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November 3, 2004 8:22 AM   Subscribe

Kerry Concedes President Bush won a second term from a divided and anxious nation, his promise of steady, strong wartime leadership trumping John Kerry's fresh-start approach to Iraq and joblessness. After a long, tense night of vote counting, the Democrat called Bush to concede Ohio and the presidency, The Associated Press learned.
posted by Outlawyr (504 comments total)

 
So I did see three of these just now. I thought it was the beer. (#1 , #2, #3)
posted by dabitch at 8:27 AM on November 3, 2004


Well shit, we'll still keep counting the fucking votes, won't we?
posted by Peter H at 8:28 AM on November 3, 2004


Clinton/Obama '08. Start getting used to it.
posted by mrbula at 8:30 AM on November 3, 2004


FOUR MORE YEARS!

BUSH WINS!
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 8:30 AM on November 3, 2004


...
posted by hugsnkisses at 8:30 AM on November 3, 2004


Until the impeachment, anyway.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 8:31 AM on November 3, 2004


damn...so much for ohio being another florida, eh?
posted by joedan at 8:31 AM on November 3, 2004


I can't wait to moveon. This election and race was frustrating and one heck of a ride.

Nevada just announced, GWB.
posted by tomplus2 at 8:31 AM on November 3, 2004


.
posted by scottq at 8:31 AM on November 3, 2004


.
posted by rlef98 at 8:31 AM on November 3, 2004


Next on the agenda: Terry McAuliffe's resignation. Right? RIGHT?
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 8:32 AM on November 3, 2004


You poor yank bastards.
posted by Pericles at 8:33 AM on November 3, 2004


.
posted by bluedaniel at 8:33 AM on November 3, 2004


four more tears
posted by quasistoic at 8:33 AM on November 3, 2004


What a pussy.
posted by Espoo2 at 8:33 AM on November 3, 2004


.
posted by h00dini at 8:34 AM on November 3, 2004


Instead of dropping a pebble or a dot, I'd prefer we say FUCK YOU.
posted by Peter H at 8:34 AM on November 3, 2004


[dabitch, 3's a charm]
Well, I guess the question for Democrats is, if they can't beat this guy, who can they beat? Will the party shift left or right to change the numbers next time around?
The question for Bush is, does he move to more moderate policies given the slim margin of victory or does he get out the wish list and go crazy?
posted by Outlawyr at 8:34 AM on November 3, 2004


"You poor yank bastards."

"we'll be alright. you're the ones who're going to have to worry."
posted by lotsofno at 8:35 AM on November 3, 2004


WOO! FOUR MORE YEARS!!! WOO-HOO!!!!

Hang on, that sucks!
posted by dodgygeezer at 8:35 AM on November 3, 2004


"Steady and strong leadership"? Is that what you call being a reality-challenged pathological liar and ignoramus?

The people have spoken. The people are fucking idiots.
posted by Reverend Mykeru at 8:35 AM on November 3, 2004


No one can say that the will of the people was not served-- America clearly chose Bush and his policies. If the people on the coasts and in the cities want their views to be heard, they're going to have to think of other ways to do so, because the Nation at large is not really interested in their values or ideas at this time.
posted by cell divide at 8:36 AM on November 3, 2004


but at least

IT'S OVER!!!!

posted by scarabic at 8:36 AM on November 3, 2004


Christ, I thought every vote counted. Way to sacrifice the democracy, Kerry. I thought you had cajones.
posted by bunnytricks at 8:36 AM on November 3, 2004


Who will run in '08? And can a 3rd party get someone viable in the race?
posted by a3matrix at 8:36 AM on November 3, 2004


Clinton/Obama '08

For what? To ensure a third consecutive Republican term?
posted by loquax at 8:36 AM on November 3, 2004


FUCK YOU indeed.

and a dot.

.

Also, a "SEND HELP PLEASE"
posted by fillsthepews at 8:37 AM on November 3, 2004


.
posted by geekyguy at 8:37 AM on November 3, 2004


"we'll be alright. you're the ones who're going to have to worry."

Worry about what? That your economy will go down the toilet and then I'll be able to get DVD's really cheap? I mean, West Wing DVD's aren't cheap.
posted by dodgygeezer at 8:37 AM on November 3, 2004


.
posted by Busithoth at 8:37 AM on November 3, 2004


Outlawyr, well since he doesn't have to get reelected now, who cares about the slim margin of victory? I say he goes fucking crazy.

oh, and Bush and America's homophobes, FUCK YOU.

(on preview - scarabic it's just beginning)
posted by Peter H at 8:37 AM on November 3, 2004


.
posted by Shane at 8:37 AM on November 3, 2004


I'm glad that Americans seem to be more concerned with not letting gay couples share their health benefits than not destroying the world.

Getting those state anti-gay ammendments on the ballots and then using them in the 72-hour plan was a masterstoke. They are building a new circle of hell for you, Karl.

I now hate America for the first time in my life. Thanks, everyone.
posted by n9 at 8:39 AM on November 3, 2004


Clinton/Obama '08
For what? To ensure a third consecutive Republican term?


Yeah, because those right-wingers aint going vote for a woman and a black guy.
posted by dodgygeezer at 8:39 AM on November 3, 2004


No one can say that the will of the people was not served-- America clearly chose Bush and his policies.

Agreed, and I'm glad in a way. It's nice to know that the problem is the electorate. It dismisses this vain hope that we can somehow solve America's problems with one candidate. We can now officially stop fighting against Bush and start fighting against ignorance, intolerance and fear.

Peter H - well obviously the WORLD isn't over, but the anticipation of this firgging election is behind us now. That is, unless we're still waiting for a bumper crop of Kerry votes in Ohio, or whatever.
posted by scarabic at 8:40 AM on November 3, 2004


Kerry. I thought you had cajones.

Whatever made you think that? At least in '96 Bob Dole showed comittment and balls by resigning the Senate to run for higher office.

It was never all or nothing with Kerry.
posted by geekyguy at 8:40 AM on November 3, 2004


Americans could fuck up a baked potato.

My advice: Duck and Cover.
posted by dobbs at 8:40 AM on November 3, 2004


n9 - take it easy on those of us IN America who are as disgusted and outraged as you. Thanks.
posted by scarabic at 8:41 AM on November 3, 2004


.
posted by chicobangs at 8:41 AM on November 3, 2004


They may be two of the most pleasurable things around, but if I had a magic wand, I would wave it around (yesterday, maybe) and make sex and religion go away.

Without their invidious effect on American politics, such a petty and unreasonable man as GWB wouldn't have a chance at winning a dogcatcher's seat.

Four years of ineptitude and skullduggery wasn't enough? Shit.
posted by kozad at 8:41 AM on November 3, 2004


I drink gin when I'm angry.

It's so hard to hide gin in the office.
posted by quasistoic at 8:41 AM on November 3, 2004


Kerry can always redact his concession, a la Al Gore, can't he? CAN'T HE??
posted by Succa at 8:41 AM on November 3, 2004


I want to know if his concession means they
won't count the Ohio votes eleven days from now.
posted by Peter H at 8:42 AM on November 3, 2004


.
posted by nyoki at 8:42 AM on November 3, 2004


If Blair starts following a Bush agenda in the social sphere, as he does in the foreign policy arena, he's f*cked. He better still understand that we still believe in progress, not reaction.

You can keep your homophobic amendments, your anti-choice proposals, your crap education and your fantastic deficits.

It's democracy, Jim, but not as we know it.
posted by dash_slot- at 8:42 AM on November 3, 2004


scarabic: I agree with n9 wholeheartedly.

You know where I live.
posted by quasistoic at 8:43 AM on November 3, 2004


Once again... liberals bitch, conservatives vote. I now prepare for the inevitable "but the wrong people have spoken" whine.
posted by cmdnc0 at 8:43 AM on November 3, 2004


I'm so depressed - I had really managed to convince myself that Kerry could pull it off. Zogby made that prediction, and I was feeling quietly confident, and even hoping that Kerry would manage to win bigger than expected. And then the states he needed just started slipping over into the red, and now...

I just don't get it.
posted by jasper411 at 8:44 AM on November 3, 2004


Clinton/Obama '08

yes, let's talk about that. Why scream and rant?

Does anyone think they would go over? I don't think Hillary has a wide enough base. Obama is an interesting guy, but maybe in another year, '08 is too soon for him.
posted by tomplus2 at 8:44 AM on November 3, 2004


.

I'm seriously considering buying one of these
posted by daver at 8:44 AM on November 3, 2004


quasistoic: try vodka.
posted by kozad at 8:45 AM on November 3, 2004


This just makes me sad. Clearly I don't belong to this country anymore, if I ever did.

It reminds me of one of those Onion man-in-the-street quotes from 2000: "They say you get the government you deserve, but I don't remember ass-raping any nuns." You know, I don't care that this is what all these other folks want; it's that they insist on bringing me down with them.

*sigh*
posted by dame at 8:45 AM on November 3, 2004


> Until the impeachment

Yeah, Republican house/senate are problably burning up to impeach a Republican President.
posted by dand at 8:45 AM on November 3, 2004


I haven't been this upset or devastated in a long, long time.

To those in America who are in the minority, take cover, and stay strong.
posted by tomcosgrave at 8:45 AM on November 3, 2004


.
posted by rmannion at 8:46 AM on November 3, 2004


I don't think Hillary has a wide enough base.

Ha, come on now, baby got back!
(first laugh all day, thanks)
posted by Peter H at 8:46 AM on November 3, 2004


Just a little post-US-election mix tape I put together. Streaming OGG. Heed it well. Or just come on over, I'll offer you a place to stay.
posted by Jimbob at 8:47 AM on November 3, 2004


Yeah, because those right-wingers aint going vote for a woman and a black guy.

I have conservative relatives -college educated, mind you- who have said they would never vote for a woman for president because of PMS. Seriously.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 8:47 AM on November 3, 2004


If Blair starts following a Bush agenda in the social sphere, as he does in the foreign policy arena, he's f*cked. He better still understand that we still believe in progress, not reaction.


Well he's started to go that way dash_slot. I wonder though whether he was praying for a Kerry victory. Who knows what we're going to get dragged into this time.
posted by Summer at 8:47 AM on November 3, 2004


kerry's done the right and honorable thing for the good of the country and i salute him for it ... like it or not, we have what we have

i'm staying ... not all of us have the luxury of abandoning ship, you know ... and ... we'll all survive ... trust me
posted by pyramid termite at 8:47 AM on November 3, 2004


It's time to focus on 2006.
posted by machaus at 8:48 AM on November 3, 2004


I dunno, Kozad. If that pesky religion thing wasnt around, sex wouldnt be such a hard thing to come to terms with, I dont think. No pun intented. Throw my vote into the "fuck fuck fuck religion" camp. It aint my moral values.
posted by fillsthepews at 8:50 AM on November 3, 2004


This bush .... it vibrates??
posted by devbrain at 8:50 AM on November 3, 2004


Kerry conceded, before he voted against it! Oh, wait.
posted by dagny at 8:50 AM on November 3, 2004


. . . _ _ _ . . .
posted by shoepal at 8:51 AM on November 3, 2004


So take a few days to rest up. Hope that Move On and the other other groups have the foresight and money to start next week with spot ads that remind everyone what these guys said and every time they fuck up or every time they act as if they got an overwhelming mandate to act in their own interests there is something to keep the congress and White House somewhat accountable. Hope that there are smart and intelligent people in each congressional district that can immediately working to change the balance of congress in 06 to stop what appears to likely be an attempt to radically change the direction of this nation to an even more socially conservative and business friendly country that I'm convinced will have the US economically hostage to China India and Japan within 50 years. When the next terrorist attack occurs make sure to point out that they failed in their promise to keep us safe. (how anyone can say that is beyond me) When all the pending scandals and dirty tricks start emerging make sure that the public understands that these methods are not acceptable. When they try to legislate rules that further consolidate their power and the ability of big money to own the system get pissed. Get some ads on TV. If its not on TV its not real. The 4th estate has been neutered by the corporate ownership of all news outlets. To change the direction is going to take commitment and creativity. unfortunately I don't think much of that exists any more. I hope I'm wrong.
posted by mss at 8:51 AM on November 3, 2004


It's been said by those of us outside America that we hate the American government, we don't hate the American people. That was true. In 2000, Bush did not win the popular vote. He campaigned on a platform of compassionate conservatism and uniting the country. Americans who did vote for Bush can hardly be blamed for not realising what they were voting for.

As far as I'm concerned, all that changed yesterday. Americans (collectively) stuck their middle finger up at the rest of the world and I hope the rest of the world does the same back.

The American people looked at the record of Bush and decided it was worthy of re-election. For that, the American electorate has my utter contempt.
posted by salmacis at 8:52 AM on November 3, 2004


I apologize in advance for the smug gloating that will come from the Republican party.

The Lord gives, the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.
posted by aaronshaf at 8:52 AM on November 3, 2004


a great big FUCK YOU.

.
posted by bob sarabia at 8:53 AM on November 3, 2004


FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCKITY FUCK FUCK


damnit. i still don't feel any better.
posted by Stynxno at 8:53 AM on November 3, 2004


so what happens? will they continue counting the votes? what happens if in a couple of weeks the final vote count shows that kerry took ohio by a slim margin?

is conceding the same as dropping out?
posted by centrs at 8:53 AM on November 3, 2004


Something worth pondering on : more or less 16% of the total american population was enough to effectively (even if indirectly) decide the next four years of government administration (house,senate,presidency) for 100% of the population, almost 300 million people.
posted by elpapacito at 8:53 AM on November 3, 2004


fuck.
posted by H. Roark at 8:53 AM on November 3, 2004


Hooray!
posted by gyc at 8:55 AM on November 3, 2004


salmacis - that sucks. 40 something percent of voters did not vote for him, and that's just the feelings of the people that actually came to the polls. Dont judge all of us by that, its not fair. There is a lot of us that feel the way you do. Dont fucking forget that.
posted by fillsthepews at 8:56 AM on November 3, 2004


can anyone give me more information on the whole "the youth vote didn't mean shit" thing. I'd like to know more about it.

Also, you can count me in with the people that now hate america. And all the smug bastards around me gloating right now make me want to firebomb something.
posted by bob sarabia at 8:57 AM on November 3, 2004


LOL


I ♥ MetaFilter!
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 8:58 AM on November 3, 2004


"kerry's done the right and honorable thing"

That's debatable. He's done the convenient thing. Did he even want to win in the first place? Does this guy get excited about anything?

I don't know if Hillary could do anything, she's not a great speaker (although better than Kerry). She does not excite many Dems, but she sure gets the Repubs into battle mode. We need a stealth candidate. We can unveil his/her identity the day before the election, then they won't have time to define him/her.

Ok, I'm losing it.

WaaaAAaaaAAaaaah!
posted by Outlawyr at 8:59 AM on November 3, 2004


salmacis, don't despair too much...after all, if you guys are ever on the verge of being taken over by another country, we'll still jump in and save your asses.

elpapacito: yep -- that's how it works. It worked in 1992 and 1996 for Clinton, and in fact for virtually every other President. It's ALWAYS that way: once you account for only the eligible voters, and then whittle it down to those who actually vote, and then split the voting in 2 or 3 ways, well -- you're always going to have a minority of all Americans choosing the government. Why do you seem particularly upset with this concept following this election? Or were you just as baffled and/or angry following '92 and '96?
posted by davidmsc at 9:00 AM on November 3, 2004


The American people looked at the record of Bush and decided it was worthy of re-election

You do realize we're talking about a rather small margin here, right?

And enough with the "now-I-hate-America" bullshit. There are still plenty of us here prepared to defend our country against theocrats and nutjobs (even if that means 51% of the population).
posted by uncleozzy at 9:01 AM on November 3, 2004


What a fucking quitter.
posted by adampsyche at 9:02 AM on November 3, 2004


I can try to be optimistic about this, right? Right?

sigh....

To the rest of the world: Sorry. But on the + side, this will unify you and make you less dependent upon the US, which in the end will be a good thing (for you and probably the world in general. Just not for US).
posted by dig_duggler at 9:03 AM on November 3, 2004


According to NPR, only 1 in 10 of the 18 to 25 year olds voted. Hope you like the desert, kids.
posted by JoanArkham at 9:03 AM on November 3, 2004


can anyone give me more information on the whole "the youth vote didn't mean shit" thing.

10% turn out among eligible voters, aged 18-24. KIDS SUCK.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 9:03 AM on November 3, 2004


salmacis - that sucks. 40 something percent of voters did not vote for him, and that's just the feelings of the people that actually came to the polls. Dont judge all of us by that, its not fair. There is a lot of us that feel the way you do. Dont fucking forget that.
Go fuck yourself, Yankee bastard.

(OK, that was a joke...)

Yes, I know the situation, and I feel desperately sad for all those moderate Americans who have to put up with at least four more years of idiocy.

However in my mind there is a shift. Instead of "this American is a good guy, unless I know this is not the case" I can't help but feel "this American is a complete idiot who gets what he deserves - unless I know this is not the case". The burden of proof has changed.

I hope this feeling doesn't last.
posted by salmacis at 9:03 AM on November 3, 2004


god damn kids!
posted by bob sarabia at 9:04 AM on November 3, 2004


Hey Joanie.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 9:04 AM on November 3, 2004


.
posted by Mr Stickfigure at 9:04 AM on November 3, 2004


Some 1.5 million people voted in Florida who did not vote last time. Of those, 900,000 went to Bush, and 600,000 to Kerry.

Can someone tell me how 60% of new, previously unmotivated voters voted for Bush? This is a serious question, because I really can't figure out why.
posted by eas98 at 9:05 AM on November 3, 2004


So, Aaronshaf... happy your particular set of superstitions will be represented at the cost of stability in the entire world?
posted by jon_kill at 9:05 AM on November 3, 2004


I still think the votes were rigged.
posted by Peter H at 9:06 AM on November 3, 2004


.

IMPEACH THE FUCKING CHIMP
posted by DenOfSizer at 9:06 AM on November 3, 2004


Sal - Be sad for us. Seriously. I need a hug, badly. But dont forget there are still a LOT of people here who arent completely with heads up their butts. I dunno. We will try. I dont want to raise kids here though, if it doesnt change. But dont get all "RAAAAGE FUCK ALL AMERICANS" because it doesnt help us :(
posted by fillsthepews at 9:06 AM on November 3, 2004


I think that there may be surprises in Bush's second term, and not the surprises people are predicting. I believe he will actually run (somewhat) to the center to preserve his legacy. Now that he can't be re-elected, I think we'll see a Bush that is more like his father then he has been, which is to say more sober and accountable. Look for Ashcroft to exit and for Bush to act more like he did as Governer, which is to be solidly conservative, but to support some middle-of-the-road stuff as well.

However, the Republicans in the House and Senate are going to go hog wild, which in my opinion is where the real danger to the country is.I don't think Bush has been a very good president, but I'm not that afraid of his second term... he is part of the political aristocracy and wants to preserve his family and his place in history. But the newly elected Republicans in the Congress have no such desires, and really do want to shake up the system in significant ways, without regard to the fact that their brand of conservatism is not the majority view of the electorate.
posted by cell divide at 9:06 AM on November 3, 2004


.
posted by madamjujujive at 9:06 AM on November 3, 2004


Why despair? Sit back and watch, instead. Remember that, with a Republican President, a Republican Congress, and a right-leaning Supreme Court, they have no one to blame but themselves when it goes to hell due to a falling dollar, rising oil prices, and flat-lining foreign investment.

You think this is bad? Wait until the rush hits. The stock market's already ballooning.
posted by FormlessOne at 9:07 AM on November 3, 2004


sniffle sniffle I'll wheeze be ok
posted by jeblis at 9:08 AM on November 3, 2004


what salmacis said.
posted by mr.marx at 9:08 AM on November 3, 2004


It's clear to me that we're in the midst of a right-leaning cycle that may last quite a while.

But setting this and other disapointments aside, it's worth remembering that, as imperfect as it is, the American system still enables one of the most successful peaceful transitions of power the world has seen.
posted by o2b at 9:08 AM on November 3, 2004


cell divide: you're living in a dreamworld.
posted by keswick at 9:09 AM on November 3, 2004


As far as I'm concerned, all that changed yesterday. Americans (collectively) stuck their middle finger up at the rest of the world and I hope the rest of the world does the same back.

I absolutely sympathise, but you're wrong. First off, many people didn't vote for Bush. Second, some of the people who did vote Bush may not have been entirely clear what they're voting for - let's face it, the American media has done a piss poor job.

So let's not desert our friends who know what a shitheap Bush is. Maybe those working class and middle class people who voted Bush and will get totally screwed (again) because they were too scared and manipulated to know any better will eventually see what's happening behind the curtain. And once they come round, we don't want to be showing them our middle fingers.
posted by dodgygeezer at 9:09 AM on November 3, 2004


I can tell you, in an odd sort of tragic irony, I woke up more alive (furious, angry, hostile) but more alive clear-headed and motivated than I've been in a long time.

A great big FUCK YOU to everyone.
posted by Peter H at 9:10 AM on November 3, 2004


I still think the votes were rigged.

What you tell us three times is true? ;-)

Peter I'm truly sorry, but it's over. Bush has it. We've got a few rebuilding years ahead of us.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 9:10 AM on November 3, 2004


Why despair? Sit back and watch, instead

maybe your right. maybe they'll fuck everything up so badly that dems will win next time. i'll be sitting back and watching from canada though.
posted by bob sarabia at 9:10 AM on November 3, 2004


ha, FUCK YOU to that, PinkStainlessTail!
posted by Peter H at 9:11 AM on November 3, 2004


The lad's got spirit, I'll give him that.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 9:11 AM on November 3, 2004


eas98: Florida has millions of Evangelical voters-- part of Rove's brilliant strategy was to get them to vote, as many did not vote last year. They are hyper-motivated since 9/11 and really got excited about the Iraq war. I would bet that a fair portion of those new voters were Evangelical Christians.
posted by cell divide at 9:12 AM on November 3, 2004


oh ye of little faith. it's obvious that god approves, he even sent us a sign.

*cough*
posted by ZippityBuddha at 9:13 AM on November 3, 2004


Peter H, take a break for a few days, on me.

Did everyone notice the top logo image? The one that says "I voted and it totally sucked"? Funny right? Because I needed a laugh today, somehow, someway.
posted by mathowie at 9:13 AM on November 3, 2004


davidmsc: Again like in the other thread I think you're jumping to conclusion. I just said what I said. Could it be that because
of the last few months of propaganda and spinning and counterspinning you see every statement as a personal attack or as
an attack to a voting system ? Relax, it's over at least for a year.

Or were you just as baffled and/or angry following '92 and '96?
Where do I express baffling or anger at the result of this election ? Again, could it be that you're just jumping to your
own, personal conclusion, which I respect as individual opinion even if it's factually baseless ?
posted by elpapacito at 9:14 AM on November 3, 2004


To those in America who are in the minority, take cover, and stay strong.

WTF does that mean? take cover from what, stones, bullets, insults? What minority, who minority, and then "stay Strong" like your like some air raid warden handing out rubbish can lids during an attack....but TOMMY there is no air raid. At least not "here".

You dems could not even steal the election. And now, the news pundits are talking "civil war" within the democratic party. HA. civil war....what a joke...like voting for nader.

and poor daschlehound, may he slink into reading books on tape. he can start with "Great Expectations"....gees, he's like something out of "The Night Gallery"

McCain and Rudy in 08'.

4 MORE YEARS COLONEL.

As far as I'm concerned, all that changed yesterday. Americans (collectively) stuck their middle finger up at the rest of the world and I hope the rest of the world does the same back.

Trust me sunshine, when we stick out fingers, you'll know it.... and hey, it was a close race but you lump all americans into some collective and then you wish the "rest of the world" would do the same (finger waving)...gee, your bright.

