As a heartless killing machine, I was a terrible failure.
December 14, 2023 5:16 PM Subscribe
Apple announces Murderbot series starring Alexander Skarsgård. The series is based on Martha Wells' series of novellas and novels about Murderbot, a cyborg piece of security equipment who, after maybe probably definitely maybe murdering a bunch of its clients for reasons it can't remember, hacks its own governor module to free itself so that it can endlessly watch The Rise and Fall of Sanctuary Moon and other media whenever its clients aren't killing each other or getting eaten by fauna.
Murderbot is affirmatively genderless, as in has no gender and doesn't want one, and is written in a way that some readers have a more feminine mental picture of Murderbot and others more masculine. (EDIT: like that, see?!) So there was no casting that would have ever satisfied everyone. Me, I think at least Skarsgård is pretty good at the "being wearily put upon yet again" part of Murderbot.
I'm also cautiously hopeful about it, but the novella/novel series is SO internal that there are just so many ways to fuck it up.
I really really really want to see the clips from Sanctuary Moon and Worldhoppers.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:20 PM on December 14, 2023 [50 favorites]
I'm also cautiously hopeful about it, but the novella/novel series is SO internal that there are just so many ways to fuck it up.
I really really really want to see the clips from Sanctuary Moon and Worldhoppers.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:20 PM on December 14, 2023 [50 favorites]
I'm fairly certain Martha Wells told fans once that Sanctuary Moon is a piss-take on How To Get Away With Murder, so let's find out what Viola Davis is doing.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 5:22 PM on December 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 5:22 PM on December 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
Ha, just posted about Murderbot on the 404 post describing the Corporate Rim shenanigans CMG would love to pull.
I love me some Murderbot.
... the company would access ... and data mine them for anything they could sell. No, they don’t tell people that. Yes, everyone does know it.”
posted by BlueHorse at 5:23 PM on December 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
I love me some Murderbot.
... the company would access ... and data mine them for anything they could sell. No, they don’t tell people that. Yes, everyone does know it.”
posted by BlueHorse at 5:23 PM on December 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
I... wish they'd chosen someone who wasn't Generic Cis White Dude. But I'm willing to give it a chance. I hope Martha Wells got PHAT paid -- that means something good came of this even if it turns out to suck.
What they better NOT do is forget that Murderbot is ace and most likely aro as well. The first hint of... well, anything schmoopy... and I am OUT.
My students had Murderbot Diaries as an option in their evaluate-a-book-for-infosec-knowledge assignment this fall. About half the class went for it. There was, yes, a good deal of Murderbot-misgendering -- some "he," some "she," one "they." Curiously, the students for whom English isn't their first/only language seemed to get along best with Murderbot's own "it." That apparently felt pretty squicky for English first-language speakers.
posted by humbug at 5:24 PM on December 14, 2023 [24 favorites]
What they better NOT do is forget that Murderbot is ace and most likely aro as well. The first hint of... well, anything schmoopy... and I am OUT.
My students had Murderbot Diaries as an option in their evaluate-a-book-for-infosec-knowledge assignment this fall. About half the class went for it. There was, yes, a good deal of Murderbot-misgendering -- some "he," some "she," one "they." Curiously, the students for whom English isn't their first/only language seemed to get along best with Murderbot's own "it." That apparently felt pretty squicky for English first-language speakers.
posted by humbug at 5:24 PM on December 14, 2023 [24 favorites]
In Murderbot's words, "I don’t have any gender or sex-related parts (if a construct has those you’re a sexbot in a brothel, not a murderbot)" AND YET this is such weird casting.
posted by mittens at 5:24 PM on December 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by mittens at 5:24 PM on December 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Fantasy-casting Vico Ortiz as Murderbot. Yeah, I think that could work.
posted by humbug at 5:29 PM on December 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by humbug at 5:29 PM on December 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
I'm guardedly excited about this but also was not picturing Murderbot as quite so straightforwardly masc. But like, why not, I guess. Most people in a sexist society designing a SecUnit would probably try to make it physically intimidating and therefore big and burly. It isn't the casting choice I would have made but it's probably because I happen to relate very easily to Murderbot and I happen to be installed in a female-shaped chassis.
Agree that gender signifiers don't mean that much to me but if there's even a WHIFF of physical or emotional attachment I am OUT.
posted by potrzebie at 5:30 PM on December 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
Agree that gender signifiers don't mean that much to me but if there's even a WHIFF of physical or emotional attachment I am OUT.
posted by potrzebie at 5:30 PM on December 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
I would really rather they hadn't cast a white, cis man as Murderbot. Nonwhite, nonbinary actors exist and would love the work!
posted by maryellenreads at 5:31 PM on December 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by maryellenreads at 5:31 PM on December 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
I am skeptical that this is going to capture the things that are so compelling about Murderbot.
I hope they come up with something really clever for how to show Sanctuary Moon.
It's interesting to consider how I perceive Murderbot's gender - I always felt it was a little bit feminine-coded but it's hard to articulate exactly why. Maybe the agender character's voice absorbs a little bit from the author being a woman?
posted by allegedly at 5:32 PM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
I hope they come up with something really clever for how to show Sanctuary Moon.
It's interesting to consider how I perceive Murderbot's gender - I always felt it was a little bit feminine-coded but it's hard to articulate exactly why. Maybe the agender character's voice absorbs a little bit from the author being a woman?
posted by allegedly at 5:32 PM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Huh. I always pictured 90s Jerry Stiller.
posted by orange ball at 5:35 PM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by orange ball at 5:35 PM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
I want Murderbot to read as poor and middle-aged, which they don’t even do in the audiobook. I think a lot of the genius of the setup is how it slides class position in where we’re narratively trained to expect gender position.
posted by clew at 5:35 PM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by clew at 5:35 PM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Apple is really bad about putting unnecessary dudes in their productions.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:35 PM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:35 PM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Really not into Skarsgard as Murderbot. Will I watch... sure? But wish they'd been more creative about the main part than normie Northman.
posted by kokaku at 5:36 PM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 5:36 PM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
> I really really really want to see the clips from Sanctuary Moon and Worldhoppers.This is honestly the best reason I’ve heard for this adaptation to exist. Bonus points if Sanctuary Moon is so well-done that it becomes a spin-off series.
posted by mbrubeck at 5:46 PM on December 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
I really like Skarsgård as an actor but am a bit perplexed. Honestly, part of what I like about him is his slightly menacing sexy masculinity. The menacing works for Murderbot, but not the sexy or masculine. OTOH he's also good at playing characters with unusual affects so... maybe?
In my head when I read Murderbot I see them as being like River Tam in Firefly.
posted by Nelson at 5:49 PM on December 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
In my head when I read Murderbot I see them as being like River Tam in Firefly.
posted by Nelson at 5:49 PM on December 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
Who's to say Murderbot isn't 90% CGI and Skarsgård isn't only the voice. I mean Rocket is played by Sean Gunn and voiced by Bradley Cooper. No way you can tell that in the final film.
posted by fiercekitten at 5:58 PM on December 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by fiercekitten at 5:58 PM on December 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Most people in a sexist society designing a SecUnit would probably try to make it physically intimidating and therefore big and burly.
Yeah, even though Murderbot has no genitals, I pretty much figure it's large and burly and man-shaped in size, regardless of gender identity. And frankly, it's gotta be hard casting any human as Murderbot.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:58 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, even though Murderbot has no genitals, I pretty much figure it's large and burly and man-shaped in size, regardless of gender identity. And frankly, it's gotta be hard casting any human as Murderbot.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:58 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm like whaaaaaaaT?! Anything Muderbot makes me giddy but Alexander Skarsgård?
I just re-read the whole series and Murderbot is large/imposing but also genderless and so. Hm.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 6:00 PM on December 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
I just re-read the whole series and Murderbot is large/imposing but also genderless and so. Hm.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 6:00 PM on December 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh no. Hollywood claims another great property to turn into homogenized slush. I hope Martha Wells at least gets shittons of money for it; she definitely deserves it.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:02 PM on December 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:02 PM on December 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Bonus points if Sanctuary Moon is so well-done that it becomes a spin-off series.
Well done in its own way, but still absolute trash. I want it to have soap opera nonsense that Calculon would be proud to be part of. But compelling trash.
(I have never watched How To Get Away With Murder and am sure that Ms. Davis would not appear in trash. Nonetheless. The heart wants what the heart wants.)
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:06 PM on December 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Well done in its own way, but still absolute trash. I want it to have soap opera nonsense that Calculon would be proud to be part of. But compelling trash.
(I have never watched How To Get Away With Murder and am sure that Ms. Davis would not appear in trash. Nonetheless. The heart wants what the heart wants.)
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:06 PM on December 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Like everyone else here, I was really taken aback by this casting, which seems...really oppositional to what I imagine Murderbot being. But I'm willing to give it a shot. One of them did co-write Rogue One, which is promising.
posted by rednikki at 6:07 PM on December 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by rednikki at 6:07 PM on December 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's interesting to consider how I perceive Murderbot's gender - I always felt it was a little bit feminine-coded but it's hard to articulate exactly why. Maybe the agender character's voice absorbs a little bit from the author being a woman?"
Pretty sure that when Murderbot poses as an augmented human security consultant, that consultant gets assumed as female by other humans it interacts with. Would have to get the books back out from the library to doublecheck, but I believe that's the case both when helping the indentured folks escape and when investigating the decommissioned terraforming platform, where it interacts with a companion bot that definitely gets female pronouns.
posted by klangklangston at 6:16 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Pretty sure that when Murderbot poses as an augmented human security consultant, that consultant gets assumed as female by other humans it interacts with. Would have to get the books back out from the library to doublecheck, but I believe that's the case both when helping the indentured folks escape and when investigating the decommissioned terraforming platform, where it interacts with a companion bot that definitely gets female pronouns.
posted by klangklangston at 6:16 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Huh. I always pictured 90s Jerry Stiller.
YA GOT CIRCLES??!! is the title of the next novella in the series
posted by stevil at 6:16 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
YA GOT CIRCLES??!! is the title of the next novella in the series
posted by stevil at 6:16 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
They're not guaranteed to ruin it, but I always do worry about adaptations of material that is heavily dependent on a character's interior monologue.
It's not impossible, and I can think of several shows or films off the top of my head that did it very well, using a variety of techniques. (Tight focus on facial expression. Reimagining the source material. Even straight-up voice-over narration can work if done well, clumsy as it seems; I can think of films that managed it.) But it's an easy thing to fumble.
Until recently, I also would have thought, "Good luck showing the emotional journey of a nearly affectless character who almost always wears a helmet," but then The Mandalorian had two good seasons, so. And for all I know they'll change that aspect anyway.
Welp, I guess we'll find out how well they did when it comes out.
posted by kyrademon at 6:24 PM on December 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
It's not impossible, and I can think of several shows or films off the top of my head that did it very well, using a variety of techniques. (Tight focus on facial expression. Reimagining the source material. Even straight-up voice-over narration can work if done well, clumsy as it seems; I can think of films that managed it.) But it's an easy thing to fumble.
Until recently, I also would have thought, "Good luck showing the emotional journey of a nearly affectless character who almost always wears a helmet," but then The Mandalorian had two good seasons, so. And for all I know they'll change that aspect anyway.
Welp, I guess we'll find out how well they did when it comes out.
posted by kyrademon at 6:24 PM on December 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Don’t love the casting, but do love Murderbot.
Reading System Collapse one chapter every few days, to make it last. Because we can’t find the middle four books to reread!
posted by Windopaene at 6:24 PM on December 14, 2023
Reading System Collapse one chapter every few days, to make it last. Because we can’t find the middle four books to reread!
posted by Windopaene at 6:24 PM on December 14, 2023
Would love to hear who you would cast, just to get a sense of what people are imagining.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:29 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:29 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I like the idea of stopping at the first few words of the post text with just "Apple announces Murderbot"
imagining Tim Cook talking about how Apple believes in privacy as a fundamental human right, which is why it's more important than ever to avoid leaving any loose ends
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:29 PM on December 14, 2023 [23 favorites]
imagining Tim Cook talking about how Apple believes in privacy as a fundamental human right, which is why it's more important than ever to avoid leaving any loose ends
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:29 PM on December 14, 2023 [23 favorites]
Most people in a sexist society designing a SecUnit would probably try to make it physically intimidating and therefore big and burly.
I think you're thinking of a ScaryBot.
posted by amtho at 6:32 PM on December 14, 2023
I think you're thinking of a ScaryBot.
posted by amtho at 6:32 PM on December 14, 2023
Some ideas about how to show Sanctuary Moon:
- It is never actually shown. We see Murderbot's reactions, and characters talk about events happening in the show, but all we ever see or hear is some theme music.
- It's an anime.
- It looks like a 1960s sitcom.
- Characters in the show are played by recognizable real-world soap opera actors.
Endless possibilities.
posted by allegedly at 6:33 PM on December 14, 2023 [14 favorites]
- It is never actually shown. We see Murderbot's reactions, and characters talk about events happening in the show, but all we ever see or hear is some theme music.
- It's an anime.
- It looks like a 1960s sitcom.
- Characters in the show are played by recognizable real-world soap opera actors.
