If you like it, don't put a ring on it.
January 17, 2024 5:50 PM Subscribe
For older women with money, it’s yes to love but ‘I don’t’ to marriage. Money is, of course, only one of many considerations. But for many, the answer is clear: Date, fall in love, even live together. But make it legal? No thank you.
Thanks for including the gift link to the article!
I'm not a woman, and I'm not single, but I've thought about this a lot, especially watching friends and coworkers in recent years. I have a lot of trouble imagining ever remarrying in the co-mingled assets kind of way ever again. Dating or cohabitating, sure. Marriage with sideboards like pre-nups, maybe? But co-mingling, that just seems so complicated and increasingly risky once you are even a bit older.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:08 PM on January 17 [2 favorites]
I'm not a woman, and I'm not single, but I've thought about this a lot, especially watching friends and coworkers in recent years. I have a lot of trouble imagining ever remarrying in the co-mingled assets kind of way ever again. Dating or cohabitating, sure. Marriage with sideboards like pre-nups, maybe? But co-mingling, that just seems so complicated and increasingly risky once you are even a bit older.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:08 PM on January 17 [2 favorites]
Many of the benefits of traditional marriage involve children — once those are not a consideration the picture changes considerably for both men and women. And now that many women no longer need it for financial security this seems like a logical next step.
It’s also a delayed consequence of the movement towards women’s financial independence that got its legs last century — a model of what it means to be an old woman is aging out.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:29 PM on January 17 [15 favorites]
It’s also a delayed consequence of the movement towards women’s financial independence that got its legs last century — a model of what it means to be an old woman is aging out.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:29 PM on January 17 [15 favorites]
Ain't nobody want this fat middle-aged ace broad. But if someone were to... yeah, no, I don't want another wedding or another marriage. Financial and caregiving issues aside, and the article is quite detailed on both, I don't think I have enough trust in myself for that. I lost way more than I ought to have the first time around. Shunning the fire, thanks all the same.
posted by humbug at 6:38 PM on January 17 [11 favorites]
posted by humbug at 6:38 PM on January 17 [11 favorites]
A young friend with a good job in Manhattan said she was SARAH: "single and rich and happy." It made a big impression on me at the time, as my wife and I were the first of our friends to be married.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:55 PM on January 17 [24 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 6:55 PM on January 17 [24 favorites]
being middle aged with no kids and never been married has not aged well.
posted by MonsieurPEB at 7:07 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
posted by MonsieurPEB at 7:07 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
being middle aged with no kids and never been married has not aged well.
Speak for yourself.
posted by praemunire at 7:19 PM on January 17 [93 favorites]
Speak for yourself.
posted by praemunire at 7:19 PM on January 17 [93 favorites]
being middle aged with no kids and never been married has not aged well.
posted by MonsieurPEB
posted by phunniemee at 7:25 PM on January 17 [18 favorites]
posted by MonsieurPEB
posted by phunniemee at 7:25 PM on January 17 [18 favorites]
Many of the benefits of traditional marriage involve children — once those are not a consideration the picture changes considerably for both men and women. And now that many women no longer need it for financial security this seems like a logical next step.
This can make sense even for women with children. Years after my Mom's divorce, she finally found a keeper. Stayed together the rest of her life. Wasn't rich, but wanted to make sure her kids got what was coming to them. So no marriage. Definitely made settling her estate easier.
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 7:50 PM on January 17 [9 favorites]
This can make sense even for women with children. Years after my Mom's divorce, she finally found a keeper. Stayed together the rest of her life. Wasn't rich, but wanted to make sure her kids got what was coming to them. So no marriage. Definitely made settling her estate easier.
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 7:50 PM on January 17 [9 favorites]
Both of the men I would have joyfully married took a pass on me. (In one case that was probably best, but not the other.) What can I say, I took the hint.
Maybe some of the women saying "no" to marriage today were also told "no" themselves in the past, and finally just said "well, okay then".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:50 PM on January 17 [26 favorites]
Maybe some of the women saying "no" to marriage today were also told "no" themselves in the past, and finally just said "well, okay then".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:50 PM on January 17 [26 favorites]
The comment by @MonsierPEB is just awful.
I beg all involved to leave the comment there so that all the world can see this man's bigotry.
posted by falsedmitri at 9:07 PM on January 17 [15 favorites]
I beg all involved to leave the comment there so that all the world can see this man's bigotry.
posted by falsedmitri at 9:07 PM on January 17 [15 favorites]
The comment by @MonsierPEB is just awful.
I beg all involved to leave the comment there so that all the world can see this man's bigotry.
"Bigotry" seems harsh, but I agree that it should remain in the discussion as a counterpoint. It's true that, statistically, men fare much better than women in marriage. I can see how one might have that point of view. And it's lovely to see all the other points of view from women who know what's best for their own lives.
posted by knotty knots at 9:12 PM on January 17 [4 favorites]
I beg all involved to leave the comment there so that all the world can see this man's bigotry.
"Bigotry" seems harsh, but I agree that it should remain in the discussion as a counterpoint. It's true that, statistically, men fare much better than women in marriage. I can see how one might have that point of view. And it's lovely to see all the other points of view from women who know what's best for their own lives.
posted by knotty knots at 9:12 PM on January 17 [4 favorites]
I was sitting with a friend recently, in the aftermath of the marriage-ending conversation that everyone knew was coming, but still hurts to go finally go through. And when we'd passed the worst of the anger and tears and started talking about the future, I reminded her exactly how delighted vampy she got some years back about the joys of "dating a man with his own house."
She was early to homeownership, so she moved pretty directly from dating people who were living with family or roommates to dating people who moved in with her. The live-in relationships got pretty difficult at the end. We're a bit younger than the women in this article, but I think she'd be happy being an early adopter of this trend (I know I am, anyway). It'd be nice to see her enjoying a good long stretch of dating men with their own houses.
posted by EvaDestruction at 9:43 PM on January 17 [6 favorites]
She was early to homeownership, so she moved pretty directly from dating people who were living with family or roommates to dating people who moved in with her. The live-in relationships got pretty difficult at the end. We're a bit younger than the women in this article, but I think she'd be happy being an early adopter of this trend (I know I am, anyway). It'd be nice to see her enjoying a good long stretch of dating men with their own houses.
posted by EvaDestruction at 9:43 PM on January 17 [6 favorites]
The comment by @MonsierPEB is just awful.
I beg all involved to leave the comment there so that all the world can see this man's bigotry.
I have the feeling that I’m missing something here. If I’m not then a) we don’t know the gender of the poster and b) the comment seems out of place enough that I suspect some clarification would help.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:51 PM on January 17 [7 favorites]
I beg all involved to leave the comment there so that all the world can see this man's bigotry.
I have the feeling that I’m missing something here. If I’m not then a) we don’t know the gender of the poster and b) the comment seems out of place enough that I suspect some clarification would help.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:51 PM on January 17 [7 favorites]
Oh hey, it me. Current guy is definitely not ready for remarriage, and I don't see much need. He's got 4 grown kids, I've got one almost adult, our resources after death are largely spoken for, and that's fine.
But if this works out we would like to buy a house together and I'm not sure how that works as unmarrieds.
I still have a dream of buying adjoining duplexes so we keep our own spaces but see each other all the time.
posted by emjaybee at 9:55 PM on January 17 [20 favorites]
But if this works out we would like to buy a house together and I'm not sure how that works as unmarrieds.
I still have a dream of buying adjoining duplexes so we keep our own spaces but see each other all the time.
posted by emjaybee at 9:55 PM on January 17 [20 favorites]
My mom, who was quite happy as unmarried partner with her guy for years, finally got married for the legal parts - being able to visit each other in the hospital or be consulted in the other's care as "family" and things like that.
Now she's divorced, because the guy started sliding almost right away into treating her like an entitled rude tourist treats a housekeeper, whle contributing nothing but his gracious presence (in her house). Something about being legally married I guess told him he didn't have to try any more.
posted by ctmf at 10:44 PM on January 17 [24 favorites]
Now she's divorced, because the guy started sliding almost right away into treating her like an entitled rude tourist treats a housekeeper, whle contributing nothing but his gracious presence (in her house). Something about being legally married I guess told him he didn't have to try any more.
posted by ctmf at 10:44 PM on January 17 [24 favorites]
I don’t know, something about going to law school makes me feel like you can protect all your assets for your children through gift and life estates and prenups and wills and not living in them as marital homes or commingling? So I definitely don’t feel this way. I would get married again, I would just get a prenup first to ensure that I was protected and he was protected and all of our kids were protected and then I would offer to pay for time for him to consult a lawyer of his choice so it wasn’t uneven.
