best you can do if you need to sleep for most of the day before going back in. Not everyone has a 9-5 straight job, but it's amazing how many people either don't care or look down on them for having different working hours.
posted by Kitteh at 7:05 AM on November 19, 2023 [18 favorites]
Now I don't live in a super large city, but the pandemic put paid to any 24 hour groceries and pharmacies here in town. And when people complain about it , the snotty responses put me off too. Listen, I used to be a shift worker, and as such, those folks keep weird hours. I can totally understand the frustration of having places that are open 24 hours go away because honestly, those shopping hours might be the best you can do if you need to sleep for most of the day before going back in. Not everyone has a 9-5 straight job, but it's amazing how many people either don't care or look down on them for having different working hours.
posted by Kitteh at 7:05 AM on November 19, 2023 [18 favorites]
A skilled worker may have learned their skills through work experience, on-the-job training, an apprenticeship program or formal education. These skills often lead to better outcomes economically.
I'd like anyone in this thread to sit down in my local Lidl or Aldi and try to be a tenth as fast as those people who know every single produce and bakery code by heart, to the point they never use the item picker. I guess it helps that checkout-bagging really doesn't exist in continental Europe. Indeed, my local has 12 self-checkouts and usually a cashier or two open - and if the lines are the same length, I'm getting in the staffed one because I'll be out the door that much faster. I guess it helps that Lidl pays people a living wage with benefits and advancement opportunities.
Uniqlo is definitely the best self checkout experience, but Rossmann (I guess it's a drugstore except no pharmacy in US terms) isn't bad either - because both shops used the introduction of self checkouts to free up staff to roam the aisles and actually help people. As long as I'm buying a few things that have easily located barcodes, I can deal with poking the touchscreen a bit.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 7:12 AM on November 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'd like anyone in this thread to sit down in my local Lidl or Aldi and try to be a tenth as fast as those people who know every single produce and bakery code by heart, to the point they never use the item picker. I guess it helps that checkout-bagging really doesn't exist in continental Europe. Indeed, my local has 12 self-checkouts and usually a cashier or two open - and if the lines are the same length, I'm getting in the staffed one because I'll be out the door that much faster. I guess it helps that Lidl pays people a living wage with benefits and advancement opportunities.
Uniqlo is definitely the best self checkout experience, but Rossmann (I guess it's a drugstore except no pharmacy in US terms) isn't bad either - because both shops used the introduction of self checkouts to free up staff to roam the aisles and actually help people. As long as I'm buying a few things that have easily located barcodes, I can deal with poking the touchscreen a bit.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 7:12 AM on November 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
The fact that I get mildly annoyed every time I scan the first item and the kiosk yells "please place all items in the bagging area!" at the same time I have already put my first item in the bagging area (which if I'm quick enough actually interrupts the kiosk, so it only has time to say "please place..."), well I guess it says something about my psychological state.
Suffice it to say this is always a very PC LOAD LETTER moment and it's a good thing they don't sell baseball bats at a grocery store.
posted by swift at 7:12 AM on November 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
Suffice it to say this is always a very PC LOAD LETTER moment and it's a good thing they don't sell baseball bats at a grocery store.
posted by swift at 7:12 AM on November 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
pass the profits on to the shareholders
I own a small parcel of Coles shares, and they're worth about as much now as they were in 2020.
The C-suite, naturally, has been doing very well over the same period.
posted by flabdablet at 7:23 AM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I own a small parcel of Coles shares, and they're worth about as much now as they were in 2020.
The C-suite, naturally, has been doing very well over the same period.
posted by flabdablet at 7:23 AM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I like self check out. It's faster, I don't have to make small talk, I can just scan my shit, pay, and leave without waiting. And there's NEVER some jackass ahead of me who thinks that paying with a fucking check is acceptable in 2023, or who gets finished then wants cigarettes, or whatever.
I hate that self check out has been used as an excuse by the capitalist assholes to pad the executive yacht fund by cutting staffing and generally making the stores worse.
posted by sotonohito at 7:29 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
I hate that self check out has been used as an excuse by the capitalist assholes to pad the executive yacht fund by cutting staffing and generally making the stores worse.
posted by sotonohito at 7:29 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
No one ever bags my groceries the way I prefer, so I'd rather whichever option lets me bag my groceries in peace or without the extreme pressure of someone behind you. In this, Aldi is king. Scan 'em into a cart and go load your bags or car however you like. Here is a loooong counter and bunch of boxes if you'd like. Or if you're doing it yourself, my store has tons of self checkouts and a large-ish non-weighing bagging area, so it's minimally annoying.
When I walked everywhere, I would schlep down to the grocery store with a backpack and a couple of giant totes and if I ended up with someone trying to bag my groceries I just had to repack them afterwards because I know where to put the heaviest thing at the bottom of the backpack to make it easier to trudge up a hill, but I can't expect people who have been trained to double bag a single gallon of milk in paper and plastic to get it. And now I mostly don't want my produce squished by something heavy or sharp edged, which sounds simple but is apparently very very tricky. I also have a favorite bag for eggs because it fits 3 cartons of eggs perfectly, but asking people to use a specific bag for specific items always feels like asking too much from someone paid a shit wage in a shit job.
So far using self checkout with my kiddo has been working well. We go like 3 times slower than I do alone, but that's toddler time. She scans the items and I hand her things from the cart and bag and scan anything especially delicate. And I remind myself to appreciate that my kid is helping with groceries right now, since I'm sure the novelty won't last. I used to give her my shopping list to draw on while I checked out with a cashier, but that novelty has worn off.
posted by carrioncomfort at 7:32 AM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
When I walked everywhere, I would schlep down to the grocery store with a backpack and a couple of giant totes and if I ended up with someone trying to bag my groceries I just had to repack them afterwards because I know where to put the heaviest thing at the bottom of the backpack to make it easier to trudge up a hill, but I can't expect people who have been trained to double bag a single gallon of milk in paper and plastic to get it. And now I mostly don't want my produce squished by something heavy or sharp edged, which sounds simple but is apparently very very tricky. I also have a favorite bag for eggs because it fits 3 cartons of eggs perfectly, but asking people to use a specific bag for specific items always feels like asking too much from someone paid a shit wage in a shit job.
So far using self checkout with my kiddo has been working well. We go like 3 times slower than I do alone, but that's toddler time. She scans the items and I hand her things from the cart and bag and scan anything especially delicate. And I remind myself to appreciate that my kid is helping with groceries right now, since I'm sure the novelty won't last. I used to give her my shopping list to draw on while I checked out with a cashier, but that novelty has worn off.
posted by carrioncomfort at 7:32 AM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
I work for a big retailer in the UK who uses self-checkouts extensively. They’re a net gain for customers and for the businesses. A colleague told me that the average queue time has dropped by 80%. I have personally spoken to several people (and read in research) that self-checkout is greatly appreciated by our neurodiverse customers, who enjoy being able to check out at their own pace, without any suggestion of social interaction.
That said, there’s loads of room for improvement. The hardware is generally ok - it’s ultimately a scale and a barcode scanner. But the software is far from perfect. There are huge UX gains to be made here IMO.
posted by Magnakai at 7:41 AM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
That said, there’s loads of room for improvement. The hardware is generally ok - it’s ultimately a scale and a barcode scanner. But the software is far from perfect. There are huge UX gains to be made here IMO.
posted by Magnakai at 7:41 AM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I was in the grocery store yesterday with about 30 items. The self checkout had a line of 15 people. The two staffed checkout lines were empty as usual (though maybe that's because I go at odd times). I still got to bag my own groceries as there was no one there to do it. The cashier line rules in my book!
posted by pangolin party at 7:41 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by pangolin party at 7:41 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
you can't just call people checking groceries at the store 'skilled labor' if they're good at it
Sure I can. And if the giant brains at head office actually had a clue, they'd call her that as well.
posted by flabdablet at 7:42 AM on November 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
Sure I can. And if the giant brains at head office actually had a clue, they'd call her that as well.
posted by flabdablet at 7:42 AM on November 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
It is skilled labor.
posted by flamk at 8:01 AM on November 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by flamk at 8:01 AM on November 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
A skilled worker may have learned their skills through work experience, on-the-job training, an apprenticeship program or formal education. These skills often lead to better outcomes economically... Examples of formal educated skilled labor include engineers, scientists, doctors and teachers, while examples of informal educated workers include crane operators, CDL truck drivers, machinists, drafters, plumbers, craftsmen, cooks and bookkeepers.
But aren’t people saying they know cashiers with skills learned through work experience and perhaps on-the-job training that let them work faster, more accurately, and with better results for customers?
It feels like a difference of degree, which does make me question the categorization. Also, why is “CDL truck drivers” in the informal category? They by definition have to get formal training and pass an exam to get a license. So do plumbers in my US state, for that matter.
posted by smelendez at 8:11 AM on November 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
But aren’t people saying they know cashiers with skills learned through work experience and perhaps on-the-job training that let them work faster, more accurately, and with better results for customers?
It feels like a difference of degree, which does make me question the categorization. Also, why is “CDL truck drivers” in the informal category? They by definition have to get formal training and pass an exam to get a license. So do plumbers in my US state, for that matter.
posted by smelendez at 8:11 AM on November 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
For those on the “scanning groceries is skilled labor” position, can you tell me what is not skilled labor?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:15 AM on November 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:15 AM on November 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
So do plumbers in my US state, for that matter.
Formal training for plumbers is like 3 hours a decade sitting in a room to fulfill some requirement. 99.99999999% training is on the job, unless you do specialty gas work, like nitrous for dental offices.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:18 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Formal training for plumbers is like 3 hours a decade sitting in a room to fulfill some requirement. 99.99999999% training is on the job, unless you do specialty gas work, like nitrous for dental offices.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:18 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is one of the strangest sites I've seen in some time. I have no idea how these people got themselves wedged into their scanners, or why.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 8:19 AM on November 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 8:19 AM on November 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
Obviously, as qua twitter, all labor is skilled labor.
This seems like a language problem and not a real problem. We want to be able to say two (eta 2.5) different things:
1. Virtually all forms of work involve some skill and intelligence and can be enormously improved when a focused person works out how to do them best.
1.5. We do not want people to be able to say "this is an unskilled job so it's fine to pay the obviously inferior people who do it tiny wages and kick them around a lot", so we want to use language that foregrounds skill.
2. There are different labor markets for people who have different formal qualifications, and it appears to make some kind of reporting sense to lump doctors, accountants and electricians together and then lump check-out clerks, waiters and cleaners together.
But obviously only a loon would say that being a waiter of all things is unskilled labor. Holy crap, I would argue that it is more skilled than my first junior secretary job by a long chalk.
So the problem seems to be that we need either to accept different rhetorics in different situations or develop new words.
posted by Frowner at 8:23 AM on November 19, 2023 [26 favorites]
This seems like a language problem and not a real problem. We want to be able to say two (eta 2.5) different things:
1. Virtually all forms of work involve some skill and intelligence and can be enormously improved when a focused person works out how to do them best.
1.5. We do not want people to be able to say "this is an unskilled job so it's fine to pay the obviously inferior people who do it tiny wages and kick them around a lot", so we want to use language that foregrounds skill.
2. There are different labor markets for people who have different formal qualifications, and it appears to make some kind of reporting sense to lump doctors, accountants and electricians together and then lump check-out clerks, waiters and cleaners together.
But obviously only a loon would say that being a waiter of all things is unskilled labor. Holy crap, I would argue that it is more skilled than my first junior secretary job by a long chalk.
So the problem seems to be that we need either to accept different rhetorics in different situations or develop new words.
posted by Frowner at 8:23 AM on November 19, 2023 [26 favorites]
What a wide range of reactions in the comments. Retail execs should be reading these; this is high-grade feedback. ( I briefly worked for a retail technology company)
I hate lineups, so my #1 criterion is speed: what will get me out the quickest. It seems the self-checkout terminals are getting better, slowly.
I'm surprised by the number of folks who prefer self-checkout because they want to avoid the human interaction of a cashier. I'm not Mr Social, but my wife and some good friends are training me to be more considerate. So it's becoming a goal to make my cashier at least smile. Saying "How are you?" or "Have a nice day" and meaning it, goes a long way. Besides I'm now a senior; it's expected. Next stop - a clasp coin purse and paying with dimes, one every 5 seconds. With a real moth in there.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:28 AM on November 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
I hate lineups, so my #1 criterion is speed: what will get me out the quickest. It seems the self-checkout terminals are getting better, slowly.
I'm surprised by the number of folks who prefer self-checkout because they want to avoid the human interaction of a cashier. I'm not Mr Social, but my wife and some good friends are training me to be more considerate. So it's becoming a goal to make my cashier at least smile. Saying "How are you?" or "Have a nice day" and meaning it, goes a long way. Besides I'm now a senior; it's expected. Next stop - a clasp coin purse and paying with dimes, one every 5 seconds. With a real moth in there.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:28 AM on November 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
Re skilled/unskilled: to me an unskilled job is one that the average person could start doing same day with just some mentoring and supervision, whereas a skilled job requires prior education and an understanding of a non-trivial amount of rules and regulations in order to perform their role safely. Eg - electrician, gas-fitter.
That being said, the best waiters or experienced cashiers are highly skilled, no question.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:38 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
That being said, the best waiters or experienced cashiers are highly skilled, no question.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:38 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Retail execs should be reading these; this is high-grade feedback.
Grocery execs are interesting because it wasn’t that long ago that they were the guys who started the store and turned it into a chain, often after working for a while at a rival. And now they’re either the children of those guys or just people with MBAs, which has to make a big difference in terms of understanding the labor side?
I say “guys” repeatedly because it seems to have overwhelmingly been men, even at a time where grocery shopping was coded female, which I’m sure led to its own issues.
posted by smelendez at 8:39 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Grocery execs are interesting because it wasn’t that long ago that they were the guys who started the store and turned it into a chain, often after working for a while at a rival. And now they’re either the children of those guys or just people with MBAs, which has to make a big difference in terms of understanding the labor side?
I say “guys” repeatedly because it seems to have overwhelmingly been men, even at a time where grocery shopping was coded female, which I’m sure led to its own issues.
posted by smelendez at 8:39 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
In California, you can’t buy alcohol at self-checkout. So what’s the point?
posted by Ideefixe at 8:40 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Ideefixe at 8:40 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Side note: Where I live, there are formal qualifications for all the trades. One obtains them through community college programs. Folks of course can informally hire someone who doesn’t have those qualifications, but any more formal or regulated setting will generally require that tradespeople hired have the formal qualifications (eg. that’s a requirement for my condo board when hiring tradespeople to do repairs or capital projects).
One place I used to live, one of the major grocery store chains had a training program for their checkout baggers. Based on recent experiences when I’ve been back visiting, I think perhaps they no longer do. (The difference in bagging quality is very obvious to me.)
Most of the places I’ve lived have had more labor-intensive forms of local agriculture (vegetables and fruits as opposed to grain crops). No formal training is required to work as a picker or field hand, and it is the sort of thing that folks do as seasonal labor - in some cases just as young folks, in other cases longer term as part of a cobbling together of various income sources. Agricultural labor is paid by piece rate, not hourly, with the rates set such that someone who doesn’t have experience (informally developed skill) generally makes far, far less than minimum wage. Developing the skill required to make over minimum wage takes several years’ experience, and is thus more time consuming and harder to acquire than many skills for which there are formal certifications.
My point here is that what counts as skilled labor is both highly arbitrary and varies quite a bit by region, legal jurisdiction, or even employer.
posted by eviemath at 8:45 AM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
One place I used to live, one of the major grocery store chains had a training program for their checkout baggers. Based on recent experiences when I’ve been back visiting, I think perhaps they no longer do. (The difference in bagging quality is very obvious to me.)
Most of the places I’ve lived have had more labor-intensive forms of local agriculture (vegetables and fruits as opposed to grain crops). No formal training is required to work as a picker or field hand, and it is the sort of thing that folks do as seasonal labor - in some cases just as young folks, in other cases longer term as part of a cobbling together of various income sources. Agricultural labor is paid by piece rate, not hourly, with the rates set such that someone who doesn’t have experience (informally developed skill) generally makes far, far less than minimum wage. Developing the skill required to make over minimum wage takes several years’ experience, and is thus more time consuming and harder to acquire than many skills for which there are formal certifications.
My point here is that what counts as skilled labor is both highly arbitrary and varies quite a bit by region, legal jurisdiction, or even employer.
posted by eviemath at 8:45 AM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I really just want to be able to pack my groceries in my bags the way I want without being rushed, and I'm happy to see I'm not alone in that here. There's only one store I frequent where it's likely a store employee will bag my groceries. Otherwise, it's just the cashier scanning items faster than I can bag, and then I feel like I'm wasting everyone's time trying to bag all my stuff after the cashier is done scanning, which leads to me getting stressed. Self-checkout seems like the best option to suit my needs since Wegmans eliminated the "scan-by-phone as you go" option.
posted by mollweide at 8:45 AM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mollweide at 8:45 AM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
(^ what counts as formal skilled labor, that is.)
posted by eviemath at 8:46 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 8:46 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I hate grocery shopping. Hate it. Want it done in the most efficient way possible. I have friends who spend hours a week just...grocery shopping. I might spend about an hour a month.
Self checkout is the greatest thing, for me, since sliced bread.
Get me in. Get me out. Get me away from these people squeezing the tomatoes.
posted by pthomas745 at 8:56 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Self checkout is the greatest thing, for me, since sliced bread.
Get me in. Get me out. Get me away from these people squeezing the tomatoes.
posted by pthomas745 at 8:56 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
It surprised me how contentious this topic is, so I asked my household what they think about it over breakfast. Mr. eirias came down quite volubly on the side of It Depends, with a taxonomy of local vendors and attendant rulings on whether their self-checkout is a blessing or several curses. Little eirias likes self-checkout because "feeding the money into the machine is fun." I think she was a little bit worried about accessibility, although it wasn't obvious to me which option she thought was more accessible. (When in doubt on an accessibility question, I'd guess that we ought to have both.)
I tend to avoid cashiers when I can, not because of class snobbishness (yuck) but because of mild social anxiety. I'd rather deal with fretting that I'm scanning things wrong (which I know how to fix, if it happens) than with fretting that I'm saying things wrong or making the wrong face (recovery from which is sometimes less clear). I know, it's an extremely low-stakes and even routine social interaction. I didn't say it made a lot of sense.
posted by eirias at 8:58 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I tend to avoid cashiers when I can, not because of class snobbishness (yuck) but because of mild social anxiety. I'd rather deal with fretting that I'm scanning things wrong (which I know how to fix, if it happens) than with fretting that I'm saying things wrong or making the wrong face (recovery from which is sometimes less clear). I know, it's an extremely low-stakes and even routine social interaction. I didn't say it made a lot of sense.
posted by eirias at 8:58 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mark me down as someone who has had some experience at retail and is absolutely behind self-checkouts. The "training" that I received was about 90% watching videos warning me of the dire consequences of trying to steal from the store by having my friends go through the checkout line with stuff that I would only pretend to scan, a scam that I had no idea people did before they told me exactly how it was done. The exceeding tedium of the job was only broken by young people insisting that it should be obvious that they were old enough to buy liquor and that they had no ID, as they stood in front of me with their car keys in their hand.