Endless possibilities.
posted by allegedly at 6:33 PM on December 14, 2023 [14 favorites]
Skarsgård might need to upgrade its "walk like a human" code
posted by skippyhacker at 6:33 PM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by skippyhacker at 6:33 PM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Murderbot is a cripplingly autistic aromantic asexual and Alex skars is a sex idol. Wrong.
posted by thedaniel at 6:35 PM on December 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by thedaniel at 6:35 PM on December 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
About A Bot
(the producers did About A Boy)
posted by BungaDunga at 6:39 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
(the producers did About A Boy)
posted by BungaDunga at 6:39 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Is there a white human in the entire series? All the humans have skin that is lighter or darker brown, as I recall. I'd believe that white people exist in the Corporate Rim, but I don't think they'd make SecUnits white when it's clear the majority of humans in the CR aren't. Then again, most people never see a SecUnit's skin, let alone face. We do see a few humans remark along the lines of"I didn't realize they had faces!"
Anyway, joining the chorus that it really shouldn't be a cis/het white dude, zeroing in on the white since the other bits are covered. I won't watch it, bc I like the books a lot, and there's really no way a show could make the series any better, just lots of ways to make it worse. I am a big fan of fictional shows in general, and Sanctuary Moon in particular. I think I'll just buy the shirt.
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:45 PM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Anyway, joining the chorus that it really shouldn't be a cis/het white dude, zeroing in on the white since the other bits are covered. I won't watch it, bc I like the books a lot, and there's really no way a show could make the series any better, just lots of ways to make it worse. I am a big fan of fictional shows in general, and Sanctuary Moon in particular. I think I'll just buy the shirt.
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:45 PM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Kevin R Free does such a great job portraying Murderbot in the audio books, I would be thrilled if he got some cameo or supporting role in this. maybe he could voice ART. He's also probably the reason I picture murderbot being masc presenting.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 6:49 PM on December 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 6:49 PM on December 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
Man, if I had to pick a Skarsgård for this role, he wouldn't make top three
vs.
AS is a good actor, and also an executive producer for the series, so it'll probably shake out okay
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:53 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
vs.
AS is a good actor, and also an executive producer for the series, so it'll probably shake out okay
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:53 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
What, they couldn't get Tilda Swinton? what a crushing disappoint. Oh well, I know I'll watch it anyway.
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 6:53 PM on December 14, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 6:53 PM on December 14, 2023 [14 favorites]
I headcanon Sanctuary Moon as a kdrama
posted by potrzebie at 6:58 PM on December 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 6:58 PM on December 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
I wish it was Natalie Portman cast as Murderbot.
.....But I'll still watch it.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:06 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
.....But I'll still watch it.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:06 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't think a Schwarzeneggeresque SecUnit design fits with the way SecUnits are typically deployed, nor with how they are treated. There'd be no need to order a SchwarzUnit never to sit down (to keep social hierarchies intact); it would be obvious that the SchwarzUnit is not human.
Murderbot itself operates by hackery and social engineering (including hiding in plain sight among a group of humans) as much as physical fighting. It's harder for a SchwarzUnit to pull off the social-engineering and Purloined Letter bits of this.
That said, I wouldn't be horrified to discover that CombatBots and even a few SecUnits are designed to be Schwarzy. Intimidation is worth something in the security business.
posted by humbug at 7:10 PM on December 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
Murderbot itself operates by hackery and social engineering (including hiding in plain sight among a group of humans) as much as physical fighting. It's harder for a SchwarzUnit to pull off the social-engineering and Purloined Letter bits of this.
That said, I wouldn't be horrified to discover that CombatBots and even a few SecUnits are designed to be Schwarzy. Intimidation is worth something in the security business.
posted by humbug at 7:10 PM on December 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
Nth-ing the Vico Ortiz dream casting. They have that awkward/beautiful physicality I imagined for Murderbot, a slight otherworldliness that would just work. Skarsgård would make a great ART, tho...
I can see Tilda Swinton as Dr Mensah, maybe?
In any case, a Murderbot series should be queer as fuck. Like, a great gritty rainbow of punk queer goodness, utterly spangle-free and full of all those bits where moondust gets in your eyes...
posted by prismatic7 at 7:11 PM on December 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
I can see Tilda Swinton as Dr Mensah, maybe?
In any case, a Murderbot series should be queer as fuck. Like, a great gritty rainbow of punk queer goodness, utterly spangle-free and full of all those bits where moondust gets in your eyes...
posted by prismatic7 at 7:11 PM on December 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
Gwendoline Christie might have been another interesting choice, though she deserves to not have to deal with wearing armored suits yet again after playing Brienne and Captain Phasma. I am interested to see Skarsgård's take on it though, if they do stay true to Muderbot.
posted by Pryde at 7:15 PM on December 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Pryde at 7:15 PM on December 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
I always pictured Murderbot as Gwendoline Christie with a shaved head and masculine chest, so I can’t say this particularly works for me but we’ll see what the trailer’s like.
On preview: lol, yep
posted by Ryvar at 7:17 PM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
On preview: lol, yep
posted by Ryvar at 7:17 PM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Tilda Swinton as Dr Mensah, maybe?
Nah. Tilda Swinton was literally born to play Senior Indah from Fugitive Telemetry. Pretty much the only person I’d put in that role.
posted by Ryvar at 7:26 PM on December 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Nah. Tilda Swinton was literally born to play Senior Indah from Fugitive Telemetry. Pretty much the only person I’d put in that role.
posted by Ryvar at 7:26 PM on December 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
For me, Murderbot was always 1980s Grace Jones.
posted by MrVisible at 7:27 PM on December 14, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by MrVisible at 7:27 PM on December 14, 2023 [24 favorites]
Nah. Tilda Swinton was literally born to play Senior Indah from Fugitive Telemetry. Pretty much the only person I’d put in that roleDaaaaaaang. You are so right!
posted by prismatic7 at 7:53 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well this announcement reminded me I want to read this series, and it reminded the other 35 people on the waiting list ahead of me at the library.
posted by muddgirl at 8:02 PM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 8:02 PM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
With the disclaimer that murderbot is very vocal as identifying as agender and the text is intentionally very neutral when describing it:
Early in the series, before I thought about it, I used to read it as masc, but its aliases Eden and Rin are femme-coded. I don’t know; there’s definitely points where there I could make a strong case for male or female reads in the narrative; but nothing conclusive. I appreciate that ambiguity as an intentional choice by the author.
I think ‘it’ is particularly difficult as a pronoun for well meaning people due to associations with an inanimate objects and the disdain associated with it, even when it is its preferred pronoun.
I thought it was interesting that MurderBot kept distinguishing between humans and augmented humans.
posted by theclaw at 8:08 PM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Early in the series, before I thought about it, I used to read it as masc, but its aliases Eden and Rin are femme-coded. I don’t know; there’s definitely points where there I could make a strong case for male or female reads in the narrative; but nothing conclusive. I appreciate that ambiguity as an intentional choice by the author.
I think ‘it’ is particularly difficult as a pronoun for well meaning people due to associations with an inanimate objects and the disdain associated with it, even when it is its preferred pronoun.
I thought it was interesting that MurderBot kept distinguishing between humans and augmented humans.
posted by theclaw at 8:08 PM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Nonwhite, nonbinary actors exist...
Ugh, I hate that Apple reached for a cis sexy white dude.
We need brown not white, genderless, not male, average, not handsome/beautiful, just a generic human that doesn't (want to) stand out in a crowd.
I can't imagine any one actor that would do Murderbot justice. Their/its physical appearance and behavior is so different from their/its sense of self.
I doubt if I'll watch any production, simply because I see Murderbot so strongly in my mind's eye that any depiction would seem an imposter.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:16 PM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Ugh, I hate that Apple reached for a cis sexy white dude.
We need brown not white, genderless, not male, average, not handsome/beautiful, just a generic human that doesn't (want to) stand out in a crowd.
I can't imagine any one actor that would do Murderbot justice. Their/its physical appearance and behavior is so different from their/its sense of self.
I doubt if I'll watch any production, simply because I see Murderbot so strongly in my mind's eye that any depiction would seem an imposter.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:16 PM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Aubrey Plaza.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:19 PM on December 14, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:19 PM on December 14, 2023 [20 favorites]
I would have been happy with Tig Notaro.
I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with it.
posted by Avelwood at 8:27 PM on December 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with it.
posted by Avelwood at 8:27 PM on December 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
Well, hell. Looks like I’m gonna have to finally subscribe to Apple TV.
.........
What they better NOT do is forget that Murderbot is ace and most likely aro as well. The first hint of... well, anything schmoopy... and I am OUT.
Could someone kindly translate this for me. I’m old.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:32 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
.........
What they better NOT do is forget that Murderbot is ace and most likely aro as well. The first hint of... well, anything schmoopy... and I am OUT.
Could someone kindly translate this for me. I’m old.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:32 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
ace/aro = asexual/aromantic
schmoopy = romantic, sappy, sentimental
posted by mbrubeck at 8:58 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
schmoopy = romantic, sappy, sentimental
posted by mbrubeck at 8:58 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Was really confused at all the complaining about Alexander Skarsgård until I realized I had confused him with Bill Skarsgård.
posted by gwint at 8:59 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by gwint at 8:59 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Murderbot is asexual and aromantic, Thorzdad. There are some shadings of… something at a couple points with Doctor Mensah, but it’s not really romantic love. Just a hook to make the compulsive shippers squee before uploading another 30MBs of text to AO3. Murderbot is coded heavily autistic, and a cyborg, and theirits personality is roughly where the Terminator’s is in Terminator 2 right after they confront Miles Dyson. “Now listen to me very closely,” never “I know now why you cry.” The Terminator pointing out that just straight up killing Miles Dyson might actually change the future? That is an extremely Murderbot thing to suggest.
I’m not really doing it justice but if you are a nerd on the spectrum, and beyond sick of the other primates never making sense, it is almost impossible not to deeply love Murderbot.
posted by Ryvar at 8:59 PM on December 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
I’m not really doing it justice but if you are a nerd on the spectrum, and beyond sick of the other primates never making sense, it is almost impossible not to deeply love Murderbot.
posted by Ryvar at 8:59 PM on December 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Maybe this could have various actors in various shows/seasons. Like Altered Carbon did or the best friend in Oh Jerome, No! who had a different guy play him each time in the same shirt IIRC.
posted by drowsy at 9:16 PM on December 14, 2023
posted by drowsy at 9:16 PM on December 14, 2023
I'm with Blue Horse: I picture Murderbot as the most generic brownish bland clone-looking burly person who doesn't, at all, stand out in a crowd. No clue who would fit that. Someone who looks generic but can act?
Really Murderbot should be shot Hardcore Henry style and we see everything through its helmet but can't see it.
But you probably want a name actor with charisma for TV.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:31 PM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Really Murderbot should be shot Hardcore Henry style and we see everything through its helmet but can't see it.
But you probably want a name actor with charisma for TV.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:31 PM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Hmmm. Unstoppable remorseless cyborg killing machine. That's a terminator. I had that poster in my dorm at highschool. You know the one with Arnie's face blown off revealing the robot within? The most famous cyborg, played by the most famous actor, in his most iconic role.
Of course I thought Murderbot looks like Arnie! More than just the appearance though, remember how John tried to teach the T-100 how to behave more human? Perfect casting there - for a robot pretending to be human very badly, Arnold nailed it. Murderbot makes the same attempts, and I see in my mind's eye Arnold being unnatural.
In the novels there is a central conceit which is mostly elided - SecUnits have to look human. I think the justification was that since they have human brains, they have to map all the nerves to human limbs. It's just a terrible design for a killer robot. It's super important for the narrative that Murderbot passes as a (highly augmented) human.
I'm thinking the ultimate killer robot is a nanobot mist that fills whatever space it's in. Drop a can of it on a planet and it rules the entire atmosphere in a few hours. It's not a very fun story, so we're going with the humanoid thing. Again. Whatevs -we're just having fun here! Do you hate fun?
Apple did an adaptation of Silo. Which I was excited for! It sucks. I mean, I have problems with the Silo books too. I put the books aside for a long time when it was revealed that the plan to destory all mankind was a Democratic party plot. Wtf? I still thought it'd make a good TV show. But they fucked it up. One star.
I haven't finished the Murderbot diaries yet. They're really great! Easy reads, lots of fun, fast paced, not too heavy, just light enough. The portion sizes are just right. More than a snack, but it won't leave you bloated. ★ ★ ★ ★☆.
By the way, did Skarsgard fuck a goat and I didn't hear about it? I don't understand the hate. If you're just pissed off that a white guy got a job, I don't think that's very healthy for you.
posted by adept256 at 10:14 PM on December 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Of course I thought Murderbot looks like Arnie! More than just the appearance though, remember how John tried to teach the T-100 how to behave more human? Perfect casting there - for a robot pretending to be human very badly, Arnold nailed it. Murderbot makes the same attempts, and I see in my mind's eye Arnold being unnatural.
In the novels there is a central conceit which is mostly elided - SecUnits have to look human. I think the justification was that since they have human brains, they have to map all the nerves to human limbs. It's just a terrible design for a killer robot. It's super important for the narrative that Murderbot passes as a (highly augmented) human.
I'm thinking the ultimate killer robot is a nanobot mist that fills whatever space it's in. Drop a can of it on a planet and it rules the entire atmosphere in a few hours. It's not a very fun story, so we're going with the humanoid thing. Again. Whatevs -we're just having fun here! Do you hate fun?
Apple did an adaptation of Silo. Which I was excited for! It sucks. I mean, I have problems with the Silo books too. I put the books aside for a long time when it was revealed that the plan to destory all mankind was a Democratic party plot. Wtf? I still thought it'd make a good TV show. But they fucked it up. One star.
