the loneliness of the long distance runner
October 17, 2003 1:41 PM   Subscribe

Hemmingway did it. Ian Curtis too. But, she did it on a cold London day with her children in the other room. Since her departure in 1963 songs [audio] have been written about her, biographies (even fictional) published with the requisite controversy, (some) private journals revealed, countless articles written, theories posed, medical conditions named in her honor, and now a "mainstream" film, with everyone's favourite pseudo-english actress. What is it about this tortured and talented woman that people find so fascinating?
posted by shoepal (58 comments total)
 
Damn! I mean Hemingway. D'oh!
posted by shoepal at 1:43 PM on October 17, 2003


It's a mystery to me. I thought The Bell Jar was awful. And I tend to discredit, or at least distrust, the thought and work of anyone who winds up commiting suicide.

She said she wanted to be God when she was a child. She took her own life after becoming a mother. Whatever was going on with her is for psychiatric clinicians to make sense of, IMO, not feminists, literary critics, folks singers, et al.

[hi k!]
posted by scarabic at 1:57 PM on October 17, 2003


What is it about this tortured and talented woman that people find so fascinating?

Crazy = Hot.
posted by solistrato at 2:02 PM on October 17, 2003


"An interesting poetess whose tragic suicide was misinterpreted as romantic by the college-girl mentality."

-Alvy Singer in Annie Hall
posted by Ty Webb at 2:20 PM on October 17, 2003


Great post, Shoepal.

I enjoyed the Bell Jar, although I don't consider it a particularly impressive book. I wonder if part of Plath's allure is the possibility she would have been more happy (or at least less suicidal) if she'd grown up on the other side of the sexual revolution -- that is, if she hadn't wound up married with children, she might have found a happier life.

Also, Crazy = Hot.
posted by subgenius at 2:21 PM on October 17, 2003


And I tend to discredit, or at least distrust, the thought and work of anyone who winds up commiting suicide.

Uh, any reason why or do you just think that's a clever position?
posted by xmutex at 2:23 PM on October 17, 2003 [1 favorite]


The impulse to self-destruct -- and then to document it all along the way through journals and poetry -- is something that probably appeals to lots of high school girls. (For me, her poetry is one of the only high school fascinations that survived the conflagration of college lit crit.)

I was surprised when Hughes released Birthday Letters before his death. He's allowed his own voice on the facts of their marriage, of course. But I'd always found his silence and privacy on Plath very dignified. And then there he was actually rewriting some of her poems, like "Sheep in Fog," from his own pov. First he burns the journals, and then he rewrites her narrative. Nice.
posted by onlyconnect at 2:28 PM on October 17, 2003


I saw a "Edge" a few months ago. It's a one-woman play about Plath that was possibly the most excruciating 2 hours of my life. Mostly consisting of the performer screaming and throwing herself around the stage, it was a study in how not to make a character sympathetic. Within 20 minutes I just wanted her to get it over with and stick her goddamn head in the goddamn oven so that we could all go home.

(Also, yes, Crazy == Hot)
posted by bshort at 2:32 PM on October 17, 2003


the possibility she would have been more happy (or at least less suicidal) if she'd grown up on the other side of the sexual revolution

Kate Chopin introduced that question with Edna Pontellier, who commits suicide at the end of The Awakening. If only it could have stopped there. But femininsts have gotten a lot more mileage out of a real suicide they can point to as a martyr of the early sexual revolution.

But I think to hold her up as a martyr is to use her, to an extent. Her case is much different than Kurt Cobain's, for my money. The mystique of gloomy genius, the roller-coaster through success to suicide, the incurable depression. Almost anyone with children feels pressure, the weight of commitment, fatigue, but Plath clearly had serious psychiatric problems of her own.