GLOAT FUCKING GLOAT BABY Because this is the most powerful presidency, barring General Washington, the world has ever seen. We control the Senate, the Executive, Congress and soon the "Supremes"... we have a majority of republicans as governors.
posted by clavdivs at 9:14 AM on November 3, 2004


I want to know, will the vote still be counted in Ohio? The provisional ballots, the absentee ballots, etc? Or do they just throw all that in the wastebasket?
posted by zebra_monkey at 9:14 AM on November 3, 2004


Actually, more than 75% of Americans did not vote for George Bush, so this patronizing nonsense about idiot Americans who deserve whatever they get should be taken as the vile and spiteful garbage that it is. Even if everyone voted for Bush, just shut up already. Everyone knows how superior Canadians and Belgians and whomever else feels to Americans, no matter who's in office. But, keep up the paternalism and veiled threats, non-Americans, if that's how you think you can influence this or any administration.
posted by loquax at 9:15 AM on November 3, 2004


will they continue counting the votes?

Yes, not just in Ohio, but in every state. It'll be a week or two before official tallies are released, as every state evaluates the legitimacy of each individual provisional ballot.

what happens if in a couple of weeks the final vote count shows that kerry took ohio by a slim margin?

Then Kerry wins. It won't happen, though, so don't get your hopes up. Bush's lead in Ohio is too large to be overcome by the provisional ballots. (I'm talking realistically here, not theoretically possible, so don't go complaining that Bush's lead is currently X but there are X+1 provisional ballots.)

is conceding the same as dropping out?

No, conceding carries no legal significance whatsoever. The person who gets a majority of the electoral vote wins; not the person who receives a concession from his opponent.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:15 AM on November 3, 2004


There are going to be sooooo may great internet cartoons over the next four years.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 9:15 AM on November 3, 2004


The Lord gives, the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

Is this "Lord" something that we would need an established religion to know about?
posted by PrinceValium at 9:17 AM on November 3, 2004


Wow. I think I've got to stay away from here for a day or two. The overwhelming stench of despair and, worse, surrender, is making me ill. Someone call me after the poisoned Kool Aid has gone around the table.
posted by scarabic at 9:17 AM on November 3, 2004


well it looks like someone is happy.

posted by H. Roark at 9:18 AM on November 3, 2004


mathowie: yeah I noticed the totally sucked :) Guess that's a good way to deal with dissatisfaction, way better then banging head on the wall or laughing at other people belittling them with their "victory" ; it's not "their" to begin with :P but ssshhh don't tell them.
posted by elpapacito at 9:18 AM on November 3, 2004


What a bunch of frickin' whiners. Jeez, why can't all the libs just lose with a smattering of dignity and grace? The people spoke. And loudly. Deal with it for now, and gear up for 2008.

Look, the US economy is too large to turn the train on a dime. Any changes to the status of just about anything decided upon by Congress takes years to accomplish. Bush will wreck very few lives here on Metafilter based on any single policy decision. In fact, you will have a far greater chance of having an individual issue affected by State or Local government.
posted by insulglass at 9:19 AM on November 3, 2004


Well, at least irony isn't dead. The world anal gangbang record was broken yesterday. 101, no lube. Um, nsfw.
posted by adampsyche at 9:19 AM on November 3, 2004


If there was real democracy, California would form its own state. We've had enough of this tyranny of the majority crap, and we're tired of the fact that the only presidents that the whole nation can accept have to be members of the Country Bear Jamboree.

Truth be told, the election was lost in most parts of the United States largely on the premise of two words.

Massachusetts liberal.

...and that's not because there's anything wrong with Massachusetts liberals. People in California are willing to listen to anyone in America and will support them if they're worthy, regardless of accent.

Rather, it's because a bunch of people in the "Red Zone" are xenophobic, intolerant fucks.

Good luck edjumacatin' those masses...
posted by insomnia_lj at 9:19 AM on November 3, 2004


Well said, scarabic. See ya in a few days . . .
posted by JeffK at 9:19 AM on November 3, 2004


america makes the baby quonsar cry.
posted by quonsar at 9:19 AM on November 3, 2004


Okay, so next steps for the DNC:

1) Lots of handwringing, followed by more of the same. Cross fingers, hope Bush overreaches, and wait for the pendulum to swing.

2) Run to the right, become the mini-me Republicans.

3) Bloodbath. Party implodes, gets replaced by some other group that figures out how to hold on to the pro-choice, anti-war, civil rights people without alienating the keep-America-safe crowd. (Either a third party, or a gingrich-style revolution from within.)

Predictions?
posted by ook at 9:20 AM on November 3, 2004


There are going to be sooooo may great internet cartoons over the next four years.

The truth comes out! XQUZYPHYR has three and a half million votes hidden in his bedroom.
posted by dodgygeezer at 9:20 AM on November 3, 2004


bob sarabia, are you really moving to Canada? I might join you.
posted by wsg at 9:21 AM on November 3, 2004


Jeez, why can't all the libs just lose with a smattering of dignity and grace?

Yeah, cos the Repubs lost with so much dignity in 2000
posted by dodgygeezer at 9:22 AM on November 3, 2004


Pray that the religious right gets their way.
posted by eatitlive at 9:23 AM on November 3, 2004


mathowie: I saw it. And laughed. Thanks.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 9:23 AM on November 3, 2004


Wow, I feel validated as a human being.

Or not.

OK, definately not.

Predictions:

JANUARY: The beginning of the Supreme Court appointment fights.

FEBRUARY: Bush asks for another ~$100 billion for Iraq.

MARCH: I turn 30, so the world ends. OK, if it doesn't end, it will be around this point that another tax cut is proposed. Because either we need one to stimulate the economy, or the economy is doing so well that we should give money back to the people who can spend it the best.

APRIL: Dow drops to below 8000. It will be either because of a terror strike, oil issues, the overloading of national debt, or something else. It won't be pretty, and I don't know how the non-Republicans get blamed for this one.

MAY: American soldier #2000 dies in Iraq. This could happen in March, if the current trends hold, but I am being careful here. There will be a brief mention, maybe 2 minutes on CBS and ABC news, and a poll which shows that 60% of Americans feel that we need to do "something" to fix this situation....
posted by andreaazure at 9:23 AM on November 3, 2004


I blame the gays. Without the gays there would be no homophobes. Without the homophobes the voter turn out would have been lighter.
posted by DBAPaul at 9:24 AM on November 3, 2004


Can someone tell me how 60% of new, previously unmotivated voters voted for Bush? This is a serious question, because I really can't figure out why.

God, guns and gays, baby. God, guns and gays.

I so despair for this country.
posted by snarkywench at 9:24 AM on November 3, 2004


Bush voter turnout
posted by DBAPaul at 9:25 AM on November 3, 2004


(mathowie, I saw the logo and laughed. It was appreciated.)
posted by occhiblu at 9:25 AM on November 3, 2004




What a sad day. Hatred and ignorance have won again. And we get to watch these bastards push our country farther down the fucking toilet for four more years, as they line their pockets not only with our money, but with our stolen hope.

*weeping, weeping*
posted by Kafkaesque at 9:25 AM on November 3, 2004


OK, I am off for a pitcher of G&Ts.

Goodnight everybody.

and that'sh how it wahs...
posted by erratic frog at 9:25 AM on November 3, 2004


Fuckity fuck fuck.

Thanks a lot, homophobic backwards selfish idiotic warmongering busybody bible-thumping asshole hicks of America, for pissing all over the principles the country was actually founded on. You know, that little "freedom" thing.
posted by Foosnark at 9:26 AM on November 3, 2004


Some 1.5 million people voted in Florida who did not vote last time. Of those, 900,000 went to Bush, and 600,000 to Kerry.

It starts with a D
but it ain't Democracy

D-I-E-BOLD -- DIEBOLD!
posted by namespan at 9:26 AM on November 3, 2004


This thread needs background music. I suggest 'America, FUCK YEAH! (bummer mix)'
posted by darukaru at 9:27 AM on November 3, 2004


So insomnia, do you mean the California of Nixon, Reagan and Schwarzeneggar, the California where 4.5 million people voted for Bush in 2004? The California that voted for Ron and Dick twice (even when Texas voted for Humphries), Bush Sr. in '88 and even Ford in '76? That California?
posted by loquax at 9:27 AM on November 3, 2004


It's great to see all the MeFi conservatives celebrating so gleefully. Really. Mazel tov. You won. How wonderful for you. Of course, it's not so wonderful for my almost three year old daughter. We've been at war for her entire life, and now it's going to be at least another four years before she'll know anything even slightly resembling peacetime. So, you know, thanks, for your blind support of a president who isn't making her future any better. How proud you must be.
posted by Ruki at 9:29 AM on November 3, 2004


With the GOP's leads in the House and Senate, even if Kerry won he'd have been a lame duck, which would have put the Dems off more in 2008.

I hope that Bush acts more like he did in Texas and works more to the middle rather than pander to special interests.

We should move on and look forward to what really matters, such as Pedro's filing for free agency.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:29 AM on November 3, 2004


I feel compelled to relay the same advice I gave my wife this morning: take your frustrations about all this (if you're upset about it), identify a cause or two you feel strongly about, figure out which major lobbying/527/whatever organization goes about fighting for it in ways with which you agree, then actively support it. Chances are, if you voted for Kerry (or even if you voted for Bush) there are issues like women's rights, the environment, freedom of expression, a balanced budget, etc., that will be threatened over the next four years, primarily by stacking the deck in the Supreme Court.

Clearly this country is more ideologically conservative than many of us had hoped, but this does not mean that we have to quietly give up the right to choose, the right to express ourselves, a cleaner environment, or whatever issue you feel passionate about. If you care deeply about a particular cause but disagree with the tactics of a certain organization, chances are you can find a group you feel worth supporting with your time and money. They may need it now more than ever.
posted by arco at 9:29 AM on November 3, 2004


ya, thanks for the logo thingie, mathowie - made me feel a little less like a stranger in a strange land ;-)
posted by madamjujujive at 9:31 AM on November 3, 2004


At least the Daily Show will continue to rock for the next four years.
posted by quibx at 9:31 AM on November 3, 2004


It was a very close thing, after all, and lots and lots of people voted. That is the part that makes me happy.

I remember the election of 1972 (Nixon's second term). My parents bought a TV just to watch the election returns. It was the first time I ever saw my father cry. Later, he was among the many people who adorned their cars with "Don't Blame Me, I'm From Massachusetts" stickers.

I am sad to discover that there are slightly more people in the US who disagree with me about what is really important than there are who agree with me about what is really important.

I am annoyed because now I feel like I will have to invest a great deal of energy and time in advocating for causes that are important to me (repealing the Patriot Act, ensuring access to safe and legal abortion, keeping "Jefferson's wall" in place between church and state) that I would have felt confident a Kerry administration would have advocated for.

And I certainly hope that all the votes in Ohio are counted, just because it would be terribly unfair to those people who waited in line for six hours if they weren't. Even though it's not going to change anything, I guess, it's still better to know.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:32 AM on November 3, 2004


AW FUCK

Planet of the Ape, here we come
posted by twistedonion at 9:33 AM on November 3, 2004


YAY! IT'S OVER!

I'm disappointed that Bush won, sure.

But it appears that voter turnout was remarkably high, that hijinks at the polls were minimal, and that the count is honest.

The citizens of the United States have, for better or worse, made a clear decision. That's something to celebrate, especially in comparison to the last election.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:33 AM on November 3, 2004


I vote for bloodbath.

The Democratic party has to start over from the ground up.

Liberal senators from Massachusetts are un-fucking-electable! It's amazing Kerry did as well as he did.
posted by mrhappy at 9:33 AM on November 3, 2004


I now hate America for the first time in my life. Thanks, everyone.

Don't thank everyone, just 52% of that portion that managed to vote.

I understand and share your frustration, n9, but attitudes like that have been sinking us for a while.

This just makes me sad. Clearly I don't belong to this country anymore, if I ever did

Then half the country dosen't belong here either. Pull yourself together, Mary. If a squeaker of a Republican victory has you this weepy, the landslides during the Reagan years would've had you shitting yourself and committing suicide.

Fatalism is a luxury we can't afford.
posted by jonmc at 9:34 AM on November 3, 2004


No seriously -- I'm not kidding about the Diebold thing. Read electoral-vote.com, where Tannenbaum says what I'm thinking:

"One thing that is very strange is how much the exit polls differed from the final results, especially in Ohio. Remember that Ohio uses Diebold voting machines in many areas. These machines have no paper trail. Early in the campaign, Diebold CEO Walden O'Dell, a GOP fundraiser, promised to deliver Ohio to Bush. He later regretted having said that."

First thing on *any* opposition agenda: these things have to be erased, and I mean *have to be*.
posted by namespan at 9:35 AM on November 3, 2004


And I'm going to make a t-shirt that says "I went to the polls, and all I got was this lousy President" on it.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:35 AM on November 3, 2004


If there was real democracy, California would form its own state. We've had enough of this tyranny of the majority crap, and we're tired of the fact that the only presidents that the whole nation can accept have to be members of the Country Bear Jamboree

Does that include your Govern-ator? Moderate, socially liberal Republican - yes - but still a member of the "jamboree team." He stood up at the convention and talked about how Bush was going to "termin-ate terra-ism!" On a county-by-county basis, California is mostly red. This is not a state-vs-state situation, it's an urban and college town vs. rural and suburban one. Hell, even here in Texas, the cities are overwhelmingly Democrat. Saying it is a state-by-state divide really paints things with too broad a brush.
posted by sixdifferentways at 9:35 AM on November 3, 2004


I don't see Hilary Clinton as a viable POTUS candidate. She is the woman that people love to hate. And Obama as running mate? Too young/new I think. Add to that his race, you get the picture.
Not to say that these things are not one day going to happen, but it just won't happen in giant stides.

Both parties need to field candidates a bit more moderate I think. I really, REALLY want to see the Republicans stop going for the GOD vote too. GOD is not an issue in a political race. Everyone in this country can worship in their own way, and I do not care to know about it.

Both parties need to start working for this country, and stop focusing on themselves so much. Nothing disgusts me more than all the bickering between parties.

I call again, for a viable 3rd party candidate. If not for POTUS, then for the house and the senate. If 3rd party candidates could start taking seats in congress, it would upset this 2 party system that has evolved into the mess we have today.

Neither candidate in this election deserved to be nominated. A giant douche and a turd sandwich just as South Park depicted.
posted by a3matrix at 9:36 AM on November 3, 2004


Has Michael Moore done Hara Kari yet?
posted by ParisParamus at 9:36 AM on November 3, 2004


And one good outcome of this for EVERYONE is that maybe:

a) people will stop listening to the damn exit polls; and
b) the media will stop trying to call the election the moment the first East Coast polls have closed.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:37 AM on November 3, 2004


Simply put, it was the candidate. Stiff, sour, serious, and desparately in need of a mass communications course. I truly believe Howard Dean would have won this election, nutty as he is. At least he had passion, expressed hope, and you knew where he stood. I'm sorry, but John Kerry was a Dud. I voted for him, but man did I wish there was a Bill Clinton or someone else who clould claim the title "A Man From Hope."

The other lesson from this (I've said it a million times here to sneers) is that Bushate does not resonate with moderate voters. It's not a platform on which to build a campaign, and you shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking that everyone feels the same way you do.
posted by pardonyou? at 9:38 AM on November 3, 2004


So the America first, flag waving jingoism and Newspeak of the Bush administration will continue for next four years. Note to the Dems, remember, never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
posted by lola at 9:38 AM on November 3, 2004


And I'm going to make a t-shirt that says "I went to the polls, and all I got was this lousy President" on it.

I'll buy one. But I would buy one regardless of who won.
posted by a3matrix at 9:38 AM on November 3, 2004


Chilling perspective on things Ruki. How depressing...

I bet young celebrating republicans parents are preparing their offsprings for war (it certainly is part of the celebration) -- because they DO put your money were there mouths are, dont they?

We'll keep a tab on them -- we wouldn't want them to be un-patriotic because they forgot, that would be a disaster.
posted by NewBornHippy at 9:38 AM on November 3, 2004


If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

So I'm looking for a group of people whose lifestyle I don't like and I'm going to work hard to deny them their basic rights. Woo-hoo! This is kinda fun.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 9:38 AM on November 3, 2004


[this is terrible]
posted by moift at 9:39 AM on November 3, 2004


Wait, you people are unhappy? Metafilter is a liberal hangout? SAY IT ISN'T SO!
posted by psychotic_venom at 9:39 AM on November 3, 2004


Thank you pardoyou? I believe you have captured my sentiments accurately.
posted by a3matrix at 9:39 AM on November 3, 2004


The Democrats are so over. And the implications of that are mind boggling.
posted by Fupped Duck at 9:39 AM on November 3, 2004


I feel compelled to relay the same advice I gave my wife this morning: take your frustrations about all this (if you're upset about it), identify a cause or two you feel strongly about, figure out which major lobbying/527/whatever organization goes about fighting for it in ways with which you agree, then actively support it. Chances are, if you voted for Kerry (or even if you voted for Bush) there are issues like women's rights, the environment, freedom of expression, a balanced budget, etc., that will be threatened over the next four years, primarily by stacking the deck in the Supreme Court.

Clearly this country is more ideologically conservative than many of us had hoped, but this does not mean that we have to quietly give up the right to choose, the right to express ourselves, a cleaner environment, or whatever issue you feel passionate about. If you care deeply about a particular cause but disagree with the tactics of a certain organization, chances are you can find a group you feel worth supporting with your time and money. They may need it now more than ever.


I couldn't agree more. Take a day to mourn, or however you deal with this and get constructive. Get involved in both of your party local primaries (if legal in your state), not to poison the well, but so that we, as Americans, have the best of both worlds to pick from. If you are unhappy with the way things are going, try to change them. Reach out across party lines and try to connect. Bridge the gap. If (like me) you think many people just don't understand many politician's stances on issues and are easily manipulated, try to educate them w/out being an ass. Don't just get pissed off and moan. Do something.

You have to keep trying.
posted by dig_duggler at 9:39 AM on November 3, 2004


pardonyou? -- I couldn't agree more.
posted by psychotic_venom at 9:40 AM on November 3, 2004


Can someone tell me how 60% of new, previously unmotivated voters voted for Bush?

Undoubtedly they heard that the Democrats were making a big push to beat them, and decided that this year would be a good year to make sure they went to the polls.
posted by kindall at 9:42 AM on November 3, 2004


This thread needs background music. I suggest 'America, FUCK YEAH! (bummer mix)'

Here you go. And if you need the original...
posted by mathowie at 9:42 AM on November 3, 2004


Or invest in Halliburton.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 9:42 AM on November 3, 2004


Ok, here's some gallows fun for the whole family.

What's the next four years gonna look like?

Obviously:
* Permanent repeal of the estate tax
* Permanent tax-cuts
* At least one young Republican Supreme Court justice
* At least partial privatization of Social Security

And perhaps:
* Overturning Roe v. Wade
* Ban on flag-burning
* Public school prayer ("quiet time")
* Something bad with teh gay

And just possibly:
* Iraqi elections go Fuck-Shit, chaos and civil war ensues
* Nuclear Stand-off / invasion with North Korea
* Da Draft (rename to something nicer, like the Patriotism Unleashes Strength, Solidarity, and Yunity act.)

Did I miss anything?
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:43 AM on November 3, 2004


If a squeaker of a Republican victory has you this weepy, the landslides during the Reagan years would've had you shitting yourself and committing suicide.

Barring 2000, this was the closest election since 1976.

The Democrats are so over. And the implications of that are mind boggling.

The Democrats somehow survived Reagan/Bush I, and the Republicans somehow survived Clinton. Two-party politics isn't going away in America--or moving forward, either.
posted by DaShiv at 9:43 AM on November 3, 2004


Clearly this country is more ideologically conservative than many of us had hoped, but this does not mean that we have to quietly give up the right to choose, the right to express ourselves, a cleaner environment, or whatever issue you feel passionate about.

Arco, you left out Civil Rights. Here's the one issue where the Democrats are more in touch with most Americans than the Republicans. How would the gay marriage debate have been different if Dems had stood up for the Right to Marry as an essential civil liberty? Instead we got a sophistic defense of the separate-but-equal "civil unions."
posted by eatitlive at 9:44 AM on November 3, 2004


From the electoral-vote.com site:

Again, if you are a senior majoring in computer science and are seriously thinking of leaving the country due to the election results, you might be interested in my international English-language Masters program in parallel and distributed computer systems. If you are a faculty member in computer science, I would be very grateful if you would go to that Website and download and print the poster (a PDF file) and pin it to a bulletin board where potential students might see it and mention it in any classes you teach to CS seniors. Thank you.

I found that rather amusing in a funny way. Jus' sayin.
posted by Mossy at 9:44 AM on November 3, 2004


My form of protest is to wear black. We're mourning the death of our nation's democracy, wear mourning clothes.

Wear black and let's start making the preperations to come back stronger, better and with a clearer message to the populance.

Of course, with four more years and no re-election issues to worry about, Bush may just blow us all to hell before then.

Its a sad, sad day. But let's look forward and start planning for next time. Giving in is the same as quitting and quitting means those bastards win.
posted by fenriq at 9:44 AM on November 3, 2004


YAY ... it's nice to know that 50% of the population is actually dumber than average.

Now is the time for the ultra right to put up or shut up.
I want to see those constitutional ammendmensts to ban gay marriage an make sure wimmin folk have them babies!

remember ... It's a punishment from GAWD ... not a child or a choice.
posted by Dillenger69 at 9:45 AM on November 3, 2004


Has Michael Moore done Hara Kari yet?

One of the reasons I was convinced Bush would win is that Moore is a total fucking jinx. Just look at any issue he's touched - every single one has got worse since he documented it. I'd be glad to be contradicted.
posted by dodgygeezer at 9:45 AM on November 3, 2004


Has Michael Moore done Hara Kari yet?

I love the way the wingnuts act as though a Republican victory makes liberals melt into goo or something. John Kerry is still a millionaire Senator. Michael Moore is still going to make high-grossing films. It's like you can't be satisfied Bush won because no one is actually suffering as a result.

If it make you feel better, we'll have tons of time to torture people now, though. You likey the rough stuff, don't you?
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 9:45 AM on November 3, 2004


How soon until the United States is a theocracy?
posted by four panels at 9:46 AM on November 3, 2004


From the NYTM Suskind article a couple of weeks ago:
"I'm going to come out strong after my swearing in," Bush said, "with fundamental tax reform, tort reform, privatizing of Social Security." The victories he expects in November, he said, will give us "two years, at least, until the next midterm. We have to move quickly, because after that, I'l be quacking like a duck."
posted by muckster at 9:47 AM on November 3, 2004


God, I go to sleep (finally) last night, and wake up to find they're not even going to count the votes??? This is very fucked, to put it lightly.

And if NYC's a radioactive crater at the end of these next 4 years (which is now more and more likely), i hope you people all happy about this remember us.
posted by amberglow at 9:47 AM on November 3, 2004


four panels: I foresee a theocracy in Minus Four years from now.


Also, the next four years will bring a new golden age of punk rock. I don't mean the prefab muppets-with-amps shit we've been hearing on the radio for the last decade, but the real thing. And not just punk, but hip hop, jazz, every genre of music (and art in general, we can only hope) is going to start producing a little more dangerous stuff. People who were ignored yesterday will get heard in other ways.

I'd rather it didn't have to be like this, but hey, silver lining.
posted by chicobangs at 9:47 AM on November 3, 2004


Sal - Be sad for us. Seriously. I need a hug, badly.

*hugs* fillsthepews
posted by salmacis at 9:48 AM on November 3, 2004


democracy is a difficult proposition. it's easy to participate when everything goes your way. if you quit when things don't, then you really don't believe in democracy, you like benevolent oligarchies that endorse your views.

people like the president. alot. they forgive his mistakes, or deny them, because of this. he is giving them what they want. if you don't happen to want the same things, reread my first paragraph. then remember, poverty is a choice. national health care is a choice. social liberty is a choice. tax rates are a choice. peace is a choice. you don't like other people's choices. what else is new?
posted by ewkpates at 9:49 AM on November 3, 2004


I now can hear Wall Street salivating over Social Security, wild like hyenas.
posted by four panels at 9:50 AM on November 3, 2004


I love the way the wingnuts act as though a Republican victory makes liberals melt into goo or something.

