The second the puck hit the ice, absolute mayhem broke loose.
April 4, 2024 7:45 AM Subscribe
Last night at Madison Square Green: The Rangers and Devils started an all-out line brawl the second the puck dropped, resulting in 8 ejections. The fight has roots in violent encounters last month when Rangers’ Rempe concussed Devils player Siegenthaler. Trigger warning for self-harm and sexual assault.
This isn’t the first time; the two teams had a puck drop line drop in 2012.
This spring has brought renewed attention to the violence in hockey ( “Violence in professional sports, specifically hockey, is endemic and is a major problem that starts well before players land in the NHL. Many of these men who are physically and sexually abusive were engaging in these types of behaviors when they were junior players and even before then, and that’s important to emphasize.”) . Charges are finally being laid in 2018 sexual assault case. A prominent retired player committed suicide after a history of CTE. And a high profile chokehold incident in a Junior game resulted in shocked headlines (and a need for medical attention).
This isn’t the first time; the two teams had a puck drop line drop in 2012.
This spring has brought renewed attention to the violence in hockey ( “Violence in professional sports, specifically hockey, is endemic and is a major problem that starts well before players land in the NHL. Many of these men who are physically and sexually abusive were engaging in these types of behaviors when they were junior players and even before then, and that’s important to emphasize.”) . Charges are finally being laid in 2018 sexual assault case. A prominent retired player committed suicide after a history of CTE. And a high profile chokehold incident in a Junior game resulted in shocked headlines (and a need for medical attention).
Hockey has always been famous for it's brawls...The crowds love it.
posted by Czjewel at 8:06 AM on April 4
posted by Czjewel at 8:06 AM on April 4
Toxic masculinity it sure is. For understanding this fight, as a case study for hockey, it should be noted that MacDermaid was hired explicitly as an enforcer. The “instigating event,” when Rempe concussed Siegenthaler, happened before MacDermaid was on the team. The rivalry is two sided, but the language used is pretty clear within the culture of hockey: Rempe needed to “answer the bell.”
In contrast to a schoolyard standard of culpability “who started it?”, the two players who started to fight first were the only ones not ejected.
posted by rubatan at 8:11 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
In contrast to a schoolyard standard of culpability “who started it?”, the two players who started to fight first were the only ones not ejected.
posted by rubatan at 8:11 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
So could the goalie go down and score a goal, or is play stopped? Also I love that the modern player has a helmet and facemask such that the puncher is mostly just hurting his own hand, and the requirement to hold onto to one another while fighting due to the ice makes it look like an odd form of figure skating.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:20 AM on April 4 [4 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:20 AM on April 4 [4 favorites]
brb gotta go watch slap shot again
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:23 AM on April 4 [4 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:23 AM on April 4 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I played hockey from age 6 to about 12 or thirteen. At which point I realized I had neither the front-line skills to be a scorer, and certainly wasn't big enough to take the hits. Admittedly, we were playing teams with older, bigger teenagers than we were. It got pretty brutal, even without any kind of fighting. Wish I had tried to be a goalie. I was pretty good as a soccer goalie.
But NHL enforcers have had a lot of CTE issues. Always was interesting to watch the Minnesota High School tournament every year, where fighting just didn't happen. And the flow...
I have thought that fighting had gone way down in the NHL from back in the days when I watched it. But it is certainly a thing still. And fans do get into it. And what else do you do when your skilled center is getting blasted all over the ice? Bring in that big dude to make a point about it. That being said, right as the puck is dropped seems pretty crazy.
posted by Windopaene at 8:24 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
But NHL enforcers have had a lot of CTE issues. Always was interesting to watch the Minnesota High School tournament every year, where fighting just didn't happen. And the flow...
I have thought that fighting had gone way down in the NHL from back in the days when I watched it. But it is certainly a thing still. And fans do get into it. And what else do you do when your skilled center is getting blasted all over the ice? Bring in that big dude to make a point about it. That being said, right as the puck is dropped seems pretty crazy.
posted by Windopaene at 8:24 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
And yeah, back in my day if you were a pro, you didn't have to wear a helmet, (WTF?), and I did see lots of kids taking a puck in the face, and losing lots of teeth. And we had to wear some kind of external mouthguard. Gruesome.
posted by Windopaene at 8:28 AM on April 4
posted by Windopaene at 8:28 AM on April 4
offering a glimmer of hope: my buddy's son just started hockey and from what he describes the early introduction is quite wholesome. They are focusing on skills and fun of the sport, team is mixed (girls and boys), and one of the volunteer coaches is non-binary (not that the kids care at that age.. it takes a few years to acquire rigid ideas about gender). Anyhow, it's a great game and I try to remain hopeful about its future
I'm pretty conflicted though.. I do enjoy watching the Edmonton Oilers rn (not so much last night, yeesh), but it's getting harder to stomach the endless betting ads. The toxic masculinity and stupid violence is a real weight dragging the sport down. Let's hope they don't ever ban the post-game handshake
posted by elkevelvet at 8:33 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
I'm pretty conflicted though.. I do enjoy watching the Edmonton Oilers rn (not so much last night, yeesh), but it's getting harder to stomach the endless betting ads. The toxic masculinity and stupid violence is a real weight dragging the sport down. Let's hope they don't ever ban the post-game handshake
posted by elkevelvet at 8:33 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
Not sure if it contributes to the problem or not, but here’s video of the fight last night (trigger warning obviously).
posted by rubatan at 8:33 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
posted by rubatan at 8:33 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
It's so great to see overgrown men punching each other in the helmet and visor with their bare fists. I hope that an actually valuable player "answers the bell" and breaks his hand, which will lead to the quick death of fighting not make any difference whatsoever.
posted by goatdog at 8:33 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]
posted by goatdog at 8:33 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]
The old joke "I went to a fight last night and a hockey game broke out" comes to mind.
posted by briank at 8:35 AM on April 4 [8 favorites]
posted by briank at 8:35 AM on April 4 [8 favorites]
> brb gotta go watch slap shot again
Never a bad idea, because Slap Shot is a vicious burn of hockey culture/toxic masculinity/capitalism/patriarchy disguised as a bro comedy, written by a woman.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:41 AM on April 4 [15 favorites]
Never a bad idea, because Slap Shot is a vicious burn of hockey culture/toxic masculinity/capitalism/patriarchy disguised as a bro comedy, written by a woman.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:41 AM on April 4 [15 favorites]
I bet there's another timeline where strict rules against fighting lead to some sort of ridiculous proxy behavior which everyone earnestly interprets as "a fight has just broken out" even though it's like two guys having a staring competition or entire teams skating around in circles.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:41 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:41 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
> I bet there's another timeline where strict rules against fighting lead to some sort of ridiculous proxy behavior which everyone earnestly interprets as "a fight has just broken out" even though it's like two guys having a staring competition or entire teams skating around in circles.
