iPod competitors

June 25, 2005 6:14 AM

iPod competitors talk briefly about the iPodand how they think their products and design philosophies compare to it. The comments of the CEO of Archos lives up to his country's "we are right and you are stupid" stereotype, saying, "I do not share the opinion that Apple's design for the iPod is any good."
posted by centerpunch (66 comments total)

Henri Crohas, 54, founded Archos in 1988. The Gmini 400, launched last September, has outsold the Apple iPod in the 20-GB category in Europe.

I guess he has reason enough to brag. Dent the behemoth indeed.
posted by mek at 6:25 AM on June 25, 2005

Good article; silly jingoistic front page post.
posted by ?! at 6:36 AM on June 25, 2005

Competing in this space? Honestly, it's all about customers first. - Ellen Glassman, Sony

Ken Kutaragi, president of Sony Computer Entertainment Inc., said he and other Sony employees have been frustrated for years with management's reluctance to introduce products like Apple Computer Inc.'s iPod - Sony: DRM cost us the Walkman

Heh.
posted by Leon at 6:48 AM on June 25, 2005

I've owned an iPod. They are great devices. But they do tether you to iTunes, which is something that I don't like, because they don't offer music the way I want it.

I'm a big believer in subscription music, despite the many detractors. I pay Yahoo $60 a year, and I get unlimited playing of music, and unlimited music on my Dell Pocket DJ.

If Apple would introduce a subscription service iTunes, they would then have all the market share, because the iPod just works. From turning it on, to playing music, to manipulating playlists, it is the best designs user interface for one of these devices. And it works across both Mac and PC, something that can't be said for any other device in it's range.

But, with my Dell Pocket DJ, I get a very similar interface, and I get my music from Yahoo. So that is what I have.
posted by benjh at 6:55 AM on June 25, 2005

Horace McLebowlitz - CEO of Mittech says their Floo player has outsold the ipod in the 'green device' category on the island of togo amongst the lungfish 20-25 demographic.

Ok what am I getting at here? Narrow it down and you can say nearly anything you want with your numbers. Id have to check the dates but i dont think that the 20G was the largest ipod last september, and it certainly isnt now. Also the 20G is now the smallest of the full size ipods.

And if you go look at this thing, it plays music, video, and games. IN fact this isnt even in the same market segment as the 20G ipod, the closest is the ipod photo, but thats not right either, as that doesn't do video and play games.

How to lie with statistics 101. This thing really needs to be measured against the PSP
posted by MrLint at 7:01 AM on June 25, 2005

Yep Leon, Sony has been shooting themselves in the foot for years pushing DRM. They should either sell their content business or start treating it as a lost leader. As it stands they always seem to be afraid they are going to sue themselves.
posted by Mitheral at 7:08 AM on June 25, 2005

uh... The iPod isn't all that. Yes, the "industrial design" is very pretty, and the controls are nice. But it has some fairly serious usability flaws, most glaring (in my mind) being its inability to crossfade or have gapless tracks. (just try listening to Dark Side of the Moon) Not to mention its lack of support for alternative audio formats, and the tethering to iTunes. And it's unnecessarily high price tag.

If it wasn't for the technorati declaring that the iPod was the "IT" device that all must own, it probably would have been supplanted as the leader a couple years ago.

The big problem is that none of their competition can really mount an effective campaign against them. Creative has come close a couple times, but I think the HUGE number of player models they have on the market hurts them. And Rio has always produced great stuff, but rarely has any advertising. (and their design philosophy only appeals to some.)
posted by InnocentBystander at 8:19 AM on June 25, 2005

I've owned an iPod. They are great devices. But they do tether you to iTunes

How so? I've used an iPod since 2002, and I don't use iTunes...
posted by glenwood at 9:10 AM on June 25, 2005

agreed, the lack of vorbis and flac or wavpack support in the ipod (not to mention on the desktop!!) is one of my biggest complaints about apple (and the main reason I would never buy an ipod, aside from the usual apple rdf/quality control/price issues...)

it's funny though, check out a site like dapreview and you see hundreds and hundreds of strange little devices all meant to fill some little niche or other (and many only meant to sell in se asia). hell, even iriver has been doing that for a while, their previous series of flash devices was downright confusing.
posted by dorian at 9:13 AM on June 25, 2005

Everything I have to say has already been said.
posted by rafter at 9:15 AM on June 25, 2005

InnocentBystander et al: The iPod was not designed for people looking for crossfade or gapless tracks. The marketplace is not made up of people who even know what gapless tracks are -- not to mention that the iPod is heavily oriented towards “suffle” mode, so many users will never listen to an entire CD in order. Most people use the MP3 format, and will use AAC if they buy it from iTunes.

