"I was allowed to believe things that weren’t true."
October 18, 2022 5:00 AM Subscribe
The Problem of Marjorie Taylor Greene (NYT gift link, archive.org) What the rise of the far-right Congresswoman means for the House, the GOP, and the nation. Adapted from Weapons of Mass Delusion: When the Republican Party Lost its Mind, out today.
I am actually far more interested in hearing from Greene's constituents rather than her. They gave her the power and they can take it away. Will they be courageous enough or will she be brought down by redistricting? Or will she be saved by Hispanic Republican voters who she would have barred from entering the country?
posted by tafetta, darling! at 6:38 AM on October 18, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by tafetta, darling! at 6:38 AM on October 18, 2022 [9 favorites]
The true problem with Greene is that she’s merely the warm-up act.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:40 AM on October 18, 2022 [61 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 6:40 AM on October 18, 2022 [61 favorites]
I was in Rome, GA back in July which is ground zero for MTG's district and the only political signs to be seen were for Greene. And, there were a lot of them. Not a single sign for her competition.
If the republicans take back the House and the senate in two weeks I think we'll all be able to agree we're at the end of whatever America was and at the beginning of a fascist takeover that will likely be complete in 2024 when republican legislatures refuse to certify any election that was won by a democrat. Scary stuff.
posted by photoslob at 7:19 AM on October 18, 2022 [26 favorites]
If the republicans take back the House and the senate in two weeks I think we'll all be able to agree we're at the end of whatever America was and at the beginning of a fascist takeover that will likely be complete in 2024 when republican legislatures refuse to certify any election that was won by a democrat. Scary stuff.
posted by photoslob at 7:19 AM on October 18, 2022 [26 favorites]
The problem is not with MTG, the problem is with America
posted by Jon_Evil at 7:22 AM on October 18, 2022 [39 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 7:22 AM on October 18, 2022 [39 favorites]
I find this extremely relevant:
The oligarchs have captured the media and are inflaming the populace with anti-woke racist garbage to drive the election of turds like MTG because a fascist white ethnostate run by their puppets will ensure their continued extraction of value from society.
Seriously, the only way out of this mess is either a general strike or guillotines. (both.gif)
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:38 AM on October 18, 2022 [67 favorites]
Hitler could not have come to power without the large section of German voters who rallied to his populist rhetoric and joined in his scapegoating of Jews and Communists for the capitalist crisis of the Great Depression. But it was not their votes that secured his power; nor was it their interests that guided his policies. He placed himself ... at the service of Germany’s industrial and financial elite. In his ambition for total power, they saw an opportunity to crush Communists, socialists, trade unionists, democratic movements and institutions, and any other obstacles to the unchecked rule of property.Source
The oligarchs have captured the media and are inflaming the populace with anti-woke racist garbage to drive the election of turds like MTG because a fascist white ethnostate run by their puppets will ensure their continued extraction of value from society.
Seriously, the only way out of this mess is either a general strike or guillotines. (both.gif)
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:38 AM on October 18, 2022 [67 favorites]
Seriously, the only way out of this mess is either a general strike or guillotines.
The problem remains that if we can barely convince people to vote the bastards out we're hardly likely to convince them to join a general strike. MTG's constituents like her, and they've got guns.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:55 AM on October 18, 2022 [19 favorites]
The problem remains that if we can barely convince people to vote the bastards out we're hardly likely to convince them to join a general strike. MTG's constituents like her, and they've got guns.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:55 AM on October 18, 2022 [19 favorites]
People are not homogenous though; don't give up hope. A general strike's effectiveness isn't just made with numbers, but with the industries it affects. The more value the worker creates, the more damage their strike creates. Maybe you don't get gun-totin' racists to go on strike. Maybe you don't need to.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:14 AM on October 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:14 AM on October 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
General Boycott >> General Strike
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:22 AM on October 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:22 AM on October 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
If the republicans take back the House and the senate in two weeks I think we'll all be able to agree we're at the end of whatever America was and at the beginning of a fascist takeover that will likely be complete in 2024 when republican legislatures refuse to certify any election that was won by a democrat.
The word you need to remember most in that sentence is: "IF."
The thing that will stop this kind of takeover is a large enough voter turnout that will prevent it from happening. And speaking as if it has already happened, by speculating about the 2024 election based on a projected outcome for midterms that haven't happened yet, runs the risk of scaring people into giving up at a moment when we need them to take action.
The expression "hope for the best, expect the worst" has two halves to it but I too often see people only using one of those halves, and they sound a lot like Bill Paxton in Aliens: "That's it, man! Game over, man, game over!"
The game isn't over. Expect the worst but hope for the best. IF.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:26 AM on October 18, 2022 [55 favorites]
The word you need to remember most in that sentence is: "IF."
The thing that will stop this kind of takeover is a large enough voter turnout that will prevent it from happening. And speaking as if it has already happened, by speculating about the 2024 election based on a projected outcome for midterms that haven't happened yet, runs the risk of scaring people into giving up at a moment when we need them to take action.
The expression "hope for the best, expect the worst" has two halves to it but I too often see people only using one of those halves, and they sound a lot like Bill Paxton in Aliens: "That's it, man! Game over, man, game over!"
The game isn't over. Expect the worst but hope for the best. IF.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:26 AM on October 18, 2022 [55 favorites]
I take some comfort from the fact that the Republicans wouldn't be going full fascist if they didn't know they have no hope of a majority otherwise, despite their structural advantages. And extreme gerrymandering produces extremist candidates like MTG, because the primary is tantamount to the election.
She's a symptom of the problem, but the Republicans are flailing against the fact that they are a minority.
posted by Gelatin at 8:30 AM on October 18, 2022 [10 favorites]
She's a symptom of the problem, but the Republicans are flailing against the fact that they are a minority.
posted by Gelatin at 8:30 AM on October 18, 2022 [10 favorites]
I was in Rome, GA back in July which is ground zero for MTG's district and the only political signs to be seen were for Greene. And, there were a lot of them. Not a single sign for her competition.
Having lived in an area about this, this is as much about fear as anything else. If you support Marcus Flowers (and we should say his name a lot), you don't want to draw the attention of her supporters to your home. Because you fear what they might do.
And that, in and of itself, is the issue.
posted by anastasiav at 8:38 AM on October 18, 2022 [60 favorites]
Having lived in an area about this, this is as much about fear as anything else. If you support Marcus Flowers (and we should say his name a lot), you don't want to draw the attention of her supporters to your home. Because you fear what they might do.
And that, in and of itself, is the issue.
posted by anastasiav at 8:38 AM on October 18, 2022 [60 favorites]
> When they write the obituary for the American democratic experiment, I hope they include a chapter devoted to the so-called leftist media's habit of chortling into their brandy snifters while delivering pithy bon mots about politicians telling bald-faced lies.
To get elected, there's lying and posturing from both sides (and that's the fundamental problem with the US political system: only two sides), although the right have certainlyelevated depressed it to new levels.
I thought the NYT excerpt was insightful and factual. I don't need to be told that an obvious lie is just that, nor do I need moral guidance for when to applaud and when to boo. I want to look into the head of people like MTG and understand better why they think the way they do. And I felt this excerpt succeeded in that.
I don't think the US population (or just one half) has lost its mind; I think the US political system has become too easy to game with populism, intimidation and partisanship. And, of course, money. Change the game.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:23 AM on October 18, 2022 [7 favorites]
To get elected, there's lying and posturing from both sides (and that's the fundamental problem with the US political system: only two sides), although the right have certainly
I thought the NYT excerpt was insightful and factual. I don't need to be told that an obvious lie is just that, nor do I need moral guidance for when to applaud and when to boo. I want to look into the head of people like MTG and understand better why they think the way they do. And I felt this excerpt succeeded in that.
I don't think the US population (or just one half) has lost its mind; I think the US political system has become too easy to game with populism, intimidation and partisanship. And, of course, money. Change the game.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:23 AM on October 18, 2022 [7 favorites]
I think a lot about when this will end, and how. People who vote for Greene are voting against reality, as are the people voting for people like her all over the world. Italy has just now elected a fascist leader. Historically, that sentiment has had to be literally killed. I mean, US and UK nazis weren't generally killed during or after WWII, but they had to see the Nazi regime squashed completely before they shut up (and even then, Trump is probably carrying on his dad's legacy). Is there no more peaceful way?
posted by mumimor at 9:28 AM on October 18, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 9:28 AM on October 18, 2022 [13 favorites]
The game isn't over. Expect the worst but hope for the best. IF.
The game isn't over even if the worst happens in the midterms and then in 2024. If winning an election or a battle were all it took, then no one would wave the Confederate flag today, and the Civil Rights movement would not have needed to happen. Greene's opponent in 2020 got 25% of the vote. Sounds like opponent, Van Ausdal, withdrew early because of the threat of violence and fear of QAnon. He wasn't prepared for that. He sounds like just an ordinary guy. We have to support those 25% of people that hoped Van Ausdal would step up to Greene, and anyone who votes for Flowers in this election. The work is building up infrastructure over time where the was little to none before. The Democratic Party has to help people even if they aren't elected.
posted by Mister Cheese at 9:31 AM on October 18, 2022 [12 favorites]
The game isn't over even if the worst happens in the midterms and then in 2024. If winning an election or a battle were all it took, then no one would wave the Confederate flag today, and the Civil Rights movement would not have needed to happen. Greene's opponent in 2020 got 25% of the vote. Sounds like opponent, Van Ausdal, withdrew early because of the threat of violence and fear of QAnon. He wasn't prepared for that. He sounds like just an ordinary guy. We have to support those 25% of people that hoped Van Ausdal would step up to Greene, and anyone who votes for Flowers in this election. The work is building up infrastructure over time where the was little to none before. The Democratic Party has to help people even if they aren't elected.
posted by Mister Cheese at 9:31 AM on October 18, 2022 [12 favorites]
that's the fundamental problem with the US political system: only two sides
European politics (among others) demonstrates that multiparty parliamentary democracy is not exactly a panacea.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:42 AM on October 18, 2022 [21 favorites]
European politics (among others) demonstrates that multiparty parliamentary democracy is not exactly a panacea.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:42 AM on October 18, 2022 [21 favorites]
Is there no more peaceful way?