They line up for a figure skating battle.
posted by goatdog at 8:49 AM on April 4 [4 favorites]
They line up for a figure skating battle.
posted by goatdog at 8:49 AM on April 4 [4 favorites]
Hadn't watched, but that is something. Gloves go off the second the puck is dropped. Crazy.
And have you worn hockey gloves? If I'm going to punch a dude in the helmet, I'm wanting to keep those bad boys on...
posted by Windopaene at 8:50 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]
And have you worn hockey gloves? If I'm going to punch a dude in the helmet, I'm wanting to keep those bad boys on...
posted by Windopaene at 8:50 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]
So could the goalie go down and score a goal, or is play stopped?
Even if play wasn't stopped, goalies can't cross the center line and play the puck.
Which doesn't mean that they couldn't score if play didn't stop. It'd probably be kinda funny to watch goalies just lob the puck back and forth until everyone calmed down.
posted by ghost phoneme at 8:54 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
Even if play wasn't stopped, goalies can't cross the center line and play the puck.
Which doesn't mean that they couldn't score if play didn't stop. It'd probably be kinda funny to watch goalies just lob the puck back and forth until everyone calmed down.
posted by ghost phoneme at 8:54 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
okay but what if metafilter had commenters designated as goons can i plz be an official metafilter goon plz it would be my greatest accomplishment
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:55 AM on April 4 [6 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:55 AM on April 4 [6 favorites]
They line up for a figure skating battle.
Toepick.
posted by Pickman's Next Top Model at 8:56 AM on April 4 [9 favorites]
Toepick.
posted by Pickman's Next Top Model at 8:56 AM on April 4 [9 favorites]
I did like that the goalie was just watching and picking shit up off the ice. "I'm not getting involved in any of that, and I've got more pads, so, yeah, I'm OK..."
posted by Windopaene at 8:58 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 8:58 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
> Never a bad idea, because Slap Shot is a vicious burn of hockey culture/toxic masculinity/capitalism/patriarchy disguised as a bro comedy, written by a woman.
all of that is true and also sometimes violence is hilarious and rad and it seems like some folks here have really lost perspective re: that important and very awesome fact for cool people and frankly that makes me a lil sad.
a lil sad.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:58 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
all of that is true and also sometimes violence is hilarious and rad and it seems like some folks here have really lost perspective re: that important and very awesome fact for cool people and frankly that makes me a lil sad.
a lil sad.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:58 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
Don't get me wrong, all the bro shit in Slap Shot is hilarious too.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:02 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:02 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]
> Don't get me wrong, all the bro shit in Slap Shot is hilarious too.
i'm listening to the fuckin' song!
this has been your bombastic lowercase pronouncement for the day
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:04 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
i'm listening to the fuckin' song!
this has been your bombastic lowercase pronouncement for the day
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:04 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
Also like the Devils forward who you can see mouthing "Fuck this" and just sort of skates away with a disgusted look on his face as it all starts...
posted by Windopaene at 9:05 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 9:05 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
Also like the Devils forward who you can see mouthing "Fuck this" and just sort of skates away with a disgusted look on his face as it all starts...
that was me, age maybe sixteen, when it became clear to me that the only way forward in my so-called hockey career was to drop the gloves, make fighting part of my game. I refused. And though I didn't immediately stop playing, it was the end of my taking the game seriously. I came from a hockey family. My older brother was already playing in the Juniors. And I was earmarked to follow him. I had the skills after almost ten years playing, and the size. And I really did love the game (the good parts of it anyway). But the coaches (one in particular) wouldn't get off my back about not being mean enough.
Fuck that guy. One of my first experiences of encountering an adult who seemed to despise me for simply being myself. Maybe five years later, I heard he'd killed himself ... with the suggestion that the reason was he'd been molesting some of his players.
Anyway, the roads we take.
posted by philip-random at 9:17 AM on April 4 [17 favorites]
that was me, age maybe sixteen, when it became clear to me that the only way forward in my so-called hockey career was to drop the gloves, make fighting part of my game. I refused. And though I didn't immediately stop playing, it was the end of my taking the game seriously. I came from a hockey family. My older brother was already playing in the Juniors. And I was earmarked to follow him. I had the skills after almost ten years playing, and the size. And I really did love the game (the good parts of it anyway). But the coaches (one in particular) wouldn't get off my back about not being mean enough.
Fuck that guy. One of my first experiences of encountering an adult who seemed to despise me for simply being myself. Maybe five years later, I heard he'd killed himself ... with the suggestion that the reason was he'd been molesting some of his players.
Anyway, the roads we take.
posted by philip-random at 9:17 AM on April 4 [17 favorites]
This is why I’m so excited about the potential women’s hockey league - not to say that women can’t get in fights or be abusive, but it will be a fresh start and I expect they will be able to foster a better culture from the start. It’s really a satisfying sport to watch, so it’s a shame that the men’s league has so many endemic problems.
posted by catcafe at 9:21 AM on April 4 [4 favorites]
posted by catcafe at 9:21 AM on April 4 [4 favorites]
I'm not condoning violence, but the linked story misses a couple of important facts.
According to a longer report -- which I can't find now, ugh -- the Devils' Rempe took out a Rangers player earlier in the season. The Rangers then went out and signed McDiarmid as their "enforcer." The next time they played, McDiarmid challenged Rempe, who refused to fight him, but then went and concussed the Rangers' Siegenthaler later in the game. So according to this story, the fight was the Rangers' way of saying, that's enough, Rempe, we're settling this now.
If someone who follows hockey more closely can weigh in and confirm (or correct) me, please do.
posted by martin q blank at 9:29 AM on April 4 [8 favorites]
According to a longer report -- which I can't find now, ugh -- the Devils' Rempe took out a Rangers player earlier in the season. The Rangers then went out and signed McDiarmid as their "enforcer." The next time they played, McDiarmid challenged Rempe, who refused to fight him, but then went and concussed the Rangers' Siegenthaler later in the game. So according to this story, the fight was the Rangers' way of saying, that's enough, Rempe, we're settling this now.
