Sounds familiar?

March 25, 2004 10:11 PM

With several anti-Semitic incidents in the past week or two in Toronto, why would Toronto's York University suspend its local Hillel due to clashes over Israeli-Palestinian conflict debates in a hypocritical move that fails to address demonstration and violence-related offenses by Muslim groups? Sure it's Canada and no one cares, but should Canadian Jews start being afraid? (The second article may be one-sided, but the last line presents an ominous fact.)
posted by Krrrlson (43 comments total)

Mmmmkay. So in the wake of anti-semitic hate crimes in a city, that city's local Hillel should be allowed to do whatever they want to someone putting on a pro-Palestinian demonstration? I don't think so. If these people clashed with some other demonstrators and got suspended from campus for it, what do swastikas on a synagogue across town have to do with it?
posted by scarabic at 10:43 PM on March 25, 2004

This post sucks.

the last line presents an ominous fact

No it doesn't, it outrageously compares an action taken by York University in response to a nearly-violent altercation - which is explained in this easily-accessible, not-ridiculously-biased article - to the systematic government oppression of Jews in Europe in the leadup to the Holocaust. I mean, give me a freaking break.

Stupid post.
posted by Dasein at 10:46 PM on March 25, 2004

Dasein posted the link I was about to post. What the IsraelNN story fails to mention is that the Hillel has not been banned, it is just not allowed to hold activities on campus for one week - and secondly the pro-Palestinian group involved in the dispute has been given the same penalty. Which makes that ominous last line look rather blatantly manipulative.
posted by pascal at 10:52 PM on March 25, 2004

If you want us to care about a story, don't link to Arutz-Sheva.
posted by kickingtheground at 10:54 PM on March 25, 2004

Thanks for the link, Dasein.

(The second article may be one-sided dishonest, but the last line presents an ominous fact context-ignorrant slur.)
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 11:00 PM on March 25, 2004

hey the hillil has not been present on my house since I've been in it, But that is not suprizing, not know WTF a Hillel is...
posted by Elim at 11:05 PM on March 25, 2004

Hey Great Idea kids, Lets quit Pissing each other off!?!
Of course someone actually has to ACTUALLY quit doing it...
posted by Elim at 11:06 PM on March 25, 2004

Um.... yeah. Oh! Yeah! This post sucks!
posted by scarabic at 12:47 AM on March 26, 2004

No matter how hard you stir the waves within a tea-cup will only reach a certain height.
posted by johnnyboy at 1:41 AM on March 26, 2004

Is "flame bait" one word, or two?

Bonus points for comparing Canada now to Germany and Austria in the 1930s. I guess I must have missed the Nuremberg Laws being passed here.
posted by tranquileye at 3:46 AM on March 26, 2004

I guess I must have missed the Nuremberg Laws being passed here.

that's because you're obviously an anti-Semite.


but should Canadian Jews start being afraid?

of course they should. didn't you hear? PM Paul Martin is a notorious anti-semite. everybody who doesn't agree with Krrrlson is anti-Semite too.

anyway, to put the final nail in this thread, l'll quote from the (obviously anti-semitical) Globe & Mail story (emphasis mine) for archival purposes:


York University has banned Israeli and Palestinian student groups from holding activities on campus after demonstrations last week turned ugly.

"We're really disappointed in the behaviour of these groups," said Nancy White, a spokeswoman at York University. "They're not allowed to be in Vari Hall, period. They know the rules on that and they broke [them]."

The university administration has sent letters of reprimand both to the pro-Israeli group Hillel and to Solidarity for Palestinian Human Rights. For the rest of the week, the groups are not allowed to act as host to any events at the university, something they actively participate in on the politically charged campus.


what a terrible, dishonest post. but there's a way to save it: I suggest you add a little more useless paranoia, a joke about "camel-fuckers" and recycle it in some Arab-hating warblog -- it'll be a big hit, I guess.
posted by matteo at 3:50 AM on March 26, 2004

Well, I liked this part of the FPP, "Sure it's Canada and no one cares".
posted by Outlawyr at 4:21 AM on March 26, 2004

just post it to little green footballs, they'd cream over each other. "See! Communist Canada is turning fascist! A friend of a friend who knows somebody who has a relative in Canada says that the worst hasn't eve hit the press yet! More later, I have to change locations, I think the terrorists have determined my whereabouts!"
posted by substrate at 5:02 AM on March 26, 2004

Quick! Panic! One Jewish group somewhere got called on something bad they did - if we're not careful there'll be another holocaust any second now...