Well, all the weepy, I'm moving to Canada/My life is over/America hates me boo-hoo isn't doing a lot to counter that impression (yours and a few others commets notwithstanding), is it?

I'm just gonna fininsh my workday, drown my frustrations in a few beers after work and then go back to speaking my mind.
posted by jonmc at 9:50 AM on November 3, 2004


I knew I picked the wrong year to quit drinking.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:51 AM on November 3, 2004


Wear black and let's start making the preparations to come back stronger, better and with a clearer message to the populance.

Fenriq, I don't mean to single you out, and I do ask this out of ignorance - how many people bemoaning kerry's loss did more than just vote or blog about it? Any volunteers? Kerry organizers? Electoral officials? Large donators? It's fine and good to wish the DNC gets its act together, but in my books, you need to do more than just vote before you have the credibility required to talk about this election the way many people are today. If you're seriously thinking of leaving the country but were watching the election on TV last night, you need to re-examine either your priorities or your thought process.
posted by loquax at 9:53 AM on November 3, 2004


Where can I find one of these benevolent oligarchies?
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 9:53 AM on November 3, 2004


What you see is what you get
You've made your bed, you better lie in it
You choose your leaders and place your trust
As their lies wash you down and their promises rust
You'll see kidney machines replaced by rockets and guns
And the public wants what the public gets
But I don't get what this society wants
I'm going underground...
posted by scody at 9:54 AM on November 3, 2004


don't despair too much...after all, if you guys are ever on the verge of being taken over by another country, we'll still jump in and save your asses.
Unless, of course, we're on the verge of taking it over. If Bush can unjustly and unilaterally leverage the US military once, why stop with Afghanistan and Iraq? I hear Korea is nice this time of year...
posted by travis at 9:56 AM on November 3, 2004


Thanks, scody. One of my favorite songs from way back in my skater/punk days in the early Reagan era.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 9:57 AM on November 3, 2004


You'll never lose money underestimating the intelligence of the American people. - H.L. Mencken
posted by wsg at 9:57 AM on November 3, 2004


What a glorious day! Thank God we didn't get Kerry. The mainstream media and places like this become such an echo chamber of liberal platitudes it's somewhat amusing to watch the startled reaction when reality and context intrude.
posted by paleocon at 9:58 AM on November 3, 2004


Yunity. Heh.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 9:58 AM on November 3, 2004


And all the smug bastards around me gloating right now make me want to firebomb something.

See, that's just not it. I can only imagine how much more awful this would be if I were still working at one of my old jobs, where people thought wearing a shirt and tie to work meant you were white collar, but you have to let that bile go. It doesn't matter who gets elected if it always going to be that divisive. Which is why I'm so excited about the Republicans holding the presidency, House and Senate. You're depressed now? Wait until we need a new Supreme Court justice.

Fuck me. This was supposed to be a sort of Pandora's Box hopefullness message and I just depressed myself. Suffice it to say it will never be as awful as predicted here, what with the Yeats and the end of the nation and the we're doomed.
posted by yerfatma at 9:59 AM on November 3, 2004


how many people bemoaning kerry's loss did more than just vote or blog about it?

I did! Except for the bemoaning part. I went to the DNC, registered people to vote, told Howard Dean a few things about technology in Vermont, and told people Kerry wasn't a total asshole when he was my Senator in Massachusetts. I voted for a Democrat in my town who won by TWO VOTES to her Republican challenger. I gave the EFF and the ACLU a little money. Can I complain now? Even with the Dems in office it's still been a bitter fight to get anything reasonable done for the poor, the atheists, the hungry or even the rich white gay folks. It was a fight, it is a fight and it continues to be a fight. Arco -- my fellow librarian -- is right on the money, consistent civic engagement is a wonderful thing.
posted by jessamyn at 10:02 AM on November 3, 2004


If anyone wants to know why the Left lost this election, all they have to do is read this thread.


Everyone's fault, but your own.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 10:02 AM on November 3, 2004


It's not really so much about four more years of Bush as it is four more years of Rummy, Asscroft, Cheney, etc. At least it will keep Will Ferrell busy. When's Elf coming out on DVD anyway?
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 10:03 AM on November 3, 2004


Those who voted for Bush can do no wrong. They support the president because he can do no wrong. America can do no wrong. It's that simple and that ignorant.
posted by disgruntled at 10:03 AM on November 3, 2004


The other lesson from this (I've said it a million times here to sneers) is that Bushate does not resonate with moderate voters.

Since gay hate clearly does resonate with extremist voters to the tune of a few million votes, the task of building an inclusive platform escapes me at the moment. I mean, it's not like meeting Evangelicals half-way at the second trimester is going to work.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 10:04 AM on November 3, 2004


Yeah, Steve. I'm seeing so many posts blaming others, like the one right above yours.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 10:04 AM on November 3, 2004


Just to point out--no Republican has won nationwide in a problem-free election since 1988. 2004 has *not* been a clean, problem-free election.

There has not been a Republican landslide since 1984.

U.S. is still split right down the middle, nothing has changed there. Blame whoever for not having a winning strategy, but we are *not* seeing a huge movement of people to the dark side. This is "same old, same old", it sucks, but it is not a sea change by any means.
posted by gimonca at 10:04 AM on November 3, 2004


I'm 18, I voted for Kerry, and Bush getting elected just fucked me over. Remember the good old days when the dollar was actually worth something outside of the US?
posted by Veritron at 10:05 AM on November 3, 2004


Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.
posted by Cyrano at 10:06 AM on November 3, 2004


Thank You American Voters!
posted by naxosaxur at 10:06 AM on November 3, 2004


McCain/Blackwell, McCain/Voinavich, or McCain/Portman

Ohio will be on the ticket, you heard it here first.
posted by Mick at 10:07 AM on November 3, 2004


Well shit, we'll still keep counting the fucking votes, won't we?

I want to know if his concession means they
won't count the Ohio votes eleven days from now.


Don't forget there are other races to be considered.

Predictions?

This "popular mandate" will allow the Republicans to continue to polarize the country into The Haves and Have Nots while the fundamentalists will push their agenda of religiousizing the American Government. Results: more disillusioned Americans will turn away from the Republican party.

Expect to see:
More old people freezing in their homes when they don't get their federal aid.
More people starving in the streets when they lose their jobs.
More pregnant teenagers who discover that Abstinance Only is not the best form of birth control.
More people dying of tainted meat because the FDA's budget has been cut.
More deformed children being born because mercury levels are allowed to rise.
More people getting cancer because The Superfund no longer exists to clean up abandoned chemical dumps.
More gay-bashing.
More abandoned babies when women find their access to birth control pills, day after pills, and abortions, becoming more restricted.

Do I need to continue?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:08 AM on November 3, 2004


dand: Yeah, Republican house/senate are problably burning up to impeach a Republican President.

Yes, I'm glad to see that you recognize your boys are going to get off scot free -- and especially that Karl Rove won't be prosecuted for the felony outing of a serving intelligence officer, and Republican thugs won't be prosecuted for violations of the voting rights act. I'm sure that all makes you chortle with glee.
posted by lodurr at 10:08 AM on November 3, 2004


Has Michael Moore done Hara Kari yet?

No Paris, because guess what, Bush is going to do it to the entire country.

I hope you're still gloating when we're ass deep in the implementation of the PNAC's mad vision and Grover Norquist's plan to drown government in its own bathwater. "FOUR MORE YEARS" -- of government becoming, slowly, nothing but a political and military machine. That's the vision, right? Only "defense". Glad you support it, Paris.
posted by namespan at 10:08 AM on November 3, 2004


Jessamyn, exactly, I totally agree with you. I wonder how many people on either side really internalize that. Politics isn't a spectator sport. Voting is for the masses. If you truly are impassioned and believe that you are right, you have no excuse for not working for what you want to achieve, as opposed to just wishing for it.

Again, not accusing anyone in particular, I just get the feeling that active campaign workers are in the minority here
posted by loquax at 10:09 AM on November 3, 2004


... Grover Norquist's plan to drown government in its own bathwater.

At some point it's going to dawn on a lot of those people that life as we know it in America -- including the sweet ride that corporations get -- is dependent on "big government."

Either that, or Norquist's corpse will be chucked out with that very bathwater once he's outlived his uselessness...
posted by lodurr at 10:10 AM on November 3, 2004


loquax, no worries, I don't mind being singled out when the discourse is polite and actually trying to find something out instead of just baiting.

I did more than just vote and blog about it. I took part in our local Kerry campaign group. I could have done more and wish I had been able to do more. Next time, I will be able to do more and will.

I've just been thinking, perhaps we need to start a program to move the intelligentsia in the nation back into those rural areas in the south and midwest, repopulate them with thinking voters rather than reactionary queer hatin' voters.
posted by fenriq at 10:11 AM on November 3, 2004


Did I miss anything?

Total Economic Collapse
* currency implosion
* oil shock
* climate-based population migration
* erasure of the middle class
* Starbucks continues to expand, mostly in China

Also, what chicobangs said.
posted by mwhybark at 10:13 AM on November 3, 2004


I've never been so happy not to live in the US before.
posted by tcp at 10:13 AM on November 3, 2004


I believe he will actually run (somewhat) to the center to preserve his legacy. Now that he can't be re-elected...

Ahem.
posted by lodurr at 10:14 AM on November 3, 2004


Here are my thoughts on the election. First up, :( . 2nd, hanging out here and reading other like-minded blogs and websites on the internet(s) has given me the wrong impression of my fellow Americans. I thought there were a lot more people in this country who cared about the issues Civil_Disobedient brought up than those who will applaud and approve the continued erosion of our civil liberties, the ongoing war against a country to secure its assets for our use despite the cost in personnel and dollars and the continued tax breaks for the rich and big business. But I was wrong. America has spoken and I hate what it has said. I hate what that shows the rest of the world about us. My only consolation is that MonkeyBoy and his gang can only get four more years.
posted by Lynsey at 10:14 AM on November 3, 2004


I survived Nixon. I survived Reagan. With the help of... ... ... nah, who needs that, I'll survive Bush, too.

America: please don't make the baby quonsar cry...
posted by zaelic at 10:14 AM on November 3, 2004


Is it okay to slap anyone who pulls the old hackneyed "I'm moving to Canada" bit?
posted by dhoyt at 10:14 AM on November 3, 2004


I've just been thinking, perhaps we need to start a program to move the intelligentsia in the nation back into those rural areas in the south and midwest, repopulate them with thinking voters rather than reactionary queer hatin' voters.

fenriq, that's going to require more than $8/hr jobs in rural areas, and frankly, that's not on the republican agenda.
posted by namespan at 10:17 AM on November 3, 2004


I'm moving to Britain.

No, wait. I already live here.
posted by salmacis at 10:18 AM on November 3, 2004


Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.
posted by four panels at 10:19 AM on November 3, 2004


There's a couple of people up there who have said that 50% of the American people are stupid. I hate to tell you, but it's more like 80%.

What turn out did you get? 40% maybe? And half of them voted to get rid of Bush? Guess what, that means that the other half of the turn out, and the entire of the rest of the country all voted for the chimp.

Consider that, Kerry supporters... 80% of your fellow countrymen decided to go with a warmonger over a flip-floper.

The problem is that this isn't kept to your shores. if you kept your toys in your own back yard then I couldn't give a damn what you do or who you have elected. In the grand scheme of things, four years is bollocks all in technology or medical research or the environment. I don't give a damn. If you don't want medical research then another country will take over. If your country is too religiously motivated to help people at high risk of AIDS, then fuck off and we'll do it for you.

But, you know what? Your toys don't stay in your yard. They are spread across the world, putting us all at risk.

I can't wait for March when Mr Blair gets his arse out of #10 and we, at least, have some fucking sanity back...
posted by twine42 at 10:19 AM on November 3, 2004


Actually, from a cultural perspective, this is a good thing. Having something or someone to hate always breeds better art and more awareness.

See, Bush winning is really a victory no matter what side you were on!
posted by psychotic_venom at 10:22 AM on November 3, 2004


Trust me sunshine, when we stick out fingers, you'll know it.... and hey, it was a close race but you lump all americans into some collective and then you wish the "rest of the world" would do the same (finger waving)...gee, your bright.

GLOAT FUCKING GLOAT BABY Because this is the most powerful presidency, barring General Washington, the world has ever seen. We control the Senate, the Executive, Congress and soon the "Supremes"... we have a majority of republicans as governors.


Thank you. You have officially identified yourself as a dangerous sociopath, unworthy of being saved from drowning or to be given a drink in the desert. Have a nice day.
posted by lodurr at 10:23 AM on November 3, 2004


namespan, I know that they won't make it easy to unseat them. And I don't know if moving back to the sticks is the way to win but I feel like we need to do everything, literally everything to not allow this crap to happen again.

The next four years should be busy ones for the Democrats. We should be honing our skills and getting ready for 2008.

I'm pissed off but resolute. This isn't the end, its just another stopping point along the trail. The path got steeper and slipperier but I'm still willing and able to keep struggling to climb it.
posted by fenriq at 10:24 AM on November 3, 2004


I have to say, I'm disappointed. I really had hope that Americans would not give in to their fear and ignorance, and bring the lesser evil in. I'm glad all our conservative friends here are such gracious winners. Very classy.

So, can anyone (on either side, but I'd love to hear from our Bush-backers) help me find an upside here?

Anyone?
posted by majcher at 10:24 AM on November 3, 2004


dhoyt: please slap me a bunch of times, because Vancouver is looking awfully pretty today.
posted by Mars Saxman at 10:25 AM on November 3, 2004


>U.S. is still split right down the middle, nothing has changed there.

Yep. There's no mandate or anything of the sort.

In hindsight the democrats should have pushed only southern democrats to run as the US is too conservative and mired in its own domestic culture war to put a northerner in the executive branch.
posted by skallas at 10:26 AM on November 3, 2004


Who does that "America (Fuck Yeah)" song?
posted by kenko at 10:27 AM on November 3, 2004


It's not the "same old, same old" It's an administration that has the numbers in congress to move an agenda and just as Reagan needed the reagan democrats, we need the moderate Republicans to rein that agenda in and try to at least keep it centralist.
posted by mss at 10:28 AM on November 3, 2004


But, keep up the paternalism and veiled threats, non-Americans, if that's how you think you can influence this or any administration.

This non-American has no interest in influencing the Bush administration at all. Instead, I have been sending out a small army of e-mails this morning to cancel as many contracts as possible with American companies and move them to Canadian or European equivalents. I am also relocating my family reunion, which was supposed to take place in the US in a few weeks.

It will take some time and a serious re-evaluation of my spending habits, but I will do everything I can not to give a single dollar to the theocratic United States. I encourage other appalled 'foreigners' to do the same.
posted by jess at 10:29 AM on November 3, 2004


Vancouver is pretty beautiful....but not in a "Waaah, things didn't go my way, I'm leaving!!" kind of way...
posted by dhoyt at 10:29 AM on November 3, 2004


Is it okay to slap anyone who pulls the old hackneyed "I'm moving to Canada" bit?

Absolutely.
posted by jon_kill at 10:30 AM on November 3, 2004


I could go for Starbucks right now, actually.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 10:30 AM on November 3, 2004


majcher, the assault weapons ban has expired so now we can violently overthrow the government with higher powered weapons than before.

That's about the only upside I can see.
posted by fenriq at 10:31 AM on November 3, 2004


Who does that "America (Fuck Yeah)" song?
The South Park guys. From 'Team America'.
posted by darukaru at 10:32 AM on November 3, 2004


Mathowie, thank you for the mp3s. I needed that laugh.
posted by Alison at 10:33 AM on November 3, 2004


dhoyt: please slap me a bunch of times, because Vancouver is looking awfully pretty today.

Mars, I'm saying this in the spirit of freindly advice, don't be such a pussy.

Bush won by an extremely narrow margin. Even in some of the states where he won, Kerry made respectable showings, and/or Democratic senators and governors were elected.

Yeah, I would've been much happier if Kerry had won, but that's the way it goes. This is not Reagan slaughtering Mondale of Bush running roughshod over Dukakis. This tells me that even though we didn't go all the way, we're still in this. I'm not ready to write my country off yet.
posted by jonmc at 10:34 AM on November 3, 2004


I don't think wearing black is really going to help much as a message. I wear black a lot of the time anyway - it's slimming!

I'd like to see the ultimate vote counts, but, ultimately, Bush won the election, he's president. I think there are going to be serious long term negative effects, but whining and denial won't do any good.

Keep in mind, *if* we're all right and Bush is going to drive us downhill, then it'll be more obvious, but not yet insurmountable in four years, and the Republican party will not be able to run with an incumbent. If you can't wait four years, work on the two-year midterm Congressional elections and try to break the party lock there. (I think Congress could use more independents...)

This sort of hysteria is why I always go to bed early on Election night. I figure at that point, I've voted and encouraged everyone around me to vote, I've done what I can to influence things, and it's time to let go.

Oh, I'm also bummed that my brother lost the local election he ran in, but I'm not going to go out egging opposition houses in his county or anything.
posted by Karmakaze at 10:36 AM on November 3, 2004


This will be a day long remembered . . . It has seen the end of Kenobi, and it will soon see the end of the rebellion.

*oohhhhh-pahhh*
posted by petebest at 10:38 AM on November 3, 2004


so what's the big deal with all this anti abortion mess? i thought fetuses aren't even human? they're like pink footballs, with heads. throw'em around if you want.
posted by lotsofno at 10:38 AM on November 3, 2004


to all the folks saddened by this and wishing to give up and move to canada:

rosa parks stayed in her seat.
gandhi didn't eat.
MLK kept marching.
nine black students showed up for class in little rock in '57.
that guy in tiananmen square kept standing in front of the tank.

when you give up, nothing gets better. just saying. i'm staying.
posted by caution live frogs at 10:38 AM on November 3, 2004


Everyone's fault, but your own.

Stevie, it's funny how first you shit all over the place with childish gloating in all-caps, then you suddendly get all serious with this holier-than-thou trademark linnwoodian BS.

do you mean that it's... MetaFilter's fault if Kerry lost?

even for somebody in your IQ area, that's a bit much, Stevie.

you can seriously "blame" many groups/individuals -- blame NH and Iowa Democratic primary voters, blame Kerry and Shrum and Cahill, blame the Swift Boat Liars and those dumb enough (or in bad faith enough) to believe them

or, one can simply decide that Rove and Bush managed to create a big, big coalition of usually more moderate/indifferent people scared shitless of the terrahists who famously plan to attack Ohio + gay-hating fundys who finally smell Roe vs Wade's blood + generally right-wing people who like to see America show her muscles

truth is simple. blaming MetaFilter's lefties who always make of you can certainly do wonders for your onanistic activities, so go ahead.

clav, Mick et al who dream about a possible McCain candidacy: he'll be 72 and a half by the time he'd be sworn in, he's had a rough 7 years in VietNam while Republican chickenhawks were hiding back home so who knows what shape he'll be in, in 2008.
plus, Bush told us in 2000's primaries that McCain is crazy and had a black kid out of wedlock and his wife's on drugs and he likes fags. so he'll never be nominated.

Jebby's there, waiting to get the nomination's that rightfully his.
Bushie the Third.
Empires also have royal families, you know.

after 8 years of Jebby who knows, Jenna and Barbara will quit drinking, discover Jesus, and run in pair for the presidency.

;)

___________

So, can anyone (on either side, but I'd love to hear from our Bush-backers) help me find an upside here?

Anyone?


the Democrats get a more pragmatic spirit, drop dead-dog, loser issues like guns (America loves them, live with it) and gay marriage (America, like God, hates Fags, didn't you see the referenda this year?). they start nominate working-class Southerners who have never been to Europe and have bad table manners and love NASCAR and shoot guns.

oh, liberals should learn a lesson from Protestant fundys --they were a big zero when they were jerking off in the corner of America's public life, they decided to play politics for real, hijacked a big Party and now own the Justice Department and the SCOTUS and they'll have Roe vs Wade's head on a platter.

if the party and the liberals learn the lesson of post-911, post-Rove America, they'll be home free. America is mainly a Eisenhower Republican country. the neocons aren't Eisenhower Republicans, nor are Cheney and GWBush. Clinton, on the other hand, was an Eisenhower Republican, and a successful one.

at this point US liberals can decide: be the left's Christian Fundys, eat some crow and vote for a guy you don't like very much but then you'll play kingmaker and win the Justice Department and the SCOTUS.
or vote Nader, watch a lot of Michael Moore's movies, feel good about yourself and learn to live in a Forever-GOPped America

also, you can nominate Hillary and Obama, like it a lot, and have a Mondale-like (or McGovern-like) success
posted by matteo at 10:38 AM on November 3, 2004


Amen, jonmc. That's where I'm coming out on this as well. Btw, who TF is calling this a "mandate"? I seem to recall from when Reagan ran against Mondale that it was called a mandate if you received more than 55% of the popular vote and a landslide in the electoral college. That's far from the case here, or has this president managed to lower the bar on yet another standard?

Btw, with the fundies in charge, look for "man-dates" to be outlawed in the next couple of years. ;-)
posted by psmealey at 10:40 AM on November 3, 2004


matteo, you're sounding like a more literate, European version of me here. I'm worried.
posted by jonmc at 10:41 AM on November 3, 2004


I moved to California, and thought that was enough.

matteo is right.
posted by namespan at 10:41 AM on November 3, 2004


YAY ... it's nice to know that 50% of the population is actually dumber than average.

51%. Only in America. ;)
posted by abcde at 10:44 AM on November 3, 2004


Oh, and did you hear? Karzai wins in Afghanistan.

Sure didn't take very long for the dominoes to start dropping.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 10:44 AM on November 3, 2004


I get the feeling this is going to be very different from the Reagan/Bush years--which i spent burying whole crowds of my friends and hustling for work. (Or maybe it'll be just like that again, but for different reasons?)

And good for you, jess--money talks, and i think we'll be seeing a lot more of what you're doing--except that it probably hurts us workers more than the bosses--they can always offshore, and definitely will, in increasing numbers.

I'd like some Bush supporters to tell us how they envision the next 4 years--economy, foreign policy, social services, etc.
posted by amberglow at 10:45 AM on November 3, 2004


Mandate:
"With a bigger majority, we can do even more exciting things," House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, a Texas Republican, told a local television station in his state

"It really is monumental. Nobody expected that. It is huge," Frist told CNN, describing the election results as "a huge endorsement of the president of the United States."

At least that sounds like the claim
posted by mss at 10:48 AM on November 3, 2004


So, can anyone (on either side, but I'd love to hear from our Bush-backers) help me find an upside here?

Bush and the Republicans will get the credit and/or blame they deserve for the results of their policies.

The next four years should be busy ones for the Democrats. We should be honing our skills and getting ready for 2008.

Democrats need to first do some long, hard soul-searching about their fundamental problem: most candidates who are liberal enough to get the party's nomination are too liberal to win the general election.1 For example, I'm convinced that Evan Bayh2 would be an excellent candidate for 2008, but I fear he's too "moderate" to win the Democratic nomination. I would love to be proved wrong, but for that to happen the liberal wing of the party needs to recognize they may have to compromise their principles to some extent in the primaries if they want to win the general election.

[1] Yes, it's true that Republicans can nominate very conservative candidates and still win the election. The situations are not symmetrical. Democrats can either gripe about how that's unfair (and keep losing), or accept it and take it into account in their strategy.
[2] Pronounced like "buy."

posted by DevilsAdvocate at 10:49 AM on November 3, 2004


This raises some questions. What happens to Kerry from here on out? Will he stand for reelection to the Senate? And what about his running mate, John Edwards? Does a near-miss like this help, or hurt?
posted by alumshubby at 10:51 AM on November 3, 2004


This tells me that even though we didn't go all the way, we're still in this.