No. Peaceful, non-violent opposition is predicated on two principles: one, that it's the alternative to violence, and two, that your oppressor fundamentally sees you as a human.
Gandhi and MLK Jr. are propped up as examples without the context that they were the peaceful alternative to their more violent ideological allies. Plus, y'know, both were assassinated, which kind of hurts the case to use them as examples.
But probably more important is that second principle. Nazis do not see their targets as human. They see them as subhuman. Nazis want us dead, so crushing Nazis is self-defense.
posted by explosion at 9:43 AM on October 18, 2022 [34 favorites]
No. Peaceful, non-violent opposition is predicated on two principles: one, that it's the alternative to violence, and two, that your oppressor fundamentally sees you as a human.
Gandhi and MLK Jr. are propped up as examples without the context that they were the peaceful alternative to their more violent ideological allies. Plus, y'know, both were assassinated, which kind of hurts the case to use them as examples.
But probably more important is that second principle. Nazis do not see their targets as human. They see them as subhuman. Nazis want us dead, so crushing Nazis is self-defense.
posted by explosion at 9:43 AM on October 18, 2022 [34 favorites]
The game isn't over. Expect the worst but hope for the best. IF.
EmpressCallipygos, I have always respected your positivity and cautious optimism especially since you're in red state like myself. I just can't bring myself to be optimistic about politics in the south and I've totally given up thinking things will change for the better. I'm old, I've lived through and continue to fight a life threatening illness and I'm simply trying to make the best of things until I'm able to get out of the south for good. God speed.
posted by photoslob at 9:44 AM on October 18, 2022 [9 favorites]
EmpressCallipygos, I have always respected your positivity and cautious optimism especially since you're in red state like myself. I just can't bring myself to be optimistic about politics in the south and I've totally given up thinking things will change for the better. I'm old, I've lived through and continue to fight a life threatening illness and I'm simply trying to make the best of things until I'm able to get out of the south for good. God speed.
posted by photoslob at 9:44 AM on October 18, 2022 [9 favorites]
The work is building up infrastructure over time where the was little to none before.
I keep thinking about this Democratic meeting I went to a couple of years ago, just after the 2020 election, when they thanked us for our work (and I was invited because I canvassed for Phil Bredesen) and then asked us what we wanted for the future of the party, and asked did we want them to focus on growing support in urban districts or rural? And everybody basically yes do both but it was clear that the state-level party didn't think they had the resources to do both. Because nationally, Tennessee has been abandoned. And I get why, but it's still galling.
posted by joannemerriam at 9:48 AM on October 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
I keep thinking about this Democratic meeting I went to a couple of years ago, just after the 2020 election, when they thanked us for our work (and I was invited because I canvassed for Phil Bredesen) and then asked us what we wanted for the future of the party, and asked did we want them to focus on growing support in urban districts or rural? And everybody basically yes do both but it was clear that the state-level party didn't think they had the resources to do both. Because nationally, Tennessee has been abandoned. And I get why, but it's still galling.
posted by joannemerriam at 9:48 AM on October 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
> European politics (among others) demonstrates that multiparty parliamentary democracy is not exactly a panacea.
Not a panacea, but certainly much less prone to the reality-distorting bipolarity of the US party system. More parties = a broader range of policies and options. Voters are much more likely vote for policy than partisanship. Compromises are necessary when parties sometimes have to form coalitions to govern. The US system seems to have no room for public pragmatism and moderation.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:55 AM on October 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
Not a panacea, but certainly much less prone to the reality-distorting bipolarity of the US party system. More parties = a broader range of policies and options. Voters are much more likely vote for policy than partisanship. Compromises are necessary when parties sometimes have to form coalitions to govern. The US system seems to have no room for public pragmatism and moderation.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:55 AM on October 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
Didn't Biden win on the promise of pragmatism and moderation?
posted by BungaDunga at 9:59 AM on October 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 9:59 AM on October 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
That is to say- the US Democrats are already a coalition. The Republicans used to be a coalition too until the Tea Partiers took over the reigns and the MAGAs finished the job. US politics has always been about coalitions, it's just not been formalized in a multiparty system.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:04 AM on October 18, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 10:04 AM on October 18, 2022 [20 favorites]
Compromises are necessary when parties sometimes have to form coalitions to govern.
The parties in the US system do form coalitions; they just do so before the election instead of after it. The Republican Party is a coalition of business-friendly plutocrats, evangelicals, cultural conservatives, white supremacists, and others. The Democratic Party is an uneasy coalition between multiple interest groups and a broad range of generally left-leaning ideologies, as abundantly demonstrated by the arguments here on the Blue.
The US system seems to have no room for public pragmatism and moderation.
Well, for starters, we've already seen the Biden Administration enact a number of measures of public pragmatism and moderation. A big part of the problem is extreme partisan gerrymandering making Congressional districts less competitive, which naturally gives rise to more extreme candidates, as during the primary they appeal to the party's most partisan voters.
But another part of it is the Republican Party's longstanding abandonment of good faith governance. They have long since given up on persuasion and are clearly bent on securing minority rule, which often means (cf. Mitch McConnell) trying to prevent Democrats from enacting policies perceived to be popular even if the Republicans agree with them or the policies would benefit their own constituents. (An artifact of this aspect is Republicans touting to their constituents benefits of Democratic legislation that they personally voted against.)
posted by Gelatin at 10:05 AM on October 18, 2022 [23 favorites]
The parties in the US system do form coalitions; they just do so before the election instead of after it. The Republican Party is a coalition of business-friendly plutocrats, evangelicals, cultural conservatives, white supremacists, and others. The Democratic Party is an uneasy coalition between multiple interest groups and a broad range of generally left-leaning ideologies, as abundantly demonstrated by the arguments here on the Blue.
The US system seems to have no room for public pragmatism and moderation.
Well, for starters, we've already seen the Biden Administration enact a number of measures of public pragmatism and moderation. A big part of the problem is extreme partisan gerrymandering making Congressional districts less competitive, which naturally gives rise to more extreme candidates, as during the primary they appeal to the party's most partisan voters.
But another part of it is the Republican Party's longstanding abandonment of good faith governance. They have long since given up on persuasion and are clearly bent on securing minority rule, which often means (cf. Mitch McConnell) trying to prevent Democrats from enacting policies perceived to be popular even if the Republicans agree with them or the policies would benefit their own constituents. (An artifact of this aspect is Republicans touting to their constituents benefits of Democratic legislation that they personally voted against.)
posted by Gelatin at 10:05 AM on October 18, 2022 [23 favorites]
EmpressCallipygos, I have always respected your positivity and cautious optimism especially since you're in red state like myself.
I'm actually not in a Red state - I'm in New York. (There's more than one reason I fangirl Tish James so hard.)
And I don't know if this is necessarily "positivity" - more an acknowledgement that the situation is not decided yet. It's kind of like that story that everyone says is a Zen parable: about a poor farmer who had only a single horse, and one day the horse jumped the fence and escaped. His neighbors all came to say how he was unlucky to have lost his horse. But he said only, "Maybe." And then the next day, the horse came back, with 3 other wild horses following along with it. This time his neighbors all came by and told him he was lucky to have 4 horses now where he only had one. And he said only, "Maybe." ....A couple days later his teenage son was trying to tame one of the new horses, and the horse threw him off and it broke his son's leg. The neighbors said he was unlucky. But again, the farmer only said "maybe". ....And that evening, some draft officers from the king's army came looking for soldiers - and passed his son up because he had a broken leg. "Wow, that was lucky, wasn't it?" The neighbors remarked. But the farmer still only said, "Maybe."
The story isn't over, and it can change any one of a number of unforeseen ways. There are two full weeks for sudden news stories to break that could shift the needle. There are people working to enroll first-time voters even as we speak, and we don't yet know how those people are going to vote. There may be someone whose brakes fail right as Marjorie Taylor Greene is crossing the street in front of them tomorrow.
Predicting the future is a mug's game, is all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:11 AM on October 18, 2022 [36 favorites]
I'm actually not in a Red state - I'm in New York. (There's more than one reason I fangirl Tish James so hard.)
And I don't know if this is necessarily "positivity" - more an acknowledgement that the situation is not decided yet. It's kind of like that story that everyone says is a Zen parable: about a poor farmer who had only a single horse, and one day the horse jumped the fence and escaped. His neighbors all came to say how he was unlucky to have lost his horse. But he said only, "Maybe." And then the next day, the horse came back, with 3 other wild horses following along with it. This time his neighbors all came by and told him he was lucky to have 4 horses now where he only had one. And he said only, "Maybe." ....A couple days later his teenage son was trying to tame one of the new horses, and the horse threw him off and it broke his son's leg. The neighbors said he was unlucky. But again, the farmer only said "maybe". ....And that evening, some draft officers from the king's army came looking for soldiers - and passed his son up because he had a broken leg. "Wow, that was lucky, wasn't it?" The neighbors remarked. But the farmer still only said, "Maybe."
The story isn't over, and it can change any one of a number of unforeseen ways. There are two full weeks for sudden news stories to break that could shift the needle. There are people working to enroll first-time voters even as we speak, and we don't yet know how those people are going to vote. There may be someone whose brakes fail right as Marjorie Taylor Greene is crossing the street in front of them tomorrow.
Predicting the future is a mug's game, is all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:11 AM on October 18, 2022 [36 favorites]
> Didn't Biden win on the promise of pragmatism and moderation?
Biden won because
1) just about all Democrat card-carrying or Dem-leaning voters voted for him, and
2) enough "independent" voters and a handful of GOP voters voted for him, probably out of dislike for Trump.
(or Biden stole the election, depending who you ask)
Don't you see that #1 is the big problem? Both parties rely on massive cores of card-carrying and/or hereditary and/or identity partisan votes, and elections are won or lost based on a very small number of persuadable votes. In what other country is 52% a landslide or decisive?
