debate me, coward
November 30, 2023 5:30 PM Subscribe
Tonight at 9PM Eastern: California Governor Gavin Newsom and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis face off in an unusual debate moderated by Fox News host Sean Hannity. DeSantis, an early star in the Republican primary, has mounted a dysfunctional campaign that is struggling to gain traction against frontrunner Donald Trump, while Newsom has emerged as a top Biden surrogate and possible contender for 2028 (if not 2024). Indulge if you can, since it might be the last national bipartisan debate in a while. Free live streams with minimal commentary: Brian Tyler Cohen - David Pakman
Newsom really wants to be the Democrats' spare tire for 2024...
posted by senor biggles at 5:48 PM on November 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by senor biggles at 5:48 PM on November 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
The prospect of a Newsom presidency makes me nervous. Remember what happened the last time we elected a California governor to the White House.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:50 PM on November 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:50 PM on November 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
At least Newsom recognizes the rights of gays to exist, while DeSantis would put us into a concentration camp to get a bump in poll numbers.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:05 PM on November 30, 2023 [46 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:05 PM on November 30, 2023 [46 favorites]
I regret everything about this "debate". Simply terrible.
The prospect of a Newsom presidency makes me nervous.
You (and the entire planet) should be so fuckin' lucky. We're gonna get Trump v3 (yes, that's not allowed, no that doesn't matter, MAGA! Woo! Coal!) and it'll all go to shit so much faster than expected. You ready to get shot in the street like a dog because you're the wrong color? Not christian enough? Not MAN enough?
To quote AT&T -- "you will"
posted by aramaic at 6:08 PM on November 30, 2023 [15 favorites]
The prospect of a Newsom presidency makes me nervous.
You (and the entire planet) should be so fuckin' lucky. We're gonna get Trump v3 (yes, that's not allowed, no that doesn't matter, MAGA! Woo! Coal!) and it'll all go to shit so much faster than expected. You ready to get shot in the street like a dog because you're the wrong color? Not christian enough? Not MAN enough?
To quote AT&T -- "you will"
posted by aramaic at 6:08 PM on November 30, 2023 [15 favorites]
The Newsom-DeSantis debate in a nutshell
posted by Rhaomi at 6:16 PM on November 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 6:16 PM on November 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Watched a bit of this. Wow, it's really horrible. Just two guys talking over each other, and the moderator showing Fox News approved charts.
posted by milnak at 6:24 PM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by milnak at 6:24 PM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
I watched as much as I could stomach. I don't really know what that was, but I know one thing for sure - it wasn't a debate.
posted by dg at 6:58 PM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by dg at 6:58 PM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Newsom is an idiot for agreeing to this. Zero to gain.
posted by azpenguin at 7:10 PM on November 30, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by azpenguin at 7:10 PM on November 30, 2023 [24 favorites]
I can’t imagine hating myself enough to watch such a thing.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 7:14 PM on November 30, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 7:14 PM on November 30, 2023 [17 favorites]
I seem to remember a time when we'd regularly have political or cultural figures meeting and even debating. Like Sunday mornings used to have a ton of this going on, but there were other shows, too. It didn't used to be a gigantic thing to have people doing things like this.
Well, okay, not like this. The "let's talk to each other about issues" part used to work better in the past.
I've heard it said repeatedly lately that part of the fascist playbook is to make politics so unpleasant and bare knuckle that none of the people who used to practice the craft with adult decorum stop even wanting to show up so all the thugs can take over.
posted by hippybear at 7:32 PM on November 30, 2023 [32 favorites]
Well, okay, not like this. The "let's talk to each other about issues" part used to work better in the past.
I've heard it said repeatedly lately that part of the fascist playbook is to make politics so unpleasant and bare knuckle that none of the people who used to practice the craft with adult decorum stop even wanting to show up so all the thugs can take over.
posted by hippybear at 7:32 PM on November 30, 2023 [32 favorites]
"Audacity, more audacity, always more audacity!”
