"Ted Cruz without the personality"
December 25, 2023 6:04 AM Subscribe
What Went Wrong for Ron DeSantis in 2023 (NYT gift, 12/24 (and Politico analysis))
How DeSantis's Ground Game Has Sputtered (NYT gift, 12/23)
Inside the Collapse of DeSantis's PAC Funding (WaPo gift, 12/16)
How DeSantis's Ground Game Has Sputtered (NYT gift, 12/23)
Inside the Collapse of DeSantis's PAC Funding (WaPo gift, 12/16)
All I can hope is that it plays out in a particularly humiliating way for him. He's a bad person who deserves only the worst outcomes.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:28 AM on December 25, 2023 [63 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 6:28 AM on December 25, 2023 [63 favorites]
Eat shit, Ron.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:45 AM on December 25, 2023 [31 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 6:45 AM on December 25, 2023 [31 favorites]
He's basically a really weird guy. Everything he touches turns to shit, and he embraces it. The cult was never going to embrace him the way it idolized Trump. And his only angle was to out-Trump Trump, in his bizarro robotic way he does. The cult of personality just will not work for that stiffness.
posted by 2N2222 at 6:53 AM on December 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by 2N2222 at 6:53 AM on December 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
“He lacks charisma,” says the guy who asked him whether he supports the First Amendment rights of those who hate trans people. In other words, DeSantis is shitty, but isn't shitty enough for the Republican party.
posted by tommasz at 7:19 AM on December 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 7:19 AM on December 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
Never change, NYT. “What went wrong” implies that the paper thinks he should have been right at some point. The media’s endorsement of fascism in the name of both sides and/or selling subscriptions is going to be our downfall.
posted by Melismata at 7:27 AM on December 25, 2023 [62 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 7:27 AM on December 25, 2023 [62 favorites]
Actually, Ted Cruz without the personality sounds like an improvement on Ted Cruz.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:35 AM on December 25, 2023 [69 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:35 AM on December 25, 2023 [69 favorites]
The cult was never going to embrace him the way it idolized Trump. And his only angle was to out-Trump Trump, in his bizarro robotic way he does. The cult of personality just will not work for that stiffness.
Yup. He and his backers (financial and media) were hoping that the MAGAts were really in it for the culture wars, not the Trump worship. Clearly the answer is "No." (Or at least, "Not yet. Why go for Imitation Trump when the real thing is still around.")
posted by soundguy99 at 8:01 AM on December 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
Yup. He and his backers (financial and media) were hoping that the MAGAts were really in it for the culture wars, not the Trump worship. Clearly the answer is "No." (Or at least, "Not yet. Why go for Imitation Trump when the real thing is still around.")
posted by soundguy99 at 8:01 AM on December 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
As long as the primary electorate gives Trump huge leads while Trump campaigns as if he is unopposed in the primary, there's really no way to judge if any of DeSantis or any other of those opponents' campaigns have been well or poorly run, any more than you can really judge the output of a wide receiver whose quarterback is sacked on every play.
The only really interesting question is who is nominated if the RNC adopts rules to prohibit a convicted felon from being or remaining the nominee, given that Trump is likely to be a convicted felon by sometime this summer. I'd say that DeSantis still has a healthy chance to be the nominee under those circumstances.
posted by MattD at 8:10 AM on December 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
The only really interesting question is who is nominated if the RNC adopts rules to prohibit a convicted felon from being or remaining the nominee, given that Trump is likely to be a convicted felon by sometime this summer. I'd say that DeSantis still has a healthy chance to be the nominee under those circumstances.
posted by MattD at 8:10 AM on December 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
Exactly, what went wrong for DeSantis is that he isn't Trump and no one can claim the cult leader's mantle while the he's still alive.
After Trump drops dead from a heart attack or whatever there can and will be a mad scramble to assume the position as his heir and inheritor of the MAGA crowd, but as long as Trump is alive he's the center of their worship and that's not changing.
I continue to be amazed and baffled at how so many right wing people can latch onto the first person who says they're a bold strongman who can overthrow democracy and be the big political daddy they want even when the person in question is so obviously pathetic.
Not to go straight for the Hitler, but JFC look at Hitler! The dude was anti-charismatic. He moved like a badly programmed robot, he had two modes of speech: mumbling and screaming, he wasn't a good public speaker, and he didn't even match the "Aryan" mythos he was promoting.
I think partially it's that most people have the tiny shred of self awareness that keeps them from really leaning in and possibly believing their own rhetoric about being the big daddy who will make everything right again so people on the right seldom have much choice. And apparently the right is so desperate for a big daddy they'll take anyone who claims to fill the role regardless of how self evidently BS that claim is.
Same goes for Trump. Dude was never smart, and he's clearly suffering from some form of age related mental degradation, he's a pathetic loser in the business world, he can't give a speech to save his life, his style of speaking is basically mumbling, he's one of the least imposing people you'll ever find. But he's the one willing to stand up and sacrifice all his dignity and claim to realism by declaring himself to be the greatest strongman big daddy of all time, and he's nakedly racist, so they join in a cult of personality based on a guy with no personality.
And that's another reason why DeSantis isn't going to take over from Trump: he's aware that he's not actually the big daddy and he's only pretending. People can see that, even right wingers. It takes someone genuinely delusional enough to really believe it when they say they're the big daddy fix everything super genius to get the MAGA/Nazi crowd engaged.
posted by sotonohito at 8:16 AM on December 25, 2023 [34 favorites]
After Trump drops dead from a heart attack or whatever there can and will be a mad scramble to assume the position as his heir and inheritor of the MAGA crowd, but as long as Trump is alive he's the center of their worship and that's not changing.
I continue to be amazed and baffled at how so many right wing people can latch onto the first person who says they're a bold strongman who can overthrow democracy and be the big political daddy they want even when the person in question is so obviously pathetic.
Not to go straight for the Hitler, but JFC look at Hitler! The dude was anti-charismatic. He moved like a badly programmed robot, he had two modes of speech: mumbling and screaming, he wasn't a good public speaker, and he didn't even match the "Aryan" mythos he was promoting.
I think partially it's that most people have the tiny shred of self awareness that keeps them from really leaning in and possibly believing their own rhetoric about being the big daddy who will make everything right again so people on the right seldom have much choice. And apparently the right is so desperate for a big daddy they'll take anyone who claims to fill the role regardless of how self evidently BS that claim is.
Same goes for Trump. Dude was never smart, and he's clearly suffering from some form of age related mental degradation, he's a pathetic loser in the business world, he can't give a speech to save his life, his style of speaking is basically mumbling, he's one of the least imposing people you'll ever find. But he's the one willing to stand up and sacrifice all his dignity and claim to realism by declaring himself to be the greatest strongman big daddy of all time, and he's nakedly racist, so they join in a cult of personality based on a guy with no personality.
