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whew.
September 2, 2005 10:48 AM   RSS feed for this thread Subscribe

Convoy on the go. Most of you probably already know this, but a massive convoy of food in and people out of downtown New Orleans is underway. On CNN they have video from helicopters, showing lines of hundreds of busses. This is a huge relief.
posted by delmoi (269 comments total)

The commanding general in charge of the relief effort in New Orleans was directing the operation from a street corner. He told the troops, part of a deployment of 1,000 members of the National Guard, to make sure they kept their guns down...

"A few moments ago, he stopped a truck full of National Guard Troops ... and said, 'Point your weapons down, this is not Iraq,'" said CNN's Barbara Starr who is traveling with the three-star general.


The irony of this would be funny, if it wasn't so incredibly tragic.
posted by Rothko at 10:57 AM on September 2, 2005


Pictures, get you pictures here. Rescued by Prz. Bush.

I wouldn't put it beneath him to hold off relief until he could get there for the photo op.
posted by 517 at 10:57 AM on September 2, 2005


May I just say that watching these videos, coupled with the mayor's endorsement of Gen. Honore, gave me a physical sense of relief coupled with the notion of a cautious "Day late, hopefully not a single dollar short."
posted by chandy72 at 10:58 AM on September 2, 2005


Is the three-star general the same fellow that the mayor ref'd in his now famous interview? Honoré or something?
posted by docgonzo at 10:59 AM on September 2, 2005


also, my cynical side agrees completely with 517.
posted by chandy72 at 10:59 AM on September 2, 2005


Answered on preview. Thanks!
posted by docgonzo at 10:59 AM on September 2, 2005


Yeah, but at least they are there, and there's somebody acting like they are in charge. The damage is done, done too much, done too long -- but at least now, for a few thousand people, there's hope.
posted by eriko at 11:10 AM on September 2, 2005


Nope, I would not at all. CNN's front page...

Image hosted by Photobucket.com
posted by 517 at 11:11 AM on September 2, 2005


Notice the simultaneous images coming out of Bush's emergency mission to hug aggrieved victims and look all sad for the camera. Phew! Nick of time.

This sonofabitch is going to get off scott free, again, for not just poor planning but indifference to planning. He's an incompetent, but his image handlers have just squeezed him through the tunnel. My keyboard can't type enough obscenities to describe this administration.
posted by argybarg at 11:12 AM on September 2, 2005


About God Damn time. Lets hope that no one else will die from dehydration or starvation or lack of medicine from this point forward.

Also, independently verified by the interdictor, with pics as well.
posted by SirOmega at 11:14 AM on September 2, 2005


Wow. Just wow.

One would think that the response would be:

"Great" or "Thank god" or "Yay!"

But then I see the reaction here.

Metafilter has shown me that there are people out there who have viewed this entire tragedy as a political issue and not through the lense of humanism. There is a time to be political and discuss it, and that time is usually when the situation ceases to be critical.

That you can view a tragedy of this proportion and look first how to blame someone politically and not how utterly sad it is and what you can do to help.... or that you can view good news that people are being taken out and that help is arriving and try to discredit the help, downplay the good, invoke extreme cynicism and avoid showing satisfaction with the news....it really says a lot about the character of some of you. The politicizing attitude that was rightfully lambasted in the days 9/11 has occurred in this tragedy from day one. Which shows me that a lot of you didn't appreciate this to be a tragedy it in fact is. Maybe its because it doesn't effect you directly or for whatever reason, but Metafilter should be embarassed---I know that I am.
posted by dios at 11:14 AM on September 2, 2005


Tell yourself whatever makes you feel comfortable, sophist.
posted by sonofsamiam at 11:15 AM on September 2, 2005


Dios, I donated a 20-gallon garbage bag filled with good clothes, along with some money. Go stuff your false outrage up your rear.
posted by Rothko at 11:17 AM on September 2, 2005


Dios: I see your point, but if not now when? After they have spun it?
posted by 517 at 11:18 AM on September 2, 2005


.

a moment for thanks.
posted by jb at 11:19 AM on September 2, 2005


517, they'll wait a few months, then say there's no use in dwelling on the past, that it's time to move forward, that hindsight is 20/20, blah blah blah.

sonofsamiam is dead-on in his assesment of dios--sophistry, pure and simple.
posted by MrMoonPie at 11:20 AM on September 2, 2005


Here's your "Great!" from me: Yay!

...I'll just add "It's about fucking time you pack of incompetent bastards!"

Whoops, guess I veered a little close to criticizing Dear Leader there, didn't I?
posted by aramaic at 11:21 AM on September 2, 2005


dios: We're making this a political issue? Bush made this a political issue by not doing anything about Katrina for almost an entire week.

This is Bush's responsibility and I find your mock outrage offensive.
posted by bshort at 11:21 AM on September 2, 2005


2 million gallons of oil found leaking into the Gulf near Venice LA.
posted by stbalbach at 11:22 AM on September 2, 2005


Show me pictures of the people getting the food (estimates are of 50,000 plus in the Superdome and Convention Center alone).

And shut the fuck up, dios, until you actually see pictures of people getting the food without being shot at. This is how many days too late? How many are already dead? Your embarrassment is misdirected---it's our Government who has failed, not those of us here furious that aid is so very late and fellow Americans are dying.
posted by amberglow at 11:22 AM on September 2, 2005


Dios, thanks, you finally got me pissed off enough to install GreaseMonkey and the kill file so I'll never have to read another one of your trollish comments. People have every right to be pissed off at the response, its been five days since the hurricane hit.

We've got six bags of clothes ready to be donated and I'm sure we'll find some more to donate. Rothko, who did you donate your stuff through?
posted by fenriq at 11:22 AM on September 2, 2005


I am worried about what will happen if that oil catches fire.
posted by sonofsamiam at 11:22 AM on September 2, 2005


Wow. Just wow.

Balls. Just balls. Your whole post. Do you get an NEA grant for this performative shit?
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 11:23 AM on September 2, 2005


Ahh... The righteous right wing returns. Thanks, Dios, all of us over here reading the appalling news of infants and old folks dying in the streets for the last three days are glad you (and a large convoy, and--conveniently and coincidentally enough-- your man GW) could finally make it (all at the same time, even!). What's that? We should be ashamed of ourselves? Well, ok... We'll see at the next photo-op, then...
posted by Chrischris at 11:23 AM on September 2, 2005


Bush might have more credibility if he could wipe that goddamn smirk off his face. There's nothing funny about Katrina and he needs to act like a goddamn president.
posted by bshort at 11:23 AM on September 2, 2005


Better than nothing. By the way, I thought I was fairly familiar with military vehicles - what's the name of those trucks they're using?
posted by icontemplate at 11:24 AM on September 2, 2005


Dios: The fundamental purpose of government is to protect the people. It failed, miserably. Blame needs to rest not only on bush's hand, but on the governor and the mayor as well. But bush, and FEMA, the federal government should have been the major players in this. And it should have been done immediately after the hurricane, not 3 or 4 days later, after people is dying in the streets for want of food and potable water and medical care. People are still dying. CNN had an interview with a doctor, who mentioned two people died being evacuated from a hospital just a bit ago.

People are incredibly angry that it took so long. Angry at the government, who's responsibility, was do its job. How can that not be political?

I was relived that there was an evacuation under way, that's why I posted this. IF you think all this gnashing is just cynical political opportunism then you can go fuck yourself.
posted by delmoi at 11:24 AM on September 2, 2005


That you can view a tragedy of this proportion and look first how to blame someone politically

this isn't about politics ... if john kerry had been elected president and made such a mess of things through inaction, i'd be screaming for his head too

the president had a job to do and didn't do it in time ... no excuses ... no arguments

it's way past time the troops should have showed up
posted by pyramid termite at 11:25 AM on September 2, 2005


So there's a bunch of food and aid heading into New Orleans. There's a bunch of survivors/refugees heading out of New Orleans.

Any chance that the food and aid will go to waste since everyone is now heading to Texas?
posted by ruthsarian at 11:26 AM on September 2, 2005


On post: Dios did a good job of derailing this thread.
posted by delmoi at 11:26 AM on September 2, 2005


Gosh dios, it warms my heart to know there are still at least a few starry-eyed Bush apologists out there.

