Boeing whistleblower John Barnett found dead in US
March 12, 2024 4:45 PM Subscribe
Reported by the BBC. "The Charleston County coroner confirmed his death to the BBC on Monday. It said the 62-year-old had died from a "self-inflicted" wound on 9 March and police were investigating. [...] At the time of his death, Mr Barnett had been in Charleston for legal interviews linked to that case. Last week, he gave a formal deposition in which he was questioned by Boeing's lawyers, before being cross-examined by his own counsel. He had been due to undergo further questioning on Saturday. When he did not appear, enquiries were made at his hotel. He was subsequently found dead in his truck in the hotel car park."
Barnett had been giving whistleblower testimony since 2017. Never before has it been as high profile as this year, though.
posted by billjings at 4:56 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
posted by billjings at 4:56 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
i'm reminded of this 2017 AskMe: Does movie hitman stuff happen in real life?
posted by glonous keming at 5:00 PM on March 12 [8 favorites]
posted by glonous keming at 5:00 PM on March 12 [8 favorites]
Wow, that's just really sad.
posted by suelac at 5:15 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
posted by suelac at 5:15 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
This is bananapants and suspicious as hell. Self-inflicted, my foot.
posted by Kitteh at 5:17 PM on March 12 [6 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 5:17 PM on March 12 [6 favorites]
John Oliver Boeing segment from 9 days ago provides a lot of general context about Boeing and all the shit that whistles have been blown about...
posted by stevil at 5:18 PM on March 12 [16 favorites]
posted by stevil at 5:18 PM on March 12 [16 favorites]
Same hippybear.
I used to travel a lot when I was younger. It was fun, it was glamorous, I was naive!
Then we had 9/11 and the subsequent endless infuriating security theater through that enormous waste of tax payer money called TSA.
And then I began to realize that flying was my single biggest contribution to climate change.
And THEN, covid and the awareness of all the germiness of my fellow humans trapped in a sardine can hurtling the skies.
And now, this.
I don't have family far away, I don't have a job that requires flying, so I am fairly content just opting out of flying.
posted by birdsongster at 5:25 PM on March 12 [26 favorites]
I used to travel a lot when I was younger. It was fun, it was glamorous, I was naive!
Then we had 9/11 and the subsequent endless infuriating security theater through that enormous waste of tax payer money called TSA.
And then I began to realize that flying was my single biggest contribution to climate change.
And THEN, covid and the awareness of all the germiness of my fellow humans trapped in a sardine can hurtling the skies.
And now, this.
I don't have family far away, I don't have a job that requires flying, so I am fairly content just opting out of flying.
posted by birdsongster at 5:25 PM on March 12 [26 favorites]
On the other hand, he was probably under the worst stress of his life. As for the company calling a hit what more could they possibly have been trying to stop him from saying, and surely Boeing lawyers etc knew this would look shady. Now a lone company guy going nuts and trying to be clever and shooting him, that I’d buy.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 5:26 PM on March 12 [20 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 5:26 PM on March 12 [20 favorites]
So someone gets deposed by opposing counsel and then he winds up mysteriously dead days later before he can testify again?
Jesus Christ I didn’t realize they were willing to openly murder to win this case.
posted by corb at 5:26 PM on March 12 [24 favorites]
Jesus Christ I didn’t realize they were willing to openly murder to win this case.
posted by corb at 5:26 PM on March 12 [24 favorites]
Frankly, I'm surprised at the number of people who seem to think that Boeing ordered a hit on this guy. A priori, that seems extremely unlikely to me.
I've seen people say things like "Boeing was willing to kill hundreds of people with lax safety standards; what's one more person?" But this completely disregards the legal and psychological context. Having lax safety standards, especially behind the corporate veil, is not inherently illegal, and certainly not the same thing as murder. Likewise, the psychological experience of "Well, surely we don't need to spend *that* much money on safety; what could possibly go wrong?" is very different from "This guy knows too much; he needs to be dead."
I'm not saying that Boeing has no responsibility here. They're responsible for there being a reason to blow the whistle in the first place, and they're probably responsible for aggressive retaliation. And a company that retaliates against safety whistleblowers is unlikely to be a company that takes safety seriously, so I don't think it's irrational to see this and feel less comfortable flying Boeing. But I just don't think it's likely that Boeing higher-ups had any direct role in this.
posted by nosewings at 5:27 PM on March 12 [46 favorites]
I've seen people say things like "Boeing was willing to kill hundreds of people with lax safety standards; what's one more person?" But this completely disregards the legal and psychological context. Having lax safety standards, especially behind the corporate veil, is not inherently illegal, and certainly not the same thing as murder. Likewise, the psychological experience of "Well, surely we don't need to spend *that* much money on safety; what could possibly go wrong?" is very different from "This guy knows too much; he needs to be dead."
I'm not saying that Boeing has no responsibility here. They're responsible for there being a reason to blow the whistle in the first place, and they're probably responsible for aggressive retaliation. And a company that retaliates against safety whistleblowers is unlikely to be a company that takes safety seriously, so I don't think it's irrational to see this and feel less comfortable flying Boeing. But I just don't think it's likely that Boeing higher-ups had any direct role in this.
posted by nosewings at 5:27 PM on March 12 [46 favorites]
Also if it was a hit, it would seem to be a bit of a whoopsie given that he's already testified in this case (and has been a whistleblower for years).
posted by Rhaomi at 5:33 PM on March 12 [13 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 5:33 PM on March 12 [13 favorites]
I've seen people say things like "Boeing was willing to kill hundreds of people with lax safety standards; what's one more person?"
Boeing also make products to kill hundreds of people on purpose.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:34 PM on March 12 [35 favorites]
Boeing also make products to kill hundreds of people on purpose.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:34 PM on March 12 [35 favorites]
Having lax safety standards, especially behind the corporate veil, is not inherently illegal
Having lax safety standards is definitely illegal in many cases, especially in highly regulated industries such as air travel.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:45 PM on March 12 [36 favorites]
Having lax safety standards is definitely illegal in many cases, especially in highly regulated industries such as air travel.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:45 PM on March 12 [36 favorites]
I can barely believe it was a hit -- barely -- but for me it honestly strains credulity.
You wanna know what doesn't?
"Hi, Mr. Barnett. Boeing here. Here are all our high-priced lawyers. They're going to use every trick in the book to make sure you're stuck in court (and resulting legal debt) for the rest of your natural life. Defamation and libel are only the start of the legal argy-bargy we're going to pull on you."
I hope they forensic the hell out of poor Barnett's email and phone.
RIP, Mr. Barnett, sir. You were a real one. Boeing knew they couldn't buy you because you had integrity. So I'm betting they hurt you instead, one way or another. I'm sorry as hell it worked.
And yeah, no, I won't fly any more either, these days.
posted by humbug at 5:45 PM on March 12 [59 favorites]
You wanna know what doesn't?
"Hi, Mr. Barnett. Boeing here. Here are all our high-priced lawyers. They're going to use every trick in the book to make sure you're stuck in court (and resulting legal debt) for the rest of your natural life. Defamation and libel are only the start of the legal argy-bargy we're going to pull on you."
I hope they forensic the hell out of poor Barnett's email and phone.
RIP, Mr. Barnett, sir. You were a real one. Boeing knew they couldn't buy you because you had integrity. So I'm betting they hurt you instead, one way or another. I'm sorry as hell it worked.
And yeah, no, I won't fly any more either, these days.
posted by humbug at 5:45 PM on March 12 [59 favorites]
Which is to say, they killed him one way or the other. Even if it's not the cool movie version of offing a whistleblower.
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:48 PM on March 12 [12 favorites]
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:48 PM on March 12 [12 favorites]
It doesn't matter if he's already testified, the hit can still be a warning to the next person who's thinking about testifying. This is super shady.
posted by subdee at 5:50 PM on March 12 [21 favorites]
posted by subdee at 5:50 PM on March 12 [21 favorites]
Maybe it's just me but this also reminds me of how the military has killed my friends, even years after they thought they were done and free.
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:51 PM on March 12 [34 favorites]
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:51 PM on March 12 [34 favorites]
If you really can't see how Boeing would murder somebody with literally billions of dollars at stake, I mean, grow up. People get murdered over wallets full of fives and ones. "Surely an upstanding group like the Boeing Corporation wouldn't stoop to ending a human life!!" Get real, lol.
This man was under extreme stress and may have killed himself. It is naive beyond belief not to suspect murder.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:06 PM on March 12 [18 favorites]
This man was under extreme stress and may have killed himself. It is naive beyond belief not to suspect murder.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:06 PM on March 12 [18 favorites]
His hotel room must've been on the first floor, huh
posted by drinkyclown at 6:08 PM on March 12 [7 favorites]
posted by drinkyclown at 6:08 PM on March 12 [7 favorites]
Finished the final episode of the American Octopus documentary on Netflix the other night and pulled out my phone to this breaking news report so I’m having a pretty hard time believing it’s suicide.
posted by youthenrage at 6:10 PM on March 12 [4 favorites]
posted by youthenrage at 6:10 PM on March 12 [4 favorites]
Certainly doesn't help Boeing, given all the lax/shady shit they've been up to of late.
IS THE STOCK PRICE RISING???
posted by Windopaene at 6:14 PM on March 12 [4 favorites]
IS THE STOCK PRICE RISING???
posted by Windopaene at 6:14 PM on March 12 [4 favorites]
Oh, I definitely don't think anything even vaguely resembling ethics would have stopped Boeing from ordering a hit. They ain't got none of that ethics stuff no more.
I just think the lawyer way is simpler, cheaper, more deniable, and harder to get in legal trouble over even if they're found out.
Arguably it's even more evil, for that matter. If Boeing was feeling vengeful...
posted by humbug at 6:16 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
I just think the lawyer way is simpler, cheaper, more deniable, and harder to get in legal trouble over even if they're found out.
Arguably it's even more evil, for that matter. If Boeing was feeling vengeful...
posted by humbug at 6:16 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
It definitely stretches credulity to think that Boeing called a hit. Alternatively, there is plenty of evidence that individual fights against large institutions rarely end well for the Hero Protagonist, no matter how many times you’ve watched Erin Brokovitch. They have a tendency to grind people down to nothing.
