"Sometimes you make a video out of spite."
March 21, 2024 9:48 AM Subscribe
Ian Danskin (of Innuendo Studio and creator of the Alt-Right Playbook) dusts off a video script he's had kicking around, and explains in detail why everybody but him is wrong about Edgar Wright and Simon Pegg's Cornetto Trilogy.
The video discusses how the films (Shawn of the Dead, Hot Fuzz, and The World's End) subvert the "manchild learns to grow up" genre by instead creating worlds where they don't need to, and how that winds up resulting in repercussions for the story - especially when the protagonist makes their problems the world's problems.
The video discusses how the films (Shawn of the Dead, Hot Fuzz, and The World's End) subvert the "manchild learns to grow up" genre by instead creating worlds where they don't need to, and how that winds up resulting in repercussions for the story - especially when the protagonist makes their problems the world's problems.
I watched this last night and I think he's broadly right, but there were a few points at which I wished he could have been right without screeching about it. In my view The World's End was the weakest of the Cornetto films in part because Pegg's character is a kind of annoying man-baby in ways his protagonist in the previous films wasn't, which Danskin goes to some length to emphasize. Although I think Wright is a brilliant director and Pegg a charismatic lead, I never really felt inclined to re-watch World's in the same way I have Shaun and Fuzz.
posted by axiom at 10:37 AM on March 21 [7 favorites]
posted by axiom at 10:37 AM on March 21 [7 favorites]
I've only seen the first two movies discussed and I didn't even remember them very well, but just this video on its own was well worth watching.
Have not watched Danskins video yet, but the third movie, The Worlds End, is pretty much exactly the thesis there.
posted by Artw at 10:38 AM on March 21 [1 favorite]
Have not watched Danskins video yet, but the third movie, The Worlds End, is pretty much exactly the thesis there.
posted by Artw at 10:38 AM on March 21 [1 favorite]
Wow.
Honestly he just seems like a normal YouTuber to me here.
Also highly, highly recommend the content of Alt-Right playbook to everybody and anybody.
posted by Artw at 10:49 AM on March 21 [10 favorites]
Honestly he just seems like a normal YouTuber to me here.
Also highly, highly recommend the content of Alt-Right playbook to everybody and anybody.
posted by Artw at 10:49 AM on March 21 [10 favorites]
Ian is the living embodiment of 'You're not wrong, but you're just an asshole.'
Honestly he just seems like a normal YouTuber to me here.
Both of these things can be true, unfortunately.
posted by mhoye at 10:54 AM on March 21 [12 favorites]
Honestly he just seems like a normal YouTuber to me here.
Both of these things can be true, unfortunately.
posted by mhoye at 10:54 AM on March 21 [12 favorites]
Wow. I think someone nailed some of the many reasons I hate the last film.
posted by terrapin at 11:02 AM on March 21 [2 favorites]
posted by terrapin at 11:02 AM on March 21 [2 favorites]
It’s interesting to speculate how much of the “x resists growing up to the point of ensuring the world around them doesn’t” is Wright and how much is Pegg, as their first project Spaced can definitely be viewed through that lens, as can Scott Pilgrim vs. The World, which has no Pegg at all.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 11:12 AM on March 21 [2 favorites]
posted by Jon Mitchell at 11:12 AM on March 21 [2 favorites]
That, though, has a Brian Lee O’Malley.
Also the Netflix animation may be of interest in this light.
posted by Artw at 11:18 AM on March 21 [2 favorites]
Also the Netflix animation may be of interest in this light.
posted by Artw at 11:18 AM on March 21 [2 favorites]
Scott Pilgrim gaining self-respect and growing the hell up and growing out of the video game metaphors he's been seeing the world through is literally how the comic ends. He never needed to defeat seven evil exes- he needed to grow up and relate to Ramona as a person. Wright skipped all of that.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:14 PM on March 21 [13 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:14 PM on March 21 [13 favorites]
The first two films (can't speak for the third, as I only saw it once) are funny and clever and chock-full of virtuoso filmmaking razzle-dazzle; but without the flawed, unguarded humanity of Nick Frost's characters, I'd find little reason to revisit any of them. Whatever is emotionally valid about those films was supplied by him.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:03 PM on March 21 [4 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:03 PM on March 21 [4 favorites]
Simon Pegg was on Desert Island Discs [txt exec summ] in May last year. Whatever about not growing up, these boys aren't punching down.
posted by BobTheScientist at 2:26 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
posted by BobTheScientist at 2:26 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
Ian is the living embodiment of 'You're not wrong, but you're just an asshole.'
um... Ian is also an occasional poster on MetaFilter (me).
posted by Peevish at 2:59 PM on March 21 [57 favorites]
um... Ian is also an occasional poster on MetaFilter (me).
posted by Peevish at 2:59 PM on March 21 [57 favorites]
um... Ian is also an occasional poster on MetaFilter (me).
