Urban assault machines

September 27, 2005 3:56 PM

Who drives 4WDs (SUVs)?"In their attitudes, city drivers of large 4WDs are morally more conservative and less community orientated than other drivers. They are more likely to dislike homosexuals; among male drivers of 4WDs in the city, 51 per cent believe that homosexuality is immoral compared to 43 per cent of men overall. They also have lower regard for Indigenous culture and are less sympathetic to public and charitable support for disadvantaged people." [.pdf link]
posted by wilful (131 comments total)

Sadly, I've just discovered that FlipOffAHummer.com seems to be out of service.
posted by VulcanMike at 3:59 PM on September 27, 2005

This is why I drive a Lexus...I don't give a crap about anyone, gay, straight, black, white, yellow, purple...
posted by Postroad at 4:01 PM on September 27, 2005

When you drive a Hummer, everything looks like a road bump.
posted by Rothko at 4:01 PM on September 27, 2005

So, idiots basically. As suspected.
posted by Artw at 4:02 PM on September 27, 2005

43 percent of men overall belive WHAT now?!
posted by shmegegge at 4:02 PM on September 27, 2005

Percentage of tailgating SUV drivers that get hit by my cunningly aimed windshield washer fluid nozzles: 100.
posted by Mach5 at 4:03 PM on September 27, 2005

In another, yet to be published survey, 100% of all Hummer owners remarked that they couldn't give a shit.
posted by billysumday at 4:06 PM on September 27, 2005

Clair Barbato is a bacterial boar.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:06 PM on September 27, 2005

Make that "Claire Barbato"
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:07 PM on September 27, 2005

I want to drive a 4x4. I want my VW Polo to have an Audi TT 225bhp 1.8T engine and the quattro 4 wheel drive system put into my '97 Polo.

And then find some lights.

And Prius drivers, all be quiet. Your worse than the X5, ML, Landcruiser, Shogan, Patrol, Hummer drivers.
posted by 13twelve at 4:09 PM on September 27, 2005

There really is something in this. I rode to work in the DC area for about a year and had to cross one road with a pedestrian crossing. People would stop at their discretion. Almost everyone would stop, trucks, sports cars, mini-vans, small cars, large cars, old people, young people, men, women. There was just one rule. SUVs would never stop. The difference was quite marked.


The article is also available in HTML, although registration may be required.
posted by sien at 4:10 PM on September 27, 2005

Wonder what percentage of those assholes think it's acceptable to drive and use a cellphone at the same time.
The last three people to almost hit me have been SUV drivers on cellphones.
posted by Lusy P Hur at 4:12 PM on September 27, 2005

People look like such idiots in their Hummers. Most people laugh at them, yet they blithely seem to think they are on the top of the world for driving such a beast of a machine. Get a clue, almost no one's jealous of you. You don't look cool; you look like a dork. Driving a Hummer is sort of like wearing a pocket protector.
posted by caddis at 4:12 PM on September 27, 2005

Luckily, FUH2.com is still up and running and still hating on asshats who need a 4 ton station wagon.

Also, it should be noted that this report is centered in Australia and not the US, not that the results would differ too markedly I'd imagine but sample populations are important to note.

I ride a motorcycle, I don't care what color you are, just don't cut me off and lane change like a monkey on crack.
posted by fenriq at 4:13 PM on September 27, 2005

Not surprised. The people most likey to tailgate me or try and pass me on the right (often when I'm going 5-10 miles above the posted speed limit anyway) are SUV and big truck types. I just laugh it off. My motorcycle gets 40+MPG.
posted by black8 at 4:16 PM on September 27, 2005

Though I don't own an SUV my business has considered leasing one because of the tax write-off that you can't get with a smaller vehicle. It makes financial sense - even with gas prices high. But I can't do it because of the "asshole" factor associated with the breed. Damn it.
posted by tkchrist at 4:17 PM on September 27, 2005

"The last three people to almost hit me have been SUV drivers on cellphones."