Now, I don't have to wait behind someone whose speed at performing simple financial transactions could best be described as "majestic" while I'm waiting to pay for the small container of spice that is the only thing that I came to the supermarket for. There are nowhere near as many problems as TFA suggests, and for what problems there are, there's an employee whose sole job is to fix them. It's great. I don't hate going through the clerked line for places that don't have self-checkouts, but I don't miss them any more than I miss having people pump gasoline for you.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:02 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
Now, I don't have to wait behind someone whose speed at performing simple financial transactions could best be described as "majestic" while I'm waiting to pay for the small container of spice that is the only thing that I came to the supermarket for. There are nowhere near as many problems as TFA suggests, and for what problems there are, there's an employee whose sole job is to fix them. It's great. I don't hate going through the clerked line for places that don't have self-checkouts, but I don't miss them any more than I miss having people pump gasoline for you.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:02 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
I hate self checkout. The UI is awful, they have you click through all sorts of different menus for donating and loyalty cards and bags or whatever, I detest the robots that yell at you with every step (why the heck do they make talking robot checkouts?), there always seems to be at least 1 item that won’t scan or comes up with an error requiring a cashier to intervene, and at the grocery store I have no interest in figuring out the codes for my produce and weighing them. The only place I use a self checkout is Shoppers Drugmart, because good luck actually finding a cashier at the till there, and if you do there is always someone spending 20 minutes buying scratch lottery tickets. Of course, at least half of the robots at Shoppers are also always out of order. I’m not sure why we shop there other than the convenience of it being a 5 minute walk from home.
Most places I shop the cashier is faster and has shorter lines than the robots, so I guess most customers must prefer the robots.
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:02 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
Most places I shop the cashier is faster and has shorter lines than the robots, so I guess most customers must prefer the robots.
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:02 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don't understand how to bag my items at self checkout without getting yelled at by the machine and so instead of calmly placing an item in my reusable bag (the sensor gets mad if I put down my own bag because it thinks I stole an item?) I get flustered and perch items precariously atop each other, bagless, and invariably knock something off, usually the jar of olives, which then lands on my foot and then I swear and swear and then realize 10 items after the fact that I screwed up and paid for the apples twice and then get into a minor spat with the spouse about why didn't we just wait for the cashier line and I agree, but my foot still hurts and once we're actually done with paying for anything and I've shoved the groceries randomly into the backpack and tote bags, the damn security guy at the exit wants to see my receipt which I shoved into the bottom of backpack so goddamn it all.
Uh count me in Team Effing Hell No to Self Checkouts.
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:12 AM on November 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
Uh count me in Team Effing Hell No to Self Checkouts.
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:12 AM on November 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
I was surprised to find that there’s a subset of people who prefer self-checkout because they are stealing stuff. Surely there are easier ways to shoplift than dealing with those self-checkout machines!
posted by snofoam at 9:26 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 9:26 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Formal training for plumbers is like 3 hours a decade sitting in a room to fulfill some requirement. 99.99999999% training is on the job, unless you do specialty gas work, like nitrous for dental offices.
Requirements will vary by jurisdiction, of course: where I live, plumbers are licensed following a three-year-long supervised apprenticeship after receiving a community college diploma in the trade.
Of course, anyone can go to Squarespace and make a website for their new business, Joe’s A-1 Plumming. I suspect that those who hire Joe will… be part of the 99.999999%.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:51 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Requirements will vary by jurisdiction, of course: where I live, plumbers are licensed following a three-year-long supervised apprenticeship after receiving a community college diploma in the trade.
Of course, anyone can go to Squarespace and make a website for their new business, Joe’s A-1 Plumming. I suspect that those who hire Joe will… be part of the 99.999999%.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:51 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Where are people using the system where you pick up a scanner at the entry to the store?
I saw it in Malmo, Sweden earlier this year and was excited to try it out but it wouldn't work with a Canadian bank card. It does seem to be, if not the way, then a way of the future, but it doesn't seem to be widespread in Europe yet, never mind over here.
posted by Flashman at 9:53 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I saw it in Malmo, Sweden earlier this year and was excited to try it out but it wouldn't work with a Canadian bank card. It does seem to be, if not the way, then a way of the future, but it doesn't seem to be widespread in Europe yet, never mind over here.
posted by Flashman at 9:53 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
If we're talking accessibility, as an autistic person I do like having the option of a self-checkout, because even that level of social interaction requires social, verbal and auditory processing spoons I don't always have to spare. On the other hand, as a wheelchair user, most of those things are not easy to use from a seated position. Swings, roundabouts.
Honestly, call me a self-checkout centrist, but I tend to think it's a good thing to have the option of self-checkouts, but a bad thing that they seem to be crowding out human cashiers. Both is good.
posted by BlueNorther at 10:01 AM on November 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
Honestly, call me a self-checkout centrist, but I tend to think it's a good thing to have the option of self-checkouts, but a bad thing that they seem to be crowding out human cashiers. Both is good.
posted by BlueNorther at 10:01 AM on November 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
They're pretty common in the big chain supermarkets here (in the UK) - just in the town I live in, ASDA and Sainsbury's have them, and the big Tesco in the next town over as well. Smaller corner-shop-like places won't, though they'll often have self-checkout.
posted by entity447b at 10:02 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by entity447b at 10:02 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I hate grocery shopping. Hate it. Want it done in the most efficient way possible. I have friends who spend hours a week just...grocery shopping. I might spend about an hour a month.
Self checkout is the greatest thing, for me, since sliced bread.
I’m with you on the front half, but we have come to very different conclusions as to self-checkouts. I haven’t really driven in decades now, and it’s been thirty years since I have lived more than a kilometre from a grocery store. I have traditionally made one to two trips a week and picked up a bagful of things each time.
My food was always fresher*, I wasted basically zero food, and I was always out of the door of the store before the people ahead of me (that is to say, I would be bagged up and on my way before whoever preceded me at the cashier had finished arranging all their purchases in their cart to schlep to the car).
Of course, this is all predicated on the existence of express lanes, of the “8/10/12/16 items or fewer” variety; these seems to have largely vanished in the era of self-checkouts.
Anyway, while I appreciate the benefits of self-checkouts for the neurodiverse and others mentioned above, as with all automation, it seems to predicated on everything working fine. And they do not work fine.
*Well, I got married a few years ago to someone who believes in doing a massive grocery shop once a month or so, and we likely throw out more food as spoiled than I ever bought as a single person.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:06 AM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Self checkout is the greatest thing, for me, since sliced bread.
I’m with you on the front half, but we have come to very different conclusions as to self-checkouts. I haven’t really driven in decades now, and it’s been thirty years since I have lived more than a kilometre from a grocery store. I have traditionally made one to two trips a week and picked up a bagful of things each time.
My food was always fresher*, I wasted basically zero food, and I was always out of the door of the store before the people ahead of me (that is to say, I would be bagged up and on my way before whoever preceded me at the cashier had finished arranging all their purchases in their cart to schlep to the car).
Of course, this is all predicated on the existence of express lanes, of the “8/10/12/16 items or fewer” variety; these seems to have largely vanished in the era of self-checkouts.
Anyway, while I appreciate the benefits of self-checkouts for the neurodiverse and others mentioned above, as with all automation, it seems to predicated on everything working fine. And they do not work fine.
*Well, I got married a few years ago to someone who believes in doing a massive grocery shop once a month or so, and we likely throw out more food as spoiled than I ever bought as a single person.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:06 AM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
On skilled vs unskilled labour: I think the difficulty here is that some of us insist on attaching the word "skilled" to a job description rather than to a worker who has earned it.
This is a foul and dehumanizing abuse of language to push a corporate workers-as-interchangeable-parts propaganda agenda, one in which I refuse to participate.
It's just another splash of lube on the slippery slope into hell that got started when personnel became "human resources", the subsequent corporate strip-mining of which was predictable and predicted by those of us who care about this kind of thing.
Regardless of how little you're paid for what you do: if you do it with skill, that skill merits respect.
posted by flabdablet at 10:06 AM on November 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is a foul and dehumanizing abuse of language to push a corporate workers-as-interchangeable-parts propaganda agenda, one in which I refuse to participate.
It's just another splash of lube on the slippery slope into hell that got started when personnel became "human resources", the subsequent corporate strip-mining of which was predictable and predicted by those of us who care about this kind of thing.
Regardless of how little you're paid for what you do: if you do it with skill, that skill merits respect.
posted by flabdablet at 10:06 AM on November 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
Any self-checkout that includes a receipt printer or cash handling will fail, seemingly always when I'm using it. The fewer moving parts, the better.
Touch-screens you can't operate while wearing gloves are annoying: Shopper's Drug Mart get a special award for that misfeature. Sometimes crappy old resistive touchscreen technology is better.
posted by scruss at 10:13 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Touch-screens you can't operate while wearing gloves are annoying: Shopper's Drug Mart get a special award for that misfeature. Sometimes crappy old resistive touchscreen technology is better.
posted by scruss at 10:13 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I hate having to interact human checkout staff at most mainstream supermarkets (Vons, Ralphs, etc, etc) because those poor people are required by corporate to go through this whole script trying to hassle me into signing up for privacy-violating surveillance "VIP" cards.
posted by technodelic at 10:35 AM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by technodelic at 10:35 AM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I worked register at Kmart in high school, a long time ago. I like self-checkout, what I don't like is other people in self-checkout. Full carts in the express lane, inability to read the screen and follow instructions, sluggish bagging...
Running a register and bagging goods is a skill, for better or for worse. It was at times boring, at times exhausting, and ironically I'm happy to do it myself, because even though it sometimes means waiting for other people to fumble through the process, once I get to the checkout kiosk, I move quickly.
And yes, Uniqlo's self checkout is indistinguishable from magic.
posted by Leviathant at 10:39 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Running a register and bagging goods is a skill, for better or for worse. It was at times boring, at times exhausting, and ironically I'm happy to do it myself, because even though it sometimes means waiting for other people to fumble through the process, once I get to the checkout kiosk, I move quickly.
And yes, Uniqlo's self checkout is indistinguishable from magic.
posted by Leviathant at 10:39 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Note that the recent "shoplifting epidemic" has proven to be nearly entirely a bunch of lies by big corporations to justify shitty service, store closure, etc
Based on all the people in this thread that state they are justified on stealing shit from every store they visit because capitalism or whatever, turns out it not a bunch of lies after all.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 10:51 AM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Based on all the people in this thread that state they are justified on stealing shit from every store they visit because capitalism or whatever, turns out it not a bunch of lies after all.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 10:51 AM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Hmmm, so no one said that, your paraphrase goes a bit further than anyone here
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:55 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:55 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
It’s not a failed experiment for this autistic person, who greatly prefers it to the alternative. Except for the fact that I’ve been in a year+ fight with Safeway to give customers back the option to mute the incessant mechanical voice narrating everything I’m doing, which I can hear even through my earplugs. I’ve had to go so far as to file a disability accommodations complaint with my state officials.
posted by bixfrankonis at 11:20 AM on November 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by bixfrankonis at 11:20 AM on November 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
Re skilled/unskilled: to me an unskilled job is one that the average person could start doing same day with just some mentoring and supervision, whereas a skilled job requires prior education and an understanding of a non-trivial amount of rules and regulations in order to perform their role safely. Eg - electrician, gas-fitter.
So then, is Waffle House Cook a skilled labor position? (Warning: trick question!)
posted by JHarris at 11:24 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
So then, is Waffle House Cook a skilled labor position? (Warning: trick question!)
posted by JHarris at 11:24 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Related is the recent episode of the If Books Could Kill podcast about the retail theft panic.
The short of it is: it's entirely made up.
All the articles trace back to the National Retail Federation, whose reports are so bogus in lacking actual data that they cite literal Tumblr posts and Reddit comments. It's as lacking of any real data as the Satanic panic against Dungeons & Dragons or Harry Potter or whatever.
It's worth a listen. The media launders these talking points and nobody actually checks. Hobbs repeats again how people consider him a great journalist when really, "I just actually read the PDFs that are available to anyone."
posted by AlSweigart at 11:30 AM on November 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
The short of it is: it's entirely made up.
All the articles trace back to the National Retail Federation, whose reports are so bogus in lacking actual data that they cite literal Tumblr posts and Reddit comments. It's as lacking of any real data as the Satanic panic against Dungeons & Dragons or Harry Potter or whatever.
It's worth a listen. The media launders these talking points and nobody actually checks. Hobbs repeats again how people consider him a great journalist when really, "I just actually read the PDFs that are available to anyone."
posted by AlSweigart at 11:30 AM on November 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
So then, is Waffle House Cook a skilled labor position? (Warning: trick question!)
I will defer to the last statement of this earlier comment.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:30 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I will defer to the last statement of this earlier comment.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:30 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think there'd be less objection to self-checkout if it wasn't so effing buggy, screws up on the bag thing constantly, you have to call over a checker to verify your Mucinex, and every other buggy-ass thing. When you have to station a checker just to stand around and troubleshoot everyone's trying to scan it themselves, this seems to me like a problem. And also I'll just get a regular checker. I'll only use self checkout if it's 1-2 items and I'm in a rush.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:48 AM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:48 AM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't understand how to bag my items at self checkout without getting yelled at by the machine and so instead of calmly placing an item in my reusable bag (the sensor gets mad if I put down my own bag because it thinks I stole an item?)
This is another problem that I've never had, possibly because my usual grocer of choice (Kroger) also sells reusable bags. It asks me if I've just put down a reusable bag and I say yeah and that's that. I think that I may have had to have the self-checkout attendant OK my using a heavier bag, like a bike pannier, but not usually.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:21 PM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is another problem that I've never had, possibly because my usual grocer of choice (Kroger) also sells reusable bags. It asks me if I've just put down a reusable bag and I say yeah and that's that. I think that I may have had to have the self-checkout attendant OK my using a heavier bag, like a bike pannier, but not usually.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:21 PM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Love self-checkout. Checking out in a line, with a person, too often was the terribly irritating part of shopping. The scan-guns are great, but I found it took getting used to! Too often I'd grab stuff, toss it in my bag, and continue. Only to realize, I forgot to scan some things. Which ones?! LOL
In regular checkout lines, I get VERY steamed by checkers who find it difficult to enter numbers, when a barcode fails. Numeric keyboard is clearly not a required skill. I happen to be an ace at that.
posted by Goofyy at 12:32 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
In regular checkout lines, I get VERY steamed by checkers who find it difficult to enter numbers, when a barcode fails. Numeric keyboard is clearly not a required skill. I happen to be an ace at that.
posted by Goofyy at 12:32 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I didn't really connect with the arguments in this article at all. I prefer self check-out because it is slower and I'm not being raced through the line. I can also check prices as they are rung up and make sure I get my coupon/discounts. Also, it is the only way to make sure that my raw chicken doesn't end up in the same bag with the toilet cleaner, or the strawberries don't end up under the apples.
posted by Toddles at 12:38 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Toddles at 12:38 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Worst of both worlds: self-checkout babysitter clerk who is lonely and talks to you about all your groceries.
I actually don't mind chatting to the clerk in line. The interaction is more or less a script with variations on weather, upcoming or past holiday, or relative busyness of store so it doesn't take a lot of effort. But if I go through the self-checkout, that means I don't want to talk.
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:46 PM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
I actually don't mind chatting to the clerk in line. The interaction is more or less a script with variations on weather, upcoming or past holiday, or relative busyness of store so it doesn't take a lot of effort. But if I go through the self-checkout, that means I don't want to talk.
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:46 PM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
hmmm...back when we wore onions on our belts, the checkout i went to had a union checker who sat on a stool and a union bagboy who ya tipped for doing it well. i just can't see this as an improvement. it's buggy as fuck. it hasn't enriched anyone's life, excepting money for the vultures.
posted by j_curiouser at 1:03 PM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by j_curiouser at 1:03 PM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
(the sensor gets mad if I put down my own bag because it thinks I stole an item?)
I'm a huge reusable bags user and what I've found is that nine times out of ten, you can scan an item, place it in your bag, and then place the bag in the bagging area- most systems are looking for "did something get added to the bagging area?" and aren't sophisticated enough or knowledgeable enoug to ask questions like "was the change reasonable for the size of the scanned item?"
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:14 PM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm a huge reusable bags user and what I've found is that nine times out of ten, you can scan an item, place it in your bag, and then place the bag in the bagging area- most systems are looking for "did something get added to the bagging area?" and aren't sophisticated enough or knowledgeable enoug to ask questions like "was the change reasonable for the size of the scanned item?"
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:14 PM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think the difficulty here is that some of us insist on attaching the word "skilled" to a job description rather than to a worker who has earned it.
That is common usage here in the US. A kind of quick rule is that if one can get hired for a position with an irrelevant or nonexistent work history/experience, it's a position that's considered unskilled. Trying to inject a sense of dignity to labor by declaring it all skilled is well and good, but irrelevant in this instance.
I refuse to use self-checkouts, both because I don't like them and because of the effect they have in destroying jobs.
What's interesting to me is how much symbolism is attached to self checkout. It seems powerful, particularly to those who dislike it. However, self checkout looks to be widely liked by just as many, for a variety of reasons, including by (perhaps especially by) folks who've actually worked checkout lines. The concern about jobs lost is noble, but the current climate in the US of unemployment lower than 4%, the pressure is to automate more, not less. Destroying jobs is not a real concern here.
This morning I breezed through the human till side with no queueing at all, while a line of 20-odd people waited their turn at the self-checkouts. I exchanged a few convivial words with the guy at the till as he packed my shopping in the (rival supermarket's) bag-for-life I'd remembered to bring along and was out on the street again in minutes.
The imbalance isn't always quite as pronounced as that, but it's pretty common for the human option to be quicker in this particular store. Why anyone would prefer to opt for the robots in that situation defeats me. I wonder to what extent it's a generational divide?
It sounds like consumers kind of prefer the self checkout, despite whatever advantage the human checker has.
hmmm...back when we wore onions on our belts, the checkout i went to had a union checker who sat on a stool and a union bagboy who ya tipped for doing it well. i just can't see this as an improvement. it's buggy as fuck. it hasn't enriched anyone's life, excepting money for the vultures.
The grocery store I went to this morning is staffed by union checkers, baggers, etc. and does about even self checkout/non self checkout. They're not allowed to take tips. For fuckssakes, lets not start the tipping bullshit to baggers. Those good old days were really kind of shitty.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:41 PM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
That is common usage here in the US. A kind of quick rule is that if one can get hired for a position with an irrelevant or nonexistent work history/experience, it's a position that's considered unskilled. Trying to inject a sense of dignity to labor by declaring it all skilled is well and good, but irrelevant in this instance.
I refuse to use self-checkouts, both because I don't like them and because of the effect they have in destroying jobs.
What's interesting to me is how much symbolism is attached to self checkout. It seems powerful, particularly to those who dislike it. However, self checkout looks to be widely liked by just as many, for a variety of reasons, including by (perhaps especially by) folks who've actually worked checkout lines. The concern about jobs lost is noble, but the current climate in the US of unemployment lower than 4%, the pressure is to automate more, not less. Destroying jobs is not a real concern here.
This morning I breezed through the human till side with no queueing at all, while a line of 20-odd people waited their turn at the self-checkouts. I exchanged a few convivial words with the guy at the till as he packed my shopping in the (rival supermarket's) bag-for-life I'd remembered to bring along and was out on the street again in minutes.
The imbalance isn't always quite as pronounced as that, but it's pretty common for the human option to be quicker in this particular store. Why anyone would prefer to opt for the robots in that situation defeats me. I wonder to what extent it's a generational divide?
It sounds like consumers kind of prefer the self checkout, despite whatever advantage the human checker has.
hmmm...back when we wore onions on our belts, the checkout i went to had a union checker who sat on a stool and a union bagboy who ya tipped for doing it well. i just can't see this as an improvement. it's buggy as fuck. it hasn't enriched anyone's life, excepting money for the vultures.
The grocery store I went to this morning is staffed by union checkers, baggers, etc. and does about even self checkout/non self checkout. They're not allowed to take tips. For fuckssakes, lets not start the tipping bullshit to baggers. Those good old days were really kind of shitty.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:41 PM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
In Japan there is the self-checkout part of the supermarket (though not all have them...yet). Place your basket on a counter that has a scale and then place your bags on the other counter, also with a scale. Scan and place items in your bag. If the balance is off, it'll flash a warning. Because it's Japan, if you have a problem and get stuck a red light flashes above your screen and a staff member will swoop in to help. Those scales are really sensitive, maybe overly sensitive, so I have learned to place things veeeery carefully lest I get stuck, which is annoying.