The problem with waiting till a "proper time" to discuss things is that some folks seem to forget the past so quickly it'll make your head spin. So the time to talk about it is either now or never. If the prevention and relief hadn't been handled so poorly we wouldn't be here talking about it.
posted by doctor_negative at 11:26 AM on September 2, 2005


It's more important for dios to attack us instead of the people responsible for this failure which is resulting in deaths--more every minute. Nice. Your concern for the many many thousands of starving people is showing in spades.
posted by amberglow at 11:26 AM on September 2, 2005


Is the federal government doing too much? Not enough? Or just the right amount to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina?
Not enough: 68% | Right amount: 26%
Thinking just about the President of the United States ... Do you approve or disapprove of President Bush's response to Hurricane Katrina?
Approve: 40% | Disapprove: 53%
SurveyUSA | 9/2/05
posted by ericb at 11:27 AM on September 2, 2005


So there's a bunch of food and aid heading into New Orleans. There's a bunch of survivors/refugees heading out of New Orleans.

Maybe some will be wasted in the end, but those people need food and water immediately.
posted by delmoi at 11:27 AM on September 2, 2005


Bush knew enough about the storm to declare the area a disaster area even before the storm hit, but he didn't know the levees might break? He didn't direct the federal government to get its shit together to get aid to the communities that would be affected, and even days later he's just now getting around to mobilizing troops and aid workers.

Bush has turned this country into a third-world country.

Dios - what exactly would Bush have to do to make you realize he's incompetent?
posted by bshort at 11:27 AM on September 2, 2005


Rothko, who did you donate your stuff through?

Philly's Red Cross office is on 23rd and Chestnut. They take in clothing.
posted by Rothko at 11:29 AM on September 2, 2005


517: I saw that video on CNN earlier today. Bush hugging these two black girls, like teenagers. They were crying, they said the only clothes they had were those on their backs, etc. Bush hugged them, comforted them. You could hear the click of the cameras as he did it. It was a photo-op, and it bothered me a little bit. But i'm happy that people are finaly getting releif.

That was in Biloxi Miss, also.
posted by delmoi at 11:30 AM on September 2, 2005


FYI: If you have items of value that are easier to part with than money, Ebay is running charity auctions where the proceeds go to Disaster Relief (through the United Way, I think).
posted by selfnoise at 11:31 AM on September 2, 2005


It's more important for dios to attack us instead of the people responsible for this failure which is resulting in deaths--more every minute. Nice. Your concern for the many many thousands of starving people is showing in spades.

Just wanted to see that again. Dios, shut up. Your criticism of the many passionate and empathetic people on this board helps nothing.
posted by agregoli at 11:32 AM on September 2, 2005


Sorry dios - I was out at lunch and caught footage of the convoy on a tv, and found myself literally shedding tears of joy (after shedding tears and losing my sh*t earlier in the day reading about dying babies in the University Hospital neo-natal ICU).

We don't "appreciate" the seriousness of this?! Are you f*cking insane!?

Nothing changes the colossal f*ck ups that have played a direct role in this disaster, nor does anything make it possible to separate the politics so we can all talk about it "later". Doesn't mean a Democratic administration would've done any better, but why do I have have no trouble seeing you screaming for heads if Kerry was running this boondoggle? Take your self-righteous schtick somewhere else.
posted by jalexei at 11:32 AM on September 2, 2005


Rothko, thanks, its a little far for me but I'll find a local Red Cross to donate our stuff to.
posted by fenriq at 11:32 AM on September 2, 2005


(and a large convoy, and--conveniently and coincidentally enough-- your man GW) could finally make it (all at the same time even!).

Conspiracy proposal: From interdictor's blog, the officials in New Orleans actually on the ground were told that this convoy would arrive today, but it was strangely behind schedule. Since the president and the convoy arrived at the same exact time (making it a great PR stop, coincidentally), do we have any reason to believe the convoy wasn't asked to hold back and wait for the president to catch up?

Is there any exact information on the routes, the schedules, and the times of departure/arrival that could either dissuade me from leaning towards this theory or building support for it?
posted by odinsdream at 11:35 AM on September 2, 2005


That you can view a tragedy of this proportion and look first how to blame someone politically and not how utterly sad it is and what you can do to help

dios, It's getting so that when I read a stupid post, I can be sure that your name will be at the bottom. I've done some volunteer work already, and am signed up for a lot more, so I already know what I can do to help, and I'm doing it. Surprisingly enough, I can handle doing that and thinking critically at the same time.

What you seem to want is for everyone to put their heads in the sand for a few weeks until the president can get his story fabricated with a better spin. Well, too bad for you. I guess it will be interesting to see how long all the Bush apologists will continue to hold on their fantasy world just out of spite.
posted by milovoo at 11:41 AM on September 2, 2005


Along with ecribs post:

CNN, non-scientific poll:

Has President Bush done enough to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina?

Yes - 21% - 6880 votes

No - 79% - 25682 votes

as of 2:41 PM EST
posted by Pollomacho at 11:42 AM on September 2, 2005


odinsdream: It dosn't seem unresonable that there would be delays. The busses had to navigate through 2-3 feet of water without getting stuck, for example. I don't think we need to be worrying about conspiracy theories. Let's hope that people can get evaccuated as quick as possible and that after that, we can worry about the political aftermath.
posted by delmoi at 11:42 AM on September 2, 2005


It seems like this is turning into a true national effort; we just got the following email at work:


September 2, 2005


TO: MIF

FROM: Don Snell

RE: Hurricane Katrina Recovery Medical Efforts

Augusta and Atlanta are Georgia’s two Federal Coordinating Centers of the National Disaster Medical System. As such, these two cities will receive refugees from the areas devastated by Hurricane Katrina. Over the past 24 hours, Atlanta has received 10 planeloads of 100 to 150 refugees each. We do not know how many of those refugees are in need of medical attention, nor do we know the severity of their injuries or illnesses. We expect Atlanta will soon become saturated, making it necessary to divert refugees to the Augusta area.

In the event of a diversion, our DMAT emergency personnel will be deployed to Bush Field to receive and triage incoming refugees. After applying immediate treatment as appropriate, they will distribute those in need of medical attention to Augusta’s area hospitals, including MCG Health System.

We do not know how many patients our health system is likely to get, what type of patients they will be and when they are likely to arrive. Therefore, we ask that all hired and leased employees remain available to work over the holiday weekend if called on to do so. This applies even if they are not officially on call and not already scheduled to work.

We will keep you updated as additional information becomes available. Thank you in advance for sacrificing your free time to help our fellow Americans.


We are about 600 miles from NO and hardly in the first tier of areas to get casualties.
posted by TedW at 11:43 AM on September 2, 2005


You're such a fucking putz, dios.

Yay. Finally.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:43 AM on September 2, 2005


Wow, BushCo supporters stand silent for three days while their man plays some golf, strums a six strink, Condi buys some new shoes, and Rummy goes on Letterman (tonight, right?) and you sepnd your righteous indignation on US for pointing out that:

  • Bush didn't know the levees would break, but Mr. Bill did
  • This FEMA guy's an uckfup from way back (plus he's well on the way to being this guy)
  • They disaster-gamed this exact scenario for Hurricane Pam
  • I would love to know who consulted for Oil Storm (FX link) from FEMA

  • For those of you in the reality-based community, Think Progress and Sploid seem to be the places to go.
    posted by rzklkng at 11:45 AM on September 2, 2005


    More blame should be on the Governor of Louisiana.
    She is in the middle of the situation from the beginning. Was she asking for FEMA and federal assistance to be ready from the start?
    posted by Wallzatcha at 11:48 AM on September 2, 2005


    YES.
    posted by keswick at 11:51 AM on September 2, 2005


    What, did you just get here? Almost every Katrina thread from the last three days has had links and pastes of the requests to FEMA and the near 1/10th grants they got in return. Take a nanosecond and go look.
    posted by phearlez at 11:54 AM on September 2, 2005


    In other news, Sweden is in preparations of sending a Hercules airplane with water purifyers and staff on Sunday, but they still have no "Go" from the US gov.

