The Presidential Prayer Team

August 22, 2003 12:47 PM

Pray for Paul Wolfowitz Many across America and Americans in other countries are heeding the call to pray for our President. In a short time since the September 11 terrorist attacks, well over a million people have registered their promise to pray daily for the President. That number is increasing by tens of thousands of new team members every day. News of The Presidential Prayer Team is spreading rapidly throughout America as people march to the tempo of an almost forgotten tune, "God Bless America." The independent, nonprofit organization behind The Presidential Prayer Team, has a singular purpose: to encourage specific nationwide prayer for the President. The goal is to enlist at least 2.8 million participants, or 1% of the American population, to make this prayer commitment.
posted by Slimemonster (75 comments total)

(Yes yes, I know Paul Wolfowitz isn't our president, I accidently mixed up the post and link titles.)
posted by Slimemonster at 12:49 PM on August 22, 2003

i pray daily for god to smite the shrub. just to cover all the bases you know.
posted by quonsar at 12:50 PM on August 22, 2003

Can we pray that he get colon cancer? Or shin splints? Or maybe dysentery. Dysentery would be funny.
posted by xmutex at 12:52 PM on August 22, 2003

How about Tourette's Syndrome? Oh, right, he might make a little more sense than he makes now.

Seriously, how is it that there appears to be this movement underway to turn American into a theocracy? And why does it appear to be gathering momentum?
posted by kgasmart at 12:54 PM on August 22, 2003

I pray that he continues to eat pretzels while unsupervised
posted by batboy at 12:55 PM on August 22, 2003

How about praying that he comes to his senses?
posted by jonmc at 12:57 PM on August 22, 2003

Seriously, how is it that there appears to be this movement underway to turn American into a theocracy? And why does it appear to be gathering momentum?

America has always been a very religious nation. It's just starting to show more lately.
posted by gottabefunky at 12:58 PM on August 22, 2003

My god, Bush with Tourette's. It boggles the mind. How long could they hide it? (Because you know they'd try.) What kind of excuses would they use? And what would they do?

*lost in fantasyland*
posted by gottabefunky at 12:59 PM on August 22, 2003

For me the running marquee, pancakes the site, send america back to school with prayer. What is with the pop up window for donations too, my taxes are my tithe besides other cause worthy charitable donations. How many churches does this nation want sell?

Is this really an official Presidential site? If it's not don't we have laws today making you a terrorist, impersonating the Prez?
posted by thomcatspike at 1:03 PM on August 22, 2003

There's also a version just for kids.
posted by mathowie at 1:03 PM on August 22, 2003

He doesn't have Tourette's?
posted by xmutex at 1:04 PM on August 22, 2003

He's dyslexic.

Noookyaler indeed.
posted by Outlawyr at 1:09 PM on August 22, 2003

It's just starting to show more lately.
With the war, it helped it too. Pray for the troops.
(directed at this site)
Nothing wrong in praying, but sharing prayers is better than all pray for one's wants. Which this sites is asking, pray for me, what can't pray for us too, just takers, imho. The whole it's all about me, meme in society today is seen here.
posted by thomcatspike at 1:12 PM on August 22, 2003

Seriously, how is it that there appears to be this movement underway to turn American into a theocracy? And why does it appear to be gathering momentum?

They're calmly praying for the success of the President, without hurting anyone. What would you say about this? (scroll down to 3 pics)
posted by 111 at 1:16 PM on August 22, 2003

hmm. nothing wrong with calling for prayer.

but this website has that scent of money....

so where's the money? i mean....

: pop comes the pop-up window :

"The Presidential Prayer Team relies on the support of its members. The “Adopt Our Troops” campaign drained over $500,000 from the operational budget, which must now be replaced. Please help, even with a small gift, by clicking below."

ah! there's the money!
posted by grabbingsand at 1:16 PM on August 22, 2003

Can I go ahead and be the first to point out that praying is useless and silly and does nothing?
posted by xmutex at 1:19 PM on August 22, 2003

What would you say about this?