The other type prevalent in smaller stores isn't self-checkout but rather self-pay. The cashier will simply scan your items, and you pay yourself with a cash machine there at the counter. It's like a reversed cash register: the customer deals with the payment. It's fast and convenient, and (seemingly) doesn't rid anyone of a job. Someone still has to do the scanning.
posted by zardoz at 1:46 PM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
The other type prevalent in smaller stores isn't self-checkout but rather self-pay. The cashier will simply scan your items, and you pay yourself with a cash machine there at the counter. It's like a reversed cash register: the customer deals with the payment. It's fast and convenient, and (seemingly) doesn't rid anyone of a job. Someone still has to do the scanning.
posted by zardoz at 1:46 PM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
For me, the self-checkout has basically replaced the express lane, and I'd make that trade every time. You still have someone monitoring it so the job loss issue isn't such a big deal (back in the day when express lanes existed, I'd sometimes use a regular lane if I was buying only one thing because the express lane had a line of 6 people buying 7 things), but there's effectively four or more registers running at one time so generally it goes a lot quicker. If I'm buying anything that would be the least bit complicated, I'll probably go through the regular staffed lanes, and that includes buying alcohol, which I can't buy at self-checkout in California. I would much rather than they had maintained more staff for the regular lanes, because the lines for those are more ridiculous now on a regular basis. It seems like things generally work pretty smoothly at the store I go to - the machines aren't awful and people are used to working them, so there's not so many hang-ups.
I used to have problems with some things, but those seem to have minimized over time. Some minor annoyances:
- The scale on the "purchased" side - If I'm just buying a plastic packet of spices or something similarly massless, it won't register on the scale and I'd have to have someone come and clear it up, but I haven't had that problem in a long time.
- A lot of produce at my store now has bar codes on the little sticker, so you can scan those and then weigh them. Much easier than trying to type out what specific kind of apple I'm getting. Hasn't yet happened with things like garlic.
- I don't often use coupons, but when I did, the machine was horrible with them. Scanning the coupon is super easy, but getting the machine to recognize that you've inserted the coupon into the little slot so that you can't use it again was enough of a pain that I started using the staffed aisles if I was using coupons. I don't know if other stores have better machines for that than Meijer in Michigan did.
- In my area, they charge you for bags (five or ten cents each) you use that are provided by the grocery store, so I bring my own. The bags are WAY more substantial than plastic bags I used to get for free, but also with charging for them, the checkers and baggers will fill them up instead of only putting a couple items in and going to the next bag. It does slow things down a bit in self-checkout, where the bags aren't right at the checkout machine, they're over by the person monitoring the area. Also, with my own bags, I don't bother trying to put everything in a bag while I'm purchasing it, I just scan everything as fast as I can and then bag stuff after I've paid, but I'm typically not buying a whole bunch of things.
posted by LionIndex at 1:56 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I used to have problems with some things, but those seem to have minimized over time. Some minor annoyances:
- The scale on the "purchased" side - If I'm just buying a plastic packet of spices or something similarly massless, it won't register on the scale and I'd have to have someone come and clear it up, but I haven't had that problem in a long time.
- A lot of produce at my store now has bar codes on the little sticker, so you can scan those and then weigh them. Much easier than trying to type out what specific kind of apple I'm getting. Hasn't yet happened with things like garlic.
- I don't often use coupons, but when I did, the machine was horrible with them. Scanning the coupon is super easy, but getting the machine to recognize that you've inserted the coupon into the little slot so that you can't use it again was enough of a pain that I started using the staffed aisles if I was using coupons. I don't know if other stores have better machines for that than Meijer in Michigan did.
- In my area, they charge you for bags (five or ten cents each) you use that are provided by the grocery store, so I bring my own. The bags are WAY more substantial than plastic bags I used to get for free, but also with charging for them, the checkers and baggers will fill them up instead of only putting a couple items in and going to the next bag. It does slow things down a bit in self-checkout, where the bags aren't right at the checkout machine, they're over by the person monitoring the area. Also, with my own bags, I don't bother trying to put everything in a bag while I'm purchasing it, I just scan everything as fast as I can and then bag stuff after I've paid, but I'm typically not buying a whole bunch of things.
posted by LionIndex at 1:56 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I tend to use self-checkouts for two reasons:
1) These days, people who are using choosing human cashiers either have a huge cartload that would be uncomfortable in a small self-checkout kiosk, or want to do something complicated that will require a human cashier to process.
2) Most times in large stores, if self-checkout exists, there are fourteen checkout lines and two of them have human cashiers. Sometimes one. Sometimes none that aren't already bogged down with other customers. Whereas self-checkout usually has four or five kiosks, and sometimes more.
The odds that at least one self-checkout customer is in the process of FUBARing their checkout process are pretty good, but that's largely irrelevant to me; the odds that EVERY kiosk is simultaneously in use by idiots or malfunctioning are low. Reasonable efficiency can chart a path around human roadblocks and flow around them. Whereas we've all known that feeling where you're fourth in line, the customer up front apparently wants to pay for $300 worth of groceries or retail goods with a third-party check and an Exxon gift card, and time stands still for an eternity.
posted by delfin at 1:58 PM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
1) These days, people who are using choosing human cashiers either have a huge cartload that would be uncomfortable in a small self-checkout kiosk, or want to do something complicated that will require a human cashier to process.
2) Most times in large stores, if self-checkout exists, there are fourteen checkout lines and two of them have human cashiers. Sometimes one. Sometimes none that aren't already bogged down with other customers. Whereas self-checkout usually has four or five kiosks, and sometimes more.
The odds that at least one self-checkout customer is in the process of FUBARing their checkout process are pretty good, but that's largely irrelevant to me; the odds that EVERY kiosk is simultaneously in use by idiots or malfunctioning are low. Reasonable efficiency can chart a path around human roadblocks and flow around them. Whereas we've all known that feeling where you're fourth in line, the customer up front apparently wants to pay for $300 worth of groceries or retail goods with a third-party check and an Exxon gift card, and time stands still for an eternity.
posted by delfin at 1:58 PM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Regarding the skilled/unskilled terminology, given that we’ve adjusted the way we talk about topics, trying to be cognizant of arguably shitty connotations (remember when hard drives used to use master/slave notation?), it seems there’s a good number of people who are arguing that the terminology of unskilled labor is rooted in a lot of shitty employment practices and wage suppression, and that there’s good reason to adopt newer, more accurate phrasing.
A lot of the pushback seems to come from either people who don’t like having to update their vocabularies. That’s the generous position. Joining them on the side of resisting more humanizing language: corporate structures that directly benefit from language that helps their argument that some workers don’t need a living wage, and others who just really need someone they can look down on in a socially acceptable way. I mean, if I were on one side of a dispute, and I looked over at the people agreeing with me, and they were that reprehensible, I might reevaluate my position, I think.
The whole concept of unskilled labor worsens pretty much it touches. It robs workers of the right to feel any pride in work well done, and obviates any real training that might elevate the worker from a cog in a machine designed for simplicity and profit over quality to a person who feels a sense of self worth derived from satisfaction at work well done. After all, as we’ve been conditioned to believe, unskilled labor is apathetic, incompetent, and replaceable. Why train staff to understand and do their job well when you can just hire and fire until you find someone who can figure it out on their own, or, you know, not, as it’s not like the customer should expect any better.
Past that, labor is labor, and corporations will do whatever they can to save a dime. Convincing customers to do the labor they used to have to pay for? Now that’s innovation! Waggle the flag of convenience, even if it’s demonstrably not true, and it turns out you’ll have people falling all over themselves to do free work for multinational chains.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:00 PM on November 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
A lot of the pushback seems to come from either people who don’t like having to update their vocabularies. That’s the generous position. Joining them on the side of resisting more humanizing language: corporate structures that directly benefit from language that helps their argument that some workers don’t need a living wage, and others who just really need someone they can look down on in a socially acceptable way. I mean, if I were on one side of a dispute, and I looked over at the people agreeing with me, and they were that reprehensible, I might reevaluate my position, I think.
The whole concept of unskilled labor worsens pretty much it touches. It robs workers of the right to feel any pride in work well done, and obviates any real training that might elevate the worker from a cog in a machine designed for simplicity and profit over quality to a person who feels a sense of self worth derived from satisfaction at work well done. After all, as we’ve been conditioned to believe, unskilled labor is apathetic, incompetent, and replaceable. Why train staff to understand and do their job well when you can just hire and fire until you find someone who can figure it out on their own, or, you know, not, as it’s not like the customer should expect any better.
Past that, labor is labor, and corporations will do whatever they can to save a dime. Convincing customers to do the labor they used to have to pay for? Now that’s innovation! Waggle the flag of convenience, even if it’s demonstrably not true, and it turns out you’ll have people falling all over themselves to do free work for multinational chains.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:00 PM on November 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
The cashier will simply scan your items, and you pay yourself with a cash machine there at the counter. It's like a reversed cash register: the customer deals with the payment.
Is this any different from the machines in the US? They'll take cash and give you change, or they'll read your card. Unless you're paying with cash, that's pretty much the case for every transaction in the US now - grocery stores are the only places I've seen with a machine that will accept cash and deal with change, but there's a little card reader at almost every cashier, staffed or not.
posted by LionIndex at 2:02 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is this any different from the machines in the US? They'll take cash and give you change, or they'll read your card. Unless you're paying with cash, that's pretty much the case for every transaction in the US now - grocery stores are the only places I've seen with a machine that will accept cash and deal with change, but there's a little card reader at almost every cashier, staffed or not.
posted by LionIndex at 2:02 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
That said, if my local Giant's self-checkout sensors are on the fritz and I get a symphony of "Please place the last item in the bagging area," I am not above beginning an increasingly loud counter-chant of "THE WHITE ZONE IS FOR IMMEDIATE LOADING AND UNLOADING OF PASSENGERS ONLY. THERE IS NO STOPPING IN THE RED ZONE" until my wife tells me to stop.
posted by delfin at 2:06 PM on November 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by delfin at 2:06 PM on November 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
Why not be upfront with "I don't believe in that distinction" instead of arguing job by job with anyone that would deign to call any job "unskilled labor?"
posted by Selena777 at 2:06 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 2:06 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Waggle the flag of convenience, even if it’s demonstrably not true, and it turns out you’ll have people falling all over themselves to do free work for multinational chains.
The thing that is work for me is dealing with a human. I avoid that work for the triviality of scanning my groceries while I move them from my basket to my bag - not much different to moving my groceries from the belt to my bag.
But sure, I'm just a dope being duped by capital. I couldn't possibly have different preferences to you.
posted by Dysk at 2:14 PM on November 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
The thing that is work for me is dealing with a human. I avoid that work for the triviality of scanning my groceries while I move them from my basket to my bag - not much different to moving my groceries from the belt to my bag.
But sure, I'm just a dope being duped by capital. I couldn't possibly have different preferences to you.
posted by Dysk at 2:14 PM on November 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
The slowest part of the transaction was all the people pulling out their paper checks to pay.
Christ. Many (most) of them would not even pull the checkbook out until the cashier was done (when 90% of what needs to be filled in can be done without knowing how much it's going to cost) and even then they would open the register section of those damned books and write a small novella about what they were buying and try to balance the book from last weeks purchases before they even started writing the actual check. If you watched carefully you could see their hand move.
posted by maxwelton at 2:17 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Christ. Many (most) of them would not even pull the checkbook out until the cashier was done (when 90% of what needs to be filled in can be done without knowing how much it's going to cost) and even then they would open the register section of those damned books and write a small novella about what they were buying and try to balance the book from last weeks purchases before they even started writing the actual check. If you watched carefully you could see their hand move.
posted by maxwelton at 2:17 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Regarding the skilled/unskilled terminology ... there’s good reason to adopt newer, more accurate phrasing.
I very much believe that all work should be afforded dignity, and that a full-time wage should be enough to live on. So... what's the newer, more accurate phrasing? Is there a new delination to go with the new adjectives?
Having worked a number of contract jobs, I can assure everyone that in many circumstances, "skilled" work is also often precarious and those workers are also considered disposable.
posted by Artful Codger at 2:20 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I very much believe that all work should be afforded dignity, and that a full-time wage should be enough to live on. So... what's the newer, more accurate phrasing? Is there a new delination to go with the new adjectives?
Having worked a number of contract jobs, I can assure everyone that in many circumstances, "skilled" work is also often precarious and those workers are also considered disposable.
posted by Artful Codger at 2:20 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
On a separate note, self checkout is almost everywhere in Japan now, and if you’d like to see what great advances it’s made on society, well, none, really. Wages are still stagnant, and while there are job ads on every window, the jobs are offering some of the lowest wages in the industrialized world (¥1000/hour, or about $6.20 US). More and more space is given over to self check, with fewer working staff, which goes over just fine in a culture that largely avoids complaining.
A more recent development are unstaffed “stores” selling frozen food or prepared, boxed meals. These feature heavily on the afternoon news channels that used to give their viewers their needed sense of righteous indignations by tailing shoplifters through stores on camera, then filming while a manager berates a housewife for stealing mayonnaise and cooking oil, while waiting for the cops to arrive. These stores are the new thing, with announcers breathlessly narrating how some terrible human being walks into the utterly empty store front and takes something without paying. Occasionally, they’ll show someone who comes in prepared, and cleans the store out. We get to see all of this because, while the store owner has decided they can’t afford to staff their store, they can of course fill the entire space with cameras.
All of this shit about the honor system? Part of the system is the social contract, which used to include stuff about honest pay for honest work, and other quaint bygones. The store owner used to be a part of the community from which they derived profit. Those they employed mostly put their wages back into the local economy, and rising tides etc. Instead, we have wealth extraction and cost cutting. If corporations are so determined to remove themselves from the ties and responsibility that come from being part of the community, why should they be allowed any of the mutual support a community offers to its members when they are injured? As pointed out, again and again, much of the furor about retail theft is wholly exaggerated if not outright invented. But, even then, if a company has decided to remove itself from any kind of mutually beneficial arrangement with society, fuck em, rob them blind for all I care. I’ll be at the store that pays its workers and takes care of its customers (until those get bought out and replaced, of course).
posted by Ghidorah at 2:21 PM on November 19, 2023 [17 favorites]
A more recent development are unstaffed “stores” selling frozen food or prepared, boxed meals. These feature heavily on the afternoon news channels that used to give their viewers their needed sense of righteous indignations by tailing shoplifters through stores on camera, then filming while a manager berates a housewife for stealing mayonnaise and cooking oil, while waiting for the cops to arrive. These stores are the new thing, with announcers breathlessly narrating how some terrible human being walks into the utterly empty store front and takes something without paying. Occasionally, they’ll show someone who comes in prepared, and cleans the store out. We get to see all of this because, while the store owner has decided they can’t afford to staff their store, they can of course fill the entire space with cameras.
All of this shit about the honor system? Part of the system is the social contract, which used to include stuff about honest pay for honest work, and other quaint bygones. The store owner used to be a part of the community from which they derived profit. Those they employed mostly put their wages back into the local economy, and rising tides etc. Instead, we have wealth extraction and cost cutting. If corporations are so determined to remove themselves from the ties and responsibility that come from being part of the community, why should they be allowed any of the mutual support a community offers to its members when they are injured? As pointed out, again and again, much of the furor about retail theft is wholly exaggerated if not outright invented. But, even then, if a company has decided to remove itself from any kind of mutually beneficial arrangement with society, fuck em, rob them blind for all I care. I’ll be at the store that pays its workers and takes care of its customers (until those get bought out and replaced, of course).
posted by Ghidorah at 2:21 PM on November 19, 2023 [17 favorites]
Almost as bad are cash payers who pull out little coin purses and hunt through them trying to come up with exact change, primly putting each coin down as they find them and clearly expecting a foil star for their efforts when done.
Sorry, I am the world's worst line chooser and inevitably get these people in front of me.
posted by maxwelton at 2:22 PM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Sorry, I am the world's worst line chooser and inevitably get these people in front of me.
posted by maxwelton at 2:22 PM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
From a purely systems POV (sorry haven't read all the comments above so maybe someone touched on this) it seems to me that the issue is assuming a worker is a single function being. "We replaced the worker who operated the tills (who ALSO... but we will leave that out and then FIRE EVERYONE AND SAVE MONEY!)" How come nothing is getting done. Oh you mean you don't have per-function workers, you have them do any and everything you can as fast as you can to get more and more done without having backup. Then when you replace that function - hey how come these OTHER functions aren't being done.
Now they have to design the bots to do the other functions. And spend all the money on that. But hey it's just them getting what they get back - you treat us as autonomous single-use beings while overloading us with tasks beyond necessary in the name of expediency and most importantly profit? Well now you get it back, exploiters.
OK carry on with how you do or do not like self-checkout
posted by symbioid at 2:31 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Now they have to design the bots to do the other functions. And spend all the money on that. But hey it's just them getting what they get back - you treat us as autonomous single-use beings while overloading us with tasks beyond necessary in the name of expediency and most importantly profit? Well now you get it back, exploiters.
OK carry on with how you do or do not like self-checkout
posted by symbioid at 2:31 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm also not above fudging things if a system makes checkout inconvenient. Kohlrabi, kohlrabi, it's not scanning, let's look it up by initial, it's not there either... screw it, it's Green Peppers today, into the bag it goes.
But do not make the mistake of thinking that no one is watching you, particularly in a big-box store where the stakes can be higher than proper produce pricing. Like how Walmart has people who can monitor self-checkout transactions from the back room, and reportedly cause a checkout kiosk to glitch remotely at the press of a button if they sense major theft in progress (say, the old "put a banana's barcode on a TV box" trick) so that a human can "assist" the customer with their checkout. Or how Target is considering restricting self-checkout to ten items or less. Or how Costco is considering increasing human monitoring at self-checkout to minimize non-subscribers using actual members' cards.
As with most things in life, whether they hassle you for petty stuff depends on predictable factors.
posted by delfin at 2:48 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
But do not make the mistake of thinking that no one is watching you, particularly in a big-box store where the stakes can be higher than proper produce pricing. Like how Walmart has people who can monitor self-checkout transactions from the back room, and reportedly cause a checkout kiosk to glitch remotely at the press of a button if they sense major theft in progress (say, the old "put a banana's barcode on a TV box" trick) so that a human can "assist" the customer with their checkout. Or how Target is considering restricting self-checkout to ten items or less. Or how Costco is considering increasing human monitoring at self-checkout to minimize non-subscribers using actual members' cards.
As with most things in life, whether they hassle you for petty stuff depends on predictable factors.
posted by delfin at 2:48 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
The next stage, if anyone's interested - at Sainsbury's (though I think Tesco do it, too) - at the entrance, I scan a barcode with my phone and then go round the store scanning my groceries as I go and putting them in my bag*, then at check-out scan another barcode, it syncs my phone and I pay there. Sometimes the system requires one of the staff to re-scan a few items to make sure I'm telling the truth (and once I had to scan it all again), but on the whole it's a lot quicker than any previous system.
Oddly, because of the occasional checks, I've had more meaningful interactions with the checkout team (who still exist, but now their job is to go round ironing out glitches) than I ever did before.
(I realise the ultimate stage is the Amazon supermarket, but I'm not really interested in that.)
*Actually my bag is a shopping trolley - not the wire kind that supermarkets provide, but the bag-on-wheels kind I bring with me. I've reached the age where I have a shopping trolley, though now I have one I've realised that age should have been thirty years ago, because they're bloody marvellous.
posted by Grangousier at 3:17 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oddly, because of the occasional checks, I've had more meaningful interactions with the checkout team (who still exist, but now their job is to go round ironing out glitches) than I ever did before.
(I realise the ultimate stage is the Amazon supermarket, but I'm not really interested in that.)
*Actually my bag is a shopping trolley - not the wire kind that supermarkets provide, but the bag-on-wheels kind I bring with me. I've reached the age where I have a shopping trolley, though now I have one I've realised that age should have been thirty years ago, because they're bloody marvellous.
posted by Grangousier at 3:17 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Is this any different from the machines in the US? They'll take cash and give you change, or they'll read your card. Unless you're paying with cash, that's pretty much the case for every transaction in the US now - grocery stores are the only places I've seen with a machine that will accept cash and deal with change, but there's a little card reader at almost every cashier, staffed or not.