Marriage means a lot more to me than the money, but I also recognize I’m saying that from the privilege of a long term relationship with someone I’m desperately in love with and who is very much similarly in love with me and all of our kids like each other. Not everyone has that situation.
posted by corb at 10:48 PM on January 17 [9 favorites]
Marriage means a lot more to me than the money, but I also recognize I’m saying that from the privilege of a long term relationship with someone I’m desperately in love with and who is very much similarly in love with me and all of our kids like each other. Not everyone has that situation.
posted by corb at 10:48 PM on January 17 [9 favorites]
Also like: there is no way you can get the protection against testimony of legal spousehood like getting married! Doesn’t anyone want to commit crimes anymore? Where’s the American can-do spirit?
posted by corb at 10:50 PM on January 17 [63 favorites]
posted by corb at 10:50 PM on January 17 [63 favorites]
“be married do crimes” just doesn’t hit the same though
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 3:08 AM on January 18 [26 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 3:08 AM on January 18 [26 favorites]
The last twenty years of my mother's life, she had a boyfriend who she called her "travel companion" but didn't want to get married. She didn't want to give up her home of 40 years and the small town she lived in for 60 years. And neither did he, about 90 minutes away in another state. I can understand that. That was the main reason, they were both very settled. But there was also inheritance considerations.
posted by Miss Cellania at 3:21 AM on January 18 [6 favorites]
posted by Miss Cellania at 3:21 AM on January 18 [6 favorites]
As my grandma used to say about her senior suitors later in life: "They're just looking for a nurse with a purse."
My father and his third wife married when they were both in their 70s. She was a renowned Canadian painter of means while he was an admired and semi-famous artist who was often in debt. They were together for a few years and while she had paid off most of his debts at that point, I think she took a look at his spending and finally divorced him to preserve her financial situation (and good on her!). Otherwise they seemed quite happy together, so it's a shame he couldn't rein himself in and live the rest of his life happily with her.
As I approach middle age, I am quite happy to see women my age and older just living their lives differently from how my Mom was expected to. Hell, once my Mom and Dad were divorced and estranged, I was proud of her deciding she just wan't interested in men, period.
posted by Captaintripps at 4:07 AM on January 18 [9 favorites]
My father and his third wife married when they were both in their 70s. She was a renowned Canadian painter of means while he was an admired and semi-famous artist who was often in debt. They were together for a few years and while she had paid off most of his debts at that point, I think she took a look at his spending and finally divorced him to preserve her financial situation (and good on her!). Otherwise they seemed quite happy together, so it's a shame he couldn't rein himself in and live the rest of his life happily with her.
As I approach middle age, I am quite happy to see women my age and older just living their lives differently from how my Mom was expected to. Hell, once my Mom and Dad were divorced and estranged, I was proud of her deciding she just wan't interested in men, period.
posted by Captaintripps at 4:07 AM on January 18 [9 favorites]
I'm someone who never expected to be married--most of my relationships weren't healthy or great--and when I did, I was pleasantly surprised. I lucked out in getting a partner that loves me despite my flaws (note: it's me saying I have flaws) and I love him for who he is. But if he hadn't come along, I suspect I would still be single. I mean, I don't want kids, never have, so it would have probably been a dealbreaker at some point for someone. I didn't mind being single, and my best friend is all the world is single. She's very much someone who is fiercely independent and well-off because of her job; I admire the hell out of her.
posted by Kitteh at 5:11 AM on January 18 [5 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 5:11 AM on January 18 [5 favorites]
Huh. I assumed MonsieurPEB was being self-deprecating?
posted by humbug at 5:19 AM on January 18 [34 favorites]
posted by humbug at 5:19 AM on January 18 [34 favorites]
Maybe some of the women saying "no" to marriage today were also told "no" themselves in the past, and finally just said "well, okay then".
On the other hand I have to assume there are more people like me out there.
Folks who, even as children, would make an excuse and run to the bathroom and hide when the other girls in class were playing MASH, because even the play pretend game of planning an entirely hypothetical make believe marriage, wedding, and children filled me with so much anxiety and dread that I couldn't even handle masking along for a couple minutes.
posted by phunniemee at 5:26 AM on January 18 [5 favorites]
On the other hand I have to assume there are more people like me out there.
Folks who, even as children, would make an excuse and run to the bathroom and hide when the other girls in class were playing MASH, because even the play pretend game of planning an entirely hypothetical make believe marriage, wedding, and children filled me with so much anxiety and dread that I couldn't even handle masking along for a couple minutes.
posted by phunniemee at 5:26 AM on January 18 [5 favorites]
There's also the fact that in many countries getting married means that you lose some of or all government entitlements to the Aged Care Pension, Disability Pension, subsidised healthcare etc (because your spouse's income and assets count against means testing) and that this issue disproportionately affects women.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 5:28 AM on January 18 [16 favorites]
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 5:28 AM on January 18 [16 favorites]
“be married do crimes” just doesn’t hit the same though
I dunno, I kind of want to live in the alternate reality where social conservatives, watching in horror as marriage rates continue to decline and realizing that they can't un-ring the bell of financial independence for women, are forced to get creative with their appeals to traditional institutions like marriage.
While we're writing fan-fiction about political parties not staying in their lanes, I'd also like it if the Dems would take up a new approach to debt forgiveness: Jesus was explicitly against all forms of usury, so the only way to stay within the teachings of Christ is to reduce the interest rate of all extant student loans to 0%.
posted by Mayor West at 5:50 AM on January 18 [7 favorites]
I dunno, I kind of want to live in the alternate reality where social conservatives, watching in horror as marriage rates continue to decline and realizing that they can't un-ring the bell of financial independence for women, are forced to get creative with their appeals to traditional institutions like marriage.
While we're writing fan-fiction about political parties not staying in their lanes, I'd also like it if the Dems would take up a new approach to debt forgiveness: Jesus was explicitly against all forms of usury, so the only way to stay within the teachings of Christ is to reduce the interest rate of all extant student loans to 0%.
posted by Mayor West at 5:50 AM on January 18 [7 favorites]
If a married USian ends up needing long-term care, spousal assets can be wiped out so it's definitely worthwhile to seek help to plan carefully and make sure you won't lose everything.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 5:50 AM on January 18 [10 favorites]
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 5:50 AM on January 18 [10 favorites]
Having kids and getting citizenship are the only two good remaining practical reasons to get married, IMO. Maybe health insurance in some cases.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:54 AM on January 18 [3 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:54 AM on January 18 [3 favorites]
Nah, there's loads more. Hospital visitation rights, prison visitation rights, inheritance rights, pension benefit concerns, and next-of-kin status for emergency medical decisions, as a few examples.
Of course, there are plenty of people for whom the potential drawbacks outweigh the benefits.
posted by kyrademon at 6:07 AM on January 18 [18 favorites]
Of course, there are plenty of people for whom the potential drawbacks outweigh the benefits.
posted by kyrademon at 6:07 AM on January 18 [18 favorites]
I kind of want to live in the alternate reality where social conservatives… are forced to get creative with their appeals to traditional institutions like marriage.
Broadcast:
A woman in a pinstriped suit steps into the frame, walls full of books behind her. She spreads her hands and looks sympathetically at the camera. “Are you feeling hounded by the state for things they want to call ‘crimes’? Never sure quite where to turn and who you can talk to, in case they’re compelled to testify against you?”
The woman sits down. “More and more hardworking Americans just like you have been taking advantage of the ‘spousal testimonial privilege exception’. Did you know that getting married offers you a ready made confidante that can’t be forced by prosecutors to testify against you?”
A number flashes on the screen. “Call our counselors at Marriage For Freedom now to find out how YOU can stick it to those nosy cops!”
A disclaimer is read very fast as a voiceover: “The above does not constitute legal advice and does not create an attorney client relationship. Marriage For Freedom is a political action fund and its counselors are not licensed attorneys in the state of *”
posted by corb at 6:18 AM on January 18 [14 favorites]
Broadcast:
A woman in a pinstriped suit steps into the frame, walls full of books behind her. She spreads her hands and looks sympathetically at the camera. “Are you feeling hounded by the state for things they want to call ‘crimes’? Never sure quite where to turn and who you can talk to, in case they’re compelled to testify against you?”
The woman sits down. “More and more hardworking Americans just like you have been taking advantage of the ‘spousal testimonial privilege exception’. Did you know that getting married offers you a ready made confidante that can’t be forced by prosecutors to testify against you?”
A number flashes on the screen. “Call our counselors at Marriage For Freedom now to find out how YOU can stick it to those nosy cops!”
A disclaimer is read very fast as a voiceover: “The above does not constitute legal advice and does not create an attorney client relationship. Marriage For Freedom is a political action fund and its counselors are not licensed attorneys in the state of *”
posted by corb at 6:18 AM on January 18 [14 favorites]
It's true that, statistically, men fare much better than women in marriage.
I'm not sure what you're referring to, but here's one data point: self-reported happiness by sex, marital status, and parenthood. It's messy, and of course shows correlation, not causation, but married people are happier than unmarried, and married women are happier than married men, but unmarried women are also happier than unmarried men, so the happiness gap (married vs unmarried) for men is smaller than for women.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:24 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure what you're referring to, but here's one data point: self-reported happiness by sex, marital status, and parenthood. It's messy, and of course shows correlation, not causation, but married people are happier than unmarried, and married women are happier than married men, but unmarried women are also happier than unmarried men, so the happiness gap (married vs unmarried) for men is smaller than for women.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:24 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
I still have a dream of buying adjoining duplexes so we keep our own spaces but see each other all the time.