And that's another reason why DeSantis isn't going to take over from Trump: he's aware that he's not actually the big daddy and he's only pretending. People can see that, even right wingers. It takes someone genuinely delusional enough to really believe it when they say they're the big daddy fix everything super genius to get the MAGA/Nazi crowd engaged.
posted by sotonohito at 8:16 AM on December 25, 2023 [34 favorites]
As with everything about modern GOP politics, the post-mortem we need is not “did DeSantis wear the wrong color suit” or whatever, it’s “this guy is a dead eyed fascist and THAT somehow was NOT a disqualifier, what went wrong with Republican voters”
And the NYT as usual is not interested in that question because it means taking a position.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 8:18 AM on December 25, 2023 [51 favorites]
And the NYT as usual is not interested in that question because it means taking a position.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 8:18 AM on December 25, 2023 [51 favorites]
DeSantis is a white guy who is smarter than Trump, so it causes annoyance. The rest of the field are only running for vice president, except gadfly Christie, so they just need to a set of checkmarks, such as being a woman or an evangelical.
posted by Brian B. at 8:20 AM on December 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 8:20 AM on December 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
Actually, Ted Cruz without the personality sounds like an improvement on Ted Cruz.
Thank you for your response to TedCruz, a human person. We hear your statement that you made and comprehend its meaning grammar syntax.
Please, would you respond to our own query?
Would you prefer that TedCruz, a human person, emulate a different personality or several simultaneously? They have a tremendous capacity for personality, being a human person!
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:41 AM on December 25, 2023 [29 favorites]
Thank you for your response to TedCruz, a human person. We hear your statement that you made and comprehend its meaning grammar syntax.
Please, would you respond to our own query?
Would you prefer that TedCruz, a human person, emulate a different personality or several simultaneously? They have a tremendous capacity for personality, being a human person!
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:41 AM on December 25, 2023 [29 favorites]
mostly hoping the overreach fucks him over in Florida somehow.
posted by Artw at 8:48 AM on December 25, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:48 AM on December 25, 2023 [23 favorites]
Not to go straight for the Hitler, but JFC look at Hitler! The dude was anti-charismatic.
I have seen both Hitler and Trump described as charismatic and I... I don't understand what charisma is, I guess? Hitler looked terminally angry and Trump always has that weird pouty-smirk on his face. Charisma may be one of those things (like flirting) that my autistic brain doesn't understand, but I just don't get how either of those two men could be anything but repellent.
posted by LindsayIrene at 9:01 AM on December 25, 2023 [33 favorites]
I have seen both Hitler and Trump described as charismatic and I... I don't understand what charisma is, I guess? Hitler looked terminally angry and Trump always has that weird pouty-smirk on his face. Charisma may be one of those things (like flirting) that my autistic brain doesn't understand, but I just don't get how either of those two men could be anything but repellent.
posted by LindsayIrene at 9:01 AM on December 25, 2023 [33 favorites]
They can be repellent because the admirer deeply wishes s/he could act as repellently but has neither the courage nor integrity to do so. When Trump acts repellently, he’s completely in line with his true character. They wish they could be as free.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 9:06 AM on December 25, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by armoir from antproof case at 9:06 AM on December 25, 2023 [20 favorites]
“What went wrong” implies that the paper thinks he should have been right at some point.
Not really. He had advantages, like winning a high profile election in a year his party was losing many elections, and having an extra $80 million before starting his campaign. He was the leading candidate out of people who were not Trump. His campaign has collapsed despite these advantages. Nowhere does the article imply he is a great and talented leader who deserves to win.
posted by snofoam at 9:08 AM on December 25, 2023 [37 favorites]
Not really. He had advantages, like winning a high profile election in a year his party was losing many elections, and having an extra $80 million before starting his campaign. He was the leading candidate out of people who were not Trump. His campaign has collapsed despite these advantages. Nowhere does the article imply he is a great and talented leader who deserves to win.
posted by snofoam at 9:08 AM on December 25, 2023 [37 favorites]
No kidding, MattD. And yet the media still insists on holding debates, because 1) they have no imagination and 2) they clearly can’t see their own role in making everything so, so much worse.
“I used to think in Republican primaries you kind of could just do Fox News and talk radio and all that,” Mr. DeSantis told the Iowa conservative news host Steve Deace in October. “And, one, I don’t think that’s enough but, two, there’s just the fact that our conservative media sphere, you know, it’s not necessarily promoting conservatism. They’ve got agendas, too.”
What planet are they on?
posted by Melismata at 9:16 AM on December 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
“I used to think in Republican primaries you kind of could just do Fox News and talk radio and all that,” Mr. DeSantis told the Iowa conservative news host Steve Deace in October. “And, one, I don’t think that’s enough but, two, there’s just the fact that our conservative media sphere, you know, it’s not necessarily promoting conservatism. They’ve got agendas, too.”
What planet are they on?
posted by Melismata at 9:16 AM on December 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have seen both Hitler and Trump described as charismatic and I... I don't understand what charisma is, I guess? Hitler looked terminally angry and Trump always has that weird pouty-smirk on his face.
Yeah, I think there's a very specific sort of person that works on. Like, there's a sort of personality, an easily-liked bonhomie, which I can get interpreting as charisma and which most people recognize as charisma even if it strikes them as gladhanding or false or whatever. The intensely aggrieved attitude I'd associate with Hitler and Trump: clearly there are people who eat that up with a spoon, but I really, really don't get it and it's not clear how it's charismatic.
As regards the FPP, yeah, "Trump but less so" was never gonna be a winning play, and DeSantis has basically ruined any sort of belief that he'd serve as any sort of responsible steward of government by trying to play that role. Nikki Haley, to the extent she's succeeding (which is limited, and probably not going to go anywhere with a presidential campaign, but won't ruin the rest of her career) is by carving out a specific non-Trump niche, as a standard-bearer for those Republicans who specifically don't like Trump and Trumpiness.
posted by jackbishop at 9:23 AM on December 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I think there's a very specific sort of person that works on. Like, there's a sort of personality, an easily-liked bonhomie, which I can get interpreting as charisma and which most people recognize as charisma even if it strikes them as gladhanding or false or whatever. The intensely aggrieved attitude I'd associate with Hitler and Trump: clearly there are people who eat that up with a spoon, but I really, really don't get it and it's not clear how it's charismatic.
As regards the FPP, yeah, "Trump but less so" was never gonna be a winning play, and DeSantis has basically ruined any sort of belief that he'd serve as any sort of responsible steward of government by trying to play that role. Nikki Haley, to the extent she's succeeding (which is limited, and probably not going to go anywhere with a presidential campaign, but won't ruin the rest of her career) is by carving out a specific non-Trump niche, as a standard-bearer for those Republicans who specifically don't like Trump and Trumpiness.
posted by jackbishop at 9:23 AM on December 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'll tell you how desantis is like Trump: both of them are people for whom I wouldn't cross the street to piss on were they on fire.
posted by nushustu at 9:57 AM on December 25, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by nushustu at 9:57 AM on December 25, 2023 [15 favorites]
"Trump but less so" was never gonna be a winning play
it could have been if something had transpired that removed trump-classic from the race. they all knew that attacking trump was only going to alienate the rabid base, so they were all positioning themselves for the post-trump primary which was the only scenario that anyone else would be the nominee. desantis's reflexive lizard-brained mashing of the anti-woke button might have looked like political genius if, say, trump had a massive coronary and had to reluctantly bow out of the race.