*hits Lusy P Hur*

There, broke the chain for ya.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:17 PM on September 27, 2005

99.99% of men who drive Hummers have small (really small) penises.
posted by ericb at 4:19 PM on September 27, 2005

I think this has been linked to somwhere here before, but this is a good place to repeat it, from a Malcolm Gladwell article in the 12 Jan. 2004 New Yorker:

"...internal industry market research concluded that S.U.V.s tend to be bought by people who are insecure, vain, self-centered, and self-absorbed, who are frequently nervous about their marriages, and who lack confidence in their driving skills."
posted by marxchivist at 4:25 PM on September 27, 2005

I have driven small compact cars all throughout my car ownership life. My last car however was a 1994 Isuzu Trooper. Not exactly an SUV, but not exactly a subcompact either. I can see where the allure of being above everyone else comes from, but the vast majority out there who drive such vehicles are a few bricks shy of an attention full load.
I think my next vehicle will be a 4X4 as well, just because I like to get out into the woods and with the disabilities I have now that's not as easy as it used to be. I've been thinking of a used Toyota 4Runner with a 4 cylinder engine, that way I don't have to feel *too* guilty. . .
I've also been thinking of changing my primary mode of transportation over to a scooter or motorcycle and using the 4Runner for getting groceries or whatever I couldn't use the scooter for.
posted by mk1gti at 4:32 PM on September 27, 2005

What car would Jesus drive?
posted by cleardawn at 4:32 PM on September 27, 2005

Obviously an SUV with all those apostles.
posted by guruguy9 at 4:36 PM on September 27, 2005

99.99% of men who drive Hummers have small (really small) penises.

That is a very hackneyed phrase, but let me just state for the record that I drive a relatively small car. Like Marxchivist said, this is more about self confidence. [This is not to demean a 4WD owner who actually uses that feature - we are talking here about the boobs who have to buy the biggest vehicle they can get to prop up their failing egos or to protect themselves with the biggest vehicle so that the other guy dies in an accident - i.e the selfish loser types.]
posted by caddis at 4:37 PM on September 27, 2005

Oh, I thought you said hacked penis.
posted by ericb at 4:43 PM on September 27, 2005

Also, approximately 90% of the St. Louis asshats who drive 10mph over the speed limit with their lights off when heavy rain has reduced visibility to 20 feet, are in SUVs.
posted by Foosnark at 4:46 PM on September 27, 2005

So why do we care what kind of cars people drive again?
posted by b_thinky at 4:46 PM on September 27, 2005

SUVs are teh ghey.
posted by clevershark at 4:46 PM on September 27, 2005

"What car would Jesus drive?"

A Plymouth, of course.

"Jeremiah 32:37 - Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury"
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:49 PM on September 27, 2005

A Hummer driver was responsible for the last accident I was in. I was using my cameraphone to take a picture of myself flipping him off and in so doing I had to take both hands off the wheel. Bastard.
posted by George_Spiggott at 4:50 PM on September 27, 2005

that was way to fast...

"What car would Jesus drive?"

A Plymouth, of course.

"Jeremiah 32:37 - Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury"
posted by mr_crash_davis

Dead brilliant.
posted by drinkmaildave at 4:58 PM on September 27, 2005

Postroad - I'm so hurt, fulfilling 4/6ths of criteria..

I have a friend who drives a raised Expedition. Some woman in a Volvo cut him off - the volvo was a writeoff, he had to touch up his bumper. Scary.

He's a caring, non-homophobic, social-libertarian - just entered his growth spurt really really late.
posted by PurplePorpoise at 4:59 PM on September 27, 2005

So why do we care what kind of cars people drive again?