In the U.S. debit cards are standard but that was never really a thing in Japan--even now Japan is a very cash-centered country. People pay for most things with cash. Though every grocery store chain has its own electronic card pay system. And things like debit cards are being promoted in the past few years, along with various kinds of electronic payments, Apple Pay, etc.
posted by zardoz at 3:19 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
In the U.S. debit cards are standard but that was never really a thing in Japan--even now Japan is a very cash-centered country. People pay for most things with cash. Though every grocery store chain has its own electronic card pay system. And things like debit cards are being promoted in the past few years, along with various kinds of electronic payments, Apple Pay, etc.
posted by zardoz at 3:19 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Up through the early 2000s it wasn't lavish, but it was as clean and well-stocked as any other Target and then they just let it go to hell, which was a new policy choice since it's not like our part of MPLS was richer and fancier back then.
I think all Targets have gone to hell
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:12 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think all Targets have gone to hell
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:12 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
> Surely there are easier ways to shoplift than dealing with those self-checkout machines!
Like what? Someone at the self-checkout can just pick up two items at once and scan them at once -- "Oops, I didn't mean to do that!" Walmart's self-checkout scanners will actually scan multiple items at once to avoid this.
posted by reductiondesign at 4:21 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like what? Someone at the self-checkout can just pick up two items at once and scan them at once -- "Oops, I didn't mean to do that!" Walmart's self-checkout scanners will actually scan multiple items at once to avoid this.
posted by reductiondesign at 4:21 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
If they offered some sort of discount for self-checkout, I'd gladly use it. But ask me to do for free what you pay others to do? That value-prop has always struck me as overtly exploitive, and once you have no longer any reason for humans at your checkout, I'm quite certain the wait-on-line will be at least as long as it ever was.
posted by Fupped Duck at 4:24 PM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Fupped Duck at 4:24 PM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
My favorite thing about self checkout machines is repeatedly having the opportunity of telling them "go fuck yourself" as they simultaneously tell me that something failed. And I don't have to apologize or explain why a seemingly sweet little 60+y o. Southern lady is speaking profanities, lawd have mercy. Some stores hereabouts have gone entirely self checkout. I hate it because they never work fast enough for my scanning ability.
I work at a big box home improvement store that's just miserably trying to implement 99% self checkouts. Can you fathom having customers try to figure out how to lookup a single bolt or twenty pieces of plywood with partially destroyed bar codes? It is hell. And now the only personed checkouts in garden and lumber are where most customers go.
And corporate withholds our measly quarterly fauxnous because customer survey responses aren't 100% positive or our shrink margins aren't good.
Everyone forgets that during the lockdowns we essential workers were still facing customers every day. We died off and burnt out. Now, after the crisis, the ones who stayed are replaced by self checkouts. Morale in the breakroom is dismal here in nowhere USofA.
posted by mightshould at 4:34 PM on November 19, 2023 [15 favorites]
I work at a big box home improvement store that's just miserably trying to implement 99% self checkouts. Can you fathom having customers try to figure out how to lookup a single bolt or twenty pieces of plywood with partially destroyed bar codes? It is hell. And now the only personed checkouts in garden and lumber are where most customers go.
And corporate withholds our measly quarterly fauxnous because customer survey responses aren't 100% positive or our shrink margins aren't good.
Everyone forgets that during the lockdowns we essential workers were still facing customers every day. We died off and burnt out. Now, after the crisis, the ones who stayed are replaced by self checkouts. Morale in the breakroom is dismal here in nowhere USofA.
posted by mightshould at 4:34 PM on November 19, 2023 [15 favorites]
I actually prefer self-checkout if I'm only buying a few items and I can skip through quickly and be out the door with a minimum of human interaction. When they were first introduced here in Australia, they were briefly only replacing the 'express' checkouts and they work well for that. But when you have people bringing a whole trolley full of groceries and needing more bags than can fit on the bagging platform, the pace slows to a crawl because the scanners are so finicky and people are often very slow at scanning their items, getting them into a bag, setting off the weight alarm by removing bags at the wrong time etc that the model just doesn't work for anyone making larger purchases. I have heard of the systems where you scan as you take things from the shelf and they sound much more efficient and sensible but, in a world where supermarkets are installing cameras to monitor people doing the self-scan thing in a bid to avoid theft, I can't see them trusting their customers to that extent.
I agree with the multitudes that say Aldi has it all worked out. Much faster than any other staffed or self-scan checkout system I've ever seen.
posted by dg at 7:24 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I agree with the multitudes that say Aldi has it all worked out. Much faster than any other staffed or self-scan checkout system I've ever seen.
posted by dg at 7:24 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
For fuckssakes, lets not start the tipping bullshit to baggers.
yeah i didn't start that. anyways, I'm not so much waxing nostalgic as saying I'd prefer everyone that wants a job has one, at a living wage. /labor derail
posted by j_curiouser at 7:55 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
yeah i didn't start that. anyways, I'm not so much waxing nostalgic as saying I'd prefer everyone that wants a job has one, at a living wage. /labor derail
posted by j_curiouser at 7:55 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
If they offered some sort of discount for self-checkout, I'd gladly use it. But ask me to do for free what you pay others to do?
Do you resent pushing buttons in an elevator? Are you equally mad that they got rid of elevator attendants? If not, why is that different - it's still asking you to do yourself what they used to pay someone to do.
Much like a lot of people find it an advantage to not have to awkwardly stand next to an elevator attendant every time, a lot of us would pay more for the self-checkout, as it lets us avoid something much shittier.
I mean, I could sit here implying everyone who drives is an idiot when bus drivers get paid to do it for you, but I recognise that the conveniences it affords makes it a rational decision for some people, if not me.
It would be great if people could extend the same courtesy to those of us on this thread who prefer not to have to deal with people. We aren't idiots, we aren't dupes, we aren't responsible for undermining the the middle class dream.
Those of you actively sabotaging self-checkout systems by using them to justify theft on the hopes they will be removed: you are being actively ableist in the name of self-serving pettiness. It is frankly disgusting.
posted by Dysk at 9:17 PM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Do you resent pushing buttons in an elevator? Are you equally mad that they got rid of elevator attendants? If not, why is that different - it's still asking you to do yourself what they used to pay someone to do.
Much like a lot of people find it an advantage to not have to awkwardly stand next to an elevator attendant every time, a lot of us would pay more for the self-checkout, as it lets us avoid something much shittier.
I mean, I could sit here implying everyone who drives is an idiot when bus drivers get paid to do it for you, but I recognise that the conveniences it affords makes it a rational decision for some people, if not me.
It would be great if people could extend the same courtesy to those of us on this thread who prefer not to have to deal with people. We aren't idiots, we aren't dupes, we aren't responsible for undermining the the middle class dream.
Those of you actively sabotaging self-checkout systems by using them to justify theft on the hopes they will be removed: you are being actively ableist in the name of self-serving pettiness. It is frankly disgusting.
posted by Dysk at 9:17 PM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
it's fine whatever
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 10:27 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 10:27 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Do you resent pushing buttons in an elevator? Are you equally mad that they got rid of elevator attendants? If not, why is that different - it's still asking you to do yourself what they used to pay someone to do.
We might well be mad if most of us have ever used an elevator with an attendant! At DragonCon 2023 all of the elevators I used in the supposedly-upscale hotels didn't have attendants. It's hard to be mad about something you've never known! Standing awkwardly in an elevator with an attendant doesn't seem like a gigantic imposition, often one is sharing it with other riders anyway?
How about full service gas stations? In the words of Joel Robinson: "There was a time that we as a nation took pride in our service stations! They gleamed like a beacon of hope from coast to coast. Then one day: kablooey. Sky Chief super service turned into the Tank 'n' Tummy. I don't mind tellin' ya, the day this country went self-service is the day that Hell started to bubble over and flood the earth."
Back when most grocery stores were small local places, you'd tell a clerk what you wanted and they'd go get it for you. It meant you had less choice over your produce, but it was a lot more convenient! It's another practice that I've never experienced in my lifetime, and I am kind of mad no one does it that way any more!
It would be great if people could extend the same courtesy to those of us on this thread who prefer not to have to deal with people. We aren't idiots, we aren't dupes, we aren't responsible for undermining the the middle class dream.
Yes, but at the same time they have a point too, and you're kind of doing the same thing back at them? I think everyone in this thread is arguing in good faith and has valid perspectives. Both sides also mean entirely nothing to the stores who are determined to do it This Way regardless. Ideally the vaunted FREE MARKET would have some grocery stores offer fully-staffed checkouts and others would go completely self-serve, but that's not how it's going to work. Like grocery store service, like gas stations, like elevators, checkout counters are going to become a case where you're expected to do it yourself, taking on all of the effort and receiving no compensation for it. Some people will like it, some people will hate it, and we'll have no say in whether it occurs. And I think that's something we can all be upset over.
posted by JHarris at 10:48 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
We might well be mad if most of us have ever used an elevator with an attendant! At DragonCon 2023 all of the elevators I used in the supposedly-upscale hotels didn't have attendants. It's hard to be mad about something you've never known! Standing awkwardly in an elevator with an attendant doesn't seem like a gigantic imposition, often one is sharing it with other riders anyway?
How about full service gas stations? In the words of Joel Robinson: "There was a time that we as a nation took pride in our service stations! They gleamed like a beacon of hope from coast to coast. Then one day: kablooey. Sky Chief super service turned into the Tank 'n' Tummy. I don't mind tellin' ya, the day this country went self-service is the day that Hell started to bubble over and flood the earth."
Back when most grocery stores were small local places, you'd tell a clerk what you wanted and they'd go get it for you. It meant you had less choice over your produce, but it was a lot more convenient! It's another practice that I've never experienced in my lifetime, and I am kind of mad no one does it that way any more!
It would be great if people could extend the same courtesy to those of us on this thread who prefer not to have to deal with people. We aren't idiots, we aren't dupes, we aren't responsible for undermining the the middle class dream.
Yes, but at the same time they have a point too, and you're kind of doing the same thing back at them? I think everyone in this thread is arguing in good faith and has valid perspectives. Both sides also mean entirely nothing to the stores who are determined to do it This Way regardless. Ideally the vaunted FREE MARKET would have some grocery stores offer fully-staffed checkouts and others would go completely self-serve, but that's not how it's going to work. Like grocery store service, like gas stations, like elevators, checkout counters are going to become a case where you're expected to do it yourself, taking on all of the effort and receiving no compensation for it. Some people will like it, some people will hate it, and we'll have no say in whether it occurs. And I think that's something we can all be upset over.
posted by JHarris at 10:48 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
That is common usage here in the US.
I can't say I'm the slightest bit surprised by that.
Quite a lot of what looks to an Australian like frankly degrading levels of knee-bending and forelock-tugging to the corporate overlord seems to be common usage and accepted as normal in the US. It's why we get such a wry chuckle out of "the land of the free and the home of the brave" and feel the creeping horrors when exposed to that bizarre hand-on-heart loyalty-oath recitation horseshit the US subjects its small children to.
Free, my fat arse. I pledge obeisance to the Brand of the United States of America, and to the hypocrisy for which it stands, starvation under Money indivisible, with a pittance tossed my way if I can only smile hard enough.
posted by flabdablet at 11:01 PM on November 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
I can't say I'm the slightest bit surprised by that.
Quite a lot of what looks to an Australian like frankly degrading levels of knee-bending and forelock-tugging to the corporate overlord seems to be common usage and accepted as normal in the US. It's why we get such a wry chuckle out of "the land of the free and the home of the brave" and feel the creeping horrors when exposed to that bizarre hand-on-heart loyalty-oath recitation horseshit the US subjects its small children to.
Free, my fat arse. I pledge obeisance to the Brand of the United States of America, and to the hypocrisy for which it stands, starvation under Money indivisible, with a pittance tossed my way if I can only smile hard enough.
posted by flabdablet at 11:01 PM on November 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ellis Ace Hardware, a store nearby, still does the full service thing and it feels super anachronistic. Walk into a small customer area, get someone’s attention, describe what you’re looking for, and they retrieve it for you. We have an over abundance of excellent hardware stores here so I don’t choose it often, but when I do it’s with the expectation that they’ll actively help me understand what I need and what I’m getting.
posted by migurski at 11:10 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by migurski at 11:10 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I prefer self check-out because it is slower and I'm not being raced through the line.
I’m sure your perception that you are being rushed through has no connection with the store that used to have seven cashiers working now having one.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:12 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I’m sure your perception that you are being rushed through has no connection with the store that used to have seven cashiers working now having one.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:12 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes, but at the same time they have a point too, and you're kind of doing the same thing back at them?
Not really? I'm arguing for the status quo, where we have options. Others are arguing for removing one of the options.
Ideally the vaunted FREE MARKET would have some grocery stores offer fully-staffed checkouts and others would go completely self-serve, but that's not how it's going to work
The "vaunted free market" is currently giving us supermarkets that have both staffed and self-service checkouts most often, if not almost universally. It seems to be how it's working.
posted by Dysk at 11:28 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not really? I'm arguing for the status quo, where we have options. Others are arguing for removing one of the options.
Ideally the vaunted FREE MARKET would have some grocery stores offer fully-staffed checkouts and others would go completely self-serve, but that's not how it's going to work
The "vaunted free market" is currently giving us supermarkets that have both staffed and self-service checkouts most often, if not almost universally. It seems to be how it's working.
posted by Dysk at 11:28 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I do not like self-checkout one bit.
Happy for it to exist for those who like it, as long as there is also the option to pay somebody to do it for me.
If there was only self-checkout I would not be happy.
posted by Pouteria at 11:55 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Happy for it to exist for those who like it, as long as there is also the option to pay somebody to do it for me.
If there was only self-checkout I would not be happy.
posted by Pouteria at 11:55 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
a lot of people find it an advantage to not have to awkwardly stand next to an elevator attendant every time
Elevator attendants are nothing. Some upmarket joints here in the UK used to have attendants in the Gents' lavatory (almost always Black guys), whose job it was to stand to attention in the corner of the room while you pissed at one of the urinal stalls and then hand you a towel at the sink as you washed your hands afterwards.
The clear expectation was that you would tip them for this quite unwanted service - often by throwing a few coins into a saucer next to the taps - a procedure which I always found excruciatingly awkward. Imagine a snooty headwaiter silently judging you as you piss, and you'll get an idea of the general vibe these lavatories had. How people were ever brave enough to have a revoltingly smelly shit in those circumstances, I cannot imagine.
Some really posh places may still have toilets like this for all I know. I'm sure old Etonians are taught to navigate them with flawless aplomb, but it's something I never managed.
PS) I never though to ask at the time whether Ladies' lavatories in those places also had attendants and - if so - how users felt about that experience. Anyone?
posted by Paul Slade at 12:31 AM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
Elevator attendants are nothing. Some upmarket joints here in the UK used to have attendants in the Gents' lavatory (almost always Black guys), whose job it was to stand to attention in the corner of the room while you pissed at one of the urinal stalls and then hand you a towel at the sink as you washed your hands afterwards.
The clear expectation was that you would tip them for this quite unwanted service - often by throwing a few coins into a saucer next to the taps - a procedure which I always found excruciatingly awkward. Imagine a snooty headwaiter silently judging you as you piss, and you'll get an idea of the general vibe these lavatories had. How people were ever brave enough to have a revoltingly smelly shit in those circumstances, I cannot imagine.
Some really posh places may still have toilets like this for all I know. I'm sure old Etonians are taught to navigate them with flawless aplomb, but it's something I never managed.
PS) I never though to ask at the time whether Ladies' lavatories in those places also had attendants and - if so - how users felt about that experience. Anyone?
posted by Paul Slade at 12:31 AM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
Or how Costco is considering increasing human monitoring at self-checkout to minimize non-subscribers using actual members' cards.
Not considering—is, at least in my last couple visits. My last visit, I was accosted by an employee as I headed for the register who demanded to see my membership card. I said “I’m going to self-checkout” and he said “Mhm” and stood there waiting. So I’m fumbling to get the app up on the screen, causing more of a line to form behind me. I finally clear him and get to the register and start scanning, completely forgetting to scan my membership since it was just checked. So another employee swooped in and voided the item and had me scan my membership…which immediately threw an error. So I had to wait for the supervisor to come clear that.
In prior visits I have had employees stand there in self-checkout scanning stuff for me or organizing it on the scale/table. That is not self-checkout. That is an open plan register with an employee.
In the small town where I live, we had until two weeks ago two small grocery stores, both owned by the same regional chain, one of which had self-checkout. It was great. And they repurposed an old Kmart building into a larger store and closed the smaller ones, and this new store also has self-checkout. But this one seems to have a parasitic infection of an employee who not only is there to be your friend but will grab stuff out of your cart and scan it for you as you’re doing it yourself. This is self-checkout! I came here explicitly to scan my own stuff! I don’t even understand this woman.
So what I really was intending to say (even before I saw your comment) is that I love self-checkout but will avoid shopping at places that insist on making it a multiplayer sport. Costco is fast becoming one of those places. Meanwhile Sam’s Club not only has unmolested self-checkout, they have Scan and Go (scan on phone while shopping and pay in the app) which is even more better and I hate that it isn’t widespread here. I have both memberships but Costco isn’t that amazing that I wouldn’t be willing to drop them for this bullshit. I don’t have the same choice with my local grocery store (it’s the only grocery store in town) so will just have to avoid that one woman.
posted by tubedogg at 12:33 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Not considering—is, at least in my last couple visits. My last visit, I was accosted by an employee as I headed for the register who demanded to see my membership card. I said “I’m going to self-checkout” and he said “Mhm” and stood there waiting. So I’m fumbling to get the app up on the screen, causing more of a line to form behind me. I finally clear him and get to the register and start scanning, completely forgetting to scan my membership since it was just checked. So another employee swooped in and voided the item and had me scan my membership…which immediately threw an error. So I had to wait for the supervisor to come clear that.
In prior visits I have had employees stand there in self-checkout scanning stuff for me or organizing it on the scale/table. That is not self-checkout. That is an open plan register with an employee.
In the small town where I live, we had until two weeks ago two small grocery stores, both owned by the same regional chain, one of which had self-checkout. It was great. And they repurposed an old Kmart building into a larger store and closed the smaller ones, and this new store also has self-checkout. But this one seems to have a parasitic infection of an employee who not only is there to be your friend but will grab stuff out of your cart and scan it for you as you’re doing it yourself. This is self-checkout! I came here explicitly to scan my own stuff! I don’t even understand this woman.
So what I really was intending to say (even before I saw your comment) is that I love self-checkout but will avoid shopping at places that insist on making it a multiplayer sport. Costco is fast becoming one of those places. Meanwhile Sam’s Club not only has unmolested self-checkout, they have Scan and Go (scan on phone while shopping and pay in the app) which is even more better and I hate that it isn’t widespread here. I have both memberships but Costco isn’t that amazing that I wouldn’t be willing to drop them for this bullshit. I don’t have the same choice with my local grocery store (it’s the only grocery store in town) so will just have to avoid that one woman.
posted by tubedogg at 12:33 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
On a separate note, self checkout is almost everywhere in Japan now
I'm in Japan right now too, and I see way more of them here than I did a year ago. So far I haven't had a problem with the weighing thing. What annoys me is, as good as I get at scanning things, I'm never going to be as fast as the checkout line (at the scanning process - the multiple machine lines do get people through pretty quickly overall)
When I go through the checkout line, it's a team of me and the checker getting items out of the cart on the belt, scanning them, and putting them in bags. At the SELF checkout, I have to do each item in series, and all myself. And then try to place them in the floppy bag on the postage-stamp receiving area, before going to the next item.
But Japan does have the bagging thing figured out in most stores (that aren't self checkout). They put the stuff right back in another basket for you and you go bag it yourself at the bagging table.