as it is, i think ol' puddin' fingers has more-or-less worn out his welcome, even in florida, with the constant bullshit. he can't run for governor again after his term is over, and neither rick scott's nor li'l marco rubio's seats are up in 2026, so desantis is looking at 2028 as the earliest election year in which he can either take a lateral step into the senate or try to go up as governor again. so 4-5 years in political purgatory, during which, to the extent that anyone remembers him, will probably associate him with utensil-free snack desserting, his strange mincing gait, and the bobble-headed attempts at conveying human emotion. 2024 was desantis's only opportunity to remain in politics in a meaningful way; thank god he blew it.
posted by logicpunk at 10:07 AM on December 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
it could have been if something had transpired that removed trump-classic from the race. they all knew that attacking trump was only going to alienate the rabid base, so they were all positioning themselves for the post-trump primary which was the only scenario that anyone else would be the nominee. desantis's reflexive lizard-brained mashing of the anti-woke button might have looked like political genius if, say, trump had a massive coronary and had to reluctantly bow out of the race.
as it is, i think ol' puddin' fingers has more-or-less worn out his welcome, even in florida, with the constant bullshit. he can't run for governor again after his term is over, and neither rick scott's nor li'l marco rubio's seats are up in 2026, so desantis is looking at 2028 as the earliest election year in which he can either take a lateral step into the senate or try to go up as governor again. so 4-5 years in political purgatory, during which, to the extent that anyone remembers him, will probably associate him with utensil-free snack desserting, his strange mincing gait, and the bobble-headed attempts at conveying human emotion. 2024 was desantis's only opportunity to remain in politics in a meaningful way; thank god he blew it.
posted by logicpunk at 10:07 AM on December 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
I have seen both Hitler and Trump described as charismatic and I... I don't understand what charisma is, I guess?
Charisma is the ability to influence people, which can involve likability but not every likeable person is charismatic (think women who everyone likes because they are selfless, but who people don’t respect and just walk all over), and some people’s charisma is based more on fear and bullying rather than likability.
posted by eviemath at 10:15 AM on December 25, 2023 [16 favorites]
Charisma is the ability to influence people, which can involve likability but not every likeable person is charismatic (think women who everyone likes because they are selfless, but who people don’t respect and just walk all over), and some people’s charisma is based more on fear and bullying rather than likability.
posted by eviemath at 10:15 AM on December 25, 2023 [16 favorites]
The single biggest discriminator between Trump and the rest of the GOP pack is that no one other than Donald has had decades upon decades of relentless self-promotion goosed by nearly 15 years of competence-porn propaganda on a major television network.
I hope that cultural inertia just might be the only thing keeping the fascist beast in contention right now. The sooner Donald disappears from the airwaves (through imprisonment, disability, or death), the sooner we get to find out whether he was the lynchpin keeping the whole machine from disintegrating or just the hottest windbag propelling it forward, and it'll survive his loss. The former is my hope, but even if it's the latter, we'll be better off when he's permanently off the stage.
posted by tclark at 10:20 AM on December 25, 2023 [18 favorites]
I hope that cultural inertia just might be the only thing keeping the fascist beast in contention right now. The sooner Donald disappears from the airwaves (through imprisonment, disability, or death), the sooner we get to find out whether he was the lynchpin keeping the whole machine from disintegrating or just the hottest windbag propelling it forward, and it'll survive his loss. The former is my hope, but even if it's the latter, we'll be better off when he's permanently off the stage.
posted by tclark at 10:20 AM on December 25, 2023 [18 favorites]
I don't understand what charisma is, I guess?
Charisma presents a chicken and egg problem due to its populist nature. It is possible humans have a primitive gene that causes people to get behind an angry personality as a group in order to survive an attack. This would be simple to hijack given a combination of fear of change amongst voters and fury from a candidate.
posted by Brian B. at 10:51 AM on December 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Charisma presents a chicken and egg problem due to its populist nature. It is possible humans have a primitive gene that causes people to get behind an angry personality as a group in order to survive an attack. This would be simple to hijack given a combination of fear of change amongst voters and fury from a candidate.
posted by Brian B. at 10:51 AM on December 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
IMO it's a bit of a waste of time to analyse "what went wrong" in the DeSantis campaign. He never had what it takes. You can call it charisma, or just humanity, he is clearly not there, and even the most well-managed campaign could not have changed that. If he had made it to the top, any Democrat would have eradicated him.
I have seen both Hitler and Trump described as charismatic and I... I don't understand what charisma is, I guess? Hitler looked terminally angry and Trump always has that weird pouty-smirk on his face.
I have wondered about this since I was a child, watching the old newsreels with Hitler screaming hate at his followers. In a way Trump has helped me understand, though I've never seen an episode of The Apprentice, which would probably be useful. Most of Hitler's and Trump's followers are ignorant, resentful and racist.
They are ignorant about all the things that make society work and why they make it work. Infrastructure, taxes, regulatory systems, schools -- well government -- all these things are like a mysterious black box to these people, even if they work within them. I don't blame them, many people don't get all that, because it is hard to understand. I have hard left friends who don't get it.
They are resentful, because they are ignorant and feel left behind. Stuff is happening all the time that they don't get, and sometimes it hits them. They get a fine for speeding, or have to pay a higher tax or their kids fail at school. Or they are frustrated that gas is so expensive and they worry about the changes that are coming with global heating, but can't see a way out. Or they can't graze their cattle on public land or underpay their employees.
And they are racist. I put this last, but it is first. All their feelings get channeled into one: racial resentment. It was obvious in 2016, but now it is a huge banner over every single aspect of Trumpism.
Hitler back then and Trump today have the "talent" for expressing all of this in a manner that fits their audience. Both are grotesque, and that is part of the charisma. They mirror their audiences. They are hustlers, uneducated, liars, stinky, sweaty, loud, rambling and non-sensical. And entertaining. They don't appeal to anyone outside the group, and that is part of the point. Hitler only had 30-something percent of the vote in 1933, and that is about the proportion of the Trump base in the USA today, just above the crazification factor. The problem is, and was in 1933, the enablers and those who actually build the fascist state. Trump can't create a fascist state in the US just with Ivanka and Jared. He needs an army of smart and dedicated fascists who can and will construct a regime of terror, and who can direct the violent passion of the trumpists towards their "enemies", as we are seeing it today.
posted by mumimor at 11:23 AM on December 25, 2023 [34 favorites]
I have seen both Hitler and Trump described as charismatic and I... I don't understand what charisma is, I guess? Hitler looked terminally angry and Trump always has that weird pouty-smirk on his face.
I have wondered about this since I was a child, watching the old newsreels with Hitler screaming hate at his followers. In a way Trump has helped me understand, though I've never seen an episode of The Apprentice, which would probably be useful. Most of Hitler's and Trump's followers are ignorant, resentful and racist.
They are ignorant about all the things that make society work and why they make it work. Infrastructure, taxes, regulatory systems, schools -- well government -- all these things are like a mysterious black box to these people, even if they work within them. I don't blame them, many people don't get all that, because it is hard to understand. I have hard left friends who don't get it.
