Barbs'n'himmler
August 23, 2023 5:50 PM Subscribe
Split-screen tonight in America: The first Republican presidential primary debate of 2024 starting in 10 minutes (moderated by Sean Hannity and featuring DeSantis, Ramaswamy, Pence, Haley, Christie, Scott, Hutchinson, and Burgum) vs. a counterprogramming interview between Tucker Carlson and Donald Trump on Twitter starting in 5. Live resources: Brian Tyler Cohen's debate livestream (with commentary) - Nitter mirror of @TuckerCarlson for those not wanting to patronize Musk/bowtie - FiveThirtyEight liveblog - NYT liveblog - Debate bingo and drinking game - MeFi chat for real-time discussion
I'm glad others are watching these; I can't bring myself to do so.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:09 PM on August 23, 2023 [30 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 6:09 PM on August 23, 2023 [30 favorites]
[Looks like the main streaming link is having technical problems, but given the alternative is registering for Fox News or using Rumble (yes, that Rumble) I trust y'all will forgive not posting a back-up link.]
posted by Rhaomi at 6:12 PM on August 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 6:12 PM on August 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
The fact that people are treating a historically dishonest individual with something like 91 felony counts against them, who stole highly confidential government documents, who led an armed insurrection against the government, and who has a record of racism and misogyny as just a normal presidential candidate is proof positive that both the governmental and political system in this country is a blazing dumpster fire of a shitshow that the media merely presents as normal. We are all victims of this situation and thoughts and prayers are never the answer.
posted by njohnson23 at 6:12 PM on August 23, 2023 [78 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 6:12 PM on August 23, 2023 [78 favorites]
I can't believe I voted for a Republican in 2000. The fuck was I thinking.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:17 PM on August 23, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:17 PM on August 23, 2023 [21 favorites]
Finally found a working non-fashy livestream, courtesy David Pakman
Tuned in just in time to hear Vivek "I worry about my childrens' futures" Ramaswamy say that climate change is a hoax. Fantastic.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:28 PM on August 23, 2023 [17 favorites]
Tuned in just in time to hear Vivek "I worry about my childrens' futures" Ramaswamy say that climate change is a hoax. Fantastic.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:28 PM on August 23, 2023 [17 favorites]
Am tickled by the current National Review Online copium: The Stage Is Being Set for a DeSantis Comeback Narrative.
posted by Sauce Trough at 6:38 PM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Sauce Trough at 6:38 PM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
The other folks aren’t even bothering to attack DeSantis. They’re all gunning for Vivek.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:52 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by leotrotsky at 6:52 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sauce Trough: "Am tickled by the current National Review Online copium: The Stage Is Being Set for a DeSantis Comeback Narrative."
second place, baby
posted by Rhaomi at 6:52 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
second place, baby
posted by Rhaomi at 6:52 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Omfg...
posted by supermedusa at 6:53 PM on August 23, 2023
posted by supermedusa at 6:53 PM on August 23, 2023
They just flashed a pic of the Fulton County Jail before going to commercial. It might be true that TFG and Murdoch are having a spat.
posted by credulous at 6:54 PM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by credulous at 6:54 PM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
I watched about two minutes of the 'debate' and it's nothing but red meat culture war shit. No real surprise.
posted by Ickster at 6:54 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Ickster at 6:54 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh no there is more than that! They’re now taking loyalty tests for TFG.
posted by credulous at 7:00 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by credulous at 7:00 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
The audience reactions are making me nostalgic for Jerry Springer.
posted by credulous at 7:01 PM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by credulous at 7:01 PM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Chris Christie: Why are you booing me? I'm right.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:04 PM on August 23, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 7:04 PM on August 23, 2023 [14 favorites]
A good live toot here. Honestly even as just text in small bites it’s a bit much to look at.
posted by Artw at 7:10 PM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:10 PM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Second Worst Dragonpit Summit Ever
posted by MonsieurPEB at 7:11 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by MonsieurPEB at 7:11 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Jesus this is awful. Is this being produced by Vince McMahon? This is not a debate, this is a group of scared old lunatics yelling at each other to try and balance :
- "I am the most Republican to ever Republican! Dems bad! Something about CHINA! And Mexico!"
- "I am super tough! Listen to how tough I sound!"
- "Uhh.. I don't want the big orange man to tweet about me or give me a nickname"
- "I swear I'm a legitimate choice here!"
No one has even answered a question yet, just taking their time to pick their onstage target and bickering back and forth while - as rightfully mentioned upthread - those in the room seem to think this is an episode of Springer.
I would be embarrassed to be an adult in that room, much less on that stage.
Congrats, Republicans. Take a good hard whiff of these lovely choices that stand before you in the wake of destruction your last messiah has wrought.
posted by revmitcz at 7:11 PM on August 23, 2023 [12 favorites]
- "I am the most Republican to ever Republican! Dems bad! Something about CHINA! And Mexico!"
- "I am super tough! Listen to how tough I sound!"
- "Uhh.. I don't want the big orange man to tweet about me or give me a nickname"
- "I swear I'm a legitimate choice here!"
No one has even answered a question yet, just taking their time to pick their onstage target and bickering back and forth while - as rightfully mentioned upthread - those in the room seem to think this is an episode of Springer.
I would be embarrassed to be an adult in that room, much less on that stage.
Congrats, Republicans. Take a good hard whiff of these lovely choices that stand before you in the wake of destruction your last messiah has wrought.
posted by revmitcz at 7:11 PM on August 23, 2023 [12 favorites]
I can’t handle this fascist fuckfest. Too depressing.
posted by Room 101 at 7:15 PM on August 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Room 101 at 7:15 PM on August 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
The other folks aren’t even bothering to attack DeSantis. They’re all gunning for Vivek.To be fair, attacking the darkest-skinned person within range is a historically proven strategy to appeal to Republican voters.
posted by Nerd of the North at 7:16 PM on August 23, 2023 [63 favorites]
The first and last time Asa Hutchinson will ever look like a badass
posted by Rhaomi at 7:19 PM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 7:19 PM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Wow, actual policy differences, and expressed almost articulately. Didn’t expect that.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:20 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:20 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Vivek is pretty wack, skin color aside
posted by supermedusa at 7:23 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by supermedusa at 7:23 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Was it Christie who called him a walking ChatGPT? That was pretty apt.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:25 PM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:25 PM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don’t think Sean Hannity is moderating this debate. It’s Bret Baier and Martha MacCallum, isn’t it?
posted by Frayed Knot at 7:29 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Frayed Knot at 7:29 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Reds just tied the game at the Angels 1-1, top of the third.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:31 PM on August 23, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 7:31 PM on August 23, 2023 [16 favorites]
Frayed Knot: "I don’t think Sean Hannity is moderating this debate. It’s Bret Baier and Martha MacCallum, isn’t it?"
Yeah my bad, I was thinking about the debate-to-be between DeSantis and Newsom (assuming Ron doesn't dissolve into a puddle of pudding by the end of the night).
posted by Rhaomi at 7:32 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah my bad, I was thinking about the debate-to-be between DeSantis and Newsom (assuming Ron doesn't dissolve into a puddle of pudding by the end of the night).
posted by Rhaomi at 7:32 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
It’s a sad state of affairs when the slate is so terrible that Chris motherfucking Christie sounds like the voice of reason.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:33 PM on August 23, 2023 [38 favorites]
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:33 PM on August 23, 2023 [38 favorites]
Christie is right on Pence and being grateful for what he did. I've often thought he didn't get enough credit and begrudging acknowledgement from political opponents always struck me as weak sauce. Glad Christie said that.
Guess Christie's not going to win the nomination. He has conviction and principles and stuff.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 7:37 PM on August 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
Guess Christie's not going to win the nomination. He has conviction and principles and stuff.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 7:37 PM on August 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
None of these losers are, they’re all working a grift.
Christie’s just trying to appeal to a different kind of chump.
posted by Artw at 7:38 PM on August 23, 2023 [16 favorites]
Christie’s just trying to appeal to a different kind of chump.
posted by Artw at 7:38 PM on August 23, 2023 [16 favorites]
Anyone else notice that Vivek is throwing the neonazi hand sign, like, constantly?
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:39 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:39 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tyler Stephenson hits a 2-run homer to give the Reds a 3-1 lead. Top of the 4th, one out.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:43 PM on August 23, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 7:43 PM on August 23, 2023 [17 favorites]
For those with a strong enough constitution to watch*, and responsible enough not to make it a drinking game*:
Electoral-Vote has made bingo cards!
*Not me
posted by armeowda at 7:45 PM on August 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
Electoral-Vote has made bingo cards!
*Not me
posted by armeowda at 7:45 PM on August 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also, if he brings up Kensington one more time, Gritty is going to appear and beat him to death with a hockey stick.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:47 PM on August 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:47 PM on August 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
YES UFO QUESTION
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:48 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:48 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
> bingo cards!
having looked, my one complaint would be replace "Jesus" with "God". these kinds of people don't really talk about Jesus very much. they mostly talk about God
posted by glonous keming at 7:49 PM on August 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
having looked, my one complaint would be replace "Jesus" with "God". these kinds of people don't really talk about Jesus very much. they mostly talk about God
posted by glonous keming at 7:49 PM on August 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
Nikki Haley winning tonight I did not see..
posted by supermedusa at 7:51 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 7:51 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
second place, baby
Vivek hopes to be the Ding Liren (circa 2022 candidates tournament) of the Republican Party. IfMagnus Trump drops out, he's ready.
posted by clawsoon at 7:51 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Vivek hopes to be the Ding Liren (circa 2022 candidates tournament) of the Republican Party. If
posted by clawsoon at 7:51 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
For those of us with a clear line between fact and fiction, this can be deeply perplexing. We assume that when someone states a fact it's either; True, False by mistake, False on purpose (a "lie"). That is not what is happening here. These lies are not attempting to be facts. They're verbal Rorschach tests. Writing prompts for fascist sheep. The winner is the one whose half-baked fiction moves into the most heads, rent free. Once they get someone tangled up in debating their talking-point smoke monster, they've won. "Ideas" (in the very loosest sense) that gain traction evolve, ones that don't are disposed of, since there's a never-ending supply of them and they cost nothing.