I would say that regulated organized prayer on behalf of our president is moving us closer towards the lifestyle of the people in the photos you linked to.
posted by jonson at 1:23 PM on August 22, 2003

Oh, that's cute. Just let the little happy people keep on praying for shit.
posted by angry modem at 1:27 PM on August 22, 2003

Dysentery would be funny.

phlebitis! i love that word. i used to crack up when they talked about nixon's phlebitis. that's fun to say too. nixon's phlebitis!
posted by quonsar at 1:29 PM on August 22, 2003

What would you say about this?

I'd say they have more in common with Ashcroft and Moore than they do with me.
posted by trondant at 1:34 PM on August 22, 2003

Running a whois search yields the registrant of the site as John Patton of The Envoy Group down in Tucson, Arizona.

It looks like the folks down there in Arizona see themselves as specialists in Christian® marketing.
posted by jasper411 at 1:36 PM on August 22, 2003

trondant and jonson, sure, just compare their respective actions and it becomes crystal clear that middle class citizens quietly praying for a President working within a democratic regime and terrorist zealots burning flags and exploding bombs are just the same. For a change, I wish you both could find yourselves living near the second group to see how that could perhaps alter your perceptions.
posted by 111 at 1:41 PM on August 22, 2003

Seriously, how is it that there appears to be this movement underway to turn American into a theocracy? And why does it appear to be gathering momentum?

Fear shapes perception. Certain religious forums I peruse are convinced that atheists are taking over. Maybe you're both right.
posted by jsonic at 1:45 PM on August 22, 2003

What would you say about this?

That it's a site run by a bigot and populated by morons?
posted by Armitage Shanks at 1:49 PM on August 22, 2003

I like this attitude:

And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

Can't remember who said it, though.
posted by riviera at 2:01 PM on August 22, 2003

So, do you have to pray for each one of them individually? Or can you get them all in one prayer (i.e. "God bless mommy, and daddy, and brother, and sister, etc"). Does the faith in the prayer dilute if you add people to the list? I'm pretty sure they'd say "pray for the troops in Iraq," with the understanding that all those people over there would get the exact same level of attention by God.

If not, why don't you just pray for all our leaders and not just a particular person. I mean if the influence with God is the same, why concentrate it unless you are playing favorites?

I'd think that would save some Web costs too. Instead of having to write an article about each person to pray for, they could just post a Header 1: "Pray for all our leaders in each of the three branches of our fine government!" and hey, say, lets go pray... you're done!

Have I thought too much about this? I can't tell anymore. Pray for me that I might see the light. Or all of us. Or whatever.
posted by tittergrrl at 2:04 PM on August 22, 2003

So I guess this discussion is great fodder for the Bush-haters and the anti-religious bigots.....Don't you guys EVER get tired of it?
posted by Durwood at 2:05 PM on August 22, 2003

riviera, that sounded sort of kinky.
posted by xmutex at 2:05 PM on August 22, 2003

What would you say about this?

We are near the end of civilization.
posted by moonbiter at 2:05 PM on August 22, 2003

Durwood, I don't think it qualifies as bigotry to reject something on the basis of its not having and intellectual or empirical foundation.

It's what we call in this parts common sense.
posted by xmutex at 2:10 PM on August 22, 2003

my boss is a laotian pipefitter.
posted by quonsar at 2:21 PM on August 22, 2003

are you hitting on me quonsar
posted by xmutex at 2:24 PM on August 22, 2003

I wish you both could find yourselves living near the second group to see how that could perhaps alter your perceptions. - 111


I live close enough, thanks. These American theocracy buffs still give me the wiggins.
posted by nicwolff at 2:30 PM on August 22, 2003

So I guess this discussion is great fodder for the Bush-haters and the anti-religious bigots.....

Listen, man, I don't hate Bush (dislike, maybe) and I'm not an anti-religious bigot.

But I wonder why we as a nation can't be happy to have religious principles inform our policies, but rather insist that explicit, absolutist Christian principles be our policies.

When I see supporters of Judge Roy Moore wearing T-shirts (sorry, no link) saying, among other things, "Islam is a lie," I think, what a great attitude given that we live in a pluralistic society where there are Muslims that we're going to have to live in harmony with, to loudly pronounce that their beliefs are a lie.

