Gold for Whom?
December 28, 2023 9:42 PM Subscribe
The ACLU of Delaware filed a complaint arguing that too many Deaf children are being referred to Deaf schools. When the ACLU of Delaware filed a complaint against the Delaware Department of Education earlier this month, calling for the investigation into the Department's treatment of Deaf children, it raised some eyebrows. When they argued that the state was keeping Deaf students from the Least Restrictive Environment by sending them to the Deaf school, more eyebrows were raised. When they further argued that Listening and Spoken Language, a trademarked certification for oral-only education given out solely by AG Bell association, designated by some in the Deaf community as a hate group and who claim they can "make Deaf people hear", was the "gold standard" for Deaf education...well, you can imagine what happened next....
Many in the Deaf community responded, including NY Times best-selling author of Tru Biz, Sara Nović.
Nović summarized it well in their Change.org petition (which now has over 14,000 signatures):
With respect to educational settings, a common misinterpretation of the Least Restrictive Environment (LRE) under IDEA law is that deaf and disabled children must be mainstreamed unless their behavior is extremely disruptive to those around them. In reality, the mainstream environment is often extremely restrictive for deaf children, who have limited opportunities for direct communication between peers and teachers, no access to deaf peers and role models, fewer therapeutic services, and inaccessible extracurriculars.
The SLP organization Language First, made up of both Deaf and hearing professionals, further added their opinion in an open letter sharing that the ACLU's complaint was both misleading and not based in research or evidence:
Not only is there a significant lack of evidence that LSL is an effective intervention...but there is mounting evidence that providing DHH children with a natural signed language, in additional to oral language, is what positively impacts their language, cognition, socialization, and learning. Because LSL approaches do not allow for the use a signed language, they do not utilize the most current evidence to optimize language acquisition in DHH children.
The ACLU has since removed the press release from their website and are reviewing their position. A full response from the lawyers will need to wait until January 2, when they return to the office. Residents of Delaware eagerly await their response.
Many in the Deaf community responded, including NY Times best-selling author of Tru Biz, Sara Nović.
Nović summarized it well in their Change.org petition (which now has over 14,000 signatures):
With respect to educational settings, a common misinterpretation of the Least Restrictive Environment (LRE) under IDEA law is that deaf and disabled children must be mainstreamed unless their behavior is extremely disruptive to those around them. In reality, the mainstream environment is often extremely restrictive for deaf children, who have limited opportunities for direct communication between peers and teachers, no access to deaf peers and role models, fewer therapeutic services, and inaccessible extracurriculars.
The SLP organization Language First, made up of both Deaf and hearing professionals, further added their opinion in an open letter sharing that the ACLU's complaint was both misleading and not based in research or evidence:
Not only is there a significant lack of evidence that LSL is an effective intervention...but there is mounting evidence that providing DHH children with a natural signed language, in additional to oral language, is what positively impacts their language, cognition, socialization, and learning. Because LSL approaches do not allow for the use a signed language, they do not utilize the most current evidence to optimize language acquisition in DHH children.
The ACLU has since removed the press release from their website and are reviewing their position. A full response from the lawyers will need to wait until January 2, when they return to the office. Residents of Delaware eagerly await their response.
What is wrong with people?
I mean, how broken do you have to be to think that making life worse for people for whom life is already hard is the right way to go about your existence? On your deathbed, do you smile when you think of how you made sure that people who might otherwise have had a chance had it taken away from them? Does it keep you warm at night counting your ladder pulls and downward punches? Is torturing people that lost the lottery of birth something you laugh about with friends?
This behaviour is shameful and these people should be ashamed. They should also have everything taken from them and distributed amongst the people they've screwed over every step of the way.
posted by krisjohn at 11:28 PM on December 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
I mean, how broken do you have to be to think that making life worse for people for whom life is already hard is the right way to go about your existence? On your deathbed, do you smile when you think of how you made sure that people who might otherwise have had a chance had it taken away from them? Does it keep you warm at night counting your ladder pulls and downward punches? Is torturing people that lost the lottery of birth something you laugh about with friends?
This behaviour is shameful and these people should be ashamed. They should also have everything taken from them and distributed amongst the people they've screwed over every step of the way.
posted by krisjohn at 11:28 PM on December 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
"What is wrong with people?