It's like putting a dozen ChatGPT bots in a room and seeing how long before one praises Hitler or suggests a holiday to a food bank.
posted by krisjohn at 7:56 PM on August 23, 2023 [70 favorites]
It's like putting a dozen ChatGPT bots in a room and seeing how long before one praises Hitler or suggests a holiday to a food bank.
posted by krisjohn at 7:56 PM on August 23, 2023 [70 favorites]
Family members here in Canada are disappointed* they aren't able to watch. They don't subscribe to Fox News, and that seems to be the only TV channel carrying it, which we weren't expecting because I was seeing reports that it was supposed to be on Fox (sans News) and that is part of their basic cable packages. (Yes, I know it was also online, but they don't watch things online.)
I know Fox News and the Republican Party are two peas in a pod, but that's a terrible way to handle political debate. Those kinds of events should be open to as broad a public audience as possible. It wouldn't have killed Fox to slot the debate into its regular-channel programming instead of the Master Chef rerun (or whatever it was that they were showing) and air it alongside Fox News. Yeah, yeah, I know. The Fox News audience is nothing but Republican voters, but does the party have no desire to expand its voter base? I'm sure there must be some R-leaning types who don't have a Fox News subscription.
*I should note, they were disappointed not because they're right wingers, but they were looking forward to the clown-show aspect of the "debate."
posted by sardonyx at 7:57 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
I know Fox News and the Republican Party are two peas in a pod, but that's a terrible way to handle political debate. Those kinds of events should be open to as broad a public audience as possible. It wouldn't have killed Fox to slot the debate into its regular-channel programming instead of the Master Chef rerun (or whatever it was that they were showing) and air it alongside Fox News. Yeah, yeah, I know. The Fox News audience is nothing but Republican voters, but does the party have no desire to expand its voter base? I'm sure there must be some R-leaning types who don't have a Fox News subscription.
*I should note, they were disappointed not because they're right wingers, but they were looking forward to the clown-show aspect of the "debate."
posted by sardonyx at 7:57 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Fox News audience is nothing but Republican voters, but does the party have no desire to expand its voter base?
they literally do not. i mean they wouldn't be opposed* if more people started voting republican, but their game plan for quite some time has been gerrymandering and voter suppression rather than tailoring their message to appeal to a larger share of the electorate
*other than that it might indicate their policies are a little too inclusive and they should tighten things up a skosh to make sure no one gets the wrong idea
posted by logicpunk at 8:10 PM on August 23, 2023 [27 favorites]
they literally do not. i mean they wouldn't be opposed* if more people started voting republican, but their game plan for quite some time has been gerrymandering and voter suppression rather than tailoring their message to appeal to a larger share of the electorate
*other than that it might indicate their policies are a little too inclusive and they should tighten things up a skosh to make sure no one gets the wrong idea
posted by logicpunk at 8:10 PM on August 23, 2023 [27 favorites]
Interestingly, no one seems to be live-commenting on the Trump interview.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:14 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dip Flash at 8:14 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
I feel like I've won the debate by not being there too. I didn't even have to get arrested.
posted by adept256 at 8:18 PM on August 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 8:18 PM on August 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
Rolling Stone: While #GOPDebate opponents tore at each other on Fox News, Trump and Tucker discussed how Biden looks in a bathing suit, how many people we lost “to the mosquito” building the Panama Canal, and how unfair water efficiency standards on home appliances are.
Sounds delightful, except for the company. And now I am going to hear SNL's James Austin Johnson phrasing "mosquito" for the next 48 hours.
posted by credulous at 8:19 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sounds delightful, except for the company. And now I am going to hear SNL's James Austin Johnson phrasing "mosquito" for the next 48 hours.
posted by credulous at 8:19 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
It wouldn't have killed Fox to slot the debate into its regular-channel programming
It might not have killed Fox, but Murdoch & the RNC absolutely do not want the general public watching this. I haven't even watched a second of this myself and I can tell you just from the comments here & elsewhere on the web that virtually none of what these candidates is spouting makes a lick of sense unless you're neck deep in the Fox News Cinematic Universe. This is the kind of shit that makes even low-info voters go "WTF !!!???" They might not be able to rein in Trump come the general campaign, but they don't want to spread the knowledge that the rest of the party hacks are just as bugfuck. Because that'll lose them down-ballot votes. It's a tent revival for the True Faithful, and they want to keep the snake handling hidden so later on all these ripe sucks can go on CNN and pretend that they're just clean cut missionaries spreading the word of rational Republican faith so make sure you vote for your US House Rep with an "R" next to their name.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:19 PM on August 23, 2023 [43 favorites]
It might not have killed Fox, but Murdoch & the RNC absolutely do not want the general public watching this. I haven't even watched a second of this myself and I can tell you just from the comments here & elsewhere on the web that virtually none of what these candidates is spouting makes a lick of sense unless you're neck deep in the Fox News Cinematic Universe. This is the kind of shit that makes even low-info voters go "WTF !!!???" They might not be able to rein in Trump come the general campaign, but they don't want to spread the knowledge that the rest of the party hacks are just as bugfuck. Because that'll lose them down-ballot votes. It's a tent revival for the True Faithful, and they want to keep the snake handling hidden so later on all these ripe sucks can go on CNN and pretend that they're just clean cut missionaries spreading the word of rational Republican faith so make sure you vote for your US House Rep with an "R" next to their name.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:19 PM on August 23, 2023 [43 favorites]
Dip Flash: "Interestingly, no one seems to be live-commenting on the Trump interview."
I mean it's basically an episode of Tucker Carlson, so, understandable.
(Here's the Nitter mirror of the whole 46-minute infomercial.)
posted by Rhaomi at 8:22 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean it's basically an episode of Tucker Carlson, so, understandable.
(Here's the Nitter mirror of the whole 46-minute infomercial.)
posted by Rhaomi at 8:22 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tucker by Chadwick Moore sells just 3,227 copies in first week after publication on 1 August, Publishers Weekly figures reveal
If he were still on fox, this dogshit biography would be on the best-seller list. The machine has ways of doing this, but the machine isn't working for him anymore. He's on xitter. His destiny is q-blogging and guest spots on infowars.
posted by adept256 at 8:31 PM on August 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
If he were still on fox, this dogshit biography would be on the best-seller list. The machine has ways of doing this, but the machine isn't working for him anymore. He's on xitter. His destiny is q-blogging and guest spots on infowars.
posted by adept256 at 8:31 PM on August 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
The Guardian* inserted some Trump/Calson updates into its debate blog. It also has the full assortment of booking photos. I swear I've never seen a mug shot where the person looked as happy as Jenna Ellis.
*Yes, I know all about why it's a terrible site, we can skip the derail, especially since this whole discussion is about terrible people who do terrible things. While I don't normally read the site, it was the best and quickest live blog of the debate I could find.
posted by sardonyx at 8:37 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
*Yes, I know all about why it's a terrible site, we can skip the derail, especially since this whole discussion is about terrible people who do terrible things. While I don't normally read the site, it was the best and quickest live blog of the debate I could find.
posted by sardonyx at 8:37 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
I managed 2 whole minutes, which was enough. Bizarre, to say the least, the the most powerful country that has ever existed is presenting this as a slate of candidates for one of its 2 political parties.
Anyways, a portrait of De Santis I did a little while ago, trying out something slightly different as far as my ghastly renderings of ghastly people go.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 8:37 PM on August 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
Anyways, a portrait of De Santis I did a little while ago, trying out something slightly different as far as my ghastly renderings of ghastly people go.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 8:37 PM on August 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
I found it reassuring that the crowd was decidedly anti-Russia and Pro-Ukraine. I get the sense that Pence will get a big bounce. DeSantis is done for and also Vivek. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Pence/Christie as the Republican clean slate ticket.
posted by interogative mood at 8:50 PM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 8:50 PM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
The bingo cards should have included "culture of life".
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:50 PM on August 23, 2023
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:50 PM on August 23, 2023
I VOTED FOR CAMACHO
posted by not_on_display at 9:06 PM on August 23, 2023 [12 favorites]
I haven't even watched a second of this myself and I can tell you just from the comments here & elsewhere on the web that virtually none of what these candidates is spouting makes a lick of sense unless you're neck deep in the Fox News Cinematic Universe.
You should probably watch it before making such an assessment. If you think that's what's happening based on online responses, I'm afraid you've entered the echo chamber and are just as entrenched as you accuse Fox News Viewers to be. Because what you describe is NOT what I just made myself sit through.
I was struck how sane and reasonable most of the candidates were. I shouldn't have been, but I assumed the trumpification of politics was going to make everyone on stage a little crazy; the same way everyone was batshit after the first republican debate in 2016. But what you're describing really was only Desantis and Ramaswamy and a little bit of Scott. The rest, while I disagreed strongly with most of their agendas, were not pandering to the most extreme elements to see what stuck. Most were more principled than I expected. I disagreed with those principles, some deeply. But they were not, as you characterized, "bugfuck".
If Murdoch were interested in the good word on the right, he would be broadcasting this on Fox during primetime. I went into this expecting bugfuckery and entertainment. You obviously thought there was buckfuckery. That is apparently the narrative in your media circles. I mean maybe Murdoch himself thought there would be bugfuckery to hide and he was as surprised as me.
Maybe I'm cynical, but I think we on the left would be in some real trouble if a broader audience watched this. It benefits us the most to think all of them are fucking crazy and write off the more reasonable but less media quotable candidates.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 9:42 PM on August 23, 2023 [24 favorites]
You should probably watch it before making such an assessment. If you think that's what's happening based on online responses, I'm afraid you've entered the echo chamber and are just as entrenched as you accuse Fox News Viewers to be. Because what you describe is NOT what I just made myself sit through.
I was struck how sane and reasonable most of the candidates were. I shouldn't have been, but I assumed the trumpification of politics was going to make everyone on stage a little crazy; the same way everyone was batshit after the first republican debate in 2016. But what you're describing really was only Desantis and Ramaswamy and a little bit of Scott. The rest, while I disagreed strongly with most of their agendas, were not pandering to the most extreme elements to see what stuck. Most were more principled than I expected. I disagreed with those principles, some deeply. But they were not, as you characterized, "bugfuck".