I once wrote a shitty, off the cuff comment about Jim Butcher here and then realized that there is a non-zero chance that he might be around and realized that me casually insulting someone isn't great in general, and that the internet would be a better place if people acted like those they are commenting upon would be reading the comments.
Anyway, kind of crummy for you, Peevish, but also semi-eponysterical. 😂😂😂
posted by Literaryhero at 3:13 PM on March 21 [3 favorites]
I once wrote a shitty, off the cuff comment about Jim Butcher here and then realized that there is a non-zero chance that he might be around and realized that me casually insulting someone isn't great in general, and that the internet would be a better place if people acted like those they are commenting upon would be reading the comments.
Anyway, kind of crummy for you, Peevish, but also semi-eponysterical. 😂😂😂
posted by Literaryhero at 3:13 PM on March 21 [3 favorites]
Hey, Peevish, your video got a subscribe out of me, and I don’t really subscribe to a lot of youtube channels.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 3:54 PM on March 21 [3 favorites]
posted by Mister Moofoo at 3:54 PM on March 21 [3 favorites]
wasn't asking you to be sorry! I agree people should be free to have and share whatever opinions. I have shared frank opinions about authors I've read without realizing they were in the thread and was very embarrassed, would have phrased things differently had I known. figured I'd announce myself in case anyone wants to avoid similar. clearly you do not!
posted by Peevish at 4:22 PM on March 21 [20 favorites]
posted by Peevish at 4:22 PM on March 21 [20 favorites]
You think that's awkward?
I once commented on a metafilter post, describing the writer in question as "having the dialectical qualities of a sentient fart."
Later he introduced himself to me in person at a meetup..
Like out in the world. "I'm your sentient fart."
Anyway, Danskin's analysis puts words to the exact reason I love those movies. They flip the script in a very creative and nuanced way without overselling the "hapless goofball" nature of the leads.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 4:56 PM on March 21 [9 favorites]
I once commented on a metafilter post, describing the writer in question as "having the dialectical qualities of a sentient fart."
Later he introduced himself to me in person at a meetup..
Like out in the world. "I'm your sentient fart."
Anyway, Danskin's analysis puts words to the exact reason I love those movies. They flip the script in a very creative and nuanced way without overselling the "hapless goofball" nature of the leads.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 4:56 PM on March 21 [9 favorites]
Is it weird that I now feel more awkward about wanting to say how much I love Ian's videos now I know he's one of us and here? Ah well, screw it.
You know when Lemon Jelly plays at the end of the last episode of Spaced? I bloody loved Pegg and Frost and Wright right up to then. Afterwards, well, there's a lot and sure, there are brilliant moments, but that show nailed it for me in a way that nothing else they did after did for me. Perhaps they were better before they grew up?
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 5:25 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
You know when Lemon Jelly plays at the end of the last episode of Spaced? I bloody loved Pegg and Frost and Wright right up to then. Afterwards, well, there's a lot and sure, there are brilliant moments, but that show nailed it for me in a way that nothing else they did after did for me. Perhaps they were better before they grew up?
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 5:25 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
watched just long enough to get to the thesis statement and immediately popped it on the "watch later" list
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:26 PM on March 21
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:26 PM on March 21
I've only seen the first two, but they both seem to me to fit the "thesis-antithesis-synthesis" form of the three-act structure (enough so that I wrote a slide using Shaun of the Dead to describe this structure for a recent talk I gave.) It breaks down like this:
Thesis: The protagonist as they are at the beginning of the story, in their day-to-day life, with whatever skills, shortcomings, and coping mechanisms they have developed to fit into that particular rut.
Antithesis: The world on the other side of the threshold, which forces the Protagonist to adapt as this new world is singularly at odds with the skills, shortcomings and coping mechanisms that were doing well-enough for the hero at the beginning.
Synthesis: The protagonist faces their greatest challenge, fusing who they were with what they've learned, in order to succeed or at least earn some sort of "moral victory."