-Danton.
posted by clavdivs at 7:39 PM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
-Danton.
posted by clavdivs at 7:39 PM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Dumbest stunt of the night candidates:
posted by Rhaomi at 7:41 PM on November 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
- DeSantis pulling out a heavily censored page from Gender QueerText in yr votes now
- DeSantis pulling out a literal poop map
- Hannity apparently agreeing to extend the debate on the fly [edit: and then chickening out last minute]
posted by Rhaomi at 7:41 PM on November 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Some political consultant clearly told Ron DeSantis he needs to smile more and this is the unfortunate result"
posted by Rhaomi at 7:54 PM on November 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 7:54 PM on November 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm still waiting for the Zuck/Elon cage fight? When is that happening?
posted by hippybear at 8:12 PM on November 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 8:12 PM on November 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
Newsom is an idiot for agreeing to this. Zero to gain.
AFAICT, zero to lose. Zero to gain? The opportunity to stick a fork in weirdo DeSantis and sell Biden accomplishments (which have been impressive) on alternate reality territory sounds like a plus to me. Maybe he could do Nikki Haley next (she's too smart to take the bait).
Newsom: "There's one thing in closing we have in common, is neither of us will be the nominee for our party in 2024"... the moment Newsome delivered the coup de grâce.
posted by 2N2222 at 8:54 PM on November 30, 2023 [44 favorites]
AFAICT, zero to lose. Zero to gain? The opportunity to stick a fork in weirdo DeSantis and sell Biden accomplishments (which have been impressive) on alternate reality territory sounds like a plus to me. Maybe he could do Nikki Haley next (she's too smart to take the bait).
Newsom: "There's one thing in closing we have in common, is neither of us will be the nominee for our party in 2024"... the moment Newsome delivered the coup de grâce.
posted by 2N2222 at 8:54 PM on November 30, 2023 [44 favorites]
Newsom is an idiot for agreeing to this. Zero to gain.
No he's not. It gave him an opportunity to establish himself as a spokesman for his party and the left-of-center who is willing to challenge the right's talking points. It enabled him to go in front of a hostile audience (remember, this was aired on Fox News and moderated by Sean Hannity) and present an alternative perspective which that audience almost never gets. And it provided a platform for him to champion the Biden administration's record in (I personally think) a pretty cutting and articulate way. There's really no downside for Newsom here. And it doesn't exactly elevate DeSantis, either-- he's already a national household name, and one debate with a friendly moderator and audience isn't going to reverse his cratering momentum and support.
The prospect of a Newsom presidency makes me nervous. Remember what happened the last time we elected a California governor to the White House.
I'm pretty sure the fact that Reagan decimated this country had more to do with the descriptor of 'ultra-conservative Republican' than 'California governor'. Why in the world would a Newsom presidency have anything in common with Reagan's? This is like insisting you wouldn't vote for Bernie Sanders because the last president from Vermont was arch-conservative Calvin Coolidge. What happened last time we elected a California governor to the White House had very little to do with the fact that he was a California governor.
I can’t imagine hating myself enough to watch such a thing.
That's a little insulting to those of us who watched it and are, for the most part, pretty okay with ourselves. You're free to not watch it without putting down people who for any number of reasons did decide to watch it.
posted by Method Man at 9:18 PM on November 30, 2023 [83 favorites]
No he's not. It gave him an opportunity to establish himself as a spokesman for his party and the left-of-center who is willing to challenge the right's talking points. It enabled him to go in front of a hostile audience (remember, this was aired on Fox News and moderated by Sean Hannity) and present an alternative perspective which that audience almost never gets. And it provided a platform for him to champion the Biden administration's record in (I personally think) a pretty cutting and articulate way. There's really no downside for Newsom here. And it doesn't exactly elevate DeSantis, either-- he's already a national household name, and one debate with a friendly moderator and audience isn't going to reverse his cratering momentum and support.