Occam’s razor, folks.
posted by simra at 6:17 PM on March 12 [21 favorites]
Occam’s razor, folks.
posted by simra at 6:17 PM on March 12 [21 favorites]
My interpretation, as somebody with some legal experience and experience serving on a board: sociopathic individuals think in hitmen, sociopathic corporations think in lawyers.
Because corporations exist beyond a human lifespan of years. Lawyers and litigation and countersuits and SLAPP suits are like water eroding limestone- if you grind a man down with stress and red tape, it goes unnoticed.
Meanwhile, hiring a hitman is human thinking. Fast, loud results. Which is why we typically hear about it the most with divorcees and ex-significant others who are the most common people to get tripped up by www.rentahitman.com or the FBI- they're emotionally frazzled people seeking a noisy dramatic severance.
So I suppose this is my way of saying that the hit is less likely, or if it was, it's not going to be a big all-of-boeing board conspiracy, but a much smaller conspiracy of one guy.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 6:24 PM on March 12 [29 favorites]
Because corporations exist beyond a human lifespan of years. Lawyers and litigation and countersuits and SLAPP suits are like water eroding limestone- if you grind a man down with stress and red tape, it goes unnoticed.
Meanwhile, hiring a hitman is human thinking. Fast, loud results. Which is why we typically hear about it the most with divorcees and ex-significant others who are the most common people to get tripped up by www.rentahitman.com or the FBI- they're emotionally frazzled people seeking a noisy dramatic severance.
So I suppose this is my way of saying that the hit is less likely, or if it was, it's not going to be a big all-of-boeing board conspiracy, but a much smaller conspiracy of one guy.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 6:24 PM on March 12 [29 favorites]
the lawyer way is sometimes inadequate because lawyers can’t keep you from making word sounds come out of your mouth nor can they keep you from making word shapes come out of your fingers
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 6:37 PM on March 12 [8 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 6:37 PM on March 12 [8 favorites]
Boeing would never assassinate a testifying whistleblower. Now, McDonnell Douglas, on the other hand…
posted by gelfin at 6:42 PM on March 12 [12 favorites]
posted by gelfin at 6:42 PM on March 12 [12 favorites]
Barnett's death early Saturday is bookended by Boeing admitting in a letter to Congress, on Friday, that it can't find records for work done on the door panel of the Alaska Airlines plane, and the report, on Saturday afternoon, of the DOJ opening an investigation into that matter. Three years ago, Boeing paid more than $2.5 billion to resolve a DOJ investigation.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:48 PM on March 12 [11 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:48 PM on March 12 [11 favorites]
The idea that a military contractor took out a hit on a guy in a hotel room is reasonable unless you've actually worked with military contractors. It would minimum involve a twenty-five person email chain and a couple of charge numbers just to find somebody willing to contact his buddy that might be interested in performing this service.
On the other hand, the fact he started talking in 2017 adds credibility - It probably took seven years of nonsense to get the institutional ball rolling.
posted by Orb2069 at 7:02 PM on March 12 [20 favorites]
On the other hand, the fact he started talking in 2017 adds credibility - It probably took seven years of nonsense to get the institutional ball rolling.
posted by Orb2069 at 7:02 PM on March 12 [20 favorites]
I find the "being a whsitleblower is a hard row to hoe and the personality traits that lead one to become a whistleblower probably make life tough in other ways" explanation very credible.
But, nonetheless, please, please consider giving up air travel, or at least reserve it for last-chance-to-visit-a-dying-relative circumstances.
posted by pullayup at 7:31 PM on March 12 [9 favorites]
But, nonetheless, please, please consider giving up air travel, or at least reserve it for last-chance-to-visit-a-dying-relative circumstances.
posted by pullayup at 7:31 PM on March 12 [9 favorites]
So someone gets deposed by opposing counsel and then he winds up mysteriously dead days later before he can testify again?
You assassinate someone before they're deposed, not after. Now they're stuck with (presumably) unfavorable testimony from him, and they can't try to grind him down at trial.
Whistleblowers are often difficult personalities, because it takes someone willing to go against the grain to do it. And it's stressful as hell. Unusual behavior is not uncommon.
posted by praemunire at 7:34 PM on March 12 [17 favorites]
You assassinate someone before they're deposed, not after. Now they're stuck with (presumably) unfavorable testimony from him, and they can't try to grind him down at trial.
Whistleblowers are often difficult personalities, because it takes someone willing to go against the grain to do it. And it's stressful as hell. Unusual behavior is not uncommon.
posted by praemunire at 7:34 PM on March 12 [17 favorites]
Epstein (#doublestrike) Barnett didn't kill himself
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 7:46 PM on March 12
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 7:46 PM on March 12
Alternatively, there is plenty of evidence that individual fights against large institutions rarely end well for the Hero Protagonist, no matter how many times you’ve watched Erin Brokovitch. They have a tendency to grind people down to nothing.
The conclusion I've come to after reading about police and church and chess club whistleblowers is that there is a crazy-making set of institutional responses that's very effective at driving people over the edge.
There are all sorts of techniques to isolate you from family and friends, to convince other people that you're mentally ill, to appear to be addressing the issues while doing everything to prevent them from being addressed, to quietly lobby government and the press to shut you down, to stonewall, to tell you to report via the "proper" channels while making it clear that those channels will do everything they can to stop you so that you give up while they can claim they gave you every chance to speak, to let you know that they'll spend years grinding you down to nothing.
It's enough to make any normal person act crazy, and then they say, "See, they're crazy, don't believe them!"
It can be very effective.
posted by clawsoon at 7:49 PM on March 12 [26 favorites]
The conclusion I've come to after reading about police and church and chess club whistleblowers is that there is a crazy-making set of institutional responses that's very effective at driving people over the edge.
There are all sorts of techniques to isolate you from family and friends, to convince other people that you're mentally ill, to appear to be addressing the issues while doing everything to prevent them from being addressed, to quietly lobby government and the press to shut you down, to stonewall, to tell you to report via the "proper" channels while making it clear that those channels will do everything they can to stop you so that you give up while they can claim they gave you every chance to speak, to let you know that they'll spend years grinding you down to nothing.
It's enough to make any normal person act crazy, and then they say, "See, they're crazy, don't believe them!"
It can be very effective.
posted by clawsoon at 7:49 PM on March 12 [26 favorites]
You assassinate someone before they're deposed, not after. Now they're stuck with (presumably) unfavorable testimony from him, and they can't try to grind him down at trial.
What, like you've never had a client go off and do something stupid that you wouldn't have advised?
My bet is that the attorneys passed it back to Boeing that this testimony was likely going to be very damaging to them, and some hotshot at Boeing thought he had a solution.
posted by corb at 7:53 PM on March 12 [7 favorites]
What, like you've never had a client go off and do something stupid that you wouldn't have advised?
My bet is that the attorneys passed it back to Boeing that this testimony was likely going to be very damaging to them, and some hotshot at Boeing thought he had a solution.
posted by corb at 7:53 PM on March 12 [7 favorites]
Deposition hadn't concluded - Barnett was two days in.
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:53 PM on March 12 [7 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:53 PM on March 12 [7 favorites]
Barnett's death early Saturday is bookended by Boeing admitting in a letter to Congress, on Friday, that it can't find records for work done on the door panel of the Alaska Airlines plane
Hmmmmmm... that's not what I heard back in January:
Hmmmmmm... that's not what I heard back in January:
All of this conversation is documented in increasingly aggressive posts in the SAT, but finally we get to the damning entry which reads something along the lines of “coordinating with the doors team to determine if the door will have to be removed entirely, or just opened. If it is removed then a Removal will have to be written.” Note: a Removal is a type of record in CMES that requires formal sign off from QA that the airplane been restored to drawing requirements.posted by clawsoon at 7:54 PM on March 12 [11 favorites]
If you have been paying attention to this situation closely, you may be able to spot the critical error: regardless of whether the door is simply opened or removed entirely, the 4 retaining bolts that keep it from sliding off of the door stops have to be pulled out. A removal should be written in either case for QA to verify install, but as it turns out, someone (exactly who will be a fun question for investigators) decides that the door only needs to be opened, and no formal Removal is generated in CMES (the reason for which is unclear, and a major process failure).
Therefore, in the official build records of the airplane, a pressure seal that cannot be accessed without opening the door (and thereby removing retaining bolts) is documented as being replaced, but the door is never officially opened and thus no QA inspection is required.
This entire sequence is documented in the SAT, and the nonconformance records in CMES address the damaged rivets and pressure seal, but at no point is the verification job reopened, or is any record of removed retention bolts created, despite it this being a physical impossibility. Finally with Spirit completing their work to Boeing QAs satisfaction, the two rivet-related records in CMES are stamped complete, and the SAT closed on 19 September 2023. No record or comment regarding the retention bolts is made.
Right, that was an insider's comments on an aviation blog; here's the "official" saga leading up to that Friday letter, with lots of Boeing stonewalling, at the .gov site of Sen. Cantwell (D-Wash). On Friday, "Boeing Executive Vice President Ziad Ojakli told U.S. Senator Maria Cantwell in the letter, 'We have looked extensively and have not found any such documentation' and that the planemaker's working hypothesis was 'the documents required by our processes were not created when the door plug was opened.'"
Barnett filed complaints with Boeing starting in 2014, sought whistleblower protection in 2017, and also retired in 2017 (after working for over three decades as a quality control engineer and manager). Some sites are reporting that a silver handgun and a note were found in the truck.
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:09 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
Barnett filed complaints with Boeing starting in 2014, sought whistleblower protection in 2017, and also retired in 2017 (after working for over three decades as a quality control engineer and manager). Some sites are reporting that a silver handgun and a note were found in the truck.
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:09 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
From Al Jazeera yesterday:
Boeing’s woes continue as 50 injured on Australia-New Zealand flight
Dozens of people have been injured by what officials described as a “strong movement” on a Chilean flight from Australia to New Zealand. In a statement on Monday, Chilean LATAM Airlines blamed the injuries on “a technical event during the flight which caused a strong movement”. It is just the latest in a series of safety-related incidents to feature a Boeing plane.
Passengers were met by paramedics when the LATAM Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner touched down in Auckland. It was not immediately clear what caused the incident. About 50 people were treated at the scene, mostly for mild injuries. Twelve were taken to hospital, an ambulance spokesperson said, with one believed to be in serious condition.
It is been a turbulent week for Boeing, with the US plane maker suffering a series of safety-related issues.
