Firm develops jet fuel made entirely from human poo
January 4, 2024 8:02 AM Subscribe
A new aviation company has developed a type of jet fuel made entirely from human sewage.
Chemists at a lab in Gloucestershire have turned the waste into kerosene.
James Hygate, Firefly Green Fuels CEO, said: "We wanted to find a really low-value feedstock that was highly abundant. And of course poo is abundant."
Independent tests by international aviation regulators found it was nearly identical to standard fossil jet fuel.
Firefly's team worked with Cranfield University to examine the fuel's life cycle carbon impact. It concluded that Firefly's fuel has a 90% lower carbon footprint than standard jet fuel.
That sound is headline writers rolling up their sleeves
posted by gottabefunky at 8:15 AM on January 4 [45 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 8:15 AM on January 4 [45 favorites]
shit hot
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:17 AM on January 4 [4 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:17 AM on January 4 [4 favorites]
If I'm planning a trip sufficiently into the future, can I save up my excrement and apply it toward my flight either as a cost reduction or a carbon offset? Would the airlines provide bags and boxes for this?
posted by hippybear at 8:18 AM on January 4 [11 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 8:18 AM on January 4 [11 favorites]
I don't know enough about the organic chemistry to evaluate how realistic this fuel is to produce, but as someone who studies the downstream (marine) impacts of sewage, anything to reduce our releases of that material sounds ideal to me
posted by dantheclamman at 8:19 AM on January 4 [23 favorites]
posted by dantheclamman at 8:19 AM on January 4 [23 favorites]
This is for real? No-one's being faecetious?
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:22 AM on January 4 [51 favorites]
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:22 AM on January 4 [51 favorites]
Added bonus: with the high levels of pharmaceuticals in sewage, this could actually make chemtrails a thing!
posted by condour75 at 8:27 AM on January 4 [50 favorites]
posted by condour75 at 8:27 AM on January 4 [50 favorites]
I'm excited to one day be able to look up and see shitstains in the sky.
posted by srboisvert at 8:27 AM on January 4 [2 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 8:27 AM on January 4 [2 favorites]
Per hippybear, the in-flight lavatory will be nicknamed the “offset box”
posted by gottabefunky at 8:27 AM on January 4 [10 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 8:27 AM on January 4 [10 favorites]
Synthetic Aviation Fuel (SAF) is how the air industry intends to go entirely closed-loop for carbon emissions. The idea is simple, don't burn previously sequestered carbon, that is petroleum or natural gas, for fuel. Make fuel from carbon already in the surface carbon-cycle and reuse it. No new carbon is emitted to the atmosphere, no increase in carbon dioxide, no effect on climate change. But they continue to use the same fuel infrastructure for all air traffic, saving a huge amount infrastructure.
The only problem with SAF is that it's really, really expensive right now. Conventional Jet-A is under $3USD, while as of late 2023, SAFs were about $6.50USD. https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/us-sustainable-aviation-fuel-production-target-faces-cost-margin-challenges-2023-11-01/
The feedstock for any fuel can be just about anything, given the right chemistry and enough energy (from solar, wind, etc...). I've been following one company that a former student went to that's going from atmospheric CO2 directly to SAF. Using poop is kind of neat, but that's more style points than anything really.
posted by bonehead at 8:30 AM on January 4 [16 favorites]
The only problem with SAF is that it's really, really expensive right now. Conventional Jet-A is under $3USD, while as of late 2023, SAFs were about $6.50USD. https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/us-sustainable-aviation-fuel-production-target-faces-cost-margin-challenges-2023-11-01/
The feedstock for any fuel can be just about anything, given the right chemistry and enough energy (from solar, wind, etc...). I've been following one company that a former student went to that's going from atmospheric CO2 directly to SAF. Using poop is kind of neat, but that's more style points than anything really.
posted by bonehead at 8:30 AM on January 4 [16 favorites]
yyyeessss but putting burned jet fuel in the high atmosphere is very bad no matter how it's sourced
ok i know carbon aviation isn't going away and this is an improvement but still let's not lose sight of the fact that burned avgas has a much higher climate impact than just about any other kind of burned carbon
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:38 AM on January 4 [14 favorites]
ok i know carbon aviation isn't going away and this is an improvement but still let's not lose sight of the fact that burned avgas has a much higher climate impact than just about any other kind of burned carbon
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:38 AM on January 4 [14 favorites]
Well at least Taylor can afford SAF while she’s designing some kind of replacement jet-boat?
posted by rikschell at 8:43 AM on January 4
posted by rikschell at 8:43 AM on January 4
I assume the processing + high heat of burning the fuel would kill any pathogens...right?
posted by knotty knots at 8:44 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]
posted by knotty knots at 8:44 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]
Don’t like airliners dumping excess fuel before landing? Try this one weird trick for a better experience.