> The parties in the US system do form coalitions; they just do so before the election instead of after it.
You can't shoehorn the whole spectrum of political sentiment and possibilities into just two parties. Where else besides the US do you have Joe Manchin, OAC and Bernie Sanders in the same party? Or Romney and Trump together?
The US pre-election "coalitions" you speak of are for the purpose of WINNING BIGLY (yes, thank you, Donald) not governing.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:25 AM on October 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
Biden won because
1) just about all Democrat card-carrying or Dem-leaning voters voted for him, and
2) enough "independent" voters and a handful of GOP voters voted for him, probably out of dislike for Trump.
(or Biden stole the election, depending who you ask)
Don't you see that #1 is the big problem? Both parties rely on massive cores of card-carrying and/or hereditary and/or identity partisan votes, and elections are won or lost based on a very small number of persuadable votes. In what other country is 52% a landslide or decisive?
> The parties in the US system do form coalitions; they just do so before the election instead of after it.
You can't shoehorn the whole spectrum of political sentiment and possibilities into just two parties. Where else besides the US do you have Joe Manchin, OAC and Bernie Sanders in the same party? Or Romney and Trump together?
The US pre-election "coalitions" you speak of are for the purpose of WINNING BIGLY (yes, thank you, Donald) not governing.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:25 AM on October 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
Predicting the future is a mug's game, is all.
Maybe.
posted by chavenet at 10:29 AM on October 18, 2022 [22 favorites]
Maybe.
posted by chavenet at 10:29 AM on October 18, 2022 [22 favorites]
Hang on, this is an even better encapsulation of my view. The full piece is here - it's a blog post from G. Willow Wilson, probably best known these days for relaunching Ms. Marvel.
"Anas ibn Malik reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said: 'If the Final Hour comes while you have a shoot of a plant in your hands and it is possible to plant it before the Hour comes, you should plant it'."posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:30 AM on October 18, 2022 [41 favorites]
In other words, your work is valuable even if the outcome is uncertain. In fact, your work is valuable even if the world collapses into a fiery pit anyway. Don't let the pollyannas sell you on hope; give yourself something more durable. In [one piece] I called it faith [....] but either purpose or faith would work since neither is outcome-dependent. Maybe the world really is about to descend into a hell of climate change and weird new diseases and rampant theocratic nationalism no matter what we do - but that does not mean we are entitled to down tools and fall into despair. Because if we can make things even a little bit better for even a few people - if we can cushion the fall for whoever comes next - then we must.
Artful Codger
I don't need to be told that an obvious lie is just that, nor do I need moral guidance for when to applaud and when to boo.
You're not being told "when to applaud and when to boo", what's being asked is for the media to simply call out lies when someone lies. This was a noted problem under Trump: in an attempt to stay "neutral", the media often just reported what he said without comment, even if it were false, or fastidiously avoided directly saying his lies were lies.
I don't think the US population (or just one half) has lost its mind
Then you think wrong. You are simply wrong. This "both sides" nonsense is the problem, demonstrably so. Only one side is decrying election results and openly enacting laws in a systematic nation-wide effort to control future elections. Only one side is openly and gleefully passing laws intentionally designed to harm sexual and racial minorities. Maybe one half of other country hasn't lost their mind, but they are openly and enthusiastically supporting fascism.
If you believe otherwise, you're really going to have to show your work here, because both sides are decidedly not the same at all.
Not a panacea, but certainly much less prone to the reality-distorting bipolarity of the US party system. More parties = a broader range of policies and options.
As noted above, Italy just elected Giorgia Meloni, the head of a party literally descended from Mussolini's Fascists who is widely expected to form Italy's most right-wing government since World War Two. The last decade or so has seen the rise across Europe of rightwing parties and leaders in those glorious multi-party havens of compromise and reality.
Respectfully, pull your head out of the sand. You seem to think that all this is merely a structural problem that can be solved by tinkering with the rules of the system. This is a grievous error. A system can only work if people are participating in good faith. In the US, the Republicans have declared that their specific goal is to change the system so they will always win.
It's understandable why you cling to the system explanation, because the reality is much scarier: the problem is fundamentally with the people themselves, a much more difficult issue to tackle.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:39 AM on October 18, 2022 [33 favorites]
I don't need to be told that an obvious lie is just that, nor do I need moral guidance for when to applaud and when to boo.
You're not being told "when to applaud and when to boo", what's being asked is for the media to simply call out lies when someone lies. This was a noted problem under Trump: in an attempt to stay "neutral", the media often just reported what he said without comment, even if it were false, or fastidiously avoided directly saying his lies were lies.
I don't think the US population (or just one half) has lost its mind
Then you think wrong. You are simply wrong. This "both sides" nonsense is the problem, demonstrably so. Only one side is decrying election results and openly enacting laws in a systematic nation-wide effort to control future elections. Only one side is openly and gleefully passing laws intentionally designed to harm sexual and racial minorities. Maybe one half of other country hasn't lost their mind, but they are openly and enthusiastically supporting fascism.
If you believe otherwise, you're really going to have to show your work here, because both sides are decidedly not the same at all.
Not a panacea, but certainly much less prone to the reality-distorting bipolarity of the US party system. More parties = a broader range of policies and options.
As noted above, Italy just elected Giorgia Meloni, the head of a party literally descended from Mussolini's Fascists who is widely expected to form Italy's most right-wing government since World War Two. The last decade or so has seen the rise across Europe of rightwing parties and leaders in those glorious multi-party havens of compromise and reality.
Respectfully, pull your head out of the sand. You seem to think that all this is merely a structural problem that can be solved by tinkering with the rules of the system. This is a grievous error. A system can only work if people are participating in good faith. In the US, the Republicans have declared that their specific goal is to change the system so they will always win.
It's understandable why you cling to the system explanation, because the reality is much scarier: the problem is fundamentally with the people themselves, a much more difficult issue to tackle.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:39 AM on October 18, 2022 [33 favorites]
I don't think the US population (or just one half) has lost its mind
It's not just the US ...
The majority of Conservative Party members want Liz Truss to resign now - just six weeks after voting her in - and former PM Boris Johnson topped the list of who would be best to replace her, a new poll has found.
posted by chavenet at 10:41 AM on October 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's not just the US ...
The majority of Conservative Party members want Liz Truss to resign now - just six weeks after voting her in - and former PM Boris Johnson topped the list of who would be best to replace her, a new poll has found.
posted by chavenet at 10:41 AM on October 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
More parties = a broader range of policies and options. Voters are much more likely vote for policy than partisanship. Compromises are necessary when parties sometimes have to form coalitions to govern.
Counterpoint - India, whose political structure has historically had a number of parties, and yet has historically struggled with ethnonationalism and sectarian strife which has gotten worse. Or Israel, where the need to form coalitions to govern allows small, extreme parties to play kingmaker and have their larger partners "compromise" and take on their more extreme positions.
He won because
1) just about all Democrat card-carrying or Dem-leaning voters voted for him, and
2) enough "independent" voters and a handful of GOP voters voted for him, probably out of dislike for Trump.
Don't you see that #1 is the big problem? Both parties rely on massive cores of card-carrying and/or hereditary and/or identity partisan votes, and elections are won or lost based on a very small number of persuadable votes?
Actually, elections are won by turning out one's own base while convincing the opposition not to. But beyond that, the way your argument dismisses voter agency is why it is horribly flawed.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:42 AM on October 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
Counterpoint - India, whose political structure has historically had a number of parties, and yet has historically struggled with ethnonationalism and sectarian strife which has gotten worse. Or Israel, where the need to form coalitions to govern allows small, extreme parties to play kingmaker and have their larger partners "compromise" and take on their more extreme positions.
He won because
1) just about all Democrat card-carrying or Dem-leaning voters voted for him, and
2) enough "independent" voters and a handful of GOP voters voted for him, probably out of dislike for Trump.
Don't you see that #1 is the big problem? Both parties rely on massive cores of card-carrying and/or hereditary and/or identity partisan votes, and elections are won or lost based on a very small number of persuadable votes?
Actually, elections are won by turning out one's own base while convincing the opposition not to. But beyond that, the way your argument dismisses voter agency is why it is horribly flawed.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:42 AM on October 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
Sorry, I need to add this:
> The parties in the US system do form coalitions; they just do so before the election instead of after it.
Political parties should coalesce around ideas. Ideas should not have to force their way into one of two parties.
Hello sgu:
Respectfully, pull your head out of the sand. You seem to think that all this is merely a structural problem that can be solved by tinkering with the rules of the system. This is a grievous error. A system can only work if people are participating in good faith. In the US, the Republicans have declared that their specific goal is to change the system so they will always win.
It's understandable why you cling to the system explanation, because the reality is much scarier: the problem is fundamentally with the people themselves, a much more difficult issue to tackle.
You're kind of proving my point. The US party system has made it possible to "change the system so [the GOP] will always win".
And I'm not suggesting tinkering. Something monumental has to happen, like maybe the nutters breaking away from the GOP, or moderates and anyone else tired of the two-party feuding forms a centrist party.
NoxA: the way your argument dismisses voter agency is why it is horribly flawed.
sgu says that yes, half the US have lost their minds... you say I dismiss voter agency. Which is it, folks?
posted by Artful Codger at 10:52 AM on October 18, 2022
> The parties in the US system do form coalitions; they just do so before the election instead of after it.
Political parties should coalesce around ideas. Ideas should not have to force their way into one of two parties.
Hello sgu:
Respectfully, pull your head out of the sand. You seem to think that all this is merely a structural problem that can be solved by tinkering with the rules of the system. This is a grievous error. A system can only work if people are participating in good faith. In the US, the Republicans have declared that their specific goal is to change the system so they will always win.
It's understandable why you cling to the system explanation, because the reality is much scarier: the problem is fundamentally with the people themselves, a much more difficult issue to tackle.
You're kind of proving my point. The US party system has made it possible to "change the system so [the GOP] will always win".