I mean, how broken do you have to be to think that making life worse for people for whom life is already hard is the right way to go about your existence? On your deathbed, do you smile when you think of how you made sure that people who might otherwise have had a chance had it taken away from them? Does it keep you warm at night counting your ladder pulls and downward punches? Is torturing people that lost the lottery of birth something you laugh about with friends?
This behaviour is shameful and these people should be ashamed. They should also have everything taken from them and distributed amongst the people they've screwed over every step of the way."
Respectfully, as long as you assume that this is the motivation for people you disagree with, the less justice you will be able to effect.
Both sides would say this about their opponents.
Unless I'm missing some conversational irony, and that was your point?
posted by klangklangston at 12:38 AM on December 29, 2023 [17 favorites]
I mean, how broken do you have to be to think that making life worse for people for whom life is already hard is the right way to go about your existence? On your deathbed, do you smile when you think of how you made sure that people who might otherwise have had a chance had it taken away from them? Does it keep you warm at night counting your ladder pulls and downward punches? Is torturing people that lost the lottery of birth something you laugh about with friends?
This behaviour is shameful and these people should be ashamed. They should also have everything taken from them and distributed amongst the people they've screwed over every step of the way."
Respectfully, as long as you assume that this is the motivation for people you disagree with, the less justice you will be able to effect.
Both sides would say this about their opponents.
Unless I'm missing some conversational irony, and that was your point?
posted by klangklangston at 12:38 AM on December 29, 2023 [17 favorites]
I don't see how you can "both sides" this, and it's a hill I'll die on.
posted by krisjohn at 1:06 AM on December 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by krisjohn at 1:06 AM on December 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
You're missing klang's point, it's not "both-sidesism" in the sense of both sides being equally right or wrong, it's that both sides believe themselves to be the ones who are right. Nobody thinks of themselves as evil-doers, even if the rest of us would say they were; they think they're on the side of justice and we're the baddies. By casting them as Snidely Whiplash mustache-twirling villains, you're discarding any solution that would involve educating them or convincing them to stop.
posted by rifflesby at 1:30 AM on December 29, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by rifflesby at 1:30 AM on December 29, 2023 [26 favorites]
It's not my responsibility to educate someone on why they're a horrible person.
posted by krisjohn at 2:13 AM on December 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by krisjohn at 2:13 AM on December 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
People often do evil deliberately and knowingly. It's naive to assume that anyone preying on the vulnerable for profit is going to be "educated" or "convinced" to do otherwise. You don't know other peoples' morality. You don't know their minds. Their statements may or may not reflect their minds or morality.
If the thing they are doing is legal, they will probably continue doing it even if they share your morality. Don't underestimate a person's ability to rationalize their own bad behavior.
Nothing I have read indicates that AG Bell is doing anything illegal. The things being imputed to them are immoral, in my opinion, and since I don't have standing to sue I have no recourse but to shame them. SHAME ON THEM. It's bullshit, what they are (allegedly) doing.
If you disagree, go ahead and teach them to have less money i guess
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 2:16 AM on December 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
If the thing they are doing is legal, they will probably continue doing it even if they share your morality. Don't underestimate a person's ability to rationalize their own bad behavior.
Nothing I have read indicates that AG Bell is doing anything illegal. The things being imputed to them are immoral, in my opinion, and since I don't have standing to sue I have no recourse but to shame them. SHAME ON THEM. It's bullshit, what they are (allegedly) doing.
If you disagree, go ahead and teach them to have less money i guess
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 2:16 AM on December 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
It sounds like someone at the ACLU seemingly misguidedly thought it was a discrimination issue that public schools were not adequately accommodating deaf students and were instead warehousing and segregating them. Sounds like they didn't do their research but I would bet at least one deaf person in Delaware (perhaps a plaintiff) feels this way and brought this issue to the ACLU's attention. A lot of curricula is funded by right wing zealots and hate groups so I can't say I'm all that surprised there either. But if they're already reconsidering their position, sounds like the activism has caught their attention?
posted by likeatoaster at 4:20 AM on December 29, 2023 [30 favorites]
posted by likeatoaster at 4:20 AM on December 29, 2023 [30 favorites]
Is torturing people that lost the lottery of birth something you laugh about with friends?