They are resentful, because they are ignorant and feel left behind. Stuff is happening all the time that they don't get, and sometimes it hits them. They get a fine for speeding, or have to pay a higher tax or their kids fail at school. Or they are frustrated that gas is so expensive and they worry about the changes that are coming with global heating, but can't see a way out. Or they can't graze their cattle on public land or underpay their employees.
And they are racist. I put this last, but it is first. All their feelings get channeled into one: racial resentment. It was obvious in 2016, but now it is a huge banner over every single aspect of Trumpism.
Hitler back then and Trump today have the "talent" for expressing all of this in a manner that fits their audience. Both are grotesque, and that is part of the charisma. They mirror their audiences. They are hustlers, uneducated, liars, stinky, sweaty, loud, rambling and non-sensical. And entertaining. They don't appeal to anyone outside the group, and that is part of the point. Hitler only had 30-something percent of the vote in 1933, and that is about the proportion of the Trump base in the USA today, just above the crazification factor. The problem is, and was in 1933, the enablers and those who actually build the fascist state. Trump can't create a fascist state in the US just with Ivanka and Jared. He needs an army of smart and dedicated fascists who can and will construct a regime of terror, and who can direct the violent passion of the trumpists towards their "enemies", as we are seeing it today.
posted by mumimor at 11:23 AM on December 25, 2023 [34 favorites]
I forgot something: the Republicans who hate Trump but go along with Trumpism because they want power are exactly like the German conservatives in 1933. I can't say they are worse than the actual fascists, but they belong in the lowest circles of hell.
posted by mumimor at 11:27 AM on December 25, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 11:27 AM on December 25, 2023 [24 favorites]
He and his backers (financial and media) were hoping that the MAGAts were really in it for the culture wars, not the Trump worship.
I wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn the wave of anti-trans hate and push for school and library censorship in the right wing media a few months ago was stirred up to promote the culture wars as a channel for other Republicans to outshine Trump.
posted by smelendez at 11:29 AM on December 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
I wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn the wave of anti-trans hate and push for school and library censorship in the right wing media a few months ago was stirred up to promote the culture wars as a channel for other Republicans to outshine Trump.
posted by smelendez at 11:29 AM on December 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
Ho Ho Ho
There weeks to the Iowa caucuses, 10 week to Super Tuesday.
posted by Reverend John at 11:31 AM on December 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
There weeks to the Iowa caucuses, 10 week to Super Tuesday.
posted by Reverend John at 11:31 AM on December 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Ted Cruz without the personality" goes from black hole to naked singularity in suckitude. We are entering Phillip K Dickian dimensions here
posted by y2karl at 11:43 AM on December 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 11:43 AM on December 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I remember reading about DeSantis and he sounded like a real threat and someone to worry about, like the competent Trump down the road we all fear. And then I saw a video of the guy speaking and knew immediately he was destined for nowhere.
posted by St. Oops at 11:45 AM on December 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by St. Oops at 11:45 AM on December 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'm aware that Trump has charisma -- he has swagger, he's funny, he can command a room -- but I'm also aware that I am not his target audience, and so his act is repulsive to me. But here's how you know Ron DeSantis is uncharismatic: he's Trump without the jokes, a version of Trump that is arguably even more politically repugnant, and yet when he talks? I mostly just zone out. I hate Trump as a human being, but I am completely indifferent to Ron DeSantis; I voted against Trump with great gusto, even though I gave not one shit about Joe Biden, but I would have voted against Ron DeSantis with all the same fervor that I might absently slap a mosquito that lit on my forearm. DeSantis lacks the zazz that inspires voters one way or the other. Charismatic people are "love them or hate them..." and DeSantis and Biden are more "tolerate them or not."
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:50 AM on December 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:50 AM on December 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
“What went wrong” implies that the paper thinks he should have been right at some point
this is a silly intentional misreading. The man had a goal, whether morally right or wrong (obviously the latter) and it’s interesting to look at why he failed so badly to attain it.
The paper’s idiotic bothsidesism is another matter altogether not relevant to why this is an interesting (despite not being comprehensive) read.
posted by supercres at 11:59 AM on December 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
this is a silly intentional misreading. The man had a goal, whether morally right or wrong (obviously the latter) and it’s interesting to look at why he failed so badly to attain it.
The paper’s idiotic bothsidesism is another matter altogether not relevant to why this is an interesting (despite not being comprehensive) read.
posted by supercres at 11:59 AM on December 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
I wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn the wave of anti-trans hate and push for school and library censorship in the right wing media a few months ago was stirred up to promote the culture wars as a channel for other Republicans to outshine Trump.
If that were true (I don't mean to weigh in one way or the other), I wonder who's stirring it up.
The culture-war stuff is like candy for extremely online conservatives and Republican primary voters, but it doesn't work so well in a general election.
Even as Nikki Haley says that transgender girls playing high school sports is the women's issue of our time, reproductive rights have already proven to be a major force in 2020s elections.
Book bans are not broadly popular. Many of the books challenged (by a small number of people) are eventually returned to school libraries, and Moms for Liberty has a bit of an image problem these days.
Culture-war stuff is seldom a winning issue. Kid Rock is back to drinking Bud Light. Ron DeSantis had his 2009 wedding at DisneyWorld. As it turns out, more people like shopping at Target than like getting Woke Alerts.
posted by box at 12:13 PM on December 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
If that were true (I don't mean to weigh in one way or the other), I wonder who's stirring it up.
The culture-war stuff is like candy for extremely online conservatives and Republican primary voters, but it doesn't work so well in a general election.
Even as Nikki Haley says that transgender girls playing high school sports is the women's issue of our time, reproductive rights have already proven to be a major force in 2020s elections.
Book bans are not broadly popular. Many of the books challenged (by a small number of people) are eventually returned to school libraries, and Moms for Liberty has a bit of an image problem these days.
Culture-war stuff is seldom a winning issue. Kid Rock is back to drinking Bud Light. Ron DeSantis had his 2009 wedding at DisneyWorld. As it turns out, more people like shopping at Target than like getting Woke Alerts.
posted by box at 12:13 PM on December 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
There is no "culture wars". Hate is not a culture.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:33 PM on December 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:33 PM on December 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
I'll tell you how desantis is like Trump: both of them are people for whom I wouldn't cross the street to piss on were they on fire.
What about if they weren't on fire?
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:38 PM on December 25, 2023 [20 favorites]
What about if they weren't on fire?
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:38 PM on December 25, 2023 [20 favorites]
Then they have to pay for golden rain, like everybody else
posted by The River Ivel at 12:43 PM on December 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 12:43 PM on December 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
Hitler was able to lead a fascist takeover because he had VW, IBM, and Bayer on-side.
Trump has MyPillow.
OK, probably he has other corporate quislings backing him. I don't have the names off the top of my head, but I can make some easy guesses:
Chik-Fil-A
Hobby Lobby
Sinclair Broadcasting
... and so on.
Of the companies that supported Hitler and abettted the Nazis in treason, torture and murder, as far as I know they all are still in business and doing fine, having suffered no consequences. Probably all of us here have done business with IBM, VW or Bayer, or IG Farben, or Mercedes-Benz, or...
None of us can realistically do anything directly to or about Trump or DeSantis. Are there things we can do about their corporate sponsors?
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 12:46 PM on December 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Trump has MyPillow.