posted by cupcakeninja at 8:47 AM on January 4 [4 favorites]
posted by cupcakeninja at 8:47 AM on January 4 [4 favorites]
We thought the recent changes were bad enough, but Delta miles program users are going to go absolutely crazy when Delta add in the “volume of excrement produced” requirement as well.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:52 AM on January 4 [4 favorites]
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:52 AM on January 4 [4 favorites]
In other news, the Dave Matthews Band tour bus has been acquired by ConocoPhillips
posted by credulous at 8:52 AM on January 4 [16 favorites]
posted by credulous at 8:52 AM on January 4 [16 favorites]
I assume this will eventually be like solar panels, where you can generate not only enough to power your own home, but perhaps enough to contribute something back to the Poo Grid.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:55 AM on January 4 [2 favorites]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:55 AM on January 4 [2 favorites]
It would probably make more sense to turn human excrement back into food through the composting process. Doesn't require any fancy technology either-- just a few basic materials.
posted by drstrangelove at 8:57 AM on January 4 [3 favorites]
posted by drstrangelove at 8:57 AM on January 4 [3 favorites]
Definitely seems a better alternative jet fuel than what Chevron is making:
The Environmental Protection Agency recently gave a Chevron refinery the green light to create fuel from discarded plastics as part of a “climate-friendly” initiative to boost alternatives to petroleum. But, according to agency records obtained by ProPublica and The Guardian, the production of one of the fuels could emit air pollution that is so toxic, 1 out of 4 people exposed to it over a lifetime could get cancer.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:10 AM on January 4 [8 favorites]
The Environmental Protection Agency recently gave a Chevron refinery the green light to create fuel from discarded plastics as part of a “climate-friendly” initiative to boost alternatives to petroleum. But, according to agency records obtained by ProPublica and The Guardian, the production of one of the fuels could emit air pollution that is so toxic, 1 out of 4 people exposed to it over a lifetime could get cancer.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:10 AM on January 4 [8 favorites]
It would probably make more sense to turn human excrement back into food through the composting process. Doesn't require any fancy technology either-- just a few basic materials.
Do you want prions? Because that’s how you get prions. Unfortunately, any kind of nice efficient process that doesn’t have a massively energy-intensive thoroughly-destroy-all-the-proteins-even-the-stubborn-ones step, is going to eventually start giving you prion diseases.
posted by notoriety public at 9:12 AM on January 4 [10 favorites]
Do you want prions? Because that’s how you get prions. Unfortunately, any kind of nice efficient process that doesn’t have a massively energy-intensive thoroughly-destroy-all-the-proteins-even-the-stubborn-ones step, is going to eventually start giving you prion diseases.
posted by notoriety public at 9:12 AM on January 4 [10 favorites]
The only problem with SAF is that it's really, really expensive right now. Conventional Jet-A is under $3USD, while as of late 2023, SAFs were about $6.50USD. https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/us-sustainable-aviation-fuel-production-target-faces-cost-margin-challenges-2023-11-01/
A gallon of gasoline emits about 9 kg of CO2.
The above cost premium is 3.5$ per gallon of SAF, or 2.6 kg of CO2 per $, or 390$/tonne of CO2.
Assuming a 5% Wright factor (every doubling of production reduces costs by 5%), and at least 10 doublings to cover the entire industry (ie, total volume of Synfuel ever created to date is 0.1% what is needed to fuel air transport for a reasonable period of time), 40% reduction in that price can be expected. That brings the premium down to about 1$ per 9 kg, or 111$/tonne of CO2.
And 111$/tonne of CO2 is cheap.
20%-40% of aviation passenger costs are currently fuel. Using 40% and having SynFuel be 50% more expensive means that aircraft travel only gets 20% more expensive from this cost.
There appears to be challenges, but in a CO2-zero future commercial aviation doesn't really look like it is in trouble.
posted by NotAYakk at 9:17 AM on January 4 [4 favorites]
A gallon of gasoline emits about 9 kg of CO2.
The above cost premium is 3.5$ per gallon of SAF, or 2.6 kg of CO2 per $, or 390$/tonne of CO2.
Assuming a 5% Wright factor (every doubling of production reduces costs by 5%), and at least 10 doublings to cover the entire industry (ie, total volume of Synfuel ever created to date is 0.1% what is needed to fuel air transport for a reasonable period of time), 40% reduction in that price can be expected. That brings the premium down to about 1$ per 9 kg, or 111$/tonne of CO2.
And 111$/tonne of CO2 is cheap.
20%-40% of aviation passenger costs are currently fuel. Using 40% and having SynFuel be 50% more expensive means that aircraft travel only gets 20% more expensive from this cost.
There appears to be challenges, but in a CO2-zero future commercial aviation doesn't really look like it is in trouble.
posted by NotAYakk at 9:17 AM on January 4 [4 favorites]
So…. does this work realtime? Inflight fueling by the passengers?
posted by uncle harold at 9:24 AM on January 4 [3 favorites]
posted by uncle harold at 9:24 AM on January 4 [3 favorites]
So…. does this work realtime? Inflight fueling by the passengers?