In any case, I'm glad times have changed for the better, and I think Plath's writing provides an outlet for people who are extremely depressed themselves. Similarly with the blues, you'd think that slow, sad music would only make a depressed person worse, but it can be quite cathartic to hear someone else articulate the pain you're feeling. The clinically depressed and the sexually repressed both find a mouthpiece in Plath, whatever her personal fate.

xmutex - I think a grain of salt is called for because: a) whatever principles suicides held dear in life obviously led them to a bad place b) what can you trust to a person who can't even be relied on to self-preserve? c) I'm very very clever and I say so.
posted by scarabic at 2:42 PM on October 17, 2003


meant to say:

"Her case is *not* much different..."
posted by scarabic at 2:43 PM on October 17, 2003


Ty Webb, I recently watched Annie Hall and I think maybe between that and the posters for the new movie, subconsciously Sylvia's been on my mind a lot lately. There is something fascinating in the artist + suicide equation and the romanticism of it all. And yeah, in many ways crazy=hot holds true (though, to be fair, she was also rather brilliant). I am a hopeless sucker for the psychotic ones.
-----------------
[hey andy!]
posted by shoepal at 2:48 PM on October 17, 2003


I have not read The Bell Jar, but her poems are excellent. Crazy = hot maybe, but that doesn't mean that her poetry isn't amazing and a good reason for her to be part of the canon. If Sylvia Plath sometimes is treated as Ian Curtis for girls (which is a silly formulation anyway) then I hope it's not at the expense of her poetry.

Scarabic, I understand what you're saying, but I think you're being simplistic. People commit suicide for all sorts of reasons -- very often because they are ill, and not because of their "principles." It is not always a decision which is within their control (whatever that would mean). What about poets like Paul Celan? -- easily one of the greatest of the 20th century? His poetry is not depressive, his "principles" are not negative ones, and he still killed himself. I don't see why that should make you "doubt" his art.
posted by josh at 2:59 PM on October 17, 2003 [1 favorite]


Another tragic suicide, Mark Rothko
posted by shoepal at 3:03 PM on October 17, 2003


josh - I'm not saying that suicide automatically destroys good work, but it does make me think twice. It depends on the work in question, of course, but I would think twice about the music/poetry/etc of someone I learned was a horrible racist, as well. That doesn't mean I'd automatically hate all their work. To some extent you have to judge it for what it is. But it's hard not to see someone's work in a new light once they kill themselves, come out as gay, admit they're a drug addict, join the priesthood, run for governor, anything momentous that gives you more information about the person, the source, the POV the work came from.
posted by scarabic at 3:14 PM on October 17, 2003


Scarabic, -- I agree that one is obviously going to rethink their opinions and ideas about literature when new information surfaces. But whereas being a racist, say, is a failure of principles, committing suicide isn't really (unless you're Catholic) -- or at least, it almost certainly wasn't in Plath's case.

All I'm saying is, the poetry's great, -- and one of the crummy things about this movie (though I'm probably going to see it) is that it's going to naturally suggest that we judge the poetry in terms of the life of Sylvia Plath. Whereas I would rather we judge the life in terms of the poetry.
posted by josh at 3:27 PM on October 17, 2003


I definitely consider suicide a failure of principles. But I realize that's a very personal matter of opinion. I can definitely appreciate yours.

And you're right, some of the poetry is very good. We're actually rehashing some very basic schools-of-lit-crit stuff here, regarding whether or not to account for the author's life when considering the work. Not that I can recall the names of these schools... I mean, I only have a 4-year degree in this crap :D
posted by scarabic at 3:36 PM on October 17, 2003


the movie's surprisingly good.
posted by muckster at 3:46 PM on October 17, 2003


josh, I agree with you about her poetry!

I guess it didn't help that she had a penchant for tyrannical men, perhaps modeled after her Daddy (a powerful work, imo). She's not the only mad female artist to have been eclipsed by the career of a dominant male lover/mentor - Camille Claudel and Zelda Fitzgerald come to mind. I should read that Hughes book - he sounds pretty domineering. His second wife died the same way so he obviously ascribed to the crazy=hot philosophy.

It also certainly didn't help SP or any of the mad women of that era that medical and psychiatric providers at the time were very paternalistic in treating women....some have documented this phenomena, and dub it psychiatric imperialism.