If Murdoch were interested in the good word on the right, he would be broadcasting this on Fox during primetime. I went into this expecting bugfuckery and entertainment. You obviously thought there was buckfuckery. That is apparently the narrative in your media circles. I mean maybe Murdoch himself thought there would be bugfuckery to hide and he was as surprised as me.
Maybe I'm cynical, but I think we on the left would be in some real trouble if a broader audience watched this. It benefits us the most to think all of them are fucking crazy and write off the more reasonable but less media quotable candidates.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 9:42 PM on August 23, 2023 [24 favorites]
So.... The good Republicans vote against human rights in private, but the bad ones rant about it in public? Same old story, now with more Overton?
posted by Jacen at 9:56 PM on August 23, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 9:56 PM on August 23, 2023 [11 favorites]
I mean, same as it ever was?
My point was not the positions but the problem with taking information second hand and not recognizing the filter bubble you're living in. It's how elections are lost.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:06 PM on August 23, 2023 [11 favorites]
My point was not the positions but the problem with taking information second hand and not recognizing the filter bubble you're living in. It's how elections are lost.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:06 PM on August 23, 2023 [11 favorites]
Pence raising his hand to say he'd support Trump in 2024 was one of the most pathetic things I've ever seen on a television screen. Mike, that fucker's goons were chanting about hanging you while they stormed the capitol, and in response he released a video where he told them he loved them.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:20 PM on August 23, 2023 [68 favorites]
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:20 PM on August 23, 2023 [68 favorites]
Just to be sure we are on the same subject, the Republican Party whose debate this thread is ... whatever we are doing here ... the Republican Party has as the front runner of that party's leader for this country is getting booked tomorrow to a jail.
That person, that is not there at this presidential debate, that person is better off right now as we speak to carry the nomination statistically than any of these people.
And yet we, here, us, these few band of digital esprit de corps in this space are the misinformed echo chambered.
OK, then.
ok, then
ok, then
posted by MonsieurPEB at 10:49 PM on August 23, 2023 [21 favorites]
That person, that is not there at this presidential debate, that person is better off right now as we speak to carry the nomination statistically than any of these people.
And yet we, here, us, these few band of digital esprit de corps in this space are the misinformed echo chambered.
OK, then.
ok, then
ok, then
posted by MonsieurPEB at 10:49 PM on August 23, 2023 [21 favorites]
I lose elections because my vote for President hasn't counted in the 42 years I've lived in Texas. Because the people who don't advocate wanting me dead can win the popular vote but red states mean that doesn't always matter. Because some of my family votes Republican and prays for my soul while doing so. I lose elections because one of the worst people to be president committed crimes in public, loudly and frequently, and his followers turned out in droves to vote for him again. Republican refusal to wear masks in a pandemic meant I didn't get to stay in a hospital with a loved one.
Republicans now come in two flavors, in my opinion. The ones who want me and mine to be second or third class humans at best, and consider that a kindness. Then there's the ones who want me actively gone, preferably in a ditch. There's a venomous raptor running, and then there's a venomous rabid raptor with machine guns and missiles and a cult. I see them perfectly clearly. There is no such thing as a good Republican. It's abundantly obvious what they believe, what they vote for, what laws they get passed in their name.
posted by Jacen at 10:59 PM on August 23, 2023 [66 favorites]
Republicans now come in two flavors, in my opinion. The ones who want me and mine to be second or third class humans at best, and consider that a kindness. Then there's the ones who want me actively gone, preferably in a ditch. There's a venomous raptor running, and then there's a venomous rabid raptor with machine guns and missiles and a cult. I see them perfectly clearly. There is no such thing as a good Republican. It's abundantly obvious what they believe, what they vote for, what laws they get passed in their name.
posted by Jacen at 10:59 PM on August 23, 2023 [66 favorites]
Pence raising his hand to say he'd support Trump in 2024 was one of the most pathetic things I've ever seen on a television screen.
That's somehow out-Cruzing Cruz.
posted by brundlefly at 11:04 PM on August 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
That's somehow out-Cruzing Cruz.
posted by brundlefly at 11:04 PM on August 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
Pence raising his hand to say he'd support Trump in 2024 was one of the most pathetic things I've ever seen on a television screen.
Pence was principled and decisive when it mattered which is why it is so surprising when he so quickly goes back to his normal spineless, opportunistic, weak willed self.
Heck, two weeks ago he strongly denounced Trump. Is he schizophrenic? I think I had it right--spineless and opportunistic with occasional hiccups of honor which he immediately recovers from in embarrassment.
posted by eye of newt at 12:08 AM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Pence was principled and decisive when it mattered which is why it is so surprising when he so quickly goes back to his normal spineless, opportunistic, weak willed self.
Heck, two weeks ago he strongly denounced Trump. Is he schizophrenic? I think I had it right--spineless and opportunistic with occasional hiccups of honor which he immediately recovers from in embarrassment.
posted by eye of newt at 12:08 AM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
The only thing that I could think about during this shit show was, “Damn, SNL is going to be GREAT this week….ah hell!!”
posted by pearlybob at 3:03 AM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by pearlybob at 3:03 AM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Pence was principled and decisive when it mattered
I mean, he called Dan Quayle to ask “What do you think I should do?” but whatever it takes to get you there.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:13 AM on August 24, 2023 [19 favorites]
I mean, he called Dan Quayle to ask “What do you think I should do?” but whatever it takes to get you there.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:13 AM on August 24, 2023 [19 favorites]
can't believe I voted for a Republican in 2000.
I was still proudly, adamantly apolitical back then and recall thinking "Gosh, his dad must be so proud of him for reaching the same lofty heights".
Then the second Iraq war happened and I was throwing eggs at the US embassy like everyone else. Change happened fast.
posted by CynicalKnight at 4:26 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was still proudly, adamantly apolitical back then and recall thinking "Gosh, his dad must be so proud of him for reaching the same lofty heights".
Then the second Iraq war happened and I was throwing eggs at the US embassy like everyone else. Change happened fast.
posted by CynicalKnight at 4:26 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Who won, who lost (Politico)
Winners and losers (WaPo)
Who came out on top? (BBC)
Highlights (Reuters)
Takeaways (CNN)
posted by box at 4:42 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Winners and losers (WaPo)
Who came out on top? (BBC)
Highlights (Reuters)
Takeaways (CNN)
posted by box at 4:42 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
The repeated promises of lower taxes are a hell of a drug.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:25 AM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:25 AM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Is he schizophrenic? I think I had it right--spineless and opportunistic with occasional hiccups of honor which he immediately recovers from in embarrassment.
There is a reason I refer to Mike Pence as The Mayonnaise That Walks Like A Man.
I didn't watch it - I had better things to do, like avoiding massive projectile vomiting, and also I already knew I would not vote for a Republican in my lifetime. They could have visions of Jesus appearing before them to chastise them, change their ways, publically apologize for their evils, work to undo them and to make things better, and donate all their money to decent* charitable organizations, and then come to me personally and give me the money to get my transition surgeries and I still would not vote for them.
* i.e. The Trevor Project or Feeding America, not the Salvation Army or the AllianceDenyingDefending Freedom.
posted by mephron at 5:32 AM on August 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
There is a reason I refer to Mike Pence as The Mayonnaise That Walks Like A Man.
I didn't watch it - I had better things to do, like avoiding massive projectile vomiting, and also I already knew I would not vote for a Republican in my lifetime. They could have visions of Jesus appearing before them to chastise them, change their ways, publically apologize for their evils, work to undo them and to make things better, and donate all their money to decent* charitable organizations, and then come to me personally and give me the money to get my transition surgeries and I still would not vote for them.
* i.e. The Trevor Project or Feeding America, not the Salvation Army or the Alliance
posted by mephron at 5:32 AM on August 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
And yet we, here, us, these few band of digital esprit de corps in this space are the misinformed echo chambered.
I’m not sure why you present it as an either/or.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:34 AM on August 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’m not sure why you present it as an either/or.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:34 AM on August 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, if he brings up Kensington one more time, Gritty is going to appear and beat him to death with a hockey stick.
Can someone fill me in? Who is talking about Kensington and in what context?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:50 AM on August 24, 2023
Can someone fill me in? Who is talking about Kensington and in what context?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:50 AM on August 24, 2023
> "But what you're describing really was only Desantis and Ramaswamy and a little bit of Scott."
I did not watch it and have no real opinion on this, but I will say I'm not certain that "only the two people polling even remotely well among the Republican electorate sounded insane" is a slam dunk argument for the reasonableness of Republican politics at the moment.
posted by kyrademon at 6:07 AM on August 24, 2023 [20 favorites]
I did not watch it and have no real opinion on this, but I will say I'm not certain that "only the two people polling even remotely well among the Republican electorate sounded insane" is a slam dunk argument for the reasonableness of Republican politics at the moment.
posted by kyrademon at 6:07 AM on August 24, 2023 [20 favorites]
but I assumed the trumpification of politics was going to make everyone on stage a little crazy
Six of eight Republican presidential candidates at the Milwaukee debate would support Donald Trump as nominee even if he's convicted
No matter how 'reasonable' the rest of the debate was, when asked if they'd support the candidacy of someone they're nominally running against--someone who literally lead an insurrection to overturn the results of the previous election--three quarters of the Republicans in the debate answered "yes".
That's bugfuck insane.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:16 AM on August 24, 2023 [36 favorites]
Six of eight Republican presidential candidates at the Milwaukee debate would support Donald Trump as nominee even if he's convicted
No matter how 'reasonable' the rest of the debate was, when asked if they'd support the candidacy of someone they're nominally running against--someone who literally lead an insurrection to overturn the results of the previous election--three quarters of the Republicans in the debate answered "yes".
That's bugfuck insane.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:16 AM on August 24, 2023 [36 favorites]
Pence raising his hand to say he'd support Trump in 2024 was one of the most pathetic things I've ever seen on a television screen. Mike, that fucker's goons were chanting about hanging you while they stormed the capitol, and in response he released a video where he told them he loved them.