I haven't finished the Murderbot diaries yet. They're really great! Easy reads, lots of fun, fast paced, not too heavy, just light enough. The portion sizes are just right. More than a snack, but it won't leave you bloated. ★ ★ ★ ★☆.
By the way, did Skarsgard fuck a goat and I didn't hear about it? I don't understand the hate. If you're just pissed off that a white guy got a job, I don't think that's very healthy for you.
posted by adept256 at 10:14 PM on December 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
What they better NOT do is forget that Murderbot is ace and most likely aro as well. The first hint of... well, anything schmoopy... and I am OUT.
lmao, it's Hollywood, there'll be a romantic subplot by episode 3.
It really depresses me all the people who are like "it might be bad, but i'll probably try it anyway". Watching it only encourages them!!!!!
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:15 PM on December 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
lmao, it's Hollywood, there'll be a romantic subplot by episode 3.
It really depresses me all the people who are like "it might be bad, but i'll probably try it anyway". Watching it only encourages them!!!!!
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:15 PM on December 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm happy with this news! I'm a fan! I've got all the ebooks, I've listened to the Kevin R. Free books and fallen asleep to them, and I've gone to a Martha Wells reading recently.
> Skarsgård might need to upgrade its "walk like a human" code
How does he decide what to do with his hands?!
> I think I'll just buy the shirt.
That isn't a licensed shirt. Apple probably has the merch license, including Sanctuary Moon. And now I'm bummed, because it seems unlikely there will be official, legit merch.
> I thought it was interesting that MurderBot kept distinguishing between humans and augmented humans.
Wells has said that Murderbot does that because augmented humans are more of a threat, esp. because they'll more easily detect its hacked governor module.
posted by Pronoiac at 10:42 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
> Skarsgård might need to upgrade its "walk like a human" code
How does he decide what to do with his hands?!
> I think I'll just buy the shirt.
That isn't a licensed shirt. Apple probably has the merch license, including Sanctuary Moon. And now I'm bummed, because it seems unlikely there will be official, legit merch.
> I thought it was interesting that MurderBot kept distinguishing between humans and augmented humans.
Wells has said that Murderbot does that because augmented humans are more of a threat, esp. because they'll more easily detect its hacked governor module.
posted by Pronoiac at 10:42 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Lol people saying Sarsgard is too masculine and too sexy to play a robot is just so hateful.
posted by muddgirl at 11:05 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 11:05 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I mean, not to play any robot. Just to play this robot.
posted by potrzebie at 11:36 PM on December 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 11:36 PM on December 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
Really looking forward to the scenes of people standing around silently while they communicate back and forth on the feed, followed by scenes of murderbot mysteriously being admitted into high-security areas because it has already hacked the system in a few milliseconds.
posted by The Tensor at 11:39 PM on December 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by The Tensor at 11:39 PM on December 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
Is this casting why we’ve never got a Lois bujold vorkosigan series - the main character has to be played by a conventionally attractive actor?
posted by The River Ivel at 11:59 PM on December 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 11:59 PM on December 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
That's probably part of it!
posted by potrzebie at 12:03 AM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 12:03 AM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Trying to get away with casting a cishet actor in a non-binary part in a franchise with a huge queer fanbase seems like a terrible idea. They're going to get destroyed on Tiktok.
posted by zymil at 12:13 AM on December 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by zymil at 12:13 AM on December 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
I often think about how sometime in the late 70s, Sigourney Weaver walked into a room and they decided Ripley doesn't need to be a dim brute. Ripley just needs to be brave and clever. And love her cat. It's not like steroids are going to give you an edge with the xenomorph. So they cast this skinny white lady as the hero that outsmarts the universe's most terrifying monster. Acid for blood, and when it opens it's mouth another mouth shoots out!
So we got Ellen Ripley in 1979. Massive success, a sci-fi classic with a genre defying hero. Turns out, you can have a skinny woman as the badass hero. So, of course, the next decade was dominated by braindead steroid meatballs. 1979!
posted by adept256 at 1:02 AM on December 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
So we got Ellen Ripley in 1979. Massive success, a sci-fi classic with a genre defying hero. Turns out, you can have a skinny woman as the badass hero. So, of course, the next decade was dominated by braindead steroid meatballs. 1979!
posted by adept256 at 1:02 AM on December 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
There are some shadings of… something at a couple points with Doctor Mensah, but it’s not really romantic love
It's not straightforwardly romantic, but Murderbot just desperately loves Dr. Mensah and ART. The feelings are very uncomfortable to it and it doesn't know what to do with the feelings apart from killing all who threaten them, but they're there.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:56 AM on December 15, 2023 [27 favorites]
It's not straightforwardly romantic, but Murderbot just desperately loves Dr. Mensah and ART. The feelings are very uncomfortable to it and it doesn't know what to do with the feelings apart from killing all who threaten them, but they're there.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:56 AM on December 15, 2023 [27 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace
Well, now I'm imagining a mashup where Murderbot gets psych help from a Banksian ship-mind.
posted by kaibutsu at 2:10 AM on December 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
Well, now I'm imagining a mashup where Murderbot gets psych help from a Banksian ship-mind.
posted by kaibutsu at 2:10 AM on December 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm just in the middle of a re-listen of these books, so I'm super excited to see this. But I agree that the casting of the lead isn't the best - however, I had been picturing murderbot as male, since that's the voice in the audiobooks. Such great books!! Now do The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet as a series. It's already written so that each chapter is a different character's story, each episode would be unique, but still fit together.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 2:27 AM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 2:27 AM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’m only aware of the subject material from discussions here, but I think A. Skarsgård the Actor has an amazing capacity to seem & be deeply affected by the atrocities that occur around and with and because of his characters, while also seeming totally alienated from the action in which he’s participating. so..?
Anyway, does one start with the first novel, or what?
posted by hototogisu at 2:32 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Anyway, does one start with the first novel, or what?
posted by hototogisu at 2:32 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hototogisu,
Or what works, but starting with the first book is best.
posted by BlueHorse at 2:46 AM on December 15, 2023
Or what works, but starting with the first book is best.
posted by BlueHorse at 2:46 AM on December 15, 2023
> "Anyway, does one start with the first novel, or what?"
The first novella, but yeah. It's probably best to read the series in chronological order.
posted by kyrademon at 2:50 AM on December 15, 2023
The first novella, but yeah. It's probably best to read the series in chronological order.
posted by kyrademon at 2:50 AM on December 15, 2023
Anyway, does one start with the first novel, or what?
Just speaking strictly, you wouldn't want to start with the first NOVEL as it's the fifth in the series. They're mostly novellas. Book 6 takes place in between books 4 and 5.
Yes, lots of people kvetch about being asked to pay novel prices for novellas.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:19 AM on December 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just speaking strictly, you wouldn't want to start with the first NOVEL as it's the fifth in the series. They're mostly novellas. Book 6 takes place in between books 4 and 5.
Yes, lots of people kvetch about being asked to pay novel prices for novellas.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:19 AM on December 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tumblr suggested Katy O'Brian to me as a potential Murderbot... and I would not be against that.
posted by humbug at 3:36 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by humbug at 3:36 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Janelle Monae.
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:48 AM on December 15, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:48 AM on December 15, 2023 [16 favorites]
Well shit. Definitely not my Murderbot.
My family is doing Jolabokaflod this year and I've already got my ace sister All Systems Red in actual physical form because I'm convinced she'll love it and strongly relate to Murderbot and it'll give her something to read while I do my annual Die Hard rewatch.
posted by Molesome at 3:59 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
My family is doing Jolabokaflod this year and I've already got my ace sister All Systems Red in actual physical form because I'm convinced she'll love it and strongly relate to Murderbot and it'll give her something to read while I do my annual Die Hard rewatch.
posted by Molesome at 3:59 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Was really confused at all the complaining about Alexander Skarsgård until I realized I had confused him with Bill Skarsgård.
The only Skarsgård actor I knew of was Stellan. Glossed over the first name and was also very confused by some of the comments.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 4:15 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
The only Skarsgård actor I knew of was Stellan. Glossed over the first name and was also very confused by some of the comments.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 4:15 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Is this casting why we’ve never got a Lois bujold vorkosigan series - the main character has to be played by a conventionally attractive actor?
Partly. She's also posted that she did option one of her books once and was so appalled by the script that, when the option lapsed, she resolved never to do that again.
posted by Mogur at 4:35 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Partly. She's also posted that she did option one of her books once and was so appalled by the script that, when the option lapsed, she resolved never to do that again.
posted by Mogur at 4:35 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
I skimmed through the text to see if Murderbot is ever referred to a male or female by any of the characters who think it is human. I couldn't find any (though it wasn't a close read). Murderbot is not described in detail so it could look like anyone, including Alexander Skarsgård.
I always imagined a white male who big enough to be intimidating, but that is just me.
posted by antiwiggle at 5:00 AM on December 15, 2023
I always imagined a white male who big enough to be intimidating, but that is just me.
posted by antiwiggle at 5:00 AM on December 15, 2023
The Murderbot voice sounds like Hillary Swank in my head and has pretty much since the first pages of All Systems Red. This is probably from liking the terrible live action version of Aeon Flux too much.
posted by bonehead at 5:15 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 5:15 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yes, lots of people kvetch about being asked to pay novel prices for novellas.
Although I think Tor has offered the first books of the series for free, a few times now, so if someone wanted to wait a bit, they might be able to snag them without paying.
the terrible live action version of Aeon Flux
I saw the animated series (not the shorts, but the series) on one or other of the streaming services the other day and thought...wait...why? Is it coming back? Could it be?
posted by mittens at 5:19 AM on December 15, 2023
Although I think Tor has offered the first books of the series for free, a few times now, so if someone wanted to wait a bit, they might be able to snag them without paying.
the terrible live action version of Aeon Flux
I saw the animated series (not the shorts, but the series) on one or other of the streaming services the other day and thought...wait...why? Is it coming back? Could it be?
posted by mittens at 5:19 AM on December 15, 2023
This means of course, that ART needs to be voiced by John Rafter Lee, or Troy Baker, if he's not available.
posted by bonehead at 5:19 AM on December 15, 2023
posted by bonehead at 5:19 AM on December 15, 2023
I'm referring to the 2005 movie with Ms. Swank, mittens.
posted by bonehead at 5:21 AM on December 15, 2023
posted by bonehead at 5:21 AM on December 15, 2023
Generic burly white dude is exactly how I picture Murderbot. Designed by someone who thinks that's going to blend in best. For the record, I thought the "light brown"s in the books were a piss-take on calling white people "white".
For whoever asked way upthread about How to Get Away With Murder, it is absolute trash, the kind of trash that some find glorious. My wife and I white-knuckled it through the first season, and then they killed off the only character who had the sense the gods gave a monkey, and it became unwatchable. So, it's a perfect model for Sanctuary Moon.
I can see why someone autistic or who calls themself asexual could really enjoy Murderbot, but IMHO it's introverts that the book is appealing to. I love Murderbot because it just wants the humans to shut the fuck up.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 5:24 AM on December 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
For whoever asked way upthread about How to Get Away With Murder, it is absolute trash, the kind of trash that some find glorious. My wife and I white-knuckled it through the first season, and then they killed off the only character who had the sense the gods gave a monkey, and it became unwatchable. So, it's a perfect model for Sanctuary Moon.
I can see why someone autistic or who calls themself asexual could really enjoy Murderbot, but IMHO it's introverts that the book is appealing to. I love Murderbot because it just wants the humans to shut the fuck up.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 5:24 AM on December 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
Lol people saying Sarsgard is too masculine and too sexy to play a robot is just so hateful.
Cyborg. Not robot.
Even before I realised that Murderbot wasn't gendered in the text I never pictured it as either male or female. Probably helps that I'm nonbinary myself?
I picture it as one of those people who are bulky and strong without being obviously ripped. Sort of smooth and rounded, like a seal (the animal, not the military human).
posted by Zumbador at 5:29 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I get reading MurderBot as Arnold, but he was cast so opposite what the script described in those action movies. T-800 is an infiltration unit designed to sneak into human resistance areas. In the first act of Total Recall he’s supposed to be an ordinary dude pining for adventure. The milquetoast computer salesman who Jamie Lee Curtis finds dull in True Lies. The man who disappears into every crowd in Eraser.
The high speed, maximum engagement combat or the cubicle where it gets repaired in the first book kind of remind me of Ghost In the Shell.
posted by theclaw at 5:42 AM on December 15, 2023
The high speed, maximum engagement combat or the cubicle where it gets repaired in the first book kind of remind me of Ghost In the Shell.
posted by theclaw at 5:42 AM on December 15, 2023
Y'all, this is a perfect wild swing. We know that SecUnits on shows don't look or act anything like real SecUnits. Apple has performed a delightful meta commentary on its own actions.
(this is some BS casting for reals, tho)
posted by curious nu at 5:42 AM on December 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
(this is some BS casting for reals, tho)
posted by curious nu at 5:42 AM on December 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
Ugggg! I read the MurderBot series as an adolescent female (thinking ‘bout my adolescent niece who spends her time hold up in her room watching Sanctuary Moon). Recently I listened to the audio book of System Collapse, and just could not get over the male voice.