On March 4, an engine fire forced a Boeing 737 to make an emergency landing in Houston, Texas shortly after takeoff. United Airlines said the engine ingested some plastic bubble wrap that was on the airfield prior to departure.
Two days later, fumes in the cabin of a Boeing 737-800 forced an emergency landing in Portland, Oregon.
On Thursday, a tyre fell off a Boeing 777-200 after takeoff in San Francisco, destroying a car. The plane was bound for Japan but diverted to Los Angeles where it landed safely.
A day later, a Boeing 737 MAX rolled off the runway in Houston and got stuck in grass.
posted by mediareport at 8:16 PM on March 12 [9 favorites]
Boeing’s woes continue as 50 injured on Australia-New Zealand flight
Dozens of people have been injured by what officials described as a “strong movement” on a Chilean flight from Australia to New Zealand. In a statement on Monday, Chilean LATAM Airlines blamed the injuries on “a technical event during the flight which caused a strong movement”. It is just the latest in a series of safety-related incidents to feature a Boeing plane.
Passengers were met by paramedics when the LATAM Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner touched down in Auckland. It was not immediately clear what caused the incident. About 50 people were treated at the scene, mostly for mild injuries. Twelve were taken to hospital, an ambulance spokesperson said, with one believed to be in serious condition.
It is been a turbulent week for Boeing, with the US plane maker suffering a series of safety-related issues.
On March 4, an engine fire forced a Boeing 737 to make an emergency landing in Houston, Texas shortly after takeoff. United Airlines said the engine ingested some plastic bubble wrap that was on the airfield prior to departure.
Two days later, fumes in the cabin of a Boeing 737-800 forced an emergency landing in Portland, Oregon.
On Thursday, a tyre fell off a Boeing 777-200 after takeoff in San Francisco, destroying a car. The plane was bound for Japan but diverted to Los Angeles where it landed safely.
A day later, a Boeing 737 MAX rolled off the runway in Houston and got stuck in grass.
posted by mediareport at 8:16 PM on March 12 [9 favorites]
This detailed article from the Australian ABC news site back in January has a lot of good backstory, including discussing towards the bottom the complicity of the FAA in allowing Boeing to cut corners for so long with little to no pushback from U.S. regulators. It quotes Barnett and others about the management greed and stupidity that continue to cause trouble. It's a long piece but worth reading.
Corporate Crime Reporter's story about Barnett's death links back to an interview they did with him in 2019, which is also worth a read:
“They started pressuring us to not document defects, to work outside the procedures, to allow defective material to be installed without being corrected. They started bypassing procedures and not maintaining configurement control of airplanes, not maintaining control of non conforming parts – they just wanted to get the planes pushed out the door and make the cash register ring.” [...]
“After I filed my complaint, I was reassigned...They isolated me from the other quality managers. I was basically by myself...They were constantly denigrating me. I was in a hostile work environment. Nothing I could do was right."
Scroll down for the horrifying bits about the titanium slivers.
posted by mediareport at 8:38 PM on March 12 [12 favorites]
Corporate Crime Reporter's story about Barnett's death links back to an interview they did with him in 2019, which is also worth a read:
“They started pressuring us to not document defects, to work outside the procedures, to allow defective material to be installed without being corrected. They started bypassing procedures and not maintaining configurement control of airplanes, not maintaining control of non conforming parts – they just wanted to get the planes pushed out the door and make the cash register ring.” [...]
“After I filed my complaint, I was reassigned...They isolated me from the other quality managers. I was basically by myself...They were constantly denigrating me. I was in a hostile work environment. Nothing I could do was right."
Scroll down for the horrifying bits about the titanium slivers.
posted by mediareport at 8:38 PM on March 12 [12 favorites]
But, nonetheless, please, please consider giving up air travel, or at least reserve it for last-chance-to-visit-a-dying-relative circumstances.
Scolding airline travelers, which are normal people, doesn't fix airplanes.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 8:47 PM on March 12 [30 favorites]
Scolding airline travelers, which are normal people, doesn't fix airplanes.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 8:47 PM on March 12 [30 favorites]
the vast majority contribution to climate change due to flying is made by the rich in their private jets. your vacation decisions don’t make a difference.
posted by sineater at 9:33 PM on March 12 [4 favorites]
posted by sineater at 9:33 PM on March 12 [4 favorites]
It's not a bad idea to avoid flying for safety reasons or at least try to get an Airbus flight.
posted by emjaybee at 9:38 PM on March 12 [5 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 9:38 PM on March 12 [5 favorites]
I haven't flown in over a decade. Four big blood clots in my leg have stopped that. So I drive. And I know, that may be worse, but if I'm not crossing an ocean, yeah no. Because, I love driving through the west. And don't want any security theater bullshit, (other than those cops in Kansas who want to stop me to search me for weed). (Just past Russel, KS on I-70, hope you don't have Washington plates on your rental car, Stopped twice. Totally trying to bust me for weed... Can't imagine how Colorado plates would have went, thought that would have made no sense).
I remember when Boeing was what drove Seattle. And now, yikes. They are letting us down with their capitalism failures. Just such management failures. No actual safety procedure checks during production? WTF? Using a hotel key card to check the fit of a door on the exterior of an airplane...? No thank you.
posted by Windopaene at 9:48 PM on March 12 [5 favorites]
I remember when Boeing was what drove Seattle. And now, yikes. They are letting us down with their capitalism failures. Just such management failures. No actual safety procedure checks during production? WTF? Using a hotel key card to check the fit of a door on the exterior of an airplane...? No thank you.
posted by Windopaene at 9:48 PM on March 12 [5 favorites]
I saw this comment on Mastodon and it feels like it is worth sharing in its entirety.
"The Boeing whistleblower's death is tragedy but i think its easy to slip into conspiracy-mindedness ("omg Boeing knocked him off like one of their doors") and miss the likelier and honestly more horrible reality.posted by vac2003 at 9:52 PM on March 12 [85 favorites]
being a whistleblower is a fucking nightmare. the capitalist, corporatist structures of our society are built to make the lives of anyone who stands up against the oligarchs a living fucking hell, especially when it's someone who actually might have something devastating to reveal.
there is something deeply, horribly, vastly despair-inducing about being a whistleblower. you can't talk about half of the things in your head to anyone because the last thing you want is to let something slip that hurts the case; but you also don't want to keep things completely silent because you know the press won't give a shit unless it's juicy. you dont want to drag your loved ones into the mental hell you're in because, even if you aren't paranoid about their lives getting ruined too, you often dont want to burden them with the shit you know. at every turn, at every junction, justice is delayed because Corporation A filed a legal flim-flam that pushes the hearing out another three months because their lawyer's toenails apparently needed to be verified before entering the courtroom. nothing happens except your finances wilt away and your lawyers remind you that justice is rarely something that happens in these cases and you start questioning yourself in every tiny manner.
it is a grim way to live. people sip briefly from that cup and end up institutionalized. the Boeing whistleblower has been drinking from it for years.
"Boeing bumped off a whistleblower" is a neat, tidy theory that invents a discrete Bad Dude twirling his moustache.
"Society treats whistleblowers so badly they kill themselves before the corporations get a chance to do so" is far more uncomfortable."
I had an online class with a whistle-blower and she said she had ruined her life by doing so. You can't ever get a job again, chances of getting justice are slim to none.
The one surprise here if it wasn't murder is that he didn't wait for his testimony to end first...but it smells too much like fictional movie plots to me, except real.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:10 PM on March 12 [4 favorites]
The one surprise here if it wasn't murder is that he didn't wait for his testimony to end first...but it smells too much like fictional movie plots to me, except real.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:10 PM on March 12 [4 favorites]
Related is the eBay stalking scandal
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay_stalking_scandal
posted by Mr. Papagiorgio at 11:08 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay_stalking_scandal
posted by Mr. Papagiorgio at 11:08 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
I buy the institutional threats/social ostracism explanation for stressing out an individual. But that also makes me realize, a lot of the social media has pinned the cause on Boeing company and its CEO leadership. My reasoning is analogous. It's the economic foundations that Boeing exists on and evolves over this trajectory of enshittification. So perhaps we could say that structural reasons stress out people to the point of suicide; meanwhile, they also create bad corporations and leaders. This doesn't take away the agency of CEOs or companies, but it explains how they come to exist: it is the capitalism--that unfortunately we are all a part of--that causes enshittification as a process.
posted by polymodus at 12:03 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 12:03 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
"Boeing bumped off a whistleblower" is a neat, tidy theory that invents a discrete Bad Dude twirling his moustache.
"Society treats whistleblowers so badly they kill themselves before the corporations get a chance to do so" is far more uncomfortable."
‘Society’ didn’t torture this man. Boeing did that. They chose to. They didn’t have to. They have lobbied to be able to.
Whether his life was ended by his own hand or someone else’s, Boeing still killed him.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:04 AM on March 13 [26 favorites]
"Society treats whistleblowers so badly they kill themselves before the corporations get a chance to do so" is far more uncomfortable."
‘Society’ didn’t torture this man. Boeing did that. They chose to. They didn’t have to. They have lobbied to be able to.
Whether his life was ended by his own hand or someone else’s, Boeing still killed him.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:04 AM on March 13 [26 favorites]
Related: Honest Government Ad - A message to whistleblowers.
posted by davidwitteveen at 2:57 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
posted by davidwitteveen at 2:57 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
Y'all think a company that can't build a plane right managed to fake a suicide well enough to fool the Charleston County coroner's office?
posted by Optamystic at 4:08 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
posted by Optamystic at 4:08 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Y'all think a company that can't build a plane right managed to fake a suicide well enough to fool the Charleston County coroner's office?
Considering how hard the government of SC lobbied to get Boeing to move there, I suspect there isn’t much motivation to look too hard at this. I still think Boeing hounded him to death rather than actually murdering him, but suspect there will always be unanswered questions.
posted by TedW at 5:24 AM on March 13 [9 favorites]
Considering how hard the government of SC lobbied to get Boeing to move there, I suspect there isn’t much motivation to look too hard at this. I still think Boeing hounded him to death rather than actually murdering him, but suspect there will always be unanswered questions.
posted by TedW at 5:24 AM on March 13 [9 favorites]
Occam’s razor, folks.
I don't think Occam's razor really applies here. There aren't exactly a lot of additional assumptions involved in the murder scenario than the suicide one.