It's inevitable also, that those machines are going to start playing ads at you, like the new gas station pumps did to me the other day. Unskippable ads with sound, while I'm trying to pump gas. I think we can all agree that should be killed with fire.
posted by ctmf at 12:36 AM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm in Japan right now too, and I see way more of them here than I did a year ago. So far I haven't had a problem with the weighing thing. What annoys me is, as good as I get at scanning things, I'm never going to be as fast as the checkout line (at the scanning process - the multiple machine lines do get people through pretty quickly overall)
When I go through the checkout line, it's a team of me and the checker getting items out of the cart on the belt, scanning them, and putting them in bags. At the SELF checkout, I have to do each item in series, and all myself. And then try to place them in the floppy bag on the postage-stamp receiving area, before going to the next item.
But Japan does have the bagging thing figured out in most stores (that aren't self checkout). They put the stuff right back in another basket for you and you go bag it yourself at the bagging table.
It's inevitable also, that those machines are going to start playing ads at you, like the new gas station pumps did to me the other day. Unskippable ads with sound, while I'm trying to pump gas. I think we can all agree that should be killed with fire.
posted by ctmf at 12:36 AM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think the feature of the self-checkout machines that I despise more than any other is the gratuitous voices.
Yes, I understand that voice prompts are useful to people who can't read screens. But that's no excuse for having the machine finish every transaction by thanking the customer for shopping at Woolworths in the same kind of breathlessly eager voice register that their TV commercials use to suggest to you that your life! will! be! changed! by saving five cents on laundry soap this week.
It wouldn't be so insufferable if it just happened occasionally but it's all the machines in hell's playpen doing it, and they talk over each other, and they all sound exactly the same, and none of it means a thing. It's irritating enough as a bystanding customer, but if I were a checkout operator having to stand anywhere near that installation for hours at a stretch while being subjected to a Gitmo-grade sonic barrage from the robot invaders, I don't think my sanity would survive.
This kind of mass-produced casually thoughtless staff torment is increasingly common. The discount fuel station I favour installed a new POS setup a few years back, and whenever a customer picks up a pump nozzle out on the forecourt, all the POS stations inside play the noise of a blaring car horn. There's no way to make it stop, there's no way to turn it down, and there's no way to pick a different noise. BLAART, BLAART, BLABLAAART. It's just brutal.
If you work in embedded systems and you have any opportunity to calm this shit down, or to add some facility allowing the staff who have to work alongside it to calm it down, you'd be doing humanity a favour by taking it.
posted by flabdablet at 12:48 AM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yes, I understand that voice prompts are useful to people who can't read screens. But that's no excuse for having the machine finish every transaction by thanking the customer for shopping at Woolworths in the same kind of breathlessly eager voice register that their TV commercials use to suggest to you that your life! will! be! changed! by saving five cents on laundry soap this week.
It wouldn't be so insufferable if it just happened occasionally but it's all the machines in hell's playpen doing it, and they talk over each other, and they all sound exactly the same, and none of it means a thing. It's irritating enough as a bystanding customer, but if I were a checkout operator having to stand anywhere near that installation for hours at a stretch while being subjected to a Gitmo-grade sonic barrage from the robot invaders, I don't think my sanity would survive.
This kind of mass-produced casually thoughtless staff torment is increasingly common. The discount fuel station I favour installed a new POS setup a few years back, and whenever a customer picks up a pump nozzle out on the forecourt, all the POS stations inside play the noise of a blaring car horn. There's no way to make it stop, there's no way to turn it down, and there's no way to pick a different noise. BLAART, BLAART, BLABLAAART. It's just brutal.
If you work in embedded systems and you have any opportunity to calm this shit down, or to add some facility allowing the staff who have to work alongside it to calm it down, you'd be doing humanity a favour by taking it.
posted by flabdablet at 12:48 AM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
> I’m standing there with my shoes off, my laptop and liquids out, just waiting to grab a bin and go, while people desperately try to chug a whole liter of Fiji water in one go, begin unbuttoning their winter coats and unlacing their eighteen-hole Docs
I flew recently and noticed that, back when scanning laptops and dumping your water and taking your shoes off etc etc etc was brand spanking new there were tons of signs and instructions and such around explaining exactly what to do. And there tended to be a TSA person standing around explaining over and over to every single person in the line "shoes off, electronics out and in a separate bin, no fluids over 3 ounces," or whatever the other exact particular bullshit of the day and specific airport and specific line and specific scanner/x-ray machine was.
When I flew last month there was literally ZERO of that. No instructions whatsoever displayed or explained or yelled or anything.
(Unless you did it wrong, of course. Apparently you were just supposed to, somehow, know AUTOMATICALLY exactly what to do, what to take off or leave on or leave in the carry on or take out of it or whatever the hell else it was. But if you guessed WRONG of course they would yell at you or whatever.)
The thing is, this stuff does in fact vary. It varies over time and from place to place (especially depending on what exact equipment they happen to have for x-raying your stuff and you) and even at a recent airport, according to which exact line you happened to choose to go through. (According to the TSA person - apparently some people just knew automatically that her line had some kind of special machine that meant you didn't have to take your shoes off or electronics out or whatever it was.)
Anyway, how are you supposed to JUST KNOW THINGS?!
Like at the airport I was literally figuring out what to do just be watching what everyone else was doing. But how do they know? There is literally no sign, no instructions, nothing.
Anyway, bringing it back to the actual topic: Why does just going to get on a goddamned airplane, or picking up some milk from the store, somehow require this special esoteric knowledge that you somehow just have to pick up from somewhere, and then also is greatly facilitated if you just bend all of your behavior and habits (which clothes and shoes you prefer to wear, what specific items you prefer to take on a short trip and keep close at hand, which type of grocery bags you do or do not use) to meet the needs of our corporate masters.
Fuck that shit.
posted by flug at 1:38 AM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
I flew recently and noticed that, back when scanning laptops and dumping your water and taking your shoes off etc etc etc was brand spanking new there were tons of signs and instructions and such around explaining exactly what to do. And there tended to be a TSA person standing around explaining over and over to every single person in the line "shoes off, electronics out and in a separate bin, no fluids over 3 ounces," or whatever the other exact particular bullshit of the day and specific airport and specific line and specific scanner/x-ray machine was.
When I flew last month there was literally ZERO of that. No instructions whatsoever displayed or explained or yelled or anything.
(Unless you did it wrong, of course. Apparently you were just supposed to, somehow, know AUTOMATICALLY exactly what to do, what to take off or leave on or leave in the carry on or take out of it or whatever the hell else it was. But if you guessed WRONG of course they would yell at you or whatever.)
The thing is, this stuff does in fact vary. It varies over time and from place to place (especially depending on what exact equipment they happen to have for x-raying your stuff and you) and even at a recent airport, according to which exact line you happened to choose to go through. (According to the TSA person - apparently some people just knew automatically that her line had some kind of special machine that meant you didn't have to take your shoes off or electronics out or whatever it was.)
Anyway, how are you supposed to JUST KNOW THINGS?!
Like at the airport I was literally figuring out what to do just be watching what everyone else was doing. But how do they know? There is literally no sign, no instructions, nothing.
Anyway, bringing it back to the actual topic: Why does just going to get on a goddamned airplane, or picking up some milk from the store, somehow require this special esoteric knowledge that you somehow just have to pick up from somewhere, and then also is greatly facilitated if you just bend all of your behavior and habits (which clothes and shoes you prefer to wear, what specific items you prefer to take on a short trip and keep close at hand, which type of grocery bags you do or do not use) to meet the needs of our corporate masters.
Fuck that shit.
posted by flug at 1:38 AM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
Solo shopper - don't use self checkouts. While the cashier scans and bags, I put the trolley away so that once I have paid, I am all done. Parallel processing works much faster.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 2:10 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 2:10 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like all things under capitalism, self-checkout started as a great option that increased convenience which then inevitably became a way to squeeze higher profit margins at the cost of experience as those who would normally not choose the option were forced to do so. It's a bug for end users, but a feature for shareholders.
I've used the Amazon shop where you scan your account to get in and then you are automatically charged for everything you pick up and put in your bag. No check out process, no scanning, one attendant at the entry point, all under the loving and watchful eye ofBig Brother Bezos.
Very convenient, and utterly, utterly dystopian. 7/10, would use again.
posted by slimepuppy at 2:48 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've used the Amazon shop where you scan your account to get in and then you are automatically charged for everything you pick up and put in your bag. No check out process, no scanning, one attendant at the entry point, all under the loving and watchful eye of
Very convenient, and utterly, utterly dystopian. 7/10, would use again.
posted by slimepuppy at 2:48 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
... and while I'm shouting at clouds, here's another thing that drives me nuts about modern retail.
Next time you buy a single item - be it for cash or credit - in a little corner shop, just count the ridiculous number of keystrokes it takes for the clerk to complete this one simple transaction. Even without any loyalty card palaver, it can easily take 20 or 30 keystrokes for the till to gather all the information it now demands. In this case it's the customer's time being stolen rather than their labour, but it's still a bloody imposition.
I particularly notice this when trying to buy a drink in a pub. In my youth, there'd be a chubby middle-aged barmaid who'd address as you "love", knew all the bar's prices off by heart, was able to pour two pints from different taps simultaneously while mentally totting up each customer's bill and ring up your purchase with a single depression of the analogue till's keys. Not any more, though. Oh no.
posted by Paul Slade at 4:25 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Next time you buy a single item - be it for cash or credit - in a little corner shop, just count the ridiculous number of keystrokes it takes for the clerk to complete this one simple transaction. Even without any loyalty card palaver, it can easily take 20 or 30 keystrokes for the till to gather all the information it now demands. In this case it's the customer's time being stolen rather than their labour, but it's still a bloody imposition.
I particularly notice this when trying to buy a drink in a pub. In my youth, there'd be a chubby middle-aged barmaid who'd address as you "love", knew all the bar's prices off by heart, was able to pour two pints from different taps simultaneously while mentally totting up each customer's bill and ring up your purchase with a single depression of the analogue till's keys. Not any more, though. Oh no.
posted by Paul Slade at 4:25 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Standing awkwardly in an elevator with an attendant doesn't seem like a gigantic imposition, often one is sharing it with other riders anyway?
You mean not everyone hangs around the lobby pretending to read the directory until they can use an empty elevator?
Part of the system is the social contract, which used to include stuff about honest pay for honest work, and other quaint bygones
While that has a been true from time to time and place to place there is a reason for the trope where the local defacto baron is so often the general store owner. Operating a retail establishment requires capital and that tends to shape the people who have it.
The thing that is work for me is dealing with a human. I avoid that work for the triviality of scanning my groceries while I move them from my basket to my bag - not much different to moving my groceries from the belt to my bag.
$Deity this. Most days after dealing with people all day whether I have to deal with someone during my shopping is the determinate whether I go shopping at all. Self check out as an option greatly reduces that anxiety.
posted by Mitheral at 5:07 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
You mean not everyone hangs around the lobby pretending to read the directory until they can use an empty elevator?
Part of the system is the social contract, which used to include stuff about honest pay for honest work, and other quaint bygones
While that has a been true from time to time and place to place there is a reason for the trope where the local defacto baron is so often the general store owner. Operating a retail establishment requires capital and that tends to shape the people who have it.
The thing that is work for me is dealing with a human. I avoid that work for the triviality of scanning my groceries while I move them from my basket to my bag - not much different to moving my groceries from the belt to my bag.
$Deity this. Most days after dealing with people all day whether I have to deal with someone during my shopping is the determinate whether I go shopping at all. Self check out as an option greatly reduces that anxiety.
posted by Mitheral at 5:07 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Those of you actively sabotaging self-checkout systems by using them to justify theft on the hopes they will be removed
A second instance of something no one said...interesting.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:01 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
A second instance of something no one said...interesting.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:01 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
If you make me use self checkout, I'm stealing something.
Your scanner or scale fucked up and can’t find the item in question? That shit is going back in my cart and getting wheeled out to my car.
Fuck you, CEO, that’s the cost of the business model you chose.
A rash of shoplifting, sorry, "shrinkage," might cause them to reevaluate this policy.
Seems like they pretty much did say that. "I hate this thing, so I sabotage it by stealing" is hard to read as motivated by anything else.
posted by Dysk at 6:19 AM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Your scanner or scale fucked up and can’t find the item in question? That shit is going back in my cart and getting wheeled out to my car.
Fuck you, CEO, that’s the cost of the business model you chose.
A rash of shoplifting, sorry, "shrinkage," might cause them to reevaluate this policy.
Seems like they pretty much did say that. "I hate this thing, so I sabotage it by stealing" is hard to read as motivated by anything else.
posted by Dysk at 6:19 AM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Speaking as someone who does not shoplift - the risks seem to outweigh the benefits as long as I have a job and secure housing, for one thing - it always seems weird that people get so much more exercised over extremely petty amounts of goods theft by average or marginal individuals than over vast amounts of wage theft by powerful C-suite executives.
Maybe if there wasn't so much wage theft there wouldn't be so much shoplifting now, eh? Most people don't actually steal for the sheer thrill or because they prefer it to having a legal, stable day job.
Theft is risky, inconvenient, stressful and if done at scale can stick you with a lot of stuff you have to take more risks to turn into cash. I've known some talented shoplifters in my time, a couple of them shoplifters on anti-capitalist principle, and with one exception, they all said it stressed them out too much and either stopped or stuck with taking the occasional necessities when the budget demanded it.
Like, it is literally true that people don't steal (except marginal amounts - teens taking things, the occasional anti-social person, someone getting sick of trying to ring up their apples correctly) when they have fair, reliable access to a reasonable share of life's necessities.
When you think about it, that's really strange - we live in a society that says loudly all day that our worth is tied to the things we own, and yet most of the time people have better things to do than scheme a lot to get more things. The people who scheme a lot to get more things are the already-rich.
posted by Frowner at 6:22 AM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
Maybe if there wasn't so much wage theft there wouldn't be so much shoplifting now, eh? Most people don't actually steal for the sheer thrill or because they prefer it to having a legal, stable day job.
Theft is risky, inconvenient, stressful and if done at scale can stick you with a lot of stuff you have to take more risks to turn into cash. I've known some talented shoplifters in my time, a couple of them shoplifters on anti-capitalist principle, and with one exception, they all said it stressed them out too much and either stopped or stuck with taking the occasional necessities when the budget demanded it.
Like, it is literally true that people don't steal (except marginal amounts - teens taking things, the occasional anti-social person, someone getting sick of trying to ring up their apples correctly) when they have fair, reliable access to a reasonable share of life's necessities.
When you think about it, that's really strange - we live in a society that says loudly all day that our worth is tied to the things we own, and yet most of the time people have better things to do than scheme a lot to get more things. The people who scheme a lot to get more things are the already-rich.
posted by Frowner at 6:22 AM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
Like, it is literally true that people don't steal (except marginal amounts - teens taking things, the occasional anti-social person, someone getting sick of trying to ring up their apples correctly) when they have fair, reliable access to a reasonable share of life's necessities.
Unless you believe the self-reports in this thread, where it seems like some people will steal if they're mildly inconvenienced.
(And I feel much more strongly about wage theft, but it's not the topic of this thread. Class A whataboutism.)
posted by Dysk at 6:24 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Unless you believe the self-reports in this thread, where it seems like some people will steal if they're mildly inconvenienced.
(And I feel much more strongly about wage theft, but it's not the topic of this thread. Class A whataboutism.)
posted by Dysk at 6:24 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also, "I tried to ring these apples up right and they weren't in the system and it was taking forever so I rang them up as Red Delicious" does not really seem like stealing as people usually mean it.
posted by Frowner at 6:24 AM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 6:24 AM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Seems like they pretty much did say that. "I hate this thing, so I sabotage it by stealing" is hard to read as motivated by anything else.
You still invented a reason, "hate."
If you make me use self checkout, I'm stealing something.
Ok, that one might be I don't want to use it. That's the only one.
Your scanner or scale fucked up and can’t find the item in question? That shit is going back in my cart and getting wheeled out to my car.
That's taking advantage of a mistake.
Fuck you, CEO, that’s the cost of the business model you chose.
Normal CEO hate.
A rash of shoplifting, sorry, "shrinkage," might cause them to reevaluate this policy.
This person explicitly said they don't steal.
So it does sound like you're stretching.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:29 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
You still invented a reason, "hate."
If you make me use self checkout, I'm stealing something.
Ok, that one might be I don't want to use it. That's the only one.
Your scanner or scale fucked up and can’t find the item in question? That shit is going back in my cart and getting wheeled out to my car.
That's taking advantage of a mistake.
Fuck you, CEO, that’s the cost of the business model you chose.
Normal CEO hate.
A rash of shoplifting, sorry, "shrinkage," might cause them to reevaluate this policy.
This person explicitly said they don't steal.
So it does sound like you're stretching.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:29 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
So it does sound like you're stretching.
If you ignore the one you concede, sure.
posted by Dysk at 6:31 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
If you ignore the one you concede, sure.
posted by Dysk at 6:31 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
(And the "I hate them" sentiment may not be in the same sentence as the bits about stealing, but they sure are in the same comments. Your view also relies on the narrowest, most literal possible readings.)
posted by Dysk at 6:34 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 6:34 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
My reasoning is:
1. We can tell from existing data that shoplifting shrinkage is not that significant even though there's a lot of propaganda around it. And that's including people who steal high-dollar items at scale.
2. Given that we know that this type of theft isn't economically significant, I think we can take it with a grain of salt when people say, "oh, I totally shoplift all the time" by which they mean "I got upset at the badly designed system and willfully neglected to ring up two of my cans of tuna".
If there's another thing I know from hanging out around the middle class left, it's that we all exaggerate our rule-breaking, except for the people who break rules a lot since they tend to be canny enough not to talk about it. If there's anyone on here who routinely shoplifts large volumes, my bet is that they are keeping their typing fingers shut.
posted by Frowner at 6:34 AM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
1. We can tell from existing data that shoplifting shrinkage is not that significant even though there's a lot of propaganda around it. And that's including people who steal high-dollar items at scale.
2. Given that we know that this type of theft isn't economically significant, I think we can take it with a grain of salt when people say, "oh, I totally shoplift all the time" by which they mean "I got upset at the badly designed system and willfully neglected to ring up two of my cans of tuna".
If there's another thing I know from hanging out around the middle class left, it's that we all exaggerate our rule-breaking, except for the people who break rules a lot since they tend to be canny enough not to talk about it. If there's anyone on here who routinely shoplifts large volumes, my bet is that they are keeping their typing fingers shut.
posted by Frowner at 6:34 AM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
Those of you actively sabotaging self-checkout systems by using them to justify theft on the hopes they will be removed: you are being actively ableist in the name of self-serving pettiness. It is frankly disgusting.
So only one person you were shaming, ok.
Your view also relies on the narrowest, most literal possible readings.)
So does yours....I think we sorted it.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:35 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
So only one person you were shaming, ok.
Your view also relies on the narrowest, most literal possible readings.)
So does yours....I think we sorted it.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:35 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
So only one person you were shaming, ok.
Only one person who said as much. The comment was addressed to all readers.
posted by Dysk at 6:42 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Only one person who said as much. The comment was addressed to all readers.
posted by Dysk at 6:42 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't really get it but - agree to disagree on the intent stated/unstated by various posters.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:22 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:22 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can't say I'm the slightest bit surprised by that.
But you sound like you are, because when informed that "skilled" vs. "unskilled" labor are common terms in the US, you infer value judgements from the people explaining that to you. It's not a value judgment nor an endorsement of the way language is used, to explain its current common usage. It's simply explaining something you did not understand as an Australian, that those terms have formal meaning in the US, in conversations about labor, wages, compensation, etc. Idealistic labor market folks can continue to rage, but these are common terms currently used with specific meaning in the US, to imperfectly describe our labor market. (That labor is a market is problematic to me, but I'm not going to use this space to posture and lecture people about values they should have because--by using commonly accepted terminology in an appropriate way--anyone who makes a distinction between skilled and unskilled labor is obviously anti-labor and inhumane in their view of the people who do shift work or something.)