Very disappointing casting.
posted by xtian at 5:43 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Very disappointing casting.
posted by xtian at 5:43 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I pictured a Det. Rosa Diaz type. Not burly but a complete badass, and always a little exasperated with having to interact with anybody.
posted by whuppy at 5:49 AM on December 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by whuppy at 5:49 AM on December 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
Murderbot read as female to me because she’s not allowed to be autonomous.
posted by whuppy at 5:54 AM on December 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by whuppy at 5:54 AM on December 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
I have not read the books nor am I familiar with them. Is the Murderbot supposed to look like a human? Like a human wearing human clothes? Or a humanoid robot?... a metal/plastic thing? It sounds from this discussion that the actual appearance of it is up to the reader, but is it described at all? I'm just curious.
posted by SoberHighland at 5:55 AM on December 15, 2023
posted by SoberHighland at 5:55 AM on December 15, 2023
adept256 wrote: Hmmm. Unstoppable remorseless cyborg killing machine. That's a terminator.[...]Of course I thought Murderbot looks like Arnie! [...] I'm thinking the ultimate killer robot is[...]
It's like you've taken the series title (and the in-world propaganda about rogue SecUnits) at face value. (Plus SecUnits aren't even CombatBots, let alone the genocide machines you're imagining as their somehow ideal form.)
If you're just pissed off that a white guy got a job, I don't think that's very healthy for you.
It feels like you're just enjoying being a bit of a jerk with this, but surely you can imagine there's at least a subset of readers for whom Murderbot (self-named as such! and semi-ironically!) being agender has import.
potrzebie wrote: Most people in a sexist society designing a SecUnit would probably try to make it physically intimidating and therefore big and burly.
Not taking issue with any of your (well-nuanced in full context) comment, and maybe I'm just misremembering, but are the societies described in these books sexist like ours?
posted by nobody at 5:57 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's like you've taken the series title (and the in-world propaganda about rogue SecUnits) at face value. (Plus SecUnits aren't even CombatBots, let alone the genocide machines you're imagining as their somehow ideal form.)
If you're just pissed off that a white guy got a job, I don't think that's very healthy for you.
It feels like you're just enjoying being a bit of a jerk with this, but surely you can imagine there's at least a subset of readers for whom Murderbot (self-named as such! and semi-ironically!) being agender has import.
potrzebie wrote: Most people in a sexist society designing a SecUnit would probably try to make it physically intimidating and therefore big and burly.
Not taking issue with any of your (well-nuanced in full context) comment, and maybe I'm just misremembering, but are the societies described in these books sexist like ours?
posted by nobody at 5:57 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Per Martha Wells on Mastodon - there is official merch, but only from two places (this site, and one person on Etsy who made a pin that is already sold)
posted by caution live frogs at 6:02 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by caution live frogs at 6:02 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I headcanon Sanctuary Moon as a kdrama
I always think of "Camp Pining Hearts" from Steven Universe. Also Ann Leckie's Translation State had characters who were watching a similar thing, and now they're all kind of mashed up in my head in a delightful way.
I have not read the books nor am I familiar with them. Is the Murderbot supposed to look like a human? Like a human wearing human clothes?
Murderbot is a cyborg with human body parts, but as I understand it, wouldn't be mistaken for human except maybe in really poor light. When on duty, it generally also wears intimidating robot-looking armor.
I have aphantasia as well as being non-binary myself, so... to me Murderbot is just sort of generically not that humanlike, since it dedicates so many words to complaining about humans. I don't always assign a "sound" to particular character's voice but to me it would have to be somewhere between Marvin the Paranoid Android, GladOS, Alan Rickman in a "weary of all of you" mode a la Galaxy Quest, and Tilda Swinton.
posted by Foosnark at 6:04 AM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
I always think of "Camp Pining Hearts" from Steven Universe. Also Ann Leckie's Translation State had characters who were watching a similar thing, and now they're all kind of mashed up in my head in a delightful way.
I have not read the books nor am I familiar with them. Is the Murderbot supposed to look like a human? Like a human wearing human clothes?
Murderbot is a cyborg with human body parts, but as I understand it, wouldn't be mistaken for human except maybe in really poor light. When on duty, it generally also wears intimidating robot-looking armor.
I have aphantasia as well as being non-binary myself, so... to me Murderbot is just sort of generically not that humanlike, since it dedicates so many words to complaining about humans. I don't always assign a "sound" to particular character's voice but to me it would have to be somewhere between Marvin the Paranoid Android, GladOS, Alan Rickman in a "weary of all of you" mode a la Galaxy Quest, and Tilda Swinton.
posted by Foosnark at 6:04 AM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Murderbot can pass for human if it is clothed and covered, yes. It does so a few times in the books.
posted by bonehead at 6:04 AM on December 15, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 6:04 AM on December 15, 2023 [12 favorites]
OK, guess I need to reread! Good time for it too with the new book just released.
posted by Foosnark at 6:06 AM on December 15, 2023
posted by Foosnark at 6:06 AM on December 15, 2023
Also. I’m a middle aged cis het white dude and I was pretty much shocked that they didn’t cast a female-presenting lead for Murderbot. In my head it always presented as built on a female frame. I never read it as “big bulky and masculine”… If you don’t see how a female-presenting individual can be intimidating, you don’t know the right people I guess.
And yes, agree with everyone here that Murderbot having any romantic feelings means the producers didn’t get the story at all. Murderbot just wants to be left alone to watch entertainment feeds. But still, despite the casting confusion and the concern over whether they’ll understand what makes the series great, I’m cautiously excited about this.
posted by caution live frogs at 6:09 AM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
And yes, agree with everyone here that Murderbot having any romantic feelings means the producers didn’t get the story at all. Murderbot just wants to be left alone to watch entertainment feeds. But still, despite the casting confusion and the concern over whether they’ll understand what makes the series great, I’m cautiously excited about this.
posted by caution live frogs at 6:09 AM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
And yes, agree with everyone here that Murderbot having any romantic feelings means the producers didn’t get the story at all.
Oh, no no no: it DOES have romantic feelings, but HATES it and doesn't know what to do about them. Not romantic in the sexy sense, but of deep attachment, both to Mensah and its weird love/hate relationship with ART.
Anything like traditional romance is untrue to the books, but a well-done show will make it clear that Murderbot has deep emotional attachments and that these make it deeply uncomfortable.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:17 AM on December 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
Oh, no no no: it DOES have romantic feelings, but HATES it and doesn't know what to do about them. Not romantic in the sexy sense, but of deep attachment, both to Mensah and its weird love/hate relationship with ART.
Anything like traditional romance is untrue to the books, but a well-done show will make it clear that Murderbot has deep emotional attachments and that these make it deeply uncomfortable.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:17 AM on December 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
> "Murderbot can pass for human if it is clothed and covered, yes. It does so a few times in the books."
A little more specifically -- there are humans who look like normal humans, and there are also humans with visible cyborg modifications. Murderbot passes as a human with far more cyborg modifications than is typical, but not to a completely unheard-of degree (during an attempt to pass as human, one observer assumes Murderbot must have been in a terrible accident.) Attempts to pass as human are aided by the fact that in a specific policy meant to dehumanize them, SecUnits such as Murderbot are fully covered up including a head-covering HUD-type helmet when interacting with anyone, and most people think that's just what they look like (i.e., that there's no human face under there, more like a droid.)
posted by kyrademon at 6:26 AM on December 15, 2023 [15 favorites]
A little more specifically -- there are humans who look like normal humans, and there are also humans with visible cyborg modifications. Murderbot passes as a human with far more cyborg modifications than is typical, but not to a completely unheard-of degree (during an attempt to pass as human, one observer assumes Murderbot must have been in a terrible accident.) Attempts to pass as human are aided by the fact that in a specific policy meant to dehumanize them, SecUnits such as Murderbot are fully covered up including a head-covering HUD-type helmet when interacting with anyone, and most people think that's just what they look like (i.e., that there's no human face under there, more like a droid.)
posted by kyrademon at 6:26 AM on December 15, 2023 [15 favorites]
I'm referring to the 2005 movie with Ms. Swank, mittens.
Chalize Theron. Who is also not a good Murderbot, but is as good a live action Æon Flux as we could have had. The property just doesn't translate well into live action.
posted by Molesome at 6:33 AM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Chalize Theron. Who is also not a good Murderbot, but is as good a live action Æon Flux as we could have had. The property just doesn't translate well into live action.
posted by Molesome at 6:33 AM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
I too have had trouble picturing Murderbot as anything but androgynous-female presenting; maybe a Ruby Rose type, or a Katee Sackhoff Starbuck vibe. Tatiana Maslany could also probably pull it off.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:42 AM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:42 AM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
A bit of a close reading of Apple's press release
I stumbled over the "it" pronoun at first but a quick refresher tells me that's consistent with the books. There's even a whole scholarly paper about pronouns for Murderbot (as an example of changing understanding of gender in US society). So that's encouraging, the show blurb seems to be respecting the source material.
The question is if Alexander Skarsgård can be Murderbot. I have a lot of faith in him as an actor, he has a lot of range. True Blood is the closest role to Murderbot, an inhuman and powerful and sexy killer. He's also remarkable in Little Drummer Girl, a completely different role, romantic but almost shy. He gave very close emotional reading of scenes, his chemistry with Florence Pugh was the best part of the show and more than a little uncomfortable. The Israeli spy role is almost entirely the opposite of his turn in Succession where he plays an asshole tech bro, an Elon Musk type. But even though that last role is as far from sexy as possible Skarsgård's charming masculinity still comes through.
His presence on screen is just so much a sexy man... I think the actor will understand the requirement of the agender role, I sure hope so since he's also Executive Producing. I think the actor is up to the challenge but it's going to take some convincing. Costume will go a long way but after Mandalorian I am definitely done with Buckethead shows.
The Weitz brothers are the other big name in the press release, Chris and Paul. I don't have a strong sense of them as filmmakers although they're certainly quite successful and competent. The closest genre works they've done are The Golden Compass and Twilight: New Moon, neither of which I think were particularly successful artistically. Big ol' question mark here, I guess.
I worry this project is more motivated by a business decision than a deep love of the source material. "These books are popular and we can make a TV adaptation at a reasonable budget," rather than "I grew up with these books and can't wait to imagine them on screen". So far they haven't done any of the fan tour press where they reassure everyone about how brilliant their vision is (ideally with the author giving their endorsement). Maybe that'll reassure everyone.
Another Murderbot casting suggestion: Frankie Adams. Now I want to see a Sanctuary Moon spinoff that's a retread of Charlie's Angels with SecUnits. Starring Adams alongside Florence Pugh and Gwendoline Christie as the cyborg angels. Stellan Skarsgård could be Charlie.
I wonder if Blu del Barrio has any time in their schedule?
posted by Nelson at 6:47 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
“Murderbot” is an action-packed sci-fi series, based on the award-winning books by Wells, about a self-hacking security android who is horrified by human emotion yet drawn to its vulnerable “clients.” Murderbot must hide its free will and complete a dangerous assignment when all it really wants is to be left alone to watch futuristic soap operas and figure out its place in the universe.That's a pretty good summary. They got Murderbot's self-hacking, the emotional affect, the connection to clients, and the soap operas. They even name-checked the author right up front, respect.
I stumbled over the "it" pronoun at first but a quick refresher tells me that's consistent with the books. There's even a whole scholarly paper about pronouns for Murderbot (as an example of changing understanding of gender in US society). So that's encouraging, the show blurb seems to be respecting the source material.
The question is if Alexander Skarsgård can be Murderbot. I have a lot of faith in him as an actor, he has a lot of range. True Blood is the closest role to Murderbot, an inhuman and powerful and sexy killer. He's also remarkable in Little Drummer Girl, a completely different role, romantic but almost shy. He gave very close emotional reading of scenes, his chemistry with Florence Pugh was the best part of the show and more than a little uncomfortable. The Israeli spy role is almost entirely the opposite of his turn in Succession where he plays an asshole tech bro, an Elon Musk type. But even though that last role is as far from sexy as possible Skarsgård's charming masculinity still comes through.
His presence on screen is just so much a sexy man... I think the actor will understand the requirement of the agender role, I sure hope so since he's also Executive Producing. I think the actor is up to the challenge but it's going to take some convincing. Costume will go a long way but after Mandalorian I am definitely done with Buckethead shows.
The Weitz brothers are the other big name in the press release, Chris and Paul. I don't have a strong sense of them as filmmakers although they're certainly quite successful and competent. The closest genre works they've done are The Golden Compass and Twilight: New Moon, neither of which I think were particularly successful artistically. Big ol' question mark here, I guess.
I worry this project is more motivated by a business decision than a deep love of the source material. "These books are popular and we can make a TV adaptation at a reasonable budget," rather than "I grew up with these books and can't wait to imagine them on screen". So far they haven't done any of the fan tour press where they reassure everyone about how brilliant their vision is (ideally with the author giving their endorsement). Maybe that'll reassure everyone.
Another Murderbot casting suggestion: Frankie Adams. Now I want to see a Sanctuary Moon spinoff that's a retread of Charlie's Angels with SecUnits. Starring Adams alongside Florence Pugh and Gwendoline Christie as the cyborg angels. Stellan Skarsgård could be Charlie.
I wonder if Blu del Barrio has any time in their schedule?
posted by Nelson at 6:47 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't read Murderbot's attachment to Dr. Mensah as romantic -- more familial? Not parent-child -- well, okay, it possibly starts out that way, but Murderbot refuses to put up with that and it's right not to -- more like beloved-aunt/beloved-nibling. Murderbot looks up to Dr. Mensah, admires and values her, loves her deeply, will do anything at all to protect her.
But key to the relationship is that neither changes what they are for the other -- they fight really hard not to, in fact, both of them, even when it's objectively a silly fight and they're both wrong! GET THERAPY YOU NIMRODS! -- nor are they as a pair greater than the sum of their parts... which for me veers the relationship a long way away from romantic.