What part of her illness may have been rooted in women's issues is perhaps tangential to the larger issue of mental illness, however. Lots of creative types seem to have suffered from bipolar or depressive disorders, often ending in suicide - Virginia Wolf wading into the river, her pockets laden with stones comes to mind; or poor troubled Vincent Van Gogh. Today, medication can help with many of these disorders and we'll have to see whether the world's output of genius and artistic works suffers for the remedy. To discount the work of self-destructive artists takes out a pretty good chunk out of the creative world though. And many artists who aren't actively jumping in rivers or shooting themselves are simply opting for a slightly more circuitous route to the grave anyway.
posted by madamjujujive at 4:00 PM on October 17, 2003


Kate Chopin introduced that question with Edna Pontellier, who commits suicide at the end of The Awakening. If only it could have stopped there.

I used to drive my profs nuts by claiming that Edna didn't really kill herself, she just sort of passed out, washed up on shore a few miles away or was rescued by someone, pretended to have amnesia, and started her life over. I mean, there's no actual body at the end, so it could happen that way, right? Right? No? Okay. Spoilsports.

That said, I don't care for Plath. I could never put my finger on what it is about her writing that bothers me, but it has something to do with the rhythms she seems to favor.
posted by eilatan at 4:05 PM on October 17, 2003


scarabic - Lew Welch, John Barryman, Hart Crane ... the list of suicidal poets is depressingly long. How to compare that against a Rimbaud, who simply walked away from poetry to become an African trader and shortly die? Should that change our view of his poetry?

In some sense, it does - sometimes, in poets, one can sense an anger with words that can be expressive of an anger with oneself. Suicide is a failure, yes, but of principles? The sane have principles, but the depressed often don't. In any case, except in rare cases, the poems that survive were not written at the time of suicide; they were written in a certain frame of mind and are a snapshot of that mind at that time, before that mind decided that life could not be lived anymore. We can talk about the events of a poet's life and the eventual suicide of some, but the words stay on the paper, unknowing and often uninformative of the ending. It's our minds that make the connections, not the poems themselves and we should be careful of that fact.
posted by pyramid termite at 4:09 PM on October 17, 2003


I feel the same way about Sylvia Plath as I do about Phish and Jesus: I'd tolerate them a lot more if not for their fans.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who gets suckered in by crazy = hot.
posted by solistrato at 4:21 PM on October 17, 2003 [1 favorite]


The same exquisite sensitivity that enables great poetry is also the thing that makes living life excruciatingly painful at times. One can at times feel as if the sorrow of the whole world is contained in one's breast...yet again there are other times when a gust of joy takes you up and you feel like you are dancing on the clouds. Add to that the gift of communicating that range, and voila, you have a poet-or an author-or a composer-or an artist.

The problem is, when you are like that, life is too big, and you can choke on it.
posted by konolia at 5:02 PM on October 17, 2003


Some people relate to extremes of self-obsession? Imagine that.

Crazy = hot only for those crazy themselves.
posted by rushmc at 5:08 PM on October 17, 2003


Crazy = hot only for those crazy themselves

An accurate statement-unless Crazy + built like a brick house. Ugly crazy people better know how to write. ;-)
posted by konolia at 5:22 PM on October 17, 2003 [1 favorite]


it's hard not to see someone's work in a new light once they kill themselves, come out as gay, admit they're a drug addict, join the priesthood, run for governor, anything momentous that gives you more information about the person, the source, the POV the work came from.

scarabic, i gotta disagree completely. the work is the work. what does it matter where it comes from? for that matter, what does it even matter what the author's intent was? once it's out there, it's no longer theirs. it's ours. i like some of Roald Dahl's stuff a lot, but he seems like a total asshole.

like you said, basic litcrit stuff. i guess i'm just on the exact opposite side.
posted by mrgrimm at 5:53 PM on October 17, 2003


Why is Bukowski so fascinating? What about Burroughs or Mailer? I think we've all known college boys who idolize them.