"This is your captain -- thank you for your patience, but we will be in the holding pattern just a little while longer, so in the meantime the flight attendants will be distributing free chili and Taco Bell to help keep us in the air"
posted by AzraelBrown at 9:31 AM on January 4 [10 favorites]
"This is your captain -- thank you for your patience, but we will be in the holding pattern just a little while longer, so in the meantime the flight attendants will be distributing free chili and Taco Bell to help keep us in the air"
posted by AzraelBrown at 9:31 AM on January 4 [10 favorites]
I have a much more efficient way to make airlines greener: use higher taxes and fees to raise the cost of a flight. People fly too much.
posted by pracowity at 9:42 AM on January 4 [17 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 9:42 AM on January 4 [17 favorites]
No peer reviewed paper? No lifecycle analysis? No EROI?
Meh. But lolz shits.
posted by lalochezia at 10:01 AM on January 4 [3 favorites]
Meh. But lolz shits.
posted by lalochezia at 10:01 AM on January 4 [3 favorites]
I have a much more efficient way to make airlines greener: use higher taxes and fees to raise the cost of a flight. People fly too much.
"too much" by what measure?
Too much ... given the current CO2 costs of flight? If we reduce the CO2 costs of flight, then doesn't the "too much" threshold change? And that is what this is doing; reducing the CO2 costs.
Until we get to carbon zero, and we stop underpricing CO2 emissions, I agree, most CO2 expensive stuff is done "too much". But to me, the problem isn't flying, the problem is the CO2 emissions.
posted by NotAYakk at 10:05 AM on January 4 [10 favorites]
"too much" by what measure?
Too much ... given the current CO2 costs of flight? If we reduce the CO2 costs of flight, then doesn't the "too much" threshold change? And that is what this is doing; reducing the CO2 costs.
Until we get to carbon zero, and we stop underpricing CO2 emissions, I agree, most CO2 expensive stuff is done "too much". But to me, the problem isn't flying, the problem is the CO2 emissions.
posted by NotAYakk at 10:05 AM on January 4 [10 favorites]
Do you want prions? Because that’s how you get prions. Unfortunately, any kind of nice efficient process that doesn’t have a massively energy-intensive thoroughly-destroy-all-the-proteins-even-the-stubborn-ones step, is going to eventually start giving you prion diseases.
Oh yeah, because wasting diseases are so common in human feces. What next? Tall tales about heavy metals in backyard humanure composting bins?
posted by drstrangelove at 10:06 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]
Oh yeah, because wasting diseases are so common in human feces. What next? Tall tales about heavy metals in backyard humanure composting bins?
posted by drstrangelove at 10:06 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]
I have also seen SAF to be produced by Sugar Cane Bagasse--I'm just unsure of the digestion process.
I imagine these refineries would still produce PM and NOX pollution, although the levels would only be of concern in areas with a lot of air pollution currently--unfortunately, sugar cane areas have a lot of air pollution already, because Ag is not regulated by the Clean Air Act. So although the supply chain for bagasse makes sense, the politics of air pollution don't.
I would be a bit concerned about the solid wastes produced by the refinery -- what is the percent waste or bagasse left over? I assume hope / that it is small enough, especially in regards to human waste, which starts off heavy and wet. you really don't want a process that produces heavy waste or a large percent waste, which would obviously cut into margins.
posted by eustatic at 10:07 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]
I imagine these refineries would still produce PM and NOX pollution, although the levels would only be of concern in areas with a lot of air pollution currently--unfortunately, sugar cane areas have a lot of air pollution already, because Ag is not regulated by the Clean Air Act. So although the supply chain for bagasse makes sense, the politics of air pollution don't.
I would be a bit concerned about the solid wastes produced by the refinery -- what is the percent waste or bagasse left over? I assume hope / that it is small enough, especially in regards to human waste, which starts off heavy and wet. you really don't want a process that produces heavy waste or a large percent waste, which would obviously cut into margins.
posted by eustatic at 10:07 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]
Sorry, but I'm saving my excrement to dump on Donald Trump's grave when that day comes. So they're going to have to look elsewhere to fuel their jets.
posted by Naberius at 10:25 AM on January 4 [3 favorites]
posted by Naberius at 10:25 AM on January 4 [3 favorites]
This is where I wittily work the word bullshit into a sentence to simultaneously disparage frequent frolicking by plane while also appreciating the value of the shit of a bull.
I am imagining fields of private jets growing where once there were pineapples in Hawaii and bananas in Guatemala and Honduras. Jet airplanes: now part of the modern life cycle of soil.
posted by aniola at 10:28 AM on January 4 [3 favorites]
I am imagining fields of private jets growing where once there were pineapples in Hawaii and bananas in Guatemala and Honduras. Jet airplanes: now part of the modern life cycle of soil.
posted by aniola at 10:28 AM on January 4 [3 favorites]
Now do automotive fuel. Because someone out there has a sound powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
posted by toodleydoodley at 10:32 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]
posted by toodleydoodley at 10:32 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]
To fly a passenger jet from London to New York would need the annual sewage of 10,000 people. And another 10,000 to come back.