I would like to gently push back on this concept about DHH people (with the caveat that I am hearing and may not have this fully correct... and if so I would be grateful for correction and conversation). My understanding is that within the Deaf community many do not believe that deafness is a disability or a loss.
posted by mcduff at 5:29 AM on December 29, 2023 [19 favorites]
I would like to gently push back on this concept about DHH people (with the caveat that I am hearing and may not have this fully correct... and if so I would be grateful for correction and conversation). My understanding is that within the Deaf community many do not believe that deafness is a disability or a loss.
posted by mcduff at 5:29 AM on December 29, 2023 [19 favorites]
Well if we aren't melodramatically throwing ourselves around sobbing about how horrible and why why ... is it even really a discussion? Discussions require general venting right?
Anyways, overall this seems good. ACLU took an apparently very misguided stance in the most public of ways, and many people spoke out. (Of course it's no one individual's personal responsibility to educate strangers, but it is incredibly kind and helpful when people choose to do so.) Novic's statement is really interesting & I'll wander off to read more about a few points, like that CI low rate of failure being based on implantation success only. While the Delaware ACLU obviously should have talked with more deaf people before announcing this potential lawsuit, they're paying attention to the feedback. Sure that's the least one would expect but hey. This didn't happen in a vacuum, looking at the commercial interests & ...misguided parent groups, so at least it seems the rational voices are winning out.
TL;DR: ACLU-DE fucked around and found out
posted by Baethan at 5:32 AM on December 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Anyways, overall this seems good. ACLU took an apparently very misguided stance in the most public of ways, and many people spoke out. (Of course it's no one individual's personal responsibility to educate strangers, but it is incredibly kind and helpful when people choose to do so.) Novic's statement is really interesting & I'll wander off to read more about a few points, like that CI low rate of failure being based on implantation success only. While the Delaware ACLU obviously should have talked with more deaf people before announcing this potential lawsuit, they're paying attention to the feedback. Sure that's the least one would expect but hey. This didn't happen in a vacuum, looking at the commercial interests & ...misguided parent groups, so at least it seems the rational voices are winning out.
TL;DR: ACLU-DE fucked around and found out
posted by Baethan at 5:32 AM on December 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
It sounds like someone at the ACLU seemingly misguidedly thought it was a discrimination issue that public schools were not adequately accommodating deaf students and were instead warehousing and segregating them. Sounds like they didn't do their research but I would bet at least one deaf person in Delaware (perhaps a plaintiff) feels this way and brought this issue to the ACLU's attention.
Given that the complaint relates to Deaf school children, the person in question is almost certainly the parent of a Deaf student, who may or may not be Deaf themselves.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:46 AM on December 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
Given that the complaint relates to Deaf school children, the person in question is almost certainly the parent of a Deaf student, who may or may not be Deaf themselves.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:46 AM on December 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
You're missing klang's point, it's not "both-sidesism" in the sense of both sides being equally right or wrong, it's that both sides believe themselves to be the ones who are right. Nobody thinks of themselves as evil-doers, even if the rest of us would say they were; they think they're on the side of justice and we're the baddies. By casting them as Snidely Whiplash mustache-twirling villains, you're discarding any solution that would involve educating them or convincing them to stop.
How far are you willing to extend such courtesy? Qanon folks? Vax deniers? Conversion therapy proponents? They think they're on the side of justice and we're the baddies. At some point, you gotta call a spade a spade.
posted by 2N2222 at 6:18 AM on December 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
How far are you willing to extend such courtesy? Qanon folks? Vax deniers? Conversion therapy proponents? They think they're on the side of justice and we're the baddies. At some point, you gotta call a spade a spade.
posted by 2N2222 at 6:18 AM on December 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Wow so LSL approaches give super strong "your child can be normal!" vibes. At least that's how the organization Hearing First (hmm), the Oberkotter foundation, & AG Bell make it sound.
This is from Hearing First:
"Ears are the doorway to the brain and hearing is the foundational building block for children to listen and talk, become healthy readers, and do well in school."
"You’re the most qualified person to make decisions for your baby. You’ll decide if you want your baby to listen and talk." (rather a loaded statement there)
AG Bell:
"Working globally to ensure that people who are deaf and hard of hearing can hear and talk."
Just from a quick look, it's a total rejection of sign language as a language. A denial that you can have a good, full, connected life as a DHH person without using devices to hear "normally". My god. I know sign languages aren't the best fit for every person, but calling LSL the gold standard is beyond ridiculous.
(I understand much better why one would absolutely rage at seeing this sort of worldview being touted by the ACLU-DE as anything other than "really shitty". The potential for harm to DHH children is very real. I still don't think general expressions of rage without adding to the discussion are what metafilter is for, but that might be more a metatalk topic.)