OK, probably he has other corporate quislings backing him. I don't have the names off the top of my head, but I can make some easy guesses:
Chik-Fil-A
Hobby Lobby
Sinclair Broadcasting
... and so on.
Of the companies that supported Hitler and abettted the Nazis in treason, torture and murder, as far as I know they all are still in business and doing fine, having suffered no consequences. Probably all of us here have done business with IBM, VW or Bayer, or IG Farben, or Mercedes-Benz, or...
None of us can realistically do anything directly to or about Trump or DeSantis. Are there things we can do about their corporate sponsors?
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 12:46 PM on December 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm aware that Trump has charisma -- he has swagger, he's funny, he can command a room -- but I'm also aware that I am not his target audience
Yeah I am certainly not his target audience in any sense, either, but it’s hard to imagine that anyone claiming not to understand how people find Trump charismatic has made any genuine attempt to understand. Even many liberals clearly do get something out of seeing him turn on his insult comic mode against the Ron DeSantises and Ted Cruzes of the world.
posted by atoxyl at 12:51 PM on December 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yeah I am certainly not his target audience in any sense, either, but it’s hard to imagine that anyone claiming not to understand how people find Trump charismatic has made any genuine attempt to understand. Even many liberals clearly do get something out of seeing him turn on his insult comic mode against the Ron DeSantises and Ted Cruzes of the world.
posted by atoxyl at 12:51 PM on December 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I just like that DeSantis' lifts have drawn attention to the fact that they put wedges under Trump's feet to keep him from leaning forward like a unbalanced weeble. The weird footsie games of Republicans are fascinating.
posted by srboisvert at 1:22 PM on December 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 1:22 PM on December 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
Hitler was able to lead a fascist takeover because he had VW, IBM, and Bayer on-side.
They weren't on Hitler's side before he took over the government, and Trump hasn't done that yet. He will in 2025 if he can. The main culprits were the "normal" politicians who refused to work across the aisle against totalitarianism. Just like today. Had McConnell voted by his consciousness and opinion in 2021, we would not be here today.
Apart from the my pillow guy, Trump has the Tesla guy, and several other billionaires. Most of them just know to keep reasonably quiet about it. (I mean, Musk isn't that quiet, is he?)
posted by mumimor at 1:27 PM on December 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
They weren't on Hitler's side before he took over the government, and Trump hasn't done that yet. He will in 2025 if he can. The main culprits were the "normal" politicians who refused to work across the aisle against totalitarianism. Just like today. Had McConnell voted by his consciousness and opinion in 2021, we would not be here today.
Apart from the my pillow guy, Trump has the Tesla guy, and several other billionaires. Most of them just know to keep reasonably quiet about it. (I mean, Musk isn't that quiet, is he?)
posted by mumimor at 1:27 PM on December 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
> All I can hope is that it plays out in a particularly humiliating way for him. He's a bad person who deserves only the worst outcomes.The only way it'd be better is if while HerrSantis is self-destructing, he takes down everyone else in his orbit including at least one billionaire would-be-kingmaker.
But I fear for the good anti-authoritarians and innocent minorities here in Florida. I suspect Meatball Ron's wounded narcissistic ego is going to vent his wrath on everyone and everything he considers Woke here during the remainder of his gubernatorial term. He'll gleefully burn it all down just from spite.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 1:32 PM on December 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
Say what you want about Al Franken, but he said it well: "I probably like Ted Cruz more than my colleagues [in Congress] like Ted Cruz. And I hate Ted Cruz."
posted by nushustu at 1:44 PM on December 25, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by nushustu at 1:44 PM on December 25, 2023 [18 favorites]
...possible humans have a primitive gene that causes people to get behind an angry personality as a group in order to survive an attack.
Even without a gene, people's brains work just fine figuring out anger, fear, power and safety.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 2:04 PM on December 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Even without a gene, people's brains work just fine figuring out anger, fear, power and safety.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 2:04 PM on December 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
So I found a video on YouTube that mashed the Apprentice into ten minutes, and now I do know more. Jesus Christ.
Because of the professional production, Trump seems (even) more charismatic in the series. A reminder of Leni Riefenstahl. Obviously, anyone from New York would be laughing their asses off, but there are hardly any Trump voters in New York.
However, no magical production skills could make DeSantis seem human; remember that video where he was teaching his children to "build the wall"? He is just so weird, not even a trumpist can feel him.
posted by mumimor at 2:11 PM on December 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Because of the professional production, Trump seems (even) more charismatic in the series. A reminder of Leni Riefenstahl. Obviously, anyone from New York would be laughing their asses off, but there are hardly any Trump voters in New York.
However, no magical production skills could make DeSantis seem human; remember that video where he was teaching his children to "build the wall"? He is just so weird, not even a trumpist can feel him.
posted by mumimor at 2:11 PM on December 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
What went wrong for Ron DeSantis was that he is Ron DeSantis, for which there is no cure.
posted by Pouteria at 3:09 PM on December 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Pouteria at 3:09 PM on December 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
Never forget that the test of a public speaker is their audience’s response. If you think audiences didn’t love Hitler and Trump then you haven’t been watching the same video footage I have.
posted by bq at 3:15 PM on December 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by bq at 3:15 PM on December 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
What went wrong for Ron DeSantis was that he is Ron DeSantis, for which there is no cure
well, one, but seppuku is more of an Edo period tradition
posted by logicpunk at 3:18 PM on December 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
well, one, but seppuku is more of an Edo period tradition
posted by logicpunk at 3:18 PM on December 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
I've heard Nikki Haley wears heels.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:53 PM on December 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:53 PM on December 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Wearing heels is fine, for anyone. Hiding that you are wearing heels is cheesy. I hope they get lifetime back problems from their vanity.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:28 PM on December 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 4:28 PM on December 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
Two other things that have taken the wind out of Ron DeSantis's campaign sails:
* He badly underestimated how quickly Americans put Covid behind them, and that includes dwelling on the right and wrong of mask mandates. His stance during the pandemic isn't carrying any support on the cusp of 2024.
* Everyone remembers that one kid in school whose parents wouldn't let them do anything. DeSantis's version of "Parents' Rights" put those freaks in charge of your child's education.
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 5:35 PM on December 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
* He badly underestimated how quickly Americans put Covid behind them, and that includes dwelling on the right and wrong of mask mandates. His stance during the pandemic isn't carrying any support on the cusp of 2024.
* Everyone remembers that one kid in school whose parents wouldn't let them do anything. DeSantis's version of "Parents' Rights" put those freaks in charge of your child's education.
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 5:35 PM on December 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
I do wish we had an article on "why were FL Democrats disorganized enough to let this schlub win the big seat? How easy would the permanent democratic supermajority be if they just organized and spent money in Florida again?"
But we know why they don't do that story
posted by eustatic at 5:53 PM on December 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
But we know why they don't do that story
posted by eustatic at 5:53 PM on December 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
I always thought DeSantis was overhyped because of his big win in Florida. It's Florida. A Republican winning there doesn't tell you anything about how he'd do as a national candidate in the general election.
Trump Lite might win you the Republican nomination, but I don't believe it would win the presidency.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:34 PM on December 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Trump Lite might win you the Republican nomination, but I don't believe it would win the presidency.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:34 PM on December 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hi from Florida, where at least state-level media have written about eustatic's question.