    And dios: Swallow a cup of shut the fuck up along with that bucket of cocks you're chocking on, will you? Thanks.
    posted by mr.marx at 11:57 AM on September 2, 2005


    President Bush Diverts Critical Resources For Photo-Op .
    posted by ericb at 12:00 PM on September 2, 2005


    Was she asking for FEMA and federal assistance to be ready from the start?
    President Bush declared a state of emergency in Louisiana on Saturday because of the approach of Hurricane Katrina and his spokesman urged residents along the coast to heed authorities' advice to evacuate.
    ...
    Officials from the Federal Emergency Management Agency continue to coordinate with state authorities in Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana and Alabama, and have prepositioned supplies in areas expected to be affected, he said. ...
    posted by amberglow at 12:00 PM on September 2, 2005


    "Wow, BushCo supporters stand silent for three days while...(they all go/stay on vacation"

    Not to apologise for dios (or 2nd guess him) in any way, but I think the opposition line in this thread should go something like this:
    how can you kick Bush’s ass for doing nothing, not showing leadership, when, if he does, it’s presumed it’s only a photo op?

    I’m glad to see this. I readily concede it could have - SHOULD have - been done earlier, better, stronger, and it speaks volumes about the character of those in our administration who, with a tragedy in the making, are out “recreatin’” (to quote Bush the Greater or ‘Bush the Elder’ for you Greekophiles). It’s debatable whether Rice is an absolute necessity, but it looks bad to be out gedunking when people’s lives are in peril.

    If it looks bad for them to recreate - does it not look good for them to be seen on scene?

    I do believe it’s unfair, once their asses are in gear, to say they are motivated purely by self-interest.
    ....It’s certainly understandable, but again unfair, once the relief is heading down the pike.

    I’m happy to kick Bush in the ass for not hitting dirt early on, getting his hands dirty (metaphorically of course) but that’s past.
    He’s there. He’s involved. It’s what he should be doing.


    (all this apart from previous and in many cases valid criticism of preparations, priority or resources, Iraq, etc. etc. and others’ culpability of course.)
    posted by Smedleyman at 12:10 PM on September 2, 2005


    US Senator: Death toll in Louisiana could be above 10,000.
    posted by ericb at 12:11 PM on September 2, 2005


    (before Bush shows up)
    Metafilter: Where the fuck is Bush?
    (after he shows up)
    Metafilter: Fucking photo-op!
    posted by b_thinky at 12:11 PM on September 2, 2005


    Katrina May Cut Payrolls by 500,000 This Month.
    posted by ericb at 12:13 PM on September 2, 2005


    Democrats and Others Criticize White House's Response to Disaster.
    posted by ericb at 12:14 PM on September 2, 2005


    how can you kick Bush’s ass for doing nothing, not showing leadership, when, if he does, it’s presumed it’s only a photo op?

    There are (at least) two SAR helicopters sitting unused behind Bush while he puts on a serious face for the cameras. Those helicopters could be bringing supplies and airlifting victims out of the region. That they aren't in the air is just one more reminder of how this clown is totally fucking useless.
    posted by Rothko at 12:15 PM on September 2, 2005


    before Bush shows up)
    Metafilter: Where the fuck is Bush?
    (after he shows up)
    FIVE DAYS LATER
    Metafilter: Fucking photo-op!
    posted by b_thinky

    posted by Floydd at 12:15 PM on September 2, 2005


    "President Bush Diverts Critical Resources For Photo-Op ."

    I'd stand corrected if that wasn't such a partisan site. That and - c'mon, look at the heilo there.

    rush - if you're reading this, feel free to chime in as to what kind of chopper that is.
    (as far as I know, slicks are better for rescue ops, carrying people, cargo, etc.)

    Not to be an asshole...(it's usually too late when you say that) but that kind of proves the political exploitation I think was alluded to.

    ...on the other hand, while I see some criticism from republicans, who else is going to critique his work?
    posted by Smedleyman at 12:17 PM on September 2, 2005


    Planning, Response Are Faulted
    "Experts said one of the major problems with the response effort was an ineffective evacuation that began just 24 hours before the storm hit. Though models for such a storm accurately portrayed the circumstances that arose -- a levee breach, flooding, stagnant water, inaccessible portions of the city and large numbers of people unable to leave -- more than 100,000 people remained when the storm hit.

    Some people were simply too poor to pick up their lives, and others unwisely figured they could ride out the hurricane in their homes because they had done so in the past. But Rep William J. Jefferson (D-La.) said there was a failure to think about a 'holistic approach to the evacuation effort.'

    Jack Harrald, director of the Institute for Crisis, Disaster and Risk Management at George Washington University, said researchers and academics have for years been studying New Orleans because of its particular vulnerabilities to disaster. In the Natural Hazards Observer in Nov. 2004, Shirley Laska, director of the Center for Hazards Assessment, Response and Technology at the University of New Orleans, predicted a direct hit could produce 'conditions never before experienced in a North American disaster' and said evacuation problems would be severe."

    posted by ericb at 12:17 PM on September 2, 2005


    You're exactly right Floydd, where was he 5 days ago?
    posted by Pollomacho at 12:19 PM on September 2, 2005


    I was so happy seeing those vehicles rolling into New Orleans. There are people who just this morning were probably wondering if they could make it through another night alone and hot and thirsty and afraid. Thankfully, more than a few of them will get a hot bath and a hot meal and, hopefully, all the cold water they can drink.
    posted by LeeJay at 12:21 PM on September 2, 2005


    Jeez...President Bush is damned by the wingnuts if he shows up early, and damned if he shows up late. Asses.

    He's also damned because a few helicopters were behind him -- newsflash, binky, resources are "diverted" ANY TIME the President travels ANY WHERE for ANY REASON. He doesn't have much say in the matter -- the media, the Secret Service, the military, and a host of others are doing a million things behind the scenes whenever POTUS is on the move -- they have to, it's their job.
    posted by davidmsc at 12:22 PM on September 2, 2005


    (before Bush shows up)
    Metafilter: Where the fuck is Bush?
    (after he shows up)
    Metafilter: Fucking photo-op!


    Both are perfectly valid responses, in my opinion. When Bush didn't do diddly-poo for three days, I found myself thinking, "Where the fuck is Bush?" When he does finally arrive in Mississippi, he has a very carefully planned short walk through the disaster, followed by a smerking, half-assed, empty statement filled presser. This is all capped off with a cute little kiss to the top of the head of someone that has lost everything, complete with the audio of a thousand cameras flashing. Fucking photo-op indeed!
    posted by Armen Tanzarian at 12:23 PM on September 2, 2005


    President Bush is damned by the wingnuts if he shows up early, and damned if he shows up late.

    Davidmsc, does this mean I get to call my boss a "wingnut" if I show up late to work?
    posted by Rothko at 12:25 PM on September 2, 2005


    There seems something of a convention that says one not directly involved but watching, thinking, observing is to suspend all judgement till someone at some time in some place says Ok, now you can be critical, make judgments, get angry that things have not been done in a better fashion. I imagine it is the same sort of thing that says we are not to speak ill of the dead, not boast if we win and someone else loses etc.

    Perhaps, just perhaps, enough instant outrage expressed when it ought to be might get those in charge, involved to do things that ought to be done and in a better manner.

    Is is permissible for those hungry, thirsty, homeless, ill, seriously depressed to speak up and curse, bewail, scream for help?

    Please advise so I can act properly
    posted by Postroad at 12:25 PM on September 2, 2005


    pyramid_termite: the president had a job to do and didn't do it in time

    Here's the thing that bothers me: The president shouldn't have had to do anything. FEMA and the National Guard should have been on the case from day minus-three or so, but they weren't. Why?

    Could it possibly be because FEMA is now a stepchild buried in the DHS bureaucracy?

    It used to be that when FEMA said "Boo!", people jumped. Not because they were scared of FEMA, but because they understood that at that place and at that time (to paraphrase an old soldier), they were in charge.

    No more. People sat around waiting for orders. Well, FEMA and the Guard did. The Coast Guard and private citizens were all out there in force; hell, the effing Navy moved unilaterally to reposition boats. But everyone else .... waited.

    Could this be a management problem? Nah....
    posted by lodurr at 12:26 PM on September 2, 2005


    Also, not to break up the snark, and at the risk of revealing myself to be an even bigger melodramatic sap, I would love to just stand at the evacuation centers and give every single person who gets off of those buses a hug.

    OK, I'm going to go back to the Nagin thread so I can get sour and bitter again.
    posted by LeeJay at 12:26 PM on September 2, 2005


    Re ericb's link above: you Bush supporters who think you're obliged to Stand By Your Man no matter what may find this interesting:

    "[Republican US Senator David] Vitter, speaking to reporters at the emergency response center in Baton Rouge, also said he gave the federal government a grade 'F' for its response to the disaster so far."

