Eminem

November 13, 2002 3:10 PM

Did the election of Bush create an environment that would allow a violent misogynist like Eminem to become famous? Or, does Eminem's popularity reflect how easily we are blinded by nice wrapping? This article looks into what this kind of popularity could indicate to us about our present social conditions.
posted by Raichle (75 comments total)

Or nice rapping (sorry).
posted by lerrup at 3:18 PM on November 13, 2002

Huh, here I was thinking Eminem became popular during the Clinton administration.
posted by WolfDaddy at 3:20 PM on November 13, 2002

So did the election of Clinton allow 2 Live Crew to become famous? The election of Reagan help out Andrew Dice Clay? Gimme a break - these entertainers are popular because we have a sick, perverted culture.
posted by TheFarSeid at 3:24 PM on November 13, 2002

Did the election of Bush create an environment that would allow a violent misogynist like Eminem to become famous?

No.

Next question? :-)
posted by oissubke at 3:24 PM on November 13, 2002

lerrup you beat me to it! As for the article itself, seeing as how Eminem became famous during the Clinton administration, i really fail to see how this article has any value except for republican bashing.
posted by gatorae at 3:24 PM on November 13, 2002

so... a little while back, the poster of this post was accused of trolling. Is this one any different? If yes, how? Or is it just that the agenda-weaving so transparent in Raichle's wording that makes me uncomfortable?
posted by bokononito at 3:26 PM on November 13, 2002

republican bashing

Here at Mefi? Say it an't so!
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 3:27 PM on November 13, 2002

bokononito: no, yes.
posted by turbodog at 3:29 PM on November 13, 2002

he's a violent misogynist? here I am thinking he's just an angry guy who hates his ex-wife.
posted by angry modem at 3:29 PM on November 13, 2002

People seem to enjoy his creative output. Go figure. Bush didn't do anything to make Eminem famous. Where do you get that idea?

And what the heck does "blinded by nice wrapping" mean? You lost me there. The kid has talent. He might *also* have a shitty message, but it seem a bit hypocritical to trash his obvious creativity just because you don't like what he's saying. He's a pop construct who has been propped up by dumb consumers and the Bush agenda?

I don't get it.
posted by y6y6y6 at 3:30 PM on November 13, 2002

Wow, that's the lamest Richard Goldstein piece I've ever read. What a stretch, although he does get in a fun dig at Frank Rich.
posted by mediareport at 3:32 PM on November 13, 2002

Elvis had a #1 album after Dubya was elected. And during the Eisenhower administration. So, what's the point? Did Dubya's election allow Elvis to become famous? No.

I think Eminem topping the charts is more a result of the dearth of musical choices. Bill Wyman said The Rolling Stones would have no chance today.
posted by Frank Grimes at 3:32 PM on November 13, 2002

Or, does Eminem's popularity reflect how easily we are blinded by nice wrapping?

<<Yeah, I choose that one.
The proof would be in a mysogynist succeding in having his face plastered on the cover of every teeny-girl magazine in circulation- "'cuz he has that bad-boy look".
posted by degnarra at 3:33 PM on November 13, 2002

Did the election of Bush create an environment that would allow a violent misogynist like Eminem to become famous?

This is a leading question. It assumes Eminem is a violent misogynist. He is not.

Oh wait, I get it! This is a test to see if we read the post the other day about Sagan's Baloney Detector right? Umm, I guess this falls under Begging the question.

Do I win?
posted by Bonzai at 3:37 PM on November 13, 2002

I hate Eminem. His music is sensationalist and is written to sell. For that reason I admire him (for manipulating our stupid society). Likewise, I hate Bush, but I admire him for the weasle that he is. Eminem's new music on the soundtrack though almost carries a positive message of shooting for your dreams, and his movie looks decent, I will probably go and see it. But just know that he exaggerates the fact that he wasn't born with a silver spoon in his mouth, and I haven't seen the movie yet, but I would guess that when kids walk away from it, instead of walking away feeling they can shoot for their dreams, they will probably think that they can be a professional rapper.
posted by banished at 3:37 PM on November 13, 2002

"'cuz he has that bad-boy look".

