Your Cells Can Think
January 18, 2024 2:52 PM Subscribe
"It turns out that regular cells—not just highly specialized brain cells such as neurons—have the ability to store information and act on it. Now Levin has shown that the cells do so by using subtle changes in electric fields as a type of memory. These revelations have put the biologist at the vanguard of a new field called basal cognition. Researchers in this burgeoning area have spotted hallmarks of intelligence—learning, memory, problem-solving—outside brains as well as within them."
I don't know much about biology, but computation can certainly emerge from very simple parts. All you need to make the simplest element of memory is two things that try to inhibit each other (the stored memory is whichever one is winning- their current victory helps them stay winning). And the history of computing is littered with people that tried to make simple "configuration" languages accidentally giving them one feature or another that made the language Turing-complete. Simple changes can radically change the computational possibilities. It's not farfetched at all to me that evolution could (repeatedly!) stumble onto universal computation.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 3:11 PM on January 18 [22 favorites]
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 3:11 PM on January 18 [22 favorites]
If this is true, then the body does keep the score.
posted by snortasprocket at 3:32 PM on January 18 [21 favorites]
posted by snortasprocket at 3:32 PM on January 18 [21 favorites]
They soon lost all fear... Then he decapitated them all.
posted by grumpybear69 at 3:33 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 3:33 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
The woo crowd is gonna love this.
posted by flamk at 3:50 PM on January 18 [17 favorites]
posted by flamk at 3:50 PM on January 18 [17 favorites]
“The neuron is not a miracle cell,” says Stefano Mancuso, a University of Florence botanist who has written several books on plant intelligence. “It's a normal cell that is able to produce an electric signal. In plants almost every cell is able to do that.”
I think I'll take my info on neurons from neuroscientists, thanks.
posted by grumpybear69 at 3:59 PM on January 18 [5 favorites]
I think I'll take my info on neurons from neuroscientists, thanks.
posted by grumpybear69 at 3:59 PM on January 18 [5 favorites]
my gut's not buying this
posted by torokunai at 4:10 PM on January 18 [28 favorites]
posted by torokunai at 4:10 PM on January 18 [28 favorites]
We prefer “woo collective,” thank you very much.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:14 PM on January 18 [27 favorites]
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:14 PM on January 18 [27 favorites]
As a woo-adjacent fellow traveler, I’m down with that.
posted by flamk at 4:16 PM on January 18 [8 favorites]
posted by flamk at 4:16 PM on January 18 [8 favorites]
I mean I feel like the skill of "drawing" lives just as much in my right hand as it does in my brain, after being a pro-level artist for a quarter of a century I am at a point where I just kind of think "it would be nice for this shape there" and it happens without too much conscious thought.
posted by egypturnash at 4:20 PM on January 18 [17 favorites]
posted by egypturnash at 4:20 PM on January 18 [17 favorites]
I mean I feel like the skill of "drawing" lives just as much in my right hand as it does in my brain, after being a pro-level artist for a quarter of a century I am at a point where I just kind of think "it would be nice for this shape there" and it happens without too much conscious thought.
I wish I had this kind of talent for literally anything
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:25 PM on January 18 [9 favorites]
I wish I had this kind of talent for literally anything
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:25 PM on January 18 [9 favorites]
Definitely getting goopy woo vibes from this story, and not in any kind of good way. This is not cognition or magic, it is epigenetics.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:36 PM on January 18 [5 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:36 PM on January 18 [5 favorites]
Cells being able to do something specific is not the same thing as cells all over a person's body doing the thinking.
Aside from the fact that the human brain-body system is a coherent whole and not merely a navigator in a meat bag, the fact remains that a lot of things can happen to the meat bag without directly affecting the navigator. The gut microbiome has for some time been known to affect various aspects of cognition/mood/etc, but it's still the brain that does the thinking, and if there is any evidence to support that a loss of a limb or an impairment of a muscular system affects cognition without affecting the brain, I'm all ears. In the meantime, though, I'm not going to worry too much about whether my kidneys have thoughts.
posted by tclark at 4:45 PM on January 18 [6 favorites]
Aside from the fact that the human brain-body system is a coherent whole and not merely a navigator in a meat bag, the fact remains that a lot of things can happen to the meat bag without directly affecting the navigator. The gut microbiome has for some time been known to affect various aspects of cognition/mood/etc, but it's still the brain that does the thinking, and if there is any evidence to support that a loss of a limb or an impairment of a muscular system affects cognition without affecting the brain, I'm all ears. In the meantime, though, I'm not going to worry too much about whether my kidneys have thoughts.
posted by tclark at 4:45 PM on January 18 [6 favorites]
If this is true, then the body does keep the score.