DeSantis won here the first time because Trump endorsed him over the establishment Republican Adam Putnam.
DeSantis won the second time because he still basked in the Trump afterglow, and because the Democratic establishment picked Charlie Crist, the former Republican governor turned Democrat who everyone knew was a spineless phony.
The Florida Democratic Party is a train wreck, and I'm not sure if new chair Nikki Fried (who lost the primary to Crist) is the answer. But there are some terrific young Democrats coming out of the Orlando area, like U.S. Reps. Anna Eskamani and Maxwell Frost. But neither is positioned to win a statewide office yet. And from what I can see (admittedly, anecdata), the people coming in are older, wealthy and Republican. So it's going to be a while before anything is going to change.
posted by martin q blank at 7:56 PM on December 25, 2023 [20 favorites]
DeSantis won here the first time because Trump endorsed him over the establishment Republican Adam Putnam.
DeSantis won the second time because he still basked in the Trump afterglow, and because the Democratic establishment picked Charlie Crist, the former Republican governor turned Democrat who everyone knew was a spineless phony.
The Florida Democratic Party is a train wreck, and I'm not sure if new chair Nikki Fried (who lost the primary to Crist) is the answer. But there are some terrific young Democrats coming out of the Orlando area, like U.S. Reps. Anna Eskamani and Maxwell Frost. But neither is positioned to win a statewide office yet. And from what I can see (admittedly, anecdata), the people coming in are older, wealthy and Republican. So it's going to be a while before anything is going to change.
posted by martin q blank at 7:56 PM on December 25, 2023 [20 favorites]
he won Florida by like 30,000 votes. there had to be a re count. is that a big win?
posted by eustatic at 7:57 PM on December 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by eustatic at 7:57 PM on December 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
“What went wrong” implies that the paper thinks he should have been right at some point.
It's actually a question with a really easy answer. You see, when MAGAts hear about the things he does, they love it and, indeed, flock to Florida precisely because of those actions.
Problem is that when they see him, most find him as repulsive as the rest of us. Some of their reasons are the same, but others have more to do with an idea of masculinity he and his relationship with his wife are directly in opposition with. He looks to them like an effete try hard being led by the nose by his wife. Unlike Hitler, he has no Goebbels to flood the airwaves with propaganda to dispel that image.
In reality, though, the vast majority of the stuff that happens in Florida that gives the MAGAts a semi has nothing at all to do with Ron. He's just letting the legislature, Moms for Liberty, and a cornucopia of other Nazi and Nazi-adjacent assholes do their thing, occasionally croaking out the kinds of mouth noises that make MAGAts happy. He basks in the reflected "glory" thanks to the fundamental misunderstanding that everything that happens is the responsibility of the executive branch, which sadly cuts right across the entirety of US society.
posted by wierdo at 2:08 AM on December 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's actually a question with a really easy answer. You see, when MAGAts hear about the things he does, they love it and, indeed, flock to Florida precisely because of those actions.
Problem is that when they see him, most find him as repulsive as the rest of us. Some of their reasons are the same, but others have more to do with an idea of masculinity he and his relationship with his wife are directly in opposition with. He looks to them like an effete try hard being led by the nose by his wife. Unlike Hitler, he has no Goebbels to flood the airwaves with propaganda to dispel that image.
In reality, though, the vast majority of the stuff that happens in Florida that gives the MAGAts a semi has nothing at all to do with Ron. He's just letting the legislature, Moms for Liberty, and a cornucopia of other Nazi and Nazi-adjacent assholes do their thing, occasionally croaking out the kinds of mouth noises that make MAGAts happy. He basks in the reflected "glory" thanks to the fundamental misunderstanding that everything that happens is the responsibility of the executive branch, which sadly cuts right across the entirety of US society.
posted by wierdo at 2:08 AM on December 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
mostly hoping the overreach fucks him over in Florida somehow
He's term limited, he can't be Governor again. I somehow doubt any of this will keep him from finding a Congressional district willing to elect him once he's out There's just too many districts here packed with loons willing to vote for anybody who claims to be a Republican. Matt Gaetz is all the evidence needed to prove that statement.
posted by wierdo at 2:15 AM on December 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
He's term limited, he can't be Governor again. I somehow doubt any of this will keep him from finding a Congressional district willing to elect him once he's out There's just too many districts here packed with loons willing to vote for anybody who claims to be a Republican. Matt Gaetz is all the evidence needed to prove that statement.
posted by wierdo at 2:15 AM on December 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Speaking of which, there are rumors that Gaetz is eyeing a run for FL Governor, at least partially because he's now widely disliked in the US House as the ringleader of the recent Speaker debacle.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:08 AM on December 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by soundguy99 at 4:08 AM on December 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
About Charisma, some of what people are seeing is that two of the pillars of fascism are intense feeling and action. Both Trump and Hitler are/were good at encouraging their audiences to feel things and to link arguably good sentiments (patriotism, pride in community) with much darker sentiments (racism, antisemitism, etc) to create a warm glow of belonging. The second, action, is all about doing stuff, especially exciting, violent stuff, rather than thinking and talking. Worried about cultural changes? Defund/take over universities! Concerned about immigration? Build a Wall! Put people in cages! Just Do Something Simple, Obvious, and Effective (and the more racist and penalizing the better). Again, it’s about feeling; Doing Stuff feels good, and, if it doesn’t work, you can do it harder.
So charisma for a fascist is a bit different from other flavors of charisma.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:50 AM on December 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
So charisma for a fascist is a bit different from other flavors of charisma.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:50 AM on December 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
Never change, NYT. “What went wrong” implies that the paper thinks he should have been right at some point.
The NYT takes a both-sides position on Fascists like DeSantis not because they think he's right, or wrong, but because Fascist Republicanism concentrates and protects a major source of ad revenue — projected to clear $10 billion for the 2024 general election.
Politico hints at this, but the NYTimes and other media outlets are souring on DeSantis because the ad money from his campaign is drying up. Elections are as much a race to gin up money for corporate media, as they are about votes.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:57 AM on December 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
The NYT takes a both-sides position on Fascists like DeSantis not because they think he's right, or wrong, but because Fascist Republicanism concentrates and protects a major source of ad revenue — projected to clear $10 billion for the 2024 general election.
Politico hints at this, but the NYTimes and other media outlets are souring on DeSantis because the ad money from his campaign is drying up. Elections are as much a race to gin up money for corporate media, as they are about votes.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:57 AM on December 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
I always thought DeSantis was overhyped because of his big win in Florida. It's Florida.