It's not religion-bashing to suggest that people who hold this kind of attitude do more harm than good.
posted by kgasmart at 2:40 PM on August 22, 2003

And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

Can't remember who said it, though.

Matthew 6:5-18

Interesting,
I've never read that before.
Guess I need to break out the Good Book a little more often . . .
posted by cinderful at 2:43 PM on August 22, 2003

I'd join in, but my prayer card is all full up of prayers for money, for my hangover to stop, and for Nikki Dial to show up at my house in something black and lacey, with a pizza.
posted by UncleFes at 2:56 PM on August 22, 2003

Oh great Cthulhu, smite the unbelievers...
posted by skallas at 3:04 PM on August 22, 2003

Let's get this straight. If I pray for the President then you think I am doing a bad thing.

That's scary.
posted by konolia at 3:12 PM on August 22, 2003

nicwolff, perhaps moving to an islamic theocracy would broaden your perspective as to what real fanaticism is.
posted by 111 at 3:37 PM on August 22, 2003

Matthew 6:5-18

Funny how no-one ever has that reference on a placard at a sporting event.

Let's get this straight. If I pray for the President then you think I am doing a bad thing.

No: pray for just whoever you want. (Bush certainly needs some divine assistance.) if you create a website exhorting people to form a 'presidential prayer team', the suggestion is that you haven't quite appreciated the attitude to prayer outlined by the swarthy dead-sea-pedestrian with the four biographers.

nicwolff, perhaps moving to an islamic theocracy would broaden your perspective as to what real fanaticism is.

Isn't Alabama a lot closer? Mr Thou Shalt Not Take Mah Mawn-u-ment has issues with gay familes, too, so it'd probably suit you splendidly.
posted by riviera at 3:50 PM on August 22, 2003

111, perhaps espousing theocratic bullshit in a country that isn't an islamic, or christian, theocracy would broaden your perspective as to what real fanaticism is ... or not. Just becuase others do it different doesn't mean emulating them is right, moron. Pray for the pResident all you want. I pray for the people who have to live while under his disdainful, destructive and self-serving rule.
posted by Wulfgar! at 3:52 PM on August 22, 2003

For a change, I wish you both could find yourselves living near the second group to see how that could perhaps alter your perceptions.

And how close to Palestinian suicide bombers do you live?
posted by trondant at 5:03 PM on August 22, 2003

From the FAQ, "Funds are used to support a staff of over 20 people, the national office and computer operation, the American Inspirations radio program, the Presidential Prayer Kids effort and much more. The annual budget for the entire operation is approximately $6 million. An audited financial statement will be available each year"

Wow. Those must be really nice offices or really well paid employees. Or both. The radio 'program' is a series of one minute motivational talks commercials for the site and probably doesn't account for much of the six fucking million dollar a year budget.

Pray all you want, but this is a scam run by marketers.
posted by cedar at 5:54 PM on August 22, 2003

Obviously, the main problem is prayer doesn't work, has not ever been shown to work in any respected scientific study, and modern theologians certainly do not see prayer as "give me a pony now." Modern interpretations are more about communion with one's perceived deity of choice, meditation, etc.

I would think those who don't like Bush could only benefit by having his supporters sitting around and doing nothing when they could be doing something more effective like their little GOP teamleader astroturfing nonsese.

Crazy religious Bush supporters: please go for the hunger strike next or perhaps the drinking of the special kool-aid.

Telling his subjects that it was a "revolutionary death," he had a large quantity of fruit punch laced with cyanide prepared. After making all 276 children at Jonestown drink the punch, all the adults proceeded. In the end, after Jones apparently killed himself with a gunshot to the head, 914 people had died.