Yes, it fucking does. I've just started a therapy journey through this, and my second appointment was a bit of an eye-opener to me. I have no idea what appointment three might hold in store, but yes, body, score, keeps, yes.
I mean I feel like the skill of "drawing" lives just as much in my right hand as it does in my brain, after being a pro-level artist for a quarter of a century I am at a point where I just kind of think "it would be nice for this shape there" and it happens without too much conscious thought.
Back in a former lifetime, I was able to think about music and have it come out through my fingers into a piano. Like, I was really fluent in piano and had gotten to the point where I didn't have to really work at playing unless it was a difficult piece. Generally, if I needed to play at thing, I could just play it. Better with music, but close enough for general work without.
I can't do this anymore, but I could regain it because it is just my brain-to-fingers thing that is broken, not my conceptual framework about music.
Anyway, yes, at some point, the talent you have for expression lies as much in the parts of your body that you use as it does your brain directing them to do their work. It's a strange thing, but I know what you mean.
posted by hippybear at 4:58 PM on January 18 [4 favorites]
Yes, it fucking does. I've just started a therapy journey through this, and my second appointment was a bit of an eye-opener to me. I have no idea what appointment three might hold in store, but yes, body, score, keeps, yes.
I mean I feel like the skill of "drawing" lives just as much in my right hand as it does in my brain, after being a pro-level artist for a quarter of a century I am at a point where I just kind of think "it would be nice for this shape there" and it happens without too much conscious thought.
Back in a former lifetime, I was able to think about music and have it come out through my fingers into a piano. Like, I was really fluent in piano and had gotten to the point where I didn't have to really work at playing unless it was a difficult piece. Generally, if I needed to play at thing, I could just play it. Better with music, but close enough for general work without.
I can't do this anymore, but I could regain it because it is just my brain-to-fingers thing that is broken, not my conceptual framework about music.
Anyway, yes, at some point, the talent you have for expression lies as much in the parts of your body that you use as it does your brain directing them to do their work. It's a strange thing, but I know what you mean.
posted by hippybear at 4:58 PM on January 18 [4 favorites]
Yeah, no.
The author of that piece does a huge amount of anthropomorphizing to turn a potentially interesting story about surprisingly sophisticated mechanisms which store some simuli/response actions into a breathless tract about how plants "perceive" the world around them.
posted by Ickster at 5:01 PM on January 18 [8 favorites]
The author of that piece does a huge amount of anthropomorphizing to turn a potentially interesting story about surprisingly sophisticated mechanisms which store some simuli/response actions into a breathless tract about how plants "perceive" the world around them.
posted by Ickster at 5:01 PM on January 18 [8 favorites]
The scientific vindication of Jainism would be so annoying. Their veganism avoids eating potatoes and onions because they consider sprouting to be highly intelligent behavior.
On the other hand, please do not fear the woo; basically any set of beliefs about the mind and consciousness will be woo on the "deeper" questions. IMHO neither the empirical science or philosophical structure are developed enough to provide a standard answer when these deeper issues arise. I'm reminded of this recent post, where a philosopher plausibly argued, in part through examining various arbitrary beliefs about what can be conscious, that the United States is probably conscious.
posted by Hume at 5:02 PM on January 18 [7 favorites]
On the other hand, please do not fear the woo; basically any set of beliefs about the mind and consciousness will be woo on the "deeper" questions. IMHO neither the empirical science or philosophical structure are developed enough to provide a standard answer when these deeper issues arise. I'm reminded of this recent post, where a philosopher plausibly argued, in part through examining various arbitrary beliefs about what can be conscious, that the United States is probably conscious.
posted by Hume at 5:02 PM on January 18 [7 favorites]
I can think about my cells thinking about me, but can my cells think about me thinking about them?
posted by clawsoon at 5:13 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 5:13 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
SciAm has gone downhill .......and this well-lauded writer should know better with his very, very broad strokes.
posted by lalochezia at 5:20 PM on January 18 [6 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 5:20 PM on January 18 [6 favorites]
Woo-anon?
posted by zaixfeep at 5:28 PM on January 18 [3 favorites]
posted by zaixfeep at 5:28 PM on January 18 [3 favorites]
Pardon the derail, but the thought occurs that finding non-carbon-based life might be a breeze compared to finding non-bioelectric-based life...
posted by zaixfeep at 5:30 PM on January 18
posted by zaixfeep at 5:30 PM on January 18
'Captain's personal log - stardate 4309.2. We have established that the thing which destroyed the U.S.S. Intrepid and the Gamma 7A system is an incredibly huge but simple cellular being whose energies are totally destructive to all known life.'
