Men are for Mars

February 10, 2005 2:36 PM

"After all, women are fragile and delicate creatures; that is why men should lead the way to distant planets and carry women there in their strong hands,"said Russian Academy of Sciences' Anatoly Grigoryev to students of the Moscow International University, by way of explaining why there will be NO WOMEN on the first flight to Mars. Ok, that sounds right. But they might at least need some swishy gay guy to wash socks and do dishes for the fellas, nyet? (Meanwhile, looks like Comrade Anatoly here is bucking for a job at Harvard.) (RIA link via NASA Watch).
posted by jellybuzz (49 comments total)

But they might at least need some swishy gay guy to wash socks and do dishes

That is a disturbing simplification... women are women, gay men are gay men. End of story.
posted by moonbird at 2:49 PM on February 10, 2005

It gets even more simple than that... but I won't go there.
posted by Witty at 2:52 PM on February 10, 2005

He might joking, since it did say he said it with a smile. There is another reason he mentioned that could be the real one - they wanted only astronauts with prior spaceflight experience, and maybe Russia doesn't have many (or any) women in this category at the moment.

Stupid comment nonetheless though.

moonbird - check your sarcasm filter. He's pointing out that blanket stereotyping like that is ridiculous.
posted by chundo at 2:56 PM on February 10, 2005

I really like how adademic and political news is becoming more and more like banal gossip.
posted by effwerd at 3:00 PM on February 10, 2005

Thanks Chindo.

Sarcasm aside, obviously dozens of women have served as astronauts and traveled to space with great success. How can a Russian official in 2005 get away with saying women will not be invited to at least try to earn a place on the first flight to Mars? Wow. On some level I find the delightfully unabashed nature of East European sexism, well, refreshing. (I am part Russian so I can truly appreciate this.)

Of course, the difference between saying something outrageously bigoted and biased in the U.S. and saying it in East Europe is, here, you have to apologize.
posted by jellybuzz at 3:06 PM on February 10, 2005

effwerd: that is because it's actually easier to have opinionated opinions on banality then on complex topics... it seems that losta people like "easy" chat.

He probably was trying to make a "joke" to show his appreciation for "gentle sex" and he ended up looking as a utter moron in charge who doens't live among ordinary people and doesn't feel the effect of sexism on his skin.

You know, it's like the "rich" friend who never rode the underground and says something like the following : I don't know why the masses are complaining they've got almost free metro ! Those dam commies ! ...while he doesn't HAVE to ride it because it's the only affordable ride or doesn't know how much does the underground suck.
posted by elpapacito at 3:08 PM on February 10, 2005

If going to mars means living in a spacecraft, females have biological problems staying in a spacecraft for 30 days because they get infections.
posted by subgenius at 3:18 PM on February 10, 2005

women in space
posted by me & my monkey at 3:24 PM on February 10, 2005

subgenius is that sarcasm? If not, where did you get that (likely fictional) fact?

If it is sarcasm, you need to work on your hyperbole.
posted by Four Flavors at 3:26 PM on February 10, 2005

If going to mars means living in a spacecraft, females have biological problems staying in a spacecraft for 30 days because they get infections.

Uh, what?
posted by melixxa600 at 3:27 PM on February 10, 2005

actually, elpapacito, that's exactly what the russian official was probably doing - making a joke. as the report indicated, he smiled when he said it. however, i have a talented and brilliant young niece who seriously wants to compete to go to mars, and she isn't laughing.

in a better world, it would be news if a government official told a girl she couldn't be an astronaut. but of course to the extent this really is just "banal gossip" and not "news," as effwerd points out, well sorry we noticed. must be a slow news day.
posted by jellybuzz at 3:29 PM on February 10, 2005

Four Flavors and melixxa600: Newt Gingrich once said: If combat means living in a ditch, females have biological problems staying in a ditch for thirty days because they get infections.... There was quite kerfuffle about it, back in the day; it seemed sort of analogous to concerns about space travel.