Also:
I'd like anyone in this thread to sit down in my local Lidl or Aldi and try to be a tenth as fast as those people who know every single produce and bakery code by heart, to the point they never use the item picker.
OK, if I had the time I'd be happy to take that wager because I'm confident I could become extremely fast and competent in a matter of weeks. Whereas it took decades for me to learn and develop my current professional expertise, and if I decided today to go be an electrician, I couldn't learn and master that in a matter of weeks. So yes, I think there's a difference.
None of that makes any sort of negative judgment about the value and dignity of any work--I believe that if work needs doing, then it's important work. But wages and salaries differ enormously, often for bullshit reasons but often for pretty understandable reasons, and part of the vocabulary we have (however imperfect) to describe that contains the terms 'unskilled' and 'skilled' labor. So those are terms we must contend with, and should try to use accurately in a conversation like this without treating the people who use those terms as synecdoche or scapegoat for society's ills.
Or we could just ignore the obvious, that a comment is pointing out the actual, current definition of terms, and instead lecture the commenter about their inferred values and worldview and how using language as it's currently understood by society makes you guilty by implication of all the ills of society or something...I don't know, the responses to a few mild comments observing the common usage of basic terms about labor and labor markets is really vexing, it's very Metafilter so I don't know why it bothers me enough to say all this, but this part of this thread has been kind of ridiculous in its intentional misunderstandings and talking past people. Which I suppose I'm furthering by even saying this. But for real, this kind of purist, posturing stance from several commenters, that seem to assume the worst or dumbest of those to whom they are responding--and the shitty ways they skew conversation--is making me come here less and less...and with regard to labor and jobs and treatment of workers, I'm pretty confident everyone in this thread is on the same side. So why the constant presumption/lecturing?
posted by LooseFilter at 7:22 AM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
But you sound like you are, because when informed that "skilled" vs. "unskilled" labor are common terms in the US, you infer value judgements from the people explaining that to you. It's not a value judgment nor an endorsement of the way language is used, to explain its current common usage. It's simply explaining something you did not understand as an Australian, that those terms have formal meaning in the US, in conversations about labor, wages, compensation, etc. Idealistic labor market folks can continue to rage, but these are common terms currently used with specific meaning in the US, to imperfectly describe our labor market. (That labor is a market is problematic to me, but I'm not going to use this space to posture and lecture people about values they should have because--by using commonly accepted terminology in an appropriate way--anyone who makes a distinction between skilled and unskilled labor is obviously anti-labor and inhumane in their view of the people who do shift work or something.)
Also:
I'd like anyone in this thread to sit down in my local Lidl or Aldi and try to be a tenth as fast as those people who know every single produce and bakery code by heart, to the point they never use the item picker.
OK, if I had the time I'd be happy to take that wager because I'm confident I could become extremely fast and competent in a matter of weeks. Whereas it took decades for me to learn and develop my current professional expertise, and if I decided today to go be an electrician, I couldn't learn and master that in a matter of weeks. So yes, I think there's a difference.
None of that makes any sort of negative judgment about the value and dignity of any work--I believe that if work needs doing, then it's important work. But wages and salaries differ enormously, often for bullshit reasons but often for pretty understandable reasons, and part of the vocabulary we have (however imperfect) to describe that contains the terms 'unskilled' and 'skilled' labor. So those are terms we must contend with, and should try to use accurately in a conversation like this without treating the people who use those terms as synecdoche or scapegoat for society's ills.
Or we could just ignore the obvious, that a comment is pointing out the actual, current definition of terms, and instead lecture the commenter about their inferred values and worldview and how using language as it's currently understood by society makes you guilty by implication of all the ills of society or something...I don't know, the responses to a few mild comments observing the common usage of basic terms about labor and labor markets is really vexing, it's very Metafilter so I don't know why it bothers me enough to say all this, but this part of this thread has been kind of ridiculous in its intentional misunderstandings and talking past people. Which I suppose I'm furthering by even saying this. But for real, this kind of purist, posturing stance from several commenters, that seem to assume the worst or dumbest of those to whom they are responding--and the shitty ways they skew conversation--is making me come here less and less...and with regard to labor and jobs and treatment of workers, I'm pretty confident everyone in this thread is on the same side. So why the constant presumption/lecturing?
posted by LooseFilter at 7:22 AM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm just a girl, standing in front of a self-checkout, screaming that there's no unexpected item in the bagging area.Via 40 Hilarious Tweets About Self-Checkout
@AbbyHasIssues, 5:07 PM · Jul 19, 2020
posted by kirkaracha at 8:03 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like at the airport I was literally figuring out what to do just be watching what everyone else was doing. But how do they know?
It’s a fair question, and I often reflect on the gap between the way the world seems to be in theory and the way it is in practice. With airlines in particular: I used to travel a fair bit for work and I often pondered the illumination of the “no smoking” sign above each seat during takeoff and landing. Next year it will be thirty years since the end of smoking on domestic flights in this country, but the signs endure.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:11 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
It’s a fair question, and I often reflect on the gap between the way the world seems to be in theory and the way it is in practice. With airlines in particular: I used to travel a fair bit for work and I often pondered the illumination of the “no smoking” sign above each seat during takeoff and landing. Next year it will be thirty years since the end of smoking on domestic flights in this country, but the signs endure.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:11 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Little derail here, I do have opinions on self checkout, but they come from a place of social anxiety.
I used to be bothered by restroom attendants at upscale places judging my ruination skills and expecting a tip for handing me a towel until a more worldly friend taught me that, at least in the real upscale places, they are strategically placed valets that can get you almost anything discreetly, for a price.
Cigarettes, condoms, all kinds of OTC medications, some non OTC medications, fetch something from the car, send a message to the bar or kitchen, fix minor sewing issues, lend you a phone to make calls or send messages without a trace.
posted by Dr. Curare at 8:30 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
I used to be bothered by restroom attendants at upscale places judging my ruination skills and expecting a tip for handing me a towel until a more worldly friend taught me that, at least in the real upscale places, they are strategically placed valets that can get you almost anything discreetly, for a price.
Cigarettes, condoms, all kinds of OTC medications, some non OTC medications, fetch something from the car, send a message to the bar or kitchen, fix minor sewing issues, lend you a phone to make calls or send messages without a trace.
posted by Dr. Curare at 8:30 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
OK, if I had the time I'd be happy to take that wager because I'm confident I could become extremely fast and competent in a matter of weeks. Whereas it took decades for me to learn and develop my current professional expertise, and if I decided today to go be an electrician, I couldn't learn and master that in a matter of weeks.
Respectfully, this paragraph tells me you don’t have a true understanding of the skill required to do this job. I don’t have time to detail it for you here and I’m not trying to be fighty, but I just want to let you know that different people think differently than you about this and for really good legitimate, non-lecturing reasons. You assume your preferred words and word usage are just somehow neutral and above comment but , imo, other people are just piping up to remind you (and the rest of us) that that they think differently. But then you take it an extra step further by saying somehow folks are wrong for disagreeing with you which kind of demonstrates an obliviousness to the power dynamics underlying this whole part of the thread. You’re like unconsciously demanding that others go along with your preferred worldview (because it’s the mainstream view that “we must contend with”) but then claim they are demanding that same thing from you when all they’re doing is pointing out a disagreement exists.
posted by flamk at 8:33 AM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
Respectfully, this paragraph tells me you don’t have a true understanding of the skill required to do this job. I don’t have time to detail it for you here and I’m not trying to be fighty, but I just want to let you know that different people think differently than you about this and for really good legitimate, non-lecturing reasons. You assume your preferred words and word usage are just somehow neutral and above comment but , imo, other people are just piping up to remind you (and the rest of us) that that they think differently. But then you take it an extra step further by saying somehow folks are wrong for disagreeing with you which kind of demonstrates an obliviousness to the power dynamics underlying this whole part of the thread. You’re like unconsciously demanding that others go along with your preferred worldview (because it’s the mainstream view that “we must contend with”) but then claim they are demanding that same thing from you when all they’re doing is pointing out a disagreement exists.
posted by flamk at 8:33 AM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
crappy old resistive touchscreen technology
You mean the screens I could *actually use* while having long fingernails? The ones that were then all replaced over the span of about two years? The ones where I could sign my name without having to use the stupid pen, using one of my built-in uv-setting-resin styli? Those ones?
No, I'm not bitter.
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:43 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
You mean the screens I could *actually use* while having long fingernails? The ones that were then all replaced over the span of about two years? The ones where I could sign my name without having to use the stupid pen, using one of my built-in uv-setting-resin styli? Those ones?
No, I'm not bitter.
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:43 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
the actual, current definition of terms
I'm not an economist or one of the masters in charge of the economy, so I feel no particular need to use a different definition of "skilled" just because it's been stuck in front of a dirty word like "labor".
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:46 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not an economist or one of the masters in charge of the economy, so I feel no particular need to use a different definition of "skilled" just because it's been stuck in front of a dirty word like "labor".
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:46 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
some non OTC medications
I believe the toilet attendants in some modern nightclubs offer a similar service.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:52 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
I believe the toilet attendants in some modern nightclubs offer a similar service.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:52 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
restroom attendants at upscale places judging my ruination skills
Paging Mr Conover. Mr Conover to the white courtesy telephone, please.
posted by flabdablet at 8:56 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Paging Mr Conover. Mr Conover to the white courtesy telephone, please.
posted by flabdablet at 8:56 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Self-checkout machines are necessary because the education of the youth of amerika is declining in more than one way. The other day I was at the grocery store and the checker was unable to identify a portabello mushroom. And no, she wasn't new...and to make matters worse the checker next to her didn't know either. (more inside)
posted by charred husk at 9:29 AM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by charred husk at 9:29 AM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
FWIW I prefer queuing for a person at the checkout. I worry too much about botching something at automated checkout systems but I can see plenty of people enjoy/prefer using them.
But mostly I get 95% of my groceries delivered to my door every 3-4 weeks. Minimises my idle isle wandering and impulse purchases. Downside is poorer selection of goods.
posted by phigmov at 10:02 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
But mostly I get 95% of my groceries delivered to my door every 3-4 weeks. Minimises my idle isle wandering and impulse purchases. Downside is poorer selection of goods.
posted by phigmov at 10:02 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
I keep going back to JHarris' comment about gas stations, and I'm really torn. I used to work at a full-service station, and it was terrible, I hated it worse than any job I've ever worked; but I'm wondering how much of that service was actually valuable. Pumping your own gas is so much faster and more convenient...unless you have mobility trouble, or you're dressed for something important, or (god forbid) you have to go inside and pay. There were a ton of reasons why having someone else do it for you was useful. But the additional services--like, checking your oil. Do most cars really have to have their oil checked? Or do you just go to the quick-change place when the car tells you to? It did seem like having it checked there at the station--where they could top you up with a quart if you needed it--was convenient, but does it really make life worse, not having that? But if it was a valuable service, then why weren't the customers nicer?
And that brings me back around to cashiers, because while a lot of us on the thread seem to be very "there is dignity even in the lowliest job" and "punching in those numbers is a real skill," you do not get treated as a real human being by an enormous number of customers you encounter, and that's kinda deadening. Like, if it's not bad enough that your job sees you as a replaceable asset, then customers treat you like an active impediment to their joie-de-vivre.
In sum: Jobs are bad, customers are bad, everything's bad, and nobody's going to be happy until we're all replaced by robot shoppers and robot cashiers and robot produce.
posted by mittens at 10:07 AM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
And that brings me back around to cashiers, because while a lot of us on the thread seem to be very "there is dignity even in the lowliest job" and "punching in those numbers is a real skill," you do not get treated as a real human being by an enormous number of customers you encounter, and that's kinda deadening. Like, if it's not bad enough that your job sees you as a replaceable asset, then customers treat you like an active impediment to their joie-de-vivre.
In sum: Jobs are bad, customers are bad, everything's bad, and nobody's going to be happy until we're all replaced by robot shoppers and robot cashiers and robot produce.
posted by mittens at 10:07 AM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
Like all things under capitalism, self-checkout started as a great option that increased convenience...
posted by slimepuppy
I remain unconvinced.
posted by Pouteria at 10:55 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by slimepuppy
I remain unconvinced.
posted by Pouteria at 10:55 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Do most cars really have to have their oil checked?
Yes, because most oil leaks start slow, and checking the oil level every few times you fuel up can catch a loss of oil well before it starts to damage your engine.
Or do you just go to the quick-change place when the car tells you to?
If the car is telling you to change your oil, it's doing that for one of two reasons: (a) the engine control computer has worked out that it's been X miles since your last oil change, so it's now time for another one or (b) enough oil has leaked out of your engine to cause a detectable loss of oil pressure, which means that not only have you been driving with inadequate lubrication for the last several thousand miles, thereby putting on the equivalent of thousands of extra miles of wear on your engine, but also that if you don't top up pretty damn quick then there's a genuine risk it will seize up entirely and stop the car dead in its tracks.
Regularly checking your oil level is really the only reliable way to avoid case (b).
if it was a valuable service, then why weren't the customers nicer?
There are a lot of people who think of themselves as just better than those who work lower-paid jobs than they do, and feel entitled to treat those they perceive as "beneath" them like shit. It's my personal belief that this kind of anti-egalitarian tendency is another outgrowth of the same social attitudes that define some jobs as inherently "unskilled" on the spurious basis that what the employer requires of the employee if they're to keep having their pittance tossed to them is easy to explain without specialist vocabulary.
"Keep smiling as you tongue their unwashed assholes and then thank them for the opportunity" is very easy to explain. Fucking hard to keep on doing, though.
posted by flabdablet at 10:55 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yes, because most oil leaks start slow, and checking the oil level every few times you fuel up can catch a loss of oil well before it starts to damage your engine.
Or do you just go to the quick-change place when the car tells you to?
If the car is telling you to change your oil, it's doing that for one of two reasons: (a) the engine control computer has worked out that it's been X miles since your last oil change, so it's now time for another one or (b) enough oil has leaked out of your engine to cause a detectable loss of oil pressure, which means that not only have you been driving with inadequate lubrication for the last several thousand miles, thereby putting on the equivalent of thousands of extra miles of wear on your engine, but also that if you don't top up pretty damn quick then there's a genuine risk it will seize up entirely and stop the car dead in its tracks.
Regularly checking your oil level is really the only reliable way to avoid case (b).
if it was a valuable service, then why weren't the customers nicer?
There are a lot of people who think of themselves as just better than those who work lower-paid jobs than they do, and feel entitled to treat those they perceive as "beneath" them like shit. It's my personal belief that this kind of anti-egalitarian tendency is another outgrowth of the same social attitudes that define some jobs as inherently "unskilled" on the spurious basis that what the employer requires of the employee if they're to keep having their pittance tossed to them is easy to explain without specialist vocabulary.
"Keep smiling as you tongue their unwashed assholes and then thank them for the opportunity" is very easy to explain. Fucking hard to keep on doing, though.
posted by flabdablet at 10:55 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
(Side note: you can just get yer oil changed every x miles/km as recommended in your vehicle’s manual. It’s good to have regular vehicle check-ups, too - some folks I know can do this themselves, but for the rest of us, this means continuing scheduled maintenance appointments similar to the sort that are required for warranty on a new car (but usually cheaper at a non-dealership shop). If you live in a place where inspections are still required annually, that’s a good time to also have the oil change and other regular maintenance tasks done (not usually part of an inspection!), provided you don’t drive that much. For those of us who live in relevant climates, folding this in to the bi-annual winter/summer tire change appointment is also convenient. You don’t have to wait for the check engine light to come on before taking your vehicle in for maintenance.)
posted by eviemath at 12:21 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 12:21 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
you can just get yer oil changed every x miles/km as recommended in your vehicle’s manual
You could, but you’d most likely be doing it way more often than necessary because, just like the sticker they give you after the change, it’s predicated on a business model, not the reality of how long the oil lasts.
posted by tubedogg at 12:26 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
You could, but you’d most likely be doing it way more often than necessary because, just like the sticker they give you after the change, it’s predicated on a business model, not the reality of how long the oil lasts.
posted by tubedogg at 12:26 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Dysk: The "vaunted free market" is currently giving us supermarkets that have both staffed and self-service checkouts most often, if not almost universally. It seems to be how it's working.
You're looking at the current situation, I'm talking about where it's going: the direction that grocery counter clerks, service stations and elevators went. But even so, it's already become difficult to shop for groceries in my town and get a staffed checkout counter. There's six grocery stores in my town, two of them are Winn-Dixies and two are flavors of Walmart. I haven't gone to every one of them lately, but of the four I have, all of them have moved to mostly self-checkout, and all of them never have more than two staffed checkout lines open at once now, which are thus regularly slammed and require waiting in a long line to use. Even now, I don't see the variety you claim; they reduced staffed checkouts, overloading them, to drive people to the self-serve option.
It's starting to feel like you're thread-sitting? You might be too invested in this? I can definitely relate to the social anxiety, but there's room for a variety of valid opinion here.
posted by JHarris at 12:34 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
You're looking at the current situation, I'm talking about where it's going: the direction that grocery counter clerks, service stations and elevators went. But even so, it's already become difficult to shop for groceries in my town and get a staffed checkout counter. There's six grocery stores in my town, two of them are Winn-Dixies and two are flavors of Walmart. I haven't gone to every one of them lately, but of the four I have, all of them have moved to mostly self-checkout, and all of them never have more than two staffed checkout lines open at once now, which are thus regularly slammed and require waiting in a long line to use. Even now, I don't see the variety you claim; they reduced staffed checkouts, overloading them, to drive people to the self-serve option.
It's starting to feel like you're thread-sitting? You might be too invested in this? I can definitely relate to the social anxiety, but there's room for a variety of valid opinion here.
posted by JHarris at 12:34 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
There are more and more robot self checkout devices that do not accept cash. SOON WE WILL NEED (some sort of the Mark of the Beast) TO BUY FOOD! Corporate cost cutting. Costs money to service the cash robots, and pay people to handle the cash...
"If we don't deal with this, now...
Pretty soon little, Gamble? here, won't be able to get 5 million for his grandchildren..."
posted by Windopaene at 12:51 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
"If we don't deal with this, now...
Pretty soon little, Gamble? here, won't be able to get 5 million for his grandchildren..."
posted by Windopaene at 12:51 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Late to this, but “sabotage self-service so the robots are removed” is not at all my motivation.
My motivation is that human jobs are not displaced. When a corporation wants to deploy robots IN ADDITION to humans with jobs, that’s fine. I use the humans.
If someone prefers self-checkout? You don’t need my approval, but you have it. Do what’s best for you.
However, if some spreadsheet jockey ELIMINATES humans in favor of robots? My previously articulated stance applies.
posted by FallibleHuman at 2:25 PM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
My motivation is that human jobs are not displaced. When a corporation wants to deploy robots IN ADDITION to humans with jobs, that’s fine. I use the humans.
If someone prefers self-checkout? You don’t need my approval, but you have it. Do what’s best for you.
However, if some spreadsheet jockey ELIMINATES humans in favor of robots? My previously articulated stance applies.
posted by FallibleHuman at 2:25 PM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
they reduced staffed checkouts, overloading them, to drive people to the self-serve option.
That seems to be the tactic here.
And they are making them card only. Very insidious.
posted by Pouteria at 2:33 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
That seems to be the tactic here.
And they are making them card only. Very insidious.
posted by Pouteria at 2:33 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Regularly checking your oil level is really the only reliable way to avoid
You'll be pleased to learn many cars, even economy models, have an oil level sensor that can detect a low oil situation long before it becomes significant enough to damage the engine.
(And modern cars have engineered out the need to ever replace or top up engine oil, due to not containing one)
posted by grahamparks at 2:42 PM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
You'll be pleased to learn many cars, even economy models, have an oil level sensor that can detect a low oil situation long before it becomes significant enough to damage the engine.