posted by clavdivs at 5:55 PM on January 18 [3 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 5:55 PM on January 18 [3 favorites]
the human brain-body system is a coherent whole and not merely a navigator in a meat bag
Speak for yourself.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:55 PM on January 18 [12 favorites]
Speak for yourself.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:55 PM on January 18 [12 favorites]
i used to rock climb in really tight shoes because it was popular but they made my toes really hurt. i was the style at the time.
now when i see photos or videos of extreme exposure my toes throb. and with this also now i wonder which is activating which: toes go in first or is the eyes that have it ?
posted by MonsieurPEB at 6:00 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
now when i see photos or videos of extreme exposure my toes throb. and with this also now i wonder which is activating which: toes go in first or is the eyes that have it ?
posted by MonsieurPEB at 6:00 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
Seems like a pretty fuzzy definition of cognition, if this qualifies doesn't that include things like circuits with memory or even stateful algorithms?
Would be very funny if all those new age magnetic bracelets actually did something.
posted by ndr at 6:08 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
Would be very funny if all those new age magnetic bracelets actually did something.
posted by ndr at 6:08 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
But neurons are special. They spike. Yes, all cells have an electric potential measured against the extracellular space; that’s part of the engine that keeps us alive. But that’s not nearly the same thing as an action potential, which is definitely a key part of what we call thinking, and it doesn’t help anyone to elide that difference. It’s like saying all cells can pump blood because they’re electrical — but no, calcium channels are pretty important there and not all cells can do that.
I agree with other folks; the basic idea is cool (and distinct from epigenetics as far as I can tell). The nematode that “learned faster” a behavior that it displayed before brainectomy is intriguing for sure. I just hesitate to call that thinking, as it sounds more like proprioception to me. Still cool though!
posted by dbx at 7:13 PM on January 18 [6 favorites]
I agree with other folks; the basic idea is cool (and distinct from epigenetics as far as I can tell). The nematode that “learned faster” a behavior that it displayed before brainectomy is intriguing for sure. I just hesitate to call that thinking, as it sounds more like proprioception to me. Still cool though!
posted by dbx at 7:13 PM on January 18 [6 favorites]
He spoke during one of our conferences about Collective Intelligence. It ranged from self organizing motorized children’s blocks, to gut biome, to Michael Levin’s experiments, to a disturbing guy who electrocuted starfish. Yes, Michael’s a storyteller to get general people excited about these ideas, but the root science of it is pretty exciting to people that have the attention span for these sorts of talks. You know when you’re at a conference and there’s one speaker who the crowd slowly realizes is operating way above them? He was that guy that day. https://youtu.be/5ChRM4CEWyg
posted by richeditor at 7:52 PM on January 18 [11 favorites]
posted by richeditor at 7:52 PM on January 18 [11 favorites]
With science journalism anymore you're pretty safe taking the sensational claim and dialing down an order of magnitude and you might be in range of what the actual story is. Still a big deal but not world shattering, just incremental advances in science.
posted by VTX at 8:04 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
posted by VTX at 8:04 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
I photographed Levin's (and associates') labs a few times for different publications over the last decade. Apologies for the self-link, but here's one of the frogs with a functional eye growing on its back and here's one of the flatworm memory-testing apparatuses (click around and you'll see more of it). Both images from 2014. Photographed the xenobots a year or two ago, too, and those were really interesting.
posted by msbrauer at 8:18 PM on January 18 [16 favorites]
posted by msbrauer at 8:18 PM on January 18 [16 favorites]
I'm 50/50 on this sorta thing. Is it overuse/generalization of the term "thinking"? Is it just systems emergence in a way we would expect (state retention is just a loop). Definitely look forward to seeing the paper in a bit, but have to do my "haven't RTFA'd" comment first.
I am pro-non-human sentience (for those that we can seem to indicate like some (all?) cetaceans, great apes, octopuses, etc)... I am not sure about a pan-psychism, though I've a friend who apparently buys into it.
I do think as long as systems can form complex iterations of a signal through time (and record it on whatever it is able to as a substrate, in whatever encoding it may be), in a way that helps its survival of course it will do so.
I just have a hard time calling data storage and retrieval (and even computation at a cellular level) "thinking". But I'm not David Chalmers.
posted by symbioid at 8:28 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
I am pro-non-human sentience (for those that we can seem to indicate like some (all?) cetaceans, great apes, octopuses, etc)... I am not sure about a pan-psychism, though I've a friend who apparently buys into it.
I do think as long as systems can form complex iterations of a signal through time (and record it on whatever it is able to as a substrate, in whatever encoding it may be), in a way that helps its survival of course it will do so.