He must have changed a lot since the last time I saw him....
posted by oissubke at 3:46 PM on November 13, 2002

This is a leading question. It assumes Eminem is a violent misogynist

He may not be one, but he protrays one. Some would argue that that's the vital difference and that's exactly the point of the Eminem-genre artists- but this doesn't work when the line between image and reality becomes a blur. You have twelve-year olds all over North America worshipping and emulating the guy- like they know the difference between what he is and what he portrays.

As for the bad-boy look comment- Note the quotation marks.
posted by degnarra at 3:53 PM on November 13, 2002

This is a leading question. It assumes Eminem is a violent misogynist

He may not be one, but he protrays one. Some would argue that that's the vital difference and that's exactly the point of the Eminem-genre artists- but this doesn't work when the line between image and reality becomes a blur. You have twelve-year olds all over North America worshipping and emulating the guy- like they know the difference between what he is and what he portrays.

As for the bad-boy look comment- Note the quotation marks. Don't ask me, ask YM.
posted by degnarra at 3:59 PM on November 13, 2002

Just for the record, I think there's a huge population that likes (or at least doesn't want to censor) Eminem and hates Bush, his policies, and his ilk.

Also for the record: yes, this post is lame.
posted by zekinskia at 4:01 PM on November 13, 2002

Goldstein isn't arguing that Bush's election contributed to Eminem being popular, only that there are some parallels between the two. His 'sexual backlash' point should have stood on its own - the Bush tie-in weakened the whole thing a bit, especially since Lynne Cheney is one of the few people to take the hopelessly unfashionable position that there might be something wrong with Eminem. But Goldstein really nailed the raw calculation of 8 Mile's Eminem-as-good-guy approach.
posted by transona5 at 4:04 PM on November 13, 2002

hmm it could be argued that the masses that are buying Eminem's albums have no clue nor cares as to who the heck is in the white house. Hell I didn't give a damn between the ages of 16-23

And I sheepishly have to admit while his lyrics can be quite abusive (I mean jesus "cleaning out my closet" should warrant Xanax prescription alone) I have to admit Eminem is skilled at what he does.
posted by bitdamaged at 4:10 PM on November 13, 2002

Regardless of the validity of Goldstein's other points (is "P.C. backlash" a big problem right now? Yes. Is it Bush's fault? Doubtful), the swipes at Frank Rich are totally unjustified. As someone who strongly dislikes Eminem's music, I found Rich's article quite insightful, and it certainly did not endorse Eminem's hateful lyrics. Rich had interviewed Eminem before the release of his movie and wrote about his impressions of the man and the cultural phenomenon that he has created. It was a fairly in-depth, multipage article in the NYT Magazine. True, the article was not particularly critical of Eminem, but it didn't exactly sing his praises either. Like Goldstien, Rich pointed out that 8 Mile is calculated to give Eminem a new nice-guy image and broaden his appeal. Goldstein makes it sound like Rich used his Op-Ed column to celebrate his insightful lyrics.
posted by boltman at 4:14 PM on November 13, 2002

He may not be one, but he protrays one. Some would argue that that's the vital difference and that's exactly the point of the Eminem-genre artists- but this doesn't work when the line between image and reality becomes a blur. You have twelve-year olds all over North America worshipping and emulating the guy- like they know the difference between what he is and what he portrays.

it's no fault of his if his audience is unable to distinguish. i don't even like rap, but it's not as if "sympathy for the devil" makes mick jagger a satanist. and if you can't tell the difference, it's certainly not mick's fault.
posted by juv3nal at 4:17 PM on November 13, 2002

Republican bashers keep making one critical mistake: they harp on the mistaken notion that Republican leaders are *dumb*. This is one main reason why they keep getting their teeth kicked in by what they call "dirty tricks."