So with 500 people on a flight, that means if we save and process all the sewage then everyone can go on one return flight every 40 years.
posted by Lanark at 10:34 AM on January 4 [2 favorites]
So with 500 people on a flight, that means if we save and process all the sewage then everyone can go on one return flight every 40 years.
posted by Lanark at 10:34 AM on January 4 [2 favorites]
Taylor Swift could power her private jet with her own poo!
Not to mention that Elon Musk has an abundant fuel source coming out of both ends.
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:36 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]
Not to mention that Elon Musk has an abundant fuel source coming out of both ends.
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:36 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]
srboisvert: "I'm excited to one day be able to look up and see shitstains in the sky."
You can do this now, depending on which shitstain is currently riding in their private jet over your house
posted by caution live frogs at 10:44 AM on January 4
You can do this now, depending on which shitstain is currently riding in their private jet over your house
posted by caution live frogs at 10:44 AM on January 4
That's a major plot point of Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome.
posted by eye of newt at 10:47 AM on January 4
posted by eye of newt at 10:47 AM on January 4
Who run gates 13 through 23 ?
posted by MonsieurPEB at 11:00 AM on January 4 [5 favorites]
posted by MonsieurPEB at 11:00 AM on January 4 [5 favorites]
Do you want prions? Because that’s how you get prions. Unfortunately, any kind of nice efficient process that doesn’t have a massively energy-intensive thoroughly-destroy-all-the-proteins-even-the-stubborn-ones step, is going to eventually start giving you prion diseases.
The concerns about prions and compost is from proposals to compost carcasses, or parts of carcasses, rather than burn them or place in lined landfills. Even then, it's not a major risk, but still not something to be casual about. Composting poop doesn't present that risk, and spreading of biosolids is a standard agricultural practice.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:01 AM on January 4 [10 favorites]
The concerns about prions and compost is from proposals to compost carcasses, or parts of carcasses, rather than burn them or place in lined landfills. Even then, it's not a major risk, but still not something to be casual about. Composting poop doesn't present that risk, and spreading of biosolids is a standard agricultural practice.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:01 AM on January 4 [10 favorites]
I have a much more efficient way to make airlines greener: use higher taxes and fees to raise the cost of a flight. People fly too much.--pracowity
Heck, just pass a carbon tax so the costs of oil consumption include all the costs of environmental damage and cleanup--the classic 'clean up your own mess' philosophy that capitalism, especially the fossil fuel industry, puts so much effort into avoiding.
If fact, President Jimmy Carter was a very early carbon tax promoter, and was heavily attacked for it, which is why the most straightforward approach is so often avoided by politicians in the US.
posted by eye of newt at 11:05 AM on January 4 [9 favorites]
Heck, just pass a carbon tax so the costs of oil consumption include all the costs of environmental damage and cleanup--the classic 'clean up your own mess' philosophy that capitalism, especially the fossil fuel industry, puts so much effort into avoiding.
If fact, President Jimmy Carter was a very early carbon tax promoter, and was heavily attacked for it, which is why the most straightforward approach is so often avoided by politicians in the US.
posted by eye of newt at 11:05 AM on January 4 [9 favorites]
The concerns about prions and compost is from proposals to compost carcasses, or parts of carcasses, rather than burn them or place in lined landfills. Even then, it's not a major risk, but still not something to be casual about. Composting poop doesn't present that risk, and spreading of biosolids is a standard agricultural practice.
Yes, this. And don't eat brains.
posted by aniola at 11:08 AM on January 4 [5 favorites]
Yes, this. And don't eat brains.
posted by aniola at 11:08 AM on January 4 [5 favorites]
Do you want prions? Because that’s how you get prions. Unfortunately, any kind of nice efficient process that doesn’t have a massively energy-intensive thoroughly-destroy-all-the-proteins-even-the-stubborn-ones step, is going to eventually start giving you prion diseases.
The exposure is already there. My municipality irrigates pastures and golf courses with treated effluent today. And there isn't any extraordinary treatment. It would be counterproductive if there was.
So with 500 people on a flight, that means if we save and process all the sewage then everyone can go on one return flight every 40 years.
I went.looking for average flights per year per person and the US is at 2.7 though the vast.majority of those flights are much shorted than transatlantic.
However Ireland clocks in at 34.5 which means Irish people are getting on a plane every 11 days and I begin to suspect something else is being measured.
posted by Mitheral at 11:11 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]
The exposure is already there. My municipality irrigates pastures and golf courses with treated effluent today. And there isn't any extraordinary treatment. It would be counterproductive if there was.