    Wow! You can be a Republican AND criticize the president! Ever thought of that, DIOS, et. al.? Huh?
    posted by scody at 12:26 PM on September 2, 2005


    I think we're all well aware that "Presidential Movement" (as we call it when Reagan National gets told to pause) has an impact on resources and mobility and I do think the reactions have been over the top about the choppers behind him in the shot. However I think it's also reasonable that the person at the center of that maelstrom and his immediate handlers take a little responsibility and try to not let their organized chaos get in the way of the real work or divert needed resources from the job at hand.

    In other words, if you didn't feel like you needed to put down the mai-tai a few days early then maybe you could do your current preening out of the way of the real work? KTNXBYE.
    posted by phearlez at 12:27 PM on September 2, 2005


    We didn't care whether Bush actually went to NOLA, we cared about whether he sent help, which he didn't.

    Pay attention, asshat.
    posted by bshort at 12:28 PM on September 2, 2005


    is damned by the wingnuts

    Get your slurs straight! We're "moonbats."
    posted by fungible at 12:28 PM on September 2, 2005


    "That they aren't in the air is just one more reminder of how this clown is totally fucking useless."

    Not to belabor the point, but I'm not getting that. Or rather, it seems like an extrapolation. Perhaps they're refueling. Perhaps they're being serviced. Choppers are tricky bastards. I have no idea.

    But perhaps he did set them up just to look macho. I don't see the flight suit, but it has happened before, so I concede the possiblity.

    But again, you either want him there or not. I'm in no way letting him slide on the other stuff. Just pointing out the general theme - he sucks because he's not there, then when he is there, he sucks for being there - divorced from other considerations naturally.

    *tap tap tap* is this thing on? Folks reading those qualifiers?

    He's helping because he's the officeholder, not because he's G.W. Bush. Clear? A monkey who represented the office of President would bring gravitas with him. It's why people get put out of kilter about flag burning. It's the symbolism. He's the President. He should be there. He is.
    again - all this divorced from the other considerations.
    posted by Smedleyman at 12:29 PM on September 2, 2005


    I'm kind of amazed how many 'get-dios' comments were posted -- must be well over half this thread. At the risk of appearing to be a dios-apologist (again) I can view his comment as coming from passionate caring --- I sure as hell wouldn't frame it in the same manner but 'MeFi' has in fact been doing a lot of Bushbashing in the last couple of days (and yes yes yes of course it is at least partly justified) where in fact this whole tragedy is just soooo much more complicated than mere Bush administration failures.

    When I first read dios's comments I kind of understood - and maybe I'm giving too wide a benefit of the doubt here - that although laying blame is of course necessary, the fact that things appear to be moving towards a satisfactory stage in the recovery seems to warrant some level of rejoicing rather than as an opportunity to focus rage. I'm an ocean removed and maybe the left-right demarcation line doesn't quite so affect my vision but sheesh, the guy seemed only to lament politicizing over expressions of relief. No great deal in the big scheme of things. *ducks*
    posted by peacay at 12:32 PM on September 2, 2005


    I hate Bush as much as the next leftist nut, but out of all the things you could criticize him for, using this as a photo op is just dumb. Had he gone down the DAY the hurricane hit, or 5 days from now, it would be a photo op. Same for any president. Perhaps be upset that's the way our media and our government works, but don't be retarded and declare this is just a publicity stunt. Direct your rage at everything else that has gone wrong so far, but this is just a waste of time.

    Chandy72, I too felt physically relieved when I saw the photos of the trucks. Thank [whatever deity you do or don't pray to], even if its late.
    posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:33 PM on September 2, 2005


    I am glad these supplies are rolling in. That is great news.

    BUT, WHY DID IT TAKE SO F***ING LONG?
    posted by caddis at 12:33 PM on September 2, 2005


    But perhaps he did set them up just to look macho. I don't see the flight suit, but it has happened before, so I concede the possiblity.

    Thanks for conceding the possibility. Ever watch presidential coverage on Fox? It's always glossy, ballsy and slick — five days is plenty of time to plan the right backdrop for the cameras.
    posted by Rothko at 12:33 PM on September 2, 2005


    Why can't you apologists realize that this is NOT an isolated incident and is reflective of everything the admin has done (or not done)...You'd think Dubya would have learned about responding to disasters, since one prolly caused Poppy's defeat in 1992.
    posted by rzklkng at 12:36 PM on September 2, 2005


    ... I can view his comment as coming from passionate caring ...

    I could buy that, if his comment had actually been reflective of the thread to that point. I went back and looked it over just to be sure, and I really didn't see what looked to me like a deficiency of relief. I saw anger that the assistance was days late and treasuries short, but I did also see genuine relief.

    Why dios didn't see it is something only he can address...
    posted by lodurr at 12:37 PM on September 2, 2005


    Argybarge: I understand your frustration. When will the American people wake up and make President Bush pay for the hurricane's destruction?
    posted by esquire at 12:38 PM on September 2, 2005


    Caddis: because teleporters only exist in science fiction.
    posted by esquire at 12:38 PM on September 2, 2005


    Peacay: I think it is time for get-Peacay posts now.
    posted by esquire at 12:39 PM on September 2, 2005


    Again, I don't believe in feeding the troll, but how can anyone of sound mind argue against the politicization of this issue when the President appointed a political crony as the head of FEMA and not a professional?
    posted by docgonzo at 12:40 PM on September 2, 2005


    how can you kick Bush’s ass for doing nothing, not showing leadership, when, if he does, it’s presumed it’s only a photo op?

    Because what he's doing is neither doing something nor showing leadership. Waving from a fucking airborne sedan chair is not what we're after.
    posted by cillit bang at 12:40 PM on September 2, 2005


    Jeez...President Bush is damned by the wingnuts if he shows up early, and damned if he shows up late. Asses.

    Actually, here's where you're wrong. Going to the affected areas is the exact wrong thing to do because his mere presence sucks resources from the rescue efforts. When people want to know "where is President Bush" they don't mean "what is the President's location". They're being imprecise about asking "what is the President doing about this". To wit, the President can show that he actually has his shit straight and gives a fuck about what's going on in New Orleans without actually being in New Orleans or Mississippi or wherever he stages his photo-ops.

    If you don't get it; now you know. If you're being obtuse from the outset, then you and President Bush have something in common.
    posted by clearlynuts at 12:40 PM on September 2, 2005


    Is is permissible for those hungry, thirsty, homeless, ill, seriously depressed to speak up and curse, bewail, scream for help?

    Please advise so I can act properly
    posted by Postroad


    Of course not. They're directly responsible for their plight!
    Instead of waiting for the Federal Government to bail them out, they should have grabbed a coffee can and started bailing themselves.
    Slackers.
    posted by Floydd at 12:40 PM on September 2, 2005


    Red Cross on clothing donations: .... in-kind donations can also have the effect of hampering the relief effort ...
    They'd rather have financial contributions or blood.
    posted by tizzie at 12:41 PM on September 2, 2005


    So esquire, why weren't they there Wednesday? I know it is just soooo hard to get organized, especially when we knew there was trouble last Saturday, and the levee failed Monday night, but why the delay? Incompetence on the part of FEMA, that is why. With all of the years of planning for just such an event, and the deaths occurring by the hour, saying these things take time just doesn't cut it.
    posted by caddis at 12:42 PM on September 2, 2005


    Guide to appropriate giving.
    posted by tizzie at 12:43 PM on September 2, 2005


    "Ever watch presidential coverage on Fox?"
    I stopped watching seconds after a .40 hollowpoint hit my television screen.

    "Could this be a management problem? Nah...."

    Same problems in the Harding administration lodurr .
    Everything went through the gang of four. Take away people’s initiative, the shit hits the fan.
    It’s the problem with too much power, you can’t be everywhere and do everything.
    Old maxium: once you give orders on something, people will expect orders and guidance from you on that all the time.
    Best to let your people take the initiative. Those who do, get promoted. Those who don’t, continue to sweep floors. Easy enough. Unfortunately some people with no leadership skills are born rich...
    ...and for some bizzare reason people believe rich folks are more qualified in handling resources.
    I’ve always found, given equal training, the opposite to be true.
    I worked with a non-com who grew up in public housing. She managed things like there was never going to be another supply shipment. Bush’s attitude seems to be there are endless tomorrows. If it is, it’s not an uncommon trait among the privileged folks I’ve met.
    posted by Smedleyman at 12:46 PM on September 2, 2005


    fenriq : Dios, thanks, you finally got me pissed off enough to install GreaseMonkey and the kill file so I'll never have to read another one of your trollish comments.