Take Dubyah, for example. A year before his nomination he had sewn up every loose dime in the Republican coffers, a entire town--a "Potempkin Village", Crawford, Texas, was created out of thin air to sponsor a brand new ranch built *just* for his Presidency, and he had already selected his cabinet, discreetly. These are not the acts of a dimwit. A cold, calculating Byzantine Machiavellian perhaps, but a dullard, no.

Now, I am not a fan of the Republican way, but it makes me cringe when I hear Democrats *insist* that every Republican leader since Nixon was an imbecile. And all the sweetness and illumination and the New York Times Review of Books approbation of Democrat candidates will serve them little if they think they will win a bare knuckle gutter fight simply because they deserve to.
posted by kablam at 4:27 PM on November 13, 2002

Could someone (maybe Raichle) here tell us what violence Eminem has been involved in?
posted by shoos at 4:28 PM on November 13, 2002

Well, "violent" isn't unfair, but probably "violence-promoting" would have summed it up a little better.
posted by transona5 at 4:34 PM on November 13, 2002

Did the election of Bush create an environment that would allow a violent misogynist like Eminem to become famous?
bush was elected?!?!?!?
posted by quonsar at 4:35 PM on November 13, 2002

kablam - but was that the exclusive work of bush? or was it rove's baby?
posted by mcsweetie at 4:39 PM on November 13, 2002

Did the election of Bush create an environment that would allow a violent misogynist like Eminem to become famous? Or, does Eminem's popularity reflect how easily we are blinded by nice wrapping?

This is like a political survey. All possible answers are wrong, support the cause of the poster, and the questions aren't that good to begin with. It's not even relevant, unless you're some bald-headed glasses-wearing hippy who writes music for commercials.

I seem to be on the side of the "good" here in a sick way, as the majority of comments have been negative so far. Let's kick it up another notch and say Eminem's not a misogynist because there's nothing wrong with wanting to kill your ex-wife and put her in your trunk. Seriously, I hate rap, but I have listened to his music and all the criticism just seems to be PC liberal BS. Even saying his audience "can't know the difference" is insulting, and it offends me.

You need to wake up to the fact that Eminem is America. My best friend is Slim Shady. If I bleached my hair and gained a little weight, then stood like two steps below someone on a staircase, I could be Slim Shady, too. Some people even think he's a genius.
posted by son_of_minya at 4:48 PM on November 13, 2002

a "Potempkin Village", Crawford, Texas, was created out of thin air
kablam, where did you get this information?
posted by quonsar at 4:49 PM on November 13, 2002

mcsweetie - Back in the days of the Czars, "the Czar is a good and just man, but he is surrounded by villains." Blaming underlings is a cop out. Leaders delegate, even such tasks as "Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?",
(Henry II's 'plausible deniability' death sentence of Thomas a' Becket.)
posted by kablam at 4:49 PM on November 13, 2002

"a entire town--a "Potempkin Village", Crawford, Texas, was created out of thin air to sponsor a brand new ranch built *just* for his Presidency"

What?
I just looked up the history of Crawford and didn't find anything of the sort. I even found a link to a picture of FDR in Crawford.
Are you saying that Crawford annexed the property that his ranch is on?
posted by 2sheets at 4:51 PM on November 13, 2002

PHONY TO THE CORE: The "Ole Family Ranch" in Crawford is a Set Completed the Same Day the Election was Stolen

(It's about halfway down the page. Lots of interesting details.)
posted by kablam at 5:03 PM on November 13, 2002

I love rap music, and I love what Eminem has done. His last cd is his best stuff by far, and he's maturing so he's not as silly as he once was. As for the bullshit spweing from the link, some people just don't get it, and they never will.
posted by jbou at 5:14 PM on November 13, 2002

Well, "violent" isn'tunfair, but probably "violence-promoting" would have summed it up a little better.
'You mean like those deviously corrupting Stephen King novels?
posted by HTuttle at 5:15 PM on November 13, 2002

Who's Eminem?
posted by adampsyche at 5:18 PM on November 13, 2002

Let's kick it up another notch and say Eminem's not a misogynist because there's nothing wrong with wanting to kill your ex-wife and put her in your trunk.
Gee, and I thought he wanted to write a little diddy and rap about it. Guess there's no difference to some people.
posted by HTuttle at 5:18 PM on November 13, 2002

What's all this talk about emandems - - are they trying to add another color again? I liked the old colors better. And what's all that got to do with Bush and his erection anyway? If that poor man only gets one very four years, I think we should just feel sorry for him....