And I love Murderbot (and Wells) for a love that deep between biologically-unrelated characters that isn't actually romantic. Don't get to see that often.
ART (aka Perihelion, "as close as it gets" and I do not think that monicker an accident)... is a slightly different story, and it's why I hesitate just the tiniest bit to call Murderbot aro, though I think aro reads on Murderbot are completely valid and supported by the text.
posted by humbug at 6:48 AM on December 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
But key to the relationship is that neither changes what they are for the other -- they fight really hard not to, in fact, both of them, even when it's objectively a silly fight and they're both wrong! GET THERAPY YOU NIMRODS! -- nor are they as a pair greater than the sum of their parts... which for me veers the relationship a long way away from romantic.
And I love Murderbot (and Wells) for a love that deep between biologically-unrelated characters that isn't actually romantic. Don't get to see that often.
ART (aka Perihelion, "as close as it gets" and I do not think that monicker an accident)... is a slightly different story, and it's why I hesitate just the tiniest bit to call Murderbot aro, though I think aro reads on Murderbot are completely valid and supported by the text.
posted by humbug at 6:48 AM on December 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
In my head it always presented as built on a female frame. I never read it as “big bulky and masculine”
I realized last night, reading through the just-released (and unfortunately poorly reviewed, I’ve just started) novel System Collapse, that my mental image actually varies heavily over the course of the series.
In the first novella All Systems Red when it is wearing its armor and very much written as far more tanklike in nature my mental image was - as I said upthread - Gwendoline Christie, shaved, with a masculine torso. Moving in a stiff way that absolutely dominates its immediate space like Arnold in Terminator 2.
After it loses the armor and goes station-hopping semi-on-the-run, my mental image shifts to something far more vulnerable. Sigourney Weaver’s shaved head for Aliens 3, on a body …not entirely dissimilar from Skarsgård in The Northman, actually, with his buff but not huge frame, and with body language/movement straight out of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo.
From The Network Effect on, pretty much the same character with slightly more open and comfortable body language, combined with pantherlike fluidity during all action scenes.
I’m not entirely sure where I’m picking all this up from, but I’ve read the whole series between three and five times so there must be something subtextual in the language Wells uses regarding Murderbot’s relationship with its environment.
posted by Ryvar at 6:49 AM on December 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I realized last night, reading through the just-released (and unfortunately poorly reviewed, I’ve just started) novel System Collapse, that my mental image actually varies heavily over the course of the series.
In the first novella All Systems Red when it is wearing its armor and very much written as far more tanklike in nature my mental image was - as I said upthread - Gwendoline Christie, shaved, with a masculine torso. Moving in a stiff way that absolutely dominates its immediate space like Arnold in Terminator 2.
After it loses the armor and goes station-hopping semi-on-the-run, my mental image shifts to something far more vulnerable. Sigourney Weaver’s shaved head for Aliens 3, on a body …not entirely dissimilar from Skarsgård in The Northman, actually, with his buff but not huge frame, and with body language/movement straight out of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo.
From The Network Effect on, pretty much the same character with slightly more open and comfortable body language, combined with pantherlike fluidity during all action scenes.
I’m not entirely sure where I’m picking all this up from, but I’ve read the whole series between three and five times so there must be something subtextual in the language Wells uses regarding Murderbot’s relationship with its environment.
posted by Ryvar at 6:49 AM on December 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
It would be highly amusing were the show to make one of Murderbot's shows (that it hatewatches) a lurid drama about "a SecBot who falls in love".
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:51 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:51 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
I always pictured the SecUits & MurderBot as having the absolute bare minimum of facial features necessary - like the manufacturer acknowledges that the SecUnits might need to communicate via facial expressions but they don't actually care much if ordinary humans find them weird or off-putting. (As kyrademon notes, SecUnits spend most of their time under a helmet anyway. Why bother putting a lot of detail into something that will rarely if ever be seen?)
Something like the "unfinished" look of the robots in "I Robot" only maybe with eyebrows, eyelashes, and hair. So there would be an strong element of agender or genderless presentation, in the face anyway.
If they go that route with makeup/prosthetics/CGI and Skarsgård quits working out 18 times a week (he's ripped but he's not Schwarzenegger/The Rock huge) it might not be horrible?
posted by soundguy99 at 6:52 AM on December 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Something like the "unfinished" look of the robots in "I Robot" only maybe with eyebrows, eyelashes, and hair. So there would be an strong element of agender or genderless presentation, in the face anyway.
If they go that route with makeup/prosthetics/CGI and Skarsgård quits working out 18 times a week (he's ripped but he's not Schwarzenegger/The Rock huge) it might not be horrible?
posted by soundguy99 at 6:52 AM on December 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Some fandoms will never be satisfied by anything. That's not a criticism, just a reality.
It seems clear from this comment thread that everyone views Murderbot differently, so no casting would satisfy everyone (or even most people). No, Skarsgård isn't who I pictured in the role, but he's a good actor, and let's wait and see what he does with it.
Personally, I could see benefit to the idea that virtually everyone else in the series is non-white, but the SecUnit manufacturers chose generic-looking white men for maximum intimidation potential. The difference between Murderbot's internal life (agender, melancholic, etc.) and their external life (dangerous and intimidating) is one of the major themes of the series.
I for one am super-excited for this series, and I look forward to seeing what they do with it.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 6:56 AM on December 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
It seems clear from this comment thread that everyone views Murderbot differently, so no casting would satisfy everyone (or even most people). No, Skarsgård isn't who I pictured in the role, but he's a good actor, and let's wait and see what he does with it.
Personally, I could see benefit to the idea that virtually everyone else in the series is non-white, but the SecUnit manufacturers chose generic-looking white men for maximum intimidation potential. The difference between Murderbot's internal life (agender, melancholic, etc.) and their external life (dangerous and intimidating) is one of the major themes of the series.
I for one am super-excited for this series, and I look forward to seeing what they do with it.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 6:56 AM on December 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
Now that I think about other female leads from Karyn Kusama movies, Nicole Kidman in Destroyer (2018) gives strong Murderbot vibes - "seriously, a bank heist? I guess I'm dealing with this bullshit now then" *gets machinegun out of trunk*
posted by Molesome at 6:56 AM on December 15, 2023
posted by Molesome at 6:56 AM on December 15, 2023
If looking for swag, remember...
Martha Wells @marthawells.bsky.social
FYI: There are only TWO licensed sellers of Murderbot-related merch:
1. Worldbuilders Market: Pins, Sanctuary Moon t-shirt, books, to raise funds for charities like Heifer International, Mercy Corps, etc
2. [sadly sold out pin] https://www.etsy.com/listing/1427524423/murderbot-officially-licensed-pin
posted by Lookinguppy at 7:01 AM on December 15, 2023
Martha Wells @marthawells.bsky.social
FYI: There are only TWO licensed sellers of Murderbot-related merch:
1. Worldbuilders Market: Pins, Sanctuary Moon t-shirt, books, to raise funds for charities like Heifer International, Mercy Corps, etc
2. [sadly sold out pin] https://www.etsy.com/listing/1427524423/murderbot-officially-licensed-pin
posted by Lookinguppy at 7:01 AM on December 15, 2023
As with most things, I'll keep my expectations low and hope to be surprised. I tend to prefer having adaptations available even if they often fall short, although the McMaster Bujold anecdote up-thread is making me reconsider that general attitude.
I'm far from the best perspective on what differentiates romance from other types of love and emotion, but the note Murderbot writes to Mensah at the end of (I think) the first book made it quite clear to me that it Feels (capital F) even if those feelings are not romantic, sexual, or even consciously self-aware.
posted by audi alteram partem at 7:18 AM on December 15, 2023
I'm far from the best perspective on what differentiates romance from other types of love and emotion, but the note Murderbot writes to Mensah at the end of (I think) the first book made it quite clear to me that it Feels (capital F) even if those feelings are not romantic, sexual, or even consciously self-aware.
posted by audi alteram partem at 7:18 AM on December 15, 2023
if there's even a WHIFF of physical or emotional attachment I am OUT.
Excuse me, SecUnit is attached to its humans. Even, eventually, Garathin.
So is ART. Look at the lengths they go to. Love is an action as well as an emotion.
posted by bq at 8:02 AM on December 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
Excuse me, SecUnit is attached to its humans. Even, eventually, Garathin.
So is ART. Look at the lengths they go to. Love is an action as well as an emotion.
posted by bq at 8:02 AM on December 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
I skimmed through the text to see if Murderbot is ever referred to a male or female by any of the characters who think it is human
In a memorable moment a character addresses it as "Mom" (sarcastically, but in a society that has a varied amount of terms for parents, including non gendered ones). And amusingly the one person who genders Murderbot is itself, once - when it's pretending to be a SecUnit under the control of its offstage human alter ego, it refers to Consultant Rin as she. Of course it probably picked the name from a serial, but it's telling.
And yeah, even the hypercapitalist corporations in this world respect people's neopronouns, and I think we know of one two-person marriage to at least half a dozen permanent poly arrangements (on top of ethical nonmonogamy). ART definitely reads Mensah as Murderbot's family, to the point of having a cleaning freakout about meeting her, and ART's relationship with Murderbot has all the romantic tropes apart from, you know, the actual physical stuff.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 8:02 AM on December 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
In a memorable moment a character addresses it as "Mom" (sarcastically, but in a society that has a varied amount of terms for parents, including non gendered ones). And amusingly the one person who genders Murderbot is itself, once - when it's pretending to be a SecUnit under the control of its offstage human alter ego, it refers to Consultant Rin as she. Of course it probably picked the name from a serial, but it's telling.
And yeah, even the hypercapitalist corporations in this world respect people's neopronouns, and I think we know of one two-person marriage to at least half a dozen permanent poly arrangements (on top of ethical nonmonogamy). ART definitely reads Mensah as Murderbot's family, to the point of having a cleaning freakout about meeting her, and ART's relationship with Murderbot has all the romantic tropes apart from, you know, the actual physical stuff.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 8:02 AM on December 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
I’ve been picturing Robocop all this time, which is probably a function of my Gen-X-ness.
posted by bq at 8:03 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by bq at 8:03 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Murderbot is pos def canonically ace, but I have deep reservations as reading it as aro. Amena in Network Effect very strongly implies she sees its relationship with ART as some form of romantic, supported by the cleaning binge mentioned by I claim sanctuary.
There are SOME sort of feelings there, lampshaded by a human's comment, "If there's anyone who believes constructs can't have emotions, they need to be in this VERY awkward room right now." (I may have slightly misworded that? But that's the core sense.)
One thing about Murderbot's build: to pass as an augmented human better, as well as look less like Standard Issue SecUnit (apparently they're all the same size, like Stormtroopers), ART shortens its leg bones a couple centimeters. So likely on the tall side, originally.
posted by Quasirandom at 8:24 AM on December 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
There are SOME sort of feelings there, lampshaded by a human's comment, "If there's anyone who believes constructs can't have emotions, they need to be in this VERY awkward room right now." (I may have slightly misworded that? But that's the core sense.)
One thing about Murderbot's build: to pass as an augmented human better, as well as look less like Standard Issue SecUnit (apparently they're all the same size, like Stormtroopers), ART shortens its leg bones a couple centimeters. So likely on the tall side, originally.
posted by Quasirandom at 8:24 AM on December 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
agreed the choice of cis het white dude is extremely disappointing but also AS is 47. like, that's ok but I would love to see the role go to:
young (does secunit really represent as middle aged?)
brown
queer or nonbinary
not the Big Star we all know, give someone up and coming a shot!! (Vico Ortiz would be brilliant, as suggested above). oh well. (still gonna watch!)
posted by supermedusa at 8:41 AM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
young (does secunit really represent as middle aged?)
brown
queer or nonbinary
not the Big Star we all know, give someone up and coming a shot!! (Vico Ortiz would be brilliant, as suggested above). oh well. (still gonna watch!)
posted by supermedusa at 8:41 AM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've often wondered who could convincingly play Miles Vorkosigan. My top two picks are Linda Hunt and Rowan Atkinson.
posted by ovvl at 8:50 AM on December 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by ovvl at 8:50 AM on December 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
On the one hand, yes, better casting would have been nice.
On the other hand, Apple's poor casting is probably equivalent to the bad choices the corporate engineers would make.
The Murderbot Diaries, brought to you by Barish-Estranza!
posted by kaibutsu at 8:50 AM on December 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
On the other hand, Apple's poor casting is probably equivalent to the bad choices the corporate engineers would make.
The Murderbot Diaries, brought to you by Barish-Estranza!
posted by kaibutsu at 8:50 AM on December 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
The Murderbot Diaries, brought to you by Barish-Estranza!