So with 500 people on a flight, that means if we save and process all the sewage then everyone can go on one return flight every 40 years.
I went.looking for average flights per year per person and the US is at 2.7 though the vast.majority of those flights are much shorted than transatlantic.
However Ireland clocks in at 34.5 which means Irish people are getting on a plane every 11 days and I begin to suspect something else is being measured.
posted by Mitheral at 11:11 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]
When the humans are far from the ag fields, it can make a lot of sense to ferment off the energy (CH4, probably ammonia) and use it there. Then you have less weight when returning the non-atmospheric nutrients (P, K, maybe Ca, probably lots of others) to agriculture.
If you can make av fuel out of it there’s a *lot* of other fuel you can make.
posted by clew at 11:16 AM on January 4
If you can make av fuel out of it there’s a *lot* of other fuel you can make.
posted by clew at 11:16 AM on January 4
this could actually make chemtrails a thing!
Chemtails have been a thing at least since nanoparticle cerium oxide combustion enhancers started being added to jet fuels more than a decade ago.
A fairly recent study found cerium oxide in the placentas of London mothers.
posted by jamjam at 11:20 AM on January 4 [2 favorites]
Chemtails have been a thing at least since nanoparticle cerium oxide combustion enhancers started being added to jet fuels more than a decade ago.
A fairly recent study found cerium oxide in the placentas of London mothers.
posted by jamjam at 11:20 AM on January 4 [2 favorites]
Because that’s how you get prions.
What?! No. It isn't. We're literally doing this in Washington.
Where does that idea even come from? Why do people just make up random FUD?
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:26 AM on January 4 [9 favorites]
What?! No. It isn't. We're literally doing this in Washington.
Where does that idea even come from? Why do people just make up random FUD?
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:26 AM on January 4 [9 favorites]
Umm, can we all agree, or maybe most of us, that prions and chemtrails have no direct relationship to the topic of the post? Maybe a very indirect relationship, which is enough for some people passionate about a subject to bring it up.
Maybe we could set up a 'Things loosely related to human sewage jet fuel that people are passionate about' Metatalk and move these discussions there.
posted by eye of newt at 11:36 AM on January 4 [4 favorites]
Maybe we could set up a 'Things loosely related to human sewage jet fuel that people are passionate about' Metatalk and move these discussions there.
posted by eye of newt at 11:36 AM on January 4 [4 favorites]
However Ireland clocks in at 34.5 which means Irish people are getting on a plane every 11 days and I begin to suspect something else is being measured.
It's the number of passengers by nation of carrier. So Irish carriers (i.e., Ryanair) carry 34.5 passengers per person in Ireland per year, not 34.5 trips per Irish person per year. Obviously many of the people carried might be Irish but the majority are probably not.
posted by axiom at 11:40 AM on January 4 [3 favorites]
It's the number of passengers by nation of carrier. So Irish carriers (i.e., Ryanair) carry 34.5 passengers per person in Ireland per year, not 34.5 trips per Irish person per year. Obviously many of the people carried might be Irish but the majority are probably not.
posted by axiom at 11:40 AM on January 4 [3 favorites]
I think 'chemtrails' are highly relevant because of the significant levels of heavy metal contamination of sewage; we already try to remediate that, but a whole 'nother level might be required if we’re breathing the combustion products.
posted by jamjam at 11:43 AM on January 4
posted by jamjam at 11:43 AM on January 4
"Chemtrails" generally refers to a woo conspiracy theory that government jets are flying around spreading mind-control chemicals over the populace, not something simple and obvious like pollution. The comment was a joke.
posted by LionIndex at 11:48 AM on January 4 [9 favorites]
posted by LionIndex at 11:48 AM on January 4 [9 favorites]
Maybe we could set up a 'Things loosely related to human sewage jet fuel that people are passionate about' Metatalk and move these discussions there.
Fine as long as the poop jokes stay.
posted by cupcakeninja at 11:52 AM on January 4 [2 favorites]
Fine as long as the poop jokes stay.
posted by cupcakeninja at 11:52 AM on January 4 [2 favorites]
Talk about getting high on your own farts.
posted by Roentgen at 12:01 PM on January 4 [2 favorites]
posted by Roentgen at 12:01 PM on January 4 [2 favorites]
Gives a whole new meaning to "explosive diarrhea".
posted by cnidaria at 12:20 PM on January 4 [2 favorites]
posted by cnidaria at 12:20 PM on January 4 [2 favorites]
"Chemtrails" generally refers to a woo conspiracy theory that government jets are flying around spreading mind-control chemicals over the populace, not something simple and obvious like pollution. The comment was a joke.
I have yet to see a form of pollution that was simple and obvious. For example, consider the history of leaded fuels in the US, which is particularly relevant here, because last I heard, leaded fuel is still legal and widely used in prop planes.