A long time ago I was dating someone for whom that exact scenario was her dream. At the time it sounded stupid to me, but now that honestly sounds kind of ideal. Like, maybe even some kind of place structured a bit like some of the graduate housing was at the university I went to, where there were private areas plus some shared space. So like duplexes, but that open onto a really nice living room/entertaining space for when you want to host people together?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:26 AM on January 18 [12 favorites]
A long time ago I was dating someone for whom that exact scenario was her dream. At the time it sounded stupid to me, but now that honestly sounds kind of ideal. Like, maybe even some kind of place structured a bit like some of the graduate housing was at the university I went to, where there were private areas plus some shared space. So like duplexes, but that open onto a really nice living room/entertaining space for when you want to host people together?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:26 AM on January 18 [12 favorites]
being middle aged with no kids and never been married has not aged well.
Maybe some of the women saying "no" to marriage today were also told "no" themselves in the past, and finally just said "well, okay then".
***laughs in SARAH***
posted by CoffeeHikeNapWine at 6:41 AM on January 18 [7 favorites]
Maybe some of the women saying "no" to marriage today were also told "no" themselves in the past, and finally just said "well, okay then".
***laughs in SARAH***
posted by CoffeeHikeNapWine at 6:41 AM on January 18 [7 favorites]
I have a lot of trouble imagining ever remarrying in the co-mingled assets kind of way ever again. Dating or cohabitating, sure.
Double check your local laws. Where I live, after 3 years of co-habitation it's considered a common law marriage…with the same financial obligations if you break up.
posted by brachiopod at 7:17 AM on January 18 [8 favorites]
Double check your local laws. Where I live, after 3 years of co-habitation it's considered a common law marriage…with the same financial obligations if you break up.
posted by brachiopod at 7:17 AM on January 18 [8 favorites]
Like, maybe even some kind of place structured a bit like some of the graduate housing was at the university I went to, where there were private areas plus some shared space. So like duplexes, but that open onto a really nice living room/entertaining space for when you want to host people together?
I always thought if I had a lot of money, I would build a house with wings and each wing would have bedrooms and a kitchen and a family room, and then in between the wings would be a shared section that had, like, the nice living room and the formal dining room on ground level with guest rooms or offices upstairs and a shared gym and media room and catering kitchen underground so that my family could all live together without living together.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:21 AM on January 18 [8 favorites]
I always thought if I had a lot of money, I would build a house with wings and each wing would have bedrooms and a kitchen and a family room, and then in between the wings would be a shared section that had, like, the nice living room and the formal dining room on ground level with guest rooms or offices upstairs and a shared gym and media room and catering kitchen underground so that my family could all live together without living together.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:21 AM on January 18 [8 favorites]
Huh. I assumed MonsieurPEB was being self-deprecating?
Same. I don't mind saying it, for myself. I am single, childless, unmarried. It fucking sucks a lot of the time. I ended a 12-year relationship a couple years ago, for what it's worth. But a companion to just talk about your day with, to take out the dog once in a while, to run to the pharmacy when you're sick, to share financial burdens, to have a shared history!... sounds really nice. And it is really hard for me sometimes when people talk about how lucky they are they found the right person, or are celebrating their 25th wedding anniversary with their best friend, or benefitting from shared finances. All of it.
I'm not dead yet and will go looking again. But I don't think it makes any sense to jump on someone who may be reporting their own reality.
I'm very happy for those who are happy with their decision, but it's not one or the other. For some people it's great! For others, it's a lot of financial and emotional strain that a partner would lessen. Obviously for many people, marriage fucking sucks. So what do you know? There are all kinds of realities! That one of them is that older single, childless women can be happy? Hooray! And I am grateful I am able to manage on my own, and I realize how very lucky I am to be living in a country where I have the freedom to do that, but that doesn't mean it is my preference.
And here is where I admit I did not rtfa. But I probably will.
posted by Glinn at 7:24 AM on January 18 [38 favorites]
Same. I don't mind saying it, for myself. I am single, childless, unmarried. It fucking sucks a lot of the time. I ended a 12-year relationship a couple years ago, for what it's worth. But a companion to just talk about your day with, to take out the dog once in a while, to run to the pharmacy when you're sick, to share financial burdens, to have a shared history!... sounds really nice. And it is really hard for me sometimes when people talk about how lucky they are they found the right person, or are celebrating their 25th wedding anniversary with their best friend, or benefitting from shared finances. All of it.
I'm not dead yet and will go looking again. But I don't think it makes any sense to jump on someone who may be reporting their own reality.
I'm very happy for those who are happy with their decision, but it's not one or the other. For some people it's great! For others, it's a lot of financial and emotional strain that a partner would lessen. Obviously for many people, marriage fucking sucks. So what do you know? There are all kinds of realities! That one of them is that older single, childless women can be happy? Hooray! And I am grateful I am able to manage on my own, and I realize how very lucky I am to be living in a country where I have the freedom to do that, but that doesn't mean it is my preference.
And here is where I admit I did not rtfa. But I probably will.
posted by Glinn at 7:24 AM on January 18 [38 favorites]
The article is largely about women at or near retirement age who may have been married before and or have grown kids who don't want to risk their fat 401k and cozy retirement plans by legally burdening themselves with a husband who is (as stated so well above) quite likely to be looking for a nurse with a purse.
The article is specifically not about women who have chosen to never marry or never have children and the shape of their lives, and it's also not about women who are financially disadvantaged or unstable.
posted by phunniemee at 7:31 AM on January 18 [14 favorites]
The article is specifically not about women who have chosen to never marry or never have children and the shape of their lives, and it's also not about women who are financially disadvantaged or unstable.
posted by phunniemee at 7:31 AM on January 18 [14 favorites]
I still have a dream of buying adjoining duplexes so we keep our own spaces but see each other all the time.
The number of people in my family or that I just know where the woman has the house and the man has the driving shed/shop space/barn/basement/man cave/etc. and it is unusual for the the other person to spend much time in the primary person's space I can't count on two hands.
Obviously a big dose of misogyny there where the woman is usually maintaining the shared dining/bed space but it does operate in a separate residence sort of way.
posted by Mitheral at 7:34 AM on January 18 [6 favorites]
The number of people in my family or that I just know where the woman has the house and the man has the driving shed/shop space/barn/basement/man cave/etc. and it is unusual for the the other person to spend much time in the primary person's space I can't count on two hands.
Obviously a big dose of misogyny there where the woman is usually maintaining the shared dining/bed space but it does operate in a separate residence sort of way.
posted by Mitheral at 7:34 AM on January 18 [6 favorites]
The article is largely about women at or near retirement age who may have been married before and or have grown kids who don't want to risk their fat 401k and cozy retirement plans by legally burdening themselves with a husband who is (as stated so well above) quite likely to be looking for a nurse with a purse.
One of the interesting aspects of this for me, an aging never-married woman is that I don't have a fat RRSP or cozy retirement plan because I've never been married which means I pay all my own expenses and I haven't been able to accumulate significant wealth. Not that I'm doing badly, this isn't a pity party, and I'm not poor, but I wish I had significant assets to protect from a potential husband. Instead I have neither assets nor potential husband.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:40 AM on January 18 [21 favorites]
One of the interesting aspects of this for me, an aging never-married woman is that I don't have a fat RRSP or cozy retirement plan because I've never been married which means I pay all my own expenses and I haven't been able to accumulate significant wealth. Not that I'm doing badly, this isn't a pity party, and I'm not poor, but I wish I had significant assets to protect from a potential husband. Instead I have neither assets nor potential husband.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:40 AM on January 18 [21 favorites]
I still have a dream of buying adjoining duplexes so we keep our own spaces but see each other all the time.
In my mother’s circle of therapist friends the dream situation is two houses with a tunnel between them that can be locked from either side.
As someone who really enjoys 2000 sqft to himself I could get behind that.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:42 AM on January 18 [5 favorites]
In my mother’s circle of therapist friends the dream situation is two houses with a tunnel between them that can be locked from either side.
As someone who really enjoys 2000 sqft to himself I could get behind that.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:42 AM on January 18 [5 favorites]
here's one data point: self-reported happiness by sex, marital status, and parenthood. It's messy, and of course shows correlation, not causation, but married people are happier than unmarried, and married women are happier than married men, but unmarried women are also happier than unmarried men, so the happiness gap (married vs unmarried) for men is smaller than for women.
link
Just a note that the Institute for Family Studies is a conservative think tank whose stated mission is to "strengthen marriage and family life" and statistics about married women being happier than married men should be taken with a huge grain of salt. I'm not knocking that comment at all, as it correctly points out how messy the data is and how correlation is not causation, but looking further at the data, there really haven't been a ton of good studies about women, marital status, and happiness. I blame the patriarchy.
(Side note: It's interesting that so many of the highest-ranked Google results are from conservative sources.)
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:43 AM on January 18 [19 favorites]
link
Just a note that the Institute for Family Studies is a conservative think tank whose stated mission is to "strengthen marriage and family life" and statistics about married women being happier than married men should be taken with a huge grain of salt. I'm not knocking that comment at all, as it correctly points out how messy the data is and how correlation is not causation, but looking further at the data, there really haven't been a ton of good studies about women, marital status, and happiness. I blame the patriarchy.
(Side note: It's interesting that so many of the highest-ranked Google results are from conservative sources.)