People have been murdered for opposing government and corporate interests in the past, and they will be in the future. There isn't remotely enough information available to say what happened in this case at this point. There may never be.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:15 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
I don't think Occam's razor really applies here. There aren't exactly a lot of additional assumptions involved in the murder scenario than the suicide one.
People have been murdered for opposing government and corporate interests in the past, and they will be in the future. There isn't remotely enough information available to say what happened in this case at this point. There may never be.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:15 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
There is no possibility that this wasn’t a hit and it’s absurd to see so many commenters here contort themselves into knots to believe otherwise.
Do you read about a star witness at a Mafia trial “committing suicide” and think “poor guy, what a crazy coincidence”.
Y'all think a company that can't build a plane right managed to fake a suicide well enough to fool the Charleston County coroner's office?
Building a plane is hard. Paying people lots of money to keep quiet isn’t.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:46 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
Do you read about a star witness at a Mafia trial “committing suicide” and think “poor guy, what a crazy coincidence”.
Y'all think a company that can't build a plane right managed to fake a suicide well enough to fool the Charleston County coroner's office?
Building a plane is hard. Paying people lots of money to keep quiet isn’t.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:46 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
I remember when Boeing was what drove Seattle. And now, yikes. They are letting us down with their capitalism failures.
Multiple folks have noted the change in Boeing's culture after the merger with McDonnell-Douglas. Engineers were sidelined in favor of accountants and ex-military folks making important decisions, which got worse and worse over the decades. This article from 2020, The 1997 merger that paved the way for the Boeing 737 Max crisis, is a good overview:
“The fatal fault line was the McDonnell Douglas takeover,” says Clive Irving, author of Jumbo: The Making of the Boeing 747. “Although Boeing was supposed to take over McDonnell Douglas, it ended up the other way around.”
posted by mediareport at 6:47 AM on March 13 [9 favorites]
Multiple folks have noted the change in Boeing's culture after the merger with McDonnell-Douglas. Engineers were sidelined in favor of accountants and ex-military folks making important decisions, which got worse and worse over the decades. This article from 2020, The 1997 merger that paved the way for the Boeing 737 Max crisis, is a good overview:
“The fatal fault line was the McDonnell Douglas takeover,” says Clive Irving, author of Jumbo: The Making of the Boeing 747. “Although Boeing was supposed to take over McDonnell Douglas, it ended up the other way around.”
posted by mediareport at 6:47 AM on March 13 [9 favorites]
He was done with enemy counsel's examination and halfway through his own lawyer's.
I pretty firmly believe that an incompetent exec panicked and tried an extremely clumsy coverup.
posted by Slackermagee at 6:56 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
I pretty firmly believe that an incompetent exec panicked and tried an extremely clumsy coverup.
posted by Slackermagee at 6:56 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Building a plane is hard. Paying people lots of money to keep quiet isn’t.
Are you suggesting the the coroner's office is in on the "hit"? I hope no whistleblowers work there. Otherwise the they're gonna have to cover up two suicides. I also hope no do-gooders/nosy neighbors, accountants, or church members notice the large influx of wealth suddenly acquired by a bunch of lowly public officials, otherwise the "suicide" rate of Charlston County is gonna absolutely skyrocket.
posted by Optamystic at 7:59 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
Are you suggesting the the coroner's office is in on the "hit"? I hope no whistleblowers work there. Otherwise the they're gonna have to cover up two suicides. I also hope no do-gooders/nosy neighbors, accountants, or church members notice the large influx of wealth suddenly acquired by a bunch of lowly public officials, otherwise the "suicide" rate of Charlston County is gonna absolutely skyrocket.
posted by Optamystic at 7:59 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
It doesn't need to be a buy out. How many people worked on the planes vs blew the whistle? 1000-1? How many people locally would blow the whistle if they knew everything, had no doubts, and also had no family to provide for?
One hand washes the other, people know what side their bread is buttered on (SC Boeing plant mentioned above), and people might not be that clued in to the news. So a guy gets labeled as a troublemaker and it gets passed off as his life catching up with him. No conspiracy required on that end, just the usual American process (though we usually see it via the justice system).
posted by Slackermagee at 8:39 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
One hand washes the other, people know what side their bread is buttered on (SC Boeing plant mentioned above), and people might not be that clued in to the news. So a guy gets labeled as a troublemaker and it gets passed off as his life catching up with him. No conspiracy required on that end, just the usual American process (though we usually see it via the justice system).
posted by Slackermagee at 8:39 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
Well now we know where Kate Middleton's been, anyway. Or should I say...Special Agent Cricket Jumper
posted by bartleby at 9:00 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
posted by bartleby at 9:00 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
Boeing is a publicly-traded company. The set of people with direct monetary incentive to influence the stock price is huge.
posted by swr at 9:17 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
posted by swr at 9:17 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
There is no possibility that this wasn’t a hit and it’s absurd to see so many commenters here contort themselves into knots to believe otherwise.
I'm kind of sad to see this sort of conspiracy thinking on Metafilter. The actual odds on "Boeing decided to kill a whistleblower 7 years along" vs "Boeing made their lives miserable and threatened even worse, leading to depression and suicide" is heavily on the latter. As someone above said, giant corporations generally think lawyers not hitmen when they want to destroy someone. Sure, it's not strange to *consider* if it have been murder, but going around announcing that it must have been is.
posted by tavella at 9:24 AM on March 13 [16 favorites]
I'm kind of sad to see this sort of conspiracy thinking on Metafilter. The actual odds on "Boeing decided to kill a whistleblower 7 years along" vs "Boeing made their lives miserable and threatened even worse, leading to depression and suicide" is heavily on the latter. As someone above said, giant corporations generally think lawyers not hitmen when they want to destroy someone. Sure, it's not strange to *consider* if it have been murder, but going around announcing that it must have been is.
posted by tavella at 9:24 AM on March 13 [16 favorites]
While yes, people do commit suicide betimes, and while yes, those people sometimes commit suicide unexpectedly and without any apparent cause, and yes there are coincidences, I think it's foolhardy to believe that Boeing is innocent here.
ESPECIALLY in light of how suspiciously quickly the police moved to declare it a suicide and not even bother opening any investigation. Any and all evidence that might exist if it had been a hit is doubtless now tainted, gone, and worthless.
It's like how after Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin we knew the fix was in because no one even took photos of the crime scene until days later after the rain had a chance to wash away any traces of what happened.
We know the fix is in here because the police basically pulled up, looked at the still warm corpse of the star witness against Boeing, and said "yup, he sure committed suicide, no need to check anything else!"
We live in a world where Daphne Anne Caruana Galizia was murdered in broad daylight for her role in publishing the Panama Papers and... nothing happened. We live in a world where we are told that Gary Webb, whistleblower on the CIA's program to ruin Black communities by importing drugs, committed suicide by shooting himself in the back of the head twice. We live in a world where an MI6 agent was found locked into a suitcase and was declared a suicide. We live in a world where Epstein somehow, like magic, committed suicide despite being on a 24/7 suicide watch. We live in a world where we are told that the Alabama pigs were TOTALLY not responsible for the death of Sandra Bland and that there would be no investigation because she clearly committed suicide while in their custody on trumped up charges from a power mad pig.
So no, I do not think it's impossible that Boeing killed Barnett. Maybe they didn't, it's possible. But in any case like this there must be a really through, public, investigation if for no other reason than to allay suspicion and prove that the powerful entity those "suicides" were exposing actually was innocent of any wrongdoing.
But no one even made the most laughable attempt to investigate. Which makes it look like a coverup.
posted by sotonohito at 9:27 AM on March 13 [20 favorites]
ESPECIALLY in light of how suspiciously quickly the police moved to declare it a suicide and not even bother opening any investigation. Any and all evidence that might exist if it had been a hit is doubtless now tainted, gone, and worthless.
It's like how after Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin we knew the fix was in because no one even took photos of the crime scene until days later after the rain had a chance to wash away any traces of what happened.
We know the fix is in here because the police basically pulled up, looked at the still warm corpse of the star witness against Boeing, and said "yup, he sure committed suicide, no need to check anything else!"
We live in a world where Daphne Anne Caruana Galizia was murdered in broad daylight for her role in publishing the Panama Papers and... nothing happened. We live in a world where we are told that Gary Webb, whistleblower on the CIA's program to ruin Black communities by importing drugs, committed suicide by shooting himself in the back of the head twice. We live in a world where an MI6 agent was found locked into a suitcase and was declared a suicide. We live in a world where Epstein somehow, like magic, committed suicide despite being on a 24/7 suicide watch. We live in a world where we are told that the Alabama pigs were TOTALLY not responsible for the death of Sandra Bland and that there would be no investigation because she clearly committed suicide while in their custody on trumped up charges from a power mad pig.
So no, I do not think it's impossible that Boeing killed Barnett. Maybe they didn't, it's possible. But in any case like this there must be a really through, public, investigation if for no other reason than to allay suspicion and prove that the powerful entity those "suicides" were exposing actually was innocent of any wrongdoing.
But no one even made the most laughable attempt to investigate. Which makes it look like a coverup.
posted by sotonohito at 9:27 AM on March 13 [20 favorites]
basically, like, russia's not the only country with oligarchs who dispose of people they find inconvenient. there's nothing uniquely clean about big american money.
was dude murdered? i dunno. but there's no particular reason to believe that an american company at the heart of the military-industrial complex wouldn't do a murder. lawyers can make someone's life hell, but they can't seal a person's mouth nearly as reliably as death can.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:53 AM on March 13 [10 favorites]
was dude murdered? i dunno. but there's no particular reason to believe that an american company at the heart of the military-industrial complex wouldn't do a murder. lawyers can make someone's life hell, but they can't seal a person's mouth nearly as reliably as death can.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:53 AM on March 13 [10 favorites]
There is no possibility that this wasn’t a hit and it’s absurd to see so many commenters here contort themselves into knots to believe otherwise.
Seconding tavella.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:59 AM on March 13 [7 favorites]
Seconding tavella.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:59 AM on March 13 [7 favorites]
lawyers can make someone's life hell, but they can't seal a person's mouth nearly as reliably as death can.
Waiting until after seven years of whistleblowing is not a particularly effective way to stop information transfer.
posted by tavella at 10:12 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Waiting until after seven years of whistleblowing is not a particularly effective way to stop information transfer.
posted by tavella at 10:12 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
But I just don't think it's likely that Boeing higher-ups had any direct role in this.
Exactly:
Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?