Especially in 2022. I have a friend who teaches college in Miami, and she noticed a real uptick in MAGA types in her classrooms and her neighborhood starting with Florida's relatively quick re-opening during the pandemic. I'm not sure if anyone knows just how substantial this migration was, but as of October "Republicans now have 588,930 more registered voters than Democrats" - whereas roughly a decade ago, Democrats were ahead by about the same number. It was in 2021 that Republicans first came out head in terms of registered voters.
posted by coffeecat at 7:08 AM on December 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Especially in 2022. I have a friend who teaches college in Miami, and she noticed a real uptick in MAGA types in her classrooms and her neighborhood starting with Florida's relatively quick re-opening during the pandemic. I'm not sure if anyone knows just how substantial this migration was, but as of October "Republicans now have 588,930 more registered voters than Democrats" - whereas roughly a decade ago, Democrats were ahead by about the same number. It was in 2021 that Republicans first came out head in terms of registered voters.
posted by coffeecat at 7:08 AM on December 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
In reality, though, the vast majority of the stuff that happens in Florida that gives the MAGAts a semi has nothing at all to do with Ron.
i don't disagree that the florida republicans are awful enough on their own, but back when it looked like desantis might coulda been the republican nominee, the legislature was happy enough to get in line with his general war against all things woke. like: the maps for congressional districts are the ones that desantis proposed over the legislature's own maps, the legislature funded his migrant transport program (y'know the one that illegally sent 50 people from texas to massachussetts 'cause why not), and when desantis decided to pick a dumbass fight with disney, the legislature happily revoked disney's special district control.
i doubt this stuff would have happened without desantis trying to burnish his credentials and the legislature doing what it could to support his stupid dream of being president
posted by logicpunk at 7:21 AM on December 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
i don't disagree that the florida republicans are awful enough on their own, but back when it looked like desantis might coulda been the republican nominee, the legislature was happy enough to get in line with his general war against all things woke. like: the maps for congressional districts are the ones that desantis proposed over the legislature's own maps, the legislature funded his migrant transport program (y'know the one that illegally sent 50 people from texas to massachussetts 'cause why not), and when desantis decided to pick a dumbass fight with disney, the legislature happily revoked disney's special district control.
i doubt this stuff would have happened without desantis trying to burnish his credentials and the legislature doing what it could to support his stupid dream of being president
posted by logicpunk at 7:21 AM on December 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
so re: charisma, a while back i read someone saying (possibly in a comment here?) that when you watch clips of mussolini speaking, you can understand exactly what he's saying and exactly what he means by it without knowing a single word of italian.
for people looking to understand why fascists like trump are appealing to so many people, it's useful to try your best to pretend you don't know english — listen to the sounds coming out of his mouth as sounds rather than as words, and watch how the sounds are coupled to the gestures.
it is very hard to turn off your language centers to the extent required, but if you manage it you can see what his followers see in him. it's something like the aural equivalent of defocusing your eyes enough to see the secret 3d images in those posters from the 1980s.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:25 AM on December 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
for people looking to understand why fascists like trump are appealing to so many people, it's useful to try your best to pretend you don't know english — listen to the sounds coming out of his mouth as sounds rather than as words, and watch how the sounds are coupled to the gestures.
it is very hard to turn off your language centers to the extent required, but if you manage it you can see what his followers see in him. it's something like the aural equivalent of defocusing your eyes enough to see the secret 3d images in those posters from the 1980s.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:25 AM on December 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
either, but it’s hard to imagine that anyone claiming not to understand how people find Trump charismatic has made any genuine attempt to understand. Even many liberals clearly do get something out of seeing him turn on his insult comic mode against the Ron DeSantises and Ted Cruzes of the world.
Well, I've always hated insult comics and roasts and don't like much stand-up comedy because it's mean so
posted by LindsayIrene at 9:07 AM on December 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well, I've always hated insult comics and roasts and don't like much stand-up comedy because it's mean so
posted by LindsayIrene at 9:07 AM on December 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well over a year ago, possibly two, the Lincoln-Project-adjacent podcasters were scoffing at the idea of Ron DeSantis winning the GOP nomination. This was before Trump declared and DeSantis’s poll numbers were very high. Their reasoning was simple: he’s weird. He’d melt like a snowman in the sun when exposed to relentless national media. It’s interesting to watch the political pundit class actually be right.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 10:06 AM on December 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by TWinbrook8 at 10:06 AM on December 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
I always thought DeSantis was overhyped because of his big win in Florida. It's Florida.
Especially in 2022. I have a friend who teaches college in Miami, and she noticed a real uptick in MAGA types in her classrooms and her neighborhood starting with Florida's relatively quick re-opening during the pandemic. I'm not sure if anyone knows just how substantial this migration was, but as of October "Republicans now have 588,930 more registered voters than Democrats" - whereas roughly a decade ago, Democrats were ahead by about the same number. It was in 2021 that Republicans first came out head in terms of registered voters.
It went fast! We moved to Florida in 2012 because of my husband's job and at the time we thought we were making a good move getting out of North Carolina which was at the time going off its own political deep end. The ascendance of Trump and Trumpism surprised us greatly. DeSantis's first election was very, very close and a lot of Democrats thought we were going to win it. Then came the pandemic, and the mass influx of MAGA-hats and assorted wackos, and his second election was a landslide. With DeSantis term-limited out of the next governor's race, nobody really knows who the next Republican candidate is going to be, the state-level Republican and Democratic organizations are both total shit-shows, but the Republicans have cemented their numerical advantage pretty well. Literally a thousand people a day move to Florida, and people who are coming now know what they're getting into, and they're mostly coming because of the hate that DeSantis loves to whip up, not despite it.
posted by Daily Alice at 10:08 AM on December 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
Especially in 2022. I have a friend who teaches college in Miami, and she noticed a real uptick in MAGA types in her classrooms and her neighborhood starting with Florida's relatively quick re-opening during the pandemic. I'm not sure if anyone knows just how substantial this migration was, but as of October "Republicans now have 588,930 more registered voters than Democrats" - whereas roughly a decade ago, Democrats were ahead by about the same number. It was in 2021 that Republicans first came out head in terms of registered voters.
It went fast! We moved to Florida in 2012 because of my husband's job and at the time we thought we were making a good move getting out of North Carolina which was at the time going off its own political deep end. The ascendance of Trump and Trumpism surprised us greatly. DeSantis's first election was very, very close and a lot of Democrats thought we were going to win it. Then came the pandemic, and the mass influx of MAGA-hats and assorted wackos, and his second election was a landslide. With DeSantis term-limited out of the next governor's race, nobody really knows who the next Republican candidate is going to be, the state-level Republican and Democratic organizations are both total shit-shows, but the Republicans have cemented their numerical advantage pretty well. Literally a thousand people a day move to Florida, and people who are coming now know what they're getting into, and they're mostly coming because of the hate that DeSantis loves to whip up, not despite it.
posted by Daily Alice at 10:08 AM on December 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
the legislature was happy enough to get in line with his general war against all things woke
Aside from the Congressional map, all the so called anti woke bullshit, to my recollection, came about because Randy Fine whispered in Ron's ear. With the Disney thing, Ol' Ronnie was doing his usual schtick of raging impotently and making vague threats until the heart attack in progress came up with an actual plan.
That's not to say that the perpetually constipated Governor doesn't ever pull some bullshit on his own, though. Removing state attorneys (read: prosecutors) he doesn't like for completely made up reasons is his own thing. Appointing a complete crackpot as Surgeon General was his thing. Arresting a whistleblower's kid was probably his idea. I'm pretty sure the brown shirt brigade was also his own idea that was later supported by the legislature. In general, though, he's a follower, not a leader.
posted by wierdo at 11:57 AM on December 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Aside from the Congressional map, all the so called anti woke bullshit, to my recollection, came about because Randy Fine whispered in Ron's ear. With the Disney thing, Ol' Ronnie was doing his usual schtick of raging impotently and making vague threats until the heart attack in progress came up with an actual plan.