Is that a serious question, or a rhetorical one? If serious, I wonder whether you use public roads? The behaviour of other road users is fairly fundamentally important to your own safety, and that includes their purchasing behaviour. Large 4WDs are no safer for for the occupant and significantly less safe for the other vehicle or pedestrian in an accident. Combine that with poor behaviour through selfish and aggressive driving, and yes it matters quite a lot. And I haven't even started on the ecological arguments, where large 4WD users are effectively subsidised by all of us and by the future.
posted by wilful at 5:03 PM on September 27, 2005

What kind of car would Jesus drive?
posted by George_Spiggott at 5:05 PM on September 27, 2005

"Jeremiah 32:37 - Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury"

(Laughing) mr_crash_davis...you, sir, are the fucking king of comedy!
posted by runningdogofcapitalism at 5:06 PM on September 27, 2005

Personally, I drive an eighteen-wheel articulated fuel tanker.

Although it is sometimes hard to find a parking space, you're up higher than other drivers, and nobody gives me problems when I'm dropping the kids off at school.

The relatively high gas consumption is offset by the profits I make buying gas at thousand-gallon bulk discount prices and selling to my friends and neighbors over the next few months.

I am concerned, however, by the recent growth trend in Bradley fighting vehicles on our roads. Somebody should regulate this before it gets out of hand.
posted by cleardawn at 5:12 PM on September 27, 2005

I actually enjoy seeing people with ridiculously large vehicles.. I enjoy seeing them at the gas pumps with that pained look that inevitably means "shit, looks like I'm gonna be having cat food for dinner again tonight..."
posted by clevershark at 5:13 PM on September 27, 2005

So, when I yell "Asshole" out the window it turns out I'm right.
posted by eperker at 5:31 PM on September 27, 2005

Of course, the Hummer is completely emasculated by this.
posted by caddis at 5:35 PM on September 27, 2005

Of course, the Hummer is completely emasculated by this.

That is the best thing that has ever been created forever.
posted by eddydamascene at 5:41 PM on September 27, 2005

Christ may have been in a Plymouth but His friends bought a Honda.

Acts 2:1 "...and the followers of Jesus were together in one Accord"
posted by shockingbluamp at 5:53 PM on September 27, 2005

cleardawn
I am interested in obtaining a Bradley Fighting Vehicle of my own, I think it would be lots of fun on Football night with my local 'republican friends'. Would you know where I could purchase one in my neighborhood? What's the mileage like on those things? How much do the bullets cost? And of course, what's the warranty?
posted by mk1gti at 6:01 PM on September 27, 2005

99.99% of men who drive Hummers have small (really small) penises.

I don't own or drive a car. Therefore my penis is infinite.

and mr_crash_davis is the funniest human being ever.

but I repeat:

43% of men overall believe WHAT now?!
posted by shmegegge at 6:03 PM on September 27, 2005

SUVs: betwen 10 to 15 mpg, 2 soldiers a day -- not bad.
posted by NewBornHippy at 6:03 PM on September 27, 2005

This is my next car! It goes from zero to 60 in 4.3 seconds and it is a hybrid!

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/25/magazine/25hybrids.html?ex=1285300800&en=0621d4fb90f70f90&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

or< if you can't fit that:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/25/magazine/25hybrids.html and access with "legion" and "legion"
posted by Postroad at 6:10 PM on September 27, 2005

Actually hybrids are only worth the extra cost if you do almost all your driving in city conditions. At highway speeds hybrid vehicles use their (underpowered) gas engines and don't really provide the "bang for the buck" that hybrid owners expect.
posted by clevershark at 6:28 PM on September 27, 2005

True story: While riding with my wife's friend and her husband in their Ford Expedition — along the perpetually congested Interstate 205 connector near Tracy, CA — the friend was attempting to switch lanes with very little room to spare when her husband said, "Just get over honey. We're in an SUV, they'll move."