Sotonohito's comment points out how 'suicide' can be really really effective in making a problem disappear. Once the 'problem' is gone, the news coverage ceases, the mess has a greater chance of a satisfactory solution for the accused, life goes on.
.
John Barnett
May his memory be a blessing.
posted by BlueHorse at 10:14 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Exactly:
Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?
Sotonohito's comment points out how 'suicide' can be really really effective in making a problem disappear. Once the 'problem' is gone, the news coverage ceases, the mess has a greater chance of a satisfactory solution for the accused, life goes on.
.
John Barnett
May his memory be a blessing.
posted by BlueHorse at 10:14 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
It's not a "Mafia trial." No one at Boeing is facing criminal charges. They were going to have to write a check.
Impossible that he was murdered? Of course not. Nothing's impossible. That they waited seven years and then murdered him just after preserving his testimony? (*) Quite unlikely.
(*) For those of you who don't know, and maybe it might be a good idea to know this before pronouncing confidently on the matter, deposition testimony is technically hearsay but is generally admissible if the witness is "unavailable" (including because they're in the ground). Further, during depositions, lawyers do not confine themselves to eliciting facts that are good for them, as at trial. The primary goal is to tie the witness to one, highly detailed, version of their story (**), so they can't swerve later. In many cases, the witness's own counsel (or the state) will ask no questions at all afterwards. That's not universal, but I'd be very surprised to hear that the Boeing lawyers didn't get the vast bulk of his story during the deposition.
(**) Another thing to be aware of, though it's less clear it applies here, is that whistleblowers are rarely the guys "in the room where it happened" and more often the value of their testimony (which is still substantial) lies in bringing the problem to the authorities in the first place and identifying documents and other witnesses.
posted by praemunire at 10:22 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
Impossible that he was murdered? Of course not. Nothing's impossible. That they waited seven years and then murdered him just after preserving his testimony? (*) Quite unlikely.
(*) For those of you who don't know, and maybe it might be a good idea to know this before pronouncing confidently on the matter, deposition testimony is technically hearsay but is generally admissible if the witness is "unavailable" (including because they're in the ground). Further, during depositions, lawyers do not confine themselves to eliciting facts that are good for them, as at trial. The primary goal is to tie the witness to one, highly detailed, version of their story (**), so they can't swerve later. In many cases, the witness's own counsel (or the state) will ask no questions at all afterwards. That's not universal, but I'd be very surprised to hear that the Boeing lawyers didn't get the vast bulk of his story during the deposition.
(**) Another thing to be aware of, though it's less clear it applies here, is that whistleblowers are rarely the guys "in the room where it happened" and more often the value of their testimony (which is still substantial) lies in bringing the problem to the authorities in the first place and identifying documents and other witnesses.
posted by praemunire at 10:22 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
Once the 'problem' is gone, the news coverage ceases
Except that the news coverage has not been driven by his testimony, but by planes nosediving into the earth and bits of them falling off midair. The social media images of terrified passengers staring at a gaping hole in the side of their plane had far more impact in terms of destroying trust in Boeing planes than anything John Barnett ever said.
posted by tavella at 10:26 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
Except that the news coverage has not been driven by his testimony, but by planes nosediving into the earth and bits of them falling off midair. The social media images of terrified passengers staring at a gaping hole in the side of their plane had far more impact in terms of destroying trust in Boeing planes than anything John Barnett ever said.
posted by tavella at 10:26 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
The problem also is, everyone in America who wants a gun can get one. So it's not at all impossible that someone (possibly someone who had or was going to get fired and take heat for this) had a gun +motive + opportunity. You don't need to hire a hitman for that to happen.
Now, was the gun Barnett's? That would bolster the suicide evidence. I haven't seen that, or anything at all in terms of evidence, in public statements. The lack of any detail is what makes this more suspicious.
posted by emjaybee at 10:47 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
Now, was the gun Barnett's? That would bolster the suicide evidence. I haven't seen that, or anything at all in terms of evidence, in public statements. The lack of any detail is what makes this more suspicious.
posted by emjaybee at 10:47 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
I think the comments pushing back on this very obvious murder is a case of "can't happen here".
If this were a story from Russia, or China, or any other "bad" country I would put good money down that none of these commenters decrying conspiracies would hesitate for a moment to accept that this person had been killed. A whistleblower at an important Russian airline company/defense contractor suddenly "commits suicide" out of the blue as scrutiny in the company is ramping up? None of you would doubt for a single second what happened.
Yet because this is America some people recoil from accepting that our powers that be aren't so different.
Waiting until after seven years of whistleblowing is not a particularly effective way to stop information transfer.
It's a pretty effective way to make anyone else think twice about doing so, though.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:14 AM on March 13 [11 favorites]
If this were a story from Russia, or China, or any other "bad" country I would put good money down that none of these commenters decrying conspiracies would hesitate for a moment to accept that this person had been killed. A whistleblower at an important Russian airline company/defense contractor suddenly "commits suicide" out of the blue as scrutiny in the company is ramping up? None of you would doubt for a single second what happened.
Yet because this is America some people recoil from accepting that our powers that be aren't so different.
Waiting until after seven years of whistleblowing is not a particularly effective way to stop information transfer.
It's a pretty effective way to make anyone else think twice about doing so, though.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:14 AM on March 13 [11 favorites]
I'm kind of sad to see this sort of conspiracy thinking on Metafilter. The actual odds on "Boeing decided to kill a whistleblower 7 years along" vs "Boeing made their lives miserable and threatened even worse, leading to depression and suicide" is heavily on the latter.
I would be really interested in anyone who could put forward a way to calculate "the odds" in this sort of scenario.
I think this has a lot more to do with perceptions of American elites than it does with any actual analysis of probabilities.
The cases of Babita Deokaran and Karen Silkwood among others indicate the dangers of whistleblowing against corporations with government ties.
In this case it might well turn out to be suicide, but pre-emptively declaring that to be the case isn't any less irrational than immediately declaring foul play.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:39 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
I would be really interested in anyone who could put forward a way to calculate "the odds" in this sort of scenario.
I think this has a lot more to do with perceptions of American elites than it does with any actual analysis of probabilities.
The cases of Babita Deokaran and Karen Silkwood among others indicate the dangers of whistleblowing against corporations with government ties.
In this case it might well turn out to be suicide, but pre-emptively declaring that to be the case isn't any less irrational than immediately declaring foul play.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:39 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I have seen zero evidence — nothing more than pure speculation and conspiracy theory — that this was murder.
Meanwhile, depression and attempted suicide among whistleblowers is well researched and documented. Here is a study saying 10% of whistleblowers attempt suicide. Here’s another documenting broader mental health conditions. Unfortunately, it’s not an extraordinary claim to say that Mr. Barnett, after years of extreme pressure, died by suicide.
That’s why it’s not equally rational to state, without evidence, that it’s murder as opposed to suicide. I’m disappointed to see so many people on this thread say otherwise. I think it reflects either naiveté about how terrible it is to be a whistleblower, or an implicit prejudice that somehow Mr. Barnett dying by suicide is less tragic, or Boeing less morally culpable, than if there were a murder.
posted by alligatorpear at 12:20 PM on March 13 [6 favorites]
Meanwhile, depression and attempted suicide among whistleblowers is well researched and documented. Here is a study saying 10% of whistleblowers attempt suicide. Here’s another documenting broader mental health conditions. Unfortunately, it’s not an extraordinary claim to say that Mr. Barnett, after years of extreme pressure, died by suicide.
That’s why it’s not equally rational to state, without evidence, that it’s murder as opposed to suicide. I’m disappointed to see so many people on this thread say otherwise. I think it reflects either naiveté about how terrible it is to be a whistleblower, or an implicit prejudice that somehow Mr. Barnett dying by suicide is less tragic, or Boeing less morally culpable, than if there were a murder.
posted by alligatorpear at 12:20 PM on March 13 [6 favorites]
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I have seen zero evidence — nothing more than pure speculation and conspiracy theory — that this was murder.
That corporate violence is perceived as an extraordinary claim reveals a particular perspective. It starts from the assumption that US corporations and their government partners don't do that sort of thing, or don't do it here. That might be the case, or it might not, but it is that difference in worldview and not rejection of some clear line of logical inference responsible for the difference in weighting of the possible interpretations.
Right now we just don't know enough to say what happened. There is not, as far as I know at the time of writing, any evidence presented to prove suicide or murder. Making either assumption is more about how you think the world works than anything in the actual events at hand.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:29 PM on March 13 [4 favorites]
That corporate violence is perceived as an extraordinary claim reveals a particular perspective. It starts from the assumption that US corporations and their government partners don't do that sort of thing, or don't do it here. That might be the case, or it might not, but it is that difference in worldview and not rejection of some clear line of logical inference responsible for the difference in weighting of the possible interpretations.
Right now we just don't know enough to say what happened. There is not, as far as I know at the time of writing, any evidence presented to prove suicide or murder. Making either assumption is more about how you think the world works than anything in the actual events at hand.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:29 PM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Y'all think a company that can't build a plane right managed to fake a suicide well enough to fool the Charleston County coroner's office?
I’d just like to point out for those not intimately familiar with death, that coroners offices do not do massive investigative work when they think a suicide is plausible and they don’t have reason to think otherwise. They take the body away and clean it up and often take the simplest explanation. Extraordinary measures only take place on TV.
posted by corb at 12:35 PM on March 13 [8 favorites]
I’d just like to point out for those not intimately familiar with death, that coroners offices do not do massive investigative work when they think a suicide is plausible and they don’t have reason to think otherwise. They take the body away and clean it up and often take the simplest explanation. Extraordinary measures only take place on TV.
posted by corb at 12:35 PM on March 13 [8 favorites]
That corporate violence is perceived as an extraordinary claim reveals a particular perspective. It starts from the assumption that US corporations and their government partners don't do that sort of thing, or don't do it here.