If someone who follows hockey more closely can weigh in and confirm (or correct) me, please do.
posted by martin q blank at 9:29 AM on April 4 [8 favorites]
that's okay i'll condone violence extra hard to make up for everyone who can't
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:49 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:49 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
This would be more entertaining without the CTE, to be honest (Bob Probert died of a heart attack but he would most likely have died of it if the heart hadn't given out first).
posted by praemunire at 9:50 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 9:50 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
that's okay i'll condone violence extra hard to make up for everyone who can't
I'm pretty sure we are talking about hockey specifically, and precipitated by the brawl last night in particular, and that display isn't exactly a case study for "hockey is losing its precious culture of violence"
or, what's your point
posted by elkevelvet at 10:00 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
I'm pretty sure we are talking about hockey specifically, and precipitated by the brawl last night in particular, and that display isn't exactly a case study for "hockey is losing its precious culture of violence"
or, what's your point
posted by elkevelvet at 10:00 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
all of that is true and also sometimes violence is hilarious and rad and it seems like some folks here have really lost perspective re: that important and very awesome fact for cool people and frankly that makes me a lil sad.
Violence also includes sexual assault, is that also cool and rad? Violence for entertainment has always been a thing, but blanket statements like this...well...more like "cool"
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:05 AM on April 4
Violence also includes sexual assault, is that also cool and rad? Violence for entertainment has always been a thing, but blanket statements like this...well...more like "cool"
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:05 AM on April 4
If the NHL actually gave a shit about this, the proper response would be something along the lines of:
1) Fine all players involved in the fight & suspend them for a few games
2) Declare the match dual forfeit and give BOTH teams a loss
3) Fine the teams/owners and require them to reimburse all ticketholders 300% of the ticket price
But I doubt they do care because WOO PUNCH THAT MOTHERF-ER HOME TEAM RULES VISITING TEAM DROOLZ or whatever.
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:17 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
1) Fine all players involved in the fight & suspend them for a few games
2) Declare the match dual forfeit and give BOTH teams a loss
3) Fine the teams/owners and require them to reimburse all ticketholders 300% of the ticket price
But I doubt they do care because WOO PUNCH THAT MOTHERF-ER HOME TEAM RULES VISITING TEAM DROOLZ or whatever.
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:17 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
that's okay i'll condone violence extra hard to make up for everyone who can't
a truly bombastic lowercase pronouncement, well played
posted by martin q blank at 10:18 AM on April 4 [4 favorites]
a truly bombastic lowercase pronouncement, well played
posted by martin q blank at 10:18 AM on April 4 [4 favorites]
It's all fun and games until someone gets brain damage
posted by bq at 10:22 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
posted by bq at 10:22 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
I'm not condoning violence, but the linked story misses a couple of important facts..
Facts which don't justify anything.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:30 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]
Facts which don't justify anything.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:30 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]
it amazes me thaf this is even news. that this is newsworthy shows how professional hockey has changed for the better... fights like this used to be a fairly routine occurance. pretty sure the Big Bad Bs had at least a few of these a season.
if what martin q blank summarized is accurate, then this is the Rangers defending one of their own against a dirty player. it'd help if the league refs weren't so terrible and could come to some kind of consistency about enforcing penalties. when they don't, teams take it into their own hands.
posted by kokaku at 10:31 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
if what martin q blank summarized is accurate, then this is the Rangers defending one of their own against a dirty player. it'd help if the league refs weren't so terrible and could come to some kind of consistency about enforcing penalties. when they don't, teams take it into their own hands.
posted by kokaku at 10:31 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
If you love Slap Shot but haven't watched Shorsey, you're missing out.
I'd quote Nat's monologue to the league over why they fight, but I'll leave that up to the reader.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:32 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
I'd quote Nat's monologue to the league over why they fight, but I'll leave that up to the reader.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:32 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
Thinking, not for the first time, how verrrrrry different things would be if hockey was a majority-Black sport.
posted by non canadian guy at 10:43 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
posted by non canadian guy at 10:43 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
posted by non canadian guy, who obviously didn't grow up idolizing jerome iginla
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:46 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:46 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
It would be nice if Rempe could make it through his first season without enough concussions to last the rest of his life, I get that he's huge and people love how game he is but he's like, 20, and would likely have a pretty promising career if he isn't just turned into an injury-ridden, crowd-pleasing goon.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:50 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:50 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]
Goon is another decent hockey movie about being a defender/enforcer. It steals a lot from Slapshot, but it's funny.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:05 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:05 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
Meh, I don't mind the fighting in the NHL, without it you'd see way more big injuries to star players. Fighting is a way to police the game a bit...
I've literally been in one fight in my whole 44 years and it was during a hockey game. I was 17, on a break away where I scored my 6th goal of the game (a regional tournament final game) and this guy slashed me so hard it broke the chassis off my skate. Then he skated into me on purpose, so I grabbed his legs and he fell on his face. I climbed on top of him and started punching him in the face. I knew my night was over since there was no way I could play on a broken skate anyway. I still have the scar on one of my knuckles where his tooth cut my hand.
posted by schyler523 at 11:22 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
I've literally been in one fight in my whole 44 years and it was during a hockey game. I was 17, on a break away where I scored my 6th goal of the game (a regional tournament final game) and this guy slashed me so hard it broke the chassis off my skate. Then he skated into me on purpose, so I grabbed his legs and he fell on his face. I climbed on top of him and started punching him in the face. I knew my night was over since there was no way I could play on a broken skate anyway. I still have the scar on one of my knuckles where his tooth cut my hand.
posted by schyler523 at 11:22 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
Fighting is a way to police the game a bit...
I hear you, and I'm not sure you could ever eliminate fighting entirely, but adequate reffing is a way to police the game also
rugby is a pretty rough sport and in my limited experience playing city league rugby, fights were not a feature of the games
posted by elkevelvet at 11:30 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
I hear you, and I'm not sure you could ever eliminate fighting entirely, but adequate reffing is a way to police the game also
rugby is a pretty rough sport and in my limited experience playing city league rugby, fights were not a feature of the games
posted by elkevelvet at 11:30 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
One of the major problems is that the NHL's player safety department is headed by an ex-goon, so the league has been no help in reining in violence on the ice.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:40 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:40 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
True, but as many sports are currently grappling with, when it comes to dirty plays, some players will take absolutely every inch a ref gives them before getting disqualified/a point deducted/a suspension (insert punishment here), resulting in a game that can be pretty uneven, depending on how willing certain refs are to enforce rules and so on.
The thought of a 6'7", 240lb Rempe sailing into you at 20 mph can certainly instill a certain enthusiasm for rule-following. Like schyler says, without that, it would be waaay more common for the younger and smaller guys to be sitting out full seasons with concussions as they got stomped around by goons who know how to make a dirty check look just this side of acceptable.
I'm not saying hockey needs fighting to be played clean, but as a sport it has the potential to be so dangerous that a certain amount of zero-tolerance fuck around and find out consequences are good, in my opinion.