And I'm not suggesting tinkering. Something monumental has to happen, like maybe the nutters breaking away from the GOP, or moderates and anyone else tired of the two-party feuding forms a centrist party.
NoxA: the way your argument dismisses voter agency is why it is horribly flawed.
sgu says that yes, half the US have lost their minds... you say I dismiss voter agency. Which is it, folks?
posted by Artful Codger at 10:52 AM on October 18, 2022
Where else besides the US do you have Joe Manchin, OAC and Bernie Sanders in the same party?
That's why I called the Democrats several parties in a trenchcoat. Places like Germany have ended up with a vaguely similar set of people in coalition together anyway.
Yeah, we don't have a formal multiparty system. It might be marginally better if we did, but on the other hand our politics might just turn into Italy's. Hard to say.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:21 AM on October 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
That's why I called the Democrats several parties in a trenchcoat. Places like Germany have ended up with a vaguely similar set of people in coalition together anyway.
Yeah, we don't have a formal multiparty system. It might be marginally better if we did, but on the other hand our politics might just turn into Italy's. Hard to say.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:21 AM on October 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
Biden won because
1) just about all Democrat card-carrying or Dem-leaning voters voted for him, and
2) enough "independent" voters and a handful of GOP voters voted for him, probably out of dislike for Trump.
He was selected by the Democrat primary electorate because he was broadly acceptable to the entire party and thought to be electable and not a firebrand. The whole primary season was about moderation vs tacking left, moderation won. The idea that a two party system always encourages polarization just doesn't seem true. The Democrats were desperate to appeal to the unaffiliated and thought that Biden was their best bet. He's a one-man walking Median Democrat! The failure mode of the primary system is Very Bad (fascist entryism overwhelmed the Republican party) but it often works just fine.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:30 AM on October 18, 2022 [10 favorites]
1) just about all Democrat card-carrying or Dem-leaning voters voted for him, and
2) enough "independent" voters and a handful of GOP voters voted for him, probably out of dislike for Trump.
He was selected by the Democrat primary electorate because he was broadly acceptable to the entire party and thought to be electable and not a firebrand. The whole primary season was about moderation vs tacking left, moderation won. The idea that a two party system always encourages polarization just doesn't seem true. The Democrats were desperate to appeal to the unaffiliated and thought that Biden was their best bet. He's a one-man walking Median Democrat! The failure mode of the primary system is Very Bad (fascist entryism overwhelmed the Republican party) but it often works just fine.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:30 AM on October 18, 2022 [10 favorites]
> The idea that a two party system always encourages polarization just doesn't seem true.
The problem with such an entrenched two party system (one where you can even register as a Dem or GOP voter, ffs) is that there are so many reasons besides actual policy how many Americans vote (habit, familiarity, peer pressure, identity)... and most importantly, because it compels so many to vote the negative. (eg "I don't like Trump, but I cannot abide Democrats").
How? Because it's so easy to tar the ONE other party with the most problematic or objectionable parts of its membership or policy. If you're a moderate conservative, you might deplore Trumpism, but you're not gonna support the party of OAC or Sanders. If you're a progressive businessperson, you might have reservations about Dems expanding debt... but you cannot stomach MTG or Trump.
Because of their ability to sharpen this polarization AND get their voters out, the populist, proto-fascist rump of the GOP have been able to dominate primaries, as you mention, and the GOP establishment will stay mum as long as this results in votes.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:53 AM on October 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
The problem with such an entrenched two party system (one where you can even register as a Dem or GOP voter, ffs) is that there are so many reasons besides actual policy how many Americans vote (habit, familiarity, peer pressure, identity)... and most importantly, because it compels so many to vote the negative. (eg "I don't like Trump, but I cannot abide Democrats").
How? Because it's so easy to tar the ONE other party with the most problematic or objectionable parts of its membership or policy. If you're a moderate conservative, you might deplore Trumpism, but you're not gonna support the party of OAC or Sanders. If you're a progressive businessperson, you might have reservations about Dems expanding debt... but you cannot stomach MTG or Trump.
Because of their ability to sharpen this polarization AND get their voters out, the populist, proto-fascist rump of the GOP have been able to dominate primaries, as you mention, and the GOP establishment will stay mum as long as this results in votes.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:53 AM on October 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'd like to know where are all those hypothetical GOP voters who when presented with a choice between fascism and higher taxes, reluctantly choose fascism.
Maybe the two-party system isn't encouraging polarization so much as giving racists, misogynists, white supremacists, would-be oligarchs, and other deplorables a convenient excuse for what they're already supporting. Can you really say that a party that literally supported an insurrection against the government is unfairly tarred by it's "most problematic or objectionable parts of its membership or policy"?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:24 PM on October 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
Maybe the two-party system isn't encouraging polarization so much as giving racists, misogynists, white supremacists, would-be oligarchs, and other deplorables a convenient excuse for what they're already supporting. Can you really say that a party that literally supported an insurrection against the government is unfairly tarred by it's "most problematic or objectionable parts of its membership or policy"?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:24 PM on October 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
Where else besides the US do you have Joe Manchin, OAC and Bernie Sanders...
...gonna support the party of OAC or Sanders...
Y'all did I miss something? When did she change her name to Ocasio Alexandra-Cortez?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:25 PM on October 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
...gonna support the party of OAC or Sanders...
Y'all did I miss something? When did she change her name to Ocasio Alexandra-Cortez?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:25 PM on October 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
sgu says that yes, half the US have lost their minds... you say I dismiss voter agency. Which is it, folks?
Yeah, I don't agree with viewing bigotry as mental illness, so don't hold that statement against me. Your argument is the usual one that I see that tries to ignore voter agency because as SGU pointed out, acknowledging that people choose their alignment means the issue is dealing with people, and not shadowy, nebulous groups. But the reality is that conservatives choose to do harm.
How? Because it's so easy to tar the ONE other party with the most problematic or objectionable parts of its membership or policy. If you're a moderate conservative, you might deplore Trumpism, but you're not gonna support the party of OAC or Sanders. If you're a progressive businessperson, you might have reservations about Dems expanding debt... but you cannot stomach MTG or Trump.
First off, it would be nice if you would properly spell Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's nickname. (And the misnaming of a prominent woman is something that does catch the eye, and not in a good way.)
Second, your unwillingness to give voters agency has led you to to engage in false equivalence. Trying to compare a left-leaning person choosing to put humanity over financial concerns with right wing voters enabling cruelty doesn't work because the two are not the same. (Not to mention that worry over debt is very much something driven by right wing concerns.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:37 PM on October 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I don't agree with viewing bigotry as mental illness, so don't hold that statement against me. Your argument is the usual one that I see that tries to ignore voter agency because as SGU pointed out, acknowledging that people choose their alignment means the issue is dealing with people, and not shadowy, nebulous groups. But the reality is that conservatives choose to do harm.
How? Because it's so easy to tar the ONE other party with the most problematic or objectionable parts of its membership or policy. If you're a moderate conservative, you might deplore Trumpism, but you're not gonna support the party of OAC or Sanders. If you're a progressive businessperson, you might have reservations about Dems expanding debt... but you cannot stomach MTG or Trump.
First off, it would be nice if you would properly spell Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's nickname. (And the misnaming of a prominent woman is something that does catch the eye, and not in a good way.)
Second, your unwillingness to give voters agency has led you to to engage in false equivalence. Trying to compare a left-leaning person choosing to put humanity over financial concerns with right wing voters enabling cruelty doesn't work because the two are not the same. (Not to mention that worry over debt is very much something driven by right wing concerns.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:37 PM on October 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
yeah, AOC. sorry all. I am in awe of her, for the record. Someone to watch.
I'd like to know where are all those hypothetical GOP voters who when presented with a choice between fascism and higher taxes, reluctantly choose fascism.
Some think they're choosing between "law and order" and COMMUNISM. I don't agree with this framing of course, but neither do I think that the majority of GOP supporters are fascists.
Can you really say that a party that literally supported an insurrection against the government is unfairly tarred by it's "most problematic or objectionable parts of its membership or policy"?
Partisans gonna partisan. Again I don't think that the majority of GOP politicians or voters are supporters of, or happy about, the actions of Jan 6, but if the official efforts to investigate and assign blame are successfully tarred as themselves partisan...
I'll butt out now, and listen to what others have to say. Thx.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:46 PM on October 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'd like to know where are all those hypothetical GOP voters who when presented with a choice between fascism and higher taxes, reluctantly choose fascism.
Some think they're choosing between "law and order" and COMMUNISM. I don't agree with this framing of course, but neither do I think that the majority of GOP supporters are fascists.
Can you really say that a party that literally supported an insurrection against the government is unfairly tarred by it's "most problematic or objectionable parts of its membership or policy"?
Partisans gonna partisan. Again I don't think that the majority of GOP politicians or voters are supporters of, or happy about, the actions of Jan 6, but if the official efforts to investigate and assign blame are successfully tarred as themselves partisan...
I'll butt out now, and listen to what others have to say. Thx.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:46 PM on October 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
It would be so easy to just out and say "this easily-proven thing is made up, and every word out of this person's mouth is likely a lie as well."
If you just mean that you can’t take the smarm of being cutesy about it, sure, but thinking at this point that it would matter one bit if they did get straight to the point honestly baffles me.
posted by atoxyl at 12:49 PM on October 18, 2022
If you just mean that you can’t take the smarm of being cutesy about it, sure, but thinking at this point that it would matter one bit if they did get straight to the point honestly baffles me.
posted by atoxyl at 12:49 PM on October 18, 2022
Artful Codger: Good, then listen up, because so far you've been willfully ignoring what others have been saying. You're fixating on the two party idea in the face of all sorts of examples (Italy, India, Israel, etc.) of multiparty systems also producing extreme, partisan results. It is demonstrably not the answer to the problem you seem to think it is. You're looking for a simple technical solution to complex political, social, and cultural problems.
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:52 PM on October 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:52 PM on October 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
I don't agree with this framing of course, but neither do I think that the majority of GOP supporters are fascists.