On the other hand, Adjunct Professor Gingrich concluded: "[I]f combat means being on an Aegis-class cruiser managing the computer controls for twelve ships and their rockets, a female may be again dramatically better than a male who gets very, very frustrated sitting in a chair all the time because males are biologically driven to go out and hunt giraffes." So maybe he will be an advocate of a woman-only crew.
posted by subgenius at 3:46 PM on February 10, 2005

It's obviously a joke and yeah, it's in bad taste. But it doesn't seem to say anything about the guy's ability to do his job, or the agency's ability to do theirs. Unless you have links, which I would be very interested in. And if it isn't about that, then what is it about? A bad joke?

And I wasn't making my snark at you or the link. I was making the snark at the news. I'm glad you noticed the story.
posted by effwerd at 4:00 PM on February 10, 2005

According to Grigoryev women won't even be allowed to volunteer to pretend to go to Mars. Wow. I had no idea I was that delicate!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:24 PM on February 10, 2005

Personally, I'm so delicate I get an infection just thinking about going to Mars.
posted by jellybuzz at 4:29 PM on February 10, 2005

How can a Russian official in 2005 get away with saying women will not be invited to at least try to earn a place on the first flight to Mars?

Hmmm. That question from a poster who loaded the topic front heavy with rediculous stereotypes, innuendo, and Western xenophobia. Yup, seems to balance out. Comrade Anatoly? He might have been joking ... you I'm not so sure about jellybuzz.

And you can attribute the infection thing to one Newt Gingrich, while talking about women serving in foxholes. And funny thing, that. Even here in the enlightened west, he never apologized for that, at least as far as I'm aware.
posted by Wulfgar! at 4:45 PM on February 10, 2005

Yeah, me too, jellybuzz. Look! I'm getting an infection right now. Must stop thinking about Mars entirely.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:48 PM on February 10, 2005

And just so's we're clear, I really don't understand why there would be ANY outrage or judgement about what the Russians chose to do with their space exploration, unless of course, you're really a Russian citizen. Their choice, period.
posted by Wulfgar! at 4:49 PM on February 10, 2005

The reason for infections is that stick up your ass.
The statement was intended for russians, someone who can actually take a joke.
posted by c13 at 4:51 PM on February 10, 2005

Newt Gingrich once said: If combat means living in a ditch, females have biological problems staying in a ditch for thirty days because they get infections....

So do men.
posted by carmen at 4:55 PM on February 10, 2005

c13, you might want to clarify exactly who's ass your imagining that stick up ... and why, certainly.
posted by Wulfgar! at 4:56 PM on February 10, 2005

Comrade Anatoly

Wasn't the whole point of "Comrade" gender-neutrality?
posted by queen zixi at 4:56 PM on February 10, 2005

i am russian-american, comrade wulfgar. no joke.

He might have been joking ... you I'm not so sure about jellybuzz.

yes, as to what you perceived to be ridiculous stereotypes, innuendo, etc., of course i was joking. or more accurately, being facetious. or at least attempting to be. (metafilter often brings it out in me. sorry if i confused you.)
posted by jellybuzz at 5:07 PM on February 10, 2005

And as far as any aspiring female astronauts are concerned, I would think this would be a great opportunity to learn how to use such meaningless derision as inspiration.
posted by effwerd at 5:12 PM on February 10, 2005

I really don't think he was joking, or if he was the journalist failed to convey that:

There would be probably no women on the first flight to Mars, Director of the Institute of Medical and Biological Problems (IMBP), academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences, member of the Presidential Council on Sciences and Education Anatoly Grigoryev announced

Only experienced men can endure such a test.

He said that initially two six-man crews would be selected

You tell me. Just a poor translation?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:15 PM on February 10, 2005

My wife used to say:

"If you want to build a spaceship to mars - sure, get men to do it. If you want to remember to bring the goddamned toilet paper - you better bring a woman on the trip."

I guess there is an analogy to Tactical vs. Strategic thinking and how they relate to gender in there somewhere.
posted by tkchrist at 5:26 PM on February 10, 2005

It is worth noting that Russia sent its first woman into space two decades before the US did (and also had the first woman spacewalker). Despite this, Russia has sent a total of only three women into space, far fewer than the US has, and not one in the last decade. I suspect, therefore, that the Russian space agency's experiences with women as cosmonauts were less than positive (perhaps due to the fact that the human engineering of Russian spacecraft/equipment wasn't designed with woman in mind).