With all due respect, give me a reality-based break. Look at how this President governed when he was installed by the Supreme Court after losing the popular vote. After four years of that, he's now won the popular vote, won the electoral college, the Republicans picked up seats and governorships, they control both houses, the Senate Democrat house leader lost, Bush gets to stack the Supreme Court, and he owes Evangelicals a much bigger debt than in 2000. In what sense are we "still in this"?
posted by Armitage Shanks at 10:53 AM on November 3, 2004


.

(And to those that say, "buck-up, pull it together, quit crying, etc.", please let us mourn today. Okay? We'll pull it together and work for a better American tomorrow. Just give us this one day.)
posted by deborah at 10:55 AM on November 3, 2004


Vancouver is looking awfully pretty today.

I was going to disagree and say it was cold and rainy but I just cracked the blinds and looked into the Big Room and, yeah, it is pretty. But keep in mind all the 'moving to Canada' types that I doubt we're going to emerge unscathed from this: the world is going to be a more dangerous place for everyone now.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 10:55 AM on November 3, 2004


..er..

America
posted by deborah at 10:57 AM on November 3, 2004


This raises some questions. What happens to Kerry from here on out? Will he stand for reelection to the Senate? And what about his running mate, John Edwards? Does a near-miss like this help, or hurt?

America hates losers. Kerry and Edwards are dead in the water.
posted by 327.ca at 10:57 AM on November 3, 2004


My form of protest is to wear black.

black hoodies
posted by jpoulos at 10:57 AM on November 3, 2004


So, DA, you're looking for "Run to the right" then?
posted by ook at 10:58 AM on November 3, 2004


In what sense are we "still in this"?

In the sense that almost half of the country is dissatisfied enough with Bush and his ideas to vote against them. We just gotta gain some of the disaffected voters who couldn't be bothered to make it decisive.

The Bush administration I've already written off, armitage. The general populace, nit yet.
posted by jonmc at 10:59 AM on November 3, 2004


>also, you can nominate Hillary and Obama

Where is this trend coming from? Kerry was a couple steps to the right of Gore and the next nominee will be even to the right, if not a stealth Republican like Wes Clark.

If the 'liberal' end of the democratic party was in charge, like you suggest, then Howard Dean would have lost (or won) last night. It looks like the dems have already learned the lesson of moderates, but unless the guy is southerner who can deliver at least one red state then there is no winning the executive branch.
posted by skallas at 10:59 AM on November 3, 2004


Evan Bayh2 would be an excellent candidate for 2008, but I fear he's too "moderate" to win the Democratic nomination.

Wesley Clark apparently had the same problem.
posted by namespan at 11:04 AM on November 3, 2004


I'm glad all our conservative friends here are such gracious winners. Very classy.

Do you honestly think that if Kerry won this would have been a group of classy, gracious winners?

This election has had so much bad blood, this type of reaction was going to come, regardless of the outcome or the reactors.
posted by dflemingdotorg at 11:04 AM on November 3, 2004


Meanwhile, blackbox voting makes freedom of information act requests, one of the biggest barrage of them in history. This makes me feel good. In fact, if you start to see republicans denouncing it, pay very, very close attention.
posted by namespan at 11:07 AM on November 3, 2004


Do you honestly think that if Kerry won this would have been a group of classy, gracious winners?

Yes, actually. I'm pretty sure it would. Next question?
posted by lodurr at 11:08 AM on November 3, 2004


CNN's exit polls (bottom of linked page) reveal a hint about how Bush won. 6% of Republicans voted for Kerry, but 11% of Democrats voted for Bush. And this after numerous reports of "Kerry Republicans." Seems there were more "Bush Democrats" than anyone expected.

That means just under 2% of voters were Democrats voting for Bush when they "should have" been voting for Kerry. 37% (proportion of Democrats voting) * 5% (difference between Republican 6% crossover and Democrat 11% crosover) = 1.85% total voters. If those voters had voted for Kerry rather than Bush, Kerry would have won the popular vote. I don't really have the time or the inclination to dig into state-by-state data, but depending on how those voters were distributed, it's possible he would have won the EC too.

If Democrats want to win, they have to learn to stick together. The Republicans know what it means to belong to a political party. It means you get behind your party's guy even if you don't agree 100% with the candidate.
posted by kindall at 11:09 AM on November 3, 2004


.

No, wait, I would dearly like to postpone comment until this pounding in my skull stops.

mr_crash_davis wins. No, wait, salmacis wins. No, wait, it's too close to call! *quietude*

I'll bemoan the results a little while but I woke up this morning trying to process the lessons learned. I don't think they're the ones people are discussing above, at least not so clearly. I'll probably post them over in the Keys to the White House thread later today -- because that system (used correctly) was right. In short, the GOP came into '04 with a solid enough record combined with a long-forgotten level of party discipline. That wins elections.
posted by dhartung at 11:10 AM on November 3, 2004


What Armitage said. We haven't run a real liberal since Mondale. Do we have to run Jeb Bush?

We have less power and influence today than yesterday. No GOP legislation is going to be stopped now, not by the House, the Senate, or even the Supreme Court. Anything they want they can ram thru now, and there's nothing we can do.

And we certainly don't have the media as a check or balance anymore.
posted by amberglow at 11:12 AM on November 3, 2004


Everyone's upset, and I don't blame you. I'm hoping that tomorrow or in a week's time you'll go from thinking to how much it sucks to thinking about ways to make it less sucky.

Come on, people, you lost the battle. Not the war.
posted by orange swan at 11:12 AM on November 3, 2004


In the sense that almost half of the country is dissatisfied enough with Bush and his ideas to vote against them. We just gotta gain some of the disaffected voters who couldn't be bothered to make it decisive.

Deja vu anyone?

If half the country had voted against Bush then he would be packing up right now. The fact is they didn't. More of them stayed at home than bothered to turn out to vote against him. The Democrats were moribund of anything worthwhile to offer, particularly of someone worthwhile to vote for. They have nothing.
posted by biffa at 11:14 AM on November 3, 2004


This day started out as pretty depressing to me, but I have to say I'm starting to feel better. It does SUCK MOST HEINOUSLY that Bush was re-elected, but at least now we know where the majority of (voting) America stands and we need to figure out how to reconnect with people who are currently voting Republican.

I've had a couple of enlightening conversations today with some people who voted for Bush and explained what they felt was wrong with Kerry. I disagree with them, but it was very interesting to get their point of view.

jessamyn's and others' comments above have helped me feel much better - this is an ongoing fight and we need to regroup and figure out how to spread our message of tolerance and civil liberties in a way that the more moderate (at least) of the religious right can agree with.

I have just donated to ACLU and Love Makes A Family, causes close to my heart. I urge all of you who are feeling disheartened to do the same. Don't give up - this is YOUR country you're fighting for!
posted by widdershins at 11:16 AM on November 3, 2004


just, fyi, I *am* an american. and I'm allowed to hate this place as much as I want.

How in the hell am I supposed to feel about all those ignorant, stupid, holy people who voted 'against fags?' You give me a better word than hate and I'll take it.

My father in law is laughing it up today because his boy is in. I wonder how he'll feel when we have no socialized medecine or elder care and I can't afford to take care of him because he and his had to have their f*cking tax reduction/prolife/anti-homosexual/warpigs? I hope all of you who voted for bush have the best 4 years of your lives -- because at this rate things will certainly be going downhill fast.
posted by n9 at 11:16 AM on November 3, 2004


Can I just caution, for a second, against all the pull our socks up and get on with the struggle talk for a second, just from a mental and emotional health standpoint. If you've had your heart in this thing for a while, you have be sad and ragey for a little while and accept that we don't live in the country we all thought or hoped we did. Grief over this mongolian clusterfuck has to be acknowledged and dealt with otherwise bitterness and apathy are sure to follow.

Everyone who can, please take their heads out of the election for a minute and sob and get drunk or whatever and just read a book or hang out with your kids or pets or friends. Shit.

Then get really really mad and motivated and really really into local and state politics. I'ma get into the working families party and make Pataki pay in blood when his time comes.

But first I'm going to get some extra-sleep and then take a rocking 10 pound post-election poop.

(On preview: deborah, I give you this one day, kiddo, drink some fresh juice and hug somebody.)

Oh also: Come on with that fuck America shit, where do you all live: Alternate universe perfect democracy no racsim no antisematism neverneverland SwedenCanada? We're having a hard time, take out the knives next week. Little European/Candadian Homegenious populations need to wrap their heads around a lot more real life situations before they come out their faces at the hell we have over here. Slightly more or less than 50% of our voting population just has a wildly divergent idea about what is decent and reasonable in human behavior.

Confidential to OBL et Al: Can the next one PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be in a red state that doesn't have a large vibrant mix of ethnicities, religions and philosophys that still manages to mostly get along?
thx in advance.

PS I don't mean that last bit, but I'm indulging some rage.
posted by Divine_Wino at 11:18 AM on November 3, 2004


Confidential to OBL et Al: Can the next one PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be in a red state that doesn't have a large vibrant mix of ethnicities, religions and philosophys that still manages to mostly get along?
thx in advance.


We wish.
posted by amberglow at 11:22 AM on November 3, 2004


well, finally!

now back to our regularly scheduled war in *insert country here*..
posted by mrplab at 11:23 AM on November 3, 2004


Did DIEBOLD end up releasing their source code? What about those exit poll discrepencies? Did they really occur only in districts with no paper trail?

Inasmuch as it is possible to look forward now to 2006, those in the blogosphere with the stomach and ability for it should not let up on any leads that indicate tampering or fixing--even if it can't change the results of this election. If you recall what the GOP-machine openly admitted they were willing to do to steal this election--target minority precincts, reject voter registrations based on paper weight, give John Ashcroft sole dominion over HAVA claims--there is no reason to think they would draw the line at outright tampering, hacking, miscounting, stuffing etc. And if that can be exposed, it would at least be something that could be used against them in 2006.
posted by boo at 11:24 AM on November 3, 2004


U.S. slides out of big-power status, following Russia to a world position and internal situation and economy closer to South Africa, Argentina or Turkey. On the slide downward, the U.S. may briefly experience parity with nations like Brazil and Thailand that will improve their status. Military and/or economic power will be held by Europe, China, India, Japan in no particular order. Nations like Canada and New Zealand will orient themselves toward Europe.

At some point, treatment of the U.S. will be like treatment of Russia the last few years--"what do we do about this deteriorating former superpower and its rusting nukes?"
posted by gimonca at 11:24 AM on November 3, 2004


That was a very classy speech.
posted by darukaru at 11:26 AM on November 3, 2004


amberglow: so what ? If media doesn't help (the majority of media sides with the ones in charge anytime anyway..or if they don't side, they tend to avoid confrontation) and if government is in total control of a party, therefore every sucess will be of the party as well as every failure.

As for the lack of check and balance, help do it yourself..as you can see from the result of this election, you can't trust one in two potential voters on caring about the political future of U.S...and while I can understand their nauseation of partisan politics , they still didn't vote so they'll get whatever comes ; rather then disenfrachise them (exactly what minorities want) one must find reason and feed them reasons to vote.

Which will be, I guess, one of the most important aspects of the 4 next years of propaganda as this election was a very very close call for both parties, regardless of felicitations coming from right or left about their success...to me they both sucked, managing to gain a mere 50% of voters and manging to not get 50% of voting population to vote.
posted by elpapacito at 11:27 AM on November 3, 2004


I'm so . . . ronery.
posted by swift at 11:28 AM on November 3, 2004


Democracy does work. Sometimes it doesn't work for you, but that doesn't mean it's broken.
posted by tommasz at 11:29 AM on November 3, 2004


U.S. slides out of big-power status, following Russia to a world position and internal situation and economy closer to South Africa, Argentina or Turkey. On the slide downward, the U.S. may briefly experience parity with nations like Brazil and Thailand that will improve their status. Military and/or economic power will be held by Europe, China, India, Japan in no particular order. Nations like Canada and New Zealand will orient themselves toward Europe.

And that's when we get to have sharpened boomerangs and assless chaps and dune buggies and we can finally realize the founding father's real secret deam for America. We gonna make Afghanistan look like motherfuckin' Denmark.
posted by Divine_Wino at 11:30 AM on November 3, 2004


Leaving is not so easy:

A reader’s guide to expatriating on November 3

I like the one about making your own island.
posted by jeblis at 11:33 AM on November 3, 2004


...and if government is in total control of a party, therefore every sucess will be of the party as well as every failure.

Because i guess this election taught me that it doesn't matter, to many voters--the majority of the country said we were on the wrong track, yet the majority of voters voted to stay the course anyway. As long as no one is held accountable (and this administration certainly doesn't take responsibility, nor did they run on it) there's nothing that i can see to do. Bush ran on Guns, God and Gays, and it worked for them. They didn't run on their record at all--they ran away from it.
posted by amberglow at 11:35 AM on November 3, 2004


What Armitage said. We haven't run a real liberal since Mondale. Do we have to run Jeb Bush?

Apparently, yes. In the interests of unity, northerners are only supposed to vote for southerners, not vice versa. I agree with Andrew Sullivan's comment about what's coming:
What we're seeing, I think, is a huge fundamentalist Christian revival in this country, a religious movement that is now explicitly political as well. It is unsurprising, of course, given the uncertainty of today's world, the devastating attacks on our country, and the emergence of so many more liberal cultures in urban America. And it is completely legitimate in this country for such views to be represented in public policy, however much I disagree with them. But the intensity of the passion, and the inherently totalist nature of religiously motivated politics means deep social conflict if we are not careful.
I don't think winning this election would have been a good thing for the Democratic party in the long term, but I think losing it would have the best thing for the Republicans and for the country in the long term. It would have given the old-school conservatives and moderates the ammunition to put the religious extremist genie back in the bottle. Instead, they have more power than ever.

I genuinely believe that gay rights will eventually be an issue that breaks the grip of the religious right because it's based on unsustainable hatred, but that day feels much further off.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 11:39 AM on November 3, 2004


So, can anyone (on either side, but I'd love to hear from our Bush-backers) help me find an upside here?

Art. Comedy. Literature. They're gonna get better. More relevant. More dangerous. More real. Seriously. Just watch.

Not that anyone still on the Clear Channel teat will ever know, but -- Man, that Jam song says it perfectly.
The braying sheep on the TV screen make this boy shout, make this boy scream...
posted by chicobangs at 11:44 AM on November 3, 2004


Well, does Edwards count as a southerner? I want him in 08, should i live that long.
posted by amberglow at 11:46 AM on November 3, 2004


.
posted by Keyser Soze at 11:46 AM on November 3, 2004


Where is this trend coming from? Kerry was a couple steps to the right of Gore and the next nominee will be even to the right, if not a stealth Republican like Wes Clark.

If the 'liberal' end of the democratic party was in charge, like you suggest,


I didn't suggest that at all. I only think that 9-11 definitely killed US classic liberalism, too, in a way. unless a big, big, BIG recession makes it a necessity, 1933-style, but the world's finance is different and it's very very unlikely, thank God

probably, 9-11 would have given birth to a Republican victory in '04 anyway (the whole nation shifting to the right after those dark-skinned furriner Muslim dudes brought down the towers etc.) but come on skallas, after 9-11 wrapped America in red-white-and-blue how in the fuck can you nominate a Taxachusetts millionaire Catholic who speaks French and even had the gall to state the obvious, ie that war crimes had been committed in VietNam by some US troops? that's political suicide.
French Fries, remember?
in this political climate, it didn't matter how many of these little evil yellow Commie men Kerry actually murdered in VietNam. the "French" look and the Faggachusetts origin and the furriner wife with an accent turned him into somebody not palatable to the voters you need to win.

and frankly, it makes no sense that the Democrats keep losing Florida. you can't have the panhandle people sink all your candidates, Democrats in '08 need Kerry's States PLUS Florida. and maybe Ohio. the South is lost, with a possible exception of maybe one too-small State that won't make a real difference in the Electoral College. nominate as VP a guy currently in jail for trying to murder Castro, better yet have a US congressman murder Castro and then nominate him for VP and carry Florida, for fuck's sake. how hard can that be? they're all yankees and Hispanics, down there, it's not the South

as long that there are Democratic voters still going with the "___ is too moderate to get the nomination", future'll look bleak.
I repeat, US liberals'll have to eat a lot of crow. sad but true.

BUT:

the Republicans -- as their Internet fans demonstrate daily in RL and in Blogland -- have three weaknesses:

-- a tendency to get cocky, spike the ball when they're winning, to push too hard (ie Gingrich and the govt shutdown)

-- they can't play defense, they're politically (and maybe even temperamentally, for the most part) unable to. hence they totally suck if you attack them the right way -- jujitsu politics, remember Clinton? wait for the opponent to be a little off-balance then floor him

-- America as a whole, right now, is to their left. America -- as a whole -- is no Mississippi. right now, the Mississippi-Texas GOP is ruling America, a country quite a bit to their left, closer to the center.

if liberals manage to choose a (white) working-class Southerner (or a Midwest man) who goes to church and has a gun in the house and looks good on tv and has reasonable experience and gets all misty when people say "911" and flies a huge flag in front of his house and has never been abroad and is politely wary of furriners, but with a smile, well, then they'll win big. BIG.

Bush will make many more mistakes, and won't be able to turn Iraq into a success at this point because he cannot leave in a hurry because it'll look like a retreat.

or go ahead, Hillary and Obama will carry a sizable chunk of New England. they wont' lose 0-50 against Jebby

____

and amber, forget about Edwards, please. please. he's going back to his law firm, a good nice man, let him go. please. don't do Saletan's mistake. Edwards' going nowhere fast
posted by matteo at 11:47 AM on November 3, 2004


I genuinely believe that gay rights will eventually be an issue that breaks the grip of the religious right because it's based on unsustainable hatred, but that day feels much further off.

I think many people rallied around the GOP, and actually got off their asses to vote-- to deny me rights, so i don't see that happening in my lifetime. It's now a thoroughly proven vote motivator, and will be used for the next bunch of elections. I see it as us gays being now at the Plessy v. Ferguson stage of the process, unfortunately. Even Oregon passed their amendment. With a more conservative Supreme Court for the next 20-40 years, there'll be no changing of that. Things actually went backwards yesterday, in terms of rights.
posted by amberglow at 11:53 AM on November 3, 2004


at least now he still has to fix Iraq. Not that he'll make a good job of it, but at least Kerry doesn't have to drown in the mire only for a Rep to come in 2008 and claim the credit for getting out. It's Bush's mess ... and he has to clean his room.

Moronic fuckwitted tugmuscle of an arsecandle that he is

on preview: jesus, matteo. Edit any?
posted by bonaldi at 11:53 AM on November 3, 2004


Mars, I'm saying this in the spirit of freindly advice, don't be such a pussy. Bush won by an extremely narrow margin.

I appreciate the spirit of friendly advice, but three and a half million votes is a lot bigger than what I would call an extremely narrow margin. According to CNN this morning, there are just shy of fifty-nine million people out there who gave Bush's incompetent disaster of a warmongering presidency their stamp of approval. It's a sea of red from the Rockies to the Atlantic, with a strip of blue sanity along the Pacific and through the Northeast. These people live on a different planet than I do, where a disastrous invasion of a tin-pot dictatorship is "strong leadership in the war on terror", where gay people are scary and evil and pushing them back in the closet is "protecting marriage", where cutting taxes increases revenue, where poor people just need to work harder, where "freedom" means a snoopy paternalistic government and "liberty" means arresting protestors anytime they open their mouths, where up is down and in is out and God hovers over your shoulder and tells you how to vote. How am I supposed to share a country with them?

Of course I'm not going to say anything so silly as "Bush won so I'm moving to Canada"; if I do end up crossing the border it will have as much to do with a genuine love for Vancouver B.C. as with any political statement. But this election just reminds me how far out of the American mainstream I really am, and makes it hard to feel like I belong here.

All the "go vote, your democracy depends on it" propaganda from the last few days suddenly seems like a sick joke. What difference does my vote make in a winner-takes-all system like this? No candidate who remotely represents me or my opinions will ever be nominated for a national office.

Don't give up - this is YOUR country you're fighting for!

That's just it; I don't think this *is* my country. There seem to be plenty more of them than there are of me.
posted by Mars Saxman at 11:55 AM on November 3, 2004


While this America settles in the mould of its vulgarity, heavily thickening to empire
And protest, only a bubble in the molten mass, pops and sighs out, and the mass hardens,
I sadly smiling remember that the flower fades to make fruit, the fruit rots to make earth.
Out of the mother; and through the spring exultances, ripeness and decadence; and home to the mother.
You making haste haste on decay: not blameworthy; life is good, be it stubbornly long or suddenly
A mortal splendor: meteors are not needed less than mountains: shine, perishing republic.
But for my children, I would have them keep their distance from the thickening center; corruption
Never has been compulsory, when the cities lie at the monster's feet there are left the mountains.
And boys, be in nothing so moderate as in love of man, a clever servant, insufferable master.
There is the trap that catches noblest spirits, that caught – they say – God, when he walked on earth.
-Robinson Jeffers
posted by freebird at 11:55 AM on November 3, 2004


Forgive the 60s vocabulary, but at least there is a possibility that Bush's victory will prompt some sort of anti-establishment reaction, culturally if not politically. If you define yourself by your enemy - and I think we all do, to a pretty large degree - then the more powerful the enemy becomes, the more our identity coalesces as a unit. Exit polls make it pretty clear that the USA is in the midst of a rising ideological civil war. It's a war between two different versions of "common sense," and the worse (for liberals) things get, the more ammunition is at their disposal.

Exercise your 2nd Amendment rights.
posted by swift at 11:58 AM on November 3, 2004


matteo: -- they wont' lose 0-50 against Jebby

I thought they brought McCain in line by promising him a run in '08.

We should start a lottery to predict how long it takes him to realize he's been screwed over again! Bwhahha-ha ...
posted by RavinDave at 12:00 PM on November 3, 2004


matteo, who is that mythical person? where is he now? even Clinton (went to Oxford, bla, bla, bla) wasn't that person you describe, and he won handily.

swift, we've already seen unprecedented suppression of free speech--our rights are already eroded.
posted by amberglow at 12:01 PM on November 3, 2004


...---...
posted by Down10 at 12:01 PM on November 3, 2004


They will be their own undoing.
posted by euphorb at 12:12 PM on November 3, 2004


Sidhedevil, a3matrix, here you go.
posted by MrMoonPie at 12:12 PM on November 3, 2004


MoonPie, I just made my own Lousy President Store. Everything for sale there is at the CafePress price--I'm not making a nickel.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:14 PM on November 3, 2004


No candidate who remotely represents me or my opinions will ever be nominated for a national office.

welcome to my world. i've been living here since 1982. zen buddhism isn't everything it's cracked up to be, but it's worth a look. meditation helps.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:14 PM on November 3, 2004


With a more conservative Supreme Court for the next 20-40 years, there'll be no changing of that. Things actually went backwards yesterday, in terms of rights.

I agree, and I'm terribly sorry that's the case.

The only bright spot I can see is that there still doesn't seem to be enough legislative support for a constitutional amendment. Perhaps the northeastern states, seeing the rest of country going one way on all kinds of social issues, will assert their (state's) rights to go their own way. It After some years of a state like Massachusetts being a model for a more enlightened approach (and not falling into the sea as divine punishment), maybe more people will get a clue.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 12:15 PM on November 3, 2004


Did I miss anything?

Republicans eat entire generation of babies, American populaton plummets.
Liberals set on fire in the streets.
Sky falls, crushes earth.

That should cover it, no?
posted by Krrrlson at 12:16 PM on November 3, 2004


amberglow, that's why I say exercise your 2nd Amendment rights, and I'm only half kidding. There's nothing wrong with being on the losing side of a fair election, but if it results in the loss of any civil rights then, well, I say get physical and go face the firehoses, or worse. When all else fails, it's not enough for people to see and talk about how much things suck, they have to find some sort of unity in an actual, ugly expression of their outrage - only then can they really imagine something better. And by they I mean we.