When the film "Pollock" came out, I don't remember a lot of debate over whether he was overrated because of interest in his life, but "Frida" sparked quite a bit of skepticism. And now we're seeing the same thing with Plath.
posted by transona5 at 6:58 PM on October 17, 2003 [1 favorite]


One of my favorite songs, by Fisher is Mad Girl's Love Song (mp3) based on the poem of the same name.

Good stuff.
posted by Lafe at 7:08 PM on October 17, 2003


Never sleep with anyone hotter than yourself
posted by BentPenguin at 7:26 PM on October 17, 2003


Why is Bukowski so fascinating? What about Burroughs or Mailer? I think we've all known college boys who idolize them.

And like Plath, they all worked a single groove very deeply.

When the film "Pollock" came out, I don't remember a lot of debate over whether he was overrated because of interest in his life, but "Frida" sparked quite a bit of skepticism. And now we're seeing the same thing with Plath.

Oh, bullshit. Pollock and his work have always been roundly mocked, mostly because everyone looks at a Pollock and says, "Jesus, I could do that." And both Pollock and Kahlo are safe and sound in MoMA, thank you very much. But you are right in the sense that no one looks at Pollock's life for inspiration, because Kahlo and Plath are held in esteem precisely because their lives were colorful and "interesting." If that's the fault of anyone, it's the fault of their fans. "Oh, my God, Sylvia Plath totally felt depressed - just like me!!!"

Besides, biopics all suck. All of them, even Malcolm X, which is the best of the bunch.
posted by solistrato at 8:28 PM on October 17, 2003


No. The best of the bunch, by far.
posted by liam at 8:58 PM on October 17, 2003


How to compare that against a Rimbaud

!!! - I'm not sure how to answer, but he also came to my mind earlier as I was thinking about this. Your post gave me a chill.
posted by scarabic at 12:58 AM on October 18, 2003


I guess the more I think about it, the more I believe that Rimbaud's actions amplify his poetry. Can you imagine a future more fitting for the author of his work?

If he'd simply grown up, moved to the suburbs, married, worked, found an agent, published his poems, enjoyed success, and written a memoir before dying on a deathbed surrounded by grandchildren, wouldn't the rich, hallucinatory darkness in his work ring more hollow - the tepid gloom of a hormonal youth?

I had my moments when I was 19. But I got over it.

Instead, Rimbaud abandoned his identity and work, and ran off to smuggle arms across the unknown without a face, and became it.

I mean, fuck that, but... respect
posted by scarabic at 1:12 AM on October 18, 2003


"Sylvia Plath" brand oven cleaner
posted by alumshubby at 7:18 AM on October 18, 2003 [1 favorite]


What is it about this tortured and talented woman that people find so fascinating?

Crazy = Hot.


For females only.
posted by jonmc at 7:42 AM on October 18, 2003


For females only.

call it the Ophelia Effect.
posted by oog at 9:17 AM on October 18, 2003


For shame, alumshubby
posted by shoepal at 9:31 AM on October 18, 2003


Only sleep with people hotter than yourself (seems to have worked for me!)
posted by daveg at 11:40 AM on October 18, 2003


Well, I my repeat myself, but at least I'm memorable.

...and then there's "Joan of Arc" brand marshmallows...
posted by alumshubby at 12:11 PM on October 18, 2003


a popular opinion is that she did not intend to kill herself at all, but to be caught in the act. some mistiming prevented that, but it may have been more of a cry for help than a death wish.
posted by centrs at 1:49 PM on October 18, 2003


I definitely consider suicide a failure of principles. But I realize that's a very personal matter of opinion. I can definitely appreciate yours.

Well, having been on the brink a few times, I can say with some assurance that is a matter of symptomology rather than a failure of principles. Your brain isn't functioning correctly - you are experiencing a level of psychic pain that is loud, invasive, and unrelenting and it drowns out almost all rational thought.