    Isn't it great? Personally, I've found that [killed comment] is generally more insightful than anything Dios might have to say.
    posted by mullingitover at 12:46 PM on September 2, 2005


    give me greasemonkey somebody--pls.

    CNNL: The big disconnect on New Orleans
    posted by amberglow at 12:48 PM on September 2, 2005


    It's more important for dios to attack us instead of the people responsible for this failure which is resulting in deaths--more every minute. Nice. Your concern for the many many thousands of starving people is showing in spades.

    Actually, amberglow, he's got a pretty good point. Particularly after you demeaned the efforts of first responders, and then proceeded to tell me, from the comfort of your desk chair, how air drops should be conducted. Many of the denizens of this site will release the hounds at a moment's notice for anything they think they might be able to tie to Bush in a negative manner, and being an utter dick about the efforts of people who are scared shitless, and standing chest-deep in water with a shotgun is just part of the game. I tried very hard to express just how little of a priority it was for the President to show up and shake hands with folks, and many of you (and you, specifically, amberglow) argued with me. Now he shows up and people want to bitch about it?

    Pick a position. It doesn't even have to be defensible. It would be too much to ask that it would be a position of genuine empathy, as opposed to political sniping.
    posted by rush at 12:50 PM on September 2, 2005


    "Waving from a fucking airborne sedan chair is not what we're after."
    Not trying to be argumentative, cillit bang, but what are you after?

    Now, I mean. For Bush right now. The relief is on the way.
    - Only thing I can think of offhand is he should give the green light to accepting foreign aid. Big mistake not doing that.
    posted by Smedleyman at 12:51 PM on September 2, 2005


    Metafilter: [killed comment]


    Irony in the communication of ideas. (no offense, I’m not criticising, just getting a kick out of it.)
    posted by Smedleyman at 12:53 PM on September 2, 2005


    Dios, ignore the a-holes in this thread. Anyone with an iota of knowledge of US government knows that Washington has a terciary role in these kind of disasters. It's not Washington's fault (or FEMA's) that there are, apparently, a bunch of zeros running NO and, apparently, LA. These are the same people who think the economy is still in terrible shape nationally; who think Bushy is the Devil, and that Howard Dean and John Kerry are not political disgraces.

    Actually, keep the intelligent, sane comments coming, Dios!
    posted by ParisParamus at 12:54 PM on September 2, 2005


    rush, I'd send you e-mail or a pm on this, but we don't have it.

    What kind of chopper is that behind Bush?
    posted by Smedleyman at 12:55 PM on September 2, 2005


    I don't know which thread to put this in, or whether anybody's already posted this, but I just saw (thanks to DSL) an in interesting (if tiny) view clip from BBC News.

    At the end of a "typical" (GACK) segment showing mothers weeping and bodies rotting, the reporter refers to what we've just seen -- and then the camera turns up the street and he says something like "All these people are suffering down here, and up there there are dozens of police, all concerned about one looter in that store over."

    I could taste his disgust that the shoot-to-kill-looters policy took precedence over all these suffering people. And yes, most of the "refugeees in their own city" were black, and it looked to me -- again on a TINY inline Realplayer window, from a video camera's zoom lens -- that the cops shown being all concerned with one looter were white.
    posted by davy at 12:55 PM on September 2, 2005


    Pick a position. It doesn't even have to be defensible. It would be too much to ask that it would be a position of genuine empathy, as opposed to political sniping.
    I, and most others here, have had one position all along--to help those people. That's it. Help didn't come, and is only NOW starting to come. That's unacceptable--beyond unacceptable. If we're lashing out at those in charge, it's because they DIDN'T DO THEIR FUCKING JOBS.

    I'm still waiting to see pictures of people actually being fed and given water. Convoys rolled in how many hours ago?
    posted by amberglow at 12:56 PM on September 2, 2005


    Smedleyman: Can you point to even one person who complained about bush, as a single person, not being there before the help arived?

    I don't care where bush is. I care about the busses and food supplies to help those refugees.

    It's like you're not even paying attention to what other people are saying.

    Bush can have all the photo ops he wants as long as the people get fed and evacuated ASAP.
    posted by delmoi at 12:56 PM on September 2, 2005


    Pick a position. It doesn't even have to be defensible.

    Your logical fallacy (and that of Dios, dare I mention God's name) is coming up with the idea that criticizing Bush for his five-day absence and critcizing Bush for taking advantage of the disaster for photo-ops are mutually exclusive positions, which they are most certainly not.
    posted by Rothko at 12:58 PM on September 2, 2005


    Dios, ignore the a-holes in this thread. Anyone with an iota of knowledge of US government knows that Washington has a terciary role in these kind of disasters.

    You're an idiot.
    posted by delmoi at 12:58 PM on September 2, 2005


    "Irony in the communication of ideas."
    Smedleyman at 12:53 PM PST on September 2 chuckling at the need to block out other's comments in light of the blog purpose to communicate.


    "Dios, ignore the a-holes in this thread."
    ParisParamus at 12:54 PM PST on September 2 [!]



    Seconds later, I stand corrected.
    posted by Smedleyman at 12:58 PM on September 2, 2005


    Dios, PP, I'm a bit confused on your position. What is the role of government?
    posted by TwelveTwo at 12:59 PM on September 2, 2005


    Anyone with an iota of knowledge of US government knows that Washington has a terciary role in these kind of disasters.
    posted by ParisParamus at 12:59 PM on September 2, 2005


    Isn't the corps of engineers in charge of maintaining the levees? That seems like a primary role....
    posted by mr_roboto at 1:00 PM on September 2, 2005


    Rothko, I'm not sure that I came up with that idea.
    posted by rush at 1:02 PM on September 2, 2005


    Anyone with an iota of knowledge of US government knows that Washington has a terciary role in these kind of disasters.

    Why does FEMA exist, idiot? Why do we have National Guard?
    posted by amberglow at 1:02 PM on September 2, 2005


    And the National Hurricane Center, run by NOAA, is certainly a branch of the federal government with a primary role in hurricane planning....
    posted by mr_roboto at 1:02 PM on September 2, 2005


    Anyone with an iota of knowledge of US government knows that Washington has a terciary [sic] role in these kind of disasters.
    Saying it over and over does not make it true Paris.
    posted by Pollomacho at 1:03 PM on September 2, 2005


    Anyone with an iota of knowledge of US government knows that Washington has a terciary role in these kind of disasters.
    posted by ParisParamus at 3:59 PM EST on September 2 [!]


    What were all those USAF fighter jets doing flying over NYC after 9/11? Sightseeing?
    posted by Rothko at 1:04 PM on September 2, 2005


    Anyone with an iota of knowledge of US government knows that Washington has a terciary role in these kind of disasters.

    Hence the FEDERAL Emergency Management Agency. The U.S. ARMY Corps of Engineers. The NATIONAL Guard. Yes, yes: weekend sewing clubs, all. Everyone knows that major, billion-dollar disasters are fixed by the efforts of city councils.

    Also, it's "tertiary," you fucking moron. And just for the record: yes, I despise you, and hope fervently that you keep your promise to leave Metafilter forever; moreover, I hope you fall down a fucking well and rot to death waiting for help to arrive that never does.
    posted by scody at 1:05 PM on September 2, 2005


    OK, peacay, I’ll bite. You suggest that dios is simply expressing his compassion for the hurricane victims. I thought that might be a possibility, so I looked up his other comments on the subject. Every single one of them, without exception, was in defense of the administration’s actions. Before he made the comment in this thread, he hadn’t made a single comment, not a single one, expressing compassion for the hurricane victims. Not one.

    I conclude that he was waiting to strike, saving up the moral outrage for the perfect moment. Maybe he's not a troll, technically, since he may actually believe what he's saying. But he's certainly an asshole.
    posted by MrMoonPie at 1:06 PM on September 2, 2005


    "What is the role of government?"

    It's not a question of what the role of government is. It's a question of who has primary, or rather, initial responsibility for relief efforts. The US isn't France. We don't have a national police force--thankfully. NO's Police is known for being corrupt and incompetent, but at the very least, Lousiana should have had a legitimate plan in place to restore order and provide relief. Washington comes in later, just days later, but that's a fundamental difference.