What gets me is that these "responsible" religious parents aren't above dragging their kids into their irrantional messes.
posted by skallas at 6:02 PM on August 22, 2003

Playboy just ran a scary article on the Presidential Prayer Team, written by a heathen who infiltrated the group by pretending to be a minister. His story about attending a conference in which churches were taught how to circumvent the "no proselytizing" rules of Bush's Charitable Contribution Act, and how to downplay their violations of the EOE laws while receiving federal money, turned my stomach. Playboy might have the article online somewhere, but since it's obviously NSFW I'll let y'all look yourselves.
posted by pineapple at 6:04 PM on August 22, 2003

Oh great... this country gets by on a prayer. That's f*cking scary.
posted by clevershark at 6:34 PM on August 22, 2003

>What gets me is that these "responsible" religious parents aren't above dragging their kids into their irrantional messes.

Not to mention, whats the difference between this and little Muslim kids praying for Saddam? Why pray to Allah? Why, because its the true religion! Why pray to Jesus? Because its the true religion. Of course no religion can prove any of this.

Why pray for Saddam? Why, because he's our leader!

I also *love* how they're pro-school prayer. I'm sure if one of these Xtian families moved into a Muslim neighborhood and their kids were forced to get on their knees and pray towards Mecca, the lawsuits would just fly.

This is just a pathetic attempt at maintaining and reinforcing the Xtian evangelist status quo.
posted by skallas at 6:49 PM on August 22, 2003

Let's get this straight. If I pray for the President then you think I am doing a bad thing.
posted by nicwolff at 7:38 PM on August 22, 2003

Let's get this straight. If I pray for the President then you think I am doing a bad thing. -- konolia

No, if you pray for the President I think you're wasting your time. And if you pray for this President I think it's time well-wasted.

But if you strive to organize millions of people to pray with you that he'll use his office to promote the creed you share, then you are in your intentions a traitor to this country's principles. (Fortunately, you're still wasting your time.)

At least, when UncleFes is praying for bush, he's got the right idea.
posted by nicwolff at 7:38 PM on August 22, 2003

I pray that God's Kingdom come, and that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. God can and does promote Himself. God doesn't need me to "promote a creed" and I am not a salesman shilling get-out-of-hell-free cards.

When I pray for the President I pray that the Lord gives him strength to make the right decisions-I don't dictate to the Lord what those decisions would be. I pray that Bush would get wise counsel from his advisors. I do not deign to tell God Almighty in His heaven just what that counsel should consist of. God is God and I am not. He is not a cosmic bell boy that has to leap at my every whim, stepping and fetching on command.

But I can tell you as a statement of bald fact that He does answer prayer. But even if I gave you specifics (and I could give you many) you wouldn't believe it. That's just a fact.

In general on this thread, those that say that prayer is wasted breath protest too much. If you all really believed that you wouldn't waste a keystroke on this thread to begin with.

So what is it you are afraid God would do to answer prayer for the President? Are you afraid God really will do His will and you won't like it?
posted by konolia at 10:01 PM on August 22, 2003

But I can tell you as a statement of bald fact that He does answer prayer. But even if I gave you specifics (and I could give you many) you wouldn't believe it. That's just a fact.

Translated: I can't prove it in the objective sense but take my word on it.

In general on this thread, those that say that prayer is wasted breath protest too much. If you all really believed that you wouldn't waste a keystroke on this thread to begin with.

Translated: Come on, everyone believes in god right? right? *crickets*

Yes we do waste the keystrokes when we see attempts at turning a secular republic into a theocracy. See their support of school prayer and forcing their kids into praying for their world leader.
posted by skallas at 10:56 PM on August 22, 2003

Why should i be happy that the most powerful nation ever is turning into a theocracy? Because you're a believer?

Iraq was a warm up for an even bigger holy war - The US is on a crusade after all....
posted by lerrup at 11:32 PM on August 22, 2003

I pray that God's Kingdom come, and that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Why? In your world view, isn't that already a forgone conclusion?

If your prayer gives you strength, or makes your life richer or brings you closer to the thing you identify in your mind as a source of benevolence or direction or fulfillment or whatever, then great. I wouldn't want to get in the way of that. Life is hard enough without me challenging what works for you, but I really don't understand given what you've said why you would ask for specific things like give the president good council. If I were to pray to your god for the opposite thing, does that undermine the prayers that you've prayed, or is your god effectively indifferent to the varying opinions of the creatures that populate this planet? If as I suspect it is indifferent, then what's the point of asking for specific things rather than just trying to establish some sort of generic, non-specific communion?