I just have a hard time calling data storage and retrieval (and even computation at a cellular level) "thinking". But I'm not David Chalmers.
posted by symbioid at 8:28 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
a disturbing guy who electrocuted starfish
If Frank were alive today, there'd be an album in here.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 11:27 PM on January 18 [4 favorites]
If Frank were alive today, there'd be an album in here.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 11:27 PM on January 18 [4 favorites]
I mean, it has long been the case that (a) mystics tend to perceive deeper truths about the state of reality than rationalists have fully demonstrated to be the case, and that (b) mystics are absolutely terrible about rigorously examining said perceived truths.
Was it Watson or Crick who realized the double-helix shape of DNA while on acid? But the acid trip wasn't what won them the Nobel Prize.
A little bit of woo goes a long way towards reminding the otherwise-rational not to be myopic, dismissive, and incurious. And the genuine scientific study that suggests there's truth behind what mystics have been saying for millennia is really cool, in a way that mysticism by its nature cannot be!
Or, as Emily Dickinson put it:
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 11:28 PM on January 18 [25 favorites]
Was it Watson or Crick who realized the double-helix shape of DNA while on acid? But the acid trip wasn't what won them the Nobel Prize.
A little bit of woo goes a long way towards reminding the otherwise-rational not to be myopic, dismissive, and incurious. And the genuine scientific study that suggests there's truth behind what mystics have been saying for millennia is really cool, in a way that mysticism by its nature cannot be!
Or, as Emily Dickinson put it:
“Faith” is a fine inventionI am too much of a Science Dummy to know exactly what this research does or doesn't imply, so neither want to leap to too ecstatic or too meager a conclusion, but one way or another, this is neat! I'm excited for scientists to pursue new hypotheses based on this and I'm excited for mystics to find fascinating speculative correlations between this and other things and I'm excited for whomever takes this article as an excuse to wonder, to speculate, and to dream.
For Gentlemen who see!
But Microscopes are prudent
In an Emergency!
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 11:28 PM on January 18 [25 favorites]
I just have a hard time calling data storage and retrieval (and even computation at a cellular level) "thinking".
I still have a hard time calling it "Information Technology".
posted by Cardinal Fang at 11:28 PM on January 18 [3 favorites]
I still have a hard time calling it "Information Technology".
posted by Cardinal Fang at 11:28 PM on January 18 [3 favorites]
Hell is you're with James Watson and Robert Shockley tripping ETERNALLY
posted by away for regrooving at 11:50 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
posted by away for regrooving at 11:50 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
there's a seeker born every minue
posted by philip-random at 11:51 PM on January 18 [4 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 11:51 PM on January 18 [4 favorites]
and it happens without too much conscious thought.
Ray W.L.D. . . . I wish I had this kind of talent for literally anything
Can you drive a car while listening to the wireless? You got this.
Now, me to read the article.
posted by BobTheScientist at 12:58 AM on January 19
Ray W.L.D. . . . I wish I had this kind of talent for literally anything
Can you drive a car while listening to the wireless? You got this.
Now, me to read the article.
posted by BobTheScientist at 12:58 AM on January 19
A little bit of woo goes a long way towards reminding the otherwise-rational not to be myopic, dismissive, and incurious.
If I could favourite your comment more, I would.
I don't have the PHDs or decades of study to validate or invalidate any of the claims being put forward by the article, but I find it a fascinating read that is accessible to a weak-brained woo-y humanities graduate such as myself.
posted by slimepuppy at 1:54 AM on January 19 [4 favorites]
If I could favourite your comment more, I would.
I don't have the PHDs or decades of study to validate or invalidate any of the claims being put forward by the article, but I find it a fascinating read that is accessible to a weak-brained woo-y humanities graduate such as myself.
posted by slimepuppy at 1:54 AM on January 19 [4 favorites]
Tom Hanks may not be trustable, but that MeFites's comment deserves to be pinned to the top of this comment section for veracity.
posted by criticalyeast at 4:02 AM on January 19 [3 favorites]
posted by criticalyeast at 4:02 AM on January 19 [3 favorites]
thinking is overrated in the way the body moves through the world compared to other physical responses that we later tack stories onto
(hmmmm sounds a lot like the elevation of the US presidency in its governmental role)
posted by kokaku at 4:10 AM on January 19
(hmmmm sounds a lot like the elevation of the US presidency in its governmental role)
posted by kokaku at 4:10 AM on January 19
The scientific vindication of Jainism would be so annoying. Their veganism avoids eating potatoes and onions because they consider sprouting to be highly intelligent behavior.
Huh? As far as I know it's about not eating the parts of things that grow in the ground, because of the difficulty of harvesting them without ensuring you don't kill things living in that ground or on the roots.