That's not to say that the perpetually constipated Governor doesn't ever pull some bullshit on his own, though. Removing state attorneys (read: prosecutors) he doesn't like for completely made up reasons is his own thing. Appointing a complete crackpot as Surgeon General was his thing. Arresting a whistleblower's kid was probably his idea. I'm pretty sure the brown shirt brigade was also his own idea that was later supported by the legislature. In general, though, he's a follower, not a leader.
posted by wierdo at 11:57 AM on December 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
and because the Democratic establishment picked Charlie Crist, the former Republican governor turned Democrat who everyone knew was a spineless phony.
WHY do the Democrats keep doing shit like that? Do they just hate winning or something?
"Narf, what are we going to do tonight Brain?"
"The same thing we do every night Pinkey, nominate Republican lite chuds and blame the hippies when they lose!"
"And people say I'm the crazy one..."
posted by sotonohito at 2:15 PM on December 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
WHY do the Democrats keep doing shit like that? Do they just hate winning or something?
"Narf, what are we going to do tonight Brain?"
"The same thing we do every night Pinkey, nominate Republican lite chuds and blame the hippies when they lose!"
"And people say I'm the crazy one..."
posted by sotonohito at 2:15 PM on December 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Well, almost no one with an actual life wants to be a politician, and most Democratic voters have a life. It's better to be a local activist than to be a party politician. It's better to be an important donor than to be a party politician.
Republicans in general are crooks and pedophiles or have other things they are ashamed of, and they are also just plain weird, so for them, politics are a route to fame.
posted by mumimor at 2:33 PM on December 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Republicans in general are crooks and pedophiles or have other things they are ashamed of, and they are also just plain weird, so for them, politics are a route to fame.
posted by mumimor at 2:33 PM on December 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Possibly speaking to an empty room now, but for the record:
Today the Orlando Sentinel has a story with a bunch of demographic expert types opining that the "Big Sort" is bringing hundreds of thousands of probable Trumpers to Florida. So the chances of any return to Democratic hands are getting slimmer. No real data, just matching the migration pattern to the registered voter totals, but it checks out with what I see in our county.
I forgot to mention another reason DeSantis won the first time: Racism. That's what it looked like, anyway. He ran against Andrew Gillum, the mayor of Jacksonville. Gillum is a Black man (and yes, as it turned out, had addiction issues that would have ended his time in office, had he won) who ran a terrific, high-energy campaign.
At the same time, former Sen. Bill Nelson, a longtime politician and white man, ran a terrible campaign against fraudster and Voldemort lookalike Rick Scott. Both were statewide candidates, so they had the same number of potential voters. Nelson, with his sorry campaign, received ~46,000 more votes than Gillum, who had barnstormed the state.
In short -- almost 50,000 people who voted for the white Democrat didn't vote for the Black Democrat. And as noted above, just 30,000 votes would have put Gillum ahead of DeSantis.
posted by martin q blank at 9:49 AM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Today the Orlando Sentinel has a story with a bunch of demographic expert types opining that the "Big Sort" is bringing hundreds of thousands of probable Trumpers to Florida. So the chances of any return to Democratic hands are getting slimmer. No real data, just matching the migration pattern to the registered voter totals, but it checks out with what I see in our county.
I forgot to mention another reason DeSantis won the first time: Racism. That's what it looked like, anyway. He ran against Andrew Gillum, the mayor of Jacksonville. Gillum is a Black man (and yes, as it turned out, had addiction issues that would have ended his time in office, had he won) who ran a terrific, high-energy campaign.
At the same time, former Sen. Bill Nelson, a longtime politician and white man, ran a terrible campaign against fraudster and Voldemort lookalike Rick Scott. Both were statewide candidates, so they had the same number of potential voters. Nelson, with his sorry campaign, received ~46,000 more votes than Gillum, who had barnstormed the state.
In short -- almost 50,000 people who voted for the white Democrat didn't vote for the Black Democrat. And as noted above, just 30,000 votes would have put Gillum ahead of DeSantis.
posted by martin q blank at 9:49 AM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Andrew Gillum, the mayor of Jacksonville.
Tallahassee, please. We Tallahasseeans may not have much, but we're not to be confused with someplace else, thank you very much.
posted by grubi at 10:44 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Tallahassee, please. We Tallahasseeans may not have much, but we're not to be confused with someplace else, thank you very much.
posted by grubi at 10:44 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
So sorry! I knew better. I'd like to say that all of you South Georgia towns are the same to us in the southern part of the state, but really it's because we just did a rewatch of The Good Place and Jason Mendoza's battle cry is still echoing in my ears.
posted by martin q blank at 11:46 AM on December 27, 2023
posted by martin q blank at 11:46 AM on December 27, 2023
flagged for sullying the good name of georgia with floridian panhandlerites
posted by i used to be someone else at 7:12 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by i used to be someone else at 7:12 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
flagged for sullying the good name of georgia with floridian panhandlerites
Tallahassee is not quite Georgia, not quite Florida. Halfway between St Augustine and Pensacola (which is how it got chosen to be the state capital, btw). Our big university isn't as famous as the University of Florida or the University of Miami. Our slogan should be Tallahassee: Forever the Middle Child.
posted by grubi at 5:12 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Tallahassee is not quite Georgia, not quite Florida. Halfway between St Augustine and Pensacola (which is how it got chosen to be the state capital, btw). Our big university isn't as famous as the University of Florida or the University of Miami. Our slogan should be Tallahassee: Forever the Middle Child.
posted by grubi at 5:12 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
There is no "culture wars". Hate is not a culture.
I can think of a glaring example to the contrary in the history of the 1930s and 1940s Europe, Hate was the the frame of its cruelties and the fuel on which it ran.
posted by y2karl at 5:58 PM on January 3
I can think of a glaring example to the contrary in the history of the 1930s and 1940s Europe, Hate was the the frame of its cruelties and the fuel on which it ran.
posted by y2karl at 5:58 PM on January 3
There is no "culture wars". Hate is not a culture.
The reverse is more true. Racial, ethnic and religious animus are all cultural and the ideological motive for war and genocide. If that's not enough to dismiss cultural idealism, consider that slavery, sexism and classism are also cultural. If two random people find themselves on a lush deserted island, they will likely cooperate as individuals for survival. But if two distinct groups find themselves in the same situation, they will be lucky to survive each other.
posted by Brian B. at 10:12 PM on January 5
The reverse is more true. Racial, ethnic and religious animus are all cultural and the ideological motive for war and genocide. If that's not enough to dismiss cultural idealism, consider that slavery, sexism and classism are also cultural. If two random people find themselves on a lush deserted island, they will likely cooperate as individuals for survival. But if two distinct groups find themselves in the same situation, they will be lucky to survive each other.
posted by Brian B. at 10:12 PM on January 5
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And accurate.
posted by chronkite at 6:28 AM on December 25, 2023 [8 favorites]