The technorati? Only marginal influence on its success. Think outside the web. The iPod succeeds because it is attractive, simple and completely meets the needs of 60% of potential users, and sufficiently meets the needs of an additional 20%.

You don’t get to be the runaway market leader by providing OGG support or variable crossfading. You get to be the market leader by identifying the tasks that are most essential to the vast majority of the marketplace and making those tasks ridiculously easy to accomplish, and then working your way down from there, drawing a line where additional features would push the product to a level of complexity where entry level users would be intimidated.

Most people don’t need to know to the bitrate of the song to which they’re listening. They want to take their MP3s from the web or rip their CDs, have an easy-to-use desktop application to manage those CDs, and a user interface on the device and the desktop that makes simple tasks no-brainers, and more complex tasks easy to use. They’re designed so that most users can sit down with them, use them until they break, and never necessarily need to go into an advanced configuration menu or even create a “Smart Playlist.”

Windows takes up enough of my time from a day-to-day maintenance perspective. I want a product that’s a no-brainer. That doesn’t let me get distracted by small technical details that would end up needlessly consuming my time. Sure, they could allow LAME to plug in as a MP3 encoder for their ripping functionality – or I could rip everything with Exact Audio Copy and encode with LAME at --alt-preset standard but ultimately, I’d rather invest my time in driving to interesting places outside, with my full-loaded iPod jacked into the stereo.

You’d be surprised how many people don’t know how to switch their mobile phones into vibrate mode.
posted by VulcanMike at 9:20 AM on June 25, 2005

lol. "Shuffle" not "suffle"
posted by VulcanMike at 9:20 AM on June 25, 2005

"and more complex tasks easy to learn. "
posted by VulcanMike at 9:33 AM on June 25, 2005

It's reassuring to see that managers at Sony and Rio can be just as delusional as managers at some places I've worked.
posted by 4easypayments at 9:40 AM on June 25, 2005

Anyone who has owned both an archos and an ipod will tell you the ipod suxors times two. The only real beef i have with the archos is no video playlist support.
posted by sourbrew at 9:41 AM on June 25, 2005

I've owned an archos.

Nice design. Shitty software.

Poor quality control: I still own it, but it no longer works, because the case and battery contacts press on the circuit board.

There's a great open source replacement for the Archos's slow, shitty, feature-poor software. It's about an order of magnitude faster, and has a bunch more features (I contributed one or two of those). Archos not only refused to embrace the OS firmware replacement, then even scrambled the original firmware to make it harder to reverse engineer.

With their latest models, they've done to a business model of charging buyers extra to "unlock" advanced features of their software.

My next mp3 player will be an iPod. No, Apple's not OS friendly either, but then their firmware doesn't suck either.
posted by orthogonality at 9:42 AM on June 25, 2005

Ok what am I getting at here? Narrow it down and you can say nearly anything you want with your numbers.

Indeed. Something Apple excels at with the Mac and benchmarking. It can get rather hilarious.

It's all a matter of personal preference. I prefer the iRiver myself. I think it sounds much better.