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:43 AM on January 18 [19 favorites]
Yes, some of us who are single-never-married-middle-aged are indeed miserable.
As my grandma used to say about her senior suitors later in life: "They're just looking for a nurse with a purse."
This was true when I was 30.
posted by Melismata at 7:44 AM on January 18 [12 favorites]
As my grandma used to say about her senior suitors later in life: "They're just looking for a nurse with a purse."
This was true when I was 30.
posted by Melismata at 7:44 AM on January 18 [12 favorites]
quite a few of my friends are 50+ with a previous marriage or long-term (20+ years) relationship in their past, and I'm pretty sure they'd be happy to share their lives with a man, but. they have standards, and from what I can see they will likely remain single for the duration of their years on this earth.
as a man in the part of the world I inhabit, I don't see a lot to recommend being with men
posted by elkevelvet at 7:53 AM on January 18 [7 favorites]
as a man in the part of the world I inhabit, I don't see a lot to recommend being with men
posted by elkevelvet at 7:53 AM on January 18 [7 favorites]
I only wish this article had delved into more women, specifically pre-retirement ages of 40-60ish to get stories of women who intentionally set themselves up into this position. (Could be through various paths, married/divorced young/never ended up getting married/never wanted to get married/etc.) Mainly because I am that exact demographic.
posted by CoffeeHikeNapWine at 7:55 AM on January 18 [6 favorites]
posted by CoffeeHikeNapWine at 7:55 AM on January 18 [6 favorites]
Double check your local laws. Where I live, after 3 years of co-habitation it's considered a common law marriage…with the same financial obligations if you break up.
This differs widely depending on jurisdiction. The vast majority of jurisdictions in the United States, for example, do not recognize common law marriage. On the other hand, Canada may be a last bastion of common law marriage as many Canadian jurisdictions do seem to recognize it.
posted by slkinsey at 7:56 AM on January 18 [6 favorites]
This differs widely depending on jurisdiction. The vast majority of jurisdictions in the United States, for example, do not recognize common law marriage. On the other hand, Canada may be a last bastion of common law marriage as many Canadian jurisdictions do seem to recognize it.
posted by slkinsey at 7:56 AM on January 18 [6 favorites]
Some of this rings financially wrong to me. Maybe they know better than me, but in an inheritance, generally the inheritor has full access and control of the money. Spouse gets access to it because married and equality and all, but if inheriting spouse wants to be a jerk about it, they can keep inherited money completely separate legally with no entitlement to the non-inheriting spouse, whether they stay married or divorce. Easier said than done I guess.
Majority of assets earned pre-marriage (like a big 401k) are the same way.
Also,unless you are actual wealthy, there is no 'marriage penalty' for taxes. Most of the penalties kick in at $200K+ in income per person. There are some pentalties for things like child tax credit, but those don't really apply to the aged.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:01 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
Majority of assets earned pre-marriage (like a big 401k) are the same way.
Also,unless you are actual wealthy, there is no 'marriage penalty' for taxes. Most of the penalties kick in at $200K+ in income per person. There are some pentalties for things like child tax credit, but those don't really apply to the aged.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:01 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
One of the interesting aspects of this for me, an aging never-married woman is that I don't have a fat RRSP or cozy retirement plan because I've never been married which means I pay all my own expenses and I haven't been able to accumulate significant wealth.
Yeah the difference between my finances and those of my long-married friends is pretty stark. But at the same time a lot of the women in the article had to start from 0 or even less after divorces -- not so much protecting their fat cozy retirements as protecting everything they did manage to carve out for themselves.
I love my partner dearly but he and I have both firmly agreed that we don't want to marry. Cohabitate, sure (we don't live in a common-law state). But not marry. Both of our jobs would let us add a domestic partner to insurance. I have a complicated mortgage situation that lord knows he doesn't want to touch with a 10 foot pole; he has regular ol' debt that I'm not interested in owning. We are already each others' emergency contacts; and thanks to probably a combo of general straight privilege and the general liberality of our local hospital systems, nobody has ever stopped me from seeing him in the hospital (which has been a not-insignificant number of times).
Plus it frees up both of us to potentially marry a wealthy sugar daddy/mama should they come along lol.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:02 AM on January 18 [10 favorites]
Yeah the difference between my finances and those of my long-married friends is pretty stark. But at the same time a lot of the women in the article had to start from 0 or even less after divorces -- not so much protecting their fat cozy retirements as protecting everything they did manage to carve out for themselves.
I love my partner dearly but he and I have both firmly agreed that we don't want to marry. Cohabitate, sure (we don't live in a common-law state). But not marry. Both of our jobs would let us add a domestic partner to insurance. I have a complicated mortgage situation that lord knows he doesn't want to touch with a 10 foot pole; he has regular ol' debt that I'm not interested in owning. We are already each others' emergency contacts; and thanks to probably a combo of general straight privilege and the general liberality of our local hospital systems, nobody has ever stopped me from seeing him in the hospital (which has been a not-insignificant number of times).
Plus it frees up both of us to potentially marry a wealthy sugar daddy/mama should they come along lol.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:02 AM on January 18 [10 favorites]
I've never been married which means I pay all my own expenses and I haven't been able to accumulate significant wealth
As long as you don't have kids, you're still probably in a better position than you would have been had you married and divorced a spendthrift or wastrel husband...ask me how I know, says the woman who handles her mom's extremely modest IRAs. Not much comfort, I know, but at least you're not having to manage the consequences of other people's selfish decisions?
posted by praemunire at 8:03 AM on January 18 [6 favorites]
As long as you don't have kids, you're still probably in a better position than you would have been had you married and divorced a spendthrift or wastrel husband...ask me how I know, says the woman who handles her mom's extremely modest IRAs. Not much comfort, I know, but at least you're not having to manage the consequences of other people's selfish decisions?
posted by praemunire at 8:03 AM on January 18 [6 favorites]
My very sweet mother-in-law ended up in a long-term relationship with a great guy, and they opted to stay unmarried because of inheritance stuff (although they did cohabitate). Sadly, the decision to not remarry lost her a lot of church friends who had previously been very close to her. They had a happy relationship, and he nursed her through her final illness, but I know she lost a lot when she chose to go that direction.
posted by PussKillian at 8:04 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
posted by PussKillian at 8:04 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
As my grandma used to say about her senior suitors later in life: "They're just looking for a nurse with a purse."
This was true when I was 30.
I beg to differ; my ex-husband wanted a sex doll with a purse.
And +1kajillion to what praemunire said. I'm doing fine financially post-divorce, but I'd be further along if I hadn't married a lazy leech. If he and I had had kids, though... argh. I don't even like to think about it. So glad I said a hard no to kids.
posted by humbug at 8:09 AM on January 18 [11 favorites]
This was true when I was 30.
I beg to differ; my ex-husband wanted a sex doll with a purse.
And +1kajillion to what praemunire said. I'm doing fine financially post-divorce, but I'd be further along if I hadn't married a lazy leech. If he and I had had kids, though... argh. I don't even like to think about it. So glad I said a hard no to kids.
posted by humbug at 8:09 AM on January 18 [11 favorites]
I beg to differ; my ex-husband wanted a sex doll with a purse.
And +1kajillion to what praemunire said. I'm doing fine financially post-divorce, but I'd be further along if I hadn't married a lazy leech. If he and I had had kids, though... argh. I don't even like to think about it. So glad I said a hard no to kids.
Identical same situation. I was thrilled to get out of my marriage and somewhat break even, but I'm still resentful of all the ways my former husband siphoned off money and energy from me. I'm not as well off as a lot of my long-married peers, but I guess I'm glad to have had the life experience and I sure am grateful for any gains I've been able to make on my own.
posted by knotty knots at 8:17 AM on January 18 [5 favorites]
And +1kajillion to what praemunire said. I'm doing fine financially post-divorce, but I'd be further along if I hadn't married a lazy leech. If he and I had had kids, though... argh. I don't even like to think about it. So glad I said a hard no to kids.
Identical same situation. I was thrilled to get out of my marriage and somewhat break even, but I'm still resentful of all the ways my former husband siphoned off money and energy from me. I'm not as well off as a lot of my long-married peers, but I guess I'm glad to have had the life experience and I sure am grateful for any gains I've been able to make on my own.
posted by knotty knots at 8:17 AM on January 18 [5 favorites]
Also, for anyone contemplating buying property with an unmarried partner: it's not actually that big of a deal? I don't know why people act like it's some untouchable topic. Going in on fees & expenses 50/50 and all that is relatively uncomplicated (if you don't suspect your partner will try to screw you over*) and, in the event of moving or breaking up, there are many fewer complications than trying to sort it out in a divorce.
The only difference I can think of is that in a divorce, the court compels you to go through some form of "equitable distribution"...which was a big lol sure in my case. It did not help me at all. So buying as nonmarried partners and figuring it out amicably outside the legal system seems like a pretty good option, too.
*I guess this is a massive "if" and probably the whole meat and potatoes of the thing. But still, if both names are on the mortgage, there are built-in mechanisms for accountability.
posted by knotty knots at 8:24 AM on January 18 [7 favorites]
The only difference I can think of is that in a divorce, the court compels you to go through some form of "equitable distribution"...which was a big lol sure in my case. It did not help me at all. So buying as nonmarried partners and figuring it out amicably outside the legal system seems like a pretty good option, too.