What? Oh, that's very different. Never mind.
posted by madamjujujive at 5:38 PM on November 13, 2002

Republican bashers keep making one critical mistake: they harp on the mistaken notion that Republican leaders are *dumb*. This is one main reason why they keep getting their teeth kicked in by what they call "dirty tricks."

I'm reminded of a recent article I read, in which the author said (re Bush) something to the effect of (I'm quoting loosely) "Not since Reagan has someone believed to be so stupid outsmarted so many who consider themselves so intelligent."
posted by oissubke at 5:48 PM on November 13, 2002

Did the election of Bush create an environment that would allow a violent misogynist like Eminem to become famous? Or, does Eminem's popularity reflect how easily we are blinded by nice wrapping?

Oh please, what bullshit. Neither Eminem's "violent misogynistic" lyrics nor George W. Bush is responsible for his popularity. Eminem is popular because he's talented. End of fucking story.

You think people buy Eminem records because he hates women and homosexuals? That's a ignorant hypothesis, that has no proof to back it up. Have you ever listened to a whole Eminem album, or do you just watch too much cable news?

Eminem's albums are lyrically deft, well written, and have a complex narrative. I listen to all sorts of music, and while Eminem may not be up there with Bob Dylan or Lou Reed when it comes to writing talent, he's sure as hell up there in the hip hop world. I've written about this before...

And as far as his homophobic and misogynistic lyrics, what's your point? Take a listen to just about any hip hop album and you'll find homophobia and misogyny. That's just hip hop culture, for the most part. But why does Eminem get so much shit for? Well, it's because he's white.

If Eminem was black, do you think anyone would give a shit? He scares white parents (most of whom have probably haven't listen to anything more than sound bites), and he's popular with white kids. That's the primary problem.
posted by SweetJesus at 5:51 PM on November 13, 2002

Let's kick it up another notch and say Eminem's not a misogynist because there's nothing wrong with wanting to kill your ex-wife and put her in your trunk.

HTuttle: Gee, and I thought he wanted to write a little diddy and rap about it. Guess there's no difference to some people.

To some people? I hope I'm just reading into your comment, but it seems like you're trying to group me with the poor unfortunate Shady victims who "can't tell the difference."

My personal Slim Shady talks about killing his ex-wife all the time, and I don't think that makes him a misogynist. "Misogynist" is just a made-up word for "anyone feminists disagree with."
posted by son_of_minya at 6:00 PM on November 13, 2002

Hrm, I like eminem. A lot of good liturature has 'bad people' and 'bad things' in it. Just because Eminem is rapping about it dosn't suddenly make it evil. I would say he's a little mysognistic, though. Listen to "superman" or "drips" on The Eminem Show (his latest CD). I'm not really convinced he's a homophobe.
posted by delmoi at 6:08 PM on November 13, 2002

"Not since Reagan has someone believed to be so stupid outsmarted so many who consider themselves so intelligent."

the assumption, of course, being that getting elected president is a sign of superior intelligence.
posted by mcsweetie at 6:15 PM on November 13, 2002

I think what son_of_minya is saying that there really is nothing wrong with wanting to kill your ex-wife. No irony, no distance. Just like Em himself.
posted by transona5 at 6:53 PM on November 13, 2002

His popularity shouldn't be a mystery. Eminem raps in a white dialect, so alienated white kids can understand his music. Talented? Sure, maybe -- but more talented than the black artists who came before him? Hardly. He's popular for the same reason that other musicians (mostly new metal) who appeal to bored suburban teenage boys are popular. The same thing happened when pansy-ass white musicians started covering old school black rock in the 50s...suddenly it was appealing to maintream youth.