Interesting video on what cochlear implants may "sound" like from someone who is deaf on one side. Common sense cautions apply, eg the experience and usefulness of CIs vary across individuals.
posted by Baethan at 7:09 AM on December 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
This is from Hearing First:
"Ears are the doorway to the brain and hearing is the foundational building block for children to listen and talk, become healthy readers, and do well in school."
"You’re the most qualified person to make decisions for your baby. You’ll decide if you want your baby to listen and talk." (rather a loaded statement there)
AG Bell:
"Working globally to ensure that people who are deaf and hard of hearing can hear and talk."
Just from a quick look, it's a total rejection of sign language as a language. A denial that you can have a good, full, connected life as a DHH person without using devices to hear "normally". My god. I know sign languages aren't the best fit for every person, but calling LSL the gold standard is beyond ridiculous.
(I understand much better why one would absolutely rage at seeing this sort of worldview being touted by the ACLU-DE as anything other than "really shitty". The potential for harm to DHH children is very real. I still don't think general expressions of rage without adding to the discussion are what metafilter is for, but that might be more a metatalk topic.)
Interesting video on what cochlear implants may "sound" like from someone who is deaf on one side. Common sense cautions apply, eg the experience and usefulness of CIs vary across individuals.
posted by Baethan at 7:09 AM on December 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
*Disclaimer: My personal bias is for bi-bi programs, DHH children have communicative human rights to have full access to a robust and expressive language, I've already signed the Change.org petition and shared the news, etc, please don't come for me.
If you read the first link, about the details of the complaint, it seems likely that some mainstreamed DHH students had LSL services on their IEP (Individualized Education Plan) and there was a gap in services when the the single provider in the state went on leave. Given that information, it does seem likely that some parents (possibly in conjunction with the CHOICES Delaware group quoted in the article) brought the issue to ACLU-DE's attention.
CHOICES Delaware appears to be an interest group in support of a medical approach to deafness and mainstreaming DHH students whenever possible, and several axes to grind in the direction of Deaf culture. They say many incorrect things on their website (seriously a little rage-inducing), but one of the few correct statements they have, is this: If your child is going to be using ASL as a primary/essential mode of communication, then you should become as fluent as possible, as quickly as possible, in order to support your child's language development and your ability to communicate most easily with your child in the future.
The vast majority of DHH children are born to hearing parents, who likely don't know any ASL/other signed language. For some of these parents, the idea of having to gain proficiency in another, very different language is a daunting thought, as is the idea that their child will become a part of a culture that is different from the cultural backgrounds of either parent. And with universal infant hearing screenings, the path to this choice is coming upon them quite early now, even as they juggle diaper changes and toddler tantrums.
I write this out not because I support the choice to cut off language access (I really, really don't!) but because I think there are many very human reasons for a parent wanting to believe that LSL/Auditory-Verbal therapies will "work," and I'm also of the opinion that we won't be changing hearts and minds by demonizing the other side. And that's kind of important because... again, more than 90% of DHH kids are born to hearing parents.
posted by hazelscribe at 7:25 AM on December 29, 2023 [19 favorites]
If you read the first link, about the details of the complaint, it seems likely that some mainstreamed DHH students had LSL services on their IEP (Individualized Education Plan) and there was a gap in services when the the single provider in the state went on leave. Given that information, it does seem likely that some parents (possibly in conjunction with the CHOICES Delaware group quoted in the article) brought the issue to ACLU-DE's attention.
CHOICES Delaware appears to be an interest group in support of a medical approach to deafness and mainstreaming DHH students whenever possible, and several axes to grind in the direction of Deaf culture. They say many incorrect things on their website (seriously a little rage-inducing), but one of the few correct statements they have, is this: If your child is going to be using ASL as a primary/essential mode of communication, then you should become as fluent as possible, as quickly as possible, in order to support your child's language development and your ability to communicate most easily with your child in the future.
The vast majority of DHH children are born to hearing parents, who likely don't know any ASL/other signed language. For some of these parents, the idea of having to gain proficiency in another, very different language is a daunting thought, as is the idea that their child will become a part of a culture that is different from the cultural backgrounds of either parent. And with universal infant hearing screenings, the path to this choice is coming upon them quite early now, even as they juggle diaper changes and toddler tantrums.