There is a really weird psycho-sexual dynamic between the GOP and Trump. In the spirit of "every accusation is a confession," I am reminded of this whenever I see someone on the right calling people "cucks." If they wanted to act any more subservient, they'd have to lay on their backs and pee on themselves like a scared puppy.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:42 AM on August 24, 2023 [13 favorites]
There is a really weird psycho-sexual dynamic between the GOP and Trump. In the spirit of "every accusation is a confession," I am reminded of this whenever I see someone on the right calling people "cucks." If they wanted to act any more subservient, they'd have to lay on their backs and pee on themselves like a scared puppy.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:42 AM on August 24, 2023 [13 favorites]
I mean, same as it ever was?
My point was not the positions but the problem with taking information second hand and not recognizing the filter bubble you're living in. It's how elections are lost.
I really disagree with this. The positions staked out in conversation on stage may seem fine but it just takes a brief clip of them talking about something else to really dig into how nuts some of them are. And even for the ones that aren't nuts, there are deep issues. Take Christie. He talks a big game about being the normal, moral candidate but he leveraged the power of his state against a town when he was in power over what, verbal criticism by that town's mayor? And it hurt every one in that town and everyone commuting in upstream of that town. IIRC, there were deaths attributed because the gridlock kept ambulances from moving about as required.
The man might be as vindictive as Trump and is way more capable of actually making his political enemies feel the pain. And he's the normal one!
posted by Slackermagee at 6:46 AM on August 24, 2023 [35 favorites]
My point was not the positions but the problem with taking information second hand and not recognizing the filter bubble you're living in. It's how elections are lost.
I really disagree with this. The positions staked out in conversation on stage may seem fine but it just takes a brief clip of them talking about something else to really dig into how nuts some of them are. And even for the ones that aren't nuts, there are deep issues. Take Christie. He talks a big game about being the normal, moral candidate but he leveraged the power of his state against a town when he was in power over what, verbal criticism by that town's mayor? And it hurt every one in that town and everyone commuting in upstream of that town. IIRC, there were deaths attributed because the gridlock kept ambulances from moving about as required.
The man might be as vindictive as Trump and is way more capable of actually making his political enemies feel the pain. And he's the normal one!
posted by Slackermagee at 6:46 AM on August 24, 2023 [35 favorites]
No matter how 'reasonable' the rest of the debate was, when asked if they'd support the candidacy of someone they're nominally running against--someone who literally lead an insurrection to overturn the results of the previous election--three quarters of the Republicans in the debate answered "yes".
That's bugfuck insane.
Not if you're playing to be VP to an 80 year old, which is what this is.
posted by kingdead at 6:53 AM on August 24, 2023 [13 favorites]
That's bugfuck insane.
Not if you're playing to be VP to an 80 year old, which is what this is.
posted by kingdead at 6:53 AM on August 24, 2023 [13 favorites]
all the extremely sober and reasoned answers on policy during these things means precisely zero. it is a bit of play-acting, a fun little masque where everyone pretends to be a statesman and to have principles and to embody all the virtues they think make them electable. if you watch a debate and think 'wow they seem surprisingly not-crazy' you have been taken in. like who cares how good their take on climate change is when they're all about 2 well-aimed questions away from explaining how they would let the world burn if they could rule the ashes.
posted by logicpunk at 6:56 AM on August 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by logicpunk at 6:56 AM on August 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think it's possible Bridgegate was done by an overenthusiastic underling rather than especially Christie's fault. I stifl wouldn't support him because of abortion, but he doesn't seem to tend torward random assholery.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:57 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:57 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
he doesn't seem to tend torward random assholery.
Chris Christie Closed New Jersey's State Beaches — And Then Went To The Beach
With his trademark brusqueness, Christie told state residents how they could enjoy the beach.
"Run for governor, and you can have a residence there," he said.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:59 AM on August 24, 2023 [24 favorites]
Chris Christie Closed New Jersey's State Beaches — And Then Went To The Beach
With his trademark brusqueness, Christie told state residents how they could enjoy the beach.
"Run for governor, and you can have a residence there," he said.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:59 AM on August 24, 2023 [24 favorites]
An Oliver-North-Like took the fall for Bridgegate but I'm sure every mayor in New Jersey knew the real score there.
posted by Slackermagee at 7:03 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Slackermagee at 7:03 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
As someone who's sitting in North Dakota right now, whose governor is Doug Burgum, the fact that his name came up in this thread zero times...yeah, we don't know why you'd want to talk about him either.
(I've met the guy briefly years ago; he's just a guy who made a lot of money starting companies, one of which was sold to Microsoft, and hegentrified revitalized Fargo's downtown, so he's good at making business succeed; politics seem more about keeping name recognition than any aspiration to do anything with it)
I actually live in Minnesota, where I am much happier with our governor's performance
posted by AzraelBrown at 7:10 AM on August 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
(I've met the guy briefly years ago; he's just a guy who made a lot of money starting companies, one of which was sold to Microsoft, and he
I actually live in Minnesota, where I am much happier with our governor's performance
posted by AzraelBrown at 7:10 AM on August 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Pence raising his hand to say he'd support Trump in 2024 was one of the most pathetic things I've ever seen on a television screen. Mike, that fucker's goons were chanting about hanging you while they stormed the capitol, and in response he released a video where he told them he loved them.
This loyalty question was by far the most interesting moment of the whole debate. There was really no other option for any of them; they all know the score and realize not raising their hand would effectively kill their shot at VP. The hand raise was the only reasonable play, even if it didn’t make sense when taken in the larger context. You could see this train of thought play out as almost no one immediately raised their hands, and Pence took longer than most; it was a really noticeable delay.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:11 AM on August 24, 2023 [10 favorites]
This loyalty question was by far the most interesting moment of the whole debate. There was really no other option for any of them; they all know the score and realize not raising their hand would effectively kill their shot at VP. The hand raise was the only reasonable play, even if it didn’t make sense when taken in the larger context. You could see this train of thought play out as almost no one immediately raised their hands, and Pence took longer than most; it was a really noticeable delay.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:11 AM on August 24, 2023 [10 favorites]
Can someone fill me in? Who is talking about Kensington and in what context?
Ramaswamy brought it up a couple of times when talking about the drug problem in America; it seems to be a particular favorite topic of his.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:18 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ramaswamy brought it up a couple of times when talking about the drug problem in America; it seems to be a particular favorite topic of his.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:18 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
[Tucker Carlson] He's on xitter. His destiny is q-blogging and guest spots on infowars.
Tucker will be fine, he's got money. Perhaps in 2024 as he runs for the presidency people can contrast his cashflow VS his everyman persona.
posted by rough ashlar at 7:27 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tucker will be fine, he's got money. Perhaps in 2024 as he runs for the presidency people can contrast his cashflow VS his everyman persona.
posted by rough ashlar at 7:27 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Do you feel the Bur-gum-entum?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:42 AM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:42 AM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm honestly puzzled that they bothered having a "debate", or even a primary. The current Republican Party Platform is LITERALLY just a statement that the Republican Party agrees with everything Donald Trump says and will fully back him in his every action.
Trump is going to be the candidate.
And Vivik and Haley are fooling no one but themselves if they think they've got a shot at even VP. There is no way the party of white supreamcy is going to nominate either of them for anything.
All in all it was basically an episode of Springer or some other reality TV crap. It will mean absolutely nothing, the real star wasn't anywhere near what was happening, and probably none of them are even going to get the consolation prize of VP.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Trump picked Ivanka as his VP, and you know the MAGA hats would eat that up. They've been openly calling for an eternal Trump dynasty ruling the USA since he got into office the first time.
posted by sotonohito at 7:43 AM on August 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
Trump is going to be the candidate.
And Vivik and Haley are fooling no one but themselves if they think they've got a shot at even VP. There is no way the party of white supreamcy is going to nominate either of them for anything.
All in all it was basically an episode of Springer or some other reality TV crap. It will mean absolutely nothing, the real star wasn't anywhere near what was happening, and probably none of them are even going to get the consolation prize of VP.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Trump picked Ivanka as his VP, and you know the MAGA hats would eat that up. They've been openly calling for an eternal Trump dynasty ruling the USA since he got into office the first time.
posted by sotonohito at 7:43 AM on August 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
DeSantis saying he would tell Fauci, "You're fired" was quite a sad bit of Trump cosplay.
posted by HeroZero at 7:48 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by HeroZero at 7:48 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ugh. all of it, just ugh.
posted by bluesky43 at 7:51 AM on August 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 7:51 AM on August 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
He said he would... fire a man who quit eight months ago? What?
posted by kyrademon at 8:15 AM on August 24, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by kyrademon at 8:15 AM on August 24, 2023 [23 favorites]
I’m not sure why anyone is surprised at the pledge to support Trump - “I will support the eventual choice of the Party” is fairly normal on both sides of the aisle, isn’t it? I’m not saying I wouldn’t have loved to see them do otherwise, but everyone up there on stage is still (in their heads) doing Normal Politics and saying you won’t run as a spoiler if someone else is chosen is a Normal Politics thing.
I was interested not because I think it’s going to matter this time around (Trump will be the nominee), but because I’m pretty sure this will be roughly the same slate in 2028 and it probably will matter then - assuming Trump loses next year, one of this crew will likely be taking on the Democratic nominee, and given that this is a country where third terms in the White House for a single party are rare as hens teeth….
I’m now pretty depressed.
posted by AdamCSnider at 8:20 AM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I was interested not because I think it’s going to matter this time around (Trump will be the nominee), but because I’m pretty sure this will be roughly the same slate in 2028 and it probably will matter then - assuming Trump loses next year, one of this crew will likely be taking on the Democratic nominee, and given that this is a country where third terms in the White House for a single party are rare as hens teeth….
I’m now pretty depressed.
posted by AdamCSnider at 8:20 AM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
...The current Republican Party Platform is LITERALLY just a statement that the Republican Party agrees with everything Donald Trump says and will fully back him in his every action.
I read stuff like this, and see the shock expressed that the other Republican candidates confirmed they would support Trump if he was the Republican nominee... do you folks not understand how your own political system works (or malfunctions)?