No, it assumes that corporate murder is rarer than whistleblower suicide. That’s because there is plenty of evidence of the latter and evidence of the former is rare. If you don’t agree, or think the lack of evidence of widespread corporate-ordered hits on American soil is irrelevant (because good hit men don’t get caught), then there is not much anyone can say to convince you otherwise. But the logic is the same as something like “no one can prove that there’s no invisible Flying Spaghetti Monster, so it’s equally rational to say there is one as not.”
posted by alligatorpear at 12:59 PM on March 13 [4 favorites]
No, it assumes that corporate murder is rarer than whistleblower suicide. That’s because there is plenty of evidence of the latter and evidence of the former is rare. If you don’t agree, or think the lack of evidence of widespread corporate-ordered hits on American soil is irrelevant (because good hit men don’t get caught), then there is not much anyone can say to convince you otherwise. But the logic is the same as something like “no one can prove that there’s no invisible Flying Spaghetti Monster, so it’s equally rational to say there is one as not.”
posted by alligatorpear at 12:59 PM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Suggesting that corporate violence is an "extraordinary claim" on the level of space monsters does not follow from it being "rarer". Even if suicides of whistleblowers are more common that murders, asserting that this particular case is one or the other is premature.
People are murdered for opposing corporations all the time. Coca-cola used death squads to deal with union organizers. The history of the labor movement is soaked with the blood of the victims of business interests. To say "it absolutely can't be the case in this instance" is an assumption, based on no evidence at all.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:30 PM on March 13 [12 favorites]
People are murdered for opposing corporations all the time. Coca-cola used death squads to deal with union organizers. The history of the labor movement is soaked with the blood of the victims of business interests. To say "it absolutely can't be the case in this instance" is an assumption, based on no evidence at all.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:30 PM on March 13 [12 favorites]
In the interest of not turning the comments into a back and forth, I'll drop out here. Have a good rest of your day!
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:51 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:51 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
Again, if people are murdered *in the US* for opposing *US corporations* all the time, surely people can produce examples more recent than 50 years ago? Because as debated in this Ask Me, there is not much in the way of modern examples beyond people who made the Mafia mad. US corporations do lots of evil shit! They harass whistleblowers in all sorts of ways! But they do not have a recent history of murdering them. Going "but people get killed for it in Malta! South Africa!" does not make your case for the US.
Sure, it's within the realm of possibility that they will start to do this on the reg in our ever encroaching fascism. But a whistleblower who has been talking for the last seven years and whose testimony is even recorded in an affidavit is an exceedingly high risk to take for very little reward. And for the "pour encourager les autres" idea, that requires opting for a useless murder, and for it to be both extremely obvious to any other potential whistleblowers, yet also not attract the attention of federal investigators. The current US government has a large stake in Boeing's survival; they have a much much lesser interest in the protection of any particular Boeing executive who might have arranged a hit, and a considerable interest in maintaining the state's monopoly on lethal violence. So yes, the balance suggests suicide is more likely than murder, even if the latter is not *impossible.*
It's just lazy thinking and handwaving of the sort I am much more used to seeing on Reddit than here.
posted by tavella at 2:13 PM on March 13 [10 favorites]
Sure, it's within the realm of possibility that they will start to do this on the reg in our ever encroaching fascism. But a whistleblower who has been talking for the last seven years and whose testimony is even recorded in an affidavit is an exceedingly high risk to take for very little reward. And for the "pour encourager les autres" idea, that requires opting for a useless murder, and for it to be both extremely obvious to any other potential whistleblowers, yet also not attract the attention of federal investigators. The current US government has a large stake in Boeing's survival; they have a much much lesser interest in the protection of any particular Boeing executive who might have arranged a hit, and a considerable interest in maintaining the state's monopoly on lethal violence. So yes, the balance suggests suicide is more likely than murder, even if the latter is not *impossible.*
It's just lazy thinking and handwaving of the sort I am much more used to seeing on Reddit than here.
posted by tavella at 2:13 PM on March 13 [10 favorites]
I'd argue that a great deal of the concern about corporate murder stems from the unseemly haste with which all law enforcement involved rushed to declare with total 100% confidence that it was a suicide and that there was absolutely no need for anyone to investigate anything.
There is absolutely a need for an investigation when someone allegedly commits suicide while testifying against any powerful entity whether corporate, government, religious, or individual. It is necessary to help people feel confident when they think it doesn't happen here.
If they had said it seems to be suicide but as a precautionary measure there had also been a serious investigation involving outside agencies, maybe including the FBI, which concluded that it actually was suicide then the people here claiming its conspiracy mongering to suspect that Boeing had him killed would have a valid point.
But as it is, with the cops swooping in and contaminating the scene then more or less eradicating any possible evidence, then I start to have my doubts.
posted by sotonohito at 4:09 PM on March 13 [10 favorites]
There is absolutely a need for an investigation when someone allegedly commits suicide while testifying against any powerful entity whether corporate, government, religious, or individual. It is necessary to help people feel confident when they think it doesn't happen here.
If they had said it seems to be suicide but as a precautionary measure there had also been a serious investigation involving outside agencies, maybe including the FBI, which concluded that it actually was suicide then the people here claiming its conspiracy mongering to suspect that Boeing had him killed would have a valid point.
But as it is, with the cops swooping in and contaminating the scene then more or less eradicating any possible evidence, then I start to have my doubts.
posted by sotonohito at 4:09 PM on March 13 [10 favorites]
> sotonohito: "I'd argue that a great deal of the concern about corporate murder stems from the unseemly haste with which all law enforcement involved rushed to declare with total 100% confidence that it was a suicide and that there was absolutely no need for anyone to investigate anything."
Fwiw, Charleston PD claims to be investigating:
posted by mhum at 5:07 PM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Fwiw, Charleston PD claims to be investigating:
“Detectives are actively investigating this case and are awaiting the formal cause of death, along with any additional findings that might shed further light on the circumstances surrounding the death of Mr. Barnett,” Sgt. Anthony Gibson said in a statement.As usual with police statements, take this with the requisite grains of salt. But their public statements indicate that they're not currently presenting this case as closed.
posted by mhum at 5:07 PM on March 13 [4 favorites]
People are murdered for opposing corporations all the time....To say "it absolutely can't be the case in this instance" is an assumption, based on no evidence at all.
This is exactly the reverse of the situation. The assertion was that "[t]here is no possibility that this wasn’t a hit" and saying anyone who said otherwise was "absurd". The people pushing back on that have all noted that yes, there is a small possibility of it, but that there is not much in the way of modern history of corporations having people assassinated in the US, and that suicide was a more likely answer. The "everyone knows it was murder" and "corporations use hitmen on enemies in the US all the time" and so on is what I mean by conspiracy mongering. They do evil shit! This is not a particular evil that there is significant recent evidence of!
posted by tavella at 8:07 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
This is exactly the reverse of the situation. The assertion was that "[t]here is no possibility that this wasn’t a hit" and saying anyone who said otherwise was "absurd". The people pushing back on that have all noted that yes, there is a small possibility of it, but that there is not much in the way of modern history of corporations having people assassinated in the US, and that suicide was a more likely answer. The "everyone knows it was murder" and "corporations use hitmen on enemies in the US all the time" and so on is what I mean by conspiracy mongering. They do evil shit! This is not a particular evil that there is significant recent evidence of!
posted by tavella at 8:07 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
More info about the "strong shake" that caused a Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner to lose altitude suddenly on Monday, flinging passengers up in the air to smack their heads against the ceiling and sending a bunch of them to the hospital:
"The plane, unannounced, just dropped. I mean it dropped unlike anything I've ever experienced on any kind of minor turbulence, and people were thrown out of their seats, hit the top of the roof of the plane, thrown down the aisles," passenger Brian Jokat said.
"Some of the roof panels were broken from people being thrown up and knocking through the plastic roof panels in the aisle ways. And there was blood coming from several people's heads." [...]
"The pilot actually showed up at the back of plane kind of wanting to see with his own eyes what had transpired and I approached him and said, 'What was that?' He said, 'I lost control of the plane. The gauges went blank for a second.' And then he said they came back on miraculously and the plane just righted itself on its own." [...]
"There was no notification of any type of rough road ahead. It was just instantaneous," Mr Jokat said. "The plane dropped … and it was just a feeling of uneasiness in your stomach. People took flight inside the plane. And if you were in the alleyways, you went forward and backward. If you were in your seat, you went straight up to the ceiling and bounced off the roof...
Then mass chaos broke out on the plane."
posted by mediareport at 8:30 PM on March 13 [2 favorites]
"The plane, unannounced, just dropped. I mean it dropped unlike anything I've ever experienced on any kind of minor turbulence, and people were thrown out of their seats, hit the top of the roof of the plane, thrown down the aisles," passenger Brian Jokat said.
"Some of the roof panels were broken from people being thrown up and knocking through the plastic roof panels in the aisle ways. And there was blood coming from several people's heads." [...]
"The pilot actually showed up at the back of plane kind of wanting to see with his own eyes what had transpired and I approached him and said, 'What was that?' He said, 'I lost control of the plane. The gauges went blank for a second.' And then he said they came back on miraculously and the plane just righted itself on its own." [...]
"There was no notification of any type of rough road ahead. It was just instantaneous," Mr Jokat said. "The plane dropped … and it was just a feeling of uneasiness in your stomach. People took flight inside the plane. And if you were in the alleyways, you went forward and backward. If you were in your seat, you went straight up to the ceiling and bounced off the roof...
Then mass chaos broke out on the plane."
posted by mediareport at 8:30 PM on March 13 [2 favorites]
I'm entirely certain that drop has nothing to do with Boeing in any way. Air currents can do weird things and we don't have a good way to see them clearly, which apparently some animals CAN see.
I've been on an airplane that dropped quite a distance very suddenly for no reason other than air currents decided to make us plummet. It wasn't a nose-down dive, it was just a drop in altitude. It was terrifying, but it wasn't so bad as to put me off flying.
It wasn't nearly as bad as that incident reported above, however.
posted by hippybear at 8:39 PM on March 13
I've been on an airplane that dropped quite a distance very suddenly for no reason other than air currents decided to make us plummet. It wasn't a nose-down dive, it was just a drop in altitude. It was terrifying, but it wasn't so bad as to put me off flying.
It wasn't nearly as bad as that incident reported above, however.
posted by hippybear at 8:39 PM on March 13
The phrase "uncommanded slats deployment" is bouncing around in my head looking for a place to sit.
posted by neuron at 10:19 PM on March 13
posted by neuron at 10:19 PM on March 13
I had an online class with a whistle-blower and she said she had ruined her life by doing so. You can't ever get a job again, chances of getting justice are slim to none.
why don't we create gofundme for whistleblowers? Seems to me we should give incentives for corporate whistleblowers to ruin their lives for the good of society. How about a million a piece just to start.
posted by any major dude at 10:26 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
why don't we create gofundme for whistleblowers? Seems to me we should give incentives for corporate whistleblowers to ruin their lives for the good of society. How about a million a piece just to start.
posted by any major dude at 10:26 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
hippybear, the pilot in the LATAM case reported that “the gauges went blank for a second.” I absolutely believe that was Boeing-attributed.
posted by lesser weasel at 1:56 AM on March 14 [7 favorites]
posted by lesser weasel at 1:56 AM on March 14 [7 favorites]
We shouldn't have a gofundme, but rather a permanant government pool funded by penalties levied on corporations that broke the law.