And when players way overstep, like Bertuzzi, who broke Moore's neck with his disgusting sucker punch and a crosscheck, he was suspended for 17 months and received over a million dollars in penalty fees, lost salary, and lost sponsorship. He also had to complete community service and if I remember correctly had a prison sentence hanging over his head at a certain point (which he should have served, in my opinion).
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 11:44 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
The thought of a 6'7", 240lb Rempe sailing into you at 20 mph can certainly instill a certain enthusiasm for rule-following. Like schyler says, without that, it would be waaay more common for the younger and smaller guys to be sitting out full seasons with concussions as they got stomped around by goons who know how to make a dirty check look just this side of acceptable.
I'm not saying hockey needs fighting to be played clean, but as a sport it has the potential to be so dangerous that a certain amount of zero-tolerance fuck around and find out consequences are good, in my opinion.
And when players way overstep, like Bertuzzi, who broke Moore's neck with his disgusting sucker punch and a crosscheck, he was suspended for 17 months and received over a million dollars in penalty fees, lost salary, and lost sponsorship. He also had to complete community service and if I remember correctly had a prison sentence hanging over his head at a certain point (which he should have served, in my opinion).
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 11:44 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
True, but as many sports are currently grappling with, when it comes to dirty plays, some players will take absolutely every inch a ref gives them before getting disqualified/a point deducted/a suspension (insert punishment here), resulting in a game that can be pretty uneven, depending on how willing certain refs are to enforce rules and so on.
Again, that "unevenness" is because the department of the league that's supposed to enforce the rules around player safety is run by an unrepentant former goon, which means that the league routinely downplays this sort of violence unless it reaches a certain level where that isn't possible (like with Bertuzzi.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:53 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
Again, that "unevenness" is because the department of the league that's supposed to enforce the rules around player safety is run by an unrepentant former goon, which means that the league routinely downplays this sort of violence unless it reaches a certain level where that isn't possible (like with Bertuzzi.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:53 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
My two favorite goalie fights of all time were both in the AHL, and both in Philadelphia.
One was a full line brawl between the Philadelphia Phantoms and the Binghamton Senators. Everything blew up at one end of the ice, and all of a sudden the camera pulled back and we were treated to Neil Little, Flying Goalie.
The other one is more of a story than a clip. When Roman Cechmanek came to Philadelphia, he had a very brief stint (a couple of games) with the Phantoms. During one game, a brawl broke out and Cechmanek squared up with the other goalie... but the other goalie refused to engage, even doubling over for some reason. After getting tossed, Cechmanek came up in the stands to hang with the local fans and explain what had happened.
"My English is not so good," Roman noted. "I've been learning words as I go. So I thought I was saying, 'Come on and fight! You wanna fight somebody? Let's fight!' But I use the wrong F word."
For some reason, his would-be opponent couldn't stop laughing long enough to drop the gloves, which just got Roman madder and madder. What am I, a joke to you? F me!
posted by delfin at 12:22 PM on April 4 [14 favorites]
One was a full line brawl between the Philadelphia Phantoms and the Binghamton Senators. Everything blew up at one end of the ice, and all of a sudden the camera pulled back and we were treated to Neil Little, Flying Goalie.
The other one is more of a story than a clip. When Roman Cechmanek came to Philadelphia, he had a very brief stint (a couple of games) with the Phantoms. During one game, a brawl broke out and Cechmanek squared up with the other goalie... but the other goalie refused to engage, even doubling over for some reason. After getting tossed, Cechmanek came up in the stands to hang with the local fans and explain what had happened.
"My English is not so good," Roman noted. "I've been learning words as I go. So I thought I was saying, 'Come on and fight! You wanna fight somebody? Let's fight!' But I use the wrong F word."
For some reason, his would-be opponent couldn't stop laughing long enough to drop the gloves, which just got Roman madder and madder. What am I, a joke to you? F me!
posted by delfin at 12:22 PM on April 4 [14 favorites]
I am Canadian and I've never understood why fighting is considered "part" of hockey. It's so weird that there's this one sport where it's not only tolerated but actively encouraged as a part of the game to the point where teams will take up a spot on the team and pay somebody just to act as an "enforcer." I just don't get the necessity, I guess? Especially at a professional level.
rugby is a pretty rough sport and in my limited experience playing city league rugby, fights were not a feature of the games
I played rugby as well, in high school. I remember well that after probably the roughest game we ever played on the pitch, we approached the other team... but to exchange high fives and pats on the back, congratulating everyone for a match well played. I know that fights do happen in rugby, but it's very different from what I see in hockey.
posted by synecdoche at 12:22 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
rugby is a pretty rough sport and in my limited experience playing city league rugby, fights were not a feature of the games
I played rugby as well, in high school. I remember well that after probably the roughest game we ever played on the pitch, we approached the other team... but to exchange high fives and pats on the back, congratulating everyone for a match well played. I know that fights do happen in rugby, but it's very different from what I see in hockey.
posted by synecdoche at 12:22 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
I have a family friend who's a pro NFL player and when he was being scouted, he said all he wanted was to not be picked by the Rangers or the Devils. He was incredibly relieved when he went to the Panthers.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 12:25 PM on April 4
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 12:25 PM on April 4
who's a pro NFL player
I'm confused. either you typed an F instead of an H, or the family friend is one of those prodigies who just excels in multiple sports?
posted by elkevelvet at 12:33 PM on April 4
I'm confused. either you typed an F instead of an H, or the family friend is one of those prodigies who just excels in multiple sports?
posted by elkevelvet at 12:33 PM on April 4
I'm old enough to remember when everyone knew a puck drop fight was simply on the card for the night. Like everyone knew Tie Domi and Bob Probert were going to fight in advance and for no other reason than to see who was the champ of the enforcers.
There are consequences of the removal of much of the fighting and enforcers. The NHL is much less likely to have Gretzky level superstar outliers ever again because there is no enforcer protecting the incredible players now. They have to take their lumps and with those lumps come injuries, concussions and shorter careers - Eric Lindros, Mario Lemieux being two big examples. They got hammered and were frequently injured while almost nobody touched Gretzky because if they did then they had to deal with guys like Semenko or McSorely retaliating with multiples of force.