*I guess this is a massive "if" and probably the whole meat and potatoes of the thing. But still, if both names are on the mortgage, there are built-in mechanisms for accountability.
posted by knotty knots at 8:24 AM on January 18 [7 favorites]
One of the interesting aspects of this for me, an aging never-married woman is that I don't have a fat RRSP or cozy retirement plan because I've never been married which means I pay all my own expenses and I haven't been able to accumulate significant wealth.
This is exactly what I thought MonsieurPEB was referring to with that. Permasingles don't have that formerly-married wealth bonus going on. I mean, otherwise it's probably pretty cool to be SARAH, but financially, you know how annoying it is when your longtime married friend is all, "I could quit my horrible job and live on a farm for a year to detox" and I'm all, "yeah, but you had a husband making a living so you could do that? I can't EVER take a year off to detox?"
Back on topic, my mom is shacked up with her boyfriend since pandemic. He doesn't want to get married since his ex-wife had mental health issues and apparently things were Very Bad--he won't talk about it much and I don't blame him. I think that's fine and I don't really care if they do or don't one way or the other, there's plusses and minusses to both statuses and as long as they're happy, do what you like. I think my mom finds it a bit annoying at times though. I do kind of wish I could say something like "my honorary stepfather" (since he is) rather than "my mom's boyfriend," but we don't want to freak him out with that title, just in case :P
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:42 AM on January 18 [8 favorites]
This is exactly what I thought MonsieurPEB was referring to with that. Permasingles don't have that formerly-married wealth bonus going on. I mean, otherwise it's probably pretty cool to be SARAH, but financially, you know how annoying it is when your longtime married friend is all, "I could quit my horrible job and live on a farm for a year to detox" and I'm all, "yeah, but you had a husband making a living so you could do that? I can't EVER take a year off to detox?"
Back on topic, my mom is shacked up with her boyfriend since pandemic. He doesn't want to get married since his ex-wife had mental health issues and apparently things were Very Bad--he won't talk about it much and I don't blame him. I think that's fine and I don't really care if they do or don't one way or the other, there's plusses and minusses to both statuses and as long as they're happy, do what you like. I think my mom finds it a bit annoying at times though. I do kind of wish I could say something like "my honorary stepfather" (since he is) rather than "my mom's boyfriend," but we don't want to freak him out with that title, just in case :P
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:42 AM on January 18 [8 favorites]
It'll all work fine for boomers of course, but anyone born after 2000 should really learn how to figure out who they can and cannot trust on money, not necessarily romantic partners but at least buisness-ish partners.
These commentators like Nate Hagens and Rachel Donald who discuss "how will our society collapse?" due to peak oil, climate, etc typically envision most people moving towards more communal living arrangments with more shared physical assets, and far less reliable virtual assets like stocks, bonds, etc.
We'd expect frauds proliferate like wildfire too, with most virtual assets all slowly becoming Theranos lite, meaning it'll simultaniously become increasingly important you do not trust the wrong people.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:09 AM on January 18 [5 favorites]
These commentators like Nate Hagens and Rachel Donald who discuss "how will our society collapse?" due to peak oil, climate, etc typically envision most people moving towards more communal living arrangments with more shared physical assets, and far less reliable virtual assets like stocks, bonds, etc.
We'd expect frauds proliferate like wildfire too, with most virtual assets all slowly becoming Theranos lite, meaning it'll simultaniously become increasingly important you do not trust the wrong people.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:09 AM on January 18 [5 favorites]
They had a happy relationship, and he nursed her through her final illness
As an aside I am watching my parents try to take care of each other into old age and while it sounds very romantic the logistics are getting very dicey. I wish we could afford live-in help.
I’m not sure the societal ideal of living together through the end of your lives should have been an ideal in the first place.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:20 AM on January 18 [8 favorites]
As an aside I am watching my parents try to take care of each other into old age and while it sounds very romantic the logistics are getting very dicey. I wish we could afford live-in help.
I’m not sure the societal ideal of living together through the end of your lives should have been an ideal in the first place.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:20 AM on January 18 [8 favorites]
People who prefer to remain unmarried but have a "spouse", so to speak, really need to look into the assorted legal and financial issues that can arise when one member gets sick, incapacitated, or dies.
If you do not live in a common-law marriage state you may have trouble having much of say over things when your partner dies. You may find that your partner's immediate family gets to call the shots. Also, medical power of attorney does not cover certain psychiatric situations.
I know people who learned the hard way. There are all sorts of things that one might never even know to think about.
One tip people have told me: If you have a life-partner in the hospital (or are the one taking them there) just say you are the husband/wife. No one questions it and it saves a lot of explaining and trouble when you want to see them or stay with them.
posted by Ayn Marx at 10:32 AM on January 18 [10 favorites]
If you do not live in a common-law marriage state you may have trouble having much of say over things when your partner dies. You may find that your partner's immediate family gets to call the shots. Also, medical power of attorney does not cover certain psychiatric situations.
I know people who learned the hard way. There are all sorts of things that one might never even know to think about.
One tip people have told me: If you have a life-partner in the hospital (or are the one taking them there) just say you are the husband/wife. No one questions it and it saves a lot of explaining and trouble when you want to see them or stay with them.
posted by Ayn Marx at 10:32 AM on January 18 [10 favorites]
Amongst my Gen-X cohort of women friends and acquaintances there seems to be widespread bordering on universal lack of interest in not just marriage but even cohabitating. This holds across all income levels, whether they are currently married, divorced, or never married in the first place, kids or no kids.
AFAICT it's mostly because living with a man is far too often far too much like having a large unruly child in the house. They don't clean up after themselves, they don't listen, they won't take responsibility for their own social lives and necessary things like medical appointments, they throw temper tantrums over the most minor shit. I've had happily married friends tell me pretty much out of the blue, "I love my husband to death, my kids are the best thing to happen to me, I don't regret a single thing, but if he dies in a car accident tomorrow, nah, that's it, I'm done, I'm living solo until I can't anymore. Just the thought of the effort in finding a possible new romantic relationship exhausts me. Maybe I'll date, but that's it." And my never-married friends have seen all this happen with their married friends, or lived with a man without marrying him, and they're just as "Nope."
A mixed-gender group of 5 or 6 of us are vaguely toying with the idea of creating some kind of large group home for all of us in retirement - which may be the only way we can retire . . .
posted by soundguy99 at 10:40 AM on January 18 [22 favorites]
AFAICT it's mostly because living with a man is far too often far too much like having a large unruly child in the house. They don't clean up after themselves, they don't listen, they won't take responsibility for their own social lives and necessary things like medical appointments, they throw temper tantrums over the most minor shit. I've had happily married friends tell me pretty much out of the blue, "I love my husband to death, my kids are the best thing to happen to me, I don't regret a single thing, but if he dies in a car accident tomorrow, nah, that's it, I'm done, I'm living solo until I can't anymore. Just the thought of the effort in finding a possible new romantic relationship exhausts me. Maybe I'll date, but that's it." And my never-married friends have seen all this happen with their married friends, or lived with a man without marrying him, and they're just as "Nope."
A mixed-gender group of 5 or 6 of us are vaguely toying with the idea of creating some kind of large group home for all of us in retirement - which may be the only way we can retire . . .
posted by soundguy99 at 10:40 AM on January 18 [22 favorites]
I posted this article, in part, because I grew up in an area where single/divorced affluent women "of a certain age", were pariahs. This was in a wealthy, educated and liberal community. Husbands, in some ways, were similar to handbags, you absolutely needed one and the more high-end, the better. Other than that, it didn't really matter who they were or if you liked them.
It was interesting to read that this has changed at least for a certain contingent - and given the NYTime's readership, I imagine it is the same one that I am familiar with. Overall, I'm not pro- or anti-marriage, marriage works for some and not for others, and I appreciate why someone might want to be in a marriage or not. This article though highlights a group who I think historically has been saddled with "must be wed at all costs" and is making a decision for themselves that, "nah, I'm good." That's an impressive change.
posted by Toddles at 10:55 AM on January 18 [11 favorites]
It was interesting to read that this has changed at least for a certain contingent - and given the NYTime's readership, I imagine it is the same one that I am familiar with. Overall, I'm not pro- or anti-marriage, marriage works for some and not for others, and I appreciate why someone might want to be in a marriage or not. This article though highlights a group who I think historically has been saddled with "must be wed at all costs" and is making a decision for themselves that, "nah, I'm good." That's an impressive change.
posted by Toddles at 10:55 AM on January 18 [11 favorites]
I married the Late Mr. Nerd so we could have legal next-of-kin status with each other.
I have a coworker who won't marry his longtime girlfriend because she'll lose her (very generous) alimony.
I have another friend who's separated from his wife but they remain legally married so she can stay on his benefits.
Marry again? Maybe, but not anytime soon.
posted by luckynerd at 10:58 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
I have a coworker who won't marry his longtime girlfriend because she'll lose her (very generous) alimony.