    Then again, I still don't know how much of the current situation is a function of governmental incompetence, and how much is a function of NO being in a real stupid place. You know, when an 8 or 9 earthquake finally hits California, do you really think thousands of people won't die? There's only so much government, MAN can do in these situations.

    newsflash: YOU KNOW LESS THAN YOU THINK YOU DO.
    posted by ParisParamus at 1:07 PM on September 2, 2005


    Read MrMoonPie's comment again, everyone:

    You suggest that dios is simply expressing his compassion for the hurricane victims. I thought that might be a possibility, so I looked up his other comments on the subject. Every single one of them, without exception, was in defense of the administration’s actions. Before he made the comment in this thread, he hadn’t made a single comment, not a single one, expressing compassion for the hurricane victims. Not one.
    posted by scody at 1:08 PM on September 2, 2005


    amberglow, you continue to demean the efforts of first responders, and it's driving me a bit batty. Here's how it works, as explained by a humble "idiot":

    1. Local first responders jump in to assist in the event of an emergency. It doesn't matter what the US governement thinks about anything, local first responders are the fastest and most effective first response to any point crisis. Hence, "first responders."

    2. State response units, as well as the response units from surrounding areas respond. These people are close, and know the area, so they are next in line to arrive at the site of a crisis situation. This can be everything from the active National Guard in the crisis state to local military.

    3. National response. This includes Federal resources from other parts of the country, as well as the armed forces as you are commonly aware of them.

    Hence, yes, the Federal government takes a tertiary role.
    posted by rush at 1:09 PM on September 2, 2005


    Metafilter: YOU KNOW LESS THAN YOU THINK YOU DO
    posted by Rothko at 1:09 PM on September 2, 2005


    "What were all those USAF fighter jets doing flying over NYC after 9/11? Sightseeing?"

    Relief isn't delivery by small supersonic jets.

    "Also, it's "tertiary," you fucking moron. And just for the record: yes, I despise you, and hope fervently that you keep your promise to leave Metafilter forever; moreover, I hope you fall down a fucking well and rot to death waiting for help to arrive that never does."

    Scody, light onto the nations!
    posted by ParisParamus at 1:09 PM on September 2, 2005


    Not trying to be argumentative, cillit bang, but what are you after?

    Well currently he's acting like the Queen opening a new hospital in Milton Keynes, all smiles and pretending to be interested. Isn't he meant to be in charge? Maybe not constitutionally, but I'm sure he had the leverage to make things happen a little bit quicker than they did.
    posted by cillit bang at 1:10 PM on September 2, 2005


    Hey, third helpings:

    OK, peacay, I’ll bite. You suggest that dios is simply expressing his compassion for the hurricane victims. I thought that might be a possibility, so I looked up his other comments on the subject. Every single one of them, without exception, was in defense of the administration’s actions. Before he made the comment in this thread, he hadn’t made a single comment, not a single one, expressing compassion for the hurricane victims. Not one.
    posted by Rothko at 1:11 PM on September 2, 2005


    Smedleyman, in what photo?
    posted by rush at 1:11 PM on September 2, 2005


    "The Federal Emergency Management Agency - a former independent agency that became part of the new Department of Homeland Security in March 2003 - is tasked with responding to, planning for, recovering from and mitigating against disasters."

    "In March 2003, FEMA joined 22 other federal agencies, programs and offices in becoming the Department of Homeland Security. The new department, headed by Secretary Tom Ridge, brought a coordinated approach to national security from emergencies and disasters - both natural and man-made."

    "As it has for more than 20 years, FEMA's mission remains: to lead America to prepare for, prevent, respond to and recover from disasters with a vision of "A Nation Prepared.""

    Source : Fema.gov.
    posted by selfnoise at 1:12 PM on September 2, 2005


    Huh. The trucks finally arrive in New Orleans and all the usual Metafilter wingnuts come crawling out of the woodwork. Color me surprised.
    posted by Armitage Shanks at 1:13 PM on September 2, 2005


    Again, this cannot all be blamed on Hurricane Katrina or President Bush: this issue shows how rotten the American system is. I doubt even successfully dethroning Bush (to replace him with Dick "Halliburton" Cheney?) will have any effect, and I doubt that voting in a liberal-sounding Democrat in 2008 (THREE YEARS in the future) will produce anything but more liberal-sounding lies and bullshit. Ranting about Bush is fun but it's ultimately a diversion. The problem is even bigger than that.

    And PP, the role of the government is to keep the rich bastards in power and to get them more power. You're right, everything else is tertiary: if they felt their power was sufficiently endangered they'd let everybody in New Orleans starve and rot.
    posted by davy at 1:13 PM on September 2, 2005


    Scody, you deserve a two week time-out from Metafilter. I can't post to Metatalk this week again--too bad.
    posted by ParisParamus at 1:14 PM on September 2, 2005


    Yes, FEMA, and for that matter, the Federal government, has a role in emergency response. It is, more specifically, a tertiary role.
    posted by rush at 1:14 PM on September 2, 2005


    ParisP - heh, that was deep stuff you wrote there, careful you dont hurt yourself with your keyboard kid.
    posted by rawfishy at 1:15 PM on September 2, 2005


    "Can you point to even one person who complained about bush, as a single person, not being there before the help arived? "

    I did. Lots. He needs to be ‘on hand’. Not necessarially right there in the thick of things, but you need the CiC to show how serious things are and how serious he is about getting things done.

    I vaguely remember (in another thread) someone arguing about how his presence affects the mindset of other workers, etc.

    Sp In short, at the very least I’ve been saying it. He should have been doing it to show the commitment and to show leadership. I’ve already granted he may be currently doing it in a self-serving manner.

    "It's like you're not even paying attention to what other people are saying."
    Ah. Irony. Perhaps you’re not paying attention to my qualifiers? I’m not sure there is an argument there.
    What Bush did before. Bad.
    The relief is on it’s way. Good.
    Bush opportunism. Maybe. Maybe not. I don’t know.

    He has a history of it, but I don’t care because I believe a good commander leads from the front. By example. Being involved and in the area is, in my opinion, one chit in his favor.
    That doesn’t change the validity of the other criticism.
    But perception is a big part of politics as it is with leadership.

    Good lord, can't a man be reasonable?
    posted by Smedleyman at 1:15 PM on September 2, 2005


    amberglow, you continue to demean the efforts of first responders, and it's driving me a bit batty. Here's how it works, as explained by a humble "idiot"

    When Bush declares a state of emergency and FEMA says it's prepositioning supplies on Saturday night as Katrina approaches, it's a joint effort, or should have been. The local and state officials were screaming for help even before it hit. Don't tell me what i'm demeaning. I'm demeaning those people with the power to feed hundreds of thousands--something still not done, with the power to move all those people to safety--something still not done, with the power to devote the entire country's resources to an unprecedented disaster and get all those resources to the affected area, etc.
    posted by amberglow at 1:15 PM on September 2, 2005


    "What were all those USAF fighter jets doing flying over NYC after 9/11? Sightseeing?"

    Relief isn't delivery by small supersonic jets.


    I think most reasonable people would agree those jets were there in defense of the city from further attacks, and, to stretch a metaphor, constitute "relief" in that sense.

    Anyway, you're being dishonest about what you said. The federal government is in place to protect and defend the public. Its role is hardly "terciary" or "tertiary" with respect to disasters on this scale.
    posted by Rothko at 1:16 PM on September 2, 2005


    "A Nation Prepared."
    It's not just a phrase, it's a slogan!
    posted by Floydd at 1:16 PM on September 2, 2005


    What Bush did before. Bad.
    The relief is on it’s way. Good.
    Bush opportunism. Maybe. Maybe not. I don’t know.


    Good summary, Smedleyman.
    posted by rush at 1:16 PM on September 2, 2005


    newsflash: YOU KNOW LESS THAN YOU THINK YOU DO.

    Conceded. Now you.
    posted by all-seeing eye dog at 1:17 PM on September 2, 2005


    AlexReynolds, you can shut the fuck up, k?

    While you have been sitting here all week playing 101st keyboard warriors responders, I (and members of my firm) have doing things to actually help these people as they pile into Dallas. Notice my lack of comments over the last two days. So you can kiss my ass if you want to use my comment history on this topic to questing whether I have compassion.