[Officially nominated for worst post of 2004.]
posted by tiamat at 5:25 AM on March 26, 2004

I am dismayed at seeing some Zionists and Israelis internalizing Nazi Fascism: the Warsaw Ghetto and the concentration camp become such a part of their narritive that they express is by means of the Occupied Territories, and use the techniques of classic Jew-baiting to attack their opponents. It is very disturbing and reminds me of that Nietzsche quote about the abyss.
posted by tranquileye at 5:59 AM on March 26, 2004

Kickingtheground: Why not post a list for what is acceptable places from which one can post and those not acceptable? We know you are fair and balenced. In my experience I have read stuff that I thought was helpful, useful, important and had found it at places I disliked or detested. And the reverse.
posted by Postroad at 6:08 AM on March 26, 2004

Why not post a list for what is acceptable places from which one can post and those not acceptable?

Submitted for your consideration: indymedia.org
posted by Ryvar at 6:18 AM on March 26, 2004

It is very disturbing and reminds me of that Nietzsche quote about the abyss.

Battle not with monsters,
lest ye become a monster,
and if you gaze into the Abyss,
the Abyss gazes also into you.

[...for the kids at home]
posted by mcgraw at 6:23 AM on March 26, 2004

Submitted for your consideration: indymedia.org

Yeah, that's balance.
posted by Dasein at 6:26 AM on March 26, 2004

I went to York. Class of 2000.

It has a huge proportion of Jewish students. The possibility that York administration did anything at all out of anti-semitism is completely ludicrous. Without the active and strong support that York has received from their Jewish students and alumnae over the years, York wouldn't even exist. President Lorna Marsden may be an idiot, but she's not *stupid*.

I have no doubt whatsoever that she made this decision, since something this potentially alienating would never have happened lower in the food chain. And only because she saw it as an absolute necessity to avoid a situation that was threatening to become violent. See this for more information on why a Canadian University might be worried about violence between pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian factions.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:22 AM on March 26, 2004

If you'd actually read the article (and the one from Globe and Mail), rather than, say, posting out-of-context quotes, you'd note that the hypocrisy lies in only taking action after Hillel's demonstration after ignoring numerous previous pro-Palestinian demonstrators' university policy violations. Never mind that *all* of Hillel's activities (rather than just demonstrations) were suspended beyond their 40-person office, and it is pretty much the only large Jewish organization on campus. Never mind that two pro-Israeli organizations were suspended vs. one pro-Palestinian one in response to what started as an unauthorized, illegal pro-Palestinian demonstration (which university staff failed to address).

The fact that York has a large Jewish population is no longer relevant - on two occasions in the last year a Jewish student was physically attacked without provocation on campus (once by pro-Palestinian demonstrators in a previous incident, once by so-called "unknown assailants" after the student was involved in a pro-Israeli demonstration). Toronto has a large Jewish population as well, and yet anti-Semitic incidents are rising sharply. As for what happened in Concordia, it proves yet again how much the pro-Palestinian groups are used to violence as the only means to achieve an end.

To the pricks in the audience - downplay and deny this all you want. Oh, and go ahead and post another "Bush is a fucking Arab-hating Nazi OMFG I hate Bush" article. Those are REALLY "fair and honest."
posted by Krrrlson at 9:15 AM on March 26, 2004

Yeah, this is one of the most dishonest posts I've ever read on Metafilter. It's not like there aren't many instances of real antisemitism in the world, if one needs something to be upset about.

I'm curious, krrlson: what did you think this post would accomplish? Were you unaware that the second article was dishonest, or did you assume that no one would look into the matter further?