I write this out not because I support the choice to cut off language access (I really, really don't!) but because I think there are many very human reasons for a parent wanting to believe that LSL/Auditory-Verbal therapies will "work," and I'm also of the opinion that we won't be changing hearts and minds by demonizing the other side. And that's kind of important because... again, more than 90% of DHH kids are born to hearing parents.
posted by hazelscribe at 7:25 AM on December 29, 2023 [19 favorites]
*slow whistle* For fuck's sake, ACLU, someone really did not do the research there. I.... can't actually imagine a more obvious powderkeg for anyone who has done even five minutes of research into disability culture or activism: the Deaf community is probably one of the oldest, strongest, and most tight-knit disability communities, and one that has turned out a lot of activists over the decades. And it is extremely well aware that the community strength aspect of that web comes out of the boarding schools and from choosing to look after D/deaf children, often when hearing parents won't.
Like, to the effect that ASL classes usually contain a primer on this culture and history. To the effect that anyone who touches ASL is expected to learn the basics of it. Or asks a terp! And then to argue that actually it's discrimination that an Oralist org descended from fucking Alexander Graham Bell isn't being prioritized--!
I'm going to be internally screaming about this all damn day. I think this might be the daftest disability fail I've seen in ten years, and I have seen a lot of fails.
posted by sciatrix at 7:29 AM on December 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
Like, to the effect that ASL classes usually contain a primer on this culture and history. To the effect that anyone who touches ASL is expected to learn the basics of it. Or asks a terp! And then to argue that actually it's discrimination that an Oralist org descended from fucking Alexander Graham Bell isn't being prioritized--!
I'm going to be internally screaming about this all damn day. I think this might be the daftest disability fail I've seen in ten years, and I have seen a lot of fails.
posted by sciatrix at 7:29 AM on December 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
"CHOICES Delaware (Making Language Choices Available to Delaware Families of Children with Hearing Loss)"
no doubt the most minor of their crimes against humanity but come on, that's not how acronyms work. I feel like there's a metaphor here.
In the about page, they try to fix it with "(short for Making Language CHOICES Available to Delaware Families of Children with Hearing Loss) which is still not the same as being an acronym
posted by Baethan at 7:46 AM on December 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
no doubt the most minor of their crimes against humanity but come on, that's not how acronyms work. I feel like there's a metaphor here.
In the about page, they try to fix it with "(short for Making Language CHOICES Available to Delaware Families of Children with Hearing Loss) which is still not the same as being an acronym
posted by Baethan at 7:46 AM on December 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
People denying that their deaf children are different and pushing them into the mold of 'normal'--also being lazy. Why wouldn't you want to communicate with other people like your child?
Educating
Qanon folks? Vax deniers? Conversion therapy proponents? They think they're on the side of justice and we're the baddies. At some point, you gotta call a spade a spade.
Some people just don't want to hear the other side and are not to be reasoned with.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:36 AM on December 29, 2023
Educating
Qanon folks? Vax deniers? Conversion therapy proponents? They think they're on the side of justice and we're the baddies. At some point, you gotta call a spade a spade.
Some people just don't want to hear the other side and are not to be reasoned with.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:36 AM on December 29, 2023
>Deaf community is probably one of the oldest, strongest, and most tight-knit disability communities
having a hearing impairment kinda incentivizes them to be online2, too
posted by torokunai at 8:39 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
having a hearing impairment kinda incentivizes them to be online2, too
posted by torokunai at 8:39 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I took American Sign Language years ago, and through that I got introduced to the Deaf Community. This community is a full fledged culture that has its own language, ASL. Deaf cultures in other countries have their sign language. Hearing people assume that deaf people have problems communicating. No, they do not. In their culture they communicate just fine. Do we consider people from Estonia visiting the US as disabled if they don’t speak English? There have been numerous attempts over the years to deny deaf culture and deaf language. Signing was banned between students. Signed English, an artificially created sign language that follows English grammar and vocabulary, was compulsory instead of ASL. Accessibility was improved for the deaf with Closed Captioning, etc. But once more, one group of people is forcing their view on to another group of people all under the guise of helping. And this helping never seems to include asking the other group what they would like. Does seeing some people signing together make hearing people uncomfortable? This all reminds me about how the neurodiverse are viewed. There is no fucking normal that we all have to conform to…
posted by njohnson23 at 8:55 AM on December 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 8:55 AM on December 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I write this out not because I support the choice to cut off language access (I really, really don't!) but because I think there are many very human reasons for a parent wanting to believe that LSL/Auditory-Verbal therapies will "work," and I'm also of the opinion that we won't be changing hearts and minds by demonizing the other side. And that's kind of important because... again, more than 90% of DHH kids are born to hearing parents.