As a historian put it, "we have a word for those who worked with Nazis for financial or political gain - that word is Nazi." Someone who chooses to align with fascism because they feel that will get them the gains they want is a fascist, or something so close to be functionally indistinguishable. There's a point at which trying to be charitable is just turning a blind eye.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:58 PM on October 18, 2022 [18 favorites]
As a historian put it, "we have a word for those who worked with Nazis for financial or political gain - that word is Nazi." Someone who chooses to align with fascism because they feel that will get them the gains they want is a fascist, or something so close to be functionally indistinguishable. There's a point at which trying to be charitable is just turning a blind eye.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:58 PM on October 18, 2022 [18 favorites]
If you just mean that you can’t take the smarm of being cutesy about it, sure, but thinking at this point that it would matter one bit if they did get straight to the point honestly baffles me.
I read Mayor West's comment a bit differently. The media has this habit of treating every statement from a politician as being completely independent, legitimate and newsworthy.
It doesn't matter how many times a politician might have been caught in baldfaced lies before, they're still going to get their turn at the microphone to say whatever it is they want (including more baldfaced lies). Context doesn't matter one bit and the media is loath to call out obvious hypocrisy because that wouldn't be fair. In a sane world, politicians that abuse their trust with the media by telling obvious lies should either be ignored or repeatedly challenged because they're known to lie.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:19 PM on October 18, 2022 [7 favorites]
I read Mayor West's comment a bit differently. The media has this habit of treating every statement from a politician as being completely independent, legitimate and newsworthy.
It doesn't matter how many times a politician might have been caught in baldfaced lies before, they're still going to get their turn at the microphone to say whatever it is they want (including more baldfaced lies). Context doesn't matter one bit and the media is loath to call out obvious hypocrisy because that wouldn't be fair. In a sane world, politicians that abuse their trust with the media by telling obvious lies should either be ignored or repeatedly challenged because they're known to lie.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:19 PM on October 18, 2022 [7 favorites]
Someone who chooses to align with fascism because they feel that will get them the gains they want is a fascist
What's the answer then? Lock up, exile, disenfranchise or eliminate half the US electorate?
I've pointed to what I see as some fundamental problems with the US party system that I believe has facilitated its capture by populist and extreme actors. (or by the moneyed interests who like that Americans are all preoccupied with this existential political drama, while they get to carry on unmolested).
Are there any other analyses that suggest potential solutions? Cos endless hand-wringing isn't doing it for me.
(Ok this time I'm shutting up. For real. Unless specifically asked to reply.)
posted by Artful Codger at 1:19 PM on October 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
What's the answer then? Lock up, exile, disenfranchise or eliminate half the US electorate?
I've pointed to what I see as some fundamental problems with the US party system that I believe has facilitated its capture by populist and extreme actors. (or by the moneyed interests who like that Americans are all preoccupied with this existential political drama, while they get to carry on unmolested).
Are there any other analyses that suggest potential solutions? Cos endless hand-wringing isn't doing it for me.
(Ok this time I'm shutting up. For real. Unless specifically asked to reply.)
posted by Artful Codger at 1:19 PM on October 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
Related, hopeful, but ... Fukuyama: More Proof That This Really Is the End of History
Liberal democracy will not make a comeback unless people are willing to struggle on its behalf. The problem is that many who grow up living in peaceful, prosperous liberal democracies begin to take their form of government for granted. Because they have never experienced an actual tyranny, they imagine that the democratically elected governments under which they live are themselves evil dictatorships conniving to take away their rights, whether that is the European Union or the administration in Washington. But reality has intervened. The Russian invasion of Ukraine constitutes a real dictatorship trying to crush a genuinely free society with rockets and tanks, and may serve to remind the current generation of what is at stake. By resisting Russian imperialism, the Ukrainians are demonstrating the grievous weaknesses that exist at the core of an apparently strong state. They understand the true value of freedom, and are fighting a larger battle on our behalf, a battle that all of us need to join.
posted by chavenet at 1:55 PM on October 18, 2022 [15 favorites]
Liberal democracy will not make a comeback unless people are willing to struggle on its behalf. The problem is that many who grow up living in peaceful, prosperous liberal democracies begin to take their form of government for granted. Because they have never experienced an actual tyranny, they imagine that the democratically elected governments under which they live are themselves evil dictatorships conniving to take away their rights, whether that is the European Union or the administration in Washington. But reality has intervened. The Russian invasion of Ukraine constitutes a real dictatorship trying to crush a genuinely free society with rockets and tanks, and may serve to remind the current generation of what is at stake. By resisting Russian imperialism, the Ukrainians are demonstrating the grievous weaknesses that exist at the core of an apparently strong state. They understand the true value of freedom, and are fighting a larger battle on our behalf, a battle that all of us need to join.
posted by chavenet at 1:55 PM on October 18, 2022 [15 favorites]
Some think they're choosing between "law and order" and COMMUNISM. I don't agree with this framing of course, but neither do I think that the majority of GOP supporters are fascists.
Counterpoint: I actually think most of everyone, fundamentally, is a bit fascist. Or rather, we're fundamentally a bit authoritarian. We're animals, and frankly, not that impressive brain-wise, and we're very susceptible to the promises of power, control, and protection, whether that takes the form of specifically political fascism or something else.
Note I said "most" of everyone so if you're that rare enlightened bird who's never had a nasty impulse in your life, never simply wanted someone smarter and stronger to tell you what to do so you could stop thinking for a second, never once grasped for something beyond your very fairest of fair shares, please consider yourself excused from this analysis.
What's the answer then? Lock up, exile, disenfranchise or eliminate half the US electorate?
Not half of the electorate, probably, but honestly? It will probably come to that for some number of people. Hopefully just the locking up, exiling, and disenfranchising parts. It isn't like this is new or strange to the U.S. We began that process after the US Civil War, knowing it to be essential, and then welp. We gave up because we were just a skosh too racist. And now the republican party has instead done an extraordinary job locking up and disenfranchising people merely for being likely to vote counter to its interests!
The only other ways out of it to my mind are:
1. consciously overcome these impulses via education, self-examination, and a development of a moral framework in which to act against fascist impulses. In short, what I would wager most progressives in the US have done, and continue to do, on a daily basis.
2. somehow thwart the fascists electorally long enough, and apply enough pressure, to implement the kind of material and existential security and liberty that makes fascism unappealing.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:38 PM on October 18, 2022 [7 favorites]
Counterpoint: I actually think most of everyone, fundamentally, is a bit fascist. Or rather, we're fundamentally a bit authoritarian. We're animals, and frankly, not that impressive brain-wise, and we're very susceptible to the promises of power, control, and protection, whether that takes the form of specifically political fascism or something else.
Note I said "most" of everyone so if you're that rare enlightened bird who's never had a nasty impulse in your life, never simply wanted someone smarter and stronger to tell you what to do so you could stop thinking for a second, never once grasped for something beyond your very fairest of fair shares, please consider yourself excused from this analysis.
What's the answer then? Lock up, exile, disenfranchise or eliminate half the US electorate?
Not half of the electorate, probably, but honestly? It will probably come to that for some number of people. Hopefully just the locking up, exiling, and disenfranchising parts. It isn't like this is new or strange to the U.S. We began that process after the US Civil War, knowing it to be essential, and then welp. We gave up because we were just a skosh too racist. And now the republican party has instead done an extraordinary job locking up and disenfranchising people merely for being likely to vote counter to its interests!
The only other ways out of it to my mind are:
1. consciously overcome these impulses via education, self-examination, and a development of a moral framework in which to act against fascist impulses. In short, what I would wager most progressives in the US have done, and continue to do, on a daily basis.
2. somehow thwart the fascists electorally long enough, and apply enough pressure, to implement the kind of material and existential security and liberty that makes fascism unappealing.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:38 PM on October 18, 2022 [7 favorites]
I mean look. An enormous amount of the American electorate, as noted above, were actually basically Nazis in the years leading up to WWII. Our eugenics movements and segregation laws were the blueprint for the fucking Holocaust. Hitler learned it from watching us, folks. There's absolutely not a goddamn reason in the world to think that a lot of American voters aren't very extremely fascist, given the option.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:57 PM on October 18, 2022 [39 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:57 PM on October 18, 2022 [39 favorites]
What's the answer then? Lock up, exile, disenfranchise or eliminate half the US electorate?
Ironically this is exactly what that "crazy" half of the electorate that you're standing up for is doing to the other side right now.
posted by star gentle uterus at 3:09 PM on October 18, 2022 [17 favorites]
Ironically this is exactly what that "crazy" half of the electorate that you're standing up for is doing to the other side right now.
posted by star gentle uterus at 3:09 PM on October 18, 2022 [17 favorites]
Trump was not subtle about his fascist tendencies and still got far too much of the votes the second time around
posted by Jacen at 3:12 PM on October 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 3:12 PM on October 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
they're still going to get their turn at the microphone to say whatever it is they want (including more baldfaced lies)
a lie repeated 10X is more powerful than the truth that rebuts it 10X
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 3:51 PM on October 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
a lie repeated 10X is more powerful than the truth that rebuts it 10X
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 3:51 PM on October 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
The true problem with Greene is that she’s merely the warm-up act.
I thought W. Bush was the warm-up act
I thought H.W. Bush was the warm-up act
I thought Reagan was the warm-up act
I thought Nixon was the warm-up act
I thought Jim Crow was the warm-up act
...
etc. Where do we begin?
posted by JoeXIII007 at 4:06 PM on October 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
...
etc. Where do we begin?
posted by JoeXIII007 at 4:06 PM on October 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
In hindsight I feel like you can chart a clear devolution from W to Palin to Trump. W was an evil idiot, but with a glimmer of a soul somewhere down deep. Palin was dumber and evil-er, just a really mean, honking idiot who seemed more like a Mad TV character than a real person. Trump was worse than that, a big slab of pure, hammy evil. W would say bad things and try to make them sound good while Palin would say bad things and kind of snicker behind her hands like a mean high school cheerleader, but Trump would just say the worst things and then smirk about how awful he was being.