I expect that to be just as bad as Timestream Defenders Orion.
posted by Quasirandom at 8:53 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
I expect that to be just as bad as Timestream Defenders Orion.
posted by Quasirandom at 8:53 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
I am fascinated by all the gender takes on this series that so greatly differ from my reading of the books as it highlights for me just how ingrained certain male-centered defaults are in my Gen X brain. Getting older seems to be either a lesson in humility or inflexibility, and I hope I lean toward the former more often than not.
posted by patrick rhett at 9:09 AM on December 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by patrick rhett at 9:09 AM on December 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
My Gen-X brain never coded Murderbot as male, so, mileage clearly varies.
posted by cooker girl at 9:24 AM on December 15, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 9:24 AM on December 15, 2023 [13 favorites]
I'm an old Gen-X too, and Murderbot seemed female-androgynous to me. perhaps that is just part of the brilliance's of Well's character, a mirror in which we all see so many possibilities.
posted by supermedusa at 9:43 AM on December 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 9:43 AM on December 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
I tend to expect disappointment from big budget adaptations with name-brand appeal because when an author like Wells writes a series like Murderbot they have a very specific audience in mind (ie nerdy, neurotic, lefty)
I would hazard a guess that writers hired by Apple have specific corporate requests in the form of KPIs like increased subscribers, viewing numbers, retention, etc. That creates a wholly different kind of writing and portrayal that will aim for appealing to whatever market segment that some data analyst(s) somewhere determined would drive these KPIs the best
there will be, of course, well meaning creatives and earnest folks on the teams who have read and love the series, who have love for the thematic content in Wells's series. They will all be beholden to the whims of executive / senior leadership which, in my experience, trend more towards mediocre/bad and micromanagey - the best leadership not only gets out of the way of the passionate true believers in whatever product is being developed but also does their best to get them the materials/funds/connections they need to make their vision happen
in terms of probability, I expect the worst from this series lol but am open to being pleasantly surprised. Regardless, I'm a 'try before you buy' type so will wait on discussions / borrowed log-ins before deciding to plop down a monthly fee for yet another gd subscription and probably would encourage everyone to adopt that model of patient, anti-consumerist cynicism that unfortunately strikes right more often than wrong
posted by paimapi at 9:45 AM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
I would hazard a guess that writers hired by Apple have specific corporate requests in the form of KPIs like increased subscribers, viewing numbers, retention, etc. That creates a wholly different kind of writing and portrayal that will aim for appealing to whatever market segment that some data analyst(s) somewhere determined would drive these KPIs the best
there will be, of course, well meaning creatives and earnest folks on the teams who have read and love the series, who have love for the thematic content in Wells's series. They will all be beholden to the whims of executive / senior leadership which, in my experience, trend more towards mediocre/bad and micromanagey - the best leadership not only gets out of the way of the passionate true believers in whatever product is being developed but also does their best to get them the materials/funds/connections they need to make their vision happen
in terms of probability, I expect the worst from this series lol but am open to being pleasantly surprised. Regardless, I'm a 'try before you buy' type so will wait on discussions / borrowed log-ins before deciding to plop down a monthly fee for yet another gd subscription and probably would encourage everyone to adopt that model of patient, anti-consumerist cynicism that unfortunately strikes right more often than wrong
posted by paimapi at 9:45 AM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Murderbot and ART squabble exactly like a romantic pair and also basically create a sort-of kid. They are a couple! Whoever does ARTs voice needs to have good chemistry with Skaarsgard.
I've always seen them both as male, for the record. Just for that reason I would have preferred a nonbinary or female actor for both to get me over that assumption.
posted by emjaybee at 9:52 AM on December 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've always seen them both as male, for the record. Just for that reason I would have preferred a nonbinary or female actor for both to get me over that assumption.
posted by emjaybee at 9:52 AM on December 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I, too, would have preferred to see a non-cis, non-white actor play Murderbot. It seems likely to me, though, that the casting of an actor of Skarsgård's level of fame/popularity was necessary for the show to get the green light.
posted by Tabitha Someday at 9:53 AM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Tabitha Someday at 9:53 AM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
re the gender convo - I didn't pick up any gender identifiers whatsoever that the character self-assigned. The one defining trait that I picked up was what I assume is an intentionally programmed generalized anxiety disorder which I think tends to read feminine to most because of our internalized misogyny (eg - the history of hysteria as a gender-specific disorder)
casting a name-brand cis-white actor is a KPI driven decision, not a true-to-Wells's vision decision. I think it would be very funny if the next book in the series mentioned how horrible Murderbot itself would feel having a conventionally attractive, well-known actor portray them in a series; it's something that I could very much see it believing
posted by paimapi at 9:55 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
casting a name-brand cis-white actor is a KPI driven decision, not a true-to-Wells's vision decision. I think it would be very funny if the next book in the series mentioned how horrible Murderbot itself would feel having a conventionally attractive, well-known actor portray them in a series; it's something that I could very much see it believing
posted by paimapi at 9:55 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Funny, in my head I always heard Murderbot's voice as queer male, mostly because of the excellent audiobook performances by Kevin R. Free who has a lovely gravelly style that conveys just the right amount of exasperation at absolutely everything.
posted by xthlc at 9:57 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by xthlc at 9:57 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm a cishet male elder millennial here and I interpreted Murderbot as physically femme-leaning androgynous, based on other characters' reactions to it during the "passing as a security consultant" sections that have already been mentioned. Then again, Wells' whole universe is less heavily gendered than our own, so maybe the alias isn't actually femme-coded, and "Mom" is not intended to imply a gender. I do wonder what this interpretation reveals about my own internal biases. Definitely interesting to read how others interpreted Murderbot!
I agree that having a middle-aged white guy play it is a disappointing choice, more in line with traditional Hollywood stereotyping than what we see in Wells' text. Then again, we live in our world, not Murderbot's, so I'm not surprised (just a bit disappointed). On preview, agree with paimapi -- Murderbot would be extremely annoyed about this casting.
I hope once this is released, someone who can sufficiently mimic Wells' voice for the character writes a review-as-fic about Murderbot reacting to the Murderbot adaptation, now that I'm thinking about it.
Also agree on "Likely ace, but not necessarily aro," based on the interactions with ART and the humans, again already highlighted in this thread. I interpret Murderbot as having strong feelings for its humans (and ART). Those feelings are complicated and not sexual, but I think the text supports that there's care/affection/desire for approval. The character isn't comfortable with those feelings, but I'd argue that struggling with that is pretty core to the story! I really hope they are able to investigate that without flattening it into Sexy Sex Time, but see earlier comment re: Hollywood reality.
posted by Alterscape at 10:07 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
I agree that having a middle-aged white guy play it is a disappointing choice, more in line with traditional Hollywood stereotyping than what we see in Wells' text. Then again, we live in our world, not Murderbot's, so I'm not surprised (just a bit disappointed). On preview, agree with paimapi -- Murderbot would be extremely annoyed about this casting.
I hope once this is released, someone who can sufficiently mimic Wells' voice for the character writes a review-as-fic about Murderbot reacting to the Murderbot adaptation, now that I'm thinking about it.
Also agree on "Likely ace, but not necessarily aro," based on the interactions with ART and the humans, again already highlighted in this thread. I interpret Murderbot as having strong feelings for its humans (and ART). Those feelings are complicated and not sexual, but I think the text supports that there's care/affection/desire for approval. The character isn't comfortable with those feelings, but I'd argue that struggling with that is pretty core to the story! I really hope they are able to investigate that without flattening it into Sexy Sex Time, but see earlier comment re: Hollywood reality.
posted by Alterscape at 10:07 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Martha Wells has been very quiet on Mastodon since the news broke. Of course she won't provide her own opinions about the casting. I cannot see that being a net positive action in any light. But I have to wonder. Also she has been juggling cancer treatments so it's understandable that she not want to engage with any kind of grar at all.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:15 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:15 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
I never pictured murderbot as a cis-het man, because it's essentially doing full-time, unpaid care work, which, idk
posted by Hermione Dies at 10:21 AM on December 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by Hermione Dies at 10:21 AM on December 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
I never saw Murderbot as intimidating in their at rest state. Sure with forearms blazing or totting a heavy weapon but not at rest. Much is made of how it has the ability to just blend in and be not noticed (even if it is worried about being noticed) and no one with Schwarzenegger or The Rock body type is going to blend in regardless of other attributes. Even on the height change I didn't picture Murderbot as especially tall just that all SecUnits were all exactly the same height and so a minor change is effective camouflage. Preferably shorter which is hard to fake.
Certainly if I was engineering a SecUnit they'd be old school crash test dummy average sized. A bit tall for a woman but otherwise well within average ranges. The world is made for average size (male) people and everything becomes easier for a construct if they can wear average size clothes, fit in average size transport, access average scaled equipment and generally never need accommodation for size. In the same way I'd expect SecUnits to be right handed.
posted by Mitheral at 10:50 AM on December 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
Certainly if I was engineering a SecUnit they'd be old school crash test dummy average sized. A bit tall for a woman but otherwise well within average ranges. The world is made for average size (male) people and everything becomes easier for a construct if they can wear average size clothes, fit in average size transport, access average scaled equipment and generally never need accommodation for size. In the same way I'd expect SecUnits to be right handed.
posted by Mitheral at 10:50 AM on December 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
Excuse me, SecUnit is attached to its humans. Even, eventually, Garathin.
So is ART. Look at the lengths they go to. Love is an action as well as an emotion.
Yes, fair, sorry. I meant "romantic" and said "emotional." Murderbot absolutely does form emotional attachments, much to its dismay and sometimes annoyance.
posted by humbug at 10:56 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
So is ART. Look at the lengths they go to. Love is an action as well as an emotion.
Yes, fair, sorry. I meant "romantic" and said "emotional." Murderbot absolutely does form emotional attachments, much to its dismay and sometimes annoyance.
posted by humbug at 10:56 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Then again, Wells' whole universe is less heavily gendered than our own, so maybe the alias isn't actually femme-coded, and "Mom" is not intended to imply a gender. I do wonder what this interpretation reveals about my own internal biases.
Keep in mind the character who calls them ‘Mom’ has as far as I recall, two Moms, whom she refers to as first and second Mom. No reference to explicitly male coparents.
posted by bq at 11:04 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Keep in mind the character who calls them ‘Mom’ has as far as I recall, two Moms, whom she refers to as first and second Mom. No reference to explicitly male coparents.
posted by bq at 11:04 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think we're agreeing here, bq.
I am really curious to see the adaptation choices that get made here, in any case. Murderbot is so much about Murderbot's interior life that I wonder how it's going to translate to the screen. The Expanse had a similar problem at various points, which it solved more or less successfully depending on the exact situation and the season.
posted by Alterscape at 11:14 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am really curious to see the adaptation choices that get made here, in any case. Murderbot is so much about Murderbot's interior life that I wonder how it's going to translate to the screen. The Expanse had a similar problem at various points, which it solved more or less successfully depending on the exact situation and the season.
posted by Alterscape at 11:14 AM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Speaking of The Expanse, I think Frankie Adams (actress who played Bobbie) would have been a bomb Murderbot: solid physicality, good at dry sarcastic effect.
posted by foxfirefey at 11:28 AM on December 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by foxfirefey at 11:28 AM on December 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
I love how this thread is teasing apart not only gender assumptions but also emotional attachment vs romance (and romance vs sexual attraction to a lesser degree).
posted by rabbitrabbit at 11:31 AM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by rabbitrabbit at 11:31 AM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm a cis het male boomer and I always figured Murderbot as more of a Gwen Christie than Alexander Skarsgård. Nonetheless I am intrigued because Skarsgård is a damn good actor and I suspect he will have a great interpretation of the role. He was just so damn convincing as the tech bro that savagely took down the fail children in Succession. And as a vampire in a show whose decline was so steep and severe it made Heroes look like the fucking Sopranos.
posted by Ber at 11:31 AM on December 15, 2023
posted by Ber at 11:31 AM on December 15, 2023
Frankie Adams (actress who played Bobbie) would have been a bomb Murderbot: solid physicality, good at dry sarcastic effect.
Agreed
I’m cautiously optimistic. But that’s my attitude towards most media these days.
posted by bq at 11:48 AM on December 15, 2023
Agreed
I’m cautiously optimistic. But that’s my attitude towards most media these days.
posted by bq at 11:48 AM on December 15, 2023
This thread demonstrates just how well Martha Wells has create a very flexible world and character with a ton of reads to it!
Me, I don't think I've ever explicitly thought about gender with MurderBot (other than maybe leaning male because of listening to Kevin Free's narration). My primary impression of MB has always been a lithe speed. MB should be terrifyingly fast - enough to make you wet your pants.
MB's primary emotional read to me has always been "exasperation", like someone taking care of a bunch of eager puppies bound and determined to fall off a cliff. "All I want to do is watch Sanctuary Moon, but my humans keep trying to get themselves killed"
(Did anyone else notice that MB didn't really refer to itself as MB during this last story? It stood out to me and I wasn't sure if that was me being full of half memories of the previous stories or not)
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:49 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Me, I don't think I've ever explicitly thought about gender with MurderBot (other than maybe leaning male because of listening to Kevin Free's narration). My primary impression of MB has always been a lithe speed. MB should be terrifyingly fast - enough to make you wet your pants.
MB's primary emotional read to me has always been "exasperation", like someone taking care of a bunch of eager puppies bound and determined to fall off a cliff. "All I want to do is watch Sanctuary Moon, but my humans keep trying to get themselves killed"
(Did anyone else notice that MB didn't really refer to itself as MB during this last story? It stood out to me and I wasn't sure if that was me being full of half memories of the previous stories or not)
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:49 AM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
I picture it as one of those people who are bulky and strong without being obviously ripped. Sort of smooth and rounded, like a seal
Me too, also because SecUnits have a lot of *stuff* packed into them. Probably as short as practical because the Corporation skimps on everything it can and the Corp has to pay for its cubicles.
This is also my class-not-gender reading again, but an actor who is definitely not slender might help the hypothetical average watcher "get" both the powerless economic position and ace. (alas for my assumptions about average assumptions!)