Elections are all about ceremony, and each of our votes counts for very little. But no matter which side wins, it's at least a reminder that collective action (though really, voting is the least a person can do as a citizen, i.e. it's not enough) makes a difference.
posted by swift at 12:16 PM on November 3, 2004


I'm pissed off but resolute. This isn't the end, its just another stopping point along the trail. The path got steeper and slipperier but I'm still willing and able to keep struggling to climb it.

stop talking in platitudes. you sound JUST like Chimpy McAWOL.
posted by quonsar at 12:16 PM on November 3, 2004


Does anyone think they would go over? (Hillary/Obama)

Well, *I* wouldn't vote for that ticket. But then, I'm done voting anyway, so have fun with it.

You have to keep trying.

No, I don't. You can play at fucking Sisyphus all you want, but leave me out of it.
posted by rushmc at 12:17 PM on November 3, 2004


There's not going to be any significant move to the right in terms of social policy. Bush will get 3 Supreme Court appointments, but 2 of them will be succeeding conservative incumbents and at least 1 of them will turn out to be a closet liberal in the Souter-Stevens-Blackmun mode. No net change.
posted by MattD at 12:18 PM on November 3, 2004


This raises some questions. What happens to Kerry from here on out? Will he stand for reelection to the Senate? And what about his running mate, John Edwards? Does a near-miss like this help, or hurt?

I lost the respect I'd slowly built up for Kerry this morning when he conceded. The fat lady might have been on stage and the house lights dimmed, but the curtain hadn't gone up yet.
posted by Foosnark at 12:19 PM on November 3, 2004


Global Monitors find fault:

The observers said they had less access to polls than in Kazakhstan, that the electronic voting had fewer fail-safes than in Venezuela, that the ballots were not so simple as in the Republic of Georgia and that no other country had such a complex national election system.

posted by gambuzino at 12:20 PM on November 3, 2004


This was in an email sent by a politically active friend of mine here in Portland:
> No, actually it's a time to wake up and be more
> playful. To have our moods less intertwined with the
> evil being done in the world, less tied to the news
> cycle, and more intertwined with the people around us.
>
> It's a time to bring joy into our everyday lives. We
> should be cooking good foods, playing fun games,
> listening to each other's struggles and triumphs,
> having great sex, following our dreams, dancing our
> dances, learning new things and enjoying good laughs.
>
> That's a challenge for many of us who have tied our
> identities and emotions directly to what happens in
> the world. We're the folks who make the news and
> listen to it - we're the ones who file the lawsuits,
> who organize the grassroots, who educate the ignorant,
> who lobby the bills, and who fight the election
> battles. That's excellent, very important work. But
> when the day is done, we've got to have something else
> in our lives. Something that we, not some ignorant
> voters and bad people, control.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 12:21 PM on November 3, 2004


quonsar, do me a favor and don't tell me what to think or say or do. I'm no mood to be told anything. By anyone.

You sound just like someone who needs his ass kicked. Badly.

If it makes me feel better to talk in haikus then I'm going to speak in 5-7-5 style. Don't like it? Tough shit.

Time to get the lead out and start fighting the good fight against the evil empire.
posted by fenriq at 12:21 PM on November 3, 2004


dhoyt: i use it figuratively and all the time. commence slapping. and if anyone was wondering: A reader’s guide to expatriating on November 3
posted by bob sarabia at 12:26 PM on November 3, 2004


So, DA, you're looking for "Run to the right" then?

To put it bluntly, yes. Not all the way to the right, mind you, but more right than Kerry. You can either acknowledge political reality, or you can stick to your principles no matter what the political cost (and look how well that works for the Libertarians).
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:27 PM on November 3, 2004


if anybody wants to become even more frightened and upset, try reading r.a.w.'s "schrodinger's cat trilogy," as i have this past week.

it's just coincidence that the computer controlling the united states (unistat) in a book written in 1979 is called gwb-666.

the books place their action in 1983-1984. 20 years later and it's just as topical.

(i know, i know: by reading a book not popular among bush supporters and finding it topical and relevant to life in the real world, i'm demonstrating elitist, faggoty, communist tendencies. i'll show up at the re-education center tomorrow, i promise).
posted by lord_wolf at 12:30 PM on November 3, 2004


Last night just proved, in even a bigger way than I expected, how out of touch metafilter is with middle america. Over and over again I've read comments that promised a kerry victory, that bush was dead in the water. I even kept track of a few of those comments to see how the poster would respond when bush won, but I lost count.

If one happened upon mefi over the last few months, he/she would think kerry would win in a landslide.

Many times posters speak as if metafilter represents america at large, when in fact it's like watching fox news, only the other side. I have no idea what causes this, unless it has to do with most of the mefi membership being from large urban areas, sheltered from everyone else who thinks differently.

Regardless of your politics, it's clear metafilter is on the fringe. I feel sorry for anyone outside the US depending on mefi for their barometer of US attitudes, values, and opinions. I'm sure they were very disappointed.

The funniest part of all this is the constant beating of the leftist 'get out and vote drum'. We have a huge turnout, but things don't go the way they expected, so now they're ashamed to be american, when in reality, what just happened couldn't be more american.
posted by justgary at 3:30 PM on November 3, 2004


Hey, John Kerry ... why the long face? (Sorry, I've been waiting for six months to use that one).
posted by MidasMulligan at 3:31 PM on November 3, 2004


That was good, Midas. I keep thinking of Kerry's face and that Munch (sp?) painting becoming one.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 3:33 PM on November 3, 2004


You sound just like someone who needs his ass kicked. Badly.

GEORGE BUSH IS YOUR DADDY.
posted by quonsar at 3:38 PM on November 3, 2004


Metafilter is a world community. The election showed how out of touch middle America is with Metafilter, not the other way round.
posted by salmacis at 3:38 PM on November 3, 2004


how out of touch metafilter is with middle america

If MeFi were in touch with middle america, I wouldn't be here.
posted by Nelson at 3:41 PM on November 3, 2004


Quonsar, um, no, he's not but thanks for trolling on by.

You didn't used to be a troll, what happened? Did the men in dark suits pay you a visit? Did your VotesforCash check arrive?

Or are you just showing your true colors?

Whatever, go fuck yourself.

On Preview: Nelson, damn right. Neither would I nor would most of the rest of us. We'd have had to leave just because of the atrocious spelling alone.
posted by fenriq at 3:46 PM on November 3, 2004


ha! Somebody mentioned RAW at long last. Note that his favourite candidate, Nobody, won handily once again. Welcome to the Aftermath, people! Don't let distant visions of the approaching age of Chaos get you down. Support the Guns & Dope party for 2032! We can win it!
posted by sfenders at 3:49 PM on November 3, 2004


Oh, I would not give you false hope
On this strange and mournful day
Cos' the mother and child reunion
Is only emotion away

Paul Simon (1971)
posted by rdone at 3:54 PM on November 3, 2004


We have a huge turnout, but things don't go the way they expected, so now they're ashamed to be american, when in reality, what just happened couldn't be more american.

Wow, thanks for pointing out the obvious. Did you think someone missed that? Why do you think people feel they no longer belong? Rule by mob has spoken, what do you do when the growing mob doesn't respresent you or anything at all about you?

And if you think this is going to get better, do a little research: in the last 10 years the US has grown nothing but more conservative, more evangelical, more traditional, less supportive of non-white immigrants, and less feminist. The rest of the continent is going in the opposite direction. Sometimes you have to ditch a sinking ship. [See this book for more details and statistics on this.]

I don't really get why people are so pissy when someone wants to leave. This is democracy in action: if you don't feel the same way as the majority, you're fucked. That's how it works without a strong socialist underpinning. If it's not the place you want to live, don't live there.

If you're interested in emigrating, get your hands on a list of portable careers and get yourself into one. When the majority fails you, sometimes you have to vote with your feet.
posted by Hildegarde at 3:57 PM on November 3, 2004


If MeFi were in touch with middle america, I wouldn't be here.

i don't know, there are some middle americans i'd love to touch. with my fists.

after i knocked their asses the fuck out, i'd pack 'em a bowl, grab 'em a cold beer, and sit down with them and smoke 'em out. then i'd tell them why i had to cold cock 'em and explain why voting for bush doesn't serve their best interests.

then if they were so inclined, i'd let 'em take a shot at me so they can walk away feeling like we're even.

by the way, justgary, there were numerous posts prior to 11/2 pointing out how bush was going to win in a landslide and how kerry was dead in the water -- from both bush supporters and kerry supporters. but, like your boy, i suppose you don't let facts get in the way of your faith-based proclamations.

on preview: sfenders, every ostrich is a tsar!
posted by lord_wolf at 3:59 PM on November 3, 2004


How prophetic, huh?
posted by amberglow at 3:59 PM on November 3, 2004


I'm glad Arafat is in France, and not the US: hopefully their mediocre medical care will hasten his demise--"no Jewish-French MDs, please, please!
posted by ParisParamus at 4:07 PM on November 3, 2004


justgary: You're right. We should all become Evangelist Christians now, and bow down before the second coming of Our Lord Bush Christ. That way, we can better relate with middle America. Dominion is ours!
posted by fungible at 4:14 PM on November 3, 2004


"strong wartime leadership" -- Is that what we're calling fear mongering now?
posted by krisjohn at 4:15 PM on November 3, 2004


Many times posters speak as if metafilter represents america at large, when in fact it's like watching fox news, only the other side.

AMEN to that. Mefi has (always has been?) become the leftist equivalent to LGF. Sad, really, for such an enlightened educated progressive bunch.
posted by poopy at 4:15 PM on November 3, 2004


Our country has entered into a vicious and sad era from which it may never recover. Superstitious imbeciles have taken over and our own Democratic leaders who are supposed to be the good guys, the smart ones, have failed. The party of ignorance and hate have elected a criminal president. The ‘Good Christians’ in this country are long gone, replaced by shallow narcissistic strip-mall Shruburb dwellers. They have pledged themselves to a weak minded thug, a dry drunk absolutionist who is morally bankrupt in every way.

Our country has been irreversibly realigned to the attitudes of ignorance, vice and malice. Our national soul is forever tarnished.
posted by wfrgms at 4:16 PM on November 3, 2004


if anybody wants to become even more frightened and upset, try reading r.a.w.'s "schrodinger's cat trilogy," as i have this past week.

it's just coincidence that the computer controlling the united states (unistat) in a book written in 1979 is called gwb-666.


It has to be coincidence. If Dubya were a sci-fi character, he would not be a supercomputer. He'd be Johnny Mnemonic, a Keanu-Reeves style empty vessel whose brain goes unoccupied until somebody else installs the data bank.
posted by jonp72 at 4:25 PM on November 3, 2004


Maybe it's time to give the Red State folks what they say that they want - state's rights & smaller federal government - as discussed on this Kos thread. It'd be really interesting to see what they'd do once the Blue State tax revenues slow to a trickle and they experience a brain-drain of people who are tired of their ass-backwards ways. I
posted by echolalia67 at 4:30 PM on November 3, 2004


Whatever, go fuck yourself.

teenagers are so cute these days.
posted by quonsar at 4:31 PM on November 3, 2004


I'm just disappointed the Washington Redskins-presidential election correlation has been broken.
posted by bright cold day at 4:31 PM on November 3, 2004


Bush is just the computer case. The CPU is in PNAC.
posted by quasistoic at 4:33 PM on November 3, 2004


quonsar, yes they are cute. However, I'm not a teenager, I'm not a stupid kid, I voted and I'm pissed off. You want to bait me? Fine, and you call me a child?

Whatever, you're an idiot troll loser. I hope you choke on the next bag of Doritos you inhale.

Thanks for being part of the further degeneration of MetaFilter. You're a shining example of exactly what's wrong here. Wow, you're a poster child for assholes! Congratulations!
posted by fenriq at 4:52 PM on November 3, 2004


My only consolation is that MonkeyBoy and his gang can only get four more years.

MonkeyBoy can only get four more years.

His gang can be there indefinitely, no?

And couldn't the whole gang decide on a constitutional amendment that would eliminate the two-term limit?
posted by five fresh fish at 4:52 PM on November 3, 2004


Today, we are all Americans Al Qaeda.

How things change in three short years, and how much they stay the same, huh?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:53 PM on November 3, 2004


echolalia-- have you ever seen data that shows the state-to-state welfare transfers excluding Social Security? I haven't.
posted by trharlan at 4:55 PM on November 3, 2004


Many times posters speak as if metafilter represents america at large

I think you're just taking it wrong, and I think this is a mistake both sides make, in and out of metafilter. When people say what they think and say it with conviction, when they say it at all persuasively, it's going to come across as "they think they're so smart" to those who disagree. How can an American make an argument and not represent herself as American? How can you even guess what "America at large" really means? All we know is how they voted and a sample of what issues influenced their vote. More to the point though, who's been saying metafilter is some kind of mini-America? I think you're just making it up because you feel outnumbered.

If metafilter were a real reflection of America, Matt would have $80,000 in credit card debt, there would be banner ads covering half of every page, and whenever the server overheated we'd pray for it to get well.

Maybe that's not so far off.
posted by swift at 4:57 PM on November 3, 2004


Thanks, Hildegarde for managing to put it so well.

I'm all for fighting for what one thinks is right, but in this case, what is the best option: hunkering down here to peel one person at a time—at high cost in both time and effort; going somewhere else to contribute to a nation that does represent you, thereby helping to create an example of your beliefs and how they lead to better lives; living in exile in the hope that someday your country will come back, keeping those traditions you consider fundamental to "your America" warm and dry? It's hard to know just now.
posted by dame at 5:01 PM on November 3, 2004


If you are unhappy with the way things are going, try to change them. Don't just get pissed off and moan. Do something. You have to keep trying. --dig_duggler

Hopeful sentiments, and I applaud those who can cheerfully follow them, but I tell ya...I've been doing that very thing since before I was 18...and that was a lot of elections ago. In that time, I've seen the "moralists" win again, and again, and again. I can't tell you how many campaigns I've worked for and financially supported...local, state, and federal, and the fact is that the country as a whole has shifted dramatically to the right.

The party that calls itself the Democrats have a stand on the issues that is similar to the Eisenhower/Truman Republicans. The current crop calling themselves Republican are so heavily tied to the Christian message that they've forsaken the traditional platform of restraint and small government and have become the biggest "Daddy State" imaginable.

I disagree that this is not a time to be depressed and disheartened. I think this is a perfect time for those emotions...which seem rational given the current situation.

11 states...ELEVEN...voted to amend their constitutions to write in discrimination. Eleven.

Christian message candidates won in every single election where they were entered. All of them. Across the board. The country is gearing into New Puritanism, and the movement is only getting bigger and picking up steam.

Me, I'm weary. I'm depressed. I'm disillusioned. I'm not looking forward to listening to all of my neighbors gloat about how God put their candidate in the Oval Office. I'm tired of people planting flags in my yard because they think that anyone without a Bush sign must be a traitor. I'm tired of a two party system that is so broken it's worthless. I'm tired of reading page after page of DOD casualty reports every day, which I will continue to do until the body bags stop. I'm tired of thinking about how my son and the rest of his generation will be enslaved by the debt structure this regime has created. I'm tired of being a voice in the fucking wilderness. I'm tired of politics as usual. I'm just tired.
posted by dejah420 at 5:01 PM on November 3, 2004


I took the Kerry sticker off my car and put an upside down American flag (the symbol of distress and emergency) in its' place. Any bets on how long until my car is vandalized in some manner?
posted by keswick at 5:05 PM on November 3, 2004


Fuck America. I used to be more tolerant because I figured you guys weren't responsible for someone who ran on the basis of being a compassionate conservative. Not any more. The world is a different place now and I have to lose my pre 11/2 mindset.
posted by The God Complex at 5:15 PM on November 3, 2004


Yes amberglow, it was rigged. The whole thing, up and down, before, during and after the election, everything the Bush administration has done is simply another piece of the Norquist et al plan (whether it be propaganda, shenanigans or [character] assassination). Keep in mind, Dubya has not vetoed ONE BILL that has crossed his desk. That's not governance, it's play acting. Dubya's a drama queen like other totalitarian figureheads before him. This is folks, as history will ultimately bear out, a plutocratic dictatorship that we now live under. That we live in a democracy is merely windowdressing. The remaining frontiers of government that can actually be affected by real citizens is now effectively the local schoolboard and the token "leftie" municipality and even that, I dare surmise, is an acidic cauldron of internecine reactionism itself. America's broke.

And what's it to those who would chide another for wanting to leave for greener, more cosmopolitan pastures? You didn't care five years ago when I wanted to move to London. Nor did you utter nary a peep when two years ago I was contemplating Berlin. Why on god's green Earth would you give a damn about what any of us want to do with the rest of our lives now? This used to be a place called the United States of America, where on vacations between semesters it was encouraged that students travel the world, go to Europe, see the pyramids, maybe even visit Jerusalem. What, I ask, have you motherfuckers done to the innocence of this country? Because yes, it is YOU! You and your fucking trained seal nationalistic pride will destroy the good and common thread all humans share alike -- and that is innocence, the learning process, the FACT that other human beings will always disagree with you. Yes, yes, yes, I am speaking of the GLOBAL TEST. I will live on planet Earth any day, taking in sunsets around the sphere, enjoying tea with Japanese friends, glugging beer with Frenchmen, falling in love with a Canadian, before I will ever bow to your cocksucking, preposterously BORING, cartonized and processed, needlessly cruel worldview.

You're idiots, every last damn one of you. (You know who you are)

We've always, you see, been free to leave. Now suddenly you "care" that some of us would dare expatriate at a "time like this". This all very easy to explain. It is poisoned, dulled, utterly manipulated mindsets like yours which will always find a way to exploit the innocence in the fellow next to you. You will always think you're getting somewhere, gaining something, by calling someone you disagree with a "pussy". Truth is, dysfunctional vicarious megalomaniacs like you will always need to have someone around to oppress or put to death should the "needs of the state" deem it so. Have you ever thought about what co-dependent rubes you all may be, getting caught up in the "fever" that when you sit down and think it over, even you can't explain why it is?

The whole lot of you gloaters are idiots, only you haven't realized it yet. And no, no I am not compensating for anything. Truth will eventually out. All of our lives are finite. All of this, everything, is a distraction.

We could have been beautiful, but instead we enable and finance the bringers of death. You tell me where there is greatness, holiness, righteousness, to be found in that. And if you think you find it, are you really sure? Are you positive this is all happening for a greater good?

And about aaronschaff's post, way up above: I've given that guy a hard time in the past. But what he said was truly heartfelt. I appreciated it. As much as I disagree with him on everything, I would lend him a calm hand anytime he needed it.
posted by crasspastor at 5:21 PM on November 3, 2004 [1 favorite]


quonsar vs. fenriq: let the fratricide begin.
posted by dash_slot- at 5:28 PM on November 3, 2004




If anyone wants to know why the Left lost this election, all they have to do is read this thread.

Everyone's fault, but your own.


this probably didn't help much either.
posted by mcsweetie at 5:30 PM on November 3, 2004


eat shit, you pouty little napoleonic toddler.
posted by quonsar at 5:41 PM on November 3, 2004


oops, that should have been:

Thanks for being part of the further degeneration of MetaFilter. You're a shining example of exactly what's wrong here. Wow, you're a poster child for assholes! Congratulations!

eat shit, you pouty little napoleonic toddler.
posted by quonsar at 5:42 PM on November 3, 2004


The party that calls itself the Democrats have a stand on the issues that is similar to the Eisenhower/Truman Republicans. The current crop calling themselves Republican are so heavily tied to the Christian message that they've forsaken the traditional platform of restraint and small government and have become the biggest "Daddy State" imaginable.

In short, the United States has been moving to the right for decades.

If I were living in the USA, I'd take that as an advisory long-term trend. If you don't think you can live with what it's destined for, and you think it'll get there before you die, you may wish to consider leaving. I really don't think you're going to ever stop it; the past few decades bear witness to the power of the trend.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:46 PM on November 3, 2004


Mars Saxman: According to CNN this morning, there are just shy of fifty-nine million people out there who gave Bush's incompetent disaster of a warmongering presidency their stamp of approval. It's a sea of red from the Rockies to the Atlantic, with a strip of blue sanity along the Pacific and through the Northeast. These people live on a different planet than I do, where a disastrous invasion of a tin-pot dictatorship is "strong leadership in the war on terror", where gay people are scary and evil and pushing them back in the closet is "protecting marriage", where cutting taxes increases revenue, where poor people just need to work harder, where "freedom" means a snoopy paternalistic government and "liberty" means arresting protestors anytime they open their mouths, where up is down and in is out and God hovers over your shoulder and tells you how to vote. How am I supposed to share a country with them?

You know, I'm getting really frustrated with this repeated theme of pointing to the EC vote map and saying, "see, we really are two separate countries!" The EC vote map reflects the winner-take all structure imposed by the EC, not real demographics or voting patters. But it is much easier to see things in red and blue than in varrying shades of violet.

Kerry consistently hit 40% in the South and Southwest (with the exception of Utah.) In addition, there appears to have been some vote-splitting with at least 4 of the red states electing Democratic senators or govenors. There are more Republicans in New York than in the Dakotas and Northern Mountain States combined. California had almost as many Bush voters as all of the Rocky Mountain range. The country is not as balkanized as the Red/Blue maps and your stereotypes suggest.

I think it might have been jonmc who posted that if you are wailing and gnashing your teeth because of a 2.5% difference between Bush and Kerry, Reagan's sweeping victories would have been absolutely horrifying. Reality check here folks.

Your post highlights a central cultural problem that left-wingers have that has been brought up here repeatedly and poo-pooed away. Over the weekend, I ran into a transplanted guy from, shall we say, an unnamed large city in the Pacific Northwest that is famous for coffee. I realized after he lectured me about the cultural failings of the area around my home town for 5 minutes that as a born and bred Hoosier leftie, I might as well be bigfoot, Santa Claus, and the Loch Ness Monster, rolled into one package. The cultural gap is not that everyone in the bible-belt is a religious uber-conservative. It's just that you seem to think everyone in the bible-belt is a religious uber-conservative.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 5:51 PM on November 3, 2004


said was truly heartfelt. I appreciated it.

And as I yours. Damn fine post Crasspastor.
posted by rough ashlar at 5:52 PM on November 3, 2004


Maybe next time, the President should be decided over a No-Limit Texas Hold'em poker game.
posted by bwg at 5:54 PM on November 3, 2004


tharlan: have you ever seen data that shows the state-to-state welfare transfers excluding Social Security? I haven't.


Here you go.
posted by echolalia67 at 5:54 PM on November 3, 2004


Many times posters speak as if metafilter represents america at large, when in fact it's like watching fox news, only the other side. I have no idea what causes this, unless it has to do with most of the mefi membership being from large urban areas, sheltered from everyone else who thinks differently.

I don't know if this is an apt comparison. Anyone who wants to can come on Metafilter and post. Unless I've missed a memo. (have I? No. Didn't think so).

It just says some people can see through the games and recklessness of the Bush camp and others are too greedy or trusting or blinded by their own need to scapegoat to think a sitting American President would stick it to them in the ass even while whispering sweet nothings about "security" and "faith" and "principles".
posted by Skygazer at 5:56 PM on November 3, 2004


*gives crasspastor standing ovation*
posted by psmealey at 6:04 PM on November 3, 2004


You will always think you're getting somewhere, gaining something, by calling someone you disagree with a "pussy".

crasspastor, I'm the one who used the word "pussy" and the person on the recieving end is someone I've met in person and who knows me well enough to know that it was meant in a half-joking buck-up-and-keep-pushin' sort of way.

Not that it negates any of your other points, but I just wanted to clarify my statement.
posted by jonmc at 6:13 PM on November 3, 2004


What election?