(Which makes me wonder about how Jainism sees hydroponics)
posted by trig at 4:32 AM on January 19 [1 favorite]
Huh? As far as I know it's about not eating the parts of things that grow in the ground, because of the difficulty of harvesting them without ensuring you don't kill things living in that ground or on the roots.
(Which makes me wonder about how Jainism sees hydroponics)
posted by trig at 4:32 AM on January 19 [1 favorite]
The following isn't Quranic but definitely part of the theology growing up (that nowadays I wondered if it was picked up from neighbouring faith community) that supposedly on judgement day, your mouth can't speak but it's your other body parts that testify for your (mis)deeds.
That's definitely what I was reminded of when I read the fpp.
posted by cendawanita at 5:11 AM on January 19 [2 favorites]
That's definitely what I was reminded of when I read the fpp.
posted by cendawanita at 5:11 AM on January 19 [2 favorites]
A little bit of woo goes a long way towards reminding the otherwise-rational not to be myopic, dismissive, and incurious.
Yeah, perhaps I simply framed this post poorly, but when I read an article about a guy who electrically induced an eyeball to grow where no eyeballs ought to grow just by zapping it with electrical signals that matched the signals in eyes… I mean how can anyone not think that’s the coolest shit they ever heard? Or transferring the memory of fear by injecting RNA? I’m not trying to organize a group singalong of Paint With All The Colors Of The Wind here I’m just - the part about potential cancer treatments is exciting right?
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:26 AM on January 19 [14 favorites]
Yeah, perhaps I simply framed this post poorly, but when I read an article about a guy who electrically induced an eyeball to grow where no eyeballs ought to grow just by zapping it with electrical signals that matched the signals in eyes… I mean how can anyone not think that’s the coolest shit they ever heard? Or transferring the memory of fear by injecting RNA? I’m not trying to organize a group singalong of Paint With All The Colors Of The Wind here I’m just - the part about potential cancer treatments is exciting right?
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:26 AM on January 19 [14 favorites]
I'm just happy to know there's at least one thinking cell in my body.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:56 AM on January 19 [3 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:56 AM on January 19 [3 favorites]
I believe "muscle memory" lives in the brain. Mahbe adhacent to our homoculus in our motor cortex - we have a distorted body mapped out in our brain (which neurosurgeons can induce response from during brain surgury). That was conventionally where your muscle memory - think at your hand to do X, and it does X without having to think about the details - was believed to live.
This doesn't look like enough to overthrow that completely. But it does make some sense that the interplay between the motor cortex and the muscle's internal memory (as described here) would change how the muscles move, like with that worm-critter.
Even something as simple as "muscle fibers on the right side of your hand are stronger" would be sufficient to be "memory" here: the same signal sent to different parts of the hand behaves differently and responds differently because the muscles are different.
Has it been settled where memory lives in our neurons even? Like, in synaptic physical positions vs some sub-cellular stable state?
posted by NotAYakk at 6:05 AM on January 19 [2 favorites]
This doesn't look like enough to overthrow that completely. But it does make some sense that the interplay between the motor cortex and the muscle's internal memory (as described here) would change how the muscles move, like with that worm-critter.
Even something as simple as "muscle fibers on the right side of your hand are stronger" would be sufficient to be "memory" here: the same signal sent to different parts of the hand behaves differently and responds differently because the muscles are different.
Has it been settled where memory lives in our neurons even? Like, in synaptic physical positions vs some sub-cellular stable state?
posted by NotAYakk at 6:05 AM on January 19 [2 favorites]
Could this explain why evolution seems more intelligent than simply survival of the fittest? For example, the eyes of fish who live in dark places -- did they randomly evolve to become larger/whiter, and the fish without that trait died off? Or did the fish somehow "try hard" to evolve a trait that helped them see better? I'm not a science/biology nerd like some of y'all, but I have often wondered if evolution was less of a "dumb" process than the prevailing theories attest.
posted by TreeHugger at 6:23 AM on January 19
posted by TreeHugger at 6:23 AM on January 19
My training as a biologist was so long ago, the writer of this thing was probably not born yet when I completed it.
When I scanned TFA, I saw breathless recounting of facts about Planaria that I learned as a child in the 1960s. It's not news that plant cells can have action potentials! To suggest that any of the phenomena that I saw in my scan has anything to do with cognition is to suggest that you have no clue what goes into cognition.
I feel perfectly safe, having scanned TFA, that it is a waste of anyone's time to actually read it.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:16 AM on January 19 [3 favorites]
When I scanned TFA, I saw breathless recounting of facts about Planaria that I learned as a child in the 1960s. It's not news that plant cells can have action potentials! To suggest that any of the phenomena that I saw in my scan has anything to do with cognition is to suggest that you have no clue what goes into cognition.
