Prefer the problems of community to the problems of not having community
February 13, 2024 10:01 PM Subscribe
An Examination of Non-traditional Friendships. Ezra Klein talks with Rhaina Cohen in a wide-ranging conversation about Western friendship conventions; how we don't have words for rich platonic friendship; how these friendships can be the basis for healthy child-rearing; the high expectations of marriage culture; the loneliness epidemic.
EZRA KLEIN: What happened to drain so much of the ardor out of friendship? Male friendship and female friendship alike but I think even more male friendship. I think it’s still quite common for female friends to profess a kind of love to each other. It’s not that common for male friends.
RHAINA COHEN: Yeah. I think seeing some of this history is astonishing to a lot of people and often requires a whole string of context and caveats because it is so unfamiliar to our eyes and ears. One of the letters that I cite here as from the 1700s, where this man was talking about his heart, like his physical heart, which was not in good condition. And he was like, however, soon soever my feeble heart shall stop. Its last pulsation shall vibrate for you. That sounds like a love letter to a lot of us now, but I don’t actually think, contextually, we have any reason to believe that was necessarily about romantic or sexual love.
And, as different historians have put it, it was not understood in the past that in order to love someone you also had to lust after them. And [the] big factor that matters here is that there were not these categories of homosexuality and heterosexuality as we understand it now, as these fixed identities, homosexuality being stigmatized. So it was very possible for men to say and do all sorts of things that we now code as sexual.
RHAINA COHEN: Yeah. I think seeing some of this history is astonishing to a lot of people and often requires a whole string of context and caveats because it is so unfamiliar to our eyes and ears. One of the letters that I cite here as from the 1700s, where this man was talking about his heart, like his physical heart, which was not in good condition. And he was like, however, soon soever my feeble heart shall stop. Its last pulsation shall vibrate for you. That sounds like a love letter to a lot of us now, but I don’t actually think, contextually, we have any reason to believe that was necessarily about romantic or sexual love.
And, as different historians have put it, it was not understood in the past that in order to love someone you also had to lust after them. And [the] big factor that matters here is that there were not these categories of homosexuality and heterosexuality as we understand it now, as these fixed identities, homosexuality being stigmatized. So it was very possible for men to say and do all sorts of things that we now code as sexual.
So is cocaine. And homophobes on cocaine? Forget about it.
posted by Keith Talent at 10:35 PM on February 13 [5 favorites]
posted by Keith Talent at 10:35 PM on February 13 [5 favorites]
As mainstream homophobia had decreased I absolutely notice a trend of younger men being perfectly comfortable telling each other they love them. Also being physically affectionate and playful. I saw some sort of dumb prank thing where they were offering men $x to ring a friend and say I love you with no context. Twenty something guys were just going "hey Bob, I love you" and Bob was responding "aw man, I love you too!"
posted by Iteki at 11:53 PM on February 13 [11 favorites]
posted by Iteki at 11:53 PM on February 13 [11 favorites]
Bros. They can not see each other for a year or two, but can immediately start up where they left off. It's a positive in my eyes.
posted by Czjewel at 1:27 AM on February 14 [5 favorites]
posted by Czjewel at 1:27 AM on February 14 [5 favorites]
Acephobia is a thing here too - I live with my male best friend (I just realised I maybe should start calling him HypotheticalHousemate on the blue...) and it's taken years for people to get used to the idea that we're *not* dating. I mean, yeah, we hug each other a lot because we don't want to die of touch starvation, and he gives me massages because I get terrible back pains, but seriously, get you a friend who'll work the knots out of your shoulders for you.
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 2:23 AM on February 14 [21 favorites]
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 2:23 AM on February 14 [21 favorites]
Homophobia is a hell of a drug.
Even when it's not actually homophobic.
posted by 2N2222 at 4:42 AM on February 14
Even when it's not actually homophobic.
posted by 2N2222 at 4:42 AM on February 14
Oh, man. Have gay people made life harder for straight people by refusing to be oppressed anymore?
The horror.
I think Alexander Avila summed things up well in this video essay from a couple of years ago: The Crisis Of Male Friendship.
posted by MrVisible at 5:13 AM on February 14 [2 favorites]
The horror.