Even if you wouldn't dream of telling your god what that council should be, even asking that it be given seems an act of hubris as though your god needs that advice from you. And the very act seems to be contradicted by your later statement:

God is God and I am not. He is not a cosmic bell boy that has to leap at my every whim, stepping and fetching on command.

I mean no disrespect, but what you say and what you claim to do don't seem to be internally consistent with each other, and I am genuinely interested in how you reconcile those things.
posted by willnot at 12:40 AM on August 23, 2003

Are you afraid God really will do His will and you won't like it? - konolia

No, I'm afraid credulous and deluded people will do what they believe to be his will - and I really won't like it.

Look, you're missing the point: you, konolia, can pray for anything you like without offending me. But when these people make a public effort to marshall your coreligionists by making a religious figure out of the President of the United States, they are doing a bad thing.

His will be done on earth as it is in heaven

Here's something I never got: this prayer that obedience to God be as perfect here as it is above. Wasn't it in heaven that Lucifer and his cohort rebelled? So God's will doesn't have the power of physical law in heaven either - it's no better than any terrestrial law, imposed on sometimes unwilling subjects by main force.

Or - yikes - is that what you're praying for? That his will be done here as it is in heaven - under threat of banishment and torture? Welcome to the United States of Sharia!
posted by nicwolff at 12:51 AM on August 23, 2003

Karma will take care of the beloved President.




He is so fucked.
posted by Blue Stone at 5:06 AM on August 23, 2003

Translated: I can't prove it in the objective sense but take my word on it

No-email me and I will happily share.

what's the point of asking for specific things rather than just trying to establish some sort of generic, non-specific communion?

The Bible clearly states it is His will we pray for the authorities (Bible talk for politicians and leaders.) In general when we pray for specific things we first need to ascertain whether we are praying in His will.

A lot of what I posted came directly from the "Lord's Prayer"-the prayer Jesus quoted when his disciples asked him to teach them to pray.

Here's something I never got: this prayer that obedience to God be as perfect here as it is above.

The prayer said "God's will be done," NOT "obedience to God be perfect." The latter statement indeed is a subset of the former but there's a difference.

God's will is that He and man(woman)kind walk together in fellowship in a place of perfect love, perfect peace, perfect harmony and perfect beauty. Oh yeah, I can see how scary that must seem.


Yes, Lucifer did fall. Not even angels were created automatons.

posted by konolia at 5:28 AM on August 23, 2003

Hahahahahahahaha!

God is Santa Claus for adults.
posted by pooligan at 6:15 AM on August 23, 2003

God's will is that He and man(woman)kind walk together in fellowship in a place of perfect love, perfect peace, perfect harmony and perfect beauty. Oh yeah, I can see how scary that must seem.

Hey, that's great. Just do me a favor and next time you make your daily prayer to God or whatever ask Him to tell all the people doing His will in whatever name for Him they choose to stop blowing up children, detonating schoolbuses, dropping liquid fire from the air on top of villages, launching missiles, blowing up health clinics, burning down buildings attended by people who call God a different name than they do, dehumanizing people for who they want to love, and completely and utterly subjugating and torturing people for not having penises. Those guys seem to be doing a bang-up job of ignoring the fuck out of His idea to walk together in peace and harmony. Oh, and if there's time, could he stop all those servants of His from fucking little boys, too. That'd be swell. I understand their "obedience to God isn't perfect" and all, but hey, come on.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 6:36 AM on August 23, 2003

XQUZYPHYR, a lot will be sorted out on Judgement day. There will be ultimate justice for all those innocent victims, for those who make women's life a daily hell, etc.

To thump the Bible again, the reason God is waiting to put the hammer down is He is giving people time to repent. It gives him no pleasure to see people perish in their sins. But the time is soon approaching when He will indeed be kicking major butt. Then the small and great truly will be calling to the mountains and rocks to "fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the Throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" (Rev.6:15-16)

Oh yes, (one more thump) the Bible does state clearly that there are those who do the devil's work who think they are doing God's.