I'm definitely not saying it was right to have enforcer culture but it came from a need at the time and hockey is a pretty frustrating game when someone can spend a whole game harassing you with constant stickwork that slides just under the rules or more accurately against the actual rules but under the refs threshold for enforcing the rules. I also think the chippy choppy-ness of the modern game is in part because of the loss of enforcers. A game of beauty and flow punctuated with occasional bodychecking has become instead a game of really big strong guys preserving through endless physical nagging and the entertainment value has suffered for it
posted by srboisvert at 12:41 PM on April 4 [6 favorites]
There are consequences of the removal of much of the fighting and enforcers. The NHL is much less likely to have Gretzky level superstar outliers ever again because there is no enforcer protecting the incredible players now. They have to take their lumps and with those lumps come injuries, concussions and shorter careers - Eric Lindros, Mario Lemieux being two big examples. They got hammered and were frequently injured while almost nobody touched Gretzky because if they did then they had to deal with guys like Semenko or McSorely retaliating with multiples of force.
I'm definitely not saying it was right to have enforcer culture but it came from a need at the time and hockey is a pretty frustrating game when someone can spend a whole game harassing you with constant stickwork that slides just under the rules or more accurately against the actual rules but under the refs threshold for enforcing the rules. I also think the chippy choppy-ness of the modern game is in part because of the loss of enforcers. A game of beauty and flow punctuated with occasional bodychecking has become instead a game of really big strong guys preserving through endless physical nagging and the entertainment value has suffered for it
posted by srboisvert at 12:41 PM on April 4 [6 favorites]
I'd still like to see someone take out Brendan Smith for breaking Bedard's jaw back in January.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:46 PM on April 4 [2 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:46 PM on April 4 [2 favorites]
For those of you who are offended by men playing a rough and bloody sport, there's always the annual badminton tournament. But be warned there is
an item called a shuttlecock involved. Always good to know these things beforehand.
posted by Czjewel at 12:57 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
an item called a shuttlecock involved. Always good to know these things beforehand.
posted by Czjewel at 12:57 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
Facts which don't justify anything.
Like I said, Thorzdad, not condoning the violence. But this was unusual even for hockey (I went to a lot of D1 college and AHL games for years) and so I thought it needed more explanation. It sounds Rempe's play was outside the "unwritten code" (which is usually rubbish in every sport) and that prompted the full-on melee. IOW, it wasn't a reaction to just one hit. It doesn't justify the violence *to me* but it might for the players.
posted by martin q blank at 1:00 PM on April 4
Like I said, Thorzdad, not condoning the violence. But this was unusual even for hockey (I went to a lot of D1 college and AHL games for years) and so I thought it needed more explanation. It sounds Rempe's play was outside the "unwritten code" (which is usually rubbish in every sport) and that prompted the full-on melee. IOW, it wasn't a reaction to just one hit. It doesn't justify the violence *to me* but it might for the players.
posted by martin q blank at 1:00 PM on April 4
but it might for the players
absolutely
every team has a few players and among other things they are the ones who are expected to 'respond' and/or make those physical plays to help rally the troops etc. we don't use the word 'enforcer' as much these days, and I hope that means we are getting away from the worst of it. the worst of it is when cheap shots and deliberate infliction of career threatening injuries sideline the gifted players.. line brawls should be remarkable and infrequent at the elite level, there are actual fighting sports if that's what you're into and hockey is about a hell of a lot more than fighting and violence.
posted by elkevelvet at 1:12 PM on April 4 [2 favorites]
absolutely
every team has a few players and among other things they are the ones who are expected to 'respond' and/or make those physical plays to help rally the troops etc. we don't use the word 'enforcer' as much these days, and I hope that means we are getting away from the worst of it. the worst of it is when cheap shots and deliberate infliction of career threatening injuries sideline the gifted players.. line brawls should be remarkable and infrequent at the elite level, there are actual fighting sports if that's what you're into and hockey is about a hell of a lot more than fighting and violence.
posted by elkevelvet at 1:12 PM on April 4 [2 favorites]
> For those of you who are offended by men playing a rough and bloody sport, there's always the annual badminton tournament. But be warned there is an item called a shuttlecock involved. Always good to know these things beforehand.
You think people too sensitive for hockey can stomach the gut-churning brutality of badminton?
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 1:15 PM on April 4 [7 favorites]
You think people too sensitive for hockey can stomach the gut-churning brutality of badminton?
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 1:15 PM on April 4 [7 favorites]
line brawls should be remarkable and infrequent at the elite level
And... they are? Hence why people are so excited about seeing this one.
The Hockey News:
Through the first 368 games of the 2023-24 season, we've seen 97 fights in the NHL, according to hockeyfights.com. That works out to 0.2636 fights per game, or a little more than one fight every four games.
And that's an increase over recent years, as well as the vast majority of those 97 fights having been one-on-one grapples. There is plenty of room for argument that fighting should be simply outlawed in pro hockey, but it's not as if blood on the ice is a guarantee on your nightly ticket.
posted by delfin at 1:28 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
And... they are? Hence why people are so excited about seeing this one.
The Hockey News:
Through the first 368 games of the 2023-24 season, we've seen 97 fights in the NHL, according to hockeyfights.com. That works out to 0.2636 fights per game, or a little more than one fight every four games.
And that's an increase over recent years, as well as the vast majority of those 97 fights having been one-on-one grapples. There is plenty of room for argument that fighting should be simply outlawed in pro hockey, but it's not as if blood on the ice is a guarantee on your nightly ticket.
posted by delfin at 1:28 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
I am Canadian and I've never understood why fighting is considered "part" of hockey.
too much Viking in our blood?
WARNING: link is to a scene from the movie Northman. Some pretty savage stuff in there.
posted by philip-random at 1:48 PM on April 4
too much Viking in our blood?
WARNING: link is to a scene from the movie Northman. Some pretty savage stuff in there.
posted by philip-random at 1:48 PM on April 4
philip-random. I'm deep into The Vikings on Netflix. Holy cannoli, they did not mess around when it came to hand to hand combat.
posted by Czjewel at 1:52 PM on April 4
posted by Czjewel at 1:52 PM on April 4
My Canadian husband just went on a tirade of why this behaviour in hockey is absolutely necessary… because the game is so fast moving the refs can barely catch a portion of the fouls, so it’s up to the players themselves to enforce standards in this tit for tat manner to keep the assholes in line. Much like keeping a dictator in check. You have to hit back at the first sign of assholery.
I mean I think it’s stupid but I was surprised at the passion with which he argued for grown men beating each other up I’m still processing that one tbh
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:14 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
I mean I think it’s stupid but I was surprised at the passion with which he argued for grown men beating each other up I’m still processing that one tbh
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:14 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
Or maybe it’s because as a country we are so fucking passive in almost all other ways so need to get it out somehow
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:15 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:15 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
college hockey is not very violent because players are students. it's still a great (if not even better) game. there's also women's hockey (where I think body checks are not allowed?)
posted by Vegiemon at 2:37 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
posted by Vegiemon at 2:37 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
Checked back in to see the nonsense from defenders of fighting and goonery in hockey, was not disappointed.
posted by goatdog at 2:42 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
posted by goatdog at 2:42 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
Fighting isn't allowed in college hockey. At minimum it's a 5-minute major, normally it's an ejection plus suspension on top of the five.