I have another friend who's separated from his wife but they remain legally married so she can stay on his benefits.
Marry again? Maybe, but not anytime soon.
posted by luckynerd at 10:58 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
a) we don’t know the gender of the poster
While I don't know the gender MP presents as in other contexts of their life, here on Metafilter MonsieurPEB has chosen to post under a name that's about as strongly gendered as you can get. I'm inclined to take him at his word.
posted by tigrrrlily at 12:28 PM on January 18
While I don't know the gender MP presents as in other contexts of their life, here on Metafilter MonsieurPEB has chosen to post under a name that's about as strongly gendered as you can get. I'm inclined to take him at his word.
posted by tigrrrlily at 12:28 PM on January 18
Seems like there will always be a certain percentage of men of any age who get married because they want to be taken care of; financially, emotionally, logistically, sexually, etc.. I know of two marriages which ended specifically because the female partner got sick and tired of this dynamic. In one of these cases, the male partner immediately shacked up with a younger woman and continued along his merry, lazy way.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:35 PM on January 18 [9 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:35 PM on January 18 [9 favorites]
I still have a dream of buying adjoining duplexes so we keep our own spaces but see each other all the time.
my boyfriend and I bought a house with 2 apartments to do exactly this, and yes, it's awesome. I have lot of sleep issues, so I'm really happy to have my own bedroom, I like entertaining a lot more than he does so he's happy to have his own space to retreat to as well. When buying the place we did draw up a legal document to outline what happens if we decide to split up. We weren't interested in getting married, which drives my mother a bit nuts, but we prefer it this way.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 1:09 PM on January 18 [15 favorites]
my boyfriend and I bought a house with 2 apartments to do exactly this, and yes, it's awesome. I have lot of sleep issues, so I'm really happy to have my own bedroom, I like entertaining a lot more than he does so he's happy to have his own space to retreat to as well. When buying the place we did draw up a legal document to outline what happens if we decide to split up. We weren't interested in getting married, which drives my mother a bit nuts, but we prefer it this way.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 1:09 PM on January 18 [15 favorites]
I've never been married which means I pay all my own expenses and I haven't been able to accumulate significant wealth
As long as you don't have kids, you're still probably in a better position than you would have been had you married and divorced a spendthrift or wastrel husband...
Well, yes it's probably better than if I had kids, but having no one to split expenses adds up quickly. Mortgage, electricity, car and gas, internet, solo trips, it's not cheap. And we need those extra solo trips to stave off the loneliness. (The fact that I live in the expensive Boston area does not help at all.)
Plus, there's the known fact that some normal items actually cost more for women than men, such as deodorant and dry cleaning.
posted by Melismata at 1:14 PM on January 18 [10 favorites]
As long as you don't have kids, you're still probably in a better position than you would have been had you married and divorced a spendthrift or wastrel husband...
Well, yes it's probably better than if I had kids, but having no one to split expenses adds up quickly. Mortgage, electricity, car and gas, internet, solo trips, it's not cheap. And we need those extra solo trips to stave off the loneliness. (The fact that I live in the expensive Boston area does not help at all.)
Plus, there's the known fact that some normal items actually cost more for women than men, such as deodorant and dry cleaning.
posted by Melismata at 1:14 PM on January 18 [10 favorites]
Wouldn't it be nice if you could just select from an à la carte menu for the different legal ramifications of marriage? To explicitly choose what you're going to share and what you're going to delegate, to separate the cultural marriage from the legal marriage? Imagine a world where nobody has to make the choice to get married (or not) just for practical considerations like taxes or whether you can visit someone in the hospital.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 2:01 PM on January 18 [11 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 2:01 PM on January 18 [11 favorites]
I'm 50, and I've basically always been single. I dated quite a bit when I was young, but I haven't had that many relationships and none of them were very good. My most significant relationship lasted twelve years off and on (age 26 to 38), but it was never monogamous and he was basically just using me. It ultimately ended when, within a three-month period, my favourite brother died of a heart attack at the age of 42, I got hit by a car, I lost my job, and I wanted the guy to spend some time with me semi-regularly (i.e., once ever two or three weeks). He said it "wasn't his responsibility". In the nearly 12 years since I cut contact with that guy, I've been on exactly two dates.
In my younger years I struggled a lot with depression over being alone and was in anguish of loneliness most of the time, but now I've more or less accepted it and don't expect to ever find a life partner. Developing chronic fatigue issues at 33 recalibrated my expectations a lot, I think. I'll be doing well if I manage to survive economically for the rest of my life. I don't expect the sort of regular, satisfying companionship I would like on top of that. I don't see how the kind of partner I want would ever be willing to be with someone like me, who isn't making a living and is so physically limited in terms of what she can do. How could I even find someone when I have no money or energy for going on dates? And going through all those disappointments and being treated like garbage when I was young, followed by many years of isolation, seems to have left me unable to form emotional attachments. I don't feel able to offer anyone anything but casual affection at this point.
I grieve a lot because I'll never have a child, but I will say I have zero interest at this point in ever getting married, or even in living with someone. I've yet to see a marriage that looked that good up close. And I like living alone. I don't want to change the way I eat, share my limited closet space, have to live with someone else's mess and noise and idiosyncrasies.
Life looks very different from the vantage point of middle-age than it does to that of youth. One has enough experience that one no longer idealizes anything, not even those things which one has never had, and one makes life decisions from a basis of hard-headed realism, practicality, and self-knowledge. And that can be a good thing, you know?
posted by orange swan at 5:14 PM on January 18 [23 favorites]
In my younger years I struggled a lot with depression over being alone and was in anguish of loneliness most of the time, but now I've more or less accepted it and don't expect to ever find a life partner. Developing chronic fatigue issues at 33 recalibrated my expectations a lot, I think. I'll be doing well if I manage to survive economically for the rest of my life. I don't expect the sort of regular, satisfying companionship I would like on top of that. I don't see how the kind of partner I want would ever be willing to be with someone like me, who isn't making a living and is so physically limited in terms of what she can do. How could I even find someone when I have no money or energy for going on dates? And going through all those disappointments and being treated like garbage when I was young, followed by many years of isolation, seems to have left me unable to form emotional attachments. I don't feel able to offer anyone anything but casual affection at this point.
I grieve a lot because I'll never have a child, but I will say I have zero interest at this point in ever getting married, or even in living with someone. I've yet to see a marriage that looked that good up close. And I like living alone. I don't want to change the way I eat, share my limited closet space, have to live with someone else's mess and noise and idiosyncrasies.
Life looks very different from the vantage point of middle-age than it does to that of youth. One has enough experience that one no longer idealizes anything, not even those things which one has never had, and one makes life decisions from a basis of hard-headed realism, practicality, and self-knowledge. And that can be a good thing, you know?
posted by orange swan at 5:14 PM on January 18 [23 favorites]
Well, yes it's probably better than if I had kids, but having no one to split expenses adds up quickly. Mortgage, electricity, car and gas, internet, solo trips, it's not cheap. And we need those extra solo trips to stave off the loneliness. (The fact that I live in the expensive Boston area does not help at all.)
psst, praemunire is a (single) lady's name...I know all about it. Still better off than if I had wasted my 20s/30s letting a loser husband drain my resources.
posted by praemunire at 5:43 PM on January 18 [4 favorites]
psst, praemunire is a (single) lady's name...I know all about it. Still better off than if I had wasted my 20s/30s letting a loser husband drain my resources.
posted by praemunire at 5:43 PM on January 18 [4 favorites]
I think the internet has revealed that a lot of peoples' ideas about relationships were based more on fiction than reality. And when the awful truths about how many families were quagmires of abuse and neglect, when even the happy families that we thought had it together turn out to be awful, when we see how frequently partners abandon someone who's been diagnosed with cancer, when we look at basically everything we've learned about how we relate to each other in the twenty-first century, well, it's no wonder people are approaching relationships with a healthy dose of skepticism.
We're barreling into a situation where a whole lot of the social supports that society depends on to take care of an aging population won't be there for most people. The future is going to be lonely. We should probably start planning for that.
posted by MrVisible at 5:52 PM on January 18 [9 favorites]
We're barreling into a situation where a whole lot of the social supports that society depends on to take care of an aging population won't be there for most people. The future is going to be lonely. We should probably start planning for that.
posted by MrVisible at 5:52 PM on January 18 [9 favorites]
I've watched my parent's generation get divorced and widowed and rush right out and get married again. I feel as if it's definitely been the men who seemed like they could not function outside of a marriage, and a marriage as much as possible like the first one. Some of them remarried within the same crowd of people that had all grown up together; otherwise they were bringing in people who were friends of friends. It was kind of like a game of musical spouses for a while, with everyone scrambling for the same people. My father ended up with a woman who had moved to the area recently and was related to a neighbor of his who introduced them.
I was at a dinner with some of these people and was seated next to a women who had been to the same graduate school as me for creative writing. I asked how it was going and she said she'd just given up writing because she married this guy my father had known since third grade. Like, QED, I got married so I stopped writing. It really made me mad because it looked like he was taking up absolutely all of her time.