I hardly expect representatives of companies to cast their products in a bad light.
posted by juiceCake at 9:45 AM on June 25, 2005

the lack of vorbis and flac or wavpack support in the ipod

Ogg vorbis is the new ARJ...
posted by foot at 10:09 AM on June 25, 2005

What VulcanMike said. iPod was made for normal people, not geeks. Most of them just want to listen to the damn song, not fuck around with bit rates, crossfades, equilizer settings and the file structure. Most of them use the iPod with the headphones, so 128 bit mp3 is perfectly adequate, and you can make them yourself or pirate off LimeWire, so why would they care if iTunes doesn't support some other codec?
This is what Apple got right and others got wrong. If you want to make a music player, make it for people who like to listen to music, not for the ones who get all wet and trembling over extra buttons.
posted by c13 at 10:12 AM on June 25, 2005

I was going to buy an iPod at an Apple store, then luckily for me the sales guy explained the ITunes thing and that ended it for me. Are there any products on the market that simply mount the HD's filesystem over USB, let you copy MP3's and playlists in, and let you play those?
posted by XMLicious at 10:34 AM on June 25, 2005

People, people, all these company spokesmen aren't stupid. They know that consumers consider their products are inferior to Apple's and they know that most often consumers are correct. The "opinions" they spouse are, in fact, propaganda. It's sad, but there are no candid statements when business is involved.
posted by randomstriker at 10:45 AM on June 25, 2005

XMLicious:

The RIO Carbon is the player for you. It's a no brainer. Awesome player that is true simplicity: just a hard drive that plays music.

No DRM, no Itunes or special software.
posted by MotorNeuron at 11:26 AM on June 25, 2005

XML icious: there was a whole AskMe question about replacement software for iTunes last week; check the archives. Personally, I use Winamp.
posted by blag at 11:29 AM on June 25, 2005

XMLicious: You might want to check out Iriver's new line of players.

It doesn't lock you into any software (I use Windows Exporer to load songs) and has a list of features that frankly blow me away.
posted by Benway at 11:59 AM on June 25, 2005

One more XMLicious response: I used to be like you, but then I realized that using an iPod with iTunes involves less steps: no creating playlists by hand, no organizing files by hand, no mount, no drag. I have smart playlists for all my genres and a few other things, and iTunes automatically dumps new songs into the proper slot. I know I'm not going to convert anyone and that there will always be a micromanaging demographic, but once I realized how little time there is in a day, I quit spending precious hours fiddling and just let iTunes do what it does best: let me listen to my music with no fuss.
posted by socratic at 12:10 PM on June 25, 2005

So what's the best el cheapo $50-ish flash mp3 player I can get my wife to use for jogging?
posted by craniac at 12:11 PM on June 25, 2005

I've owned an Archos Jukebox, an iRiver 350, and 4 iPods. The Archos blows. Even iRiver's dismal interface was better than the Archos. Did anyone test these players for more than 5 minutes before putting them to market?

(I owned both years ago, when they first came out. Perhaps they improved. But the iRiver and the Archos both left such horrible tastes in my mouth I'm not eager to try them again. My dog could come up with a more intuitive interface.)
posted by dobbs at 12:30 PM on June 25, 2005

agreed, the lack of vorbis and flac or wavpack support in the ipod

...means nothing to 99.9 percent of the people who own an iPod.

Anyone who has owned both an archos and an ipod will tell you the ipod suxors times two. The only real beef i have with the archos is no video playlist support.

Such a ridiculous statement.

I've used an archos, and a dell dj, and a couple of others, and I'd never give up my iPod. It's about what works for you.

For me being tied to iTunes is a bonus, but even if I didn't care for it I'd still prefer the iPod other any other mp3 player.
posted by justgary at 12:48 PM on June 25, 2005

I really think the iPod's success has a lot more to do with fasion and trendyness then it's technology. Apple was the first "major" company to tackle the market, and they came out with a good product. And sony totaly fucked themselves with DRM. The walkman, the diskman, and now the iPod. Helarious.

I actualy got one of those stupid network walkmen, it played songs from memory sticks and it was really beautiful, but needing to convert my songs with their slow-ass software made it pretty useless.

Now I have a Samsung YP something. it's tiny and it plays mp3s and even OGG files (not that I have any, but hey). One gig of space is enough for me, and its small size means I can take it anywhere. It also runs on a standard AA battery, so I can just replace the batteries when they stop working.
posted by delmoi at 12:51 PM on June 25, 2005

Socratic,

I had the opposite experience with I-tunes. I borrowed a friend's Ipod shuffle for a trip (it is a really nice piece of hardware) and was really frustrated with Itunes.