I wish I had the dinero to get a server to start up biblefilter-only problem being I would probably be stuck with a bunch of religious cranks. I actually would rather cross swords with all yall here. *sigh*

Re the last couple of statements you made-if I were Catholic I would be raising holy hell on that topic. As it is I share your disgust.
posted by konolia at 6:52 AM on August 23, 2003

konolia, if God's will is that He and man(woman)kind walk together in fellowship in a place of perfect love, perfect peace, perfect harmony and perfect beauty... how does it help him or us achieve that goal if he's going to ...be kicking major butt. Then the small and great truly will be calling to the mountains and rocks to "fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the Throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

or is that place of perfect love, perfect peace, etc supposed to be heaven? also, i'm glad you're here crossing swords with us, but i think most of us see it as discussion and debate, and not in such violent terms
posted by amberglow at 7:27 AM on August 23, 2003

konolia, that seems like a gratuitous cop-out. Every horrible thing done in this world, as I noted, most of it by those who claim to be the most in touch with their personal god, will be rectified because on Judgement Day all the bad people will finally be punished? So why, then, are there any laws at all? Why sentence a person to death when God will ultimately take care of it for us? Why is homosexuality and abortion sinful when obviously come Judgement Day everything will be taken care of? All that has to be done now to make everything better, but it's okay that we're allied with the perpetrators of 9/11 because God will take care of them later?

You can't have it both ways, and even so it's a horrible sales pitch. Once again the religious answer is based on the promise that something that makes everything better will happen.... sometime. Hell, even Bush gave a time frame for a tax cut.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 7:55 AM on August 23, 2003

Amberglow, I was thinking in terms of fencing, not of cutting my opponents into human sushi ;-)

X, if there weren't laws established for the here and now this really would be hell on earth rather quickly. Not that all laws are created equal, of course.

As to the death penalty, I don't necessarily disagree with you.

It's the US allied with the Saudis, not the Christians.

Oh, and there are no taxes in heaven. And no H & R Block in hell.
posted by konolia at 8:49 AM on August 23, 2003

If I pray for the President then you think I am doing a bad thing.

I wouldn't say that prayer itself is a bad thing; if nothing else, it's a form of quiet reflection in a world where our time is less ours.

What I find scary and irritating is that it is assumed we need to show respect for these public demonstrations of this tired puerile mythology. Religion wouldn't be half as offensive if its practitioners weren't so showy about it.
posted by troybob at 11:11 AM on August 23, 2003

>No-email me and I will happily share.

Again, you're failing to understand what objective and scientific proof is. Everyone has some ancedote but when put under the objective eye it usually turns out to be ordinary coincidence, selective memory, or outright delusions.

Rael has a great story to tell. Why aren't you a Raelian too?

>The Bible clearly states it is His will we pray for the authorities

That's your spin and your interpretation. Many advocate Jebus and Xtianity have nothing to do with politics and Jebus itself more or less advocates seperation of church and state with his sarcastic comment in the NT here.

"Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's."

Of course feel free to disagree, in the end all we're doing is discussing the english translation of words that may or may not have been based on real events and definitely went through many revisions and rewrites. Even after all that we're re-interpreting everything to fit whatever Xtians think is the "truth" which of course be different 100 yrs from now, that is if Xtianity even exists then.
posted by skallas at 3:18 PM on August 23, 2003

Hey Konolia, looks like one of your own received a miracle today. Of course the rational people will see this as just another case of inmate on inmate violence, but to many religious types this was "divine execution."

Are you starting to grok how big interpreting events are and if you're at that point you're too fargone to even be considered rational?
posted by skallas at 3:39 PM on August 23, 2003

Skallas, you're freakin' brutal.
posted by crasspastor at 4:57 PM on August 23, 2003

Again, you're failing to understand what objective and scientific proof is. Everyone has some ancedote but when put under the objective eye it usually turns out to be ordinary coincidence, selective memory, or outright delusions.

Thanks for proving my point before I even share some of the blatant answers to prayer I have gotten since 1980.