I think a lot of these people were OK financially but were starting to feel pressure with failing health and disability and that was a big motivator for some. As a woman, I don't think being married is a guarantee that you will be all right in that regard. If you are married to a man who is the same age or a little older, there is no reason to think he will be alive or in good enough health to help you out much.
posted by BibiRose at 5:50 AM on January 19 [8 favorites]
I was at a dinner with some of these people and was seated next to a women who had been to the same graduate school as me for creative writing. I asked how it was going and she said she'd just given up writing because she married this guy my father had known since third grade. Like, QED, I got married so I stopped writing. It really made me mad because it looked like he was taking up absolutely all of her time.
I think a lot of these people were OK financially but were starting to feel pressure with failing health and disability and that was a big motivator for some. As a woman, I don't think being married is a guarantee that you will be all right in that regard. If you are married to a man who is the same age or a little older, there is no reason to think he will be alive or in good enough health to help you out much.
posted by BibiRose at 5:50 AM on January 19 [8 favorites]
psst, praemunire is a (single) lady's name...I know all about it. Still better off than if I had wasted my 20s/30s letting a loser husband drain my resources.
Yeah, the flipside to "oh we got married young and stayed married, so we always had two incomes and half the expenses" is "oh we got married young and my spouse mysteriously never worked or contributed again, so I just always have one income and 2x the expenses."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:30 AM on January 19 [10 favorites]
Yeah, the flipside to "oh we got married young and stayed married, so we always had two incomes and half the expenses" is "oh we got married young and my spouse mysteriously never worked or contributed again, so I just always have one income and 2x the expenses."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:30 AM on January 19 [10 favorites]
Really it just comes down to, there's 400 ways to become poor, and maybe 2 ways to become rich, and if you can't access the 2 ways to become rich you better just do as much as you can to avoid those 400 ways to become poor. Part of that is avoiding risky gambles, and there's plenty of evidence out there that marriage can be a risky gamble.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:33 AM on January 19 [11 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:33 AM on January 19 [11 favorites]
Really it just comes down to, there's 400 ways to become poor, and maybe 2 ways to become rich, and if you can't access the 2 ways to become rich you better just do as much as you can to avoid those 400 ways to become poor.
Wow, that's a disturbingly clear and concise way to sum things up. Stuff to avoid includes bad marriages, bad relationships, bad jobs, scams, cons, getting sick, financial collapse, environmental disaster, and just plain bad luck. But as long as you steer clear of any of those, you're probably going to be able to scrape by.
I didn't think I had unrealistic dreams for the future back when I was a starry-eyed lad in the 80s. I mean, I expected a dystopia, sure. But I really, really didn't expect to live to see a day in which relationships and even children were seen as luxuries that a whole lot of people just can't risk.
posted by MrVisible at 11:39 AM on January 19 [4 favorites]
Wow, that's a disturbingly clear and concise way to sum things up. Stuff to avoid includes bad marriages, bad relationships, bad jobs, scams, cons, getting sick, financial collapse, environmental disaster, and just plain bad luck. But as long as you steer clear of any of those, you're probably going to be able to scrape by.
I didn't think I had unrealistic dreams for the future back when I was a starry-eyed lad in the 80s. I mean, I expected a dystopia, sure. But I really, really didn't expect to live to see a day in which relationships and even children were seen as luxuries that a whole lot of people just can't risk.
posted by MrVisible at 11:39 AM on January 19 [4 favorites]
And then there are women who are not particularly interested in romantic relationships again even if that would make their lives easier. Grace, 61, has two jobs: She works full time as a high school counselor and part time as a city council member. She also has a house payment for the next two decades: “I’m probably going to be paying a mortgage until I’m in my 80s.” A contentious divorce was expensive and left her struggling.
But there’s good news: Her three kids are grown; they received scholarships so tuition wasn’t a financial issue. She’s back on her feet, thanks to a very conservative approach to spending money. “I’m frugal,” she says. And she has a solid group of girlfriends who provide a solid social and emotional network.
~~~
Of course, we’re talking about women who, through hard work and the ability to invest, have enough resources to make that choice and live independently without pinching pennies. Millions of older women, who were systemically paid lower wages and have little or no retirement savings, will live in poverty in their old age. The idea of marriage — sharing expenses and other financial and legal benefits — can be a godsend.
The first part sounds similar to my mum: widowed almost five years ago, her gang of friends (that's she's kept since childhood, even after living overseas for a couple decades!) are now mostly widows/divorcees themselves. None of them are rich enough to be considered SARAHs, but they all seem happy with where they are at whenever they meet for their monthly lunches.
While Mum will never be rich, we are at least comfortable because she is getting part of the retirement pensions my father worked for most of his life, and we have no mortgage because they were in the process of saving up for a move back to the States to enjoy their retirement and assumed getting a bank loan as two unemployed 60-somethings would be quite difficult. While that money may not have gone as far in my metro area as their originally-planned lower cost of living small town, we are at least fortunate that even with my simple salary, we can afford this "forever home" (that needs a new roof this year, sigh).
I'm now looking down the barrel of middle-age and dealing with the conscious choice to be a "happy spinster." I've always valued my independence, and while there had perhaps been chances in my past to seek the stereotypical wife-and-mother route, I preferred to instead focus on my whims and live a life that gave me that freedom. I join in the chorus of others who would only consider a relationship if we had separate living spaces (the only way Mum and I manage is we get along well and we can escape to our separate levels in the house). I don't envy Frida Kahlo and Diego Rivera's marriage, but I respect them for having separate houses connected with a bridge. That seems ideal.
I also know I struggle with idea of choosing one person "forever," even so much as I appreciate and respect the relationships I see around me, such as my grandparents who were devoted to each other for over sixty years.
But I appreciate that my grandmother saw a familiar flare of independence in me -- she had decided when she was young that she wouldn't marry unless it was the right person because, thanks to working in offices during WW2, she had skills that could earn her own living. Perhaps that decision was also made because when she was nine, her father died, and a few years later, her mother remarried out of necessity.* She always hated her stepfather and the way her mother changed after she remarried, and likely wanted to be able to support herself for as long as she could. And she did! As a pastor's wife, the family never had much money, but she was quite an excellent administrator and did well to supplement their income working in schools, so much so that her personal pension plan was apparently quite decent.
So I am the daughter of a line of fiercely independent women, but I am the first generation who gets to choose to be single. I don't need to marry out of necessity, or because that's what the culture dictates. I have my own job, my own car, my own house (with thanks to my mother), my own retirement plan (as meager as it may be). While I aver that I could socialize more, I have enough friends to keep me content.
Anyway, I am delighting at the roads these women are paving for me and my cohort.
*As an aside, my desire for something cozy during the arctic chill has me re-reading and re-watching all things Jane Austen, and I've been reminded once again that, historically, marriage was the most important decision a woman could make, largely because of finances, and to be unmarried and poor generally led to a difficult life. I'm glad to live in a time where being unmarried and lower middle-ish class is at least acceptable.
posted by paisley sheep at 1:29 PM on January 19 [8 favorites]
But there’s good news: Her three kids are grown; they received scholarships so tuition wasn’t a financial issue. She’s back on her feet, thanks to a very conservative approach to spending money. “I’m frugal,” she says. And she has a solid group of girlfriends who provide a solid social and emotional network.
~~~
Of course, we’re talking about women who, through hard work and the ability to invest, have enough resources to make that choice and live independently without pinching pennies. Millions of older women, who were systemically paid lower wages and have little or no retirement savings, will live in poverty in their old age. The idea of marriage — sharing expenses and other financial and legal benefits — can be a godsend.
The first part sounds similar to my mum: widowed almost five years ago, her gang of friends (that's she's kept since childhood, even after living overseas for a couple decades!) are now mostly widows/divorcees themselves. None of them are rich enough to be considered SARAHs, but they all seem happy with where they are at whenever they meet for their monthly lunches.
While Mum will never be rich, we are at least comfortable because she is getting part of the retirement pensions my father worked for most of his life, and we have no mortgage because they were in the process of saving up for a move back to the States to enjoy their retirement and assumed getting a bank loan as two unemployed 60-somethings would be quite difficult. While that money may not have gone as far in my metro area as their originally-planned lower cost of living small town, we are at least fortunate that even with my simple salary, we can afford this "forever home" (that needs a new roof this year, sigh).
I'm now looking down the barrel of middle-age and dealing with the conscious choice to be a "happy spinster." I've always valued my independence, and while there had perhaps been chances in my past to seek the stereotypical wife-and-mother route, I preferred to instead focus on my whims and live a life that gave me that freedom. I join in the chorus of others who would only consider a relationship if we had separate living spaces (the only way Mum and I manage is we get along well and we can escape to our separate levels in the house). I don't envy Frida Kahlo and Diego Rivera's marriage, but I respect them for having separate houses connected with a bridge. That seems ideal.
I also know I struggle with idea of choosing one person "forever," even so much as I appreciate and respect the relationships I see around me, such as my grandparents who were devoted to each other for over sixty years.
But I appreciate that my grandmother saw a familiar flare of independence in me -- she had decided when she was young that she wouldn't marry unless it was the right person because, thanks to working in offices during WW2, she had skills that could earn her own living. Perhaps that decision was also made because when she was nine, her father died, and a few years later, her mother remarried out of necessity.* She always hated her stepfather and the way her mother changed after she remarried, and likely wanted to be able to support herself for as long as she could. And she did! As a pastor's wife, the family never had much money, but she was quite an excellent administrator and did well to supplement their income working in schools, so much so that her personal pension plan was apparently quite decent.