I grabbed a couple CDs with my MP3s and put the first CD in my friend CD drive. I loaded the songs on the MP3 player with Itunes -so far so good. Then I switched CDs to add more music. Itunes sensed that the first CD was out of the drive and promptly removed those songs from the Ipod. What gives? Did it really think that by removing the disk I wanted to remove the songs from the Ipod? Was this some form of copy protection?

I ended up having to copy my music to my friend's hard drive and have Itunes import everything them from there. And it sorted them alphabetically by song title on the player. Who the heck listens to songs alphabetically?

I'm sure that given time I could have learned to enjoy the software, but isn't the point supposed to be that Itunes should be easy and intuitive? Mount and drag is not a hassle. I, for one, already know how to move files around (being a computer user, and all).
posted by MotorNeuron at 12:52 PM on June 25, 2005

iAudio's stuff works like that, XMLicious. (And I don't drag, create playlists by hand, or any of that stuff either--scripted.)
posted by kenko at 12:56 PM on June 25, 2005

Apple's announcing something new next week, likely iPod related.
posted by bobloblaw at 12:59 PM on June 25, 2005

Motor Neuron - to me it sounds like you didn't actually copy the songs into iTunes.
posted by nathan_teske at 1:23 PM on June 25, 2005

Apple is dumb for not catering to the hundreds of people who use Ogg Vorbis. (and linux is totally ready for the desktop.)
posted by keswick at 1:33 PM on June 25, 2005

i love my ipod, i only wish they offered one that had rubber shockproof casing instead of the metal + plastic combo that is just waiting to crack into a dozen expensive pieces the second i drop it on concrete.
posted by tsarfan at 2:31 PM on June 25, 2005

Yeah, Motor Neuron, you didn't hit the big "Import" button at the top left. What you saw there was just iTunes listing the songs on the CD in the drive.

Next time click "Import," and it will copy the songs from the CD to the hard disk iTunes library.

Oh, and make sure that before you do that, you set the Import Preferences to your favorite filetype and bitrate/quality. I stick with 160k MP3, because I like my files to be highly portable, even though they are smaller when using AAC. So I take a filespace hit in the name of being able to put my songs anywhere.
posted by zoogleplex at 2:42 PM on June 25, 2005

Acutally zoogleplex, when dealing with an MP3 cd, you can just drag the songs from the CD into the main iTunes library. That way they aren't reencoded, just directly copied from the files on the CD itself.
posted by nathan_teske at 2:50 PM on June 25, 2005

The iPod will be better than the competition for the forseeable future because apple patented the fucking wheel-as-interface-device. I love my iPod, but I'm really pissed off about that.
posted by Tlogmer at 2:57 PM on June 25, 2005

uh... The iPod isn't all that. Yes, the "industrial design" is very pretty, and the controls are nice. But it has some fairly serious usability flaws most glaring (in my mind) being its inability to crossfade or have gapless tracks. (just try listening to Dark Side of the Moon)

In iTunes: Advanced > Join CD Tracks

My biggest beef, however, is the fact that in order to activate the backlight, you have to use the LCD. What kind of brain-damaged thinking was that? In any situation in which you will need the backlight, you're not going to be able to see the LCD.
posted by weston at 3:27 PM on June 25, 2005

The "Join CD Tracks" physically joins the tracks you select on CD as a single file. Not exactly an ideal solution. And it only applies to anything you import from CD - not tracks you already have in your library.

As for the backlight - I just hold down the "Menu" button, and the backlight activates. This is on a third generation iPod.
posted by coach_mcguirk at 3:45 PM on June 25, 2005

i love my ipod, i only wish they offered one that had rubber shockproof casing instead of the metal + plastic combo that is just waiting to crack into a dozen expensive pieces the second i drop it on concrete.
posted by tsarfan

You want the case by Contour.