The prospect of a Newsom presidency makes me nervous. Remember what happened the last time we elected a California governor to the White House.
I'm pretty sure the fact that Reagan decimated this country had more to do with the descriptor of 'ultra-conservative Republican' than 'California governor'. Why in the world would a Newsom presidency have anything in common with Reagan's? This is like insisting you wouldn't vote for Bernie Sanders because the last president from Vermont was arch-conservative Calvin Coolidge. What happened last time we elected a California governor to the White House had very little to do with the fact that he was a California governor.
I can’t imagine hating myself enough to watch such a thing.
That's a little insulting to those of us who watched it and are, for the most part, pretty okay with ourselves. You're free to not watch it without putting down people who for any number of reasons did decide to watch it.
posted by Method Man at 9:18 PM on November 30, 2023 [83 favorites]
Reagan was also a media star. That, with endless apologies to the badass Zelenskyy, is more likely to be the common denominator for usa presidents being atrocious
posted by Jacen at 11:12 PM on November 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 11:12 PM on November 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
I can’t imagine hating myself enough to watch such a thing.
That's a little insulting to those of us who watched it
The first line is called hyperbole and is a joke. The second line is not understanding common forms of humor.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 11:23 PM on November 30, 2023 [14 favorites]
That's a little insulting to those of us who watched it
The first line is called hyperbole and is a joke. The second line is not understanding common forms of humor.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 11:23 PM on November 30, 2023 [14 favorites]
The prospect of a Newsom presidency makes me nervous. Remember what happened the last time we elected a California governor to the White House.
I can't wait for the anti-democracy, pro-forced-birth Brian Kemp to become president, remembering what happened the last time a Georgia governor was elected to the White House.
posted by Superilla at 11:24 PM on November 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
I can't wait for the anti-democracy, pro-forced-birth Brian Kemp to become president, remembering what happened the last time a Georgia governor was elected to the White House.
posted by Superilla at 11:24 PM on November 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
The first line is called hyperbole and is a joke. The second line is not understanding common forms of humor.
Eh. Yeah, obviously it was a joke and I didn't sincerely believe that commenter was accusing anyone who watched the debate of hating themselves. I didn't think it was a very good joke, but some folks do look down on others for being invested in or interested in politics and maybe I'm just oversensitive about that.
posted by Method Man at 11:40 PM on November 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
Eh. Yeah, obviously it was a joke and I didn't sincerely believe that commenter was accusing anyone who watched the debate of hating themselves. I didn't think it was a very good joke, but some folks do look down on others for being invested in or interested in politics and maybe I'm just oversensitive about that.
posted by Method Man at 11:40 PM on November 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
Reagan and his staff made literal fag jokes in the hallways and press conferences held at the White House, while watching and laughing while 90k Americans died. I don't think Newsom would do that. Honest question: do you, people who made that false equivalence and those who favorited it?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:11 AM on December 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:11 AM on December 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
> Remember what happened the last time we elected a California governor to the White House.
You mean of course President Schwarzenegger's term?
I remember it so clearly . . . um, I think?
posted by flug at 12:23 AM on December 1, 2023
You mean of course President Schwarzenegger's term?
I remember it so clearly . . . um, I think?
posted by flug at 12:23 AM on December 1, 2023
The first line is called hyperbole and is a joke. The second line is not understanding common forms of humor.
Here are three things I believe about humor:
1. Humor is not a magical towel that wipes every statement clean of meaning. On the contrary: humor is a highly effective form of communication.
2. It's OK to joke about literally any aspect of life, because it's OK to communicate about any aspect of life. But...
3. If you communicate an idea through humor, you have to take the same responsibility as if you had just said it directly.
In this case, Horace Rumpole was communicating the idea that by not watching this debate, he proved himself superior to anybody who did watch it. That's not a great thing to communicate in a thread dedicated to discussing the debate.
posted by yankeefog at 3:49 AM on December 1, 2023 [28 favorites]
Here are three things I believe about humor:
1. Humor is not a magical towel that wipes every statement clean of meaning. On the contrary: humor is a highly effective form of communication.