I think Alexander Avila summed things up well in this video essay from a couple of years ago: The Crisis Of Male Friendship.
posted by MrVisible at 5:13 AM on February 14 [2 favorites]
I liked that this was a really wide ranging conversation that touches on platonic life partners, male friendship, having friends as proxy uncles and aunts for kids, housemates, and communal living. It's felt like polyamory has been the topic du jour this past month in various media channels, and this felt like a good way to delve into nontraditional relationships without falling into the usual "polyamory vs monogamy" tropes. I especially like Cohen's observation that we have over indexed on defining love around eros ("passion") and undervalued agape ("self sacrifice")
I was born in the Philippines and one of my favorite memories of childhood were Sunday dinners at my maternal grandparents. Basically, every Sunday my grandmother had an open house for all of her kids and grandkids and we'd go over, eat food, hang out with cousins, and be teased or spoiled by our aunts and uncles. It was a very palpable loss when we emigrated and that family was on the other side of an ocean.
Over the last year or so, some friends of our have been inviting us over to a monthly shabbat dinner. They're in an open marriage, and have a three year old. I have known the husband for nigh on 30 years now; and our bond is platonic but we actually do hold some parts of each other's heart. The wife's partner is also married and has two kids. The shabbat crowd also includes two other pairs of parents with their children and a couple pairs of child free folks like ourselves. So, as you can imagine, it's a pretty crowded and noisy time with adults chatting, kids playing, and parents parenting. But it was fascinating to watch how the parents load balanced their duties. Like, every kid trusted every parent there to soothe them, tend to them, or direct them, and every parent kind of knew what each kid's particular boundaries and needs were or were able to confer with the kid's actual parents what was ok. So as a result, parents tended to be a lot less stressed as they tagged in and tagged out of child caring duties during the night. Like one set of parents would watch the kids set up an elaborate play, another set would handle dinner overwatch, another did bath time, another did sleepover story reading and the ones off duty could just relax.
This is the closest thing I have ever seen to a functional set of aunts and uncles made from found/chosen families; and is the closest thing I have had to replace the Sundays with my grandparents. Such a fascinating and gratifying dynamic to be a part of.
posted by bl1nk at 5:35 AM on February 14 [35 favorites]
I was born in the Philippines and one of my favorite memories of childhood were Sunday dinners at my maternal grandparents. Basically, every Sunday my grandmother had an open house for all of her kids and grandkids and we'd go over, eat food, hang out with cousins, and be teased or spoiled by our aunts and uncles. It was a very palpable loss when we emigrated and that family was on the other side of an ocean.
Over the last year or so, some friends of our have been inviting us over to a monthly shabbat dinner. They're in an open marriage, and have a three year old. I have known the husband for nigh on 30 years now; and our bond is platonic but we actually do hold some parts of each other's heart. The wife's partner is also married and has two kids. The shabbat crowd also includes two other pairs of parents with their children and a couple pairs of child free folks like ourselves. So, as you can imagine, it's a pretty crowded and noisy time with adults chatting, kids playing, and parents parenting. But it was fascinating to watch how the parents load balanced their duties. Like, every kid trusted every parent there to soothe them, tend to them, or direct them, and every parent kind of knew what each kid's particular boundaries and needs were or were able to confer with the kid's actual parents what was ok. So as a result, parents tended to be a lot less stressed as they tagged in and tagged out of child caring duties during the night. Like one set of parents would watch the kids set up an elaborate play, another set would handle dinner overwatch, another did bath time, another did sleepover story reading and the ones off duty could just relax.
This is the closest thing I have ever seen to a functional set of aunts and uncles made from found/chosen families; and is the closest thing I have had to replace the Sundays with my grandparents. Such a fascinating and gratifying dynamic to be a part of.
posted by bl1nk at 5:35 AM on February 14 [35 favorites]
I love how open and affectionate male friendship can be now, compared to when I was a kid. At that time, at least in the places I lived, homosocial contact was impoverished and largely forbidden. If you were to hug a friend, everyone would have jumped in with homophobic slurs and jokes at the very least, so people just didn't do it. I can't remember ever hugging another guy friend until maybe in my early twenties. (The story that Klein tells in the article about being lonely in school but it not being ok to hold a friend's hand gets at exactly this kind of impoverishment.)
Then, in my twenties, I lived for a while in a country where people were much freer in terms of touch, with hugging and often cheek kissing when arriving and departing for both men and women, and I had to get over my discomfort and ended up really appreciating it.
Now, it is so common to hug when meeting up with someone or saying goodbye, and I hear younger guys saying nice and nurturing things to each other all the time, in ways that never happened when I was that age. It's not perfect now by any means, but it is so much better now and I love the change.
Oh, man. Have gay people made life harder for straight people by refusing to be oppressed anymore?
To me, it seems like the reverse, where gay people refusing to be oppressed has created space for all kinds of things that were frowned on previously. At least in my reading of the article, they don't seem to be making that argument, either.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:51 AM on February 14 [17 favorites]
Then, in my twenties, I lived for a while in a country where people were much freer in terms of touch, with hugging and often cheek kissing when arriving and departing for both men and women, and I had to get over my discomfort and ended up really appreciating it.