I think a lot of those parents also really want to believe that cochlear implants and other technological solutions are more effective, or at least less prone to trade-offs, than they really are. I think you've written a very humane post about trying to reach out to and ingratiate parents before Oralist approaches that seem much easier for everyone come on board, even if those approaches wind up not being as helpful in practice as having access to language in other directions can be.
And I mean, my limited experience with Deafie culture is... ambivalent about hearing parents. (Not about hearing children, mind; [hearing] Children Of Deaf Adults are much less loaded and much more likely to embed in Deaf spaces of their own accord.) Culturally, there's such a strong sense of having been "thrown away" or even simply remembering that parents haven't made the effort to learn to communicate well in a way that is comfortable.
Autistic spaces are my home base, too, and I don't think it's startling that many autism communities have patterned themselves, often explicitly, after Deaf groups and activism directions; autistics often think about this as learning from our wiser older cousins. But it is always worth being aware, for communities in which children may be identified as disabled with non-disabled parents and especially when those children are identified young, that you do have to be able to have faces of the community that are friendly to bewildered, new parents with a lot of internalized or externalized ableism. And that's hard for a lot of people, especially when you also have all these rough feelings to contend with about parents that haven't treated you well in the past, or have treated you as not worth the effort.
(It's more complicated with autism of course because diagnosis is, um, less obvious than for people who are deaf or hearing-impaired, and so you also have the awkward wrinkle of parents who are also clearly autistic and think they're not--which is a very common eyeroll in my generation and younger, and has been for decades.)
In many, many ways, there are very strong parallels with transracial adoption communities, including the ways that adult adoptees interact and interface with adoptive parents.
having a hearing impairment kinda incentivizes them to be online2, too
*wishy-washy hand* Assuming they read English fluently, yeah; some Deafies don't, and ASL is not English but its own language in its own right with very different syntax, grammar, etc. (British Sign Language is also not English, and has its own different influences and syntax.) Essentially you're giving people access to language and community through ASL, ideally as early as you possibly can, and then you also learn to read English--and if you're born Deaf or you lost hearing very early on, you have to understand that "learning to read" entails learning to read a whole other language. It's as if you grew up with spoken English, but when reading came up in class, the only option to read was Mandarin, not written English. And no one is really teaching you spoken Mandarin, either. So fluency tends to be pretty variable, especially when folks can access recorded ASL media too.
posted by sciatrix at 9:35 AM on December 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
I think a lot of those parents also really want to believe that cochlear implants and other technological solutions are more effective, or at least less prone to trade-offs, than they really are. I think you've written a very humane post about trying to reach out to and ingratiate parents before Oralist approaches that seem much easier for everyone come on board, even if those approaches wind up not being as helpful in practice as having access to language in other directions can be.
And I mean, my limited experience with Deafie culture is... ambivalent about hearing parents. (Not about hearing children, mind; [hearing] Children Of Deaf Adults are much less loaded and much more likely to embed in Deaf spaces of their own accord.) Culturally, there's such a strong sense of having been "thrown away" or even simply remembering that parents haven't made the effort to learn to communicate well in a way that is comfortable.
Autistic spaces are my home base, too, and I don't think it's startling that many autism communities have patterned themselves, often explicitly, after Deaf groups and activism directions; autistics often think about this as learning from our wiser older cousins. But it is always worth being aware, for communities in which children may be identified as disabled with non-disabled parents and especially when those children are identified young, that you do have to be able to have faces of the community that are friendly to bewildered, new parents with a lot of internalized or externalized ableism. And that's hard for a lot of people, especially when you also have all these rough feelings to contend with about parents that haven't treated you well in the past, or have treated you as not worth the effort.
(It's more complicated with autism of course because diagnosis is, um, less obvious than for people who are deaf or hearing-impaired, and so you also have the awkward wrinkle of parents who are also clearly autistic and think they're not--which is a very common eyeroll in my generation and younger, and has been for decades.)