[on review, agreeing with AdamCSnider]
posted by Artful Codger at 8:24 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
I read stuff like this, and see the shock expressed that the other Republican candidates confirmed they would support Trump if he was the Republican nominee... do you folks not understand how your own political system works (or malfunctions)?
[on review, agreeing with AdamCSnider]
posted by Artful Codger at 8:24 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
“I will support the eventual choice of the Party” is fairly normal on both sides of the aisle, isn’t it?
Fairly normal when the nominee isn't currently facing 91 indictments for organizing an armed insurrection, attempting to overthrow an election, and keeping highly classified nuclear secrets in a storage room at their beach house.
Continuing to pretend that everything is normal despite the overwhelming evidence that it is not is how we lose the country.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:25 AM on August 24, 2023 [15 favorites]
Fairly normal when the nominee isn't currently facing 91 indictments for organizing an armed insurrection, attempting to overthrow an election, and keeping highly classified nuclear secrets in a storage room at their beach house.
Continuing to pretend that everything is normal despite the overwhelming evidence that it is not is how we lose the country.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:25 AM on August 24, 2023 [15 favorites]
Lol, I skimmed Vivek’s op ed on Kensington. This is the first line:
“ I visited Kensington, a northeast Philadelphia neighborhood”
What an idiot. For those not from here, Northeast Philadelphia is a specific place (kinda like South Carolina), there’s no northeast (lower case) Philadelphia, nor is there an east Philadelphia.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:27 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
“ I visited Kensington, a northeast Philadelphia neighborhood”
What an idiot. For those not from here, Northeast Philadelphia is a specific place (kinda like South Carolina), there’s no northeast (lower case) Philadelphia, nor is there an east Philadelphia.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:27 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's lot of time between now and Nov. 2024 for the dynamics of the race to change, for good or for bad. For that matter, there's a theoretical possibility that something could change by the end of the year.
But what that change would be, I don't know--just that there's time for "something" to happen.
Last night's debate didn't change anything.
"If the election were held today"--it's not, but if it were--probably Democrats win the electoral college, but not by a lot. There's also a chance that if Republicans sweep GA, AZ, NV, and get one more Midwestern state, probably WI, Republicans would just barely win. And if you'd like an even worse outcome, there's a plausible 269 to 269 electoral college tie that you can get by dividing ME and NE single votes. In that scenario, the race goes to the House of Representatives for a likely Republican win.
Overall, advantage to Democrats in the presidential race, but it's a small advantage, and it's early.
Until something changes, Trump and his behavior will continue to drive away a small slice of Republican votes that they need to win, and the also-rans in the race won't do anything to knock out Trump or convince the majority of Republicans to abandon him.
My biggest worry is a "fascism with a friendly face" candidate entering the race--somebody who the media anoints as "likeable" but is just as dangerous as Trump. DeSantis was supposed to be that person at one point, but he's been exposed as a monster jerk. Nobody else has any charisma or momentum. For the moment at least, that worry hasn't materialized.
posted by gimonca at 8:29 AM on August 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
But what that change would be, I don't know--just that there's time for "something" to happen.
Last night's debate didn't change anything.
"If the election were held today"--it's not, but if it were--probably Democrats win the electoral college, but not by a lot. There's also a chance that if Republicans sweep GA, AZ, NV, and get one more Midwestern state, probably WI, Republicans would just barely win. And if you'd like an even worse outcome, there's a plausible 269 to 269 electoral college tie that you can get by dividing ME and NE single votes. In that scenario, the race goes to the House of Representatives for a likely Republican win.
Overall, advantage to Democrats in the presidential race, but it's a small advantage, and it's early.
Until something changes, Trump and his behavior will continue to drive away a small slice of Republican votes that they need to win, and the also-rans in the race won't do anything to knock out Trump or convince the majority of Republicans to abandon him.
My biggest worry is a "fascism with a friendly face" candidate entering the race--somebody who the media anoints as "likeable" but is just as dangerous as Trump. DeSantis was supposed to be that person at one point, but he's been exposed as a monster jerk. Nobody else has any charisma or momentum. For the moment at least, that worry hasn't materialized.
posted by gimonca at 8:29 AM on August 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
I assume it’s a standard “[urban area] is dying!!” editorial?
posted by Artw at 8:29 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 8:29 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
>> Pence raising his hand to say he'd support Trump in 2024 was one of the most pathetic things I've ever seen on a television screen.
> That's somehow out-Cruzing Cruz.
On the other hand, getting out-Cruzed is like... classic Cruz.
Is this the Gen-X thread? Young lady, do you have smoothies here?
posted by Rat Spatula at 8:30 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
> That's somehow out-Cruzing Cruz.
On the other hand, getting out-Cruzed is like... classic Cruz.
Is this the Gen-X thread? Young lady, do you have smoothies here?
posted by Rat Spatula at 8:30 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
DeSantis saying he would tell Fauci, "You're fired" was quite a sad bit of Trump cosplay.
It is more of a ding on Trump, who despite his bluster never fired Fauci. Both Trump and DeSantis did horribly with their covid responses, but they were horrible differently and DeSantis is trying to use his covid track record as a differentiator.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:35 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
It is more of a ding on Trump, who despite his bluster never fired Fauci. Both Trump and DeSantis did horribly with their covid responses, but they were horrible differently and DeSantis is trying to use his covid track record as a differentiator.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:35 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Vivek and Haley are fooling no one but themselves if they think they've got a shot at even VP. There is no way the party of white supremacy is going to nominate either of them for anything.
I don't know. Here in the UK we have a right-wing government in thrall to the far right, and multiple politicians of colour have risen high within it-- as long as they're willing to endorse racism and xenophobia with great enthusiasm. As long as they do that, racist voters are happy to use them as a "see, I'm not racist" fig leaf.
posted by Pallas Athena at 8:35 AM on August 24, 2023 [23 favorites]
I don't know. Here in the UK we have a right-wing government in thrall to the far right, and multiple politicians of colour have risen high within it-- as long as they're willing to endorse racism and xenophobia with great enthusiasm. As long as they do that, racist voters are happy to use them as a "see, I'm not racist" fig leaf.
posted by Pallas Athena at 8:35 AM on August 24, 2023 [23 favorites]
Same in the US, the degree to which people fall for it is variable. Tends to be super effective with “liberal” media and those aligned with rainbow capitalism.
posted by Artw at 8:45 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 8:45 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Pence was principled and decisive when it mattered
Or was motivated less by the conviction that the January 6 coup attempt was wrong and more by the fear that the Putsch would fail and the repercussions for its participants and enablers would be severe. But I have absolutely no right to put such thoughts in this person's head. Instead let's judge these people by their words and deeds, and in each case they offered free and full-throated support of Trump and his administration's actions; Christie for example only broke with Team Trump when the latter went full-bore with the stolen-election bullshit after their defeat. There's nothing in these individuals' records as elected officials or public figures that leads me to believe they would have at all opposed the horrible actions of the previous administration even in the absence of Trump. It's like saying that because of his reported droll and self-deprecating sense of humour, you'd rather have a beer with Goering than Goebbels or Himmler; never forget that they're all monsters.
posted by hangashore at 9:06 AM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Or was motivated less by the conviction that the January 6 coup attempt was wrong and more by the fear that the Putsch would fail and the repercussions for its participants and enablers would be severe. But I have absolutely no right to put such thoughts in this person's head. Instead let's judge these people by their words and deeds, and in each case they offered free and full-throated support of Trump and his administration's actions; Christie for example only broke with Team Trump when the latter went full-bore with the stolen-election bullshit after their defeat. There's nothing in these individuals' records as elected officials or public figures that leads me to believe they would have at all opposed the horrible actions of the previous administration even in the absence of Trump. It's like saying that because of his reported droll and self-deprecating sense of humour, you'd rather have a beer with Goering than Goebbels or Himmler; never forget that they're all monsters.
posted by hangashore at 9:06 AM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Vivek and Haley are fooling no one but themselves if they think they've got a shot at even VP. There is no way the party of white supremacy is going to nominate either of them for anything.
Vivek no, because the vibes are too similar, Haley absolutely yes if they're serious. She doesn't pick up a state but having a PoC woman on the ticket really takes a lot of the sting out of the anti Trump attacks.
posted by kingdead at 9:19 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Vivek no, because the vibes are too similar, Haley absolutely yes if they're serious. She doesn't pick up a state but having a PoC woman on the ticket really takes a lot of the sting out of the anti Trump attacks.
posted by kingdead at 9:19 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
My favorite description of the night comes from @OsitaNwanevu:
Vivek delivering pure, uncut sociopathic millennial energy. Getting Model UN flashbacks.
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:31 AM on August 24, 2023 [15 favorites]
Vivek delivering pure, uncut sociopathic millennial energy. Getting Model UN flashbacks.
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:31 AM on August 24, 2023 [15 favorites]
“The Ugly Future of the GOP: Vivek Ramaswamy and the Evolution of Cruelty and Greed,” Jared Yates Sexton, Dispatches from a Collapsing State, 24 August 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 9:39 AM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 9:39 AM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
“She doesn't pick up a state but having a PoC woman on the ticket really takes a lot of the sting out of the anti Trump attacks.“
Aren’t a lot of those attacks going to be about attempting to subvert democracy and laying the groundwork for Dobbs?
posted by Selena777 at 9:48 AM on August 24, 2023
Aren’t a lot of those attacks going to be about attempting to subvert democracy and laying the groundwork for Dobbs?
posted by Selena777 at 9:48 AM on August 24, 2023
She doesn't pick up a state but having a PoC woman on the ticket really takes a lot of the sting out of the anti Trump attacks.