My biggest beef, however, is the fact that in order to activate the backlight, you have to use the LCD. What kind of brain-damaged thinking was that? In any situation in which you will need the backlight, you're not going to be able to see the LCD. posted by weston

There's a setting in the menu that lets you choose how long you want the display to be lit when you touch the controls. Go to 'settings", then "backlight timer" to adjust.
posted by centerpunch at 3:47 PM on June 25, 2005

They want to take their MP3s from the web or rip their CDs, have an easy-to-use desktop application to manage those CDs, and a user interface on the device and the desktop that makes simple tasks no-brainers, and more complex tasks easy to use. They're designed so that most users can sit down with them, use them until they break, and never necessarily need to go into an advanced configuration menu or even create a Smart Playlist.

Guilty as charged.

I do care about bitrates and such, and wouldn't mind the crossfade thingy, but my recent return to 9-5 means that I can finally afford to buy an iPod, and buy one I will. I've been waiting to get one long enough.
posted by jokeefe at 3:53 PM on June 25, 2005

spending money on music in any way shape or form is a waste of time.
posted by angry modem at 3:57 PM on June 25, 2005

I do care about bitrates and such
wouldn't mind the crossfade thingy

somehow you'd think someone who cares about bitrates would refer to things more specifically than 'crossfade thingy'.
posted by angry modem at 4:02 PM on June 25, 2005

I don't see why you'd think that.
posted by kenko at 4:08 PM on June 25, 2005

i'm surprised no one has mentioned the zen nomad's. i've had mine for a year and a half....after much research to get exactly what i wanted. and i've had not one single problem with it. works the same way as the day i got it.

it supports all the file formats i need. i can micro manage. the software it comes with is *not* musicmatch, and works exceptionally.

maybe the ipod is for the non-geek, but all my friends who've had them have either complained that they can't figure out how to get files off the thing, the battery died or the player just flat out died.

the ipod never figured for me. aac sucks. itunes sucks. i like to listen to albums...the ipod seems to not understand that. i can understand though that i'm in the very small minority when it comes to this opinion.

just wanted to point that out to all the other folks in this thread looking for an alternative to the ipod.
posted by oliver_crunk at 5:15 PM on June 25, 2005

1. I owned an Archos GMini 20G for all of one week. The interface sucked, and when the hard drive crashed I was able to return it for an Ipod.

2. If my 20G Ipod is on, and I press and hold the menu button, the backlight turns on.

3. One can play an album by Selecting Music->Album-> The Ipod will play it in track order, which the Archos won't. I haven't given a rip about gap-less playback, even when playing Wish You Were Here.

4. I was used to flash-based players which mount as mass storage, and I find that it is actually easier to use Itunes, as was mentioned up-thread.

5. I was worried about whether vibration would hurt the hard drive (I listen on my tractor alot - makes baling go faster), but I haven't had any problems so far with the Ipod.

That is all.
posted by rfs at 5:58 PM on June 25, 2005

I wouldn't buy an iPod for myself because it's overpriced for what it does. However, I bought one for my sig.other because she isn't a hardware nerd and just wants something simple and intuitive that works, that has a wide, experienced fan base and that isn't going to fall off the market a year later -- which all these competitors invariably do.

I have sufficient interest to seek out more versative converged devices and the ability to do my own support when the vendor invariably lames out. She doesn't. Neither do most people. And I recommend ephPod+Audiograbber for nongeeks who don't want to dick around with iTunes.
posted by George_Spiggott at 6:11 PM on June 25, 2005

"versatile", not "versative", obviously.
posted by George_Spiggott at 6:12 PM on June 25, 2005

Speaking of crossfade, in Audio, under Preferences, there is a check box and a slider that goes from 0 to 12 seconds.
Also, at the top of the screen, there is a Help menu, both for iTunes and iPod...
posted by c13 at 6:27 PM on June 25, 2005

thanks centerpunch, i just ordered one up
posted by tsarfan at 6:38 PM on June 25, 2005

This thread is like some really bad infomercial.
posted by Slagman at 8:30 PM on June 25, 2005

I'm really surprised more people haven't mentioned the Dell DJ. I have one, and I love it (especially when I was able to rationalize the purchase as a USB device for school). I've really been put off by all the "Ooone of uuus!" vibe around the iPod. I actually know people who desperately want the white ear buds so they can be cool. Then again, most of my friends these days are at yuppie university so I'm probably not getting the best sample.
posted by Kimberly at 11:07 PM on June 25, 2005

Has anyone bought and used anything from Creative? I like the idea of buying a light external hard-drive that plays music, and prices seem pretty reasonable.
posted by beguemot at 1:38 AM on June 26, 2005

Kimberly : "Then again, most of my friends these days are at yuppie university so I'm probably not getting the best sample."