2. It's OK to joke about literally any aspect of life, because it's OK to communicate about any aspect of life. But...
3. If you communicate an idea through humor, you have to take the same responsibility as if you had just said it directly.
In this case, Horace Rumpole was communicating the idea that by not watching this debate, he proved himself superior to anybody who did watch it. That's not a great thing to communicate in a thread dedicated to discussing the debate.
posted by yankeefog at 3:49 AM on December 1, 2023 [28 favorites]
The first line is called hyperbole and is a joke. The second line is not understanding common forms of humor.
And we all know that the appropriate response when someone says that they are offended by your joke, is to mansplain to them that it's a joke rather than apologize for unintentional offense. *eye roll* Don't be a bully, please.
Newsom is an idiot for agreeing to this. Zero to gain.
Also disagree. While the debate was mostly nonsense in terms of content, Newsom placed his charismatic, sharp self in front of Fox News viewers for a while, and used their forum to advance Democratic Party talking points and perspectives. Fox News viewers, despite the content of the network's programming and their fan behavior, are in my experience much less ideological than tribal. And if you put an appealing new chief in front of them, they just might start listening to him.
The medium is the message, content follows form. The substance of the debate doesn't matter, only the optics and emotional impact on any Fox viewers who tuned in; persuasion is emotional (and therefore irrational) most of the time.
posted by LooseFilter at 6:43 AM on December 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
And we all know that the appropriate response when someone says that they are offended by your joke, is to mansplain to them that it's a joke rather than apologize for unintentional offense. *eye roll* Don't be a bully, please.
Newsom is an idiot for agreeing to this. Zero to gain.
Also disagree. While the debate was mostly nonsense in terms of content, Newsom placed his charismatic, sharp self in front of Fox News viewers for a while, and used their forum to advance Democratic Party talking points and perspectives. Fox News viewers, despite the content of the network's programming and their fan behavior, are in my experience much less ideological than tribal. And if you put an appealing new chief in front of them, they just might start listening to him.
The medium is the message, content follows form. The substance of the debate doesn't matter, only the optics and emotional impact on any Fox viewers who tuned in; persuasion is emotional (and therefore irrational) most of the time.
posted by LooseFilter at 6:43 AM on December 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
What a fucking tool Newsom is... How could this possibly have any kind of positive outcome for anyone except the two people involved?
for those outside California, Newsom's recent political actions include a social media post about at an Oakland City Council meeting that took a survivor of the war in Lebanon's comments out of context and resulted in them getting doxxed, vetoing a bill to give unemployment benefits to striking workers, and vetoing a bill to protect trans rights and the rights of people who experience caste-discrimination.
He may sound great to folks outside California but in a state with a Democratic super-majority in the legislature we could do much, much better.
posted by latkes at 7:08 AM on December 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
for those outside California, Newsom's recent political actions include a social media post about at an Oakland City Council meeting that took a survivor of the war in Lebanon's comments out of context and resulted in them getting doxxed, vetoing a bill to give unemployment benefits to striking workers, and vetoing a bill to protect trans rights and the rights of people who experience caste-discrimination.
He may sound great to folks outside California but in a state with a Democratic super-majority in the legislature we could do much, much better.
posted by latkes at 7:08 AM on December 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
The fact that David Pakman is streaming this debacle is all you need to know.
posted by bluesky43 at 7:20 AM on December 1, 2023
posted by bluesky43 at 7:20 AM on December 1, 2023
Saying "I can’t imagine hating myself enough to do x" is a judgment call on exactly one person.
Wanna hang out downtown Manhattan on New Years Eve?? Hello no.
Your employer getting rid of remote work and needs everyone back in the office? Fuck off.