I'm not sure I agree. On one hand, she was a co-conspirator on pro-authoritarian Trumpian schemes she helped push through the UN, which made the world less safe. And on the other side of the coin, she complained on Twitter about having to work on a federal holiday, while North Korea was threatening nuclear war on its neighbor to the south. So either way she's just not up to a job that more than occasionally requires wielding power on a global stage. Those are two easy criticisms a Biden campaign could make to point out she is not a serious, credible choice to be in line for presidency, even ignoring the rest of her mediocre record.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:04 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure I agree. On one hand, she was a co-conspirator on pro-authoritarian Trumpian schemes she helped push through the UN, which made the world less safe. And on the other side of the coin, she complained on Twitter about having to work on a federal holiday, while North Korea was threatening nuclear war on its neighbor to the south. So either way she's just not up to a job that more than occasionally requires wielding power on a global stage. Those are two easy criticisms a Biden campaign could make to point out she is not a serious, credible choice to be in line for presidency, even ignoring the rest of her mediocre record.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:04 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
...xitter
Apropos of nothing, am I supposed to pronounce this as "shitter"? Because that's what I hear in my head when I see this. Just want to know if this out-of-the-loop impression is the intended one or simply my brain doing its usual bathroom humour thing?
I know, if it were Greek it should be Chitter or even Kitter, but I just can't stop giggling when I see xitter.
posted by bonehead at 10:14 AM on August 24, 2023 [11 favorites]
Apropos of nothing, am I supposed to pronounce this as "shitter"? Because that's what I hear in my head when I see this. Just want to know if this out-of-the-loop impression is the intended one or simply my brain doing its usual bathroom humour thing?
I know, if it were Greek it should be Chitter or even Kitter, but I just can't stop giggling when I see xitter.
posted by bonehead at 10:14 AM on August 24, 2023 [11 favorites]
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Trump picked Ivanka as his VP,
She might not want it. She withdrew pretty definitively from active involvement in crazy political schemes shortly after the 2020 election, and for that reason isn't particularly on the radar of the massive indictment clusterfuck. Last I checked, she was trying and hilariously failing to re-establish herself in her centrist New York social scene.
posted by jackbishop at 10:33 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
She might not want it. She withdrew pretty definitively from active involvement in crazy political schemes shortly after the 2020 election, and for that reason isn't particularly on the radar of the massive indictment clusterfuck. Last I checked, she was trying and hilariously failing to re-establish herself in her centrist New York social scene.
posted by jackbishop at 10:33 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
She doesn't pick up a state but having a PoC woman on the ticket really takes a lot of the sting out of the anti-Trump attacks.
Not sure I see Haley as VP nominee if Trump is concerned about the VP being a dynamic person who could overshadow him, especially as some of what she has said could be viewed as not kowtowing to him (Trump expanded the deficit, she supports Ukraine, she resigned from his UN team after just 2 yrs for "family/privacy/step back from public life" reasons, etc).
OTOH I currently believe having her as VP nominee would help Trump as the ultra-Trumpers will vote for him regardless of who is VP. Then among other voters, she is a conservative woman of color who has significant experience as governor and in the UN (which could be viewed as roughly equivalent to Harris' experience).
I think this could be played out as Haley vs Harris for those who are concerned about the incapacitation of either Trump or Biden, as well as making these women the forerunners in the 2028 election.
posted by beaning at 10:39 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not sure I see Haley as VP nominee if Trump is concerned about the VP being a dynamic person who could overshadow him, especially as some of what she has said could be viewed as not kowtowing to him (Trump expanded the deficit, she supports Ukraine, she resigned from his UN team after just 2 yrs for "family/privacy/step back from public life" reasons, etc).
OTOH I currently believe having her as VP nominee would help Trump as the ultra-Trumpers will vote for him regardless of who is VP. Then among other voters, she is a conservative woman of color who has significant experience as governor and in the UN (which could be viewed as roughly equivalent to Harris' experience).
I think this could be played out as Haley vs Harris for those who are concerned about the incapacitation of either Trump or Biden, as well as making these women the forerunners in the 2028 election.
posted by beaning at 10:39 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Y'all, none of these people are angling for the VP slot. Because they know they won't get it. Trump already tried the "balance the ticket" idea - remember, Pence was supposed to be "experience + Evangelicals" - and that didn't work out too well, did it? And Trump knows damn well he's got a stranglehold on the Republican base, he's not gonna listen to anyone about supposed "sensible" reasons for his VP choice, he's too much of a vengeful narcissist to allow anyone who had the gall to challenge him to be his VP pick. He'll choose someone who can fundraise like crazy without overshadowing him. (So, yeah, I think Marjorie Taylor Greene has a real shot.)
posted by soundguy99 at 10:43 AM on August 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by soundguy99 at 10:43 AM on August 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Trump picked Ivanka as his VP
She might not want it. She withdrew pretty definitively from active involvement in crazy political schemes shortly after the 2020 election, and for that reason isn't particularly on the radar of the massive indictment clusterfuck.
Maybe this is why she withdrew? So she wouldn't be on the radar? Wouldn't that be sort of a brilliant move, if they want to keep that kind of political power in the family? And I could see that whole party salivating at the chance to look at her and fantasize for the next... several decades.
I know little about this, or her, really. It does sound a little scary and possible to me. (Please feel free to tell me why I can stop worrying about this now that I'm thinking about it.)
posted by heyho at 10:56 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
She might not want it. She withdrew pretty definitively from active involvement in crazy political schemes shortly after the 2020 election, and for that reason isn't particularly on the radar of the massive indictment clusterfuck.
Maybe this is why she withdrew? So she wouldn't be on the radar? Wouldn't that be sort of a brilliant move, if they want to keep that kind of political power in the family? And I could see that whole party salivating at the chance to look at her and fantasize for the next... several decades.
I know little about this, or her, really. It does sound a little scary and possible to me. (Please feel free to tell me why I can stop worrying about this now that I'm thinking about it.)
posted by heyho at 10:56 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh I'd forgotten about MTG! I think her as VP comes down to if the Republican party has any kind of hold on Trump at all. Because sure, she adds absolutely nothing while driving away so many.
I can see a last-minute traditional GOP party push for someone like Youngkin to still enter.
I can also see an intensified repeat of 2020 GOTV campaign: specifically that the election is too close to just NOT vote or vote 3rd party, you have to vote against Trump and for Biden regardless of how you vote down ballot.
posted by beaning at 11:00 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can see a last-minute traditional GOP party push for someone like Youngkin to still enter.
I can also see an intensified repeat of 2020 GOTV campaign: specifically that the election is too close to just NOT vote or vote 3rd party, you have to vote against Trump and for Biden regardless of how you vote down ballot.
posted by beaning at 11:00 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Haley's staking out her territory as "reasonable & experienced" for a post-Trump 2028 run. Christie, too, maybe, although there's a good chance he just wants to be a thug in public and bash Trump and his sycophants.
Mostly, they're all trying to get or keep name recognition to snag a piece of the conservative grift/media machine - a position at a "think tank", columnist for The Bulwark or National Review, commentator on CNN or Fox, start up a Leadership PAC, etc etc etc.
And on top of that, we've got *counts on fingers* 10 and a half months until the Republican National Convention (July 15 to 18 2024.) There is a non-zero chance Trump could be out by then - illness, death, off the ballot because Section 3 of 14th amendment, runs out of money, gets convicted, the RNC pulls some shenanigans and takes his delegates away, whatever. They're not all equally likely, but they're possible, and if Trump's out someone's gonna get the nomination. As long as donors are willing to pour money into your coffers and voters & delegates are willing to meet with you, you might as well stay in the running as long as you can.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:04 AM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Mostly, they're all trying to get or keep name recognition to snag a piece of the conservative grift/media machine - a position at a "think tank", columnist for The Bulwark or National Review, commentator on CNN or Fox, start up a Leadership PAC, etc etc etc.
And on top of that, we've got *counts on fingers* 10 and a half months until the Republican National Convention (July 15 to 18 2024.) There is a non-zero chance Trump could be out by then - illness, death, off the ballot because Section 3 of 14th amendment, runs out of money, gets convicted, the RNC pulls some shenanigans and takes his delegates away, whatever. They're not all equally likely, but they're possible, and if Trump's out someone's gonna get the nomination. As long as donors are willing to pour money into your coffers and voters & delegates are willing to meet with you, you might as well stay in the running as long as you can.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:04 AM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think it's possible Bridgegate was done by an overenthusiastic underling rather than especially Christie's fault. I stifl wouldn't support him because of abortion, but he doesn't seem to tend toward random assholery.
The "punishment" of Ft. Lee was the result of a campaign strategy he certainly approved (i.e. let's try to get every mayor in the state to endorse us for re-election.) It seems unlikely that he wouldn't have heard about it, when his Deputy Chief of Staff was directly involved.
AND his response took zero responsibility - there was no "buck stops here." I remember an interview in which he defiantly (and sarcastically) said "oh yeah, *I* put the cones there!" and another where he suggested we should feel bad for him. The definition of asshole is of course in the eye of the beholder but I would not trust him to work for my company after any of that.
posted by anhedonic at 11:09 AM on August 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
The "punishment" of Ft. Lee was the result of a campaign strategy he certainly approved (i.e. let's try to get every mayor in the state to endorse us for re-election.) It seems unlikely that he wouldn't have heard about it, when his Deputy Chief of Staff was directly involved.
AND his response took zero responsibility - there was no "buck stops here." I remember an interview in which he defiantly (and sarcastically) said "oh yeah, *I* put the cones there!" and another where he suggested we should feel bad for him. The definition of asshole is of course in the eye of the beholder but I would not trust him to work for my company after any of that.
posted by anhedonic at 11:09 AM on August 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yeah, here is the I worked the cones press conference, where he suggests that the people complaining about it are "obsessed" because they have "nothing to do."
posted by anhedonic at 11:19 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by anhedonic at 11:19 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
There were political-aspiration rumors of the mayor or governor variety about Ivanka in 2020/2021, when she bought a place on that billionaires' island off Florida, that fizzled. But I do find it interesting that in all the Hunter Biden nepotism chatter, any comparisons to Trump's kids benefitting from WH connections/access tend to focus on son-in-law Jared. Ivanka's the favored child, the one with the clearest/closest business ties (China and trademark approval, as an example). I thought it was just sexism, but it also shields her a bit for any campaigns down the line.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:29 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:29 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
The pledge to support the eventual nominee is normal, yes. Trump, of course, has refused to pledge to support any nominee but himself but that's Trump being Trump.
However a party platform is a statement of what the party stands for and is historically and traditionally a rather long document laying out various policy positions, ideological statements, etc.