Conspiracy theories and jokes are central features of all political discourse and policy discussion in the US, not dismissable side issues.
posted by jamjam at 12:21 PM on January 4
I have yet to see a form of pollution that was simple and obvious. For example, consider the history of leaded fuels in the US, which is particularly relevant here, because last I heard, leaded fuel is still legal and widely used in prop planes.
Conspiracy theories and jokes are central features of all political discourse and policy discussion in the US, not dismissable side issues.
posted by jamjam at 12:21 PM on January 4
My son is working on his aviation degree at a college that is experimenting with the unleaded avgas (UL94). Things were off to a good start but they're seeing an increase in engine fouling and manifold damage. Program is currently on hold.
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:24 PM on January 4 [3 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:24 PM on January 4 [3 favorites]
so will Musk be starting up "X-crement" ?
posted by MikeHoegeman at 3:00 PM on January 4
posted by MikeHoegeman at 3:00 PM on January 4
Jet fuel and avgas are entirely different, and kindof complementary things. "Avgas" nowadays means 100LL (LL standing for "Low Lead", which is, well... historically accurate I guess?), that most (technically not all) piston-engine aircraft run on. These are not the airliners the overwhelming majority of people fly on, but smaller, low-capacity, "general aviation" (GA) planes.
It is absolutely unconscionable that 100LL is still a thing*. The environmental impact is horrendous, mostly because of the lead emissions and partly due to NOx and VOCs. But again, that is not the fuel we're talking about today. Poo-derived fuel will not help with avgas for small piston craft.
The overwhelmingly predominant component of airliner emissions is the carbon dioxide. Yes, there's other stuff, but comparatively, it's negligible, especially broken down to the passenger mile. The carbon footprint, however, is pretty bad. That's what jet fuel made from poop is hoping to alleviate, but... breathless press releases seldom turn into anything beneficial.
*I'm sorry avgas pilots, but I'd rather you have a 500 hour TBO than let you continue to poison the rest of us. Buy the mogas STC if one exists for your plane. Use a borescope. Quit poisoning the air. Or don't fly.
posted by tigrrrlily at 3:25 PM on January 4 [10 favorites]
It is absolutely unconscionable that 100LL is still a thing*. The environmental impact is horrendous, mostly because of the lead emissions and partly due to NOx and VOCs. But again, that is not the fuel we're talking about today. Poo-derived fuel will not help with avgas for small piston craft.
The overwhelmingly predominant component of airliner emissions is the carbon dioxide. Yes, there's other stuff, but comparatively, it's negligible, especially broken down to the passenger mile. The carbon footprint, however, is pretty bad. That's what jet fuel made from poop is hoping to alleviate, but... breathless press releases seldom turn into anything beneficial.
*I'm sorry avgas pilots, but I'd rather you have a 500 hour TBO than let you continue to poison the rest of us. Buy the mogas STC if one exists for your plane. Use a borescope. Quit poisoning the air. Or don't fly.
posted by tigrrrlily at 3:25 PM on January 4 [10 favorites]
Hankey Airlines, with nonstop service to South Park daily.
posted by waving at 3:46 PM on January 4 [1 favorite]
posted by waving at 3:46 PM on January 4 [1 favorite]
It would probably make more sense to turn human excrement back into food through the composting process. Doesn't require any fancy technology either-- just a few basic materials.
This is indeed already common in wastewater plants. Sewage is filtered and treated such that the water can be re-used (or released into rivers etc), leaving behind the organic sludge, which is usually then used as agricultural fertilizer.
However, there is growing concern about PFAS - 'forever chemicals' - such as teflon - that aren't removed by many wastewater plants, so they then re-enter the water and food cycle (for us, livestock and wildlife), and repeat. Suspected effects of higher concentrations of PFAS on humans are cancer, liver effects, kidney effects, effects on development and reproduction, growing evidence for effects on neurodevelopment, and growing evidence for effects on type 2 diabetes. Obviously the best approach would be to stop using them in the first place, but that would cost money...
Or there's the UK approach i.e. whenever there's rain, the water companies just dump raw sewage straight into rivers and the sea in vast quantities because they took the money for upgrades and spent it on billions in dividends for their private equity owners instead. You really don't want to go swimming when there's been a storm.
So finding another practical use for the stuff that also cuts down on flight fossil emissions could be quite good news!
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 4:38 PM on January 4 [3 favorites]
This is indeed already common in wastewater plants. Sewage is filtered and treated such that the water can be re-used (or released into rivers etc), leaving behind the organic sludge, which is usually then used as agricultural fertilizer.
However, there is growing concern about PFAS - 'forever chemicals' - such as teflon - that aren't removed by many wastewater plants, so they then re-enter the water and food cycle (for us, livestock and wildlife), and repeat. Suspected effects of higher concentrations of PFAS on humans are cancer, liver effects, kidney effects, effects on development and reproduction, growing evidence for effects on neurodevelopment, and growing evidence for effects on type 2 diabetes. Obviously the best approach would be to stop using them in the first place, but that would cost money...