Now, it is so common to hug when meeting up with someone or saying goodbye, and I hear younger guys saying nice and nurturing things to each other all the time, in ways that never happened when I was that age. It's not perfect now by any means, but it is so much better now and I love the change.
Oh, man. Have gay people made life harder for straight people by refusing to be oppressed anymore?
To me, it seems like the reverse, where gay people refusing to be oppressed has created space for all kinds of things that were frowned on previously. At least in my reading of the article, they don't seem to be making that argument, either.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:51 AM on February 14 [17 favorites]
Wayne's World, man.
posted by ovvl at 7:25 AM on February 14 [1 favorite]
posted by ovvl at 7:25 AM on February 14 [1 favorite]
Link to her book: The Other Significant Others. Anne Helen Petersen has an interview with Cohen today on Culture Study as well.
posted by biblioPHL at 8:07 AM on February 14 [2 favorites]
posted by biblioPHL at 8:07 AM on February 14 [2 favorites]
Oh, man. Have gay people made life harder for straight people by refusing to be oppressed anymore?
What? That is like the complete polar opposite of what people are saying.
Cosigning that the men in my cohort are pretty comfortable expressing emotions and affection with each other. Not at all uncommon for them to take their leave at the bar by saying "love you guys, see you soon." Lotta hugs, lotta over the top (like, a bit tongue in cheek, but also true) declarations of adoration.
It's a very urban and progressive cohort, though, for what it's worth.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:57 AM on February 14 [2 favorites]
What? That is like the complete polar opposite of what people are saying.
Cosigning that the men in my cohort are pretty comfortable expressing emotions and affection with each other. Not at all uncommon for them to take their leave at the bar by saying "love you guys, see you soon." Lotta hugs, lotta over the top (like, a bit tongue in cheek, but also true) declarations of adoration.
It's a very urban and progressive cohort, though, for what it's worth.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:57 AM on February 14 [2 favorites]
I absolutely notice a trend of younger men being perfectly comfortable telling each other they love them. Also being physically affectionate and playful.
There is hope!
Over the past few years I have been watching how men in Kdramas and in KPOP groups like BTS show their love for each other:
BTS and Platonic Touching: Why We Need Better Representations of Male Friendships in Media (2019)
Meanwhile, here in my US world, I have found that the strangers who approach me when they see my BTS shirt are *always* young men! (I am 72 years old, btw, so the, 'You like BTS,too!" is probably not a pick-up line ... apologies to all who assume all BTS/Kpop/kdrama fans are teen girls, LOL!) BTS ARMYs (fans) gush over the many videos of the Bangtan boys cuddling, especially Kim Taehyung (V) who is famous for snuggling in bed with his "Wooga" (a 'family' of 5 famous Korean actors, rappers & singers)
I wondered if this is a 'Korean thing', but Kenji Kumagai (a popular korean 'cultural translator') says that skinship among males in Korea is rare (except in 'Idol culture'). Still, he also comments on other 'gender norms' among young men in Korea, such as wearing makeup, cooking for women, and 'Soft Boys' -- those who have broken away from toxic masculinity.
... 'Bro Love' is spreading! ... even beyond the young ...
Chris Martin (Coldplay) speaks passionately about his love for the gentle, loving, huggy-ness of BTS guys.
posted by Surfurrus at 9:32 AM on February 14 [4 favorites]
There is hope!
Over the past few years I have been watching how men in Kdramas and in KPOP groups like BTS show their love for each other:
BTS and Platonic Touching: Why We Need Better Representations of Male Friendships in Media (2019)
Meanwhile, here in my US world, I have found that the strangers who approach me when they see my BTS shirt are *always* young men! (I am 72 years old, btw, so the, 'You like BTS,too!" is probably not a pick-up line ... apologies to all who assume all BTS/Kpop/kdrama fans are teen girls, LOL!) BTS ARMYs (fans) gush over the many videos of the Bangtan boys cuddling, especially Kim Taehyung (V) who is famous for snuggling in bed with his "Wooga" (a 'family' of 5 famous Korean actors, rappers & singers)
I wondered if this is a 'Korean thing', but Kenji Kumagai (a popular korean 'cultural translator') says that skinship among males in Korea is rare (except in 'Idol culture'). Still, he also comments on other 'gender norms' among young men in Korea, such as wearing makeup, cooking for women, and 'Soft Boys' -- those who have broken away from toxic masculinity.
... 'Bro Love' is spreading! ... even beyond the young ...