Like Nat says, if the fans want to watch speed and finesse they can watch the World Juniors. (Shorsey: It's fucking basketball!)
posted by JoeZydeco at 3:13 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
Like Nat says, if the fans want to watch speed and finesse they can watch the World Juniors. (Shorsey: It's fucking basketball!)
posted by JoeZydeco at 3:13 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
Women's professional hockey, at least the PWHL, allows checking but not open-ice hits. It's quite physical, and I've read in various places that the players are not thrilled at the constraints on their play.
St. Peepsburg, I see it the same way as your husband (and am in fact Canadian); the refs do a damn fine job, but they cannot watch everything, and the players see more of it than they do. I believe hockey would be a lot more violent of a sport without fighting, honestly, and a lot less fun to watch because it wouldn't be possible for the truly skilled players to play.
posted by ChrisR at 3:17 PM on April 4 [2 favorites]
St. Peepsburg, I see it the same way as your husband (and am in fact Canadian); the refs do a damn fine job, but they cannot watch everything, and the players see more of it than they do. I believe hockey would be a lot more violent of a sport without fighting, honestly, and a lot less fun to watch because it wouldn't be possible for the truly skilled players to play.
posted by ChrisR at 3:17 PM on April 4 [2 favorites]
goatdog, i don't get your need to snark
a bunch of folks who follow hockey are explaining the dynamics to a bunch of folks who don't, while also noting that there isn't nearly the level of fighting seen in the past.
two guys squaring up while being covered in pads is really just venting frustration more than the kind of damage yd see in a street fight.
teams have high value players who you don't want to see take a penalty or get an injury. but you can't have a whole team of them. so there are players who take liberties with those high value players when the refs aren't looking (or sometimes when they are). you can't let them get away with that so you have one of. your not high value players fight one of their not high value players to keep things in line.
it's kind of the nature of the game and having very large strong guys skating and playing physically.
posted by kokaku at 3:24 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
a bunch of folks who follow hockey are explaining the dynamics to a bunch of folks who don't, while also noting that there isn't nearly the level of fighting seen in the past.
two guys squaring up while being covered in pads is really just venting frustration more than the kind of damage yd see in a street fight.
teams have high value players who you don't want to see take a penalty or get an injury. but you can't have a whole team of them. so there are players who take liberties with those high value players when the refs aren't looking (or sometimes when they are). you can't let them get away with that so you have one of. your not high value players fight one of their not high value players to keep things in line.
it's kind of the nature of the game and having very large strong guys skating and playing physically.
posted by kokaku at 3:24 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
Plus, as a gay man, it's just plain hot to watch the guys beating on each other. A fan of those cage fights too.
posted by Czjewel at 3:38 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
posted by Czjewel at 3:38 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
Czjewel, I assume you're familiar with the sloppiest and most handsome fight of all time, Costa v. Rockhold?
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 3:50 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 3:50 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
Hockey is a good example of the two levels of rules in games.
Some rules incur penalties when broken. Other rules, when broken, are cheating. Fights in hockey are like fouls in basketball. They're not cheating, they're part of playing the game.
At the other end of the spectrum from hockey's violence we have -- if not badminton -- then soccer (football). Hard to imagine a hockey player flopping to try to game the reff.
posted by Richard Daly at 4:00 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
Some rules incur penalties when broken. Other rules, when broken, are cheating. Fights in hockey are like fouls in basketball. They're not cheating, they're part of playing the game.
At the other end of the spectrum from hockey's violence we have -- if not badminton -- then soccer (football). Hard to imagine a hockey player flopping to try to game the reff.
posted by Richard Daly at 4:00 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
> It was a different time
complete lack of hockey hair
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:22 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
complete lack of hockey hair
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:22 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
Hard to imagine a hockey player flopping to try to game the reff.
No need to imagine it when you can just watch a Penguins game.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 5:06 PM on April 4 [10 favorites]
No need to imagine it when you can just watch a Penguins game.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 5:06 PM on April 4 [10 favorites]
I don't understand what people are upset about. This isn't violence. It's ritual, it's spectacle, it's almost a Mutual-Of-Omaha's-Wild-Kingdom-level display of mating courtship, but it's not violence.
These are enormous, muscular men who do physical conditioning professionally. If they wanted to hurt each other, they would. Hockey fights have been going on for hundreds of years now; if the players wanted to hurt each other, there would be a whole hockey martial arts discipline by now. There'd be full-on MMA style brawls, not this polite punch-each-other-in-the-padding how-do-you-do.
I don't see the need to get upset about it. I think they look kind of adorable out there, like little kids going at it in snow suits.
posted by MrVisible at 6:29 PM on April 4 [2 favorites]
These are enormous, muscular men who do physical conditioning professionally. If they wanted to hurt each other, they would. Hockey fights have been going on for hundreds of years now; if the players wanted to hurt each other, there would be a whole hockey martial arts discipline by now. There'd be full-on MMA style brawls, not this polite punch-each-other-in-the-padding how-do-you-do.
I don't see the need to get upset about it. I think they look kind of adorable out there, like little kids going at it in snow suits.
posted by MrVisible at 6:29 PM on April 4 [2 favorites]
This isn't violence. It's ritual
It can be both. It's also not WWF, and you've clearly not played hockey.
posted by kjs3 at 6:43 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
It can be both. It's also not WWF, and you've clearly not played hockey.
posted by kjs3 at 6:43 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
I haven't played hockey, but I've experienced actual violence.
It's not nearly this polite.
This is either assault, where both parties are trying to do violence to each other, and should be arrested and prosecuted accordingly, or it's ritualistic spectacle, designed to entertain but not injure.
There's no harm in being the latter, really. Plus, they all look so cute spinning around on their little skates like that.
posted by MrVisible at 6:54 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
It's not nearly this polite.
This is either assault, where both parties are trying to do violence to each other, and should be arrested and prosecuted accordingly, or it's ritualistic spectacle, designed to entertain but not injure.