(And modern cars have engineered out the need to ever replace or top up engine oil, due to not containing one)
posted by grahamparks at 2:42 PM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
The luddites smashing the looms didn't stop the garment industry from adopting them, it just got the luddites arrested.
The folks stealing on principle are equally on the wrong side of history here.
posted by CynicalKnight at 3:27 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
The folks stealing on principle are equally on the wrong side of history here.
posted by CynicalKnight at 3:27 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Bwahaha! That one got me, CynicalKnight. The drama in here.
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:34 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:34 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
I had no idea that there was this epidemic of mefites stealing things from self-checkout! Those poor... uh...
Anyway, I'm sure they are the reason our betters can't let us have nice things.
posted by tigrrrlily at 3:36 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Anyway, I'm sure they are the reason our betters can't let us have nice things.
posted by tigrrrlily at 3:36 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
often pondered the illumination of the “no smoking” sign above each seat during takeoff and landing. Next year it will be thirty years since the end of smoking on domestic flights in this country, but the signs endure.
Most airliners built in the last few years don't have the illuminated signs, but do have a little non-illuminated label where they used to be. I've long pondered the same thing and it's good to see the aircraft manufacturers have caught up.
Pumping your own gas is so much faster and more convenient...unless you have mobility trouble, or you're dressed for something important, or (god forbid) you have to go inside and pay. There were a ton of reasons why having someone else do it for you was useful. But the additional services--like, checking your oil. Do most cars really have to have their oil checked? Or do you just go to the quick-change place when the car tells you to? It did seem like having it checked there at the station--where they could top you up with a quart if you needed it--was convenient, but does it really make life worse, not having that?
Here in Australia, it's normal to go inside and pay. How else can they tempt you with all the shit they sell in there now?
Checking your oil isn't a thing that's needed on modern cars. Partly because they often have sensors to tell you if the oil level is getting low, but modern engines just don't burn/leak much oil anymore. It's now pretty normal that you wouldn't need to add oil to an engine between oil changes and, if you do, something is wrong. If you failed to check and top up your oil regularly 30 years ago, you were courting disaster every time you started the engine. Of course, if disaster struck, you could rebuild the engine on a Saturday arvo in your garage with a couple of sockets and an adjustable spanner. Now, it would take you a few Saturdays just to remove all the crap that's covering the engine a foot deep. It's fortunate that cars don't leak/burn oil like they used to, given most engines can't be rebuilt and, even if they can, the cost exceeds the value of the car in most instances.
posted by dg at 5:14 PM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Most airliners built in the last few years don't have the illuminated signs, but do have a little non-illuminated label where they used to be. I've long pondered the same thing and it's good to see the aircraft manufacturers have caught up.
Pumping your own gas is so much faster and more convenient...unless you have mobility trouble, or you're dressed for something important, or (god forbid) you have to go inside and pay. There were a ton of reasons why having someone else do it for you was useful. But the additional services--like, checking your oil. Do most cars really have to have their oil checked? Or do you just go to the quick-change place when the car tells you to? It did seem like having it checked there at the station--where they could top you up with a quart if you needed it--was convenient, but does it really make life worse, not having that?
Here in Australia, it's normal to go inside and pay. How else can they tempt you with all the shit they sell in there now?
Checking your oil isn't a thing that's needed on modern cars. Partly because they often have sensors to tell you if the oil level is getting low, but modern engines just don't burn/leak much oil anymore. It's now pretty normal that you wouldn't need to add oil to an engine between oil changes and, if you do, something is wrong. If you failed to check and top up your oil regularly 30 years ago, you were courting disaster every time you started the engine. Of course, if disaster struck, you could rebuild the engine on a Saturday arvo in your garage with a couple of sockets and an adjustable spanner. Now, it would take you a few Saturdays just to remove all the crap that's covering the engine a foot deep. It's fortunate that cars don't leak/burn oil like they used to, given most engines can't be rebuilt and, even if they can, the cost exceeds the value of the car in most instances.
posted by dg at 5:14 PM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’m sorry but no, the cashier is not skilled labor. You can be very skilled as a cashier, but it is not a skilled position. Just about anyone on the street could be hired as a cashier. You don’t need prior experience, you don’t need a high school diploma, you don’t need any outside training before you can be hired for the position. That doesn’t mean it’s ok to treat these laborers as subhuman.
Being skilled at your job and having a skilled job are two different things. You can be the best ditch digger in the world, but that’s doesn’t make ditch digging a skilled job (I actually have no idea how modern ditch digging is done, probably with machinery that requires certifications, which would make it a skilled job)
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:36 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Being skilled at your job and having a skilled job are two different things. You can be the best ditch digger in the world, but that’s doesn’t make ditch digging a skilled job (I actually have no idea how modern ditch digging is done, probably with machinery that requires certifications, which would make it a skilled job)
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:36 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just about anyone on the street could be hired as a cashier. You don’t need prior experience, you don’t need a high school diploma, you don’t need any outside training before you can be hired for the position
And yet none of those things speak to whether or not being a cashier is skilled or not.
posted by flamk at 6:16 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
And yet none of those things speak to whether or not being a cashier is skilled or not.
posted by flamk at 6:16 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
I love self-checkout. My wife hates it.
I hate having to interact with a person at the register.
I will always choose the self-checkout unless the line isn't manageable.
I have never even attempted to cheat the machine with putting the wrong produce code in or whatever. I just want to scan my shit and leave.
I have worked at a register, but never at a grocery store. I do agree that experience is helpful and self-checkout isn't for everyone.
I have witnessed the most cringe moments ever standing in line at a self-checkout. To the level of entertaining the idea that I was on Candid Camera.
I think that sometimes a person has 4 items and sees a long line at the regular registers and say "Let's try this thing."
I assume it is the first and last time.
Anyway, self-checkout improves my shopping experience generally. It isn't for everyone. I like the option.
posted by toddforbid at 7:06 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
I hate having to interact with a person at the register.
I will always choose the self-checkout unless the line isn't manageable.
I have never even attempted to cheat the machine with putting the wrong produce code in or whatever. I just want to scan my shit and leave.
I have worked at a register, but never at a grocery store. I do agree that experience is helpful and self-checkout isn't for everyone.
I have witnessed the most cringe moments ever standing in line at a self-checkout. To the level of entertaining the idea that I was on Candid Camera.
I think that sometimes a person has 4 items and sees a long line at the regular registers and say "Let's try this thing."
I assume it is the first and last time.
Anyway, self-checkout improves my shopping experience generally. It isn't for everyone. I like the option.
posted by toddforbid at 7:06 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
The grocery stores here (Toronto) all expect you to bag your own groceries so it makes the whole enterprise a bit of a team-based exercise. I load up the items on the conveyor based on how I want to get them when I'm bagging while I'm waiting for the person in front of me. The cashier then scans the items while I bag them in the way that I like. There's rarely much lag between when they're finished scanning and I'm finished bagging so I feel like it makes things faster for everyone.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:08 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:08 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
I will say this for self-checkout at Target last night: I managed to use it successfully and avoid The Bagging Issue, which I had to do because I have laryngitis and was unable to really answer any questions the cashier would have inevitably asked of me. Also I was only buying three items, none of which I put into a bag because most of them were too big to bag.
That said, still hate it on principle most of the time, and I generally think that someone who's spent a length of time scanning stuff and managing a cash register would have more of a clue than me who hardly ever does it. I actually had a pretty entertaining time the previous time I went to the grocery store and had the ability to chat while scanning was happening, as the cashiers at that store like it when you compliment their nails. I'm not terribly social at the register, but if I have to buy 20 items, it'll sure be faster if a pro does it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:10 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
That said, still hate it on principle most of the time, and I generally think that someone who's spent a length of time scanning stuff and managing a cash register would have more of a clue than me who hardly ever does it. I actually had a pretty entertaining time the previous time I went to the grocery store and had the ability to chat while scanning was happening, as the cashiers at that store like it when you compliment their nails. I'm not terribly social at the register, but if I have to buy 20 items, it'll sure be faster if a pro does it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:10 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
And yet none of those things speak to whether or not being a cashier is skilled or not.
Agreed! But it does mean that the position is considered unskilled labor. I'll quote myself again here just in case you missed it:
Being skilled at your job and having a skilled job are two different things
posted by LizBoBiz at 7:16 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Agreed! But it does mean that the position is considered unskilled labor. I'll quote myself again here just in case you missed it:
Being skilled at your job and having a skilled job are two different things
posted by LizBoBiz at 7:16 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Being skilled at your job and having a skilled job are two different things
That exact confusion is a marker of how crappy a term "unskilled job" is. It really means "diploma/credential not needed," not whether or not the work requires skill and/or prior experience. The term is capturing a useful distinction, but it is poorly worded and is needlessly pejorative.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:05 PM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
That exact confusion is a marker of how crappy a term "unskilled job" is. It really means "diploma/credential not needed," not whether or not the work requires skill and/or prior experience. The term is capturing a useful distinction, but it is poorly worded and is needlessly pejorative.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:05 PM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm pretty sure that last one is a feature, Dip Flash.
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:08 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:08 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
The grocery stores here (Toronto) all expect you to bag your own groceries so it makes the whole enterprise a bit of a team-based exercise. I load up the items on the conveyor based on how I want to get them when I'm bagging while I'm waiting for the person in front of me.
Same here and I do the same thing. I'm often reminded of one of my first jobs when I was still at high school - bagging groceries and/or pushing people's trolley out to their car and loading them in the boot. How times have changed! In the spirit of 'you young-uns have it too easy', we used to have to bag groceries into paper bags and do so so that weight was evenly distributed between bags, heavier items were on the bottom and the bag was full but not over-stuffed. The manager used to watch baggers and expected that every bag would be full, but the sides of the bag were still perfectly straight or you got told off in front of everyone.
posted by dg at 8:29 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Same here and I do the same thing. I'm often reminded of one of my first jobs when I was still at high school - bagging groceries and/or pushing people's trolley out to their car and loading them in the boot. How times have changed! In the spirit of 'you young-uns have it too easy', we used to have to bag groceries into paper bags and do so so that weight was evenly distributed between bags, heavier items were on the bottom and the bag was full but not over-stuffed. The manager used to watch baggers and expected that every bag would be full, but the sides of the bag were still perfectly straight or you got told off in front of everyone.
posted by dg at 8:29 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Being skilled at your job and having a skilled job are two different things
Indeed they are. The first has actual real-world referents and the second does not.
The idea of a "skilled job" implies that there must exist, by contrast, unskilled jobs; but there is no job that requires no skills in order to be done to a standard worth paying for. Not even when the only immediately obvious skill involved is showing up.
"Skilled job" is an imaginary category created to provide a figleaf of justification for shit wages and shit working conditions for the "unskilled workers" it defines into existence by implication, and the ongoing use of that phrase to describe the kinds of job it's frequently used to describe plays into perpetuating that. The term is indefensible, no less so for being in common use. I strongly recommend avoiding it.
posted by flabdablet at 11:29 PM on November 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
Indeed they are. The first has actual real-world referents and the second does not.
The idea of a "skilled job" implies that there must exist, by contrast, unskilled jobs; but there is no job that requires no skills in order to be done to a standard worth paying for. Not even when the only immediately obvious skill involved is showing up.
"Skilled job" is an imaginary category created to provide a figleaf of justification for shit wages and shit working conditions for the "unskilled workers" it defines into existence by implication, and the ongoing use of that phrase to describe the kinds of job it's frequently used to describe plays into perpetuating that. The term is indefensible, no less so for being in common use. I strongly recommend avoiding it.
posted by flabdablet at 11:29 PM on November 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
It really means "diploma/credential not needed," not whether or not the work requires skill and/or prior experience.
No, it's a question of whether the skills are required for the job. As someone who has worked tills, you can absolutely be skilled at it. Not only is everyone hired with an expectation that you don't have that skill yet, nobody gets fired if they never develop it. It's unskilled work not in the sense that you can't be skilled at it, but in the sense that you don't have to be.
Call it something else if you want - that's the distinction in practice.
posted by Dysk at 12:52 AM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
No, it's a question of whether the skills are required for the job. As someone who has worked tills, you can absolutely be skilled at it. Not only is everyone hired with an expectation that you don't have that skill yet, nobody gets fired if they never develop it. It's unskilled work not in the sense that you can't be skilled at it, but in the sense that you don't have to be.
Call it something else if you want - that's the distinction in practice.
posted by Dysk at 12:52 AM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
nobody gets fired if they never develop it.
This is so contrary to my experience as to make me doubt my understanding of the words involved.
posted by Not A Thing at 3:41 AM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is so contrary to my experience as to make me doubt my understanding of the words involved.
posted by Not A Thing at 3:41 AM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
It likely varies by place, but I have worked in a few supermarkets in the UK, and as long as you follow the disciplinary rules, you can be as useful as a chocolate teapot and stick around for years.
posted by Dysk at 3:44 AM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 3:44 AM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
(I imagine e.g. Aldi have a different policy on the same, likely much stricter about hitting KPIs on throughput, but they are operationally very different in lots of ways to the 'traditional' UK supermarkets.)
posted by Dysk at 3:46 AM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 3:46 AM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
you can be as useful as a chocolate teapot
I would find a chocolate teapot very useful and would like to subscribe to whatever subscription you have for them!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:28 AM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would find a chocolate teapot very useful and would like to subscribe to whatever subscription you have for them!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:28 AM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Skilled job" is an imaginary category created to provide a figleaf of justification for shit wages and shit working conditions
There's no question that companies would like to have as much work done as possible by a less expensive and easily replaced workforce. Yes this definitely disadvantages such workers. I acknowledge that becoming able to do a relatively simple task with speed, efficiency and success is itself a skill, and that it is often a false economy when companies don't reward and retain workers for that skill. But the fact remains that your accountant could probably do a passable job cleaning a bathroom, whereas the converse is not that likely.
We all agree, I believe, that any full-time job should pay a livable wage, and that work shouldn't be as precarious as it is for many. We won't get there by ignoring a genuine distinction in the nature of work.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:59 AM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
There's no question that companies would like to have as much work done as possible by a less expensive and easily replaced workforce. Yes this definitely disadvantages such workers. I acknowledge that becoming able to do a relatively simple task with speed, efficiency and success is itself a skill, and that it is often a false economy when companies don't reward and retain workers for that skill. But the fact remains that your accountant could probably do a passable job cleaning a bathroom, whereas the converse is not that likely.
We all agree, I believe, that any full-time job should pay a livable wage, and that work shouldn't be as precarious as it is for many. We won't get there by ignoring a genuine distinction in the nature of work.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:59 AM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
This whole "what is skilled" debate reminds me of a discussion I once had with my father about the word "profession". Technically, only those jobs which require long study, the passing of onerous exams and the issuing of a formal qualification meet the definition. We're talking about accountants, lawyers, doctors, that kind of thing. Colloquially, the same word is used simply to mean "job" or "the industry I happened to end up working in".
When I casually referred to my reporter's job as a "profession", my accountant dad laughed his socks off and would not accept the word at any price. I was happy to substitute "trade", but the furthest he'd go was "passtime".
Just to spin this thread off in yet another direction, let's talk about the class hierarchy of various supermarkets. Here in the UK - where everything comes down to class in the end - the pecking order from top to bottom is Marks & Spencer, Waitrose, Sainsburys, Tesco, Co-Op and then the discounters (Aldi, Lidl etc). It's partly about price, but partly about sheer snobbery too.
I can best illustrate this by reference to a couple of British TV gags.
Sandi Toksvig used to joke that she liked Sainsburys because it "kept the riff-raff out of Waitrose".
Alan Bennet has a line in one of his plays with Thora Hird's character expressing her shock at the news someone had been caught exposing himself outside Sainsburys: "I mean, Tesco you could understand..."
In one of the League of Gentlemen's spin-offs, there's a doctor addressing a clearly underclass patient, telling him not to worry but to go off and get his shopping done at .... He pauses for a second, assessing the patient with a gimlet eye, then pityingly adds "... Lidl. is it?". Mute nod.
posted by Paul Slade at 9:05 AM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
When I casually referred to my reporter's job as a "profession", my accountant dad laughed his socks off and would not accept the word at any price. I was happy to substitute "trade", but the furthest he'd go was "passtime".
Just to spin this thread off in yet another direction, let's talk about the class hierarchy of various supermarkets. Here in the UK - where everything comes down to class in the end - the pecking order from top to bottom is Marks & Spencer, Waitrose, Sainsburys, Tesco, Co-Op and then the discounters (Aldi, Lidl etc). It's partly about price, but partly about sheer snobbery too.
I can best illustrate this by reference to a couple of British TV gags.
Sandi Toksvig used to joke that she liked Sainsburys because it "kept the riff-raff out of Waitrose".
Alan Bennet has a line in one of his plays with Thora Hird's character expressing her shock at the news someone had been caught exposing himself outside Sainsburys: "I mean, Tesco you could understand..."
In one of the League of Gentlemen's spin-offs, there's a doctor addressing a clearly underclass patient, telling him not to worry but to go off and get his shopping done at .... He pauses for a second, assessing the patient with a gimlet eye, then pityingly adds "... Lidl. is it?". Mute nod.
posted by Paul Slade at 9:05 AM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
the furthest he'd go was "passtime"
OK I said something mean about your dad here and he might have been a very nice person otherwise so nah.
posted by tigrrrlily at 9:29 AM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
tigrrlily: I worried I might be giving the wrong impression there. In fact, the whole exchange was very good-natured, with a smile on both our faces throughout. It was more a playful little joust between father and son than anything else.
posted by Paul Slade at 9:36 AM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 9:36 AM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
your accountant could probably do a passable job cleaning a bathroom
I see no reason to assume that my accountant would be any better at cleaning bathrooms than I am. Which is to say, nowhere near as effective as somebody who does it for a living.
The fact that this kind of example is so frequently wheeled out is exactly why I object so strongly to the idea of an "unskilled job". Cleaning a bathroom is an easy task to describe, so people whose jobs required doing a lot of academic study before they could even get started often make the mistake of thinking of it as easier to do than whatever it is they do.
Well, it isn't. To somebody like me, who is not particularly skilled at cleaning bathrooms, the job is an exhausting grind and generally a pain in the arse. I know how tired I am after giving just my own bathroom a decent once-over once. The prospect of doing it multiple times in a day and then coming back the next day to do it all again, and again the day after that, and the day after that, and on and on and on? For me, that would be hell. I wouldn't last a week.
Conversely, I see no reason to assume why Frank the astonishingly effective school cleaner could be expected to display any competence at maintaining the school's IT infrastructure. But when the school first employed me to do the latter, I had exactly the same formal qualifications for it as he does i.e. none. I learned how to do that job by doing it, just as he learned to do his, and I see no justification at all for dismissing the thousands of hours he put in to get as good as he was as somehow less worthy than the thousands of hours I put in to get as good as I was. And yet cleaning is pretty much the canonical "unskilled job".
Seriously, spend a couple hours watching a skilled cleaner work. It's fucking balletic.
posted by flabdablet at 10:32 AM on November 21, 2023 [12 favorites]
I see no reason to assume that my accountant would be any better at cleaning bathrooms than I am. Which is to say, nowhere near as effective as somebody who does it for a living.
The fact that this kind of example is so frequently wheeled out is exactly why I object so strongly to the idea of an "unskilled job". Cleaning a bathroom is an easy task to describe, so people whose jobs required doing a lot of academic study before they could even get started often make the mistake of thinking of it as easier to do than whatever it is they do.
Well, it isn't. To somebody like me, who is not particularly skilled at cleaning bathrooms, the job is an exhausting grind and generally a pain in the arse. I know how tired I am after giving just my own bathroom a decent once-over once. The prospect of doing it multiple times in a day and then coming back the next day to do it all again, and again the day after that, and the day after that, and on and on and on? For me, that would be hell. I wouldn't last a week.