Maybe when God provides for me again and again and again in such blatant ways with such perfect timing, I get a wee bit blase about it.

Skallas, do you realise you are twisting Bible teachings as well as or better than a professional clown does balloon animals? Don't worry, tho, I'm not offended-I seriously don't expect you to grok any of this.

As to the "priest" getting sent into eternity, it's a well-known fact that inmates hold a special disgust for child molesters. I'm not surprised, and I doubt you are either.
posted by konolia at 4:58 PM on August 23, 2003

>Maybe when God provides for me again and again and again in such blatant ways with such perfect timing, I get a wee bit blase about it.

Again, your perceptions and experiences are hardly proof of anything in formal definition of proof. Your "provides for me" statement betrays how well Freud pegged the religious. Also, you have yet to answer the question why one religioun over another. Anyway, spoken like a true zealot, your cognitive dissonence must be interesting to say the least.

>Skallas, do you realise you are twisting Bible teachings

Yet if I was wearing a collar or in seminary school it would be called 'insightful interpretation.'
posted by skallas at 11:07 PM on August 23, 2003

Skallas, depending on what seminary you were at I might agree with you. ;-)


I can't believe you would rely on Freud's statements on anything. How out-of-date. I'm sorry if the fact God has been my provision offends you. It isn't like I asked him for a Mercedes or something. If I need transportation and go to Him about it He decides how to fix the problem. I just know that if we pray according to His will He hears us.

Skallas, if someone were raised from the dead right in front of you you would still doubt. i'm not being facetious, that's just the way human nature is. I'll never convince you that my God is alive. But that doesn't change the fact that He is.

God won't jump through your hoops, Skallas. If you actually sought Him you would find Him, but He doesn't have to prove Himself to you or anyone else.
posted by konolia at 3:17 AM on August 24, 2003

A bible-thumper calling Freud out of date! Rich!
posted by troybob at 9:27 AM on August 24, 2003

Hey, you ought to read up on folks like Freud and Jung. Mindboggling to me at least that anyone takes what they have to say seriously these days. If you want good psychology/psychiatry there are more modern places to find it.

I don't actually thump my bible, by the way. Don't wanna hurt my knuckles.

You know, at the very least you might try reading Proverbs. Really good practical advice in there. Like don't cosign a loan.
posted by konolia at 10:37 AM on August 24, 2003

>But that doesn't change the fact that He is.

Funny statement coming from someone who just accused me of being hard to convince. Regardless, I'm glad you've shown your irrational fundie side and your last few posts have given me more than a few laughs.
posted by skallas at 2:37 PM on August 24, 2003

Technically I'm not a fundie. I'm a charismatic.

Skallas, I know perfectly well I'm not going to convince you, but I still enjoy the discussion. I could wish you would at least give the concept of God some consideration. You of course have the right to choose otherwise, a choice I know you will regret one day, but nevertheless your privilege.

If you ever do start an interest in things spiritual, send me an email.
posted by konolia at 6:46 PM on August 24, 2003

Oh, I'll pRay for the pResident, that the undead rise from a location near the Whitehouse on the day of an important meeting, say.

What?

Is that so bad? Braiiiins?

*none in 'da House, scampers back into grave*

[*but, starts praying feverishly for a winning lotto ticket*]

If you're going to be spending your money on an American Prayer.....you could do worse.

Honestly, I'm shocked noone has yet brought up Jim. No, not Jim & Tammy Faye....

"When I was back there in seminary school, there was
a person there who put forth the proposition
that you can petition the Lord with prayer...
Petition the Lord with prayer...
Petition the Lord with prayer...
Petition the Lord with prayer...
You cannot petition the Lord with prayer!"

I think Jim Morrison has a point there.

My point being, why does pRaying go hand in hand with donations of money too, in this instance?

It's crass. Plain and simple.
posted by alicesshoe at 9:59 PM on August 24, 2003

Oh, I'll pRay for the pResident, that the undead rise from a location near the Whitehouse on the day of an important meeting, say.

Lots of undead rise every day. I myself got out of bed this morning.
posted by konolia at 6:18 AM on August 25, 2003