In many, many ways, there are very strong parallels with transracial adoption communities, including the ways that adult adoptees interact and interface with adoptive parents.
having a hearing impairment kinda incentivizes them to be online2, too
*wishy-washy hand* Assuming they read English fluently, yeah; some Deafies don't, and ASL is not English but its own language in its own right with very different syntax, grammar, etc. (British Sign Language is also not English, and has its own different influences and syntax.) Essentially you're giving people access to language and community through ASL, ideally as early as you possibly can, and then you also learn to read English--and if you're born Deaf or you lost hearing very early on, you have to understand that "learning to read" entails learning to read a whole other language. It's as if you grew up with spoken English, but when reading came up in class, the only option to read was Mandarin, not written English. And no one is really teaching you spoken Mandarin, either. So fluency tends to be pretty variable, especially when folks can access recorded ASL media too.
posted by sciatrix at 9:35 AM on December 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
People denying that their deaf children are different and pushing them into the mold of 'normal'--also being lazy. Why wouldn't you want to communicate with other people like your child?
Well, I can tell you what happened when my partner, who is hard of hearing, was in ASL classes and wanted me to take some too some years ago in... I think around 2018, when I was trying to move through the PhD AND coping with flooded housing AND coping with some relatively new shiny traumas AND figure out how to not collapse on the floor in a total meltdown.
Which is that I got completely overwhelmed by the thought of trying to add learning a new language onto that and went NO. NO NO NO NO NO. NO. CAN'T. NO. HARD. NO. Particularly given that I'm bad at new motor patterns and take a lot of effort to learn them, I was flooded and overwhelmed and wanted to curl up into a ball of meltdown at the thought, and my partner--whose condition is potentially degenerative and at the time was pretty sure they would eventually end up small-d deaf--was really hurt by that refusal. Recovering from that, and figuring out new ways to approach the issue, has taken a lot of time and effort. And moving out of the situation I was living in has been an enormous part of that.
The thing about accommodations is that they don't exist in a vacuum: there is a reason that accessibility in the ADA is framed such that the obligation rests heaviest on the shoulders of the people with the most resources. I can understand parents not having those resources immediately, and I can imagine a kneejerk, reflexive "can't do that" coming from parents, too. It's really hard when there isn't support to do these things to find an endless well of energy, focus, and attention to build new skills sometimes.
Which is not a reason not to try, of course. But... well, compassion and bandwidth are finite. Wouldn't it be a better world if there was funding and support for parents to try to drop some other obligations to meet these?
posted by sciatrix at 9:46 AM on December 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
Well, I can tell you what happened when my partner, who is hard of hearing, was in ASL classes and wanted me to take some too some years ago in... I think around 2018, when I was trying to move through the PhD AND coping with flooded housing AND coping with some relatively new shiny traumas AND figure out how to not collapse on the floor in a total meltdown.
Which is that I got completely overwhelmed by the thought of trying to add learning a new language onto that and went NO. NO NO NO NO NO. NO. CAN'T. NO. HARD. NO. Particularly given that I'm bad at new motor patterns and take a lot of effort to learn them, I was flooded and overwhelmed and wanted to curl up into a ball of meltdown at the thought, and my partner--whose condition is potentially degenerative and at the time was pretty sure they would eventually end up small-d deaf--was really hurt by that refusal. Recovering from that, and figuring out new ways to approach the issue, has taken a lot of time and effort. And moving out of the situation I was living in has been an enormous part of that.
The thing about accommodations is that they don't exist in a vacuum: there is a reason that accessibility in the ADA is framed such that the obligation rests heaviest on the shoulders of the people with the most resources. I can understand parents not having those resources immediately, and I can imagine a kneejerk, reflexive "can't do that" coming from parents, too. It's really hard when there isn't support to do these things to find an endless well of energy, focus, and attention to build new skills sometimes.
Which is not a reason not to try, of course. But... well, compassion and bandwidth are finite. Wouldn't it be a better world if there was funding and support for parents to try to drop some other obligations to meet these?
posted by sciatrix at 9:46 AM on December 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
Am not deaf. Had I a deaf child, I'd do whatever I could to enable them to hear, but would also make sure they learned sign language and would do it along with them. Would not segregate them, but would take them to events/camps where they could interface with other hearing-impaired kids. Gotta live in both worlds, there.
within the Deaf community many do not believe that deafness is a disability or a loss.
That one is real hard to agree with.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:46 AM on December 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
within the Deaf community many do not believe that deafness is a disability or a loss.
That one is real hard to agree with.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:46 AM on December 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Can't & won't judge since I come from total ignorance on this, but yeah. I intentionally chose 'impairment' instead of 'disability' in my above but it's the same thing in the end still.
From my life experience this would be like foreigners living in Japan and encouraging each other to not learn how to at least read Japanese.