It amazes me that no one's getting to the big question: why is the liberal press (still) drooling all over a rapper whose lyrics are violent and misogynistic? If Eminem talks about killing his wife, he's playing a role; if a black artist says the same, the press that bothers to listen to his music finds it another indicator of the negative content of hip hop. SweetJesus mentioned that Eminem is getting "shit" for his lyrics, but nothing like the blanket condemnation that so many black hip hop artists get for their guns-n-hos themes. Certainly it's because he's white, but it also seems to me that he represents some weird kind of "safe" exoticism -- the equivalent of the "oriental" villain played by some white actor in bad makeup in a 50s movie. Eew. Eew.

If you're going to make the assumption that entertainers are sophisticated enough to create personas that may not necessarily reflect their personal views or deeply-held beliefs, you damn well better assume that what goes for the white kid goes for all. Time for some self awareness from the critical press.
posted by blissbat at 7:01 PM on November 13, 2002

I'm not a big fan of the genre but Eminem has a whole lot of talent.
posted by revbrian at 7:24 PM on November 13, 2002

he's somewhat clever, but he's definitely no MC Paul Barman!
posted by mcsweetie at 7:39 PM on November 13, 2002

Eminem is not playing a role when he raps. His actions outside the recording studio do not back up any claims that his music is ironic. He pulled a gun on someone (see transona5's link above). He picked a fight with Moby on national television. He is unapologetic for the hate he spews. I'm saddened that people, especially kids don't see him for the jerk he is.
posted by neuroshred at 8:47 PM on November 13, 2002

neuroshed, get a grip, Moby is an annoying little man who picks at peoples nerves with his fake niceness, "oh who me? I'm just an innocent little gay guy". The gun he pulled was for protection, can't a man defend himself? He doesn't spew hate, try listening to his cds before you rush to judgement. Anyway music does not influence peoples actions, if that was the case Rage Against The Machine fans would have changed the world by now.
posted by jbou at 9:00 PM on November 13, 2002

Take a listen to just about any hip hop album and you'll find homophobia and misogyny.

Not exactly... Off the top of my head, go check out Jurassic 5, Mos Def, Hieroglyphics, Del, Common, Blackalicious, and lots more. Just because a lot of mainstream hip hop follows the stereotype doesn't mean there isn't plenty of quality hip hop that isn't violent or hateful at all.

Not that I think Eminem isn't talented. He is an amazing lyricist - better than many good black rappers, so I'm convinced he is popular he is good, not because he is average but white.
posted by swank6 at 9:07 PM on November 13, 2002

Thanks, neuroshred. Not that I don't occasionally flip radio stations to see if "Lose Yourself" is being played, but this free pass he's getting has got to stop. I think son_of_minya's argument - that misogyny is not something to be taken seriously - is the most succinct statement of how most of Eminem's defenders feel, once you strip away all the talk about ironic distance and the intentional fallacy.

I do think it's cool how Ad-Rock called him on his lyrics.
posted by transona5 at 9:33 PM on November 13, 2002

he didn't pick an actual fight with Moby, Moby criticized him and then he criticized Moby. When Moby tried to play nice or whatever at the VMAs (pretty hypocritical, btw) Eminem flipped him the finger. Also Moby is not a homosexual, in fact he dated Natalie Portman.

I don't really know all that much about the gun incident. Actually there's an interesting article up on soundbitten about Eminem right now, that discusses this.

---

Anyway, I don't really know if I like him as a person, but his music is certanly good enough to pirate :P

*Looks for 8 Mile on the local campus LAN*
posted by delmoi at 10:06 PM on November 13, 2002

Not exactly... Off the top of my head, go check out Jurassic 5, Mos Def, Hieroglyphics, Del, Common, Blackalicious, and lots more.