Or there's the UK approach i.e. whenever there's rain, the water companies just dump raw sewage straight into rivers and the sea in vast quantities because they took the money for upgrades and spent it on billions in dividends for their private equity owners instead. You really don't want to go swimming when there's been a storm.
So finding another practical use for the stuff that also cuts down on flight fossil emissions could be quite good news!
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 4:38 PM on January 4 [3 favorites]
Something about this conversation has me wondering about those podcast countertop composting machines, Lomi I think they're called? Can you put your own poop in those?
It won't come out as jet fuel, but in a household setting that's for the best truly.
posted by hippybear at 4:50 PM on January 4
It won't come out as jet fuel, but in a household setting that's for the best truly.
posted by hippybear at 4:50 PM on January 4
I'M RICH!
posted by Flunkie at 7:39 PM on January 4 [1 favorite]
posted by Flunkie at 7:39 PM on January 4 [1 favorite]
Can you put your own poop in those?....in a household setting
Maybe, but do we want to keep de-incentivizing the usual childbearing?
/s
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:45 PM on January 4
Maybe, but do we want to keep de-incentivizing the usual childbearing?
/s
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:45 PM on January 4
Can you put your own poop in those?....in a household setting
Maybe, but do we want to keep de-incentivizing the usual childbearing?
/s
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:45 PM on January 4
I keep trying to parse this. I think there's a joke in there? Maybe explain it to me because I'm dying to understand this humor that I simply do not grasp.
I will say, in counterpoint, that insofar as I understand the reports and complaints of many parents of children up until the diaper years end -- the opportunity to do something productive with their poop might be welcome.
posted by hippybear at 8:16 PM on January 4
Maybe, but do we want to keep de-incentivizing the usual childbearing?
/s
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:45 PM on January 4
I keep trying to parse this. I think there's a joke in there? Maybe explain it to me because I'm dying to understand this humor that I simply do not grasp.
I will say, in counterpoint, that insofar as I understand the reports and complaints of many parents of children up until the diaper years end -- the opportunity to do something productive with their poop might be welcome.
posted by hippybear at 8:16 PM on January 4
People tend to inflict their own damage on their children. Sorry if you find that hard to grasp.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:23 PM on January 4
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:23 PM on January 4
> let's not lose sight of the fact that burned avgas has a much higher climate impact than just about any other kind of burned carbon
Do you mean that running a gas turbine at ground level has a lower climate impact than a turbofan in the stratosphere? Can you say more about that, please? (I only learned about methane from melting permafrost and deep sea "ice" in the last few years, so I'm behind on climate change accelerators)
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 9:43 PM on January 4
Do you mean that running a gas turbine at ground level has a lower climate impact than a turbofan in the stratosphere? Can you say more about that, please? (I only learned about methane from melting permafrost and deep sea "ice" in the last few years, so I'm behind on climate change accelerators)
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 9:43 PM on January 4
Can you put your own poop in those?....in a household setting
snuffleupagus:
Maybe, but do we want to keep de-incentivizing the usual childbearing?
/s
...
People tend to inflict their own damage on their children. Sorry if you find that hard to grasp.
Maybe I'm just dense but I am totally missing what you're trying to say in your first comment, and cannot figure out from context how that connects to next comment about damaging children, snuffleupagus.
posted by LizBoBiz at 9:59 PM on January 4 [3 favorites]
snuffleupagus:
Maybe, but do we want to keep de-incentivizing the usual childbearing?
/s
...
People tend to inflict their own damage on their children. Sorry if you find that hard to grasp.
Maybe I'm just dense but I am totally missing what you're trying to say in your first comment, and cannot figure out from context how that connects to next comment about damaging children, snuffleupagus.
posted by LizBoBiz at 9:59 PM on January 4 [3 favorites]
I have worked in the alternatives fuels/energy space for a decade and a half and one of the first things I learned is you can turn nearly ANYTHING into a fuel, but as noted above there is a question on EROI/Lifecyle c02 as well as cost and scalability. not sure where this poo-fuel fits in, but I do enjoy the jokes.
Ironically a lot of the "biofuels" are a result of industrial agriculture. Biodeisel and corn-Ethanol could be a FPP on their own.
A lot of "renewable" natural gas (bio-methane) used is transportation comes from animal waste- Mostly dairy manure and some big pig farms. There are some digesters of municipal green waster, as well as landfill gas. Some of this is getting made into hydrogen now too.
Bio-Jet/SAG "Sustainable aviation Fuel" is made form FOG-Fats Oils Greases. The worlds' largest producer is Nestle in Singapore who uses fish guts from throughout Southeast Asia, some beef and mutton tallow from AU/NZ, and some palm oil too. SAF requires hydrogen to treat the FOG. From what I understand we will never had enough waste oils to support a large portion of jet fuel demand.