(This is pretty necessarily a formula that works for happy, or at least bittersweet, endings. Tragedies have different arcs)
So Shaun starts as a slacker (with all the traits Ian describes), which is working pretty well for him up until Liz leaves him. Then he crosses the threshold into a Zombie Movie (and I love Ian's description there of why that serves as a form of escapism) where being a slacker isn't going to cut it anymore. Yes, his plans suck and don't go the way he imagines they will, but (to me) that's just because that's how stories work, especially in Act 2. Plans fail, other characters react to things in unexpected ways, the hero has to improvise, and tension rises. But he does learn to take charge, and does learn to make tough decisions (like shooting Barbara) and in the end, he has fused that newfound knowledge with who he was beforehand (using the familiar environment of the Winchester Pub to, as Ian says, survive until the military shows up.)
But, like... it's a zombie movie. Surviving until the military shows up is what counts as a victory there. Shaun was never going to cure zombie-itis.
Similarly in Hot Fuzz, Nicholas breaks out of his "5-year-old's understanding of law and order" by shedding his belief in Authority always being right - he has to take down the Authority himself! And he learns some moves from Danny that help him make a friend for the first time in his life while also loosening him up a little bit. That the climax is a big action setpiece that's also done as properly as possible, with all the paperwork filled out, is the Synthesis - Nicholas is fusing who he was with what he's learned.
So I disagree a bit with Ian here. I think these first two movies are about growing up, but I'll grant that the "punchlines" to each of them lean more towards the thesis than antithesis side of the spectrum.
I need to see The World's End (or maybe I don't), but based on the summary here and everything else I've read and heard about it, is sounds like Ian is right on. Gary is profoundly, fundamentally static and refuses to change. And you can see this difference in how the heroes of these three movies come upon their quests:
Shaun would rather stay a slacker, which requires no action on his part but is causing damage to his life. The Zombie Outbreak happens, and he's forced into action as a result of it. Nicholas thinks he knows the only way to be a cop, and would like to continue doing so, but it's causing damage to his life, and he gets transferred to Sandford, where he has to adjust his thinking to respond to the conspiracy. In both of these cases, the world drags Simon Pegg into an adventure so he can't be complacent anymore.
Gary, however, is a piece of shit in ways causing damage to his life (and those of anyone he comes into contact with), who bullies his old friends into doing the pub crawl, and then into continuing it, so that he can relive his glory days. His quest is pointless and arbitrary and totally self-chosen. He can step away from it at any point and there's no compelling reason for him to not do so. The alien invasion, rather than being a crucible for change, is a series of obstacles to overcome on his quest to prove that he will never change.
So yeah, I disagree a little bit about the first two movies, I think I agree about the third one but I haven't actually seen it, and I leave you with a question because it's been too long since I've seen Hot Fuzz and I can't remember: Does Nicholas have a "changed drink order" in the denoument? Shaun notably asks for sugars in his tea, a change from earlier in the movie, and Gary orders water (BTW, strong agreement that sobriety without addressing one's myriad other shortcomings barely qualifies as anything). Does Nicholas have a corresponding moment like that? Just curious.
posted by Navelgazer at 1:55 AM on March 22 [3 favorites]
Thesis: The protagonist as they are at the beginning of the story, in their day-to-day life, with whatever skills, shortcomings, and coping mechanisms they have developed to fit into that particular rut.
Antithesis: The world on the other side of the threshold, which forces the Protagonist to adapt as this new world is singularly at odds with the skills, shortcomings and coping mechanisms that were doing well-enough for the hero at the beginning.
Synthesis: The protagonist faces their greatest challenge, fusing who they were with what they've learned, in order to succeed or at least earn some sort of "moral victory."
(This is pretty necessarily a formula that works for happy, or at least bittersweet, endings. Tragedies have different arcs)
So Shaun starts as a slacker (with all the traits Ian describes), which is working pretty well for him up until Liz leaves him. Then he crosses the threshold into a Zombie Movie (and I love Ian's description there of why that serves as a form of escapism) where being a slacker isn't going to cut it anymore. Yes, his plans suck and don't go the way he imagines they will, but (to me) that's just because that's how stories work, especially in Act 2. Plans fail, other characters react to things in unexpected ways, the hero has to improvise, and tension rises. But he does learn to take charge, and does learn to make tough decisions (like shooting Barbara) and in the end, he has fused that newfound knowledge with who he was beforehand (using the familiar environment of the Winchester Pub to, as Ian says, survive until the military shows up.)
But, like... it's a zombie movie. Surviving until the military shows up is what counts as a victory there. Shaun was never going to cure zombie-itis.
Similarly in Hot Fuzz, Nicholas breaks out of his "5-year-old's understanding of law and order" by shedding his belief in Authority always being right - he has to take down the Authority himself! And he learns some moves from Danny that help him make a friend for the first time in his life while also loosening him up a little bit. That the climax is a big action setpiece that's also done as properly as possible, with all the paperwork filled out, is the Synthesis - Nicholas is fusing who he was with what he's learned.