Blow in your company and get $10,000/month for the rest of your life as the Whistleblower Bounty! No need to worry about getting a new job, find corporate malfeasance, blow them in, and retire!
posted by sotonohito at 6:26 AM on March 14 [7 favorites]
Blow in your company and get $10,000/month for the rest of your life as the Whistleblower Bounty! No need to worry about getting a new job, find corporate malfeasance, blow them in, and retire!
posted by sotonohito at 6:26 AM on March 14 [7 favorites]
the pilot in the LATAM case reported that “the gauges went blank for a second.” I absolutely believe that was Boeing-attributed.
Like the article says, we'll have to see what the flight recorder tells us, but that comment from the pilot reported by the passenger sure is interesting.
posted by mediareport at 6:48 AM on March 14 [1 favorite]
Like the article says, we'll have to see what the flight recorder tells us, but that comment from the pilot reported by the passenger sure is interesting.
posted by mediareport at 6:48 AM on March 14 [1 favorite]
Yes, some whistleblowers die by suicide. Barnett (two days into a month-long deposition ahead of the June trial) spent the last decade crusading for the public good; I think it's odd this particular man would choose to end his life in public, around 9:30 a.m., in a Holiday Inn parking lot off the Savannah highway, during a torrential downpour. I also find it odd that it's unclear whether hotel staff or police (who said they'd been summoned for a welfare check, by Barnett's friend Rob) discovered his body:
[Barnett's lawyer, John] Turkewitz called the hotel when Barnett failed to show up for the deposition around 10 a.m. The hotel staff then located Barnett in his car with a gun still in his hand and what they said was a note on the passenger seat. "We did not have any indication that he was under tremendous stress to the point where he would take his own life," Turkewitz said. (ABC News)
=versus=
Police discovered Barnett after welfare check requested. Police said officers found Barnett in his orange 2015 Dodge Ram truck dead from a gunshot wound to the head Saturday morning. Police were sent to the Holiday Inn on Savannah Highway shortly before 10:20 a.m. to perform a welfare check, Sgt. Anthony Gibson said. Police say a friend named Rob called police to request that they check on Barnett. (WCSC News)
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:22 AM on March 14 [7 favorites]
[Barnett's lawyer, John] Turkewitz called the hotel when Barnett failed to show up for the deposition around 10 a.m. The hotel staff then located Barnett in his car with a gun still in his hand and what they said was a note on the passenger seat. "We did not have any indication that he was under tremendous stress to the point where he would take his own life," Turkewitz said. (ABC News)
=versus=
Police discovered Barnett after welfare check requested. Police said officers found Barnett in his orange 2015 Dodge Ram truck dead from a gunshot wound to the head Saturday morning. Police were sent to the Holiday Inn on Savannah Highway shortly before 10:20 a.m. to perform a welfare check, Sgt. Anthony Gibson said. Police say a friend named Rob called police to request that they check on Barnett. (WCSC News)
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:22 AM on March 14 [7 favorites]
Yes, this happens all the time. Nothing to see here, move along...
posted by Windopaene at 9:42 AM on March 14 [1 favorite]
posted by Windopaene at 9:42 AM on March 14 [1 favorite]
In the LATAM case a passenger claimed the pilot said that, but the investigation is focussing around a chair on the flight deck moving unexpectedly: https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/350212664/four-still-hospital-focus-investigation-plummeting-latam-flight-revealed
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:44 AM on March 14
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:44 AM on March 14
Thanks, i_am_joe's_spleen. Here's the relevant bit:
Two people briefed on the incident have told aviation analysis site The Air Current that the focus of the investigation has centred on the movement of a flight deck seat. The aviation publication reported what caused the seat to move on the Boeing 787-9 is the key question for air safety investigators, citing a senior airline safety official who said, based on the available information, it was understood that the seat movement was “pilot induced, not intentionally.”
Another person familiar with the investigation said “the seat movement caused the nose down” attitude of the aircraft and added that the possibility of an electrical short was also under review.
The sequence of events between the seat movement and the steep dive experienced by the aircraft wasn’t yet known.
A passenger on board told Stuff the pilot told him the “gauges just blanked out” during the incident, though The Air Current reported that was not the main focus of any inquiry. Professor of Aviation at the University of Southern Queensland Kan Tsui told Stuff Travel it was “very doubtful and unlikely the pilot lost instrumentation, due to the redundancy of the flight systems integrated in Boeing 787 Dreamliner.”
It may be a while before more details come out, but it doesn't seem to have been weird air currents at this point.
posted by mediareport at 10:31 AM on March 14 [1 favorite]
Two people briefed on the incident have told aviation analysis site The Air Current that the focus of the investigation has centred on the movement of a flight deck seat. The aviation publication reported what caused the seat to move on the Boeing 787-9 is the key question for air safety investigators, citing a senior airline safety official who said, based on the available information, it was understood that the seat movement was “pilot induced, not intentionally.”
Another person familiar with the investigation said “the seat movement caused the nose down” attitude of the aircraft and added that the possibility of an electrical short was also under review.
The sequence of events between the seat movement and the steep dive experienced by the aircraft wasn’t yet known.
A passenger on board told Stuff the pilot told him the “gauges just blanked out” during the incident, though The Air Current reported that was not the main focus of any inquiry. Professor of Aviation at the University of Southern Queensland Kan Tsui told Stuff Travel it was “very doubtful and unlikely the pilot lost instrumentation, due to the redundancy of the flight systems integrated in Boeing 787 Dreamliner.”
It may be a while before more details come out, but it doesn't seem to have been weird air currents at this point.
posted by mediareport at 10:31 AM on March 14 [1 favorite]
The Air Current article linked in the Stuff.co.nz link has more detail:
All Boeing commercial airplanes have a large yoke or control wheel that is positioned directly in front of the right and left pilot seats and each sits between legs of the flight crew while their feet are on the rudder pedals.
Each seat can be moved in two different ways. One is through a switch on the side of the seat that can be manipulated to move the seat along a track while a pilot is seated. A second set of controls on the back of the seat below the headrest are typically used to move the seat for pilots to gain access when the seat is in a flight-ready position close to the controls. Those switches are covered and part of the backshell of the seat...
While the precise details of the incident are not fully known, there is ample historical precedent for unintentional in-flight upsets or electrical issues. In 2014, a digital SLR camera became jammed between the left arm rest and the base of the side stick of a Royal Air Force A330 tanker causing a 4,400 foot loss in altitude and a maximum recorded descent rate of 15,000 feet per minute. The left seat was being moved “at the onset of the event,” according to investigators.In separate 2019 and 2020 incidents, drinks spilled on an A350 radio panel caused the shutdown of one of its Trent XWB engines prompting a redesign of part of the center pedestal that sits between the pilots.
Maybe the pilot was trying to cover the cockpit's ass with the "gauges went blank" thing. Again, it'll be interesting to see what the flight recorder shows (and what the upcoming lawsuits might reveal).
posted by mediareport at 10:44 AM on March 14
All Boeing commercial airplanes have a large yoke or control wheel that is positioned directly in front of the right and left pilot seats and each sits between legs of the flight crew while their feet are on the rudder pedals.
Each seat can be moved in two different ways. One is through a switch on the side of the seat that can be manipulated to move the seat along a track while a pilot is seated. A second set of controls on the back of the seat below the headrest are typically used to move the seat for pilots to gain access when the seat is in a flight-ready position close to the controls. Those switches are covered and part of the backshell of the seat...
While the precise details of the incident are not fully known, there is ample historical precedent for unintentional in-flight upsets or electrical issues. In 2014, a digital SLR camera became jammed between the left arm rest and the base of the side stick of a Royal Air Force A330 tanker causing a 4,400 foot loss in altitude and a maximum recorded descent rate of 15,000 feet per minute. The left seat was being moved “at the onset of the event,” according to investigators.In separate 2019 and 2020 incidents, drinks spilled on an A350 radio panel caused the shutdown of one of its Trent XWB engines prompting a redesign of part of the center pedestal that sits between the pilots.
Maybe the pilot was trying to cover the cockpit's ass with the "gauges went blank" thing. Again, it'll be interesting to see what the flight recorder shows (and what the upcoming lawsuits might reveal).
posted by mediareport at 10:44 AM on March 14
East Coast It Notes cartoon (Facebook link)
posted by joannemerriam at 11:33 AM on March 14 [1 favorite]
posted by joannemerriam at 11:33 AM on March 14 [1 favorite]
Whelp:
'If anything happens, it's not suicide': Boeing whistleblower's prediction before death
'If anything happens, it's not suicide': Boeing whistleblower's prediction before death
A close family friend of John Barnett said he predicted he might wind up dead and that a story could surface that he killed himself.posted by Rhaomi at 2:31 AM on March 15 [12 favorites]
But at the time, he told her not to believe it.
"I know that he did not commit suicide," said Jennifer, a friend of Barnett's. "There's no way."
Jennifer said they talked about this exact scenario playing out. However, now, his words seem like a premonition he told her directly not to believe.
"I know John because his mom and my mom are best friends," Jennifer said. "Over the years, get-togethers, birthdays, celebrations and whatnot. We've all got together and talked."
When Jennifer needed help one day, Barnett came by to see her. They talked about his upcoming deposition in Charleston. Jennifer knew Barnett filed an extremely damaging complaint against Boeing. He said the aerospace giant retaliated against him when he blew the whistle on unsafe practices.
For more than 30 years, he was a quality manager. He'd recently retired and moved back to Louisiana to look after his mom.
"He wasn't concerned about safety because I asked him," Jennifer said. "I said, 'Aren't you scared?' And he said, 'No, I ain't scared, but if anything happens to me, it's not suicide.'"
I 100% have a default assumption in my mind that respectable Western companies don't kill people in America, and that if they did they wouldn't get away with it.