I guess with smart phones etc. the younger generations have had more access and exposure to non-ASL resources. Not quite as simple as severely visually-impaired people listening to the radio, but getting there.
posted by torokunai at 10:57 AM on December 29, 2023
From my life experience this would be like foreigners living in Japan and encouraging each other to not learn how to at least read Japanese.
I guess with smart phones etc. the younger generations have had more access and exposure to non-ASL resources. Not quite as simple as severely visually-impaired people listening to the radio, but getting there.
posted by torokunai at 10:57 AM on December 29, 2023
I feel like I should clarify that I am not d/Deaf but:
Whether or not deafness is a disability is a hotly debated topic in the Deaf community, so I think.... if at all possible... it would be kinder to not publicly weigh-in on that question unless you are personally impacted, in recognition of the d/Deaf/HoH MeFis who may be reading your comment.
As a counter-hypothetical-- if we had a naturally multilingual society where everyone also was fluent in ASL, and hotels and public buildings and whatnot all had strobing/vibrating alarms, all applicable media had CCs... how much would lack of hearing be an impairment, rather than a difference? Is every difference that benefits from an accommodation a disability?
posted by hazelscribe at 11:44 AM on December 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
Whether or not deafness is a disability is a hotly debated topic in the Deaf community, so I think.... if at all possible... it would be kinder to not publicly weigh-in on that question unless you are personally impacted, in recognition of the d/Deaf/HoH MeFis who may be reading your comment.
As a counter-hypothetical-- if we had a naturally multilingual society where everyone also was fluent in ASL, and hotels and public buildings and whatnot all had strobing/vibrating alarms, all applicable media had CCs... how much would lack of hearing be an impairment, rather than a difference? Is every difference that benefits from an accommodation a disability?
posted by hazelscribe at 11:44 AM on December 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
@mcduff; by the time I'm talking about ladder pulls and losing the lottery of birth, I'm talking less about a specific challenge someone might face and more just listing negative actions of broken human monsters.
I guess I snapped yesterday. To see what would be an obvious path to kindness so clearly ignored in favour of making people's lives worse got to me more than I had the capacity to cope with. My mother has remained friends with a parent from when I was in primary school who has a deaf son with additional challenges. The stories I hear of his and the family's ongoing treatment by uncaring, even callous, "officials" must have stuck with me more than I thought. You can only hear repeating stories about someone refusing to help until they can speak with the deaf person over the phone, or hospitals that will neither allow a family member to be with him, nor provide an interpreter, for so long before a little rage permanently settles in.
posted by krisjohn at 2:51 PM on December 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I guess I snapped yesterday. To see what would be an obvious path to kindness so clearly ignored in favour of making people's lives worse got to me more than I had the capacity to cope with. My mother has remained friends with a parent from when I was in primary school who has a deaf son with additional challenges. The stories I hear of his and the family's ongoing treatment by uncaring, even callous, "officials" must have stuck with me more than I thought. You can only hear repeating stories about someone refusing to help until they can speak with the deaf person over the phone, or hospitals that will neither allow a family member to be with him, nor provide an interpreter, for so long before a little rage permanently settles in.
posted by krisjohn at 2:51 PM on December 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Whether or not deafness is a disability is a hotly debated topic in the Deaf community, so I think.... if at all possible... it would be kinder to not publicly weigh-in on that question unless you are personally impacted, in recognition of the d/Deaf/HoH MeFis who may be reading your comment.
Thoroughly seconded. You do see the same debate in autism circles and for many of the same reasons. I can tell you that external opinions about whether certain struggles are inherent to being part of that community or a function of society being assholes are not helpful: rejecting the notion that the problem is you rather than the system is a major driving factor, so emphasizing how many problems D/deaf people cope with usually generates much more heat than light.
posted by sciatrix at 3:39 PM on December 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Thoroughly seconded. You do see the same debate in autism circles and for many of the same reasons. I can tell you that external opinions about whether certain struggles are inherent to being part of that community or a function of society being assholes are not helpful: rejecting the notion that the problem is you rather than the system is a major driving factor, so emphasizing how many problems D/deaf people cope with usually generates much more heat than light.
posted by sciatrix at 3:39 PM on December 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Sound of Metal was partially about the conflict between embracing life as a Deaf person vs seeking a controversial medical intervention to stay on the fringes of the hearing world. And it had excellent sound design.
posted by subdee at 6:33 PM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by subdee at 6:33 PM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
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