So I am the daughter of a line of fiercely independent women, but I am the first generation who gets to choose to be single. I don't need to marry out of necessity, or because that's what the culture dictates. I have my own job, my own car, my own house (with thanks to my mother), my own retirement plan (as meager as it may be). While I aver that I could socialize more, I have enough friends to keep me content.
Anyway, I am delighting at the roads these women are paving for me and my cohort.
*As an aside, my desire for something cozy during the arctic chill has me re-reading and re-watching all things Jane Austen, and I've been reminded once again that, historically, marriage was the most important decision a woman could make, largely because of finances, and to be unmarried and poor generally led to a difficult life. I'm glad to live in a time where being unmarried and lower middle-ish class is at least acceptable.
posted by paisley sheep at 1:29 PM on January 19 [8 favorites]
Oh and I added the second quote thinking about the financial need to remarry, like my great-grandmother did during the Great Depression. And which my mother doesn't need to do because I am happy to take care of her. (That opens up a whole new discussion, though, which was briefly touched on in a previous thread.)
posted by paisley sheep at 1:34 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]
posted by paisley sheep at 1:34 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]
But I really, really didn't expect to live to see a day in which relationships and even children were seen as luxuries that a whole lot of people just can't risk.
(If you are a person who could bear children, children have ALWAYS been a potentially costly luxury and very serious risk. It's only recently that they're a risk we have some -- ever dwindling -- means of avoiding.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:51 PM on January 19 [13 favorites]
(If you are a person who could bear children, children have ALWAYS been a potentially costly luxury and very serious risk. It's only recently that they're a risk we have some -- ever dwindling -- means of avoiding.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:51 PM on January 19 [13 favorites]
a day in which relationships and even children were seen as luxuries that a whole lot of people just can't risk
Obviously a huge generalization, but, in earlier days, some form of marriage was a necessity that most women had to risk whether they were particularly interested or not. What's happening here is (some) women getting to opt out of that shitty deal, but not without cost, because so many men still remain uninterested in equal, mutual partnerships.
posted by praemunire at 7:31 PM on January 19 [5 favorites]
Obviously a huge generalization, but, in earlier days, some form of marriage was a necessity that most women had to risk whether they were particularly interested or not. What's happening here is (some) women getting to opt out of that shitty deal, but not without cost, because so many men still remain uninterested in equal, mutual partnerships.
posted by praemunire at 7:31 PM on January 19 [5 favorites]
For what it's worth, my father's girlfriend is basically the poster child (poster senior citizen?) for this phenomenon, and she did marry and have children. But now she's divorced and her kids are grown, and she wants companionship but not to be expected to pick up her partner's socks and cook his dinner. I think that for a certain subset of older women, this decision is the result of a lifetime of negotiating the unspoken gender norms of most hetero marriages and realizing what is necessary to opt out of the expectation of default housekeeping and caregiving responsibilities.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:03 AM on January 20 [6 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:03 AM on January 20 [6 favorites]
so many men still remain uninterested in equal, mutual partnerships.
I've said before that I think the transitional time is kind of the most hellish of them all: where we're halfway in between different methods of relationship norms, and everyone's kind of working on different understandings, and it makes it nearly impossible to exist without running into them.
So we're seeing an uncoupling of what the most equal that a heterosexual woman could get from a heterosexual man under an obligatorily gendered deal would be: the man would make the money, but not ask the woman to also work, and he would still do a number of chores around the house while he was home. He would be sexually and romantically monogamous, and propose to the woman within a reasonable length of time after they had been seriously dating for a while, usually 1-2 years. He would take on the burdens of caretaking her parents as well as his own, fixing their house, etc. If they divorced, he would pay alimony for several years at the least, which with the combination of that and child support would enable her to maintain a home even if she wasn't working.
We all agree that doesn't exist anymore and probably shouldn't exist, because it kind of forced women into this at-home scenario whether they wanted it or not. But with the loss of that came a lot of questions about what is equality, and how are we defining it, in a world where not all the expectations are gone, and it's nearly impossible to tell if someone is doing something because they're an ass or because they're a part of new expectations.
I remember being really upset when I was asked to work fulltime by a male partner, not because I had my heart set on being a homemaker, but because I saw it as a red flag - when I was growing up, the men who pushed their wives to work were the ones who couldn't keep jobs because they kept losing their temper and getting in fights. Friends told me no, this is just how it is now, it's expected for both partners to work. But it turned out that for that guy, it was in fact a marker of exactly the thing I thought it was - as soon as I was working full time, he started getting in fights at work and losing his job routinely. Similarly, I have a lot of poly friends for whom it works great for them, but there's a reason that "long term, long distance, low commitment, casual girlfriend" bit hit so hard in the Barbie movie for so many women - because for a lot of women, it's not that their partners have somehow evolved past the need for sexual monogamy and are engaging in intentional polyamory, it's that the men are using the fact that other people are engaging in polyamory and there's no one Defined Relationship Model to not have to commit - physically, financially, or emotionally - to one woman.
And I think that's why I have so many mixed feelings about this take on marriage in later life. Because it's really hard to tell who's sincere about not needing a paper to be married, and who's pulling the "We don't need a paper to get married, man..." and then is going to nope out at the first sign of trouble because in fact, they *didn't* take that relationship as seriously as a marriage, which is why they didnt actually get married. The article does a lot of handwaving about 'well prenups can be viewed as under duress' but I really don't buy it - there's easy ways to avoid that which somehow aren't mentioned in the article but I would think financial advisors would be aware of.
posted by corb at 1:40 PM on January 20 [9 favorites]
I've said before that I think the transitional time is kind of the most hellish of them all: where we're halfway in between different methods of relationship norms, and everyone's kind of working on different understandings, and it makes it nearly impossible to exist without running into them.
So we're seeing an uncoupling of what the most equal that a heterosexual woman could get from a heterosexual man under an obligatorily gendered deal would be: the man would make the money, but not ask the woman to also work, and he would still do a number of chores around the house while he was home. He would be sexually and romantically monogamous, and propose to the woman within a reasonable length of time after they had been seriously dating for a while, usually 1-2 years. He would take on the burdens of caretaking her parents as well as his own, fixing their house, etc. If they divorced, he would pay alimony for several years at the least, which with the combination of that and child support would enable her to maintain a home even if she wasn't working.
We all agree that doesn't exist anymore and probably shouldn't exist, because it kind of forced women into this at-home scenario whether they wanted it or not. But with the loss of that came a lot of questions about what is equality, and how are we defining it, in a world where not all the expectations are gone, and it's nearly impossible to tell if someone is doing something because they're an ass or because they're a part of new expectations.
I remember being really upset when I was asked to work fulltime by a male partner, not because I had my heart set on being a homemaker, but because I saw it as a red flag - when I was growing up, the men who pushed their wives to work were the ones who couldn't keep jobs because they kept losing their temper and getting in fights. Friends told me no, this is just how it is now, it's expected for both partners to work. But it turned out that for that guy, it was in fact a marker of exactly the thing I thought it was - as soon as I was working full time, he started getting in fights at work and losing his job routinely. Similarly, I have a lot of poly friends for whom it works great for them, but there's a reason that "long term, long distance, low commitment, casual girlfriend" bit hit so hard in the Barbie movie for so many women - because for a lot of women, it's not that their partners have somehow evolved past the need for sexual monogamy and are engaging in intentional polyamory, it's that the men are using the fact that other people are engaging in polyamory and there's no one Defined Relationship Model to not have to commit - physically, financially, or emotionally - to one woman.
And I think that's why I have so many mixed feelings about this take on marriage in later life. Because it's really hard to tell who's sincere about not needing a paper to be married, and who's pulling the "We don't need a paper to get married, man..." and then is going to nope out at the first sign of trouble because in fact, they *didn't* take that relationship as seriously as a marriage, which is why they didnt actually get married. The article does a lot of handwaving about 'well prenups can be viewed as under duress' but I really don't buy it - there's easy ways to avoid that which somehow aren't mentioned in the article but I would think financial advisors would be aware of.
posted by corb at 1:40 PM on January 20 [9 favorites]
As with anything it's about choosing your risks. At no time did 100% of women stay home, and even when they could, they had little power to force men to live up to their commitment. Lots of men just ran off.
A better arrangement would be one where survival , including child raising, was doable without another person's support, because society itself provided it. That's equality. Women whose kids are grown and who are single and doing ok financially are really just getting a taste of it. Lots of women never get there.
posted by emjaybee at 9:41 PM on January 22 [3 favorites]
A better arrangement would be one where survival , including child raising, was doable without another person's support, because society itself provided it. That's equality. Women whose kids are grown and who are single and doing ok financially are really just getting a taste of it. Lots of women never get there.
posted by emjaybee at 9:41 PM on January 22 [3 favorites]
« Older i've heard of chiptunes but | The foremost classical music satirist of all time Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by keep_evolving at 6:02 PM on January 17 [85 favorites]