There are some projects to make hydrogen and jet fuel from woody biomass/ forest residuals. This has an added benefit of making a market for getting excess fire-fuel out of western forests. From a circular economy perspective, I love the idea of power our fire-fighting planes and helicopters with fuel that was made from a process that is reducing fire risk int he first place.
posted by CostcoCultist at 10:41 PM on January 4 [8 favorites]
Ironically a lot of the "biofuels" are a result of industrial agriculture. Biodeisel and corn-Ethanol could be a FPP on their own.
A lot of "renewable" natural gas (bio-methane) used is transportation comes from animal waste- Mostly dairy manure and some big pig farms. There are some digesters of municipal green waster, as well as landfill gas. Some of this is getting made into hydrogen now too.
Bio-Jet/SAG "Sustainable aviation Fuel" is made form FOG-Fats Oils Greases. The worlds' largest producer is Nestle in Singapore who uses fish guts from throughout Southeast Asia, some beef and mutton tallow from AU/NZ, and some palm oil too. SAF requires hydrogen to treat the FOG. From what I understand we will never had enough waste oils to support a large portion of jet fuel demand.
There are some projects to make hydrogen and jet fuel from woody biomass/ forest residuals. This has an added benefit of making a market for getting excess fire-fuel out of western forests. From a circular economy perspective, I love the idea of power our fire-fighting planes and helicopters with fuel that was made from a process that is reducing fire risk int he first place.
posted by CostcoCultist at 10:41 PM on January 4 [8 favorites]
Our local wastewater treatment plant (one of the fanciest in the US) does methane generation from biosolids. The methane reactors are the things that look like onions in the picture at the bottom of the page. From a climate perspective, methane generation from biosolids or in landfills has real advantages as a biofuel, given that the work is done by methanogenic archaens just doing what they do when given the right conditions, versus a lot of synthetic biofuels that require additional chemical and energy inputs that may complicate the carbon footprint.
posted by hydropsyche at 7:12 AM on January 5 [2 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 7:12 AM on January 5 [2 favorites]
Great news for Ryan Air. They've been a shit airline for years
posted by terrancemiles at 12:19 PM on January 5
posted by terrancemiles at 12:19 PM on January 5
People fly too much.
People barely fly at all. Only ~5% of people fly in a given year. Maybe 1 in 6 people has ever been in an aircraft.
Commercial air travel is still in its infancy. The industry expects to quadruple in size by 2050, and to do so almost entirely with conventional jet aircraft. Hydrogen and other technologies will be in the early stages of commercialization by 2050.
So-called “sustainable” aviation fuels cannot make up for the carbon intensity and all the other environmental impacts of burning massive amounts of fuel in the stratosphere. The industry must be reigned in.
posted by Headfullofair at 12:47 PM on January 5
People barely fly at all. Only ~5% of people fly in a given year. Maybe 1 in 6 people has ever been in an aircraft.
Commercial air travel is still in its infancy. The industry expects to quadruple in size by 2050, and to do so almost entirely with conventional jet aircraft. Hydrogen and other technologies will be in the early stages of commercialization by 2050.
So-called “sustainable” aviation fuels cannot make up for the carbon intensity and all the other environmental impacts of burning massive amounts of fuel in the stratosphere. The industry must be reigned in.
posted by Headfullofair at 12:47 PM on January 5
Not all SAFs require biological feedstock. The company I alluded to above Carbon Engineering is doing direct air capture of CO2 to synthetic fuels, using only water are electricity as other inputs. The electrictiy they use is hydroelectric generated. That jar of clear kerosene the former student of mine is holding was made that way. Interestingly it's essentially pure straight-chain normal alkanes so it's about the cleanest fuel imaginable. They're currently building a their first plant in Merrit BC to start small-scale production at commercial scale. They expect to be operational in 2025.
I've worked with biofeuls of varios kinds for nearly 20 years. Most of them are econmically infeasible, are essentially agricultural subsidy programs or require "waste" inputs that can be supplied in less than 100th of the demand of the demand. Not this stuff.
posted by bonehead at 2:44 PM on January 5 [2 favorites]
I've worked with biofeuls of varios kinds for nearly 20 years. Most of them are econmically infeasible, are essentially agricultural subsidy programs or require "waste" inputs that can be supplied in less than 100th of the demand of the demand. Not this stuff.
posted by bonehead at 2:44 PM on January 5 [2 favorites]
This is for real? No-one's being faecetious?
Are you asking if this is a shitpost?
posted by Night_owl at 7:26 AM on January 6
Are you asking if this is a shitpost?
posted by Night_owl at 7:26 AM on January 6
72 comments in and no one has mentioned the airlines' pooints clubs.
So I did it.
posted by JoeXIII007 at 8:59 PM on January 6
So I did it.
posted by JoeXIII007 at 8:59 PM on January 6
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posted by rikschell at 8:14 AM on January 4 [6 favorites]