Take the old emergency broadcast system sound, turn it up to 125db, and play it non-stop for weeks at a time; at the same time, drink cup after cup of really strong coffee without eating and look at picture after picture of war atrocities - that's the best way I can describe it. Principles often can't triumph under such circumstances.
posted by echolalia67 at 4:08 PM on October 18, 2003 [1 favorite]


echolalia67 is right.

Unless you have been there it is almost impossible to imagine.
posted by konolia at 4:22 PM on October 18, 2003


Your brain isn't functioning correctly - you are experiencing a level of psychic pain that is loud, invasive, and unrelenting and it drowns out almost all rational thought.

Your first contention does not necessarily follow from your second.
posted by rushmc at 4:23 PM on October 18, 2003


Well, would you consider having a hard time making rational decisions, feeling overwhelming anxiety and despair 24/7, and not being able to get a moments reprieve the sign of a properly functioning brain?
posted by echolalia67 at 4:30 PM on October 18, 2003


Show me the standard against which you are measuring.
posted by rushmc at 7:07 PM on October 18, 2003


Well, I can't give you an empirical standard; it's different for everyone. I can give you what I believe is a reasonable standard.

Person is generally able to make logical decisions and follow through on tasks and activities of daily living (showering, dressing, going to work, shopping for food, paying bills).

This is opposed to it taking 3 hours to make breakfast because your head feels so murky that you can't follow through a part of your routine that you normally don't even have to think about. Or, feeling such an overwhelming sense of dread that the thought of getting out of bed and taking a shower terrifies you.

Person experiences emotions that are proportional and related to on-going events in their lives. That includes feelings of sadness, frustration, anxiety, grief, etc.

This is opposed to feeling weeks of overwhelming self-loathing and hopelessness, when you know, objectively speaking, that nothing going in your life is so bad that you should feel this way. Or, feeling such intense despair that thoughts of death and suicide gives you a little relief from the non-stop pain.

Person is able to to maintain functional relationships with family, co-workers, and friends.

This is opposed to withdrawing from those closest to you and feel that you're doing them a favor because you're such a loathsome, pathetic, loser. Feeling that you would be doing them a favor by killing yourself so they didn't have to be burdened by you anymore.

I could go on and on, but I'm getting a bad headache. I will say that it's normal to have an hour, or a day, even a week feeling as bad as I've described. When it goes on for months and months without relief, and gets increasingly worse over time, that's a brain dysfunction.

They've done CAT scans on both depressed and non-depressed individuals. Depressed people's brain show a signifigant decrease in activity. They've also done scans on depressed individuals before and after treatment. After therapy and medication their brains look more like the average non-depressed persons.
posted by echolalia67 at 11:06 PM on October 18, 2003


Why is Bukowski so fascinating?

I just think he's a great writer. There are plenty of people who disagree of course, but I found his books (particularly Ham on Rye and Women) very moving. I also loved that he never felt sorry for himself; never apologized for his personality.

Relating somewhat to the thread: "Some of the best often die by their own hand, just to get away. Those left behind often wonder why anyone would ever want to get away from them." - buk
posted by dobbs at 11:57 PM on October 18, 2003


rushmc, quit trolling and be very thankful that you don't know what echolalia67 and I are talking about.
posted by konolia at 4:09 AM on October 19, 2003 [1 favorite]


Thanks for the back-up konolia. I don't know if rushmc is merely being contrarian or if he's way into the whole Thomas Szasz thing. At any rate rushmc, you should delve into the reams and reams of clinical research out there on the subject if you want to have a broader understanding of what clinical depression is about.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who gets suckered in by crazy = hot

And here I've been all these years, trying to present a normal, emotionally stable facade to the world. Guys think crazy chicks are hot - who knew?

I've been robbed, I tell you;)
posted by echolalia67 at 11:16 AM on October 19, 2003 [1 favorite]


Szasz: Without seeming excessively pessimistic, my view is
I have always challenged the "psychoses." Why don't you have a right to say you are Jesus? And why isn't the proper response to that "congratulations"?


And people take this man seriously?