I feel perfectly safe, having scanned TFA, that it is a waste of anyone's time to actually read it.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:16 AM on January 19 [3 favorites]
guy who electrically induced an eyeball to grow where no eyeballs ought to grow just by zapping it with electrical signals that matched the signals in eyes… I mean how can anyone not think that’s the coolest shit they ever heard?
That is cool, but it’s cool because it seems to reverse cell differentiation in non-stem cells, and thus speaks to cellular plasticity being greater than at least I was taught back in my biology classes a number of years ago. Which means in the near term that we could induce cancer (… yay?), or in the long term if more research in this direction pans out that we could regrow body parts. In frogs, which are more closely related to the types of lizards that regrow their tails already. Mammals seem to have a greater degree of cell differentiation, so reversing that and getting a skin cell to become a different type of cell, then growing a whole new organ and having that be properly integrated with the brain, is probably a little more complex in mammals. But understanding the cellular mechanisms of how it happens in other animals does mean that we could also perhaps apply such knowledge to mammals in the future.
Related to the question of cognition, I think the debate here is related to the fact that emergent systems are non-intuitive to humans. A foundational article related to this is one I’ve recommended many times: Evelyn Fox Keller’s The Force of the Pacemaker Concept in Theories of Aggregation in Cellular Slime Mold. Here’s an article from 2018 on the computational abilities of slime mold. There are lots of videos about the computational and learning abilities of slime mold colonies as well. But it’s pretty clear that each individual organism in a slime mold colony is fairly dumb on its own, and I don’t think anyone has posited that a colony has any collective self-awareness.
I find it entirely believable that there are lots and lots of cases like this throughout nature. Big leaps in function are extremely unusual - changes in organisms occur through a step-by-step process of mutation. So there should be very many steps at every intermediate level between the sort of fully self-aware sentience and cognition that humans have and the completely dumb, simple rule set by which very simple single-celled organisms interact with the world.
posted by eviemath at 7:28 AM on January 19 [5 favorites]
That is cool, but it’s cool because it seems to reverse cell differentiation in non-stem cells, and thus speaks to cellular plasticity being greater than at least I was taught back in my biology classes a number of years ago. Which means in the near term that we could induce cancer (… yay?), or in the long term if more research in this direction pans out that we could regrow body parts. In frogs, which are more closely related to the types of lizards that regrow their tails already. Mammals seem to have a greater degree of cell differentiation, so reversing that and getting a skin cell to become a different type of cell, then growing a whole new organ and having that be properly integrated with the brain, is probably a little more complex in mammals. But understanding the cellular mechanisms of how it happens in other animals does mean that we could also perhaps apply such knowledge to mammals in the future.
Related to the question of cognition, I think the debate here is related to the fact that emergent systems are non-intuitive to humans. A foundational article related to this is one I’ve recommended many times: Evelyn Fox Keller’s The Force of the Pacemaker Concept in Theories of Aggregation in Cellular Slime Mold. Here’s an article from 2018 on the computational abilities of slime mold. There are lots of videos about the computational and learning abilities of slime mold colonies as well. But it’s pretty clear that each individual organism in a slime mold colony is fairly dumb on its own, and I don’t think anyone has posited that a colony has any collective self-awareness.
I find it entirely believable that there are lots and lots of cases like this throughout nature. Big leaps in function are extremely unusual - changes in organisms occur through a step-by-step process of mutation. So there should be very many steps at every intermediate level between the sort of fully self-aware sentience and cognition that humans have and the completely dumb, simple rule set by which very simple single-celled organisms interact with the world.
posted by eviemath at 7:28 AM on January 19 [5 favorites]
Here's the original press release re: growing eyes on frogs using electrical signals from 2011.
Here is a review from 2023 of all of the studies to date on that particular mechanism.
It has this to say:
The bioelectric code model has been stated as information stemming from temporal and regional patterns of signaling instructing development (Levin, 2012); this hypothesis includes both instructional and permissive signals of developmental fate decisions through regional control of differential electrical signaling across non-excitable tissues. More recently, by extending a postulate of Jaffe (Jaffe, 1981) of electrical ‘leaks’ providing positional value in a developing and regenerative system, the notion of a bioelectric ‘code’ has been extended, or shaped, to impart positional signaling within a system, such that a threshold-based readout of electrical signals may provide instructive signals for differentiation and morphogenesis (Levin and Martyniuk, 2018; Pietak and Levin, 2017). This extended bioelectric ‘code’ hypothesis would be ancillary to a broader ‘instructional’ definition, as the latter would include binary decisions between systems rather than necessitating graded or differential information. The differential read out of bioelectric signaling that leads to graded, differentiated states (Levin, 2014) remains unsubstantiated.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:30 AM on January 19 [1 favorite]
Here is a review from 2023 of all of the studies to date on that particular mechanism.