    You, and amberglow, and the rest of your fucking brigade care infintely more about the political spinning of this tragedy then you do with the people. One only has to point to which issues are of more importance.

    How anyone can look at what has happened and worry about how it will be spinned is beyond me. People who do are the lowest form of slime.

    Bush and the federal government may not have done everything as soon as possible, and there will be a time to argue this point (there will probably be investigations by Congress, etc.) But while efforts are still on-going and people are still being pulled out of there, the fact that you seem more concerned with spilling ink about why Bush deserves to be impeached only goes to show how pathetic many of you are.

    I'm not wasting any more time here.
    posted by dios at 1:17 PM on September 2, 2005


    Yes, FEMA, and for that matter, the Federal government, has a more important role than getting food, water and medical care to the "refugees in their own city". See my previous comment.
    posted by davy at 1:17 PM on September 2, 2005


    rush: President Bush Diverts Critical Resources For Photo-Op

    here:
    http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/02/photo-op-2/
    posted by Smedleyman at 1:17 PM on September 2, 2005


    Scody, my dear. Tertiary and Terciary are both accepted spellings. Also, bet I went to better schools than you. Nah nah nah nah nah!
    posted by ParisParamus at 1:19 PM on September 2, 2005


    I'm not wasting any more time here.
    posted by dios


    Don't forget to stop by MeTa for the obligatory flame-out!
    posted by Floydd at 1:20 PM on September 2, 2005


    I'm not wasting any more time here.
    posted by dios at 4:17 PM EST on September 2 [!]


    You keep saying that, again and again, but you never follow through. Try harder next time.
    posted by Rothko at 1:20 PM on September 2, 2005


    I'm still curious to know what PP thinks the role of government is. I wasn't arguing, I just wasn't understanding his stance. I'll go sit outside the conversation, confused and ignored. :(
    posted by TwelveTwo at 1:20 PM on September 2, 2005


    I'm not wasting any more time here.

    Stop making false promises, troll.
    posted by Armitage Shanks at 1:20 PM on September 2, 2005


    MrMoonPie perhaps you're right. I just read the comment on the fly and honestly, I'm generally not in enough political threads to have formed a longview opinion about dios. But he can defend himself or not.
    ParisParamus, does your highhorse have a lift installed or must you take the stairs?

    "Any chance that the food and aid will go to waste since everyone is now heading to Texas?"... oh the twisted irony.

    In any event, shit I'm glad there's some positive action. Food and fucking water. Those poor harassed bastards. And praise ought to be given for all those helpers around - Houston alone sound like it's going to be crammed to the rafters. Good on you all.
    on preview...well there be dios now.
    posted by peacay at 1:21 PM on September 2, 2005


    shit I'm glad there's some positive action
    Yes, peacay, I think that's a sentiment we can all agree with. Thank you to all the workers out there slogging through the muck to get what's needed to the people who need it.
    posted by MrMoonPie at 1:24 PM on September 2, 2005


    Peacay, all I'm saying is that it's assinine and ignorant to start pointing blame at this point; and it's especially suspect when people on Metafilter start blaming the President--gee what a surprise.
    posted by ParisParamus at 1:26 PM on September 2, 2005


    Scody, you deserve a two week time-out from Metafilter.

    For what? For finally getting angry with you in the middle of the worst fucking disaster of my lifetime while you sit there and pontificate about how it's not the federal government's role to save people's lives?! Sure, fine: if that renders me a timeout, so be it (though you've said FAR fucing worse far more times in all the years I've read MeFi, and you've gotten away scot-free with it over and over and over a-fuckin-gain). My anger also renders me fully fucking human, which is more than I've always suspected can be said for you.

    Scody, my dear. Tertiary and Terciary are both accepted spellings.

    Not according to Webster's, American Heritage, Cambridge, or Oxford (online). None of them list "terciary" as an accepted spelling. None.

    Also, bet I went to better schools than you. Nah nah nah nah nah!

    Keep it up. You're making yourself look better and better all the time.
    posted by scody at 1:27 PM on September 2, 2005


    "I (and members of my firm) have doing things to actually help these people as they pile into Dallas."

    Well MY dick is 9.5 inches and my wife walks bowlegged 6X's a week, four times on Saturdays.


    ....oh, sorry.


    (We should all do what we can. And probably are. Partisan stuff aside, I suspect you all are much more than you are on-line)



    Metafilter: Don't forget to stop by MeTa for the obligatory flame-out!
    posted by Smedleyman at 1:28 PM on September 2, 2005


    it's especially suspect when people on Metafilter start blaming the President--gee what a surprise.

    What about when members of his own party start doing it (see Vitter, David and Gingrich, Newt)? Is it a surprise then?
    posted by scody at 1:29 PM on September 2, 2005


    AlexReynolds, you can shut the fuck up, k?
    I just noticed this. I don't know if dios is implying that Mr. Reynolds and I are the same person, if he's responding to something else, or if he's merely confused about who posted what. For the record, I'm not AlexReynolds; I think there are plenty of folks here who can vouch for that fact.
    posted by MrMoonPie at 1:29 PM on September 2, 2005


    This horrible event may finally give the media the courage they need to finally criticize the ineptitude demonstrated by this administration for the past several years.

    Since 9/11, every talking head feared that they'd be labeled a traitor for speaking out against this administration's bungled handling of the War on Terror.

    Bush, Cheney, et al. made sure to wrap themselves in the flag and make it seem as if any criticism of *them* was a criticism of America.

    Well...we were attacked by a hurricane this time, and there's nothing for BushCo. to hide behind since everything has been wiped out. Their mishandling of FEMA and their misappropriation of the National Guard had direct and horrific consequences in New Orleans this week and I have a sneaking suspicion that the media won't let them walk away so easily this time.

    After the rescue effort is over, and the support/clean-up effort begins, we, as a nation, must hold accountable, all those who failed the people of the Gulf Coast Region.

    This *IS* political. Politics stopped the funding from getting to the areas that needed it most, politics left New Orleans in the lurch. Politics sent our Nation Guard to a far distant land to fight some ill-conceived war, and politics will eventually bring them (and all of our troops) home so they can truly protect our nation, and help out in future disasters/attacks such as that which happened in America these past several days.
    posted by mr.curmudgeon at 1:30 PM on September 2, 2005


    selfnoise: I think you copied it improperly from the FEMA website.

    It should read: "As it has for more than 20 years, FEMA's mission remains: to lead in a tertiary role America to prepare for, prevent, respond to and recover from disasters with a vision of 'A Nation Prepared.'"
    posted by ericb at 1:30 PM on September 2, 2005


    "This horrible event may finally give the media the courage they need to finally criticize the ineptitude demonstrated by this administration for the past several years."

    You mean the excellence, don't you? Why is it the Left is still in denial over the fact that only a small minority of voters agrees with them? Similar comments were made before the 2002 elections, and the 2004 election. Get a new plan, man!
    posted by ParisParamus at 1:35 PM on September 2, 2005


    I just noticed this. I don't know if dios is implying that Mr. Reynolds and I are the same person, if he's responding to something else, or if he's merely confused about who posted what. For the record, I'm not AlexReynolds; I think there are plenty of folks here who can vouch for that fact.

    And I'm not MrMoonPie, although his comments about Dios are completely accurate and on the mark.
    posted by Rothko at 1:37 PM on September 2, 2005


    dios: Which shows me that a lot of you didn't appreciate this to be a tragedy it in fact is.

    I'm speechless.

    *draws a breath*

    What kind of polarized universe do you live in? How is it not possible to be both completely outraged at the disgustingly, shambolicly inadequate response to a huge crisis and be worried sick about the victims, be appalled at the fate of so many people, AT THE SAME TIME? I have friends in New Orleans. I've not spent anywhere near as much time there as I wish I could have. I've been glued to the coverage all week. I've not posted about it in MeFi because I've been either sick to my stomach with worry for friends and the situation of the city, or near incandescent with rage at the falilure of planning, leadership and management evident as the response to this huge tragedy has unfolded. All I can do is send more money than I can strictly afford and hope the systems exist to help the people that need help.

    I know many people who worked or do work in various branches of federal government. Since 9/11, huge swathes of government funding and management have been restructured, re organised, rebudgeted, removed, created and generally manipulated in the name of Homeland Security. Many billions have been spent in the name of protecting the USA. This administration have made it the cornerstone of their strategy and policy. Katrina was the first big test of what we've all been sold. The response has been pitifully managed, the resources we've all been paying for woefully slow to materialize, the leadership, command and communication a mess. Just at the time we really, really need them and in circumstances we've all been told are exactly what we're supposed to have been planning and paying for. The system has failed us. You bet that's political.