DeSantis/Newsom debate on Fox News? Ugh, no thanks.
There is no judgment on anyone else. The self-flagellation in this thread is bizarre.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 7:32 AM on December 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Wanna hang out downtown Manhattan on New Years Eve?? Hello no.
Your employer getting rid of remote work and needs everyone back in the office? Fuck off.
DeSantis/Newsom debate on Fox News? Ugh, no thanks.
There is no judgment on anyone else. The self-flagellation in this thread is bizarre.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 7:32 AM on December 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Of all the things we really need right now this was none of them.
posted by tommasz at 7:34 AM on December 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 7:34 AM on December 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm not a fan or a non fan of Newsom but at least he's sharp and has some charge. And in a shallow media world where looks and image matter so much, he does look like an actor playing a president. I can think of worse candidates.
posted by Liquidwolf at 8:14 AM on December 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Liquidwolf at 8:14 AM on December 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Some political consultant clearly told Ron DeSantis he needs to smile more and this is the unfortunate result"
He is like a less-charismatic Nathan Fielder.
posted by snofoam at 8:18 AM on December 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
He is like a less-charismatic Nathan Fielder.
posted by snofoam at 8:18 AM on December 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Did Sean Hannity cut anyone off mid-answer because he didn't agree with them? Actually, don't tell me, I know he did.
posted by BYiro at 8:37 AM on December 1, 2023
posted by BYiro at 8:37 AM on December 1, 2023
That's a little insulting to those of us who watched it and are, for the most part, pretty okay with ourselves.
Sorry to have derailed the thread. I really more meant that I would find the experience of watching such a debate extremely unpleasant and wouldn’t want to put myself through it. I am deeply skeptical that there’s any potential for productive exchange in this kind of format, and certainly none with Ron Desantis.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:45 AM on December 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
Sorry to have derailed the thread. I really more meant that I would find the experience of watching such a debate extremely unpleasant and wouldn’t want to put myself through it. I am deeply skeptical that there’s any potential for productive exchange in this kind of format, and certainly none with Ron Desantis.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:45 AM on December 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
The opportunity to stick a fork in weirdo DeSantis and sell Biden accomplishments (which have been impressive) on alternate reality territory sounds like a plus to me.
The same logic was applied to Bernie Sanders doing a town hall on Fox in 2020. What happened was: Sanders showed up for the town hall, absolutely killed it in terms of policy discussion, and then Fox edited it down to clips of the most awkward ninety seconds or so and only showed those for the next two months in order to memoryhole his actual appearance, which mostly worked on their audience.
They are not honest brokers and acting as if they are is foolish; they will purposely sabotage anybody even slightly left of center-right mercilessly.
posted by mightygodking at 1:13 AM on December 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
The same logic was applied to Bernie Sanders doing a town hall on Fox in 2020. What happened was: Sanders showed up for the town hall, absolutely killed it in terms of policy discussion, and then Fox edited it down to clips of the most awkward ninety seconds or so and only showed those for the next two months in order to memoryhole his actual appearance, which mostly worked on their audience.
They are not honest brokers and acting as if they are is foolish; they will purposely sabotage anybody even slightly left of center-right mercilessly.
posted by mightygodking at 1:13 AM on December 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
You mean of course President Schwarzenegger's term?
I remember it so clearly . . . um, I think?
Don't forget that there's a Schwarzenegger Presidential Library in Demolition Man.
posted by brundlefly at 7:30 AM on December 2, 2023
I remember it so clearly . . . um, I think?
Don't forget that there's a Schwarzenegger Presidential Library in Demolition Man.
posted by brundlefly at 7:30 AM on December 2, 2023
The last part of that Netflix doc sure seemed like it was a pitch for something.
posted by Artw at 9:56 AM on December 2, 2023
posted by Artw at 9:56 AM on December 2, 2023
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They are gonna Whig out.
posted by clavdivs at 5:41 PM on November 30, 2023 [6 favorites]