Never mind that *all* of Hillel's activities (rather than just demonstrations) were suspended beyond their 40-person office, and it is pretty much the only large Jewish organization on campus. Never mind that two pro-Israeli organizations were suspended vs. one pro-Palestinian one in response to what started as an unauthorized, illegal pro-Palestinian demonstration (which university staff failed to address).

Where are you getting this? Man, leave well enough alone. You got fooled by a fine piece of hackery. Let it go.

As for what happened in Concordia, it proves yet again how much the pro-Palestinian groups are used to violence as the only means to achieve an end.

Your lack of any sort of link or logic on this point betrays your underlying intellectual dishonesty. You might think that you're being extra-vigilant about anti-semitism, but you're really crying "wolf," and just like a bullshit accusation of rape or racism, you're only serving to pre-taint honest dialogue on the real institutionalized hate (and yes, of course, antisemitism) in the world.

You do relaize that you are accusing a large and important educational and cultural entity of institutional embrace of the most odious kind of human ill judgment, and the only thing you have to back you up is a demonstrably dishonest hack piece? And I would vnture to guess that your average York student--your contempt for them notwithstanding--knows more about Judaism than you know about Islam, much less about those in the West who oppose the occupation on human rights grounds (not exactly a violent group, despite your unsourced claims to the contrary). If you want humanity to move beyond religious hate, why don't you start at home?
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 9:29 AM on March 26, 2004

The fact that York has a large Jewish population is no longer relevant - on two occasions in the last year a Jewish student was physically attacked without provocation on campus (once by pro-Palestinian demonstrators in a previous incident, once by so-called "unknown assailants" after the student was involved in a pro-Israeli demonstration).

What? By Lorna Marsden? That bitch!

My point was that whatever the atmosphere may be like amongst the students on campus, the administration, if it was going to take sides, would not likely be taking the Palestinian one. The fact that students have been attacked by other students doesn't appear to refute that argument.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:32 AM on March 26, 2004

The one-sidedness (if you call it dishonesty, then the majority of the articles posted to the contrary are dishonest) was mentioned in the post, Ignatius.

As for the purpose of this post, I guess I wanted to see if you loud-mouthed, violently prejudiced morons on Mefi had it left in you to try and rationally adress a troubling issue that doesn't jive with your incredibly narrow viewpoints. What I learned is that you do not even read the articles or posts, much less formulate an intelligent response. The only intelligent-sounding response I've ever seen out of y'all was one that pandered to your own views - probably because you borrow and hyperbolize someone else's well-practiced worn out tirade. I have my answer now, and you are free to rant and rave all you want.

Now, as your message mostly consists of calling my credibility into question instead of addressing the issue, I don't feel the need to seriously address it. Try again when you grow up.

jacquilynne - I'd like to think that the largely Jewish donation money that built York is enough insurance to prevent anti-Semitism. However, the violence and brazenness of anti-Israeli demonstrators and anti-Semitic incidents make me fear otherwise. So far, the administration has done nothing but cater to the louder voice.
posted by Krrrlson at 9:40 AM on March 26, 2004

Is there a charm school at York, or did you go to a different university?
posted by bifter at 9:58 AM on March 26, 2004

However, the violence and brazenness of anti-Israeli demonstrators and anti-Semitic incidents make me fear otherwise.

Your conflation of the two is at the heart of your lack of reason. As to whether one is a "violently prejudiced loudmouth moron" because they question the validity of a supposed piece of journalism that purposely omits facts to change the meaning of the event being reported... I'll go ahead and grant that to you. My bias againt dishonesty and propaganda is pretty strong, so, you know.

Before bowing out of this conversation (feel free to take gratuitous shots at me, as they're gonna be free), I just want to point out how bizarre it is that you see the other people in this thread as needing to somehow be on the defensive. You made a post that combined an article about increasing antisemitism with a biased, incomplete, dishonest article, and others simply pointed that out. You know, there's nothing from my comments or many of the others that even indicates waht we think about Israel/Palestine. You are the only one conflating those two, erroneously in the FPP and childishly in this discussion. What the "morons" have done is simply point out the fallacy of your juxtaposing those two articles.