.
posted by LouReedsSon at 6:15 PM on November 3, 2004


if you are wailing and gnashing your teeth because of a 2.5% difference between Bush and Kerry, Reagan's sweeping victories would have been absolutely horrifying. Reality check here folks.

reality check 2: Reagan didn't have a disaster of a war with 1,000+ American GI dead and counting, a devastating attack on US soil, a net loss of jobs, the Abu Ghraib war crimes etc on his record in '84. he only had a badly mangled deficit. Bush's record, unlike Reagan's, is appalling. Bush '04 is like LBJ '68, an unelectable candidate who, in saner times, would have had to withdraw from the race like LBJ did.
I can perfectly understand voting massively for Reagan in '84 -- the "morning in America" BS was very well done. this year it was "we're making progress in Iraq" and "Kerry went to Vietnam but didn't bleed enough".
it's not shameful to admit that America is very bloodthirsty because 19 darkies destroyed those two towers, and America voted for the more bloodthirsty candidate.
simple as that.

it's not really bestial, on the contrary it's very human: revenge. and revenge is blind. who cares if Saddam didn't do 9-11 but ISI and the Saudis and a former CIA asset like Osama did? the darkies killed 3,000 Americans, hundreds of thousands of darkies will have to die.
they also worship a strange God.

I mean, Mel Gibson's 600+ million box office monster success teaches an interesting lesson.
it really is the movie of the year.
posted by matteo at 6:17 PM on November 3, 2004


Ouch!
posted by homunculus at 6:17 PM on November 3, 2004


I'm so glad that you chose me as your evening's entertainment, oh mighty quonsar. You really aren't very funny or witty. But hey, if it keeps you from humping your hand some more, I guess its for the greater good.

Whatever. The world will always have its fair share of dipshits who didn't get enough attention as children so they become trolls to get any attention they can. I'm sorry your mother and father didn't like you very much or pay any attention to you. I really am.

You're yet another dysfunctional asswad with a keyboard spreading hate. Good for you.

Oh, by the way, MeTa.
posted by fenriq at 6:22 PM on November 3, 2004


KJS: I know we've butted heads about the red-blue/rural-urban thing in the past, and I think you're right that it isn't fair to assume that just because someone is from somewhere red, they are a christian neanderthal bigot, just as it isn't fair for people to assume that just because I'm American, I'm a christian neanderthal bigot. But you know what? Forty percent isn't enough. It wasn't and it isn't. So maybe instead of getting offended at us, you should talk to your neighbors. They're the one's making you look bad.
posted by dame at 6:24 PM on November 3, 2004


we have all got to pitch in. A lot.
So much work to be done, so little time.
posted by DenOfSizer at 6:24 PM on November 3, 2004


ones
posted by dame at 6:25 PM on November 3, 2004


Read your links, echolalia!

Another factor is demography. States with more residents on Social Security, Medicare and other federal entitlements tend to rank high.

PS- I am not making a political point! I just want to see the data!
posted by trharlan at 6:38 PM on November 3, 2004


crasspastor: You can call it trained seal nationalistic pride. But the fact of the matter is, I am a member of a community. There are people that I care about here, deeply and passionately. Many of those people will be lucky if they get the opportunity to visit another country for just a week. Personally, I can't affoard a bus ticket to Chicago, much less, a flight to London.

I can't help but think that this whole thing being an expat comes from both a profound disconnection and profound privilege. Profound disconnection in that many of those expressing this wish seem to harbor quite a bit of contempt for the people around them. And profound privilege because the people I've heard express this desire are by their own admission, not among those who bear the worst brunt of United States policy. These are also not people offering to take their valuable skills to Namibia, but competing for entry into one of the elite economic powehouses of the world.

And somehow, I get the impression that you are expecting us to applaud and say wow, you are really cool for using the extreme priveleges of your class and your nationality to become a "citizen of the world." When in fact, what these wannabe expats are proposing is some form of free floating leech, sucking your existence off of the economic systems you claim dispise, but without any accountability because you can always detach and move on elsewhere when the problems get too irritating.

Perhaps I feel just a bit lucky because I talk to people from around the world. People from India that have faced inter-religious terrorism on a yearly basis. People from China who don't sign petitions because it might hurt their career prospects. People from Turkey who face a much harder problem maintaining a secular state. Having an international perspective reveals that America is not that bad off, yet. It reveals just how shallow this whole expat business is.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 6:39 PM on November 3, 2004


~chuckle~

Never underestimate the power of fear and a certain American inbred inertia of ignorance upon American elections.

Folks, Kerry was a better alternative than Bush by far (who wasn't?), but not the best alternative...nor, perhaps, was Kerry's election going to be good for long term change in this country. This election was essentially over when the centrists in the Democratic Party decided Dean had to go.

Bush and his legions of globally-challenged supporters have created the mess this country is in, domestically and internationally. They will have to lie in it, and take responsibility for it eventually. We've seen the lies on Iraq. We've seen the shattered promises on job creation and the economy. We're going to watch the great squeeze of working Americans shift into higher gear. The incompetence and scandals of Bush's first term roosting in his second will kill right-wing ideas for generations.

We're merely reliving Nixon '72. Sometimes it just takes a while for the massive deadweight that is the Grand American Public to get educated.

Keep the faith. As a certain despised-by-the-right minister once said, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.

Keep the faith. Initially supportive of Bush's war, a majority of Americans are understanding slowly the error and terror of Bush's yellow war. At first besotted with greed and an adolescent "me first" philosophy, people do grow and haltingly develop consciences. Sometimes it takes confrontation time after time, but people do learn and respond over time....slowly....sometimes over decades.

Keep the faith.

~wink~
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 6:40 PM on November 3, 2004


It seems to be both candidates did very well, drawing very high numbers of voters. In the end, like in so many democratic elections, Bush did better than Kerry by a relatively small margin. The fact that one won and the other lost shouldn't make people react as if were a massive victory. It wasn't.

In a parliamentary system, the Republicans would have a small majority and the Democrats a massive Opposition. Surely this is how they should react and get on with the business of winning in four years' time.

Perhaps it's more intelligent to forget about Kerry and Edwards and concentrate on the Democratic Party which they simply belong to. It achieved, according to the data, extraordinary mobilization of new, real voters at the beginning of their political life, whereas the Republicans seem to have benefited from a significant segment of voters who don't usually vote or vote Democrat.

My hunch is that ordinary, non-politicized American voters like to vote for someone they truly like and don't much go for the more European, negative habit of voting against someone. As it is, it might be that, in this election, a lot of people who voted Republican wouldn't normally have voted for Bush (many probably too right-wing; some Afro-Americans with anti-gay prejudices; some Jewish Democratic voters who think Bush is better for Israel) and a lot of people who voted for Kerry would never have voted for Kerry but just wanted to keep Bush out.

Perhaps these anti-votes are unsympathetic to the broad American political culture.

I'm glad Bush won but, if I backed the Democrats, I surely wouldn't be as disheartened as a lot of people here. I also find it worrying that there's so much hatred for tens of millions of fellow Americans, according to such crude generalizations and caricatures.

Isn't it far more useful to concentrate on the political parties themselves? If I were a Democrat, I'd suddenly become twice as active politically and put up a good fight. Bush must love all your disappointment and desillusion - it's so convenient for him.

(Excuse a foreigner butting in uninvited and any possible gaffes)
posted by MiguelCardoso at 6:41 PM on November 3, 2004


I just fell out of love with Miguel.
posted by ColdChef at 7:02 PM on November 3, 2004


I hope the moral fights really start flying and we get to bring back the old school Blue Ribbon Campaign!

Remember that? Those were the days I tells ya...
posted by travis vocino at 7:09 PM on November 3, 2004


The fact that one won and the other lost shouldn't make people react as if were a massive victory. It wasn't.

It was a massive victory, not by a count of votes, but by the opportunities that will be presented to a Republican victor. Three possible Supreme Court Justices that can be slipped right through a Republican Congress for starters. And just about anything else Bush and his cabinet desires just requires a call to Hastert or Frist. For at least the next four years, a single party in control removes the checks and balances that this government was built on.

Isn't it far more useful to concentrate on the political parties themselves? If I were a Democrat, I'd suddenly become twice as active politically and put up a good fight. Bush must love all your disappointment and desillusion - it's so convenient for him.

Yes. 100% yes.
posted by eyeballkid at 7:10 PM on November 3, 2004


Maybe next time, the President should be decided over a No-Limit Texas Hold'em poker game.

Excellent idea. It would be more fun to watch. It would be a true test of the candidates' skill at lying, an important Presidential skill. It would require good money management to win. Any attempt to rely on faith would hurt one's chances. They would demonstrate the ability to count, add, subtract, and calculate implied pot odds, and more useful skills.

It might not be a good way to decide the winner, but it would be a much better display of skill than the debates they had this time.

I'm a christian neanderthal bigot.

You know, it's probably not a good idea to lump all of Christianity in with "neanderthal" and "bigot". I know some perfectly reasonable Christians, as well as some think-browed bigotted ones. I searched for every mention of "Christian" in this thread, and every damn one was using it as synonymous with the deranged bible-thumping personality-cult Television-era Evangelical literalist soul-eating false-humility God-is-on-my-side kind of Christians. They do seem to be getting more common, but they're still in the minority among people who are of the larger group of faiths that names itself after the Christ.

This shit isn't about of Christianity taking over politics, it's is power-crazy wackos taking over both.
posted by sfenders at 7:12 PM on November 3, 2004


Yeah, the evangelist victory sucks, but jonmc is right: the cultural alienation this time around ain't nothing compared to the Reagan landslides. The real worry is the economy. Bush has no policy to deal with rising oil prices, no policy to deal with the budget deficit, no policy to deal with the spiralling costs of the Iraq war, no policy to deal with the ballooning trade deficit, and no policy to deal with the economic disaster that will be the next terrorist attack. America is in for four years of serious economic decline, and the country will probably spend the entire time debating social issues instead.
posted by fuzz at 7:14 PM on November 3, 2004


Kirkjobsluder:

I cannot afford rent this month, nor can I afford the new alternator I need on (god I wish it actually ran on rice) Hyundai. But I'll tell ya what, here in this thread sits hundreds of streams of thought who have grown comfortable enough in this unseemly blue to consider it a bit of a home within their home. All across this world there are people with wishes and feelings who cannot express themselves, either for lack of wanting or for want from what lacks.

What I'm talking about is the world, as it was envisioned by a more or less idealist nation, prodded forth by many media sources, every one of them their very own trains of thought. We gave authority to those who spoke of the rest of the planet as though it were a place or a respite from the daily grind, the 9 to 5 that encompasses everything that we do. No matter how bad the news we didn't treat a war (this time in Iraq) as though it were a job, with vacations and benefits. You do realize that soldiers are flown home on jumbo jets periodically so they can remain for the time in the "normalcy" of just going to work -- in Iraq.

There is the crime.

We are treating the world as though it weren't a planet from which nature, god, whatever had us spring. We are treating it and its hapless hive of needy people as though they are subjects to us. Believe me, this cannot last -- these nationalistic sentiments. We will eventually strike rock hard conscientiousness. How far however, is that, from where we are now? When will the realities of these times strike to the fiber of the social-being, who happens to be your family and mine, your community and also my own?

Since when have I ever made it known that I do not think my lower middle-class American privilege has not afforded me my very own, personalized outlook on the planet now, as it stands? I sit here at a computer, as do you, while billions suffer in swamps, deserts and office parks. The needs are the same. And the needs of modern life are nothing.

Perhaps this is how untenable this situation we find ourselves in is. Perhaps there are no solutions. I for one, am glad, should humanity cease to exist, to have lived in a time where a commoner, such as myself, had ample opportunity to traverse the world. You, all of us, still have more of an opportunity to see the world, in less time than that of any kind of royalty a mere 100 years ago!

Once this reality of western life is gone, so goes with it our perception of the planet on which we depend.
posted by crasspastor at 7:16 PM on November 3, 2004


Wow, thanks for pointing out the obvious. Did you think someone missed that?

Judging from what I've been reading? Yep. And who's getting pissy about people wanting to leave? Want to leave? Leave. Doesn't bother me either way. But we both know 99.9 percent are staying right here.

from both bush supporters and kerry supporters. but, like your boy, i suppose you don't let facts get in the way of your faith-based proclamations.

Lord wolf, why don't you show me all the conservatives here who claimed bush would lose and I'll show you a the liberals. Don't worry, it'll only take you second.

Really, now, my boy? I'm more libertarian, but you can jump to conclusions if you like. You represent the worst of the dems. It's hard to discuss anything with someone who needs therapy.

justgary: You're right. We should all become Evangelist Christians now, and bow down before the second coming of Our Lord Bush Christ. That way, we can better relate with middle America. Dominion is ours!

See, that's the perfect example of pure idiotcy on mefi. Where you come up with that crap is beyond me. Bush won the popular vote. On metafilter, he might get 5 percent. Out of touch. Good or bad, take it or leave it, sad or not, it's fact.

I have no idea what you read into my post, but here's hoping now that the elections are over your kind will vanish from mefi. Oh, I can hope.
posted by justgary at 7:17 PM on November 3, 2004


Miguel, I'm one of the rare semi-conservatives here on Metafilter, but I'm very disheartened at the Bush win. In part because of the neoconservative foreign policy, but especially because of their mismangement of even their vision. Brassy and unable to deliver competently and concisely -- and also unable to compromise with those who could help them do it. And we rewarded that.... (and, in many cases, my neighbors were convinced that Bush's failures were actually successes...)
posted by weston at 7:19 PM on November 3, 2004


PS. If you want ot know why kerry loss, look no further than the vile released in this thread by his 'supporters'.

When the extreme gets a hold of anything, it's going to hell.

Reap what you sow.
posted by justgary at 7:20 PM on November 3, 2004


PPS That is teh god grammr.
posted by swift at 7:30 PM on November 3, 2004


KirkJS, you should get out more. Your assessment of the lives of expats is uninformed and mean-spirited. The experiences and motivations of those who live and work abroad is extremely diverse. To my experience, world travel requires more imagination and hard work than money or "privilege." The expatriate community living throughout south Asia runs the gambit: all ethnic, economic and philosophical backgrounds represented.

My perspective is that the mobility of people and groups is as important as the mobility of resources on a computer network. Educators like myself should be free to move around the international education networks, to apply themselves to those tasks for which they are best suited. The same for other industries.

I acknowledge that this mobility represents privilege, but not the kinds you seem to think. The economic bar for world mobility isn't as high as the imagination bar, for example. People with complains like yours are more constrained by their ignorance than by economics.
posted by squirrel at 7:31 PM on November 3, 2004



You're yet another dysfunctional asswad with a keyboard spreading hate. Good for you.


MY DICK. YOUR FACE.

*hoots, gibbers, flings poo*
posted by quonsar at 7:39 PM on November 3, 2004


foldy, Nixon had to deal with a hostile Democratic congress. Not an issue here. Bush could eat babies for dinner and he still wouldn't get the votes for impeachment.
posted by PrinceValium at 7:39 PM on November 3, 2004


justgary:

You are such a benighted reactionary.

Here's a question:

What happens when the extremely stupid and inhumane gain absolute, definable power?

They post incoherent, inexact and sloppy forms of projection. . .
We are now reaping what you are currently sowing gary.

Next year should be a damned fine harvest.
posted by crasspastor at 7:39 PM on November 3, 2004


A mandate for a culture war
posted by homunculus at 7:45 PM on November 3, 2004


Reagan didn't have a disaster of a war with 1,000+ American GI dead and counting

But he did have nearly 1/4 of that dead with one bomb during the misadventures in Beirut.

a devastating attack on US soil

True dat. You'd expect that to favor Bush, though.

a net loss of jobs

But did have unemployment substantially higher than now, and interest rates nearly three times higher. For lots of people, far worse times than now.

Abu Graibh

I'm too lazy to check the timing, but between El Salvador, Nicaragua, and support for apartheid South Africa, there was plenty of moral reason to dislike Reagan.

And lots of people did dislike him. Reagan had a lot of strikes against him in the 84 election.

But, in spite of all that (and probably because he's personall a much better politician than Bush), he managed to absolutely *spank* Mondale. Kerry at least was not spanked.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:47 PM on November 3, 2004


dreama: KJS: I know we've butted heads about the red-blue/rural-urban thing in the past, and I think you're right that it isn't fair to assume that just because someone is from somewhere red, they are a christian neanderthal bigot, just as it isn't fair for people to assume that just because I'm American, I'm a christian neanderthal bigot. But you know what? Forty percent isn't enough. It wasn't and it isn't. So maybe instead of getting offended at us, you should talk to your neighbors. They're the one's making you look bad.

Fourty percent isn't enough for what? It seems to be enough that we elected a Democratic Senator into office unlike the blue state of PA, and unlike the blue state of NH. It is enough to force a periodic changing of the guard in the statehouse and govenor's mansion, which forces some degree of bipartisanship.

The differences between red and blue states is quirk of statistics due to the demands of the electoral college, and the fickleness of election year voters. New Hampshire is a blue state by 1% of the vote. What is being said here is that we should love people from New Hampshire because it's a blue state and hate people from New Mexico because it is a red state. Sneeches on the beaches time.

I talk to my neigbors, I talk to the people on my bus (split between two Kerry voters and one Bush voter this morning), I talk to my co-workers, the people who fix me my bagel at lunch, and sometimes strangers on the street.

The problem is not with my neighbors, the problem is that you only see my neighbors, when they validate your prejudiced view of the world as the poor little multiculturalist from New York surrounded hicks. You don't see my neighbors when they vote for Kerry. You don't see them when they vote for Byah. You don't see them when they are black. You don't see them when they speak better Spanish than English. You don't see them when they live on the streets. You don't see them when they are Jewish, Muslim, Orthodox, Catholic, or Pagan.

When you look west past Pennsylvania, you put on red collored glasses so you can see only what you want to see, an ignorant horde on the virge of a civil war. When you look north you put on blue collored glasses so you only see what you want to see, nice multicultural liberals isolated into a narrow band of cities.

You don't know what my neighbors look like much less their politics. From our previous conversations, I don't think you even care. Something about the stereotype you have of the rest of America seems to be important to you, but I'm feeling tired and burnt out so I don't know if I really want to know why.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:52 PM on November 3, 2004



posted by graventy at 8:07 PM on November 3, 2004


Perhaps I feel just a bit lucky because I talk to people from around the world. People from India that have faced inter-religious terrorism on a yearly basis. People from China who don't sign petitions because it might hurt their career prospects. People from Turkey who face a much harder problem maintaining a secular state.

You're about to get luckier, because you will experience all that and more, first-hand, without even leaving your own home.
posted by bashos_frog at 8:07 PM on November 3, 2004


red state, blue state. the very use of the map is framing. you are being manipulated. the map is executed on the basis of area, while the vote is based on population and the election is based on number of electors. show me a map where the area of each state is adjusted proportional to it's population. then we have a visual aid we could learn from. what you have now is nothing more than a propoganda tool.
posted by quonsar at 8:09 PM on November 3, 2004


I've heard a lot of you say Bush ran on a pro-Gun, pro-God, anti-Gay campaign but I did watch the debates and Kerry did say he believed marriage was between a man and a woman and he did quote the Bible (and mentioned being an alter boy and so on), and he was out hunting a few days before the election. Maybe I'm just a redneck and don't understand. But to me it looks like Kerry was trying to look pro-God, pro-Gun, and anti-Gay marriage. But, I will concede the point that he did say he doesn't want God involved in his politics and he supports civil unions. Also, just under 60% of the population voted (most since 1968), not more or less 50% as I've seen stated.

And something I've seen is people mentioning how they want to move to another country (seriously or not). As a Republican I honestly believe that if Kerry won there would be hardly any talk of us wanting leave the country, but instead, of coming back stonger than ever to win the next election. That seems to be a fundamental difference I've noticed between the Dems and the GOP and if you really want to win America you concentrate on winning the American people over, not running them over on your way to Canada or Europe or wherever you feel is a better place than America.

And lots of kudos from the GOP to Kerry conceding this morning. He got a lot of respect from us for that as oppossed to drawing this out into legal battles. Again, the 2 cents from a Repub from a fly-over state. The ignorant, ill-informed, gun totting, God fearing, Bible thumping, backwoods non-elitist who has never been to Europe. To be honest those names always make me laugh. I do believe it is those of you in the large cities who have no idea what middle America is really like ;)
posted by Ron at 8:10 PM on November 3, 2004


This is a forward for Godspeed.
nobody we know owns anything
many of us will never own anything at all
we're tired of feeling bewildered
tired of helplessness
we want many, many things to end soon
these times, when everything is denied us
anything is possible
but everyday stubborn, clumsy, beautiful ideas
drop on the withering vine
we're tired of this state of affairs
we call to end paranoia, self-intimidation and fear
meanwhile, the world spins
as if nothing has happened at all
we're all still waiting
we dedicate this to everyone who couldn't afford
the thirty dollar price tag!
we dedicate this to girls kissing girls
boys kissing boys
girls kissing boys
and everything in between!
the future is bleak, uncertain, beautiful
tommorrow they might come and arrest us all
only if you listen closely can you hear the machines
beneath the sidewalk whipsering
the machines beneath the sidewalk are
always whispering
strive to listen close
please, try to be free
don't be afraid
the end of the world will never come
posted by angry modem at 8:10 PM on November 3, 2004


what you come away from with that red/blue state "map" is a visual of this vast sea of red. the stereotypes of masses of slobbering goon-like flyover land ruralites voting republican is only half true.
posted by quonsar at 8:13 PM on November 3, 2004


Well, as someone who had the relatively short wait of 8 hours at the polls last night, I can tell you that the 100% of people (who were eligible) turned out at my little precinct and we waited for a completely unacceptable amount of time to cast our ballots. Ballots that won't even be counted, probably, now that Kerry has conceded.

I only got through half this thread before I couldn't stomach the bile anymore. It's bad enough that the air on campus today was one of complete disbelief (how would you like to go through all that trouble, putting your life on hold, just to get slapped in the face?), but the reaction here is worse than I expected, and I expected it to be very bad.

Believe me, we were the classic case of voter disenfranchisement in Ohio this year. Longest lines in the nation? Suspciously, in the liberal-minority precincts. 2 voting machines to handle almost 2000 people? When they knew ahead of time how many people were registered to vote? Yeah, right, no fix there. They also didn't allow people to vote provisionally if they found "problems" with their voter registration. Absentee ballots, the other way the majority of students voted this year, will not matter in the final tally.

Blackwell & Co did their damndest to suppress new voters in OH. We've been getting praise all over the place for standing up and making an example of ourselves, but the truth is it was a completely unacceptable situation, and, apparently, all the effort was in vain.
posted by somethingotherthan at 8:13 PM on November 3, 2004


As a Republican I honestly believe that if Kerry won there would be hardly any talk of us wanting leave the country

That's because in your heart you know that Kerry wouldn't screw things up that much. I have no such confidence in Bush.

Now I must decide whether it is worth coming back to America, where my salary will be higher (at least until my job is offshored), but my safety will be compromised by Bush lack of attention to real security measures (securing chemical plants, inspecting cargo containers, etc.)

My wife is foreign, so I also have to consider the increased discrimination brought about by America's increased xenophobia. And I have to consider Bush's nutty approach to education, and how it will affect my (just barely pre-school) son.

Returning is not an easy decision.
posted by bashos_frog at 8:24 PM on November 3, 2004


I should have said that I am weighing all that against the possibility of making a positive impact on the direction of my country.
posted by bashos_frog at 8:25 PM on November 3, 2004


q - electoral-vote.com has had proportional maps like this.
posted by Krrrlson at 8:25 PM on November 3, 2004


meanwhile, I hear Ashcroft is resigning...
posted by protocool at 8:29 PM on November 3, 2004


Sore that the whole 'reckoning' thing didn't work out for you, fold?
Keep chasing that dream!
posted by darukaru at 8:41 PM on November 3, 2004


Lord wolf, why don't you show me all the conservatives here who claimed bush would lose and I'll show you a the liberals. Don't worry, it'll only take you second.

huh? i think you're confused mate.

you claimed that reading mefi prior to 11/2 that "Over and over again I've read comments that promised a kerry victory, that bush was dead in the water"

i counter-claimed that prior to 11/2, there were plenty of posts by both kerry supporters and bush supporters that asserted that bush would win in a landslide and that kerry was dead in the water.

why is it now my responsibility to show you posts from conservatives that stated bush was going to lose? (which there are: see the postings from early in the day in the exit poll thread).