There's no harm in being the latter, really. Plus, they all look so cute spinning around on their little skates like that.
posted by MrVisible at 6:54 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]
That's some pure, distilled sophistry right there: there's only prosecutable levels of violence or theater. I played rugby in college...clearly I should be on death row. I'm sure I was somehow condescendingly cute too.
posted by kjs3 at 7:40 PM on April 4
posted by kjs3 at 7:40 PM on April 4
No, rugby is also simulated violence, so you're fine. And yeah, a lot of rugby players are cute as hell. It's fun to watch them get out their aggression in a safe, controlled space. I'm all for it. I don't get upset about that either.
posted by MrVisible at 7:47 PM on April 4
posted by MrVisible at 7:47 PM on April 4
Fighting keeps hockey honest. It's not the only tool for it, but it's nice to have it available when the refs let you down. And at the pace of an NHL game, two refs on the ice can let you down a lot. Plus frankly, as a fan watching, it's nice to see someone get some kind of comeuppance for a cheap hit against your team.
If that part of the game is not your jam, that's cool, but don't pretend like hockey is doing something that it isn't. The league promotes goal scorers, not fighters. A quality hockey game is about rhythm and skill, not who can rack up the most penalty minutes.
The lack of physicality in women's hockey has everything to do with not wanting pictures of bruises on womens' faces and nothing to do with the integrity of the game. The players in the PWHL successfully got more body checking, at least.
posted by lock robster at 10:04 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
If that part of the game is not your jam, that's cool, but don't pretend like hockey is doing something that it isn't. The league promotes goal scorers, not fighters. A quality hockey game is about rhythm and skill, not who can rack up the most penalty minutes.
The lack of physicality in women's hockey has everything to do with not wanting pictures of bruises on womens' faces and nothing to do with the integrity of the game. The players in the PWHL successfully got more body checking, at least.
posted by lock robster at 10:04 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
Shoresy is genuinely phenomenal.
posted by Gadarene at 2:52 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
posted by Gadarene at 2:52 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
At one time the goalies wore no face masks either! The photos of their faces are not pretty.
posted by DJZouke at 5:07 AM on April 5
posted by DJZouke at 5:07 AM on April 5
I think there is something to be said for fighting in the past as a way to protect your valuable skill players because the referees tolerated more AND couldn't possibly see everything. But now, every single NHL arena has a dozen or more HD cameras capturing the ice from all sorts of angles and it is all recorded and reviewable. If the NHL had the will they could review the dangerous play and the cheap shots and retroactively punish people. After awhile that would all but eliminate fighting save for the things that happen in the heat of the moment.
This is really akin to flopping in soccer which was legitimately rampant in the game. It hasn't been eliminated but at a high level, everyone knows the plays are going to be reviewed and you will get penalized if you are egregiously faking.
posted by mmascolino at 7:35 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
This is really akin to flopping in soccer which was legitimately rampant in the game. It hasn't been eliminated but at a high level, everyone knows the plays are going to be reviewed and you will get penalized if you are egregiously faking.
posted by mmascolino at 7:35 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
designed to entertain but not injure.
This is absolutely real violence with real consequences. The problem is that it DOES injure. If no one actually got hurt I wouldn’t give a fuck. But this story includes a player out for four games because he got concussed by an elbow to the head, a former player committing suicide because of brain damage sustained during his playing years, and a group sexual assault and someone getting choked out on ice from Junior players. Only the sexual assault and the choker involve any legal consequences and the 2018 sexual assault almost didn’t get investigated or prosecuted AT ALL.
The problem is that this violence, which you might claim is 100% consensual, has consequences for the players and the community off the field, long-term consequences.
The problem is that this is an exploitative capitalist system which is built off the broken bodies of low-income enthusiasts that it doesn’t care about protecting.
posted by bq at 7:45 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
This is absolutely real violence with real consequences. The problem is that it DOES injure. If no one actually got hurt I wouldn’t give a fuck. But this story includes a player out for four games because he got concussed by an elbow to the head, a former player committing suicide because of brain damage sustained during his playing years, and a group sexual assault and someone getting choked out on ice from Junior players. Only the sexual assault and the choker involve any legal consequences and the 2018 sexual assault almost didn’t get investigated or prosecuted AT ALL.
The problem is that this violence, which you might claim is 100% consensual, has consequences for the players and the community off the field, long-term consequences.
The problem is that this is an exploitative capitalist system which is built off the broken bodies of low-income enthusiasts that it doesn’t care about protecting.
posted by bq at 7:45 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
The lack of physicality in women's hockey has everything to do with not wanting pictures of bruises on womens' faces and nothing to do with the integrity of the game. The players in the PWHL successfully got more body checking, at least.
Real question, how was this prevented in women’s hockey if it’s so difficult to police the ice that fighting is required by the players to do it in men’s hockey?
posted by bq at 7:47 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
Real question, how was this prevented in women’s hockey if it’s so difficult to police the ice that fighting is required by the players to do it in men’s hockey?
posted by bq at 7:47 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
I have to go back to the rugby comparison
brutally physical, but in my experience fighting on the field was so rare I can't recall a single fight on the field during a match, when I played. it's a culture thing.. you think the refs are catching all the dirty stuff in rugby? it's a famously self-policed sport, but you don't see fighting nearly as often
I can see a lot of commenters here have bought into "fighting is a part of hockey" even me to some extent, but I think culture comes from something and we can question long-held beliefs. The better protective equipment does lend a sense of invulnerability, but the speed of play and the consequences of real injury alone are factors we should consider. I do not miss the old Don Cherry Rock 'Em Sock 'Em days, I can watch WWE if I want that shit
hockey will always be a physically impactful sport, I just don't think fighting in hockey is integral to it
and Shoresy is a one-note series, I kind of feel like Letterkenny got dumber too. to each their own
posted by elkevelvet at 8:21 AM on April 5
brutally physical, but in my experience fighting on the field was so rare I can't recall a single fight on the field during a match, when I played. it's a culture thing.. you think the refs are catching all the dirty stuff in rugby? it's a famously self-policed sport, but you don't see fighting nearly as often
I can see a lot of commenters here have bought into "fighting is a part of hockey" even me to some extent, but I think culture comes from something and we can question long-held beliefs. The better protective equipment does lend a sense of invulnerability, but the speed of play and the consequences of real injury alone are factors we should consider. I do not miss the old Don Cherry Rock 'Em Sock 'Em days, I can watch WWE if I want that shit
hockey will always be a physically impactful sport, I just don't think fighting in hockey is integral to it
and Shoresy is a one-note series, I kind of feel like Letterkenny got dumber too. to each their own
posted by elkevelvet at 8:21 AM on April 5
Water polo is similarly exceedingly brutal (under the water where no one can see) but AFAIK there is no culture of squaring off and trading punches while treading water (new potential hybrid Olympic sport). Is there something about the game design with its frequent breaks that allows for these fights to occur. In baseball, the only other sport that I know of that has these planned retaliatory aspects to it, the fights and action happens when the player comes to bat and a pitcher purposefully throws at the batter.
posted by mmascolino at 8:32 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
posted by mmascolino at 8:32 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
Rugby has, from my experience, a specific culture of not fighting, with lots of camaraderie and all that and an overriding sense of "it's all part of the game." But it also, as a sport, has vicious hits built into it - there are guys whose entire job is to flatten smaller, faster guys. Not much need for policing dirty hits when you can just wait until play resumes and squash a guy 100% legally. I've also had someone's fingers in my nose in a scrum though, so.