I have this assumption despite knowing that respectable Western companies do (or pay for) plenty of killing in the non-Western world - all of those Amazonian environmental activists and African mining opponents aren't killing themselves.
Boeing has longstanding relationships with many of the most murderous institutions in the world, from the CIA and the American military to Prince Bone Saw in Saudi Arabia. Boeing executives spend plenty of time schmoozing with powerful leaders who have their enemies killed with minimal consequences.
So why is part of my brain still so hung up on the assumption that he couldn't possibly have been killed, that they wouldn't be so audacious?
posted by clawsoon at 7:39 AM on March 15 [7 favorites]
I have this assumption despite knowing that respectable Western companies do (or pay for) plenty of killing in the non-Western world - all of those Amazonian environmental activists and African mining opponents aren't killing themselves.
Boeing has longstanding relationships with many of the most murderous institutions in the world, from the CIA and the American military to Prince Bone Saw in Saudi Arabia. Boeing executives spend plenty of time schmoozing with powerful leaders who have their enemies killed with minimal consequences.
So why is part of my brain still so hung up on the assumption that he couldn't possibly have been killed, that they wouldn't be so audacious?
posted by clawsoon at 7:39 AM on March 15 [7 favorites]
r/wallstreetbets: "If Boeing (BA) actually murdered its whistleblower and got away with it, does that make Boeing a good long position?"
posted by clawsoon at 7:51 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 7:51 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
So why is part of my brain still so hung up on the assumption that he couldn't possibly have been killed, that they wouldn't be so audacious?
1) You could be correct in your assumption. Perhaps a (respectable) (Western) company would not be so audacious as to murder a US citizen in cold blood, on US territory
2) You could be incorrect in your assumption
There are still people debating the use of genocide with regards to what is happening in Gaza as we speak. They are posting comments in the current thread. There are people questioning the number of Palestinian dead. There is endless speculation on Kate Middleton, if that's your flavour of interest. The information environment is a churning, buzzing, din. It's a wonder anyone knows anything. Add in the biases you and I have accrued over a lifetime and here we are.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:57 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
1) You could be correct in your assumption. Perhaps a (respectable) (Western) company would not be so audacious as to murder a US citizen in cold blood, on US territory
2) You could be incorrect in your assumption
There are still people debating the use of genocide with regards to what is happening in Gaza as we speak. They are posting comments in the current thread. There are people questioning the number of Palestinian dead. There is endless speculation on Kate Middleton, if that's your flavour of interest. The information environment is a churning, buzzing, din. It's a wonder anyone knows anything. Add in the biases you and I have accrued over a lifetime and here we are.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:57 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
the Middleton speculation ties to media mismanagement, and that's here, too — beyond the questions of who found Barnett and why they knew to look for him, in one telling he was in a car and in the other it's his own truck.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:20 AM on March 15 [1 favorite]
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:20 AM on March 15 [1 favorite]
> there's no particular reason to believe that an american company at the heart of the military-industrial complex wouldn't do a murder.
Boeing didn't even have to do it. There are plenty of people/organizations with resources and a vested interest in Boeing's survival. Boeing Defense, Space & Security makes the KC-46, SAOC, E-7, VC-25B, P-8, F/A-18, F-15, T-7, MQ-25 and MQ-28. While carving off Boeing Commercial Airplanes and letting it swim or sink on it's own might appeal, the P-8 submarine hunter is based on the 737 and the KC-46 is based on the 767.
If you care (too much) about USA's international military dominance, eliminating threats to it are "patriotism." While Barnett might not have been suicidal a while back, a harassment campaign driving him towards it wouldn't be beyond the fed (wikipedia article about FBI letter to MLK).
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 8:13 PM on March 15 [2 favorites]
Boeing didn't even have to do it. There are plenty of people/organizations with resources and a vested interest in Boeing's survival. Boeing Defense, Space & Security makes the KC-46, SAOC, E-7, VC-25B, P-8, F/A-18, F-15, T-7, MQ-25 and MQ-28. While carving off Boeing Commercial Airplanes and letting it swim or sink on it's own might appeal, the P-8 submarine hunter is based on the 737 and the KC-46 is based on the 767.
If you care (too much) about USA's international military dominance, eliminating threats to it are "patriotism." While Barnett might not have been suicidal a while back, a harassment campaign driving him towards it wouldn't be beyond the fed (wikipedia article about FBI letter to MLK).
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 8:13 PM on March 15 [2 favorites]
I hope the pilot got checked out after as what if "gauges just blanked out” was the pilot's recollection from a very traumatic event when he blacked out / was concussed. The mind will do all sorts of odd things to 'help' us recover from trauma, and we are left with a memory that's hard to falsify.
posted by unearthed at 12:18 AM on March 16
posted by unearthed at 12:18 AM on March 16
Sorry for not having a more direct report, but the latest on the LATAM thing.
"The airline manufacturer released a message on Saturday to operators of all Boeing 787 variants advising them to apply adhesives to the pilot seat movement switch caps to prevent them from coming loose."
"The Wall Street Journal reported late Thursday that a flight attendant serving a meal in the cockpit hit a switch on the back of a seat that pushed the pilot into controls on the 787, pushing down the nose of the plane."
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:57 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
"The airline manufacturer released a message on Saturday to operators of all Boeing 787 variants advising them to apply adhesives to the pilot seat movement switch caps to prevent them from coming loose."
"The Wall Street Journal reported late Thursday that a flight attendant serving a meal in the cockpit hit a switch on the back of a seat that pushed the pilot into controls on the 787, pushing down the nose of the plane."
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:57 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
(this is of reasonable concern to me because AirNZ just upgraded to Dreamliners for their longhaul flights, and also I am planning to go to Brazil at the end of this year and LATAM via Santiago is usually the easiest way to do that...)
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:58 PM on March 17
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:58 PM on March 17
Thanks for that follow-up. I'd disagree with the "No defects found" headline, though. Seems like a pretty clear defect in the design of the pilot seat movement switch caps, at least, and maybe another one in the ability of the seat's forward movement to send the controls into a nosedive. Those seem like pretty big design defects to me at first read, anyway.
posted by mediareport at 5:06 AM on March 18 [1 favorite]
posted by mediareport at 5:06 AM on March 18 [1 favorite]
We shouldn't have a gofundme, but rather a permanant government pool funded by penalties levied on corporations that broke the law.
yeah, if we had a government that wasn't a corporate feudal system we could do a lot of nice thngs but until then we "the people" need to do things on our own. We already gofundme healthcare because no politician that wants to get the government involved can get elected so we need to do the same for whistleblowers.
posted by any major dude at 3:04 PM on March 18 [4 favorites]
yeah, if we had a government that wasn't a corporate feudal system we could do a lot of nice thngs but until then we "the people" need to do things on our own. We already gofundme healthcare because no politician that wants to get the government involved can get elected so we need to do the same for whistleblowers.
posted by any major dude at 3:04 PM on March 18 [4 favorites]
Shades of Silkwood.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:50 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:50 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
Boeing CEO Dave Calhoun will step down amid management shakeup. Two other top executives, commercial airlines head Stan Deal and board chair Larry Kellner will also leave the company. (gift link for Washington Post article, March 25, 2024) Calhoun will depart at the end of 2024, according to an announcement from the company. Board chair Larry Kellner announced he will not run for reelection at the company’s upcoming shareholder meeting, and commercial airlines CEO Stan Deal will retire from the company effective Monday.
The immediate departure of Deal from the company’s commercial airline division, which is responsible for the 737 Max, is also a significant change for Boeing. Deal, a nearly 40-year veteran of the company, was appointed chief executive of Boeing’s commercial airplane division in October 2019 after holding a number of senior executive positions in the division. He was the company’s senior executive in the Pacific Northwest.
Deal is being replaced by Stephanie Pope, who most recently served as chief operating officer after more than three decades at the company. The new board chair is Steve Mollenkopf, a former Qualcomm executive who joined Boeing’s board in 2020. Mollenkopf will lead the selection of Boeing’s new chief executive after Calhoun retires.
Boeing press release announcing board and management changes: [Pope] begins her role as President and CEO of Commercial Airplanes immediately.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:57 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
The immediate departure of Deal from the company’s commercial airline division, which is responsible for the 737 Max, is also a significant change for Boeing. Deal, a nearly 40-year veteran of the company, was appointed chief executive of Boeing’s commercial airplane division in October 2019 after holding a number of senior executive positions in the division. He was the company’s senior executive in the Pacific Northwest.
Deal is being replaced by Stephanie Pope, who most recently served as chief operating officer after more than three decades at the company. The new board chair is Steve Mollenkopf, a former Qualcomm executive who joined Boeing’s board in 2020. Mollenkopf will lead the selection of Boeing’s new chief executive after Calhoun retires.
Boeing press release announcing board and management changes: [Pope] begins her role as President and CEO of Commercial Airplanes immediately.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:57 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
Maureen Tkacik: Suicide Mission - What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane (American Prospect):
The day after Broken Dreams premiered, Swampy got an email informing him that he’d been put on a 60-day corrective action plan four weeks earlier. His alleged offense constituted using email to communicate about process violations; the HR file noted, fictitiously, that his boss had discussed his “infraction” with him earlier.posted by kmt at 9:22 AM on March 28 [9 favorites]
Swampy was no fool. “Leadership wants nothing in email so they maintain plausible deniability,” he wrote in the “comments” space on his corrective action plan paperwork. “It is obvious leadership is just looking for items to criticize me on so I stop identifying issues. I will conform!” He immediately applied for a job on the graveyard shift, whose supervisor promised the gig would go to the manager with the most seniority on the Final Assembly team. But the job went to a manager who had transferred to Final Assembly all of a week earlier, which is when Swampy began to realize he’d been institutionally blackballed from the only company he’d ever worked for.
He got two more internal job offers rescinded after that, including one from a group that was literally desperate for someone with Barnett’s breadth of experience. “They didn’t care how bad I wanted him,” the senior manager told one of Swampy’s friends. “They said John Barnett is not going anywhere.”
Finally, in early 2017 Swampy happened upon a printout of a list of 49 “Quality Managers to Fire.” The name John Barnett was number one.
Claims 787 could break apart mid-flight.
Well that's not terrifying at all.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 6:27 PM on April 10 [1 favorite]
Well that's not terrifying at all.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 6:27 PM on April 10 [1 favorite]
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posted by hippybear at 4:55 PM on March 12 [26 favorites]