It has this to say:
The bioelectric code model has been stated as information stemming from temporal and regional patterns of signaling instructing development (Levin, 2012); this hypothesis includes both instructional and permissive signals of developmental fate decisions through regional control of differential electrical signaling across non-excitable tissues. More recently, by extending a postulate of Jaffe (Jaffe, 1981) of electrical ‘leaks’ providing positional value in a developing and regenerative system, the notion of a bioelectric ‘code’ has been extended, or shaped, to impart positional signaling within a system, such that a threshold-based readout of electrical signals may provide instructive signals for differentiation and morphogenesis (Levin and Martyniuk, 2018; Pietak and Levin, 2017). This extended bioelectric ‘code’ hypothesis would be ancillary to a broader ‘instructional’ definition, as the latter would include binary decisions between systems rather than necessitating graded or differential information. The differential read out of bioelectric signaling that leads to graded, differentiated states (Levin, 2014) remains unsubstantiated.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:30 AM on January 19 [1 favorite]
“We've been ripped from every central position we've inhabited,”
Gaia: It's about time you noticed.
Embodied cognition. This line of research seems to be reorganizing perspectives as much as opening new doors. An extraordinary theory requires extraordinary proof. I wish I had time to wait until scientists get this shit together.
However, research is already clearly looking into our being able to meddle at the molecular level, at least on purpose. I don't want to woo too much or drop snarky observations about what might possibly go wrong with tinkering with the intelligence of slime molds or clawed frogs.
Still. I now understand a bit more about the tumor that's wrapped itself around my left hepatic artery and positioned itself to metastasize so it can send its children into the bile ducts to look for a favorable place to live. Too bad the tumor doesn't realize that it'll kill the medium. I understand that, but my objectives differ from the tumor's in a truly existential way.
The poor thing is simply uninformed and doesn't know how to act. It's not to blame. So far, it's done a great job of identifying the chemicals injected into my body that are trying to kill it, trying perhaps just to send it into a dormant state and shrivel it up enough so that the surgeons in Tucson can perform a resection--an excavation, actually--to remove enough of it that I might have a chance to see the circumlunar shot, or maybe even next Christmas. The tumor, bless its little heart, has learned to grow little hairs around itself that intercept the deadly chemicals I'm sending it, but the chemicals do seem to be pissing it off. My body is sending messages to the docs, saying that I can't tolerate chemotherapy much longer. It's common knowledge that some--well, most--cancer patients die from the treatment rather than the cancer. Ironic, yes?
My doctors have another plan, though, and I don't think the little fucker is going to like it. Next week I'm going into the lead-lined donut. They will line up the gun and zap that little fucker with radiation--every day, five days a week for six weeks. That ought to knock enough starch out of that fucker that the surgeons in Tucson can do their Whipple Procedure without killing me.
I'll hang onto a little woo for a while, thank you.
posted by mule98J at 8:22 AM on January 19 [12 favorites]
Gaia: It's about time you noticed.
Embodied cognition. This line of research seems to be reorganizing perspectives as much as opening new doors. An extraordinary theory requires extraordinary proof. I wish I had time to wait until scientists get this shit together.
However, research is already clearly looking into our being able to meddle at the molecular level, at least on purpose. I don't want to woo too much or drop snarky observations about what might possibly go wrong with tinkering with the intelligence of slime molds or clawed frogs.
Still. I now understand a bit more about the tumor that's wrapped itself around my left hepatic artery and positioned itself to metastasize so it can send its children into the bile ducts to look for a favorable place to live. Too bad the tumor doesn't realize that it'll kill the medium. I understand that, but my objectives differ from the tumor's in a truly existential way.
The poor thing is simply uninformed and doesn't know how to act. It's not to blame. So far, it's done a great job of identifying the chemicals injected into my body that are trying to kill it, trying perhaps just to send it into a dormant state and shrivel it up enough so that the surgeons in Tucson can perform a resection--an excavation, actually--to remove enough of it that I might have a chance to see the circumlunar shot, or maybe even next Christmas. The tumor, bless its little heart, has learned to grow little hairs around itself that intercept the deadly chemicals I'm sending it, but the chemicals do seem to be pissing it off. My body is sending messages to the docs, saying that I can't tolerate chemotherapy much longer. It's common knowledge that some--well, most--cancer patients die from the treatment rather than the cancer. Ironic, yes?