If I posted an article about increasing antisemitism, and then another about how Krrrlson gives money to families of known Nazi supporters, would my allegation that you are, in fact, a super-secret undercover Nazi be unquestionable? No. It would be horseshit. It would be illogical, and its very foundation would be suspect. But apparently, that would make anyone telling me that a moron.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 10:00 AM on March 26, 2004

Krrrlson: You admit a lot about yourself when you equate anti-Israeli to anti-Semitism. The one is not the other.

When you say "the majority of articles posted to the contrary" I wonder what you're talking about, because I only see one, and it's perfectly balanced. (There's a second article that talks about Concordia, but it's fine too.) The article you linked to really is dishonest, it implies that only the Jewish group was punished when this was NOT in fact the case.

So no, basically I have to conclude that you're a lying liar. Not to mention a really bad troll, what with the "violently prejudiced morons" line.
posted by tiamat at 10:14 AM on March 26, 2004

Again you ignore what I say. Let me put it in bullet format, it'll make it easier for you to digest:

- Many times has a violently biased article been posted on Mefi to introduce an issue that requires objective, unbiased discussion. Acutely pro-Palestinian articles that have come here before are an example.

- Rather than attempt any discussion whatsoever, all the posts did was call into question the "honesty" of the article and projected it onto my own. This, combined with insults leveled at me, apparently prove that there is no need to discuss the issue. Note AGAIN that I warned of the one-sidedness of the article right in the FPP.

- The conflation of anti-Semitism and Israel/Palestine is reasonable when a Jewish group gets unfairly singled out over clashes about the latter. If anything is childish, it is ignoring this fact.

- Previous comments made on Mefi colour what you say now. I do not call you prejudiced morons because you questioned the validity of one article - I call you prejudiced morons (partly) because you've never questioned the validity of an article that supported your views.

- You are inventing my alleged fallacies where there are none (I REALLY suggest you actually RTFA), and supporting them with fallacies of your own.

- Lastly, I have neither the time nor the inclination to look for links that state well-known facts (known to anyone who knows anything of an issue or bothered to read articles linked by myself and others, that is).

tiamat - I make no equation of any sort. I point out a linkage in this case only. The majority of articles refers to pro-Palestinian articles on Mefi. I have to conclude that you care a lot more about getting your uninformed opinion out for everyone to see than about reading what others have said.
posted by Krrrlson at 10:19 AM on March 26, 2004

The conflation of anti-Semitism and Israel/Palestine is reasonable when a Jewish group gets unfairly singled out over clashes about the latter. If anything is childish, it is ignoring this fact.

BOTH groups had their activities privileges suspended. BOTH! No singling out! You seem to be conveniently ignoring that fact.

If you want to argue that Hillel didn't start it, and thus were unfairly included in the suspension, well, you might be able to make a case. But if you're trying to argue that only Hillel was affected when that's clearly not true, you're the one being childish.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:30 AM on March 26, 2004

Very good jacquilynne, you're almost starting to read what I've said. Firstly, it was two pro-Israeli groups suspended vs. one pro-Palestinian group. Secondly, the pro-Palestinian demonstration violated university policy (i.e. no protests directly inside Vari hall), which was ignored by the administration until the confrontation. Thirdly, such violations on behalf of pro-Palestinian groups have been overlooked by the administration numerous times before Hillel began conducting its own protests on the issue.
posted by Krrrlson at 10:37 AM on March 26, 2004

I would like to sincerely apologize to the Metafilter community. In the excitement of seeing a post about my alma mater, I allowed myself to be drawn into a stupid argument about a pointless I/P post. I will exercise better judgment in the future.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:15 AM on March 26, 2004

That's it.