There is also less of a finesse and pure skill angle to rugby (inb4 someone tells me that rugby is a game of pure finesse). A McDavid, Crosby, or Gretzky level stick wizard is just not something you see in rugby, and if it was, those guys would be punished with undue physical attention and injury just like in hockey. Sure, it's not necessary to fight, but the way the current game is played is that you have a loose substrate of bruisers that all beat on each other, and a substrate of sharpshooters that all try to avoid that as much as possible.
Also I think a lot of people who aren't hockey watchers are kind of missing a key part of the puzzle here -- the fights aren't the enforcement. The fights are a kind of ritualized "oh you think you're so tough" gut check. The enforcement is heavy hits. The reason you don't go after a small high-scoring guy is the fear of a brutal check into the boards or getting dumped out on open ice. If you don't want to fight a guy you just don't fight a guy, it's not like someone would throw their gloves off and start punching you if you didn't also drop your stick and square up. If they ban fights, which they won't do, but if they banned fights you would just see a lot of guys getting snapped in half in much less fair checks during play.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 8:39 AM on April 5
There is also less of a finesse and pure skill angle to rugby (inb4 someone tells me that rugby is a game of pure finesse). A McDavid, Crosby, or Gretzky level stick wizard is just not something you see in rugby, and if it was, those guys would be punished with undue physical attention and injury just like in hockey. Sure, it's not necessary to fight, but the way the current game is played is that you have a loose substrate of bruisers that all beat on each other, and a substrate of sharpshooters that all try to avoid that as much as possible.
Also I think a lot of people who aren't hockey watchers are kind of missing a key part of the puzzle here -- the fights aren't the enforcement. The fights are a kind of ritualized "oh you think you're so tough" gut check. The enforcement is heavy hits. The reason you don't go after a small high-scoring guy is the fear of a brutal check into the boards or getting dumped out on open ice. If you don't want to fight a guy you just don't fight a guy, it's not like someone would throw their gloves off and start punching you if you didn't also drop your stick and square up. If they ban fights, which they won't do, but if they banned fights you would just see a lot of guys getting snapped in half in much less fair checks during play.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 8:39 AM on April 5
The problem is that this is an exploitative capitalist system which is built off the broken bodies of low-income enthusiasts that it doesn’t care about protecting.
Look not taking a side on hockey violence but hockey players are absolutely NOT largely low-income enthusiasts. Hockey is an extraordinarily expensive sport to play at the level that gets you to the NHL.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:43 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
Look not taking a side on hockey violence but hockey players are absolutely NOT largely low-income enthusiasts. Hockey is an extraordinarily expensive sport to play at the level that gets you to the NHL.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:43 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
I suppose the most drastic example was that of a young man by the name of Max Strang, a goaltender from the Pittsburgh area. He wanted to play in the Greater Toronto Hockey League (G.T.H.L.) so badly that his parents both quit their jobs and sold their house. For three years they lived on a boat, in 150 square feet of living space, in Port Credit Harbour near Toronto.
Their son played three years for three different teams in the G.T.H.L. and is now playing at Mercyhurst College in Erie, Pa., where he's getting more academic scholarship money than athletic.
posted by bq at 9:43 AM on April 5
NCAA hockey does not allow fighting but it, too, suffers from way too many breaks in the action in the style of, "you hit my guy too hard, even if it was a 'clean' hit, so we're going to jaw and grab at each other a bunch and pretend that something is going to happen until the linesmen break us up."
On the other hand, coaches can instigate video reviews for major penalties (usually, dangerous hits from behind/to the head) even if no minor infraction was originally called, which I don't think is yet allowed in the NHL.
posted by AndrewInDC at 10:00 AM on April 5
On the other hand, coaches can instigate video reviews for major penalties (usually, dangerous hits from behind/to the head) even if no minor infraction was originally called, which I don't think is yet allowed in the NHL.
posted by AndrewInDC at 10:00 AM on April 5
Real question, how was this prevented in women’s hockey if it’s so difficult to police the ice that fighting is required by the players to do it in men’s hockey?
the women's game isn't as fast as the men's and the players in men's hockey are much bigger (i.e. checks hit harder)
posted by kokaku at 4:31 PM on April 5
the women's game isn't as fast as the men's and the players in men's hockey are much bigger (i.e. checks hit harder)
posted by kokaku at 4:31 PM on April 5
I think all games that involve sticks,balls and oppositional players, resolves the Oedipus conflicts deep within culture.
You are the puck, the goal net is Mom, the opponent is Dad.
when the goal is accomplished the team audience rises in response and raises their arms as if again to be as toddlers, waiting to be picked up out of the bath and wrapped in a swaddling towel and perhaps suckled by her or his mother and dad's out of the picture for a few moments.
Titties and beer.
Golf on the other hand is just you the ball your Dad,the club and your mom ,300 yards away.
Hey I had a few beers with a total jock psychology major, one time.
posted by hortense at 5:33 PM on April 5 [3 favorites]
You are the puck, the goal net is Mom, the opponent is Dad.
when the goal is accomplished the team audience rises in response and raises their arms as if again to be as toddlers, waiting to be picked up out of the bath and wrapped in a swaddling towel and perhaps suckled by her or his mother and dad's out of the picture for a few moments.
Titties and beer.
Golf on the other hand is just you the ball your Dad,the club and your mom ,300 yards away.
Hey I had a few beers with a total jock psychology major, one time.
posted by hortense at 5:33 PM on April 5 [3 favorites]
Real question, how was this prevented in women’s hockey if it’s so difficult to police the ice that fighting is required by the players to do it in men’s hockey?
Also, in addition to kokaku's answer, open ice hits aren't how the disciplinary violence usually happens, it's against the boards, which is allowed.
posted by ChrisR at 9:34 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
Also, in addition to kokaku's answer, open ice hits aren't how the disciplinary violence usually happens, it's against the boards, which is allowed.
posted by ChrisR at 9:34 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
https://www.metafilter.com/203195/The-second-the-puck-hit-the-ice-absolute-mayhem-broke-loose#8544067
martin q blank,
You've got who plays on which team reversed.
posted by oldnumberseven at 1:23 AM on April 7
martin q blank,
You've got who plays on which team reversed.
posted by oldnumberseven at 1:23 AM on April 7
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