So I disagree a bit with Ian here. I think these first two movies are about growing up, but I'll grant that the "punchlines" to each of them lean more towards the thesis than antithesis side of the spectrum.
I need to see The World's End (or maybe I don't), but based on the summary here and everything else I've read and heard about it, is sounds like Ian is right on. Gary is profoundly, fundamentally static and refuses to change. And you can see this difference in how the heroes of these three movies come upon their quests:
Shaun would rather stay a slacker, which requires no action on his part but is causing damage to his life. The Zombie Outbreak happens, and he's forced into action as a result of it. Nicholas thinks he knows the only way to be a cop, and would like to continue doing so, but it's causing damage to his life, and he gets transferred to Sandford, where he has to adjust his thinking to respond to the conspiracy. In both of these cases, the world drags Simon Pegg into an adventure so he can't be complacent anymore.
Gary, however, is a piece of shit in ways causing damage to his life (and those of anyone he comes into contact with), who bullies his old friends into doing the pub crawl, and then into continuing it, so that he can relive his glory days. His quest is pointless and arbitrary and totally self-chosen. He can step away from it at any point and there's no compelling reason for him to not do so. The alien invasion, rather than being a crucible for change, is a series of obstacles to overcome on his quest to prove that he will never change.
So yeah, I disagree a little bit about the first two movies, I think I agree about the third one but I haven't actually seen it, and I leave you with a question because it's been too long since I've seen Hot Fuzz and I can't remember: Does Nicholas have a "changed drink order" in the denoument? Shaun notably asks for sugars in his tea, a change from earlier in the movie, and Gary orders water (BTW, strong agreement that sobriety without addressing one's myriad other shortcomings barely qualifies as anything). Does Nicholas have a corresponding moment like that? Just curious.
posted by Navelgazer at 1:55 AM on March 22 [3 favorites]
Not really, sadly. I've just watched the last little bit (after the big fight & mugshots), hoping that he finally accepts a piece of cake, but there isn't any eating or drinking. He does joke around with the other police a bit.
posted by rifflesby at 3:40 AM on March 22 [1 favorite]
posted by rifflesby at 3:40 AM on March 22 [1 favorite]
I do find the argument in the comments persuasive, despite reading YouTube comments being, in general, a bad idea: the idea that the aliens represent growing up is, to my mind, fatally undermined by them admitting that they ended up replacing the vast majority of the humans in the village with robots. The World's End isn't about how being a manchild and forcing the world to conform to your whims is maybe bad; it's saying, to my mind, that growing up is an impossible standard. Which I think maybe might be why Edgar Wright's films start to grate a bit more the further away he gets from youth.
(I do also find it persuasive that apparently someone put the reading in the video to Wright and Pegg at a Q&A and they claim it hadn't occurred to them, so I'm reluctant to assume it's an intentional statement. On the other hand, in the actual film clearly the world wasn't saved by being an alcoholic, so death of the authors and all that.)
posted by Merus at 7:37 AM on March 22
(I do also find it persuasive that apparently someone put the reading in the video to Wright and Pegg at a Q&A and they claim it hadn't occurred to them, so I'm reluctant to assume it's an intentional statement. On the other hand, in the actual film clearly the world wasn't saved by being an alcoholic, so death of the authors and all that.)
posted by Merus at 7:37 AM on March 22
Ian is the living embodiment of 'You're not wrong, but you're just an asshole.'
I think we know who the real asshole is here.
posted by grouse at 8:37 AM on March 22 [1 favorite]
I think we know who the real asshole is here.
posted by grouse at 8:37 AM on March 22 [1 favorite]
I think we know who the real asshole is here.
It's Gary, right?
posted by Navelgazer at 9:20 AM on March 22 [5 favorites]
It's Gary, right?
posted by Navelgazer at 9:20 AM on March 22 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Two comments removed. Let's avoid making insensitive comments. Please, do not criticize someone on something they cannot change, like their voice.
posted by loup (staff) at 10:46 AM on March 22 [3 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 10:46 AM on March 22 [3 favorites]
TIL anti-woman tone criticisms also set off alarm bells when directed towards a man.
I enjoyed the video and subscribed to the channel.
posted by Number Used Once at 10:57 PM on March 23 [2 favorites]
I enjoyed the video and subscribed to the channel.
posted by Number Used Once at 10:57 PM on March 23 [2 favorites]
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