And my blood pressure skyrocketed when she answered her cell phone while driving the beast.
posted by DakotaPaul at 6:33 PM on September 27, 2005

Also check the link for what it says about luxury SUVs (BMW X5 s etc)

Well over half (57 per cent) of all Australians agree it is the government’s duty to support those who can’t find work, but only 44 per cent of city owners of luxury 4WDs agree, a figure comparable to their large 4WD counterparts (42 per cent). Luxury 4WD owners go against the trend as to whether the gap between rich and poor is growing. While a large majority (88 per cent) of the general population believe it is so (including 86 per cent of large 4WD owners in the city), only 66 per cent of this predominantly wealthier group believe the gap is widening.
Where owners of large 4WDs prefer beer (Australian rather than imported), city drivers of luxury 4WDs prefer wine and spirits. Nearly half (46 per cent) of this group say they like to drink wine with their meals compared to only 28 per cent of the general population.
posted by wilful at 6:37 PM on September 27, 2005

mr_crash_davis wins.

And with his winnings, he needs to buy me a new keyboard.
posted by zoogleplex at 6:56 PM on September 27, 2005

In the winter I dred seeing drivers in large SUVs without winter tires driving around like they have nothing to worry about because they think the all-wheel-drive capability makes their vehicle safe in slippery conditions. Any car with winter tires is going to stop and handle better than an SUV without winter tires.
posted by disgruntled at 7:12 PM on September 27, 2005

I enjoy knowing you will die in a crash with me and one of my 2 large 4x4 vehicles. I give not a shit for you and yours, I am protecting mine. Now go cry somewhere.



mr_crash_davis wins nothing for using the oldest Mopar joke in the book...
posted by mrblondemang at 7:20 PM on September 27, 2005

I enjoy knowing you will die in a crash with me and one of my 2 large 4x4 vehicles.

That attitude will get you into Heaven, for sure.
posted by caddis at 7:29 PM on September 27, 2005

I have nothing nice to say to urban SUV owners. So, I will say nothing at all. (Thanks, Grandma.)

OK, wait -- one thing. If you need an SUV because "Ooo I have kids and they don't fit in a regular car" then your kids need to go on an F'ing diet. If they have Giantism, then fine, fine -- do what you have to do.

(Damn, sorry Grandma.)
posted by Kloryne at 8:22 PM on September 27, 2005

And Caddis, you jackball -- an old joke can still be a funny joke.
posted by Kloryne at 8:25 PM on September 27, 2005

mrblondemang writes "I enjoy knowing you will die in a crash with me and one of my 2 large 4x4 vehicles. I give not a shit for you and yours, I am protecting mine. Now go cry somewhere."

That's OK. We'll enjoy seeing your flipped-over overpriced tin can on fire on the side of the road because you felt like taking that 35mph-rated curve at 37mph... we'd probably roast marshmallows, if the gasoline-and-plastic smoke weren't toxic.
posted by clevershark at 8:40 PM on September 27, 2005

If you need an SUV because "Ooo I have kids and they don't fit in a regular car"
------------------------------

Uhhhhhh, *station wagon* remember those things? I'm sure you can find them used somewhere. . . Sheeessshhhh. . .

Seriously, if you live in Alaska, *away* from Anchorage I can see getting some kind of 4X4. But logic seems that you would want something *small* to get in and out of tight places. Hummers and other SUV's are about the stupidest thing out there to go 4 wheeling in because they're so godamn big they can't get out of their own way! Logic and reason has clearly eluded the 'murican public in their choice of commuter vehicles. I think that increasing gas prices may help to pull them away from the pumps and clear their heads of the gas fumes. But I doubt it. . . Perhaps when I see SUV scooters out there I'll believe they've come around.
posted by mk1gti at 8:50 PM on September 27, 2005

I have a '99 Chevy Blazer (S-10 size, not full-size).

I'm very liberal. You can be as gay as you want -- it ain't a sin. Take love where you can find it. I think charity is one of the highest virtues -- it is a job of our government, too. I don't think less of Amerindians in any way.

I actually do use the 4 wheel drive, even though I live in Denver. It is also not uncommon to have the thing full of gear out in the Rockies somewhere. In February. At 11,000 ft.