MTG is as dumb and evil as any of them but she doesn't even seem to enjoy being a shit. She's just mad all the time and wants to lash out and cause harm. She has a face like a fist. And maybe she represents the next stage for the Republicans, after Trump. No dog whistles, no "I was just kidding," no gestures in the direction of sanity. Just a boot stamping on a human face— forever.
I was in Rome, GA back in July which is ground zero for MTG's district and the only political signs to be seen were for Greene. And, there were a lot of them. Not a single sign for her competition.
When I see political signs for hateful bozos, I feel this nearly irresistible urge to vandalize. Of course I get furious when I hear about people defacing signs for lefty candidates... but then again, our candidates aren't literal fascists.
The other day I had to drive through OC (ugh) and somebody had a great big flapping flag over their house that said TRUMP WON. Just seeing it filled me with rage for hours. If you have to live in that neighborhood, how do you not mail that person a turd?
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:38 PM on October 18, 2022 [20 favorites]
MTG is as dumb and evil as any of them but she doesn't even seem to enjoy being a shit. She's just mad all the time and wants to lash out and cause harm. She has a face like a fist. And maybe she represents the next stage for the Republicans, after Trump. No dog whistles, no "I was just kidding," no gestures in the direction of sanity. Just a boot stamping on a human face— forever.
I was in Rome, GA back in July which is ground zero for MTG's district and the only political signs to be seen were for Greene. And, there were a lot of them. Not a single sign for her competition.
When I see political signs for hateful bozos, I feel this nearly irresistible urge to vandalize. Of course I get furious when I hear about people defacing signs for lefty candidates... but then again, our candidates aren't literal fascists.
The other day I had to drive through OC (ugh) and somebody had a great big flapping flag over their house that said TRUMP WON. Just seeing it filled me with rage for hours. If you have to live in that neighborhood, how do you not mail that person a turd?
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:38 PM on October 18, 2022 [20 favorites]
To borrow an old LBJ quote, if we've lost Cenk, we've lost, errm... you know...
posted by zaixfeep at 4:51 PM on October 18, 2022
posted by zaixfeep at 4:51 PM on October 18, 2022
What do I care about law? Ain't I got the power? - Cornelius Vanderbilt
That is the guiding principle, now as then.
Any member of any minority group in America -- and by 'minority' I do not mean simply members of a particular race or ethnicity, though those are the most obviously and often most viciously mistreated -- knows the drill well. The law can be on your side, common sense can be on your side, fairness, decency, the courts, the Constitution, public opinion in general, just about everything can be on your side and you can still be treated like garbage when those who oppose you say two simple words: Make me.
Trump's Big Lie is a mantra, a symbol of the tens of thousands of lies he told as POTUS, his insistence that labeling the truth "Fake news" meant it was all lies and labeling his desires as truth made them true. It is a simple statement: you cannot force us to accept reality as it is. You cannot force us to comply with the world that you want. You cannot vote or march or protest your way out of a world where we believe that white Anglo-Saxon Protestant cis het conservative males are inherently superior, where our alliance with that notion grants us perceived authority even if the laws and courts don't. We have guns, we have money, we have political influence, we have a fully insulated suite of propaganda outlets as our media, and we have the knowledge that no matter how much we act and sound like cartoon characters, the other side will feel compelled to take us seriously and grant us legitimacy and act as if our opinions carry valid weight.
Our right wing in America has worked very hard to achieve a state in which naked pandering to WASP cis het conservative male privilege puts governments at all levels in a hammerlock. Where the political system is used as a bludgeoning tool when it is under control by those forces, and is undermined and mocked and simply ignored when and where it is not. We are drowning in vile political ads right now, openly crowing how angry violent black people and immigrants will murder us all in our beds if we don't vote Republican, while elected politicians openly speak approvingly of Christian nationalism and buddy up with open white supremacists. And in large part, we all shrug and frown and act as if this is all just a sad truth, this was inevitable, this is an obstacle that will always be with us instead of treating it like the national crisis that it is.
Because millions of Americans will vote with those forces every time if they are afraid that they may personally lose something, tangible or ephemeral, if they do not -- or if the wrong people might gain something.
posted by delfin at 5:28 AM on October 19, 2022 [15 favorites]
That is the guiding principle, now as then.
Any member of any minority group in America -- and by 'minority' I do not mean simply members of a particular race or ethnicity, though those are the most obviously and often most viciously mistreated -- knows the drill well. The law can be on your side, common sense can be on your side, fairness, decency, the courts, the Constitution, public opinion in general, just about everything can be on your side and you can still be treated like garbage when those who oppose you say two simple words: Make me.
Trump's Big Lie is a mantra, a symbol of the tens of thousands of lies he told as POTUS, his insistence that labeling the truth "Fake news" meant it was all lies and labeling his desires as truth made them true. It is a simple statement: you cannot force us to accept reality as it is. You cannot force us to comply with the world that you want. You cannot vote or march or protest your way out of a world where we believe that white Anglo-Saxon Protestant cis het conservative males are inherently superior, where our alliance with that notion grants us perceived authority even if the laws and courts don't. We have guns, we have money, we have political influence, we have a fully insulated suite of propaganda outlets as our media, and we have the knowledge that no matter how much we act and sound like cartoon characters, the other side will feel compelled to take us seriously and grant us legitimacy and act as if our opinions carry valid weight.
Our right wing in America has worked very hard to achieve a state in which naked pandering to WASP cis het conservative male privilege puts governments at all levels in a hammerlock. Where the political system is used as a bludgeoning tool when it is under control by those forces, and is undermined and mocked and simply ignored when and where it is not. We are drowning in vile political ads right now, openly crowing how angry violent black people and immigrants will murder us all in our beds if we don't vote Republican, while elected politicians openly speak approvingly of Christian nationalism and buddy up with open white supremacists. And in large part, we all shrug and frown and act as if this is all just a sad truth, this was inevitable, this is an obstacle that will always be with us instead of treating it like the national crisis that it is.
Because millions of Americans will vote with those forces every time if they are afraid that they may personally lose something, tangible or ephemeral, if they do not -- or if the wrong people might gain something.
posted by delfin at 5:28 AM on October 19, 2022 [15 favorites]
In hindsight I feel like you can chart a clear devolution from W to Palin to Trump. W was an evil idiot, but with a glimmer of a soul somewhere down deep. Palin was dumber and evil-er, just a really mean, honking idiot who seemed more like a Mad TV character than a real person. Trump was worse than that, a big slab of pure, hammy evil. W would say bad things and try to make them sound good while Palin would say bad things and kind of snicker behind her hands like a mean high school cheerleader, but Trump would just say the worst things and then smirk about how awful he was being.
I think there's a serious question about whether the devolution is in terms of evil or in terms of intelligence. Because if you look at what he actually achieved, George W. Bush remains the flat-out most destructive president of my lifetime. He was astonishingly, outrageously evil. But he was a subtle enough statesman (I hate saying that) that he was able to do it all and masquerade as a beacon of democracy in action, even though he remains the only president who literally stole an election.
The wheels are coming off, but I don't really think that America is more fascist or anti-democratic than it's ever been. What I see happening is a mixture of: the right wing is both desperate enough and devolved enough that this path it's going down is the only path it's capable of. Mitch McConnell would rather the Republicans be craftier in what they do—and his precursors thought that Mitch was worryingly obvious by comparison—but they're not capable of it anymore.
The flip side to that is, they only get away with being this crude because prior generations of Republican have damaged our systems of governance to the point where this is, in fact, possible. And they are of course seeking to damage things even more, which will in turn enable even worse people. The open question for me is whether or not their incompetence and stupidity will outpace their rate of destruction, and while I'm an optimist in the sense that I think that will happen at some point, I'm not an optimist in the sense that I think it is guaranteed (or even likely) to happen in the next two to six years.
I feel like I have a similar optimist-via-bleakness attitude towards the American populace at large. I don't think that most Americans really think much about politics, or about democracy. People on the left who take both very seriously often assume that other folks work the same way, and in my experience it just isn't true. The fascist-leaning chunk of America has gotten more politically active because fashy politicians are treating politics like it's pro-wrestling, and this is a fandom they can get into. It's no surprise that Donald Trump was the catalyst, or that their heroes are folks like Tucker Carlson, or that their rising stars are folks like former KSAZ-TV anchor Kari Lake. To presume that they're "intentionally" fascist is to presume that they've thought more about their political stances than they have: they're passionate about those stances but they're not very deep. (And they don't have to be, because that passion means they hold political power, even if you leave aside how many of them are mentally unstable and have access to guns. You don't even have to think a coup is coming to think that voter disenfranchisement mixed with anger mixed with guns will lead to escalating violence and ongoing deterioration of democracy.)
Bush believed in the pretense of American politics, at the very least; Trump didn't. Trump believes in wielding the media circus as an intentional grift; folks like MTG seem to genuinely believe the shit they say. The more they devolve, the less competent they are, but the more dangerous they become with whatever power they're given. And the more room they make for less-competent people like themselves (or worse) to acquire and wield power. The sense I get is that a lot of historical fascism has worked like this: there isn't really an ideology or a coherent plan to dismantle more democratic systems, there're just a lot of people swept up in something high-energy who face increasingly weak barriers when it comes to preventing them from wielding their collective power.
The bleak optimist in me feels like American democracy is more complex and robust than it seems, and can't be outright demolished the way that a lot of people (myself included!) fear it will be—with the flip side being, American democracy has also been profoundly undemocratic for the entirety of its existence, and that our current moment is more typical both structurally and tonally than it feels like right now. I feel like it's capable of enduring destructive idiocy for longer than the destructive idiots can keep hold of their power, even with those idiots increasingly having the power to... well, afford themselves more power.
But that doesn't change the fact that, while they possess any power, those idiots can inflict unimaginable cruelty upon others. It doesn't change the fact that we're facing a looming global crisis that will make things worse for the vast majority of humanity, and that America is a powerful enough nation that its choice of what pains to alleviate or exacerbate will wind up affecting billions of people. And it doesn't change the fact that we're still in a place where we can determine just how bad that crisis winds up being, and that every time these idiots take the reigns, the future gets incalculably worse.