Yeah, and for every Talib Kweli there's a Necro, or an Apathy. Notice I said "just about any" hip hop album, not every one. Just because it's underground doesn't mean it's free of homophobia of misogyny.
posted by SweetJesus at 10:13 PM on November 13, 2002

Ad-Rock? are you kidding me? I went to a Beastie Boys show back in the 80's that had a 20 foot dildo on stage, so Ad-Rock can shut his mouth. I thought Moby was gay? oh well, how the hell did he get a date with Portman? Lyle Lovett did marry Julia Roberts so I guess anything is possible.
posted by jbou at 10:50 PM on November 13, 2002

The messages sent out by popular culture most certainly affect the attitudes and mores of young people. To claim otherwise is just willful blindness. Eminem's mysogynistic lyrics may not cause a teenager to go out and murder his ex-girlfriend, but it will suggest to him that speaking of women in degrading and dehumanizing terms is a-okay, if not downright trendy. Same goes for the liberal use of the word "faggot." It may not inspire actual violence toward gays, but it certainly will help to whittle away at any progress that the gay community has made toward eliminating that kind of hate speech.

Whatever his skin color, regardless of whether they are his real attitudes or just his "persona," it's totally irresponsible of him and his record company to be marketing such garbage to kids. There's no way in a million years would I expose my kids to that kind of crap.
posted by boltman at 11:16 PM on November 13, 2002

oh boltman you need to stop, like I said earlier if music had so much power Rage Against the Machine would have spawned a lefty revolution, sorry but sometimes a song is just a song. Let the parents teach their kids how to act, which btw is what Eminem says in his lyrics. Instead of sheltering your kids why not just teach them that it's entertainment, and it isn't how things happen in the real world, and your kids might tell you "we know that dad", don't underestimate how much the kids understand.
posted by jbou at 11:52 PM on November 13, 2002

Actually, rape and spousal murder is exactly how things happen in the real world.
posted by transona5 at 1:15 AM on November 14, 2002

> Time for some self awareness from the critical press.

Fixing to hold your breath until you get this? I wouldn't. As writers (and as critical intelligences) the folks who write the one-inch space fillers for inflight magazines outrank popcult ctitics.
posted by jfuller at 5:48 AM on November 14, 2002

Wow, that's the lamest Richard Goldstein piece I've ever read.

Which is saying a lot. He's always been the most cluelessly eggheaded rock critic in existence. He puts way too much emphasis on the "critic" side of the equation, meaning he went into it as an excuse to complain, rather than actually write about music.

As for Em being a "white" alternative to "authentic" rappers, gimme a break. I can say from personal experience that no other white rapper has had anywhere near as much street credibility with black audiences as Em.

As far as misogynistic or violent lyrics go--what the hell are we the PMRC all of a sudden? The stuff Em raps about isn't pretty, but life ain't always pretty. There's a long tradition of forcing unpleasantness in your face in hip-hop--NWA, Ice Cube all have lyrics as ugly as Em's as do countless punk and metal bands. This stuff is documents. Documents of ugliness perhaps but compelling just the same. It's all part of the human condition.

he's somewhat clever, but he's definitely no MC Paul Barman!

Oh sure. Irony OD'd rhymes and "I suck, but it's on purpose so aren't I clever" beats and sophmoric agitprop cant and humor. That's just what popular music needs.
posted by jonmc at 6:00 AM on November 14, 2002

I'm not a fan of Eminem personally, and I question his rhyme and flow skills that people are so quick to compliment.

I would like to point out my favorite hip hop album this year, Personal Journals by Sage Francis. I actually think he would appeal to a lot of Eminem fans, and I wish more of them could hear this album.
posted by corpse at 6:14 AM on November 14, 2002

if music had so much power Rage Against the Machine would have spawned a lefty revolution

I'm talking about subtle shifts in attitudes, not revolution. Nobody's claiming that Eminem is responsible for a wave of violence against women.

I remember when I was in 6th grade and Guns and Roses came out with their album "Lies", where Axl sang about how comptemptuous he was of black people, gays and immigrants, using plenty of nasty slurs including the n-word. We all loved GNR and thought it was so cool and rebelious that he was saying all this stuff that was so taboo. We became less inhibited about saying things like that too, not because we were hardened bigots, but because we wanted to be rebelious like our hero Axl. It makes me cringe now to think what idiots we were, but it's hard to understand stuff like that when you're 12.