Chris Martin (Coldplay) speaks passionately about his love for the gentle, loving, huggy-ness of BTS guys.
posted by Surfurrus at 9:32 AM on February 14 [4 favorites]
>> Sorry ... links!
BTS and Platonic Touching: Why We Need Better Representations of Male Friendships in Media (2019)
Chris Martin (Coldplay) speaks passionately about his love for the gentle, loving, huggy-ness of BTS guys.
posted by Surfurrus at 9:50 AM on February 14 [1 favorite]
BTS and Platonic Touching: Why We Need Better Representations of Male Friendships in Media (2019)
Chris Martin (Coldplay) speaks passionately about his love for the gentle, loving, huggy-ness of BTS guys.
posted by Surfurrus at 9:50 AM on February 14 [1 favorite]
"I wondered if this is a 'Korean thing', but Kenji Kumagai (a popular korean 'cultural translator') says that skinship among males in Korea is rare"
I don't think that's true unless things have changed in the last few years? Even aside from the queerbaiting in Kpop, same-sex friendships in S Korea in my experience are pretty touchy-feely. Granted, that's just my experience, but I was curious enough about it a decade ago to do some reading up on it, and everything I read at the time confirmed that to be true. Maybe things have changed there among young people in the last decade, but what you're saying was not what I witnessed or what Korean people and people who look into that kind of thing were saying a decade ago.
posted by JR06 at 12:41 PM on February 14 [1 favorite]
I don't think that's true unless things have changed in the last few years? Even aside from the queerbaiting in Kpop, same-sex friendships in S Korea in my experience are pretty touchy-feely. Granted, that's just my experience, but I was curious enough about it a decade ago to do some reading up on it, and everything I read at the time confirmed that to be true. Maybe things have changed there among young people in the last decade, but what you're saying was not what I witnessed or what Korean people and people who look into that kind of thing were saying a decade ago.
posted by JR06 at 12:41 PM on February 14 [1 favorite]
One of my best friends and I have invested the past few Saturdays in working through the freshmen-year organic chemistry needed to extract a particular tryptamine from a particular plant that grows near our respective homes.
After countless hours spent studying (on our own, and together at the kitchen table) - additional hours spent wasted studying the intricacies of our new equipment, testing pH values, carefully adding and subtracting solvents and doing a billion other tasks, we were finally able to toast the gods and the Shulgins and sit for a spell, completely ensorceled by the precious little genie we'd tenaciously coaxed out of the earth.
Smiling, our fists were drawn together, one to the other like lodestones under the weight of a great and holy mountain, into a gentle bump. Paralyzed, our mouths slightly agape, we stared at each other, peering toward the living icon of god like into a mirror, each from the corner of our own eye... and then,
unbidden, the spirit drew forth breath and shaped it into words as we both spoke simultaneously the precious little benediction. "I love you man."
Male friendship can be a quiet, glacial thing. It can speak without sound. It is rare.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 1:30 PM on February 14 [6 favorites]
After countless hours spent studying (on our own, and together at the kitchen table) - additional hours spent wasted studying the intricacies of our new equipment, testing pH values, carefully adding and subtracting solvents and doing a billion other tasks, we were finally able to toast the gods and the Shulgins and sit for a spell, completely ensorceled by the precious little genie we'd tenaciously coaxed out of the earth.
Smiling, our fists were drawn together, one to the other like lodestones under the weight of a great and holy mountain, into a gentle bump. Paralyzed, our mouths slightly agape, we stared at each other, peering toward the living icon of god like into a mirror, each from the corner of our own eye... and then,
unbidden, the spirit drew forth breath and shaped it into words as we both spoke simultaneously the precious little benediction. "I love you man."
Male friendship can be a quiet, glacial thing. It can speak without sound. It is rare.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 1:30 PM on February 14 [6 favorites]
It's earnest verging on cheesy sometimes but I've been delighted by the We Love You Instagram for showcasing vulnerability and friendship between a couple of Gen Z guys, and today they have a Valentine's day post about telling your friends that you love them! (I hope this is viewable for people not logged in to IG.)
posted by rivenwanderer at 1:43 PM on February 14 [1 favorite]
posted by rivenwanderer at 1:43 PM on February 14 [1 favorite]
I think so much of male identity is tied up with work and competition that men find it hard to calaborate on non-practical activities.
posted by Narrative_Historian at 6:08 PM on February 14
posted by Narrative_Historian at 6:08 PM on February 14
« Older The Name of This Cartoon Would Ruin It | "Marry, here's grace and a cod-piece; that's a... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:16 PM on February 13 [17 favorites]