In other words, you don't need to believe that the fascist resurgence in America is a new development or even that the Republicans leaning hard towards anti-democratic principles actually hold strong antidemocratic feelings to see this moment as the crisis that it is. And if all this feels like a bit of a buttress against the most black-pill version of panic that it's possible to feel right now, it's also me expressing a bit of astonishment that, even in 2022, post-Trump and post-COVID, some people can look at the current state of American politics and go: "Hey, maybe this is a good thing after all." You can be hopeful and maybe even a little grounded and still see very clearly that it is not, not, not.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 5:36 AM on October 19, 2022 [20 favorites]
I think there's a serious question about whether the devolution is in terms of evil or in terms of intelligence. Because if you look at what he actually achieved, George W. Bush remains the flat-out most destructive president of my lifetime. He was astonishingly, outrageously evil. But he was a subtle enough statesman (I hate saying that) that he was able to do it all and masquerade as a beacon of democracy in action, even though he remains the only president who literally stole an election.
The wheels are coming off, but I don't really think that America is more fascist or anti-democratic than it's ever been. What I see happening is a mixture of: the right wing is both desperate enough and devolved enough that this path it's going down is the only path it's capable of. Mitch McConnell would rather the Republicans be craftier in what they do—and his precursors thought that Mitch was worryingly obvious by comparison—but they're not capable of it anymore.
The flip side to that is, they only get away with being this crude because prior generations of Republican have damaged our systems of governance to the point where this is, in fact, possible. And they are of course seeking to damage things even more, which will in turn enable even worse people. The open question for me is whether or not their incompetence and stupidity will outpace their rate of destruction, and while I'm an optimist in the sense that I think that will happen at some point, I'm not an optimist in the sense that I think it is guaranteed (or even likely) to happen in the next two to six years.
I feel like I have a similar optimist-via-bleakness attitude towards the American populace at large. I don't think that most Americans really think much about politics, or about democracy. People on the left who take both very seriously often assume that other folks work the same way, and in my experience it just isn't true. The fascist-leaning chunk of America has gotten more politically active because fashy politicians are treating politics like it's pro-wrestling, and this is a fandom they can get into. It's no surprise that Donald Trump was the catalyst, or that their heroes are folks like Tucker Carlson, or that their rising stars are folks like former KSAZ-TV anchor Kari Lake. To presume that they're "intentionally" fascist is to presume that they've thought more about their political stances than they have: they're passionate about those stances but they're not very deep. (And they don't have to be, because that passion means they hold political power, even if you leave aside how many of them are mentally unstable and have access to guns. You don't even have to think a coup is coming to think that voter disenfranchisement mixed with anger mixed with guns will lead to escalating violence and ongoing deterioration of democracy.)
Bush believed in the pretense of American politics, at the very least; Trump didn't. Trump believes in wielding the media circus as an intentional grift; folks like MTG seem to genuinely believe the shit they say. The more they devolve, the less competent they are, but the more dangerous they become with whatever power they're given. And the more room they make for less-competent people like themselves (or worse) to acquire and wield power. The sense I get is that a lot of historical fascism has worked like this: there isn't really an ideology or a coherent plan to dismantle more democratic systems, there're just a lot of people swept up in something high-energy who face increasingly weak barriers when it comes to preventing them from wielding their collective power.
The bleak optimist in me feels like American democracy is more complex and robust than it seems, and can't be outright demolished the way that a lot of people (myself included!) fear it will be—with the flip side being, American democracy has also been profoundly undemocratic for the entirety of its existence, and that our current moment is more typical both structurally and tonally than it feels like right now. I feel like it's capable of enduring destructive idiocy for longer than the destructive idiots can keep hold of their power, even with those idiots increasingly having the power to... well, afford themselves more power.
But that doesn't change the fact that, while they possess any power, those idiots can inflict unimaginable cruelty upon others. It doesn't change the fact that we're facing a looming global crisis that will make things worse for the vast majority of humanity, and that America is a powerful enough nation that its choice of what pains to alleviate or exacerbate will wind up affecting billions of people. And it doesn't change the fact that we're still in a place where we can determine just how bad that crisis winds up being, and that every time these idiots take the reigns, the future gets incalculably worse.
In other words, you don't need to believe that the fascist resurgence in America is a new development or even that the Republicans leaning hard towards anti-democratic principles actually hold strong antidemocratic feelings to see this moment as the crisis that it is. And if all this feels like a bit of a buttress against the most black-pill version of panic that it's possible to feel right now, it's also me expressing a bit of astonishment that, even in 2022, post-Trump and post-COVID, some people can look at the current state of American politics and go: "Hey, maybe this is a good thing after all." You can be hopeful and maybe even a little grounded and still see very clearly that it is not, not, not.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 5:36 AM on October 19, 2022 [20 favorites]
To be fair, Dick Cheney was absolutely the evil force behind virtually all of the Bush II presidency; I highly recommend Barton Gellman's book Angler, which really makes clear the scope and nature of his influence. Not to say that W is a good person, but he is definitely much more in the malleable patsy mold than someone like Trump.
posted by Gadarene at 6:50 AM on October 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Gadarene at 6:50 AM on October 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
The flip side to that is, they only get away with being this crude because prior generations of Republican have damaged our systems of governance to the point where this is, in fact, possible. And they are of course seeking to damage things even more, which will in turn enable even worse people. The open question for me is whether or not their incompetence and stupidity will outpace their rate of destruction, and while I'm an optimist in the sense that I think that will happen at some point, I'm not an optimist in the sense that I think it is guaranteed (or even likely) to happen in the next two to six years.
What Lee Atwater left unspoken in his infamous Southern Strategy interview was the idea that the evolution of racial pandering is not a straight line, but a curve, perhaps a circle in the absence of actual change.
Race-based conservatism (which absolutely includes the Dixiecrats who fled the Democratic Party in the wake of the Civil Rights acts) evolved from blatant slurs and race-based appeals to, as Atwater said, some more nuanced approaches over time. In many areas, one wins more votes and corporate support via tax cuts and deregulation and economic pandering to status-quo constituencies than via explicit bigot-pandering. Sure, there have always been firebrands ala Pat Buchanan happy to wave the flag of They're Stealing From You, Whitey, but the base party had been content to deal in dog-whistles and coded meanings for the most part.
But dog-whistles only work for so long when the bigots hear the whistles but don't see any tangible movement in their direction. They hear "vote for us and we'll make your life better," except that they don't see their lives getting better no matter who's in charge.
So it reverts. Coded references begin devolving into They've Stolen America From You, Its Rightful Owners. Talk radio hosts find that they can't stand out from the other hosts without becoming more shrill, more direct, more willing to stoke those particular flames. Stephen Miller and his ilk start running nakedly racist ads on national television as shock treatment for the Republican base -- vote for us, or THEY'RE coming for you next.
Eventually, even that reaches a point where it can't win nationally. Hence the eternal push for 'states' rights,' i.e. enabling states to allow blatant discrimination and bigotry without federal oversight, and outright rigging of the systems to allow those interests to smash-and-grab when in power and block nearly every reform when they are not.
And that ends when it stops working. Stops working well enough, at least, for conservatives to drive their most blatant elements back under the bed and go back to better-coded approaches.
posted by delfin at 6:58 AM on October 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
What Lee Atwater left unspoken in his infamous Southern Strategy interview was the idea that the evolution of racial pandering is not a straight line, but a curve, perhaps a circle in the absence of actual change.
Race-based conservatism (which absolutely includes the Dixiecrats who fled the Democratic Party in the wake of the Civil Rights acts) evolved from blatant slurs and race-based appeals to, as Atwater said, some more nuanced approaches over time. In many areas, one wins more votes and corporate support via tax cuts and deregulation and economic pandering to status-quo constituencies than via explicit bigot-pandering. Sure, there have always been firebrands ala Pat Buchanan happy to wave the flag of They're Stealing From You, Whitey, but the base party had been content to deal in dog-whistles and coded meanings for the most part.
But dog-whistles only work for so long when the bigots hear the whistles but don't see any tangible movement in their direction. They hear "vote for us and we'll make your life better," except that they don't see their lives getting better no matter who's in charge.
So it reverts. Coded references begin devolving into They've Stolen America From You, Its Rightful Owners. Talk radio hosts find that they can't stand out from the other hosts without becoming more shrill, more direct, more willing to stoke those particular flames. Stephen Miller and his ilk start running nakedly racist ads on national television as shock treatment for the Republican base -- vote for us, or THEY'RE coming for you next.
Eventually, even that reaches a point where it can't win nationally. Hence the eternal push for 'states' rights,' i.e. enabling states to allow blatant discrimination and bigotry without federal oversight, and outright rigging of the systems to allow those interests to smash-and-grab when in power and block nearly every reform when they are not.
And that ends when it stops working. Stops working well enough, at least, for conservatives to drive their most blatant elements back under the bed and go back to better-coded approaches.
posted by delfin at 6:58 AM on October 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
...I don't think that most Americans really think much about politics, or about democracy. People on the left who take both very seriously often assume that other folks work the same way, and in my experience it just isn't true. The fascist-leaning chunk of America has gotten more politically active because fashy politicians are treating politics like it's pro-wrestling, and this is a fandom they can get into. ... To presume that they're "intentionally" fascist is to presume that they've thought more about their political stances than they have: they're passionate about those stances but they're not very deep.
^^^ This. Yes. Thank you.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:19 AM on October 19, 2022 [6 favorites]
^^^ This. Yes. Thank you.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:19 AM on October 19, 2022 [6 favorites]
To presume that they're "intentionally" fascist is to presume that they've thought more about their political stances than they have: they're passionate about those stances but they're not very deep.
Do not confuse being in a society which allowed for a lack of awareness with shallowness. The reality is that we live in a society in which a very specific sort of individual is defined as the "default", and being the "default" bestows power. (Ian Danskin has a good sidebar on how this works in his latest video.) Conversely, as we've begun to push back on that "default", it's forced those in It to see their political position as such for the first time, and thus you see many turning to protect that position and the power it grants.