I didn't wind up growing up to be a racist and a homophobe because I had many more positive influences in my life than bad ones like Axl Rose. But what about kids that may not have those sorts of positive reinforcements? What about the fact that even if this kind of cultural influence doesn't lead them to DO bad things, it is likely to make them prone to SAY nasty things which are hurtful to others. What about the fact that it is likely to make kids more tolerant of racists, homophobes, and mysoginysts when we should be teaching them to condemn those kinds of attitudes?
posted by boltman at 6:27 AM on November 14, 2002

Oh sure. Irony OD'd rhymes and "I suck, but it's on purpose so aren't I clever" beats and sophmoric agitprop cant and humor. That's just what popular music needs.

but it kicks ass! and it beats hearing somebody rap about all their car customizations and jewelry.
posted by mcsweetie at 6:35 AM on November 14, 2002

Im not sure about the whole "Bush allows Eminem to be famous" debate as im from the UK and dont know what affect its had, but I agree with Jbou about hip hop, everyone likes different things and they have a right to their own opinion.

I saw the premier of 8mile in LA [Radio1 competion winner!] and it is a "follow your dreams" film rather than "you can be a rapper" film.

Em knows that if he's controversial he will sell more cd's, so fair play. [in my opinion!]
posted by bhell13 at 7:37 AM on November 14, 2002

Well said, Boltman.

What I don't understand is the dodge that because he's talented, that excuses what he says. I'm sure there are a lot of good guitarists in white power heavy metal groups. So is what they say irrelevant as well?

Talented or not, his message is a vital part of his appeal. He talks that way about women and faggots and it makes him rebellious and cool and kids want to cop the vibe.

He of course is free to say what he wants. But the next time he winds up arrested for some sort of crime, if his offense in fact mimics what he's rapped about, my suggestion is that the criminal justice system consider that to be premediation - and prosecute him on the basis of it.
posted by kgasmart at 8:13 AM on November 14, 2002

{tips hat to boltman}

those quick to criticize eminem should go out and volunteer at a battered women's shelter or petition for new legislation, or something -- respond to the behaviour they abhor when they listen to his music.

that said, it makes me sad that i live in a world in which 280+ minutes of rape/wife-beating jokes are funny. domestic violence should never, ever be a source of humour -- it's not "funny" or "genius" in any way, shape or form.
posted by pxe2000 at 9:05 AM on November 14, 2002

"i got shit running through my brain
so intense that i can't explain
all alone in my white boy pain
shake your booty while the band complains..."

"...i'm pissed off but i'm too polite
when people break in the mcdonalds line
mom and dad you made me so uptight
i'm gonna cuss on the mic tonight..."

-Ben Folds "Rockin' the Suburbs"
posted by BobFrapples at 9:51 AM on November 14, 2002

I'm a liberal and a (male) feminist. Homophobic people piss me off. I love Eminem because his music is good and his lyrics are clever. Since when do you have to agree with someone to like their work? T.S. Eliot was an antisemite. Shakespeare wrote about murders and teen suicide. Eminem's stuff is good. Period.

(No, I'm not saying Eminem is in their league.)
posted by callmejay at 1:04 PM on November 14, 2002

and here i thought that eminem was as hugely popular as he was because of his status in the pantheon of white rap, where the word 'white' doesn't refer to race so much as it does to 'crossover potential,' which results in his records being played on more than one non chart-pop radio station in this increasingly segmented radio environment (anyone who's heard a black hip-hop lead vocalist (not a cameo) on a rock-leaning radio station in a major market can feel free to speak up now -- i certainly haven't).

oh yeah, the other white artist who has seen this sort of crossover success as of late?

justin timberlake.