    No-one's suggesting it's not good to see troops finally arriving. If the president wants to go on TV when it happens I couldn't care less. It's irrelevent, the damage is already done. Some of the people I've met and know from there could be dead. People have already died because help that should have got to them quicker didn't. I hope those that still need it get it quickly now.

    Enough from me. Here's a friend from New Orleans with some more:

    "We have heard from some friends, but many are still unaccounted for -
    few of us have cars or the resources to evacuate, so many of our
    friends were forced to stay. Needless to say, we are worried sick about
    them. This is true for a large percentage of New Orleans - there are
    many poor people there, and no real plans were made to get them out,
    though everyone has known for years that there would be large numbers
    of people unable to leave in an event such as this. There was no
    national guard left in LA to immediately respond to the situation as
    most of our national guard is currently in Iraq.

    As you have also most likely heard on the news, people there are still
    waiting for food and water. They are starting to starve and dehydrate.
    As I speak, the National Guard (that is being brought in from around
    the country) has the city surrounded and are not letting anyone in or
    out, except for the buses evacuating people. There are heaps of
    supplies waiting for the people of New Orleans in Baton Rouge, but
    people with supplies are not being allowed into the city, they are
    being turned away by the Guard. The excuse given is that until the
    looting and shooting in New Orleans is under control, it is not safe
    enough to allow anyone into the city. What we do not understand is that
    if the United States has planes capable of flying over Iraq and
    dropping bombs, they can not find a way to at least air-drop supplies
    into the city. Perhaps if the people in New Orleans had food and water,
    they would not be rioting. There is no well organized relief effort -
    we have spoken to a number of agencies as we are working on our own
    relief effort, and they do not know where supplies should go to, who
    has authority to allow people with supplies in, etc.

    We have managed to speak to a few people in New Orleans and they
    confirm this - they have not had food and water in several days, and
    more and more people are dying because of this. Now private homes are
    being looted because there is no food or water left in any of the
    stores. Charity Hospital - the free care hospital - is finally being
    evacuated, 3 days after the private hospitals were evacuated. Their
    generators blew a couple of days ago and everyone on life support is
    now dead. They have almost no medicine and no supplies.

    This is turning into a class war - the poor of New Orleans are paying
    the price. Almost no word is being said on the news about the lower 9th
    ward anymore - the area completely under water - because there are
    hundreds and hundreds of dead there. We have heard of bodies floating
    in the street by our house - and throughout the city.

    All this is absolutely devastating. Everyone in New Orleans knew that
    the 'big one' would come some day - but no one anticipated such a
    complete failure on the part of our government to bring us relief."
    posted by normy at 1:37 PM on September 2, 2005


    I find it really odd that some people cannot imagine a dual effort - caring about the people involved in this disaster AND being able to criticize how the disaster is handled. Why must we be of only one mind, one voice? Why is it "inappropriate" to discuss misgivings and anger at the situation on a goddamn MESSAGE BOARD??

    I shake my head in utter disbelief.
    posted by agregoli at 1:37 PM on September 2, 2005


    what mr.curmudgeon said.

    maybe you guys don't realize that this is bigger than just the horrors in New Orleans--when we are attacked again, we're actually seeing what the response would be. We're seeing that Homeland Security doesn't actually help people in the Homeland. People are starving, and dying--still.
    posted by amberglow at 1:38 PM on September 2, 2005


    ParisP-I think you might be confusing how you would like the Federal Govt to be with how it actually is. I've got more than an iota of knowledge about this, and I know that, more than ever since 9-11, relief efforts to major disasters in the US have been federalized. I think one thing that makes the anemic response to this tragedy so frustrating is that it's clear that while the Feds have been busy color-coding our risk, they've let the established systems degrade to the point that they don't work as well as they should.
    posted by OmieWise at 1:39 PM on September 2, 2005


    Forget Bush, it's just a convenient target like any other president in the history they were criticized or praised but most importantly they drawed attention away from the others, expecially house reps and senators and their cohorts.

    The things that make me mad is that good firemans, good policeman and military, even good citizens with no particular hierarchical organization probably did a lot and risked their lifes to save other people like me you and everybody else..but of course who's going to attemp taking the merit ? The politicians for not interfering and the big power concentration for graciously not profiting even more from the situation.
    posted by elpapacito at 1:39 PM on September 2, 2005


    How anyone can look at what has happened and worry about how it will be spinned is beyond me. People who do are the lowest form of slime.

    I'd rank them below the people spinning their repeated ineptitude into continued political survival, personally, but I'm a member of the Competency-based Community.
    posted by phearlez at 1:39 PM on September 2, 2005


    only a small minority of voters agrees with them

    Huh? By that you mean that they have lost by a small minority, right? I think you have your words mixed up, either that or you haven't been paying much attention to reality.
    posted by Pollomacho at 1:39 PM on September 2, 2005


    Basically what normy said.
    posted by agregoli at 1:39 PM on September 2, 2005


    Well as of today, a majority of Americans think that the federal government has not done enough to help in the Gulf Coast ... and a majority of Americans disapprove of President Bush's response to Hurricane Katrina.
    posted by ericb at 1:39 PM on September 2, 2005


    ParisParamus writes "Why is it the Left is still in denial over the fact that only a small minority of voters agrees with them?"

    You mean 49%? Man, I keep trying to treat you like you have a brain.
    posted by OmieWise at 1:41 PM on September 2, 2005


    The Hero of New Orleans -- General Russel L. Honore.
    posted by insomnia_lj at 1:42 PM on September 2, 2005


    You mean the excellence, don't you? Why is it the Left is still in denial over the fact that only a small minority of voters agrees with them? Similar comments were made before the 2002 elections, and the 2004 election. Get a new plan, man!

    If you really believe the American administration has has excelled in anything over the past five year then you are the most deluded individual I have ever come across on the web. Are you really George Bush?
    posted by twistedonion at 1:42 PM on September 2, 2005


    I'm not wasting any more time here.
    Convoy dios on the go.
    posted by thomcatspike at 1:43 PM on September 2, 2005


    OmieWise, I know Homeland Security may have taken over some duties, but FEMA still exists (under HS?), and the impetus for HS was/is terrorism.

    For context, consider the relief efforts that have been mounted for the hurricianes in Florida. Unless you subscribe to a rascist response theory, the big difference between FL and LA/MS is the local component (both in terms of government and the sea level thing).

    It just seems incredibly pre-mature, and Metafilter-predictable to be blaming President Bush and his administration.
    posted by ParisParamus at 1:45 PM on September 2, 2005


    BUSH: You know, as governor, one of the things you have to deal with is catastrophe. I can remember the fires that swept Parker County, Texas. I remember the floods that swept our state. I remember going down to Del Rio, Texas. I have to pay the administration a compliment. James Lee Witt of FEMA has done a really good job of working with governors during times of crisis. But that's the time when you're tested not only -- it's the time to test your metal, a time to test your heart when you see people whose lives have been turned upside down. It broke my heart to go to the flood scene in Del Rio where a fellow and his family got completely uprooted. The only thing I knew was to got aid as quickly as possible with state and federal help, and to put my arms around the man and his family and cry with them. That's what governors do. They are often on the front line of catastrophic situations.

    posted by funambulist at 1:46 PM on September 2, 2005


    "Why is it the Left is still in denial over the fact that only a small minority of voters agrees with them?"

    Your small minority isn't so small anymore... and it's going to get a lot bigger still, once all this plays out.

    Talk to the hand.
    posted by insomnia_lj at 1:46 PM on September 2, 2005


    Of the many excellent points made in normy's post of his friend's email, let me pull out one quote for those of you reading this thread who don't like big swaths of text containng silly stuff like information and facts:

    "There was no national guard left in LA to immediately respond to the situation as most of our national guard is currently in Iraq."

    'Nuff said?
    posted by scody at 1:46 PM on September 2, 2005


    impetus for HS was/is terrorism

    That is exactly the problem. It is an organization that is supposed to handle all aspects of Homeland Security, not just the extremely limited threat of terrorism.
    posted by Pollomacho at 1:47 PM on September 2, 2005


    "If you really believe the American administration has has excelled in anything over the past five year then you are the most d