You represent the worst of the dems.

sweet! in the check floating thread, i learned that i have street cred as a hardcore mothafuckin' criminal b/c i've floated checks before.

now i learn that i'm representin' the illest of the democrat posse. holla!

It's hard to discuss anything with someone who needs therapy.

that it is. [peers at justgary meaningfully]
posted by lord_wolf at 8:43 PM on November 3, 2004


squirrel: Your assessment of the lives of expats is uninformed and mean-spirited.

I'm talking about a very specific reason for leaving the United States that has come up repeatedly over the last six months. Roughly paraphrased: "I don't like that Bush won, I don't like what he plans to do in the future, so I'm going to leave the sinking ship, and move to Canada/Europe."

By all means, if I get an opportunity to spend a few years living overseas, I'll jump with both feet and grab with both hands. If I know of anybody who gets the chance to travel, I'd strongly suggest it.

I think it was quite clear from context that I wasn't talking about that kind of life overseas. What I'm talking about is a specific rationale that has been expressed over and over again by people who see themselves as political refugees because of the Bush presidency. I'm talking about people who will be more than happy to fiddle from a safe distance while the U.S. burns. The people who, like crasspastor, would call me an idiot for treating the ties of place, friendship and kinship to be so important that giving up on democracy is not an option I'm willing to accept. As a student of history, I know the U.S. has survived worse. I also know actual political refugees who have survived much worse.

crasspastor: I fully agree that we need to see ourselves as part of a global community. But I think another critical crisis is that we don't see ourselves as part of a place, a community. I think that we loose something when we remove place from community. I think that there are healthy forms of nationalism and regionalism that need to be cherished and fostered. We need slow food, local dialects, oral histories, and community arts.

This is my home. I don't want to see an unnecessary new-route interstate run through it. I don't want to see it converted to chain resturaunts and Walmarts, I don't want to see the wooded greenspaces around it that were cultivated over two generations destroyed.

This is my community. I don't want for the skatepunks I know to be drafted. I want my friends to have good health care and jobs. I want to replace the 3,000 jobs lost due to globalization.

So you come on here, and post this long screed about how we are idiots for loving the place we live in. That it we are a bunch of trained seals, that we should consider America "broken," and seek greener pastures. That we should pat you on the back and celebrate your wonderful multicultural kissing of Canadians and chatting up Japanese.

Let it burn, let it burn. Let Eric, a really cool kid who will be registering for selective service burn. Let Arianna who plans to be a vet when she grows up burn. Let the independently owned bookstores and groceries burn. Let the forest and farms burn. Let the dedicated teachers burn, the schools burn, and the kids in the schools burn.

If I start thinking like a political refugee, looking for a way out, that is what I leave behind. "Every little bit helps," the old lady said as she pissed in the sea. Perhaps the fire is beyond my control, perhaps I should just think of myself rather than the the places and people I love. But I'm a bit stubborn that way.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:00 PM on November 3, 2004


Thanks lord_wolf, that made me laugh for reals!

Bad ass mofo Demo. Hahaha.
posted by fenriq at 9:28 PM on November 3, 2004


Wow, it's 9:30 pm and about a hundred protestors just marched down my street. The cops are stopping traffic for them. They don't have any anti-Bush signs, just one that says "How did our oil get beneath their sand?"
posted by bendy at 9:34 PM on November 3, 2004


Quansar: think that if you really want to know what is going on in the United States, you need to not only size the map by population, but you also need to color the map by the spread between candidates. When you do that, the states break out into some interesting demographic groups. For example, although Ohio is red and Pennsylvania is blue, a better color coding would reveal that both of these states were very close. Indiana matches Kentucky and Tennessee, but Florida sticks out from the rest of the deep South. The Mississippi Valley probably pops out as distinct from the the plains, and the ambivalence of Nevada and New Mexico provides a nice contrast with Utah.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:48 PM on November 3, 2004


Thanks for the clarification, Kirk. You make some good points about community.
posted by squirrel at 9:49 PM on November 3, 2004


no problem, i'm probably more than a bit irritable this week.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:10 PM on November 3, 2004



We're more purple than you'd think.
posted by ook at 10:13 PM on November 3, 2004


America has become two communities.

One would live and let live, the other would round up the gays and burn them, chop down the forests and burn them, take all the objectionable books out of our libraries and burn them, take all the nude paintings out of our museums and burn them, invade any countries that look at us sideways and burn them, and finally tear up the constitution and burn it, too.

The community I belong to isn't forcing anyone to read anything objectionable, is forcing anyone to have an abortion, and isn't forcing anyone to marry their own gender. But that other community is coming for us with their torches lit.

When do you leave the place to burn, and when do you let them burn you?
posted by bashos_frog at 10:13 PM on November 3, 2004


(already regretting posting that inline; should've just linked to it. Damn. Too late now.)
posted by ook at 10:14 PM on November 3, 2004


isn't forcing anyone to have an abortion.
of course.
posted by bashos_frog at 10:15 PM on November 3, 2004


ook: You've seen the by-county version?
It's not looking very purple at all. I'm sure the 2004 election is roughly the same.
It's straight city vs. rural, and rural is winning.
posted by bashos_frog at 10:34 PM on November 3, 2004


The last 4 years have been some of the most unhappy and depressing of my life. We have a president who wipes his ass with the Constitution, completely ignores the economic concerns of average people, sends soldiers to die in a war based on a false premise, and leaves the middle class to shoulder the burden of paying for government services via payroll taxes in addition to income taxes while the wealthy gets a tax break. Everyday brings more bad news. I was unemployed for 2 years and now have a dead-end job that I hate. I make what I did in 2001; too bad that the cost of living has gone up.

Today I feel better than I have in 4 years. Why? Because instead of feeling powerless, fearful and fatalistic, I'm pissed and fed up. Maybe it's a product of my somewhat dysfunctional Irish Catholic upbringing, but being righteously angry is a great motivator. I cannot wait another 4 years for my life to get better. I'm going to do my damnest to find a job that allows me to do what I love. I'm going to do everything I can to Bush policy-proof my state and local government. Fuck the Red States - if they want to let greedy, craven political opportunists fuck them in the ass that's their business. I'm not, however, going to let them drag my ass over the barrel along with them anymore.
posted by echolalia67 at 10:50 PM on November 3, 2004


we have all got to pitch in. A lot.
So much work to be done, so little time.


Oh, give it a rest, Pollyanna. You're playing right into their hands, you know.
posted by rushmc at 11:00 PM on November 3, 2004


Don't you just love that one little section in South Dakota that's blindingly RED amidst such a huge sea of blue in ook's map?
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:09 PM on November 3, 2004


give it a rest, Pollyanna

Good reference.

Amidst a sea of Pollyannas, we Red Chiefs (sorry about the color, talk to O. Henry) are hard-pressed to be heard.
posted by kamylyon at 11:13 PM on November 3, 2004



Another factor is demography. States with more residents on Social Security, Medicare and other federal entitlements tend to rank high.



Yeah, that might be true of California, but how do you explain the ratio of tax dollars paid out/federal money coming in the other Blue States? Certainly they can't all skew younger, population wise, and it still doesn't change the fact that a big chunk of the federal money used by Red States is coming from Blue States. Additionally, the electoral college is weighed in favor of the Red States in terms of the ratio of population per electoral votes. So we get a disproportionally low payout of federal money for what we pay in and our electoral votes are disproportionally low given the number of people who live here versus a low population state. Smells like taxation without adequate representation to me.
posted by echolalia67 at 11:14 PM on November 3, 2004


CD: that is Shannon County, pop. 12,466
posted by bashos_frog at 11:45 PM on November 3, 2004


Of the nation's counties, Shannon County had the highest percentage American Indian population (94.2%); the percentage of people under age 18 (45%) was second highest.
posted by bashos_frog at 11:51 PM on November 3, 2004


It's straight city vs. rural, and rural is winning.

You're right, of course. And here that purple state-by-state map was making me so much more melting-pot hopeful.

Somebody tell me -- why are the ones least at risk from terrorist attacks supporting the guy who made threats of terrorism his main focus? And what is it about living in cities that makes people more liberal?
posted by ook at 11:59 PM on November 3, 2004


Ballots that won't even be counted, probably, now that Kerry has conceded.

Discussed here.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:11 AM on November 4, 2004


And what is it about living in cities that makes people more liberal?

Maybe something to do with being in close quarters with a whole bunch of different looking, different sounding, people you didn't know from birth, and having to get along with them because you're going to see them often. Cities breed tolerance. Small towns breed fear of strangers.
posted by bashos_frog at 12:59 AM on November 4, 2004


damn, thanks, bashos_frog, for that map and that site. i didn't even know about that service. NOW THAT'S GOOD GUB'MINT!
posted by sklero at 1:51 AM on November 4, 2004


Many liberals underestimated the number of people who have core family values, and thought something like gay marriage is relevant to most people's lives. The problem with many liberals is they don't see the big picture, always just the issues that affect them - a myopic view that is caused by always focussing on the individual, not society as a whole. If you think that way, you can't get the silent majority to vote your way. We've seen that happen. You can either learn the lesson or move to another country.
posted by SpaceCadet at 2:18 AM on November 4, 2004


Explain to me how gay marriage "is relevant to most people's lives." I really want to know.

I've met quite a few folks from the red states, mostly conservative, and the consensus seemed to be: Well, I don't understand/like gays, but it's not an issue that's worth tampering with the Constitution.

I have a feeling that without Rove and Co. fanning the flames, gay marriage would have been a very minor issue. Their ability to use it as a wedge really impresses me, in a noxious way.
posted by bashos_frog at 2:51 AM on November 4, 2004


dejah420 -- 11 states...ELEVEN...voted to amend their constitutions to write in discrimination. Eleven.

Why do you think it was only "11"?

I'm guessing you'll see the exact same strategy employed again. I'm also guessing that Terry McAuliffe won't realize it in time. I'm also guessing it will work again.
posted by RavinDave at 3:32 AM on November 4, 2004


Explain to me how gay marriage "is relevant to most people's lives." I really want to know.

I think you misunderstood me bashos_frog. I did not say *I* thought gay marriage is relevant to most people's lives. I said liberals - many of them not even gay - thought this was a major issue in most people's lives, because they clearly gave it so much importance and attention. They reaped a small harvest out of this because gay marriage is frankly irrelevant to most US voters. They should learn the lesson that if they want to get the attention of the majority they should not champion so vociferously such single issues that effect only a small minority. They can learn that lesson or be continuously ignored by the majority.
posted by SpaceCadet at 4:18 AM on November 4, 2004


Metafilter and Liberals: back to being "just" a nuissance.
posted by ParisParamus at 4:27 AM on November 4, 2004


Why did you vote for bush?
posted by fullerine at 4:53 AM on November 4, 2004


They should learn the lesson that if they want to get the attention of the majority they should not champion so vociferously such single issues that effect only a small minority.

I'm sorry, but I'm a liberal for exactly that reason. I don't want to deny a minority their equal rights just because the majority don't care--hell, it's our responsibility as Americans to ensure that everyone has a voice. God help me if I ever forsake that goal just for the sake of winning an election.
posted by turaho at 5:17 AM on November 4, 2004


fullerine: some interesting reasons on that list, personally I loved the guy who had voted for Bush because he's a protestant. I guess basically you just can't trust the catholics eh?

Or there's "I voted for President Bush because I see all the crisis level issues as originating from the leadership of the Democrat Party."
posted by biffa at 5:27 AM on November 4, 2004


Turaho: I think the Almighty would say you still need to suffer some more before you are helped.

Your right to have your "single issue" triumph doesn't preempt my right not to be appalled by it.

No one is advocating persecution of gays. But that doesn't mean gays are entitled to a government fiat that they can marry.

If the gay community was smart, it would champion civil unions, and no more. Not in ten thousand years will gay marriage ever be widely accepted in the United States--IT'S OVER, JOHNNY AND JOHNNY.

Personally, I don't even think there should be heterosexual marriages--only government sanctioned civil unions--leave marriage definitions to your local church, mosque or shul.

But the larger issue is that the Left is too arrogant to even see that it defeats itself. Those protests during the RNC Convention? Michael Moore's lies? John Kerry's lies about Iraq? Dan Rather's lies? They probably lost Kerry a state or two.

WAKE UP. WE NEED A SANE PROGRESSIVE AGENDA.
posted by ParisParamus at 5:41 AM on November 4, 2004


how out of touch metafilter is with middle america

If MeFi were in touch with middle america, I wouldn't be here.


And who the hell wants to touch the middle of JesusLand? Ewww, nasty!!!
posted by nofundy at 5:43 AM on November 4, 2004


From NRO Corner:
WHISPERING W [KJL]
Stanley, as I noted at least once in these parts during the campaign, I was increasingly hopeful about a win once I started wearing W. around New York and parts. In the East Village, people would come up to me and whisper, "I love your pin." or "Go Bush!" or "I'm not the only one!" I really think people were afraid to say they were for W. Might account for some of the polling, for sure. And would explain why people who gave him high job-approval or confidence marks still told phone pollster they were voting for the more acceptable one.
posted by ParisParamus at 5:53 AM on November 4, 2004


No one is advocating persecution of blacks. But that doesn't mean blacks are entitled to a government fiat that they can vote.

No one is advocating persecution of women. But that doesn't mean women are entitled to a government fiat that they can own property.

No one is advocating persecution of jews. But that doesn't mean jews are entitled to a government fiat that they can drive cars*.

*One of the first privileges to be taken away from the Jews of Germany in the 30s
posted by bashos_frog at 6:07 AM on November 4, 2004


Not in ten thousand years will gay marriage ever be widely accepted in the United States.

I think you're wrong about that. The resistance now is pretty much similar to the resistance at the beginning of the civil rights era. If you took someone from 1970 and popped them into 2004m they'd be absolutely astonished at the level of casual acceptance of homosexuality in US society today. Mainstream acceptance—like gays on TV shows (Billy Crystal's character on "Soap" was very controversial just because he was gay and for no other reason). You can argue that it's invalid to extrapolate a rate of change from this, but on the other hand there are a whole bunch of civil liberty examples where people made the same case that you're making today. To wit, that people will tolerate only so much, and that grudgingly, but that there's a limit they will not cross. Yet, history has demonstrated over and over again that American culture is far more willing to be expansive about civil liberties of marginalized groups than the people who resist the expansion expect. It wasn't that long ago that many, many people would have confidently predicted that an interracial couple on the television would have sent a quarter of America into rioting.

Gay marriage was a successful wedge issue for the Republicans this election for exactly the same reason that people are nervous about cultural liberalism: it's because they've seen a lot of change, and they are fearful that it will be excessive, that there will be too much change. This is true of almost everyone—almost everyone is a little bit conservative. People are more afraid of cultural liberalism than cultural conservatism because cultural liberalism has been winning all the battles for the last seventy years. Everyone is a little afraid of it; that means that there's a core group that are very, very afraid of it and who can be mobilized to make a difference in a close election. This is a wedge issue that's most effective now—now when there's still a considerable amount of discomfort related to homosexuality. But that diminishes every year, it's undeniable that it has. Why would it stop? That majority of Americans oppose gay marriage but support civil unions. Yet, the people that were mobilized to vote against Kerry on the basis of gey marriage largely oppose even civil unions. Those people are not the foreward edge of shifting American throught, they're the trailing edge.

They think they can turn the crowd around. But there are no cultural signs that theyre having any success at convincing the rest of America to become more homophobic, rather than less. What they've had success doing is to make a difference at the margins where their relatively small numbers are not a hindrance, or the remoteness of a particular issue puts it mostly off the radar of the majority. They've convinced people that gay marriages are going to happen any moment now, and it wasn't hard to convince the majority to fear that because the majority isn't comfortable with it. There's no indication that they've convinced the majority to start becoming less tolerant of homosexuality than they already are.

There's a lesson here for liberals, as well. If the majority is moving in some direction, it's not that terribly hard to appeal to their instinctive fear of change and slow the movement down a little. Look at what happen to Gingrich in '94. But just because you can slow it down, because people think things are happening too fast, is a long, long way from convincing them to reverse direction. It's easy for partisans of one variety or another to think that a success in slowing the tide means that reversing the tide is within their grasp. But there's a lot of reasons to suspect that that's rarely the case.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:14 AM on November 4, 2004


Maybe if German Jews had asked for Government volkswagens and not fiats there wouldn't have been so many problems?
posted by biffa at 6:22 AM on November 4, 2004


Being against gay marriage (as opposed to civil unions) is not homophobic. It's more akin to opposing the re-naming of "apple" as "pear." Except that gay marriage is offensive to many, for many reasons.

Also, I think it's really offensive to equate racial civil rights with gay marriage.
posted by ParisParamus at 6:28 AM on November 4, 2004


But the larger issue is that the Left is too arrogant to even see that it defeats itself. Those protests during the RNC Convention? Michael Moore's lies? John Kerry's lies about Iraq? Dan Rather's lies? They probably lost Kerry a state or two.

I love how much denial Republicans who aren't flat-out bigots want to put on themselves. Dude, check the numbers: Kerry won the liberals AND the moderates. 22% of the electorate put "moral values" as their top issue, almost all of them voted for Bush. Stop acting like the war, or the economy, or health care suddenly has 70% approval. Karl Rove won this for Bush by screaming God Hates Fags in eleven states and mailing out flyers saying Kerry would ban the bible. And Republicans have the tenacity to continue with the "liberal hate" rhetoric? Wow.

Also, I think it's really offensive to equate racial civil rights with gay marriage.

I think it's offensive not to. But care to explain why not?
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 6:37 AM on November 4, 2004


I'm sure the people who installed separate water fountains for colored folks thought they were mighty progressive, too. "I mean, it's not like we're denying them their right to drink water!"

Also, I think it's really offensive to equate racial civil rights with gay marriage.

If the point I was trying to prove was that the persecution of gays in this country is equal in every way to the persecution of racial minorities in this country, then I could understand your offense. But that's not what I'm arguing, you know that, and you're trying to score points by misrepresenting my argument.

And anyway, I think it's really offensive to equate gay marriage with apples. So there!
posted by turaho at 6:48 AM on November 4, 2004


sfenders: You know, it's probably not a good idea to lump all of Christianity in with "neanderthal" and "bigot".

I know. That's why I used Christian to modify bigot and not the other way around.
posted by dame at 6:57 AM on November 4, 2004


Answer: there's no significant part of the electorate arguing that gays should be segregated, etc. The issue is artificially equating an institution which centers around perpetuating humanity, with one that, by definition, does not.

Again, I'm not so interested what you think about gay rights. My point is the masochism of not realizing that your overall agenda (and part of mine) loses when gay rights are pushed. Masochistic, selfish, self-defeating and, really, stupid strategery!
posted by ParisParamus at 7:23 AM on November 4, 2004


biffa is funny
posted by muckster at 7:30 AM on November 4, 2004


an institution which centers around perpetuating humanity

I would have no problem with the gov't denying the right to marry to gays, if they would also deny it to infertile couples, and make both contraception and abortion illegal for married folks.

It's all about the babies, right?
posted by bashos_frog at 7:33 AM on November 4, 2004


Answer: there's no significant part of the electorate arguing that gays should be segregated, etc.

Are you in abject fucking DENIAL, man? Did you read the text of some of these amendments? How is not allowing one's partner parental control vs. a distant relative, or hospital visitation rights, or inheritance rights, not allowing them to adopt, or file joint tax returns, NOT segregation?

My point is the masochism of not realizing that your overall agenda (and part of mine) loses when gay rights are pushed.

"Dear god, those negroes want to use the same DRINKING FOUNTAINS now?"

Gay rights means EQUAL rights, and yes, you're stubborn and ignorant if you keep pretending that's not what this is a fight for.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 7:34 AM on November 4, 2004


XQUZYPHYR, turaho:
I've got to sleep. Please keep up the good fight.

we shall fight on the blogs, we shall fight on the talk shows, we shall fight in the chat rooms and in the streets, we shall fight in the malls; we shall never surrender
posted by bashos_frog at 7:37 AM on November 4, 2004


My point is the masochism of not realizing that your overall agenda (and part of mine) loses when gay rights are pushed.

I'm not kidding myself into thinking this is the popular view. But I think it's the right view, and I believe history will bear me out.

I would rather fight the good fight now and see real change happen in 20 years than surrender my values just so I can gloat about my candidate's victory in a fucking Metafilter thread.
posted by turaho at 7:47 AM on November 4, 2004


Let's all buy assault rifles and fuck some shit up!

But seriously, I think that this quote taken from writer Chris Mooney's blog, quoting the NYT, is perfect:

As Garry Wills notes in the Times today, the issue dividing this country is quite literally faith versus reason....Wills helpfully asks, "Can a people that believes more fervently in the Virgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened nation?"

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/04/opinion/04wills.html?th

And that's the thing, the way that conservatives wrap themselves in moral values, biblical precepts, and "natural law" has little or nothing to do with the the enlightened values of the founding fathers.

When they point to the bible and bash Gays, evolution and the fossil record or anything else it's purely selective. They ignore biblical precepts that we now don't agree with, ie. polygamy (*which is a core conservative reason against Gay marriage, that if you legalize gay marriage, we'll soon have polygamy or bestiality, even though polygamy was perfectly OK in the bible.) Also of course, slavery was perfectly fine according to the bible, as was stoning to death women who had sex outside of marriage, animal sacrifice, etc.

My question, Is America rejecting it's place as a modern nation?
posted by zebra_monkey at 7:49 AM on November 4, 2004


My best friend, who's gay, spoke for quite a few gays and lesbians when he told me months ago that all the talk about gay marriage made him nervous because he feared a backlash. Of course he wants gay marriage, as do many people, but right now he'd be happy just to have basic anti-discrimination laws concerning sexual orientation. And some basic rights like those xquzyphyr mentions above.

So in this sense PP is right. Gay marriage has freaked out a lot of people and it mobilized them. It's not freaking out the moderate right and the center—as I argued with steve@ months ago, my father, who definitely voted for Bush, expressed an uneasiness about Bush because of Bush's support of an amendment. But the hard right, they're a different story. They're really freaked about gay marriage.

On the other hand, the majority of Americans by a pretty big margin—not a few percent but ten to twenty percent—support civil unions. Yet now we have situations like the one in Ohio where civil unions are outlawed. This is a bad thing.

When my friend and I talked about this, I made the argument that I make above, that is that the trend is unambiguously toward gay marriage, it's going to happen eventually. And I still think that. But the Mass. gay marriages very possibly could have cost Dems this election. And costing Dems this election may mean a great deal, including SCOTUS justices.

Now, I'm a pragmatist. To my mind, if the choice is fifteen years to US-wide gay marriages done slyly, a bit at a time, advocating a bit at a time, or twenty-five years to gay marriages by fighting the good fight and never compromising...I'll choose the former. Because those are ten years that actual people, actual gay couples, will have that they otherwise wouldn't.

On Preview: I wrote the above while turaho wrote his/hers. But note that my point was that it well may be the case that "fighting the good fight", in this sense, means it'll take longer to get there, not shorter.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:54 AM on November 4, 2004


I love how someone can write "the Republicans are in denial."

ARE YOU A FUCKING MENTAL PATIENT? YOU ARE IN DENIAL.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:55 AM on November 4, 2004


They should learn the lesson that if they want to get the attention of the majority they should not champion so vociferously such single issues that effect only a small minority.

I'm sorry, but I'm a liberal for exactly that reason. I don't want to deny a minority their equal rights just because the majority don't care--hell, it's our responsibility as Americans to ensure that everyone has a voice. God help me if I ever forsake that goal just for the sake of winning an election.


turaho, you are very noble and caring toward only a small minority of people, it would seem. What about the majority of people and their day-to-day life? You're only interested in people if they're labelled "minority"; it's as if the majority live in a vacuum without any problems of their own.
posted by SpaceCadet at 7:56 AM on November 4, 2004


And for bonus points: first a Bush victory, and now ARAFAT IS DEAD!!!!!!