Probably not. Most of the people around me tend to be the types who buy an iPod and immediately buy black headphones so it doesn't look like they've got an iPod. We're probably both working in odd sample groups.
posted by Bugbread at 1:48 AM on June 26, 2005

You don't need to use the menus to turn the backlight on, weston, even if it's off by default. Press-and-hold menu works for me.
posted by athenian at 1:48 AM on June 26, 2005

> If it wasn't for the technorati declaring that the iPod was
> the "IT" device that all must own, it probably would have
> been supplanted as the leader a couple years ago.

Yeah, right. That's why we're all running OSX on the desktop -- because for years, said technorati have been telling us that Windows sux0rs, and gives us adware and spyware and viruses and crashes every five minutes.

We are all running OSX, aren't we?

Aren't we?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:15 AM on June 26, 2005

I am.
posted by keswick at 10:53 AM on June 26, 2005

> If it wasn't for the technorati declaring that the iPod was
> the "IT" device that all must own, it probably would have
> been supplanted as the leader a couple years ago.

All I want in a mp3 player:

1. mounts as a hard drive, no DRM
2. really good usability
3. doesn't feel cheap
4. cost same or less than an ipod
5. hackable platform
posted by craniac at 11:39 AM on June 26, 2005

Love the Slagman comment!

The iPod has some annoying flaws. The lack of gapless playback is seriously annoying, especially when listening to those mix tapes. Crossfade is an absolute joke, I mean it's really, really poor - and Apple would do well to address the issue. Anyhow, a few interface gripes, poor battery life and dismal screen durability aside the iPod is great machine. And, of course, you're instantly cool if you have one.

End of the day, it's all to do with that scroll-wheel - they struck gold with that patent.
posted by shoez at 4:32 PM on June 26, 2005

I still like mix tapes...ala cassette
posted by Thayer-P at 7:11 PM on June 26, 2005

This thread is like some really bad infomercial.
posted by Slagman

Love the Slagman comment!

Yeah! Shouldn't we be too cool to admit we like a product this much?
What were we thinking?

I guess we're just to dumb to know that we shouldn't really like iPods!
Enlighten us, Obi Wan!
.
posted by centerpunch at 7:15 PM on June 26, 2005

Sorry guys, but my mp3 player can beat up your mp3 player.

don't question it!
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 9:51 PM on June 26, 2005

It's worth mentioning that some of the brilliance of the iPod and iTunes design is rooted in the company's over 20 years of user interface development experience.

When the company that pioneered user interface elements that millions of people use every day designs a consumer electronics device, it's not surprising that they deliver something that stands apart.
posted by VulcanMike at 4:51 AM on June 27, 2005

VulvanMike:

"When the company that pioneered..."

You mean "When a company that pioneered...". Apple has done no more or less than some other leading companies and design institutions. But otherwise yeah.

I'd also add that another reason the Ipod stood apart was that other companies had been ironing out the worst bugs in hdd mp3 players for several years prior. You can see a lot further than others when you stand on the shoulders of giants. Apple often stands on the shoulders of giants - which is an admirable trait, but when writing the history, the giants should remain part of the story, otherwise, it becomes a myth, where the hero is exagerated to 8 feet tall with bicepts like barrels. :-)
posted by -harlequin- at 6:18 AM on June 27, 2005

I've owned an archos.

Nice design. Shitty software.

Yep. Archos would have fallen by the wayside long ago if not for the independently-developed Rockbox firmware for some of their products. Just look at a feature comparison chart.

Disclaimer: I'm a satisfied Archos/Rockbox user.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:19 PM on June 27, 2005