Conversely, I see no reason to assume why Frank the astonishingly effective school cleaner could be expected to display any competence at maintaining the school's IT infrastructure. But when the school first employed me to do the latter, I had exactly the same formal qualifications for it as he does i.e. none. I learned how to do that job by doing it, just as he learned to do his, and I see no justification at all for dismissing the thousands of hours he put in to get as good as he was as somehow less worthy than the thousands of hours I put in to get as good as I was. And yet cleaning is pretty much the canonical "unskilled job".
Seriously, spend a couple hours watching a skilled cleaner work. It's fucking balletic.
posted by flabdablet at 10:32 AM on November 21, 2023 [12 favorites]
the pecking order from top to bottom is Marks & Spencer, Waitrose, Sainsburys, Tesco, Co-Op and then the discounters (Aldi, Lidl etc). It's partly about price, but partly about sheer snobbery too.
Can confirm. When young master flabdablet was 16, he was mortified at the thought of having to accompany me or ms flabdablet on any of our regular trips to Aldi because "that's where the povs shop".
posted by flabdablet at 10:41 AM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
Can confirm. When young master flabdablet was 16, he was mortified at the thought of having to accompany me or ms flabdablet on any of our regular trips to Aldi because "that's where the povs shop".
posted by flabdablet at 10:41 AM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
when the school first employed me to do [IT infrastructure] I had exactly the same formal qualifications for it as [the cleaner] does i.e. none. I learned how to do that job by doing it, just as he learned to do his
I expect that you had the IT skillset before applying, and you had to demonstrate said competence to get the gig.
Should the employer value the experience and efficiency of a skilled cleaner more highly? Can't disagree. But it's still a gig that someone can learn to be competent at fairly quickly, such that you CAN hire someone who's never done it before, pair them with a mentor, and in a very short time, they can meet the demands of the position. Can't do that really for IT.
(I'm self taught in IT too. I can also clean. The market tells me which skill is more highly prized)
posted by Artful Codger at 11:03 AM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I expect that you had the IT skillset before applying, and you had to demonstrate said competence to get the gig.
Should the employer value the experience and efficiency of a skilled cleaner more highly? Can't disagree. But it's still a gig that someone can learn to be competent at fairly quickly, such that you CAN hire someone who's never done it before, pair them with a mentor, and in a very short time, they can meet the demands of the position. Can't do that really for IT.
(I'm self taught in IT too. I can also clean. The market tells me which skill is more highly prized)
posted by Artful Codger at 11:03 AM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't think anyone is arguing that all jobs require the same degree of skill or length of time learning the skill involved.
Just that the division of jobs into "skilled" and "unskilled" is arbitrary and usually not based on much of anything but classism. And of course, that the division is used by the rich to keep the poor down and crab bucket us by pitching the "skilled" against the "unskilled".
As such it's generally in our best interestests to have some class solidarity and not get into the infighting the rich have set up to keep us from fighting them.
posted by sotonohito at 11:51 AM on November 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
Just that the division of jobs into "skilled" and "unskilled" is arbitrary and usually not based on much of anything but classism. And of course, that the division is used by the rich to keep the poor down and crab bucket us by pitching the "skilled" against the "unskilled".
As such it's generally in our best interestests to have some class solidarity and not get into the infighting the rich have set up to keep us from fighting them.
posted by sotonohito at 11:51 AM on November 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
Just that the division of jobs into "skilled" and "unskilled" is arbitrary and usually not based on much of anything but classism. And of course, that the division is used by the rich to keep the poor down and crab bucket us by pitching the "skilled" against the "unskilled".
So, while I mostly agree with you in terms of how the term is often used (i.e., to devalue some types of work), there is a very real and useful distinction underneath the imprecise term.
Some jobs require lengthy education, training, or apprenticeships (this may be "real" in that this level of training is really needed to do the work, or "fake" in that it simply adds a credentialing requirement to keep the number of qualified people artificially low). Whereas other jobs do not require that type of education/certification prior to starting; there may be an expectation of having skills from prior work (being a waiter in fine dining can be like this), or that the needed skills can be learned in a short period of classroom or on-the-job training (McDonalds and Starbucks are examples of this).
In a some cases this is more a social construction than anything real (i.e., requiring a diploma for work that doesn't actually require that level of education) but in a lot of cases it is real. If I am hiring a lawyer or doctor, I want them to be formally trained and credentialed, for example; ditto for a pipe welder for a gas pipeline. If I am hiring a general laborer for a construction site, they need to meet some physical criteria and hopefully have applicable previous experience, but they don't need a certification or lengthy apprenticeship to do that work.
But personally, I really hate the use of "unskilled" as a category because, as has been pointed out many times above, it devalues and misrepresents entire classes of work as not requiring skills, which just isn't true. It's a crap term and probably primarily reflects the biases of the era in which it was coined.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:37 PM on November 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
So, while I mostly agree with you in terms of how the term is often used (i.e., to devalue some types of work), there is a very real and useful distinction underneath the imprecise term.
Some jobs require lengthy education, training, or apprenticeships (this may be "real" in that this level of training is really needed to do the work, or "fake" in that it simply adds a credentialing requirement to keep the number of qualified people artificially low). Whereas other jobs do not require that type of education/certification prior to starting; there may be an expectation of having skills from prior work (being a waiter in fine dining can be like this), or that the needed skills can be learned in a short period of classroom or on-the-job training (McDonalds and Starbucks are examples of this).
In a some cases this is more a social construction than anything real (i.e., requiring a diploma for work that doesn't actually require that level of education) but in a lot of cases it is real. If I am hiring a lawyer or doctor, I want them to be formally trained and credentialed, for example; ditto for a pipe welder for a gas pipeline. If I am hiring a general laborer for a construction site, they need to meet some physical criteria and hopefully have applicable previous experience, but they don't need a certification or lengthy apprenticeship to do that work.
But personally, I really hate the use of "unskilled" as a category because, as has been pointed out many times above, it devalues and misrepresents entire classes of work as not requiring skills, which just isn't true. It's a crap term and probably primarily reflects the biases of the era in which it was coined.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:37 PM on November 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
What Dip Flash said.The solution is to properly respect and reward all work, isn't it? We can maybe come up with less freighted terms to make the distinction, when it's meaningful.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:41 PM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Artful Codger at 12:41 PM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think the distinction you're looking for is credentialed vs non-credentialed.
and it's not quite so cut and dry as it might be. Most IT professionals are not, actually, credentialed despite having professional credentialing available.
Some professions have lobbied to make it illegal to practice that profession without a credential, which is more and less justified depending on the profession (doctor, very justified, hairdresser less so).
You can make a good argument for a general credentialing system, possibly government administered and run or as a non-profit chartered by the government to do it, for EVERYTHING. Want to work as a cashier, you need your cashier cert.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that argument, but I can see it.
posted by sotonohito at 12:43 PM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
and it's not quite so cut and dry as it might be. Most IT professionals are not, actually, credentialed despite having professional credentialing available.
Some professions have lobbied to make it illegal to practice that profession without a credential, which is more and less justified depending on the profession (doctor, very justified, hairdresser less so).
You can make a good argument for a general credentialing system, possibly government administered and run or as a non-profit chartered by the government to do it, for EVERYTHING. Want to work as a cashier, you need your cashier cert.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that argument, but I can see it.
posted by sotonohito at 12:43 PM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
And as I pointed out above, what jobs are credentialed and what jobs aren’t varies by region/jurisdiction, sometimes by quite a bit.
posted by eviemath at 2:37 PM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 2:37 PM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
In a some cases this is more a social construction than anything real (i.e., requiring a diploma for work that doesn't actually require that level of education) but in a lot of cases it is real.
Something that was pointed out to me once is that credentialing something almost automatically translates into increased pay for that job (or it used to). So while it seems like more bullshit to jump through that we maybe think it doesnt deserve it but that extra bullshit means more pay for those people. It essentially turns it from "unskilled" to "skilled", or to use an comment above (not endorsing, just because this is how our society works) moves the job up in class.
I dont always think its a bad thing for something to become credentialed if it allows people to get more money and/or respect for their work, which benefits from having people skilled at their job.
posted by LizBoBiz at 3:42 PM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
Something that was pointed out to me once is that credentialing something almost automatically translates into increased pay for that job (or it used to). So while it seems like more bullshit to jump through that we maybe think it doesnt deserve it but that extra bullshit means more pay for those people. It essentially turns it from "unskilled" to "skilled", or to use an comment above (not endorsing, just because this is how our society works) moves the job up in class.
I dont always think its a bad thing for something to become credentialed if it allows people to get more money and/or respect for their work, which benefits from having people skilled at their job.
posted by LizBoBiz at 3:42 PM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
"Cleaning a bathroom is an easy task to describe,"
This.
'Build a house.'
Just three words. But the background knowledge and skills to do it are a whole universe.
There are no unskilled jobs. Only different degrees of skill.
posted by Pouteria at 3:47 PM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
This.
'Build a house.'
Just three words. But the background knowledge and skills to do it are a whole universe.
There are no unskilled jobs. Only different degrees of skill.
posted by Pouteria at 3:47 PM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
credentialing something almost automatically translates into increased pay for that job
Used to. These days it's much more often used as a pure gatekeeping device, cutting down on the number of résumés that need to be given serious consideration. This has, in turn, led to the mechanisms for gaining credentials becoming so thoroughly gamed as to make a clear majority of the credentials in circulation today not worth the paper they're no longer even printed on. For the purposes of certifying that their holders have actual skills, far too many of today's formal qualifications might as well be Twitter blue checks.
posted by flabdablet at 1:30 AM on November 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Used to. These days it's much more often used as a pure gatekeeping device, cutting down on the number of résumés that need to be given serious consideration. This has, in turn, led to the mechanisms for gaining credentials becoming so thoroughly gamed as to make a clear majority of the credentials in circulation today not worth the paper they're no longer even printed on. For the purposes of certifying that their holders have actual skills, far too many of today's formal qualifications might as well be Twitter blue checks.
posted by flabdablet at 1:30 AM on November 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
My first exposure to meaningless credentials happened when I was a tiny child. Mum and Dad both worked, and every second Thursday afternoon we were looked after by a babysitter.
Our first babysitter was Mrs Morrison, and she was a cranky old cow. She got very offended when I used the term "babysitting" to refer to what she was doing for us. I can't even remember exactly what I'd said, but I will never forget the volume at which she shouted "I am a Mothercraft Nurse!"
Mrs Morrison was not a very good babysitter. From the inexplicable inclusion of pineapple pieces in stews that nobody with functioning tastebuds would ever put pineapple in, to the bolus of food left stuck to the kitchen ceiling after the pressure cooker exploded, to the bright blue plasticine melted into the living room carpet after she'd left it unattended in front of the heater for some mysterious craft project of her own in which none of us were in any way involved, to the shouting. Oh god, the shouting. But she was a Mothercraft Nurse, and it really wasn't until after the blue plasticine incident that my folks were inclined to take our consistent complaints about her the slightest bit seriously.
We were all way happier after Mrs Morrison got the arse in favour of a succession of totally uncredentialled teenagers, all of them high school students taught either by Mum or Dad, and all of them kind and competent and behaving as if they actually liked us. And although I was obviously too young at the time to have any grasp of finances, I know who my parents were and I would be astonished to learn that they paid any of those teenagers a lower hourly than they paid Mrs Morrison.
posted by flabdablet at 1:58 AM on November 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Our first babysitter was Mrs Morrison, and she was a cranky old cow. She got very offended when I used the term "babysitting" to refer to what she was doing for us. I can't even remember exactly what I'd said, but I will never forget the volume at which she shouted "I am a Mothercraft Nurse!"
Mrs Morrison was not a very good babysitter. From the inexplicable inclusion of pineapple pieces in stews that nobody with functioning tastebuds would ever put pineapple in, to the bolus of food left stuck to the kitchen ceiling after the pressure cooker exploded, to the bright blue plasticine melted into the living room carpet after she'd left it unattended in front of the heater for some mysterious craft project of her own in which none of us were in any way involved, to the shouting. Oh god, the shouting. But she was a Mothercraft Nurse, and it really wasn't until after the blue plasticine incident that my folks were inclined to take our consistent complaints about her the slightest bit seriously.
We were all way happier after Mrs Morrison got the arse in favour of a succession of totally uncredentialled teenagers, all of them high school students taught either by Mum or Dad, and all of them kind and competent and behaving as if they actually liked us. And although I was obviously too young at the time to have any grasp of finances, I know who my parents were and I would be astonished to learn that they paid any of those teenagers a lower hourly than they paid Mrs Morrison.
posted by flabdablet at 1:58 AM on November 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's a crap term and probably primarily reflects the biases of the era in which it was coined.
Perpetuates them too.
posted by flabdablet at 2:03 AM on November 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Perpetuates them too.
posted by flabdablet at 2:03 AM on November 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
>>credentialing something almost automatically translates into increased pay for that job
>Used to. These days it's much more often used as a pure gatekeeping device, cutting down on the number of résumés that need to be given serious consideration..
Back in about 1999 I was looking for a job. At least where I was living, it was kind of a crap job market with a lot of applicants and not so many decent jobs, so employers could and did put up arbitrary gatekeeping requirements. I'll always remember the job ad I saw to be a local box truck delivery driver that listed a bachelors degree as a requirement, as an example of using credentialing as gatekeeping in the most useless way. (Not only was it unnecessary, but ironically it likely limited them to less-qualified applicants in terms of truck driving skills.)
posted by Dip Flash at 6:31 AM on November 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
>Used to. These days it's much more often used as a pure gatekeeping device, cutting down on the number of résumés that need to be given serious consideration..
Back in about 1999 I was looking for a job. At least where I was living, it was kind of a crap job market with a lot of applicants and not so many decent jobs, so employers could and did put up arbitrary gatekeeping requirements. I'll always remember the job ad I saw to be a local box truck delivery driver that listed a bachelors degree as a requirement, as an example of using credentialing as gatekeeping in the most useless way. (Not only was it unnecessary, but ironically it likely limited them to less-qualified applicants in terms of truck driving skills.)
posted by Dip Flash at 6:31 AM on November 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
That's not that cashier. This is that cashier.
posted by Paul Slade at 11:50 AM on November 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Paul Slade at 11:50 AM on November 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Self-checkout is so poorly designed as to be consumer-hostile. The machine hollering at me about where to put my stuff when the options are so ridiculously limited makes me really cranky. I just went to BJs, the machine wanted to sell me a credit card, I hit a wrong thing then had to wait for a staff person and was so annoyed. I wasn't going to renew the free membership anyway, but the incessant credit card push really nails it.
Once upon a time, you knew the checkers at your store, you had a little time, chatted. You had a relationship with the store and staff. Now you are a unit of consumer with wallet. The impersonalization of everything is distressing; this may apply more to geezers.
posted by theora55 at 9:56 PM on November 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Once upon a time, you knew the checkers at your store, you had a little time, chatted. You had a relationship with the store and staff. Now you are a unit of consumer with wallet. The impersonalization of everything is distressing; this may apply more to geezers.
posted by theora55 at 9:56 PM on November 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
The thing about geezers is that we do know what we've got, on account of having lived long enough to see so much of it gone.
posted by flabdablet at 12:37 AM on November 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 12:37 AM on November 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Once upon a time, you knew the checkers at your store, you had a little time, chatted. You had a relationship with the store and staff.
This sounds like a vision of hell. I would never shop if this were still how it worked.
posted by Dysk at 12:43 AM on November 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
This sounds like a vision of hell. I would never shop if this were still how it worked.
posted by Dysk at 12:43 AM on November 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
At some of the stores near me, the self check machines are on a goddamn hair trigger. If you are a second too soon or too late placing an item, try to rearrange items in your floppy reusable bag or just brush the “tray” it sends the whole system into a tailspin and you have to wait for someone to unfuck it. I trigger it 3-4 times in a visit sometimes.
On the other hand, at the local whole foods the wait is longer and I will willingly wait longer for self checkout because the checkout staff are so indifferent. It helps that they don’t use weight for item detection at that store so that tips the scales, so to speak, in favour of the machines.
posted by clark at 6:19 AM on November 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, at the local whole foods the wait is longer and I will willingly wait longer for self checkout because the checkout staff are so indifferent. It helps that they don’t use weight for item detection at that store so that tips the scales, so to speak, in favour of the machines.
posted by clark at 6:19 AM on November 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
This sounds like a vision of hell. I would never shop if this were still how it worked.
Exactly. There are people who enjoy an ongoing conversation with their barber/hairdresser, for instance, and people who cling to the chair and scream YOU ARE PAID TO USE YOUR SCISSORS, NOT YOUR MOUTH, I BEG OF YOU silently in their skulls.
It is good for introverts to have options.
posted by delfin at 9:24 AM on November 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Exactly. There are people who enjoy an ongoing conversation with their barber/hairdresser, for instance, and people who cling to the chair and scream YOU ARE PAID TO USE YOUR SCISSORS, NOT YOUR MOUTH, I BEG OF YOU silently in their skulls.
It is good for introverts to have options.
posted by delfin at 9:24 AM on November 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
That, and not everyone can rely on social interactions being pleasant even for extroverts. Racism, queerphobia, ableism, transphobia, fatphobia, etc, etc. The odds for how even the most superficial social interaction will go aren't the same for everyone.
posted by Dysk at 12:26 PM on November 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 12:26 PM on November 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
It is good for introverts to have options.
Self-checkouts as an option are fine. Self-checkouts as the only option is what some of us object to.
posted by Paul Slade at 2:20 PM on November 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Self-checkouts as an option are fine. Self-checkouts as the only option is what some of us object to.
posted by Paul Slade at 2:20 PM on November 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've never seen a store with only self checkout, must be lucky or the area doesn't believe in it or something...
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:25 PM on November 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:25 PM on November 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've seen stores with one manual register for emergencies and all the rest of the checkouts being selfs, but not 100% self.
I have seen plenty of stores with a handful of self-checkout kiosks and one out of seventeen register aisles with anyone near them.
And I have seen my share of department stores with no self-checkout, twelve checkout stations and one cashier on duty at one of them. 'Course, that's probably why department stores are rapidly vanishing...
posted by delfin at 5:38 PM on November 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have seen plenty of stores with a handful of self-checkout kiosks and one out of seventeen register aisles with anyone near them.
And I have seen my share of department stores with no self-checkout, twelve checkout stations and one cashier on duty at one of them. 'Course, that's probably why department stores are rapidly vanishing...
posted by delfin at 5:38 PM on November 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Back when most grocery stores were small local places, you'd tell a clerk what you wanted and they'd go get it for you. It meant you had less choice over your produce, but it was a lot more convenient! It's another practice that I've never experienced in my lifetime, and I am kind of mad no one does it that way any more!
Seems to me that was the way grocery stores worked a century ago before (I think) Piggly Wiggly introduced the now-default approach where you go up and down the aisles and take what you need to the cashier; once upon a time you used to visit J. S. Bishop’s Dry Goods and the elaborately moustached Mr. Bishop himself would stand at the counter and pluck baking soda and mustard plasters from the shelves behind him.
The odd thing is that (where I live, anyway), every grocery chain has a service — usually branded as a Personal Shopper Experience or something where you pay for someone to shop for you and deliver your groceries. Just as you say, you wind up with less choice over produce and you get plenty of well-meaning but hapless substitutions and you pay more for worse outcomes but boy, is it convenient!
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:17 AM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Seems to me that was the way grocery stores worked a century ago before (I think) Piggly Wiggly introduced the now-default approach where you go up and down the aisles and take what you need to the cashier; once upon a time you used to visit J. S. Bishop’s Dry Goods and the elaborately moustached Mr. Bishop himself would stand at the counter and pluck baking soda and mustard plasters from the shelves behind him.
The odd thing is that (where I live, anyway), every grocery chain has a service — usually branded as a Personal Shopper Experience or something where you pay for someone to shop for you and deliver your groceries. Just as you say, you wind up with less choice over produce and you get plenty of well-meaning but hapless substitutions and you pay more for worse outcomes but boy, is it convenient!
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:17 AM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
« Older Saving this tree species from extinction | The Roottrees are Dead Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by wakannai at 2:26 AM on November 19, 2023 [28 favorites]