My doctors have another plan, though, and I don't think the little fucker is going to like it. Next week I'm going into the lead-lined donut. They will line up the gun and zap that little fucker with radiation--every day, five days a week for six weeks. That ought to knock enough starch out of that fucker that the surgeons in Tucson can do their Whipple Procedure without killing me.
I'll hang onto a little woo for a while, thank you.
posted by mule98J at 8:22 AM on January 19 [12 favorites]
Good luck with the fight against your little fucker, mule98J. Here's hoping you'll still be here by the time they can stick a couple of probes in and talk some electrical sense into those overachieving lumps of flesh.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 10:33 AM on January 19 [2 favorites]
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 10:33 AM on January 19 [2 favorites]
This was the most fascinating article I've read in ages, thank you for sharing it - It's tiring how dismissive the MeFi crowd can be. Definitely jaw dropping research, no "woo" required! Feel like I need to read it again a couple more times to let it fully sink in, this shit is wild.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:59 AM on January 19 [4 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:59 AM on January 19 [4 favorites]
Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted: Was it Watson or Crick who realized the double-helix shape of DNA while on acid? But the acid trip wasn't what won them the Nobel Prize.
Rosalink Franklin calls bull on this, they knocked off her work and took credit.
For me, there's a humility about what I don't know and there's more respect for animal life having personalities and desires than our human-is-pinnacle society has time for. I'm unsurprised there's more channels to implement Turing Machines in the complexity of life, but I'm going to take that thought and recalculate my Drake Equation.
posted by k3ninho at 12:39 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]
Rosalink Franklin calls bull on this, they knocked off her work and took credit.
For me, there's a humility about what I don't know and there's more respect for animal life having personalities and desires than our human-is-pinnacle society has time for. I'm unsurprised there's more channels to implement Turing Machines in the complexity of life, but I'm going to take that thought and recalculate my Drake Equation.
posted by k3ninho at 12:39 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]
Was it Watson or Crick who realized the double-helix shape of DNA while on acid?
Maybe thinking about the inventor of polymerase chain reaction (PCR) (link to highlight at wikipedia)?
posted by msbrauer at 1:39 PM on January 19
Maybe thinking about the inventor of polymerase chain reaction (PCR) (link to highlight at wikipedia)?
posted by msbrauer at 1:39 PM on January 19
Our language and literature is full of expressions suggestive of this thing.
"I had a gut feeling", being a prime example.
I've used this very much. In part, the feelings in my body help serve as an index to memories.
And that's without even mentioning muscle memory! HAHAHAHA! I've been astounded by times I could only play a piece of music reasonably correctly, was by not paying attention, and letting my hands do the thinking. This is a known thing amongst musicians.
posted by Goofyy at 2:06 PM on January 19
"I had a gut feeling", being a prime example.
I've used this very much. In part, the feelings in my body help serve as an index to memories.
And that's without even mentioning muscle memory! HAHAHAHA! I've been astounded by times I could only play a piece of music reasonably correctly, was by not paying attention, and letting my hands do the thinking. This is a known thing amongst musicians.
posted by Goofyy at 2:06 PM on January 19
The woo crowd is gonna love this. You are right, I really do.
posted by BlunderingArtist at 3:28 AM on January 20 [2 favorites]
posted by BlunderingArtist at 3:28 AM on January 20 [2 favorites]
I mean I feel like the skill of "drawing" lives just as much in my right hand as it does in my brain, after being a pro-level artist for a quarter of a century I am at a point where I just kind of think "it would be nice for this shape there" and it happens without too much conscious thought.
This sounds more like a feature of the cerebellum than there being memory in your hands.
posted by The Bishop of Turkey at 4:55 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]
This sounds more like a feature of the cerebellum than there being memory in your hands.
posted by The Bishop of Turkey at 4:55 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]
It's incredible how many of you have solved the hard problem of consciousness.
posted by betaray at 8:23 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]
posted by betaray at 8:23 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]
You say "solved" the problem of consciousness, betaray, but I read it as "made harder and more confusing."
posted by k3ninho at 8:38 AM on January 21
posted by k3ninho at 8:38 AM on January 21
The following isn't Quranic
I have to call out myself: It is! That was me badly recollecting a verse that's usually translated as: 'on the Day their tongues, hands, and feet will testify against them for what they used to do.'
posted by cendawanita at 8:39 PM on January 25
I have to call out myself: It is! That was me badly recollecting a verse that's usually translated as: 'on the Day their tongues, hands, and feet will testify against them for what they used to do.'
posted by cendawanita at 8:39 PM on January 25
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posted by showbiz_liz at 3:00 PM on January 18 [5 favorites]