saying 'bush caused eminem' or the reverse is a copout, and it's a very selective reading of popular culture -- casual misogyny's been back in style since at least the mid-to-late 1990s, when the lilith fair 'women in rock' backlash was just beginning, fucking your assistants came back in style (thanks, bill clinton!), maxim was just taking off and a division of warner brothers was buying 3 minute blocks of ad time so it could play the debut single by a then-unknown band named limp bizkit.
posted by maura at 1:13 PM on November 14, 2002

I THINK:

eminem is to rap what larry bird is/was to the NBA. except eminem has dr. dre backing his bid for success. larry bird didn't have wilt chamberlin or bill russell shilling for him but he still got the 'he's-good-but-gets-extra-undue-credit-because-he-is-a-white-man-in-a-black-man's-game' label.

eminem has extraordinary talent but that does not mean he has enough brainpower to subvert his puppetmasters.
posted by donkeysuck at 10:06 AM on November 15, 2002

>"Misogynist" is just a made-up word for "anyone feminists disagree with."

You know, if you go to dictionary.com and type in "misogyny", you can learn that the definition of this (real, not made-up) word is "hatred of women". People who like women "disagree with" misogynists, in the same way that people who like black people "disagree with" the KKK.

I hope this has been educational for you. And now, to test your reading comprehension, here's a little quiz.

There's a saying that goes like this: "You're either a feminist or a misogynist. There is no box marked other."
Which one are you?
posted by twentynine at 11:08 AM on November 15, 2002

(anyone who's heard a black hip-hop lead vocalist (not a cameo) on a rock-leaning radio station in a major market can feel free to speak up now -- i certainly haven't)

I recently heard Jurassic 5 on Live 105.3 FM, an "alternative rock" station in San Francisco. It's true that usually the only rap artists they'll play are Eminem and the Beastie Boys though.
posted by maciej at 11:54 PM on November 15, 2002

"You're either a feminist or a misogynist. There is no box marked other."
Which one are you?

Argh. Explaining what the word "misogynist" means to someone who obviously doesn't know is great, smacking them around with rhetoric isn't, and serves to undo the good works you did in your previous paragraph. People are more likely to end up seeing the light if you don't beat them over the head with this "with us or with the terrorists" stuff. And I don't agree with the above either - I'm female, I'm not a misogynist, but I'm also not a feminist (by my definition thereof, anyway, which is another problem with the word). I'm an egalitarian. And I like some of Eminem's music and the way his lyrics sound (what he says is less important than the way the words sound, IMHO), and I don't think his "message" is really very important in the grand scheme. Anyone who's going to view what he (or anyone else for that matter) has to say without a critical eye needs help with their critical thinking skills.
posted by biscotti at 10:12 AM on November 16, 2002

Anyone who's going to view what he (or anyone else for that matter) has to say without a critical eye needs help with their critical thinking skills.

Yes. They do. Unfortunately, there are millions and millions of Americans that need a lot of help with their critical thinking skills. Rush Limbaugh's entire audience needs help with it's critical thinking skills. Mqny would argue that our president needs help with his critical thinking skills. Certainly, most young adolencent boys that have Eminen as their hero need help with their critical thinking skills. My question is: who is going to help them?
posted by boltman at 10:25 AM on November 16, 2002

who is going to help them?

Good question, in the case of young adolescents, one would hope that their parents would take an interest. I do know that sheltering people from contentious things doesn't help, anyway. Perhaps a reasoned discussion of what's wrong with what Eminem seems to be saying (allowing for the fact that he may, in fact, be playing a role) is a start, rather than dismissive comments about his misogyny from people who've probably never actually listened to his music. Reasonable people are capable of filtering - it's possible to glean items of interest and usefulness even from Rush Limbaugh, dismissing everything he says and his entire audience out of hand isn't conducive to reasoned discussion (not that I've ever listened to him myself, but the world isn't black and white).
posted by biscotti at 12:16 PM on November 16, 2002

I'm not a misogynist, but I'm also not a feminist (by my definition thereof, anyway, which is another problem with the word). I'm an egalitarian.

There is no difference between a feminist and an egalitarian. Dictionary.com defines feminism as:

"Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes."
posted by copper at 9:02 PM on November 16, 2002