MetaTalk
posted by scarabic at 11:37 AM on March 26, 2004

I guess I wanted to see if you loud-mouthed, violently prejudiced morons on Mefi had it left in you to try and rationally address a troubling issue that doesn't jive with your incredibly narrow viewpoints

See, Krrrlson, that's where you lost me. What the hell did you expect -- sad, sober head-nodding? If you tilt a metafilter FPP in that direction, a bunch of people will be pissed off, and those people will post first, betamax-ing the discussion into a flamewar from the start. If you had conceded what needed to be conceded and focused on real issues (parallels between institutional reactions to Israeli-Palestinian escalation in North America and the Middle East, maybe) this could have been a cool thread, but now it's fucked. I only even read this far because I'm jewish and bored.
posted by Tlogmer at 11:43 AM on March 26, 2004

(Also, I apologize for making up the phrase Betamax-ing. That was really pretentious.)
posted by Tlogmer at 11:49 AM on March 26, 2004

So, who wants latkes?
posted by jonmc at 11:54 AM on March 26, 2004

Only latkes? No tabouleh? Why don't you just start up the train, genocide boy!
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 11:56 AM on March 26, 2004

i'd like to know what betamaxing was supposed to mean. are we talking video machines or tree pruning?
posted by andrew cooke at 12:29 PM on March 26, 2004

Could someone start up a second Palestinian group on that campus, so that it can be banned, thus putting an end to krrrlson's outrage at there being twice as many Jewish groups banned as Palestinian?

"Many times has a violently biased article been posted on Mefi ... [snip]"

Pissing in the pool because Johnny also pissed in the pool is a damn poor way to treat your community, let alone a poor excuse.

[snip] ... I call you prejudiced morons ... [snip]

Way to win friends and influence people, bozo.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:34 PM on March 26, 2004

In my particular 1/2-Arab California-boy style, I've just enjoyed some hummus on tortillas. Mmm.

I think betamaxing is the act of pulling out an age-old binary argument about which of two things is better, and driving the thread down said age-old toilet. The verb might just as well be Macintoshing. Did I get it?
posted by scarabic at 12:36 PM on March 26, 2004

Now, as your message mostly consists of calling my credibility into question instead of addressing the issue,

heh. too bad that the issue, ie your post, was duly dismantled. weak, dishonest post.

your credibility has never been an issue, you never had any (nor you ever had any manners, but that really is your problem, unfortunately you sometimes turn your bad manners into this community's problem too).

but keep whining if you want. and keep crying wolf with your lame "anti-semitism" calls. when you have an actual anti-semitical episode to report, nobody will listen to you. if everything is anti-semitism, nothing is. even you can figure that out, I guess.

and thanks for the insults -- coming from you, they're a badge of honor.

next!
posted by matteo at 12:37 PM on March 26, 2004

This post is so bad I can only hope it's the first in a series. Seeing Krrrlson treat a minor campus spat like it was the freaking Six-Day War makes me nostalgic about my college days.

If you think your club's one-week suspension was bad, my friend, you should have been there when they instituted a no-smoking rule in the cafeteria at Stephen F. Austin State University. That campus still echoes with the tumult of our letter-writing campaign.
posted by rcade at 12:50 PM on March 26, 2004

I never get why the people so ratcheted up about the whole I/P thing insist that there is an excluded middle here. It is possible to be sensitive to the plight of impoverished, disenfranchised Palestinians without willing the destruction of Israel and all living Jews in a bloody pogrom. It is also possible to condemn acts of terrorism without being a megalomaniacal Zionist.

If you read the article, you see the horrific callousness and evil of the local muslim community:

Imam Abdul Hai Patel, of the Islamic Council of Imams Canada, wrote to Berman expressing "deepest shock and disgust" at the vandalism of Jewish homes and desecration of a cemetery. "We ... join hands with the Jewish community and the police to bring the culprits to justice and to promote respect and harmony among all faiths."

Yes, a race war is clearly imminent in the streets of Toronto.
posted by vraxoin at 1:51 PM on March 26, 2004

Betamax-ing -- Beta's a better format than VHS in terms of picture quality, but in the U.S. the market failed, selecting VHS instead, because it came out earlier in a cheap, movie-ready format (the earliest beta tapes could only hold about an hour, I think; plus, VHS machines could be clones). Dual-format VCRs were rare, so once VHS had a slight advantage, Beta was totally locked out -- it was a feedback loop in which more VHS players encouraged the wider availability of VHS tapes and vice versa. (The same thing actually happened with the gas car engine; if there hadn't been a major water shortage around (?) 1920 we'd all be driving Stanley Steamer equivalents.) I think I've been reading too much Cory Doctorow.
posted by Tlogmer at 2:04 PM on March 26, 2004