I added up the references to Murderbot’s lifespan before the narrative starts, and came out with maybe early middle age. Minus magic healthcare, plus being more literally rode hard and put away wet than a plain human could survive. And a badly done, purely practical education, as Murderbot repeatedly regrets. Not the upper class / college class young adult character that snarks through Buffy/Gideon properties.
posted by clew at 12:36 PM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Me too, also because SecUnits have a lot of *stuff* packed into them. Probably as short as practical because the Corporation skimps on everything it can and the Corp has to pay for its cubicles.
This is also my class-not-gender reading again, but an actor who is definitely not slender might help the hypothetical average watcher "get" both the powerless economic position and ace. (alas for my assumptions about average assumptions!)
I added up the references to Murderbot’s lifespan before the narrative starts, and came out with maybe early middle age. Minus magic healthcare, plus being more literally rode hard and put away wet than a plain human could survive. And a badly done, purely practical education, as Murderbot repeatedly regrets. Not the upper class / college class young adult character that snarks through Buffy/Gideon properties.
posted by clew at 12:36 PM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Look, any SecUnit that appreciates the true functionality of good pockets is coded female, sorry!
posted by MonkeyToes at 12:42 PM on December 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 12:42 PM on December 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
I pictured Murderbot as female-presenting. It seemed completely obvious to me and I never questioned it until the startling moment when my husband referred to Murderbot as "he." (He also had never questioned his mental image until that moment.) It's interesting to see how many people pictured something different. It's also interesting that some people saw a hint of possible romantic attachment between Murderbot and Mensah. I never saw it that way at all. Mensah seemed like more of a mentor/protector/sort-of-boss/not-quite-parent figure to me. (The relationship with ART, on the other hand, definitely seems romantic, or something close to it.)
posted by Redstart at 12:52 PM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Redstart at 12:52 PM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
@bq: The character who called MC "Mom" was Amena, and Mensah is her "second Mom". In other parts of the narrative, we learn that Mensah is in a three-person marriage and that Thiago is the brother of her husband. (This comes up in the beginning of Network Effect, and affects MB's reactions to him throughout that installment.)
posted by Quasirandom at 12:59 PM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Quasirandom at 12:59 PM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
I never saw Murderbot as intimidating in their at rest state. Sure with forearms blazing or totting a heavy weapon but not at rest.
I dunno, Murderbot stops one of Tlacey's* hired goons advancing on its clients by putting a hand out at the human's chest height and looking bored. That doesn't necessarily mean Murderbot is physically big but it does sound like it is solid enough to make a large human male bodyguard pause.
*Artificial Condition
posted by antiwiggle at 1:02 PM on December 15, 2023
I dunno, Murderbot stops one of Tlacey's* hired goons advancing on its clients by putting a hand out at the human's chest height and looking bored. That doesn't necessarily mean Murderbot is physically big but it does sound like it is solid enough to make a large human male bodyguard pause.
*Artificial Condition
posted by antiwiggle at 1:02 PM on December 15, 2023
I always pictured the SecUits & MurderBot as having the absolute bare minimum of facial features necessary - like the manufacturer acknowledges that the SecUnits might need to communicate via facial expressions but they don't actually care much if ordinary humans find them weird or off-putting. (As kyrademon notes, SecUnits spend most of their time under a helmet anyway. Why bother putting a lot of detail into something that will rarely if ever be seen?)
Murderbot describes its face as ‘standard, generic human’ in the first book and later describes itself as a ‘generic type augmented human person’ when it is on the run in disguise.
I think the face isn’t designed as part of its human biological components. I feel like the company is too cheap to do any gene engineering (as murderbot frequently complains.) I think at some point they describe the source of the bio components as randomized combinations of DNA.
posted by theclaw at 1:20 PM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Murderbot describes its face as ‘standard, generic human’ in the first book and later describes itself as a ‘generic type augmented human person’ when it is on the run in disguise.
I think the face isn’t designed as part of its human biological components. I feel like the company is too cheap to do any gene engineering (as murderbot frequently complains.) I think at some point they describe the source of the bio components as randomized combinations of DNA.
posted by theclaw at 1:20 PM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
And when Amena refers to Murderbot as "third Mom", I can totally see how that would be, even if MB was coded male. Because MB cares about the humans they are under contract to, and Mensah, who essentially gave MB their freedom. And ART. Because MB is good. Have to go watch my feeds, will comment more later
posted by Windopaene at 1:21 PM on December 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Windopaene at 1:21 PM on December 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Good episode...
Also, just bought a MB shirt, from the link above.
Didn't know about MW having a cancer issue. FUCK CANCER! We need more Murderbot!
posted by Windopaene at 1:23 PM on December 15, 2023
Also, just bought a MB shirt, from the link above.
Didn't know about MW having a cancer issue. FUCK CANCER! We need more Murderbot!
posted by Windopaene at 1:23 PM on December 15, 2023
"Mom" is not intended to imply a gender...
Mensa is our 'reasonable' parent figure, and Amena, being typical teen, is feeling put upon by Murderbot's adult expectations, although realizing the concern behind his words. I read "OK, third mom." as a slightly sarcastic comment, but still acknowledging the caring relationship between them. I think it's intended to be a humorous comment. In our world, if it was addressed to a male it would be teasing, because men aren't moms, they're dads. In the MB world, it's still teasing because not only are bots not moms, they aren't even parents. MB is acting in a position of correction and care, and that sets him up for her mildly teasing comment.
posted by BlueHorse at 1:30 PM on December 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mensa is our 'reasonable' parent figure, and Amena, being typical teen, is feeling put upon by Murderbot's adult expectations, although realizing the concern behind his words. I read "OK, third mom." as a slightly sarcastic comment, but still acknowledging the caring relationship between them. I think it's intended to be a humorous comment. In our world, if it was addressed to a male it would be teasing, because men aren't moms, they're dads. In the MB world, it's still teasing because not only are bots not moms, they aren't even parents. MB is acting in a position of correction and care, and that sets him up for her mildly teasing comment.
posted by BlueHorse at 1:30 PM on December 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Interesting that I haven’t seen anyone mention the role that I associate most strongly with Alexander Skarsgård: Sgt Brad “Iceman” Colbert in Generation Kill. Outwardly calm, unflappable, hypercompetent (climbing out of his Humvee to direct traffic in the middle of a pitched firefight), but inwardly very quietly freaked out by the utter insanity of everyone around him, the lethal stupidity of the orders coming down from above, and the terrible chaos they’re bringing to the Iraqis they’re supposedly there to help. I can see the makings of a very good Murderbot there.
posted by McCoy Pauley at 1:40 PM on December 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by McCoy Pauley at 1:40 PM on December 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
The character who called MC "Mom" was Amena, and Mensah is her "second Mom". In other parts of the narrative, we learn that Mensah is in a three-person marriage and that Thiago is the brother of her husband. (This comes up in the beginning of Network Effect, and affects MB's reactions to him throughout that installment.)
Gender of Mensah’s third spouse is unspecified; Thiago is Mensah’s brother-in-law bc Thiago is married to Mensah’s sibling.
posted by bq at 1:58 PM on December 15, 2023
Gender of Mensah’s third spouse is unspecified; Thiago is Mensah’s brother-in-law bc Thiago is married to Mensah’s sibling.
posted by bq at 1:58 PM on December 15, 2023
Tano (third spouse in the marriage other than Mensah and Farai who both use female pronouns) would have to be non-female for Murderbot to be Third Mom, really.
And MW has also turned off replies on her Dreamwidth post about the adaptation, so she's clearly staying out of it. Wise of her, and I hope her financial arrangements with AppleTV and all involved made a hard year easier for her. She's a class act.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 2:10 PM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
And MW has also turned off replies on her Dreamwidth post about the adaptation, so she's clearly staying out of it. Wise of her, and I hope her financial arrangements with AppleTV and all involved made a hard year easier for her. She's a class act.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 2:10 PM on December 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
MB is obviously ace, and specifically says they are/it's aro. Not even interested in the smoopy! I believe them!
We automatically want to lay our gender and sex roles over MB's construct because in this society we can't fathom an emotional being having a relationship not based on sexual attraction. In my MB books, there are absolutely no romantic feelings between MB and Mensa, or more laughably, ART!
We absolutely can't seem to get away from Eros--every adult relationship has to be about sex. Of course men and women can't be friends without flirting! Naturally if two women or two men are holding hands they've got to be gay! We've totally forgotten or discount the value and strength of Philos and Agape.
MB has an evolving love for Mensa, going from storge (his loving ( and saving) her like a parent) to Philos--a more equitable relationship between them as she saves him and encourages him to develop Philautia.
MB and ART's friendship is evolving towards equality and an equability of care. ART has the immense processing power, but MB has more emotional understanding of humans and the ability to move around and work in the physical world.
ART’s official designation was deep space research vessel. At various points in our relationship, ART had threatened to kill me, watched my favorite shows with me, given me a body configuration change, provided excellent tactical support, talked me into pretending to be an augmented human security consultant, saved my clients’ lives, and had cleaned up after me when I had to murder some humans. (They were bad humans.) I really missed ART. (Rogue Protocol Chapter 1)
A friend helps you move the couch. A good friend helps you move a body.
MB uses the term relationship when he refers to ART, but is appalled when Amana uses it, because he knows humans are 'programed' to see most interactions between equals as leaning toward being sexual.
posted by BlueHorse at 2:37 PM on December 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
We automatically want to lay our gender and sex roles over MB's construct because in this society we can't fathom an emotional being having a relationship not based on sexual attraction. In my MB books, there are absolutely no romantic feelings between MB and Mensa, or more laughably, ART!
We absolutely can't seem to get away from Eros--every adult relationship has to be about sex. Of course men and women can't be friends without flirting! Naturally if two women or two men are holding hands they've got to be gay! We've totally forgotten or discount the value and strength of Philos and Agape.
MB has an evolving love for Mensa, going from storge (his loving ( and saving) her like a parent) to Philos--a more equitable relationship between them as she saves him and encourages him to develop Philautia.
MB and ART's friendship is evolving towards equality and an equability of care. ART has the immense processing power, but MB has more emotional understanding of humans and the ability to move around and work in the physical world.
ART’s official designation was deep space research vessel. At various points in our relationship, ART had threatened to kill me, watched my favorite shows with me, given me a body configuration change, provided excellent tactical support, talked me into pretending to be an augmented human security consultant, saved my clients’ lives, and had cleaned up after me when I had to murder some humans. (They were bad humans.) I really missed ART. (Rogue Protocol Chapter 1)
A friend helps you move the couch. A good friend helps you move a body.
MB uses the term relationship when he refers to ART, but is appalled when Amana uses it, because he knows humans are 'programed' to see most interactions between equals as leaning toward being sexual.
posted by BlueHorse at 2:37 PM on December 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
Naturally if two women or two men are holding hands they've got to be gay!
Yes, that's generally how it spreads.
posted by mittens at 2:46 PM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes, that's generally how it spreads.
posted by mittens at 2:46 PM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
BlueHorse, MB's pronouns are it/its/it's.
posted by cooker girl at 2:47 PM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 2:47 PM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
I would've cast Skarsgård as Dr. Gurathin.
Other dream castings - Viola Davis as Dr. Mensah, Dev Patel as Ratthi.
posted by Emily's Fist at 4:48 PM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Other dream castings - Viola Davis as Dr. Mensah, Dev Patel as Ratthi.
posted by Emily's Fist at 4:48 PM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
BlueHorse, MB's pronouns are it/its/it's.
*head desk*
Cooker girl, I know that. Right there, in the first line, I wrote "it's aro."
...and sure enough, I screwed it up by using 'he' after that throughout the whole damn post! Not the first time I've had to be corrected, and probably, embarrassingly, it won't be the last. Thank you for calling me on it, since MB isn't here. Habits die so hard.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:02 PM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
*head desk*
Cooker girl, I know that. Right there, in the first line, I wrote "it's aro."
...and sure enough, I screwed it up by using 'he' after that throughout the whole damn post! Not the first time I've had to be corrected, and probably, embarrassingly, it won't be the last. Thank you for calling me on it, since MB isn't here. Habits die so hard.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:02 PM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
MW has also turned off replies on her Dreamwidth post about the adaptation, so she's clearly staying out of it. Wise of her,
Those of us Of A Certain Age saw what happened to Anne Rice….I don’t remember any creator fucking up as egregiously in that particular way since.
posted by bq at 6:19 PM on December 15, 2023
Those of us Of A Certain Age saw what happened to Anne Rice….I don’t remember any creator fucking up as egregiously in that particular way since.
posted by bq at 6:19 PM on December 15, 2023
For me, the main questions are will whoever plays Murderbot be able to convey non-human physically, and how will the interiority of the books be handled. I think Schwarzenegger's acting is sometime underrated in how well he controlled his body to move non-humanly in the Terminator movies. I do think androgyny is written into the text. I figure part of that was to make the SecUnits - not blend in, but be acceptable to all customers.
I think it'll be an interesting challenge to convey all the multiple feeds and interior experience. Without that, I'm not sure how well the story will hold up unless it switches viewpoints in some weird way.
It is clear -- and I was in a Q&A with Wells on Zoom a while back that confirmed this -- that there will be no pantsfeelings for Murderbot ever, which is one of the things I love in the series, to type it again, not human and I hope that's preserved. I'm also glad Wells is getting $$.
I don't think Murderbot's attachments are romantic. I would say in a way Murderbot waffles between (Greek terms) agape ("I prefer humans in my sphere not get murdered") to philia to (maybe) storge with Perihelion.