An interesting note is that the first woman in space, Valentina Tereshkova, was neither a scientist nor a pilot, but a factory-worker whose main qualifications were that she was a skydiving hobbyist and was willing to volunteer for the mission.
posted by kickingtheground at 5:27 PM on February 10, 2005

I suspect that Valentina Tereshkova and Svetlana Savitskaya will be very surprised to hear that Russian men need to lead the way into space.
posted by kyrademon at 5:28 PM on February 10, 2005

So basically, they're going to put six men together in a tin can for two years with no women? You might as well choose gay cosmonauts in the first place, because they'll almost certainly be having sex with each other by the time they get to Mars.
posted by kindall at 5:32 PM on February 10, 2005

secret life of gravy, i do not think he was joking about banning women from the mars mission. this bias has come up before. i do think the way he said it was at least partially in jest, hence the smile when he tossed out the part about "fragile and delicate creatures" who need men to "carry" them to distant planets.

elsewhere anatoly does offer more presumably "serious" reasons why women are not going to be selected for the crew. for example, here's a pravda blurb from 2001 in which he says a reason to exclude women would be because men & women quarrel.

(of course, maybe he winked when he said it that time.)
posted by jellybuzz at 5:39 PM on February 10, 2005

damn commies.
posted by jonmc at 5:40 PM on February 10, 2005

i am russian-american, comrade wulfgar. no joke.


Russian-American. Are you a Russian citizen? Or do you just feel that you have some claim to their decisions, protocals, and biases by some bizaare ethnic birthright? I'm sorry, but I just don't see how garnering some flavorful family anectdotes gives you a pass on making specious, pointless judgements on how other nations do their business. If Russians choose to send MEN to Mars, who cares?

Look, I'm not trying to be overly difficult here, but calling for derision against a sexist quip from some official half way around the world who may not agree with your enlightened ideals, and certainly will never ever give one saliant shit about this webspace, is just silly. Useless. Of no value save that which serves our own sense of importance and superiority. A very poor reason for posting this. It is not a major indictment against the Russian way of thinking; it is not a major world event; it is not news, except as an excuse for Americans to feel superior. This is just ... silly. And not in a funny ha-ha kinda way.

Also, what effword said.
posted by Wulfgar! at 5:41 PM on February 10, 2005

Kindall. I would hazard a guess that there would be something added to the water to keep the men focused.

I'm still wondering what kind of person volunteers to pretend to go to Mars. How is that going to impress the grandchildren?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:42 PM on February 10, 2005

I would hazard a guess that there would be something added to the water to keep the men focused.

Perhaps, but how are you going to keep them adding it to the water when they're millions of miles away from Earth? And wouldn't two years' worth of it for six men constitute a lot of expensive-to-move mass anyway? (Four years' worth if they're coming back.)
posted by kindall at 6:17 PM on February 10, 2005

Russian-American. Are you a Russian citizen?

darn, wulfgar. i knew you were going to ask that ;-)

what i want to know is, what difference does it make where i was born, really? (ok, i am american. and i can tell you sniffed it out with those remarks about "sense of importance and superiority" etc. got me.)

i want to be clear: the "sexist quip" is not the problem. however, if these repeated statements reflect official russian government policy, it might be a problem.

for one thing, i note that the U.S. (my government) is in partnership with russia on the international space station (along with japan, the EU, canada). i would argue we should reconsider doing business in space with governments that discriminate against women. (or others. and i mean, what if the russian policy was no christians in space because christians quarrel?)

in any case, what i don't get is, why are you so riled up by few posts that tend to suggest some people feel blatant sexism in this day and age on planet earth is not necessarily dandy?

(it's not my business, but i wonder: do you now or might you one day have a daughter?)
posted by jellybuzz at 6:20 PM on February 10, 2005

What's the record for most kills by a female fighter pilot?
17, by Olga Yamshchikova, Soviet Red Air Force. All were German men of the Luftwaffe. Its funny how the Russians forget that over 1000 Russian women flew as combat pilots.