Look at the Democratic Party Platform, for example, it's not just a pledge to support Biden in everything he does and essentially a declaration that Biden is the dictator of the Democrats.
However, I apparently missed the part where the Republicans adopted a new platform in 2022, becuase their current platform is a real platform not a repeat of the 2020 "platform" which really was just a brief statement that the Republicans were Trump's to command and that no prior Republican party platform was valid or indicative of any Republican goals or ideology.
So I suppose there is actually a point in the debates and primary since the platform is no longer just "we will do whatever Trump says" without any other detail.
posted by sotonohito at 11:52 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
However a party platform is a statement of what the party stands for and is historically and traditionally a rather long document laying out various policy positions, ideological statements, etc.
Look at the Democratic Party Platform, for example, it's not just a pledge to support Biden in everything he does and essentially a declaration that Biden is the dictator of the Democrats.
However, I apparently missed the part where the Republicans adopted a new platform in 2022, becuase their current platform is a real platform not a repeat of the 2020 "platform" which really was just a brief statement that the Republicans were Trump's to command and that no prior Republican party platform was valid or indicative of any Republican goals or ideology.
So I suppose there is actually a point in the debates and primary since the platform is no longer just "we will do whatever Trump says" without any other detail.
posted by sotonohito at 11:52 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
The governor faced immediate and intense backlash from the public for appearing to shut down state beaches to everyone but him and his family.
That was the news story that made me feel like I knew Christie.
posted by MonsieurPEB at 12:11 PM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
That was the news story that made me feel like I knew Christie.
posted by MonsieurPEB at 12:11 PM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Our writers pick the winners and losers, an exercise in punditry from the NYT. Here are my favorite lines about each candidate from a group of people that for the most part won't vote for any of 'em:
Katherine Mangu-Ward on Nikki Haley: The sickest burn on Trump wasn’t a Christie zinger. It was Haley’s brutal realism. “Trump is the most disliked politician in America” and “Donald Trump added $8 trillion to our debt.”
Ross Douthat on Mike Pence: Moral clarity, debating chops, a message frozen in amber in 1985 and a visceral hatred for Vivek Ramaswamy: It won’t get him the nomination but it made for some of the better theater of the night.
Michelle Goldberg on Chris Christie: He’s supposed to be a brawler, but he couldn’t even knock out Vivek Ramaswamy.
Goldberg on Ron DeSantis: Being a sinister authoritarian who promises extrajudicial assassinations at the border isn’t going to hurt DeSantis in a Republican primary, but his total lack of charisma probably will.
Gail Collins on Tim Scott: Best at energetic hand gestures.
Mangu-Ward on Vivek Ramaswamy: He ping-ponged manically between genuinely exciting envelope-pushing policy ideas and completely bananas, unconstitutional proposals.
Douthat on Doug Burgum: He proved this much: He has a lot more charisma than Asa Hutchinson.
Matthew Continetti on Asa Hutchinson: Hutchinson is a principled conservative who’s right that former president Trump’s conduct presents a potentially fatal challenge to the G.O.P. But he really shouldn’t have been on the stage.
WaPo has that other campaign reporting standby, polling. In which 29% of Republicans surveyed say DeSantis performed best, 26% say Ramaswamy, and 98% say Burgum and Hutchinson shouldn't have been on that stage.
posted by box at 12:24 PM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Katherine Mangu-Ward on Nikki Haley: The sickest burn on Trump wasn’t a Christie zinger. It was Haley’s brutal realism. “Trump is the most disliked politician in America” and “Donald Trump added $8 trillion to our debt.”
Ross Douthat on Mike Pence: Moral clarity, debating chops, a message frozen in amber in 1985 and a visceral hatred for Vivek Ramaswamy: It won’t get him the nomination but it made for some of the better theater of the night.
Michelle Goldberg on Chris Christie: He’s supposed to be a brawler, but he couldn’t even knock out Vivek Ramaswamy.
Goldberg on Ron DeSantis: Being a sinister authoritarian who promises extrajudicial assassinations at the border isn’t going to hurt DeSantis in a Republican primary, but his total lack of charisma probably will.
Gail Collins on Tim Scott: Best at energetic hand gestures.
Mangu-Ward on Vivek Ramaswamy: He ping-ponged manically between genuinely exciting envelope-pushing policy ideas and completely bananas, unconstitutional proposals.
Douthat on Doug Burgum: He proved this much: He has a lot more charisma than Asa Hutchinson.
Matthew Continetti on Asa Hutchinson: Hutchinson is a principled conservative who’s right that former president Trump’s conduct presents a potentially fatal challenge to the G.O.P. But he really shouldn’t have been on the stage.
WaPo has that other campaign reporting standby, polling. In which 29% of Republicans surveyed say DeSantis performed best, 26% say Ramaswamy, and 98% say Burgum and Hutchinson shouldn't have been on that stage.
posted by box at 12:24 PM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Apropos of nothing, am I supposed to pronounce this as "shitter"?
We should all continue to call it "Twitter" forever. Because that will annoy Musk.
posted by Paul Slade at 12:26 PM on August 24, 2023 [10 favorites]
We should all continue to call it "Twitter" forever. Because that will annoy Musk.
posted by Paul Slade at 12:26 PM on August 24, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'm betting Ivanka is done with electoral politics, at least as far as seeking office herself. Up till 2016 she had a carefully crafted image as a shrewd businesswoman combined with being a progressive compassionate philanthropist, moving in the same social circles as Chelsea Clinton, embodying class and refinement in the ways her crass father and oafish brothers could never do. Even during that campaign, TFG's bigoted rhetoric and antics would often be excused as posturing to the base, since Ivanka would be the strong quiet conscience of a Trump administration, surely she'd NEVER stand for the sexism, racism, homophobia and transphobia he was espousing. So now that the mask has been ripped off and she can't get any of Manhattan's social set to even eat lunch with her, I think she's smart enough to do her bit for the campaign then get herself far away from the GOP monkey cage (apologies to monkeys). So start looking for fawning NYT Style section puff pieces on 'Rediscovering... Ivanka!' by... 2026 or so?
posted by hangashore at 12:35 PM on August 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by hangashore at 12:35 PM on August 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
I watched the first half out of morbid curiosity. I agree with the point above that while it was messy, it was more substantive than I was expecting, at least from some of the candidates. Some stray thoughts-
-Nikki Haley on abortion was interesting, particularly when she said "And can’t we all agree that we are not going to put a woman in jail or give her the death penalty if she gets an abortion?" I get that it's a low bar for the GOP, but it was heartening to hear at least someone in the party to make the point that it's possible to be pro-life but also to not be draconian when it comes to enforcement.
-That a climate change question came up at all, nonetheless early on and from a Gen Z voter, suggests the GOP apparatus is convinced they need to at least have climate change policy, which many (all?) of the candidates clearly didn't, unless you count "go after China/India!" as policy.
-DeSantis' future is Florida, not Washington. Pence managed to seem more likable, which is saying something. Every answer by DeSantis was stale and scripted, and he often had this smile that was clearly trying really hard to make him look relaxed, but it just looked weird/slimy. I have a really hard time imagining how this debate would give him any more support, whereas I can imagine him losing support to some of the other candidates who came off as more cogent/serious.
-I imagine this debate might help Pence, Haley, and Ramaswamy, but either hurt of have no effect on the rest. Ramaswamy was rather manic and said some truly bizarre things, but I guess we're in an age where getting a lot of attention is usually beneficial.
posted by coffeecat at 1:26 PM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
-Nikki Haley on abortion was interesting, particularly when she said "And can’t we all agree that we are not going to put a woman in jail or give her the death penalty if she gets an abortion?" I get that it's a low bar for the GOP, but it was heartening to hear at least someone in the party to make the point that it's possible to be pro-life but also to not be draconian when it comes to enforcement.
-That a climate change question came up at all, nonetheless early on and from a Gen Z voter, suggests the GOP apparatus is convinced they need to at least have climate change policy, which many (all?) of the candidates clearly didn't, unless you count "go after China/India!" as policy.
-DeSantis' future is Florida, not Washington. Pence managed to seem more likable, which is saying something. Every answer by DeSantis was stale and scripted, and he often had this smile that was clearly trying really hard to make him look relaxed, but it just looked weird/slimy. I have a really hard time imagining how this debate would give him any more support, whereas I can imagine him losing support to some of the other candidates who came off as more cogent/serious.
-I imagine this debate might help Pence, Haley, and Ramaswamy, but either hurt of have no effect on the rest. Ramaswamy was rather manic and said some truly bizarre things, but I guess we're in an age where getting a lot of attention is usually beneficial.
posted by coffeecat at 1:26 PM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
GOP voters are more interested in the government hurting us vs. helping them.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 1:56 PM on August 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 1:56 PM on August 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
Welp, this timeline has been very interesting, but how do I switch to the timeline where Hillary Clinton won in 2016 and my daughter doesn't grow up in Gilead? kthxbye
posted by kirkaracha at 2:36 PM on August 24, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 2:36 PM on August 24, 2023 [17 favorites]
Nikki Haley on abortion was interesting, particularly when she said "And can’t we all agree that we are not going to put a woman in jail or give her the death penalty if she gets an abortion?"