Maybe Osama will be gone this week too? And how rich if he was actually killed before the election, but Bush didn't want that to be known until after!
posted by ParisParamus at 7:57 AM on November 4, 2004


I love how someone can write "the Republicans are in denial." ARE YOU A FUCKING MENTAL PATIENT? YOU ARE IN DENIAL.

Well, that settles everything, then.

Interesting, suddenly the rambling troll ParisParamus is back, conincidentally after everyone countered his nonsense. Funny, that.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 8:04 AM on November 4, 2004


turaho, you are very noble and caring toward only a small minority of people, it would seem. What about the majority of people and their day-to-day life? You're only interested in people if they're labelled "minority"; it's as if the majority live in a vacuum without any problems of their own.

When you can make a single valid point about the damage domestic partnership rights will do to the majority of Americans, this will be relevant.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 8:07 AM on November 4, 2004


Perhaps you've misinterpreted what I'm saying, SpaceCadet. I'm also for marriage rights for heterosexual couples. Fighting for the rights of the minority does not equal denying those same rights to the majority.
posted by turaho at 8:07 AM on November 4, 2004


How sweet that Arafat dies after knowing Bush got reelected. Maybe Osama's kidneys will go now too...
posted by ParisParamus at 8:09 AM on November 4, 2004


If you don't have a lot of confidence in your arguments, PP, maybe you should just drop out of the discussion we're having instead of trying to change the subject.
posted by turaho at 8:16 AM on November 4, 2004


"I'm in trouble! Shields up! Start talking about random crap!"
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 8:17 AM on November 4, 2004


You're only interested in people if they're labelled "minority"; it's as if the majority live in a vacuum without any problems of their own.

Boo hoo... Let's keep whooping it up for that 51% mandate buddy! You've just SWEPT THE NATION with your positive message of hope, God and the Virgin Birth.

Now that you have a slim majority in the government, let's take this opportunity to outlaw sodomy (hiring police to hang out in everyone's bedroom and make sure couples are doing it missionary), institute the Lord's Prayer in the public schools (and put all those pesky non-Christians in their place, and make sure they get the shit beat out of them when they don't accept Jesus as their savior at 8 a.m. every school day) , make abortion illegal and punish abortion providers with the death penality, prohibit contraception and tell everyone how condoms don't actually protect against STDs or prevent pregnancy, prohibit stem cell research and punish researchers as criminals, deny climate change even as the Arctic is melting into the sea, spend billions of tax dollars on a bullshit war, while decrying tax and spend liberals, etc.

I'm so tired of the anti-science, anti-rational - "faith-based" - crowd whose sole expertise seems to be promoting their own hateful, interpretation of the Bible, fearmongering and keeping people stupid and women barefoot and pregnant. If conservatives push their full, nutty, agenda on the 48% of America that didn't vote their way, they'll have a backlash like they've never seen before. And don't tell me a majority of the people spoke. The energy that brought dems out to vote en masse isn't going away. I can't wait for a revitalized Left in this country! As Bushy would say, "Bring it on!"
posted by zebra_monkey at 8:29 AM on November 4, 2004


echolalia67, RIGHT ON!

Motivation can come from anywhere and anger is a good one. I've been angry and misusing that anger to respond to childish personal attacks. I'm going to try harder to redirect my anger into a positive outlet.

And I'm sure my detractors will let me know when I stray.

But I like your attitude and will try to mirror it. Yesterday was the feel like shit after getting kicked in the nuts by the south and midwest. Today is the regathering and setting out a new plan.

Thanks for making me feel hopeful again. We need a nation just like you. Or at least a few million more than we've got now.

On Preview: Also very well said zebra_monkey!
posted by fenriq at 8:31 AM on November 4, 2004


SpaceCadet, what the heck are you talking about? How does giving minorities the same rights as everyone else harm -- or even vaguely affect -- the majority?

Anyway. The gay marriage thing increased turnout among the kind of people who would never, ever vote democratic in any case -- there's nothing to be gained for the dems by trying to appeal to those people. Best we can do is slow down a bit, as EB suggests, and try not to rile them up. Which I find extremely disappointing personally, but it's true: we overreached, and scared the bigots and homophobes enough to turn out to vote against us.

I think the scared-of-the-terrorists crowd would've been a better group to go after. The Republicans did a masterful job of painting themselves as the ones who would keep the country safe -- this despite years of failure at just that. There's got to be a way to demonstrate that civil liberties and safety aren't mutually exclusive, that you can be for equal rights and against the terrorists at the same time.
posted by ook at 8:33 AM on November 4, 2004


Sure, ook. You'd have to be a total delusionist to think that Clinton's 8 years of Kerry-like law enforcement terrorism approach didn't cause Osama to become Osama. Contrast that with Bush: the world is now safe, and getting safer daily (except, perhaps, in your mind).
posted by ParisParamus at 8:44 AM on November 4, 2004


Actually, the Republicans did a mediocre job at selling Bush; had they done better, Bush would have won 70-30.
posted by ParisParamus at 8:45 AM on November 4, 2004


KJS: Forty percent wasn't enough to keep That Man out of office. If this were a parliamentary system, it would be different. But it's winner take all and forty percent is not a majority.

And that's why I care. Because the people keeping my country from being what it ought to be, the people who think morals means telling others what to do, the people who think the appropriate reaction to something they just watched on TV is to kill 100,000 people are the majority not here, but there.

As bashos_frog put it:

The community I belong to isn't forcing anyone to read anything objectionable, is forcing anyone to have an abortion, and isn't forcing anyone to marry their own gender. But that other community is coming for us with their torches lit.

It makes me heartsick. It kills me.

And this liberal progress that some may think is going to fast, it's that progress that lets me exist at all, much less live my life with the opportunitites I've had. In 1979, when my (white) mother was pregnant with me, she and my father were pulled over because cops thought that a white woman with a black man must be in some sort of danger. The distance between then and now, Orange County and Brooklyn—where I see mixed couples every single day—cannot be traversed too fast.

When she was 18, my mother had an illegal abortion. If I get stuck, I can walk down to Planned Parenthood as soon as I know and get a very safe one.

If I had been born a generation earlier, I would have been told that because I'm brown and because I'm a girl, I can't be what I am. It would have been a knock-down battle just to get people to give me a chance.

If my queerbo friends had been born a generation earlier, they wouldn't be as free as they are today. They wouldn't have been able to come out in college; they wouldn't have the supportive community they have today; they might not have even dreamed of having kids.

People who think that all that progress is too much too far too fast aren't just making some abstract argument. They are condemning everything I cherish, everything I am. And they are the majority in your state. They are who the politicians and pundits court when they denounce some "Northeastern liberal elite."

If you are some straight white guy, you can call for tolerance, for understanding, for "respecting Middle America" and the values of the past—you have that luxury. I don't. And the fact is, when I am in a big city, I am nothing remarkable. But when I walk into some bar, some restaurant somewhere else in this country, I get a palpable air of "Who the fuck are you?"

So there you have it. That's why it's so damn important to me. Because it is terribly, terribly personal. And I don't want to be in charge; I don't want to be elite. I want a government that reflects me and beyond that, I want to be left alone.
posted by dame at 8:47 AM on November 4, 2004


Maybe the methane-belching bacteria on Triton are doing better than us? I mean, if there's life on Saturn's moon Triton, the election doesn't matter as much to me. Makes me less worried about global warming, the hate-mongering of the fundamentalists, the House of Bush, etc. Because I know.. I KNOW.. things are better on Triton. I bet they're all just chilling on Triton.
posted by zebra_monkey at 8:47 AM on November 4, 2004


Actually, the Republicans did a mediocre job at selling Bush; had they done better, Bush would have won 70-30.

Not necessarily. Obviously we won't agree that the product was inferior, (and its difficult to make any meaningful assessment as to what that means) but if you accept the possibility that it was inferior, then selling it such that victory was achieved is actually quite a feat. VHS over Betamax equivalence. Considering some of the advantages Kerry would appear to have had, eg record in vietnam, never kicked off a war on dubious grounds (the usual MeFi list) and the fact that they were effectively negated could be seen as an achievement, though not one I'll be celebrating any time soon.
posted by biffa at 9:04 AM on November 4, 2004


Many liberals underestimated the number of people who have core family values

Like hatred, bigotry, and small-mindedness? Manson family values, maybe.
posted by rushmc at 9:07 AM on November 4, 2004


If you are some straight white guy, you can call for tolerance, for understanding, for "respecting Middle America" and the values of the past—you have that luxury. I don't.

That's not a luxury, that's reality. You're stuck with those people no less than I'm stuck with those people. The trick is to keep them from getting in our way. And they can get in our way because, you know, this is a democracy.

One of the reasons that Christian conservatives have become as influential in American life is because they learned this lesson in the last twenty years. They stopped fighting the national battles they couldn't win, and, instead, picked local battles they could win and built an organization that could have a national influence in the background. They spent a lot of time and effort trying to fight Roe v. Wade directly, and they failed. Because most Americans support abortion rights. They've had success when they've gone after it indirectly.

There's every reason to believe that on a local level we can get gay rights legislation passed. It's too early to take the most sensitive issue—gay marriage—and put it in the national forum.

Your argument that it personally affects you is a bad argument. A very good example of how this is the case is AZT with regard to AIDS. When it appeared that AZT was effective, for supposed humanitarian reasons the approval process was short-circuited and a lot of resources went into putting a lot of people on an AZT regimen. And the thing is, it did save some people's lives. There are people alive today that wouldn't be alive if they hadn't been put on AZT when they were. Sadly, however, it turns out that AZT isn't as effective as they had hoped, and the completion of the proper trials would have demonstrated this. Were that to have happened, some people would have died that otherwise would not have died, but more effective drugs and therapies would have been found sooner and even more people would have been saved. Now, are you really going to argue that just because something affects you positively that it simply doesn't matter if it very well may affect ten other people negatively? That's a selfish argument. Far more than the one you're condemning.

There is always going to be a reactionary crowd in any culture. In a democracy, you have to deal with them politically, there's no avoiding it. You must avoid doing things that gives them legitimacy, a place to stand where they can push back. Anything that builds a bridge between those extremists and the not-as-extremists is very dangerous and can backfire. I think that making gay marriage an issue is an example of this. Civil unions, on the other hand, is not. And the extremists are right: it's only a hop, skip, and a jump from civil unions to gay marriage. So maybe it's better not to poke at the wasp nest, yes?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:24 AM on November 4, 2004


Well said, EB, every single time.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 9:44 AM on November 4, 2004


You've just SWEPT THE NATION with your positive message of hope, God and the Virgin Birth.

Many liberals underestimated the number of people who have core family values

Like hatred, bigotry, and small-mindedness? Manson family values, maybe.


I think there are a few people here who are more than a little bitter about the election result.

[/understatement]
posted by SpaceCadet at 9:45 AM on November 4, 2004


Sullivan has been getting some lovely emails.
posted by homunculus at 9:48 AM on November 4, 2004


Bligh, I don't want to argue with you. That rant wasn't about what I think we should do. It was a response to KJS's question as to why this is so important to me. I don't know what to do, frankly; I'm still trying to decide if I want to stay and play this bullshit game of appeasing people's bigotry to get half of what I want. You are pragmatic, sure, but I don't know if I am capable of being so. I don't know if I prefer to selfishly protect my conscience or to join you in legitimizing ugliness in order to get a bit of something (which is what "not poking the wasp nest" is).

What I do know though, is that you are arguing from a point of (relative) luxury. I'm a big kid, but it still hurts like all hell to know that there are plenty of people—supposedly your countryfolks—who think the progress that made me close to equal is evil. And defending your right to be is tiring.
posted by dame at 9:51 AM on November 4, 2004


I think what we're seeing now on the gay marriage issue has gone beyond backlash. Those fighting to deny equal rights to homosexuals are the aggressors now. It wasn't like eleven states voted down a proposal to legalize gay marriage--eleven states ran initiatives to outlaw it completely and they won. Those victories say that there are a lot of people out there who absolutely refuse to negotiate.

I don't think the proper response is to retreat and offer up compromises. It's to stand firm in our dedication to the principle that this country was founded on and that we still find ourselves fighting for more than two centuries later--equality for everyone.
posted by turaho at 10:19 AM on November 4, 2004


There's every reason to believe that on a local level we can get gay rights legislation passed. It's too early to take the most sensitive issue—gay marriage—and put it in the national forum.

It wasn't US who put gay marriage in the national forum. It's never us who have the luxury of picking and choosing what issues the GOP will use to get votes. How many times do i and others have to say that? If a straight mayor (of SF or New Paltz), or a gay couple in Massachusetts, make decisions about their lives, it's not some monolithic block of gay radicals pushing something. There were gay weddings in Hawaii 10 years ago. There are gay weddings in Reform synagogues every day for the past 4 years. It's not supposed to be a problem "in the national forum" to try to live your life.

Your attitude, and the blame you place, is woefully misguided. You've really internalized the GOP spin on this.

And those state amendments (with more to come) immediately made ANY local legislation in those states unconstitutional.
posted by amberglow at 10:24 AM on November 4, 2004


The world is now safe! Thanks, PP!

~chortle~*

because i've always wanted to do that
posted by adampsyche at 10:33 AM on November 4, 2004


Individuals and couple take actions to improve their lives every day. It's not putting anything in the national forum.

For one small example, every single year for the past 10? (well before this administration), there are protests at our City Hall where gay and lesbian couples present marriage licenses to the City Clerk on Valentine's Day. It's been going on for years, and they get ripped up each year. Funny--i guess their little ritual each year is putting gay marriage in the national forum too? Not.
posted by amberglow at 10:36 AM on November 4, 2004


Hear, hear amberglow!

Even dark-ages, Catholic and ultra-macho Spain has now legalized gay marriage, with only a few officious peeps from the most reactionary forces.

Increasingly, it seems the U.S. - supposed to be a new country, with no baggage - is becoming backward and fanatical and ugly, like Spain during the inquisition.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 10:42 AM on November 4, 2004


Christ, I just don't know. I just don't know what to do. That anybody could write (to Andrew Sullivan) "You should be EXTREMELY GRATEFUL that we even let you write a very public and influential blog, instead of suppressing your treasonous views" and consider himself a "true American" just make me nauseous. That anybody on earth could vote for Bush, after four years of lies, failure, and death, just makes me ill.

At least Paris has finally learned how to spell "delusional". Almost. So that's something. Now if we could just teach him what it means...
posted by ook at 10:43 AM on November 4, 2004


Even if Roe v. Wade were overturned, it would revert to the states and you know that the blue states will not be criminalizing abortion no matter who's in the White House.

Sullivan had a good bit on the importance of federalism and states rights (an interesting twist) in a right-wing, culture war-ridden country. Blue states as enclaves of the Left, Red for the Right. Live and let live.

Of course, the rest of the world will fall victim to preemptive war, and it sounds a little like burying your head in the sand and hoping the Christians go away...

Also, let's not forget Illinois... We did a good job out here. Obama, Melissa Bean, Kerry state. Chicago has low rents, when compared with other blue states, and a nice lake front.

Translation: Poor, young liberals, get your asses out here!!
posted by zebra_monkey at 10:56 AM on November 4, 2004


Juan Cole has an interesting suggestion for how Democrats can win the gay marriage issue:
The...presidential candidate should start a campaign to get the goddamn Federal government out of the marriage business. It has to be framed that way. Marriage should be a faith-based institution and we should turn it over to the churches. If someone doesn't want to be married in a church, then the Federal government can offer them a legal civil contract (this is a better name for it than civil union).
posted by kirkaracha at 11:06 AM on November 4, 2004


Gay marriage is important to me, not only because I have many dear gay, married friends, but because every day that another couple as committed and dedicated to each other as my husband and I are are not allowed to marry because of arbitrary prejudice, my own marriage is tarnished a little.

Note that Massachusetts, the only state with legal same-sex marriage, also has the lowest divorce rate in the nation.

Denmark, Belgium, Canada, and Spain all have same-sex marriage. It's the right thing to do. Minds will change.

All of the states that outlawed gay marriage this November had laws against interracial marriage in my lifetime. Legal apartheid ended in South Africa, and it will end in the United States of America.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:11 AM on November 4, 2004


I like Juan Cole's suggestion a lot; and I look forward to singing at a lot of same-sex weddings in my own Episcopal church.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:12 AM on November 4, 2004


Did he concede too early?
posted by fullerine at 11:17 AM on November 4, 2004


There is always going to be a reactionary crowd in any culture.

Things change when that crowd becomes the majority.

Increasingly, it seems the U.S. - supposed to be a new country, with no baggage - is becoming backward and fanatical and ugly, like Spain during the inquisition.

It just took a seven-league-boots step in that direction.
posted by rushmc at 11:18 AM on November 4, 2004


> There is always going to be a reactionary crowd in any culture.

Things change when that crowd becomes the majority.


Or rather, they don't.
posted by biffa at 11:45 AM on November 4, 2004


fullerine, and so it begins, the very messy cycle of election fixing that many of us suspected but had nothing to go on.

If Kerry actually wins Ohio in the recount and provisional ballot count, then does that mean he's actually the next president even though he conceded the race?

What are the next steps in this process?

Why isn't this being shouted from the rooftops and on every news outlet there is?
posted by fenriq at 11:45 AM on November 4, 2004


Because it won't happen. Sorry. Whether it's legitemate or just Diebold, I have no idea, but there's enough of a margin that the provisional ballots just aren't going to tip it the other way.
posted by ook at 11:56 AM on November 4, 2004


I can see how I gave the wrong impression, amber, and I apologize for giving that impression. I wasn't blaming gay people, certainly, nor even gay activists (whether gay or straight, I count myself among them—I'm a lapsed [because of being poor—I let all my activists memberships lapse] member of GLAAD) for the election loss. I was speaking hypothetically from the standpoint of being someone like the SF mayor who is deliberately taking a specific action or making a statement to make a public, political point. And, yes, in that sense if you take a public action (like the marriage license on Valentine's Day) then it's in the public sphere and you're not merely living your private life. That's why you made the public statement, that's why it's public—you're saying something political. It's the right thing, but you're fooling yourself if you think that you are any less responsible for any bad results of your actions than you are of any good results of your actions. This is really no different from the Nader argument. Do you vote because you think it's merely a statement of your values that has no influence in the real world, or do you think it has influence in the real world? If it has influence in the real world, then you can't avoid the reality that if it can have good influence, it can also have bad influence. If you act in the public sphere hoping to make a difference in the public sphere, then you should hold youself accountable for the results. Saying that you meant well, or that what you did was "right" in isolation isn't enough. If it were truly private, it never would have needed to be public. But I'm not interested here in establishing blame—I don't think that, what I wrote above notwithstanding, it's anywhere near as clear-cut as the Nader argument in 2000. I thought, at the time, that this stuff was, on balance, going to do the movement more good than harm. I'm not sure that it didn't. But it mightn't. At the very least, we didn't do a good enough job nullifying the political advantage that this gave to Rove in terms of mobilizing his base. I argued at the time that this really wasn't a concern. I was wrong. It was a concern.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:00 PM on November 4, 2004


I'm kind of surprised the blue states (the west coast and the upper east coast) don't cede the union and join Canada. I suspect Canada's social values are a lot closer to what most of the population in those states want, than the US's social values are.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:10 PM on November 4, 2004


Every single act private or public has meaning--i think you're ascribing to one side things done by the other. It's not gay people that ever ever ever set the agenda, or create the talking points. That's a fact. It's not the gay and lesbians that wed in Hawaii ten years ago, nor the couples that go to city clerks hoping to marry.

When the Hawaii marriages happened, it was a small news event (now almost forgotten). It didn't become part of an election, nor was it used by one party or the other as a wedge issue. That should show you that it's not the actors in any event, but what is done by those wanting to capitalize on those events for political gain. It's a great difference.

If people stop living their lives and striving for justice and equality because they worry about how someone may use their actions, then we're all lost.
posted by amberglow at 12:28 PM on November 4, 2004


Gay marriage should've never been an election year topic. Not now, not with all else that needs attending to. Next time they'll pull something else out of the hat, maybe that old standby, flag burning or whatever.

It's a big pile of stinking horseshit. These aren't "moral values". They're diversions. You know that. I know that. I imagine even ParisParamus knows that.

Until some way is found to uplift and reframe the tenor of political discourse, so that these non-issues (i.e., none of the Governments business) are neutralized, Democrats are dead meat. I'm hopeful that a way will be found.

IN the meanwhile, it's just amazing to me that after the 2000 election, hanging chad and spoilage is still an issue. If I can use an ATM with 100% accuracy why the hell can't my vote be a vote, with a paper backup/receipt and while we're at, how about same day registration and just to make this wishlist perfect, how about I can vote in any damned county in my city?? Greg Palast basically said on NPR a few days before the election that it was going to be "shoplifted" and there was no doubt in his voice at all. Honestly at what point do you just give up and walk away in disgust and go about the business of just trying to live a life as best you can and damn the torpedoes?

@#!@$$#&!^#*@#!^)&#)^!$!@#^!@#&!%@#!@!#@!!

...
posted by Skygazer at 12:55 PM on November 4, 2004


five fresh fish, for Christ's sake, we're not going to run away. The US was founded as a land of freedom, where religious preference (or lack of same) would not bar anyone from public office. We've gotten rid of slavery, Prohibition, the disenfranchisement and economic hamstringing of women, legalized apartheid, and laws against interracial marriage. We've gotten rid of McCarthyism. We've gotten rid of the laws that said people of the same gender couldn't dance with each other in public. We're not quitting now.

Are you working for the Canadian Chamber of Commerce here or something? I'm sure you like it just fine in Canada. My Canadian relatives do, too. Hell, I own a bunch of land outside of St. John, New Brunswick myself. But I'm not turning tail and ceding the country the country my ancestors helped create almost 400 years ago to the people I disagree with--I'm going to stay here and work to change minds.
posted by Sidhedevil at 2:12 PM on November 4, 2004


I'm kind of surprised the blue states (the west coast and the upper east coast) don't cede the union and join Canada. I suspect Canada's social values are a lot closer to what most of the population in those states want, than the US's social values are.

The blue states define the "US's social values" too. That's part of the problem here. The Right has managed to define their values a The Official Values of the United States of America. And, somehow, what we on the coasts believe are somehow "rogue" values. This is why I don't think we need to cow to the heartland (see thread that Matt snarkily deleted. It's my fucking country too, goddammit.
posted by jpoulos at 2:16 PM on November 4, 2004


(not cow. to be cowed.)
posted by jpoulos at 2:20 PM on November 4, 2004


It's my fucking country too, goddammit.

Good luck with that.
posted by rushmc at 2:44 PM on November 4, 2004


Almost-Friday Flash Presidential Fun.
posted by iffley at 3:03 PM on November 4, 2004


The gay marriage thing increased turnout among the kind of people who would never, ever vote democratic in any case

What's worse is that without this issue they wouldn't vote at all. It took some great fear/hatred for them to get involved in their own government. sigh.
posted by LouReedsSon at 3:44 PM on November 4, 2004


Interestingly enough, Josh Marshall writes about exactly what we're discussing.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:51 PM on November 4, 2004


Be that as it may, we'll never reach 500 600.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 4:06 PM on November 4, 2004


rushmc: I spent most of yesterday in bed, literally curled up in a ball, mourning this country. I feel your pain. I really do. But I hope in a few days or weeks you'll come back to join the fight. We need you.
posted by jpoulos at 4:19 PM on November 4, 2004


I cannot wait another 4 years for my life to get better.

You mean you're in control of your own life?

Now there's a novel idea.
posted by justgary at 4:04 PM on November 8, 2004


justgary: You are such a benighted reactionary.

If that opinion came from someone not enrolled in the uni bomber school of nutso, fringe manifestos, I might be concerned.

As is, I'll sleep just fine.
posted by justgary at 4:22 PM on November 8, 2004


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