What's the record for most kills by a female sniper? 309 by Lyudmila M. Pavlichenko (Scroll down to WWII).

Tank kills by Anti tank gunner? T.A. Sychyova, with 7 confirmed. (Scroll down).

Guess there are people who don't read their history in Russia. Women can go to Mars. Plus its not like the Russians will be the ones getting there.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:49 PM on February 10, 2005

You are all missing the point. They're going to Mars, people! Female astronauts belong on Venus.
posted by onlyconnect at 7:36 PM on February 10, 2005

Don't forget the famous exploits of the Women's Night Bombing Battalion, Ironmouth.
posted by kyrademon at 7:48 PM on February 10, 2005

"...making specious, pointless judgements on how other nations do their business..."

But making specious, pointless judgments on how one's own nation does its business is okay? Anyway, this "one should not criticize a nation not one's own" rule you assert is a stupid rule.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:24 PM on February 10, 2005

kyrademon - The 588th Night Bomber Air Regiment was included in the first link.
posted by MLIS at 9:35 PM on February 10, 2005

Didn't Larry Summers make some lady from MIT "physically ill" after saying men and women might have differences in innate abilities?
posted by Ron at 10:11 PM on February 10, 2005

But making specious, pointless judgments on how one's own nation does its business is okay? Anyway, this "one should not criticize a nation not one's own" rule you assert is a stupid rule.

EB, you would be absolutely correct IF your conclusion followed from the premiss ... you know, the one I never asserted ... the one that says making specious pointless judgements against your own country (or anything for that matter) is okay.
posted by Wulfgar! at 5:43 AM on February 11, 2005

Psychology and Space Travel: Planning for a Mars Mission:

One component of the solution to crew conflicts is crew selection. Firstly, the crew must be tested for psychological fitness (Cheston). The mixture of genders is also important. Studies of long-term isolation in Antarctica and a simulated Mars base in Canada show that a mixture of male and female crew members help alleviate conflicts. Charles Frankel, a habitant of the Mars base, noted that, “too many alpha males in a cramped space” were likely to display more stress, internal arguments, and problems with “ground control” (Hartmann, 438). Also, all male crews in the past have shown a tendency to hide emotions, thus increasing the likelihood of psychological problems. As for size, a crew of 7 best balances the need for a small crew with the expedience of varying personalities. However, a crew of 6 or 8 would allow for the ideal situation of having a crew made up of married couples, therefore relieving sexual tensions and loneliness. Furthermore, since wisdom comes with age but health does not, a middle aged crew would allow for relatively good health along with knowledge of social situations and problems (Sargent, 7). Selecting a crew that will work well together depends largely on crew size, disposition, and relationships.

posted by pracowity at 6:20 AM on February 11, 2005

(I believe they should send little people, maybe a crew of little GLBTs. And a lovable robot. But judge for yourself. There is plenty more literature on the subject.)
posted by pracowity at 7:02 AM on February 11, 2005

Didn't Larry Summers make some lady from MIT "physically ill" after saying men and women might have differences in innate abilities?


Yep. Sexism always makes me feel physically ill as well - this is no exception.
posted by agregoli at 7:11 AM on February 11, 2005

And after the US, Europe and Russia fight over PC spaceflight decorum for decades, how much you want to bet that China gets there first?
posted by Poagao at 7:21 AM on February 11, 2005

Guys, Mars Needs women.
posted by Divine_Wino at 7:24 AM on February 11, 2005

subgenius: Thanks for the clarification on the Newt quote. I missed that somehow.

Re the Russian comments: It's oh so silly as we know that the best crews are rag-tag crews, and that includes tough chicks in wifebeaters, dread-head dudes who really know their way around the con, ex-cons with a heart of gold, and at least one android and/or more-menschlike-than-the-humans encephalopod.
posted by melixxa600 at 11:30 AM on February 11, 2005

In a sense, yes. On the other hand....
posted by breezeway at 1:15 PM on February 11, 2005