It's also worth noting that given how much of the left belong to marginalized demographics, a lot of the hyperfocus on politics stems from the fact that they have to be aware of politics because they cannot afford to do otherwise. What's happening is that people who have traditionally had the luxury to ignore political change are finding they no longer can.
Finally, the "team sports" view of politics is an overly facile look that often ignores that people do actually choose which side they align to based on the values expressed. Part of why the GOP has doubled down on bigotry is because the party knows that the base will not follow if they move in any other direction.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:00 AM on October 19, 2022 [4 favorites]
Do not confuse being in a society which allowed for a lack of awareness with shallowness. The reality is that we live in a society in which a very specific sort of individual is defined as the "default", and being the "default" bestows power. (Ian Danskin has a good sidebar on how this works in his latest video.) Conversely, as we've begun to push back on that "default", it's forced those in It to see their political position as such for the first time, and thus you see many turning to protect that position and the power it grants.
It's also worth noting that given how much of the left belong to marginalized demographics, a lot of the hyperfocus on politics stems from the fact that they have to be aware of politics because they cannot afford to do otherwise. What's happening is that people who have traditionally had the luxury to ignore political change are finding they no longer can.
Finally, the "team sports" view of politics is an overly facile look that often ignores that people do actually choose which side they align to based on the values expressed. Part of why the GOP has doubled down on bigotry is because the party knows that the base will not follow if they move in any other direction.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:00 AM on October 19, 2022 [4 favorites]
Do not confuse being in a society which allowed for a lack of awareness with shallowness. The reality is that we live in a society in which a very specific sort of individual is defined as the "default", and being the "default" bestows power. (Ian Danskin has a good sidebar on how this works in his latest video.) Conversely, as we've begun to push back on that "default", it's forced those in It to see their political position as such for the first time, and thus you see many turning to protect that position and the power it grants.
Precisely. The average American is only political to the degree that they find themselves affected -- when they (or their family, their friends, their neighbors, the people who provide services for them, etc.) find that they're about to be subject to change, good or bad, regarding their wealth, their health, their civil rights, their jobs, their recreation, or other matters that are significantly important to them.
It requires a degree of awareness to recognize that someone who is not you is being treated differently. Awareness that said treatment is widespread, punitive, and unfair. Awareness that you have the capability to do something about it, however small that may be, even if it's simply raising your voice in protest. Awareness that you should do so. Awareness that increased diversity in your life is a good thing, not a threat. Awareness that those who claim to be acting in your interest may not be doing so.
They call it 'woke' for a reason, and many would prefer that we all remained peacefully asleep.
posted by delfin at 11:26 AM on October 19, 2022 [11 favorites]
Precisely. The average American is only political to the degree that they find themselves affected -- when they (or their family, their friends, their neighbors, the people who provide services for them, etc.) find that they're about to be subject to change, good or bad, regarding their wealth, their health, their civil rights, their jobs, their recreation, or other matters that are significantly important to them.
It requires a degree of awareness to recognize that someone who is not you is being treated differently. Awareness that said treatment is widespread, punitive, and unfair. Awareness that you have the capability to do something about it, however small that may be, even if it's simply raising your voice in protest. Awareness that you should do so. Awareness that increased diversity in your life is a good thing, not a threat. Awareness that those who claim to be acting in your interest may not be doing so.
They call it 'woke' for a reason, and many would prefer that we all remained peacefully asleep.
posted by delfin at 11:26 AM on October 19, 2022 [11 favorites]
Jeff Sharlet on the kind of excuses we'll no doubt be hearing over the next couple of years:
Whole lotta voters thinking “well I’m not a fascist but on other hand gas is a buck more than I wanna pay & I don’t know what Republicans can really do about that but ok I guess let’s give fascism a shot”posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:06 AM on October 20, 2022 [12 favorites]
Moderate Republican voters: I guess it’s bad to force women to be breeding sows but on the other hand ketchup is more expensive and hamburgers need that Heinz, so…
TERFy Democrats getting ready to vote GOP: hey, I don’t hate trans people but is genitally probing countless high school athletes really that high a price to pay for me to not have to reconsider what “feminism” actually means?
Rightwing Democrats: I support choice and Trump’s just so tacky, but these pronouns! I’m open-minded but it’s just bad grammar so I guess I’ll vote for the end of democracy.
“Centrists”: Jan 6 was horrifying but cancel culture has just gone too far—first they came for Harvey Weinstein, then they came for Louis CK—so I’m going to cast a protest vote for fascism and the obliteration of trans kids.
"I was allowed to believe things that weren’t true" is the rallying cry of a (hopefully, but depressingly might not be) a dying party.
Alas, the right-wing party are campaigning on "oh golly those leftists are so insane that I was allowed dissent thought and - if we were in power - we would not allow any dissedent"
TLDR : intolerance of intolerance
posted by revmitcz at 4:09 AM on October 22, 2022
Alas, the right-wing party are campaigning on "oh golly those leftists are so insane that I was allowed dissent thought and - if we were in power - we would not allow any dissedent"
TLDR : intolerance of intolerance
posted by revmitcz at 4:09 AM on October 22, 2022
I take some comfort from the fact that the Republicans wouldn't be going full fascist if they didn't know they have no hope of a majority otherwise, despite their structural advantages.
I don't. I see them recognizing a moment and pressing an advantage. (The advantage, of course, is a thoroughly broken system that allows massive amounts of dark money, unrestrained gerrymandering, stacked courts, etc., along with the cultural permission Trump has provided for racism and misogyny to be front and center, out loud.)
posted by LooseFilter at 8:14 AM on October 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
I don't. I see them recognizing a moment and pressing an advantage. (The advantage, of course, is a thoroughly broken system that allows massive amounts of dark money, unrestrained gerrymandering, stacked courts, etc., along with the cultural permission Trump has provided for racism and misogyny to be front and center, out loud.)
posted by LooseFilter at 8:14 AM on October 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
sgu says that yes, half the US have lost their minds... you say I dismiss voter agency. Which is it, folks?
Obedience training is the key to making sense of it. Trump worshipers never had the space to develop a personal sense of autonomy, honesty, courage, intelligence, or modesty, since childhood. They just needed a politician to shout threats at their enemies and they were sold; Trump reminds them of the dad they never rebelled against. Lack of modesty is from their imaginary elitism promised from imaginary pure truth, so they vote for arrogance as a sign of a fellow traveler. Immodest religion is not privately oriented, but a public expression everyone must follow. God makes more sense to them as a hostile meanie who likes suffering than some loving type, because that was their childhood experience. They associate freedom with what they lack, namely money and respect, so they vote against their interests by respecting power, confused by freedom of choice from oppression. The best hope the rest of us may have in a conspiratorial frame is that opposition ads quit appealing to rational arguments (which state the obvious and therefore don't assume a rational viewer), and start running ads that expose a submissive fascist's inner demons.
posted by Brian B. at 11:55 AM on October 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
Obedience training is the key to making sense of it. Trump worshipers never had the space to develop a personal sense of autonomy, honesty, courage, intelligence, or modesty, since childhood. They just needed a politician to shout threats at their enemies and they were sold; Trump reminds them of the dad they never rebelled against. Lack of modesty is from their imaginary elitism promised from imaginary pure truth, so they vote for arrogance as a sign of a fellow traveler. Immodest religion is not privately oriented, but a public expression everyone must follow. God makes more sense to them as a hostile meanie who likes suffering than some loving type, because that was their childhood experience. They associate freedom with what they lack, namely money and respect, so they vote against their interests by respecting power, confused by freedom of choice from oppression. The best hope the rest of us may have in a conspiratorial frame is that opposition ads quit appealing to rational arguments (which state the obvious and therefore don't assume a rational viewer), and start running ads that expose a submissive fascist's inner demons.
posted by Brian B. at 11:55 AM on October 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
> Obedience training is the key to making sense of it.
There are a number of reasons, including your explanation, to explain why SOME right-wingers have embraced Trumpism. But my main contention remains that it's the rigid two-party US political system that has made it possible for the Trumpists to capture the Republican party... ie half the voting population.
posted by Artful Codger at 4:18 PM on October 24, 2022
There are a number of reasons, including your explanation, to explain why SOME right-wingers have embraced Trumpism. But my main contention remains that it's the rigid two-party US political system that has made it possible for the Trumpists to capture the Republican party... ie half the voting population.
posted by Artful Codger at 4:18 PM on October 24, 2022
But my main contention remains that it's the rigid two-party US political system that has made it possible for the Trumpists to capture the Republican party... ie half the voting population.
Except that we're seeing this dynamic playing out around the world, in nations with multiparty systems. Instead, it's a pattern we've seen over and over - conservatives think they can ride the tiger, and soon find themselves at its mercy. And the reason why is because these movements are symptoms of the political strategies conservatives use to keep people in the fold.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:12 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Except that we're seeing this dynamic playing out around the world, in nations with multiparty systems. Instead, it's a pattern we've seen over and over - conservatives think they can ride the tiger, and soon find themselves at its mercy. And the reason why is because these movements are symptoms of the political strategies conservatives use to keep people in the fold.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:12 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Italy's new right-wing coalition has started fraying. It's fragile. Britain's conservatives have imploded. Yes there's been a rightward lurch in much of the world, but the multiparty democracies especially in Europe will be the first to change when the wind blows in a different direction.
posted by Artful Codger at 3:12 PM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Artful Codger at 3:12 PM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
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When they write the obituary for the American democratic experiment, I hope they include a chapter devoted to the so-called leftist media's habit of chortling into their brandy snifters while delivering pithy bon mots about politicians telling bald-faced lies. It would be so easy to just out and say "this easily-proven thing is made up, and every word out of this person's mouth is likely a lie as well." But no, instead we maintain polite decorum, so as not to ruffle any feathers, while the world burns around us.
posted by Mayor West at 6:17 AM on October 18, 2022 [117 favorites]