I wasn't familiar with this man or his opinions. Thanks for mentioning him. I needed a laugh.
posted by konolia at 1:22 PM on October 19, 2003


konolia and echolalia, you do your cause no benefit by making unbased assumptions. Experiencing clinical depression is not an initiation into a sacred order, complete with arcane and secret knowledge. (And you might be surprised who lurked 'neath the next cowl over.)
posted by rushmc at 7:27 PM on October 19, 2003


rush, I wish it was a secret order. Then I could renounce it.

I'm not being snarky here, I really don't understand what you are getting at with your last few comments.
posted by konolia at 8:35 PM on October 19, 2003


I'm not being snarky. I do however feel that you were, and I was trying to answer your challenge for an empirical standard in the most reasonable way possible. Well, do you think what I've provided is an appropriate standard to judge whether or not someone's brain is functioning well?
posted by echolalia67 at 10:12 PM on October 19, 2003


Uh, I was t alking to rushmc, not you. You and I are on the same page.
posted by konolia at 3:52 AM on October 20, 2003


I was talking to rushmc, too. Should have been clearer about that. My bad.
posted by echolalia67 at 10:05 AM on October 20, 2003


konolia, echolalia67: I hear you and agree. I don't think anyone commits suicide because their principles tell them to, and I'm no stranger to depression, psychic pain, or suicidal ideation. Clearly, when the temptation is there, and the pain is overwhelming, there's no empirical reason to stick around. I'm just saying that at times like that, principles can be the only thing to cling to.

I'd also note that just as large as the gulf between those who've been on the brink and those who haven't, is the gulf between those who've been on the brink and those who've done it. Who can say what mental feat it requires to resolve and accomplish such a hideous task? None, because none survive to tell the tale. Even some who've attempted it may not have crossed that event horizon into final resolve, hence their failure. On a certain level, we just don't know.

I don't presume to judge anyone, especially not their pain. And I only wish to explore the topic so far. It's a principle of mine: don't go there.
posted by scarabic at 10:24 AM on October 20, 2003


I lost a friend to cancer about a year and a half ago.

At the viewing, I was struck by the thought of how much pain was standing in that room. And then I thought how much that pain would have been compounded if the person who had died had been a suicide instead.

At that moment I promised myself that no matter how much pain and anguish I was in, that I would never ever do that to my family and loved ones. There have been times before and since that I have been tempted to pray to die-even tempted to overdose-but that thought stops me like a sentinel at the gate.

Having said that, I don't judge others who have done it. I am not the Judge. A lot of time it is simply a fatal result of the mood disorder that I and many others suffer from. Way too many of us lose our lives to that. Many who have fought and fought and just can't fight anymore.

I have the benefit of a ton of family support plus a great support system of church friends. So many people don't have that. And how they can stand it is way beyond me.
posted by konolia at 11:26 AM on October 20, 2003


At that moment I promised myself that no matter how much pain and anguish I was in, that I would never ever do that to my family and loved ones. There have been times before and since that I have been tempted to pray to die-even tempted to overdose-but that thought stops me like a sentinel at the gate.

I think the things that have helped me step back from the brink have been:

The emotional cruelty of it - I wouldn't be able to write any note eloquent enough to save my loved ones from grief and heavy guilt.

The afterlife - Sure I can't prove they're is one, but if there is one, isn't it possible that instead of relief from pain, I would be stuck in the same emotional hell in death as in life?

Irony - what if it was destined that I was to meet the love of my life, get my dream job, or have some emotional breakthrough...a day, a week, a month, a year later, but instead checked out too soon? What if I had the winning lottery ticket in my pocket when I jumped in front of the train? How much would that suck.

Pessimism - There's a pretty good chance I would fuck up and instead of dying, become brain damaged, crippled, or grotesquely disfigured.

Nope, no noble, life-affirming, wisdom on my part - just knowlege that there can be some pretty horrible consequences to suicide and no guaranteed benefits.
posted by echolalia67 at 1:49 PM on October 20, 2003


Yeah, that too.
I guess my time at the funeral home really crystallized it for me tho.
posted by konolia at 2:24 PM on October 20, 2003


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