One thing I really enjoy about the Murderbot books is that they start with the disabling of the governor module which permits philautia (self-regard) and what flows from that capacity to choose is bonding to others and protecting them. I feel like the earlier books waffle on whether that's just kind of latent programming/vocation but the later books really make it a greater choice. I think that's what makes it feel human (and sometimes adolescent, not in the pre-romantic sense but in the searching for self-definition and self-obsessed sense.) Not sure this casting choice will support that but hey, I'm game to see what the execution is.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:22 PM on December 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think it'll be an interesting challenge to convey all the multiple feeds and interior experience. Without that, I'm not sure how well the story will hold up unless it switches viewpoints in some weird way.
It is clear -- and I was in a Q&A with Wells on Zoom a while back that confirmed this -- that there will be no pantsfeelings for Murderbot ever, which is one of the things I love in the series, to type it again, not human and I hope that's preserved. I'm also glad Wells is getting $$.
I don't think Murderbot's attachments are romantic. I would say in a way Murderbot waffles between (Greek terms) agape ("I prefer humans in my sphere not get murdered") to philia to (maybe) storge with Perihelion.
One thing I really enjoy about the Murderbot books is that they start with the disabling of the governor module which permits philautia (self-regard) and what flows from that capacity to choose is bonding to others and protecting them. I feel like the earlier books waffle on whether that's just kind of latent programming/vocation but the later books really make it a greater choice. I think that's what makes it feel human (and sometimes adolescent, not in the pre-romantic sense but in the searching for self-definition and self-obsessed sense.) Not sure this casting choice will support that but hey, I'm game to see what the execution is.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:22 PM on December 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don't think Murderbot's attachments are romantic. I would say in a way Murderbot waffles between (Greek terms) agape ("I prefer humans in my sphere not get murdered") to philia to (maybe) storge with Perihelion.
I would call their relationship queerplatonic - a profound intimate relationship that is not romantic in nature.
I've always seen MB as ace/aro, to me this seems strongly supported by the text. It's interesting to read a few comments struggle to reconcile aromanticism with a character who clearly loves many people in its life, even though most people are familiar with the deep platonic love of friendship and family.
posted by Emily's Fist at 6:27 PM on December 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
I would call their relationship queerplatonic - a profound intimate relationship that is not romantic in nature.
I've always seen MB as ace/aro, to me this seems strongly supported by the text. It's interesting to read a few comments struggle to reconcile aromanticism with a character who clearly loves many people in its life, even though most people are familiar with the deep platonic love of friendship and family.
posted by Emily's Fist at 6:27 PM on December 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
Must we try to assign male or female coding to Murderbot? It seems like the discussion here is veering uncomfortably close to "but what is it really?" at times by looking for clues to how the characters around Muderbot seem to perceive its gender. It really has none.
posted by Pryde at 6:41 PM on December 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Pryde at 6:41 PM on December 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
yes you can think about Murderbot as appliance-presenting.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:05 PM on December 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:05 PM on December 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
From Mefi's own Dan Hon: "Look if you're worried about the Murderbot tv adaptation, given how much of the work depends on the interior pov of Murderbot, hear me out: the series ships with a Murderbot commentary track."
posted by Pronoiac at 7:31 PM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Pronoiac at 7:31 PM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mmmmmm I won't be watching. Why mess with a good thing? The books already exist, there is nothing to be gained by doing it worse in a medium that will flatten out what's good about it. I cannot make myself care about another corporate media digestion of a story and the flat glossy poops they leave behind.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 8:11 PM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by wellifyouinsist at 8:11 PM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
yes you can think about Murderbot as appliance-presenting
Oh no, this is going to spawn the new "identify as an attack helicopter", isn't it...
posted by Molesome at 1:58 AM on December 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh no, this is going to spawn the new "identify as an attack helicopter", isn't it...
posted by Molesome at 1:58 AM on December 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Murderbot is so obviously an indentured human(s) who got Robocopped into a SecUnit and is basically a ship of Theseus now with bits and pieces replaced as they go along.
AS was very very good in Generation Kill as someone extremely dangerous and shown a wide range since, so it'll be interesting to see how he chooses to play Murderbot. A lot also depends on Dr Mensah - I can think of several very good British Asian actors who'd be very good.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:37 AM on December 16, 2023
AS was very very good in Generation Kill as someone extremely dangerous and shown a wide range since, so it'll be interesting to see how he chooses to play Murderbot. A lot also depends on Dr Mensah - I can think of several very good British Asian actors who'd be very good.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:37 AM on December 16, 2023
Murderbot is so obviously an indentured human(s) who got Robocopped into a SecUnit
Good lord, I hope not. A story that ends up being about it recovering its lost humanity is just bleah barf yuck compared to a story about it finding its own way to be a free construct and learning for itself what that means.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:53 AM on December 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
Good lord, I hope not. A story that ends up being about it recovering its lost humanity is just bleah barf yuck compared to a story about it finding its own way to be a free construct and learning for itself what that means.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:53 AM on December 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
oh absolutely agree - MurderBot is not the person(s) they were but they are the logical capitalist outcome of indentured slavery when the slaves die. They're not part bot/part human but a human-bot construct. as an entire kind of their own.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:18 AM on December 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:18 AM on December 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Why British Asian? Mensah is a Ghanaian surname. Considering the first names Ayda and Amena, I always thought Dr Mensah was mostly Black with Ghanaian Muslim roots. (There's a Polish-Ghanaian celebrity called Omenaa Mensah, for example, so my mental image of Amena is close to her daughter.) Martha Wells is on record that she based the description on Viola Davis.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 7:15 AM on December 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by I claim sanctuary at 7:15 AM on December 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
Murderbot is so obviously an indentured human(s) who got Robocopped into a SecUnit and is basically a ship of Theseus now with bits and pieces replaced as they go along.
SecUnits are assembled from cloned tissue that is created in batches in laboratories. MB mentions at one point seeing a SecUnit with facial features he doesn’t recognize that must have come from a batch of DNA he hadn’t encountered before.
posted by bq at 7:50 AM on December 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
SecUnits are assembled from cloned tissue that is created in batches in laboratories. MB mentions at one point seeing a SecUnit with facial features he doesn’t recognize that must have come from a batch of DNA he hadn’t encountered before.
posted by bq at 7:50 AM on December 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Murderbot is so obviously an indentured human(s)
No? MB in the books clearly states that it and the other SecUnits are lab-grown. In Fugitive Telemetry, MB states that it is "a construct made of cloned human tissue, augments, anxiety, depression, and unfocused rage, a killing machine for whichever humans rented me."
posted by cooker girl at 7:51 AM on December 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
No? MB in the books clearly states that it and the other SecUnits are lab-grown. In Fugitive Telemetry, MB states that it is "a construct made of cloned human tissue, augments, anxiety, depression, and unfocused rage, a killing machine for whichever humans rented me."
posted by cooker girl at 7:51 AM on December 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
facial features he doesn’t recognize that must have come from a batch of DNA he hadn’t encountered before.
facial features IT doesn't recognize that must have come from a batch of DNA IT hadn't encountered before.
posted by cooker girl at 7:53 AM on December 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
facial features IT doesn't recognize that must have come from a batch of DNA IT hadn't encountered before.
posted by cooker girl at 7:53 AM on December 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Darn it
posted by bq at 7:58 AM on December 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bq at 7:58 AM on December 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Martha Wells has explicitly stated in interviews that she wanted to have a story where the AI does not want to become human.
She has also said a lot about how she examines capitalism & labour. I’m kind of hoping the series stays in that space.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:25 AM on December 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
She has also said a lot about how she examines capitalism & labour. I’m kind of hoping the series stays in that space.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:25 AM on December 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
I love a good story where capitalism is the antagonist. Murderbot, Scholomance….are there any other recent series I should check out? I know this is a theme in many classic sf works.
posted by bq at 8:57 AM on December 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by bq at 8:57 AM on December 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hellburner, or any of Cherryh’s other Belter novels; or much of the universe they’re set in, though perspectives change.
posted by clew at 10:15 AM on December 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by clew at 10:15 AM on December 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I really related to the way that murderbot goes back to it's favourite media in times of stress to calm down. I do the same with Discworld audiobooks and Jane Austen novels. So what are everyone else's sanctuary moons?
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 12:30 PM on December 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 12:30 PM on December 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
So what are everyone else's sanctuary moons?
Julia Child and Jacques Pépin. By the way, this might make for a good AskMe, or one of the now occasional not-quite-Metatalktail threads on MetaTalk.
posted by mollweide at 4:15 AM on December 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Julia Child and Jacques Pépin. By the way, this might make for a good AskMe, or one of the now occasional not-quite-Metatalktail threads on MetaTalk.
posted by mollweide at 4:15 AM on December 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
dorothyisunderwood: Murderbot is so obviously an indentured human(s) who got Robocopped into a SecUnit
Not for me, and even if the cloned human tissue is human-enough ... you still come up against Coprorate Rim indenture contracts on human workers and their colony settlements, it makes no difference.
The vat-grown part might be enough of a person for you to say they're human, for me I think MurderBot is a person with agency who definitely is glad it is not a squishy human.
posted by k3ninho at 9:25 AM on December 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Not for me, and even if the cloned human tissue is human-enough ... you still come up against Coprorate Rim indenture contracts on human workers and their colony settlements, it makes no difference.
The vat-grown part might be enough of a person for you to say they're human, for me I think MurderBot is a person with agency who definitely is glad it is not a squishy human.
posted by k3ninho at 9:25 AM on December 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Few comments say they love the IP and are excited to give Alexander Skarsgård the opportunity, because I guess they loved Tarzan. Sure. If we're entertained, all is forgiven. And I would tend to agree.
So while I'm sure they can make a good show, I'm just bummed the powers that be would pass up the opportunity to make an edgy character a la Alita: Battle Angel.with a teen twist, rather than another character to rival Paramount's Master Seargent from Halo.
I guess I'm just coming off a high from watching the Barbie movie, and want to see more great stories with the ladies. And yet, I discovered MB after reading the hard boiled, gritty and raunchy Altered Carbon series by Richard K Morgan. Between books, I picked up All Systems Red, and was thrilled by the clever characterization, humor and lack of overt sexuality--just good clean sci-fi; a breath of fresh air.
So I don't think of it as a question of the show runners making a good show that I will enjoy, but I also think of them making a show unlike every other show, because that's how I feel about MB.
posted by xtian at 4:22 PM on December 17, 2023
So while I'm sure they can make a good show, I'm just bummed the powers that be would pass up the opportunity to make an edgy character a la Alita: Battle Angel.with a teen twist, rather than another character to rival Paramount's Master Seargent from Halo.
I guess I'm just coming off a high from watching the Barbie movie, and want to see more great stories with the ladies. And yet, I discovered MB after reading the hard boiled, gritty and raunchy Altered Carbon series by Richard K Morgan. Between books, I picked up All Systems Red, and was thrilled by the clever characterization, humor and lack of overt sexuality--just good clean sci-fi; a breath of fresh air.
So I don't think of it as a question of the show runners making a good show that I will enjoy, but I also think of them making a show unlike every other show, because that's how I feel about MB.
posted by xtian at 4:22 PM on December 17, 2023
I am a stone cold sucker for fictitious novels, movies and shows featured in real novels, movies and shows. Some of the ones that look and sound amazing include Invitation to Love from Twin Peaks, Night Journey from The Hellfire Club, and the Alexis Machine novels from The Dark Half.
Rise and Fall of Sanctuary Moon is definitely in the “amazing” list, and sounds a lot like an SF telenovela except for the “hundreds of episodes and seasons” part.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:57 PM on December 17, 2023
Rise and Fall of Sanctuary Moon is definitely in the “amazing” list, and sounds a lot like an SF telenovela except for the “hundreds of episodes and seasons” part.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:57 PM on December 17, 2023
Wow there are a LOT of Sanctuary Moon tees for sale in Google search results—way more than there were Kissing Cranes (from The Peripheral) tees.
posted by infinitewindow at 11:03 PM on December 17, 2023
posted by infinitewindow at 11:03 PM on December 17, 2023
I think my ideal casting would be:
Murderbot: Richard Ayoade
ART: Matt Berry
Miki: Katherine Parkinson
SecUnit 3: Chris O'Dowd
posted by Phssthpok at 10:24 AM on December 18, 2023
Murderbot: Richard Ayoade
ART: Matt Berry
Miki: Katherine Parkinson
SecUnit 3: Chris O'Dowd
posted by Phssthpok at 10:24 AM on December 18, 2023
I don't have strong feelings on a lot of proposed casting, but certainly ART must be David Hewlett?
posted by suelac at 12:14 PM on December 18, 2023
posted by suelac at 12:14 PM on December 18, 2023
I realize voice actors can play a range of ages and Hewlett is a good actor, but ART is ... so very young. And tries really hard to act mature to compensate. They act in much like a second-year university student given primary responsibility for a summer camp for secondary students, one they used to attend and feel Very Proprietary about.
posted by Quasirandom at 2:57 PM on December 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Quasirandom at 2:57 PM on December 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'll admit to also not really knowing how I feel about Skarsgaard's casting, and that he's not at all how I pictured Murderbot, but the amount of "he's so sexy he can't play someone ace" I've seen in this and other discussions around it is really weirding me out. Finding someone sexy in no way precludes them being asexual since their sexuality is not defined by how other people feel about them.
posted by augustimagination at 12:25 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]
posted by augustimagination at 12:25 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]
« Older We're Listening | Rope crossings saving possums at roadkill hotspot... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by supermedusa at 5:17 PM on December 14, 2023 [30 favorites]