May 25, 2016, South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley signs abortion law: Abortions may be performed after 20 weeks only if the mother’s life is "in jeopardy." The bill does not provide exceptions for rape or incest. Any physician who violates the law is guilty of a misdemeanor offense and faces a maximum sentence of three years imprisonment plus a potential fine. Haley just wants to eliminate safe abortions, but is realistic about what she could accomplish at the Federal level if given the chance (likening unwanted pregnancies to Confederate flags, in an April speech at a large anti-abortion organization). Meanwhile, in Nebraska.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:38 PM on August 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
May 25, 2016, South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley signs abortion law: Abortions may be performed after 20 weeks only if the mother’s life is "in jeopardy." The bill does not provide exceptions for rape or incest. Any physician who violates the law is guilty of a misdemeanor offense and faces a maximum sentence of three years imprisonment plus a potential fine. Haley just wants to eliminate safe abortions, but is realistic about what she could accomplish at the Federal level if given the chance (likening unwanted pregnancies to Confederate flags, in an April speech at a large anti-abortion organization). Meanwhile, in Nebraska.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:38 PM on August 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
Re: the Trump support softball question. For yesterday's event, candidates were required to sign a loyalty pledge to vote for the party’s eventual nominee as a condition of participation. Trump himself refused to sign the "Beat Biden" pledge last week.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:38 PM on August 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:38 PM on August 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yeah, I was joking with my partner that it probably won't be long (if it hasn't happened already) that republicans start to refer to abortion providers as abortion dealers, worthy of harsh sentences akin to drug dealers. Still quite bad, but ever so slightly less frightening than Pence or Scott (or everyone behind that case in Nebraska), who clearly want to eliminate abortion altogether.
posted by coffeecat at 4:33 PM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 4:33 PM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
likening unwanted pregnancies to Confederate flags
posted by kirkaracha at 4:57 PM on August 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
“Abortion is a deeply personal topic for both women and men. I understand why someone's body and someone else's life are not things to be taken lightly, and they should not be politicized,” she said.“And that's why it's none of my fucking business what a woman decides to do with her body,” she failed to continue.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:57 PM on August 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
Right now in Texas, the calendar decides whether you're granted a medical abortion, even if your in-progress miscarriage could kill you. Hospitals in that state started turning away patients with major pregnancy complications last year.
The loyalty oath came up while reading about former Texas Congressman Will Hurd, a Republican candidate who flatly refused when it was announced. (By the start of this week, he may have been polling too low to have made this primary's cut, anyhow.) Before Congress, Hurd worked for the CIA from 2000-2009. He's Black, majored in comp sci/minored in international relations at Texas A&M (he could have gone to Stanford), and as a CIA operative spent time in Afghanistan, India, and (undercover, as he speaks Urdu) Pakistan. Agent Hurd's routine briefings for members of Congress sparked his interest in political office.
Hurd's Congressional campaign earned former CIA director/Defense Secretary Robert Gates's first & only formal candidate endorsement. (Gates was sorry to see Hurd leave the agency.) Hurd was known as a hardworking (17 bills passed), sorta-moderate tech wonk when he repped Texas's 23rd congressional district (800+ miles along the US/Mexico border) from 2015 to 2021. In his first term, he was made chairman of the Information Technology Subcommittee of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform (unusual for a new rep). In Jan. 2017, Mike Pompeo (R-Kansas-4) was appointed CIA director and left the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence; Hurd was appointed as his replacement. In Jan. 2019, Hurd was one of the few House Republicans who voted with the Dems to end the gov't shutdown. He didn't sign on to contest the 2020 election results, is "pissed off" by how the arraignment's going -- actually, Hurd publicly called on Trump to drop out of the race in 2016, etc. At the time he announced he wouldn't seek re-election, Hurd was the only Black Republican member of the House.
Last month: On abortion policy, Hurd said he understands why there's a national debate, but he doesn't believe there's a federal role. "As an elected official, you talk about this issue, but we need to make sure this is a state issue, so the states can clarify," he said. While in the House of Representatives, Hurd broke with the Republican platform here and there (on LGBT rights, gun control, immigration, ACA repeal & congressional oversight), but voted the party line most of the time -- including on H.R.7 (No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion and Abortion Insurance Full Disclosure Act 2015).
Will Hurd just turned 46. NPR spoke with him last month, not for the first time. His name is going to come up again: he's a smart, likable, experienced, well-connected, tall Texan consistently billed as a moderate Republican. Not taking part in yesterday's absurdity can only reflect well on him. Claiming there's no role for Federal abortion regulations -- when the policy in his own home state of Texas garners these results -- does not.
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:22 PM on August 24, 2023 [14 favorites]
The loyalty oath came up while reading about former Texas Congressman Will Hurd, a Republican candidate who flatly refused when it was announced. (By the start of this week, he may have been polling too low to have made this primary's cut, anyhow.) Before Congress, Hurd worked for the CIA from 2000-2009. He's Black, majored in comp sci/minored in international relations at Texas A&M (he could have gone to Stanford), and as a CIA operative spent time in Afghanistan, India, and (undercover, as he speaks Urdu) Pakistan. Agent Hurd's routine briefings for members of Congress sparked his interest in political office.
Hurd's Congressional campaign earned former CIA director/Defense Secretary Robert Gates's first & only formal candidate endorsement. (Gates was sorry to see Hurd leave the agency.) Hurd was known as a hardworking (17 bills passed), sorta-moderate tech wonk when he repped Texas's 23rd congressional district (800+ miles along the US/Mexico border) from 2015 to 2021. In his first term, he was made chairman of the Information Technology Subcommittee of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform (unusual for a new rep). In Jan. 2017, Mike Pompeo (R-Kansas-4) was appointed CIA director and left the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence; Hurd was appointed as his replacement. In Jan. 2019, Hurd was one of the few House Republicans who voted with the Dems to end the gov't shutdown. He didn't sign on to contest the 2020 election results, is "pissed off" by how the arraignment's going -- actually, Hurd publicly called on Trump to drop out of the race in 2016, etc. At the time he announced he wouldn't seek re-election, Hurd was the only Black Republican member of the House.
Last month: On abortion policy, Hurd said he understands why there's a national debate, but he doesn't believe there's a federal role. "As an elected official, you talk about this issue, but we need to make sure this is a state issue, so the states can clarify," he said. While in the House of Representatives, Hurd broke with the Republican platform here and there (on LGBT rights, gun control, immigration, ACA repeal & congressional oversight), but voted the party line most of the time -- including on H.R.7 (No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion and Abortion Insurance Full Disclosure Act 2015).
Will Hurd just turned 46. NPR spoke with him last month, not for the first time. His name is going to come up again: he's a smart, likable, experienced, well-connected, tall Texan consistently billed as a moderate Republican. Not taking part in yesterday's absurdity can only reflect well on him. Claiming there's no role for Federal abortion regulations -- when the policy in his own home state of Texas garners these results -- does not.
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:22 PM on August 24, 2023 [14 favorites]
An actual "moderate republican" and a POC to boot, yeah, that worries me.
A few state policies I don't entirely agree with, well those are decisions up to the States. Yikes!
posted by Windopaene at 9:49 PM on August 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
A few state policies I don't entirely agree with, well those are decisions up to the States. Yikes!
posted by Windopaene at 9:49 PM on August 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Furthermore, trump dēlenda est
posted by oldnumberseven at 2:23 AM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by oldnumberseven at 2:23 AM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
but he doesn't believe there's a federal role. "As an elected official, you talk about this issue, but we need to make sure this is a state issue, so the states can clarify," he said.
Isn't this just standard Republican states rights crap?
Hurd broke with the Republican platform here and there (on LGBT rights, gun control, immigration, ACA repeal & congressional oversight), but voted the party line most of the time
So I guess he's a "moderate" Republican the same way Susan Collins is a moderate Republican--he's taken a few public stands to earn his maverick credentials when his vote didn't actually matter, but the rest of the time he's 100% just as awful as the rest of them. The only thing moderate about him seems to be his ability to keep saying the quiet parts quiet, unlike most others in the GOP.
I hope his name is quietly forgotten.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:05 AM on August 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
Isn't this just standard Republican states rights crap?
Hurd broke with the Republican platform here and there (on LGBT rights, gun control, immigration, ACA repeal & congressional oversight), but voted the party line most of the time
So I guess he's a "moderate" Republican the same way Susan Collins is a moderate Republican--he's taken a few public stands to earn his maverick credentials when his vote didn't actually matter, but the rest of the time he's 100% just as awful as the rest of them. The only thing moderate about him seems to be his ability to keep saying the quiet parts quiet, unlike most others in the GOP.
I hope his name is quietly forgotten.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:05 AM on August 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
I remember a friend whose spouse constantly cheated on her and she constantly went back to him. Every now and then, while broken up, she would take over a party to make the entire group evaluate potential online dating matches everyone knew she was never going to go out with, ever. We had to pretend this was all Very Serious Decision-Making Time, even though we knew she would be back with that skirt-chasing shitheel inside of two weeks no matter what else happened.
Sorry, got distracted there. Please tell me more about your debate, GOP. Explain to me all of the various pros and cons of all of these non-Trump people you are very seriously considering.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:47 AM on August 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
Sorry, got distracted there. Please tell me more about your debate, GOP. Explain to me all of the various pros and cons of all of these non-Trump people you are very seriously considering.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:47 AM on August 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
“I hope his name is quietly forgotten.” I think you’ll be the one to get your wish in this environment unless he completely changes his tune.
posted by Selena777 at 11:58 AM on August 25, 2023
posted by Selena777 at 11:58 AM on August 25, 2023
it's possible to be pro-life but also to not be draconian when it comes to enforcement
not yet anyway
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:03 PM on August 25, 2023
not yet anyway
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:03 PM on August 25, 2023
It’s a sad state of affairs when the slate is so terrible that Chris motherfucking Christie sounds like the voice of reason.
This reminded me of Marion Barry. After he was set up by that [redacted] and retreated from public life, but then came back, I heard him in a debate when he was running for council or mayor, and I was not a Barry supporter, but to me, in the debate, he sounded like the best man for the job.
Then I started thinking about Trump. Barry said "Get over it." And the people of the city said he may not be perfect, but he's Our choice. I can just hear Trump doing that.
posted by MtDewd at 8:26 PM on August 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
This reminded me of Marion Barry. After he was set up by that [redacted] and retreated from public life, but then came back, I heard him in a debate when he was running for council or mayor, and I was not a Barry supporter, but to me, in the debate, he sounded like the best man for the job.
Then I started thinking about Trump. Barry said "Get over it." And the people of the city said he may not be perfect, but he's Our choice. I can just hear Trump doing that.
posted by MtDewd at 8:26 PM on August 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
does any of this theatre mean anything when they will all vote for trump regardless
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:04 PM on August 25, 2023
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:04 PM on August 25, 2023
No
posted by Selena777 at 1:40 PM on August 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 1:40 PM on August 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
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posted by any major dude at 5:58 PM on August 23, 2023 [50 favorites]