I guess I'm against stereotype. I never have been one of the cool kids. I get the best gas mileage on the bus or my bicycle, both of which my wife and I ride frequently. Our SUV is our only car. I want a Mini but I can't afford one.
posted by teece at 9:20 PM on September 27, 2005

I much prefer blistering acceleration and extreme maneuverability to massive armor anyday. Thus my motorcycle. If you want to hit me, mrblondemang, you're gonna have to catch me first. :)

I guess my attitude does kind of mesh with the Gladwell article re large SUV drivers "who lack confidence in their driving skills." Motorcyclists by definition need to have confidence in their skills, or they shouldn't be in the saddle.

I really wish the cops would start enforcing the "No trucks over 6000lbs GVWR" laws on urban and suburban streets. That would exclude Hummers, Excursions, etc. A lot of SUV owners aren't actually legally able to drive their trucks on their own street.

teece, living where you live, you have a good case for owning a good size 4WD, so fear not. It's the H2 drivers in notoriously snowy, gravelly, mountainous Santa Monica CA that are a problem.
posted by zoogleplex at 9:23 PM on September 27, 2005

Perhaps I'm pursuing the best course: SUV/4X4 for local errands/car camping/off roading up in the mooouuunnntttaaaiiins/ and scooter/motorcycle for everything else.
posted by mk1gti at 10:13 PM on September 27, 2005

I've brought this up before....
posted by Jon-o at 10:16 PM on September 27, 2005

If you want capacity and safety. Get a minivan.

Seriously, the construction of many SUV's scare me because all you really have is a pickup truck with tricked out fenders. Part of the economic incentive for SUVs is that as small trucks, they get a free pass from many safety regulations.

The totaled Volvo to me strikes me as being a better indication of safety than something that comes through with only cosmetic scratches. Contemporary safety design for cars involves structures that crush, crumple and break rather than pass kenetic energy to the occupants.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:34 PM on September 27, 2005

If you want safety, the best thing to do is learn to drive defensively and learn how your car handles. You are the biggest variable you have control over, and the impact of that can dwarf all other factors easily.

Beyond that, you just have to learn to accept risk, and do what you can to mitigate it. Driving is the most dangerous thing most Americans will ever do. No car is going to change that.
posted by teece at 10:44 PM on September 27, 2005

If you want capacity and safety. Get a minivan.

Indeed.

I enjoy knowing you will die in a crash with me and one of my 2 large 4x4 vehicles. I give not a shit for you and yours, I am protecting mine. Now go cry somewhere.

Perhaps those who hold this sentiment missed the safety-rating portion of the Gladwell article.
posted by weston at 10:45 PM on September 27, 2005

I have two 4x4s. A ten year old 4Runner which I use on the farm and a Honda Pilot which my wife uses. Up here it snows a LOT. I don't regret either of them. And I am the opposite of your stereotypes. The next time you have to plough through 3-foot snowdrifts to get to your house you might find a 4x4 quite useful.
posted by unSane at 10:48 PM on September 27, 2005

mrblondemang: I give not a shit for you and yours, I am protecting mine. Now go cry somewhere.

What maneuvers make SUVs roll over? More to the point, does anyone know a driving tactic that someone not driving an SUV could use in traffic to make an SUV roll over?
posted by pracowity at 11:02 PM on September 27, 2005

Those who makesome fairly obvious and uncontested claims about when and where they particularly need a 4WD for their circumstances really need to RTFA.
posted by wilful at 11:19 PM on September 27, 2005

Those who makesome fairly obvious and uncontested claims about when and where they particularly need a 4WD for their circumstances really need to RTFA.

Right. Because every month when the latest SUV-bashing thread pops up, everyone that tells me I am evil, Republican, a bad driver, a menace, wanting to kill, wasteful of gas, etc., always adds that foot note saying: of course, if you need an SUV ...

Sorry, in all but a very few instances on these threads, I am vilified on MeFi because I drive an SUV. On the one hand, it's totally stupid that I need to defend my vehicle choice to any of you. But on the other, I kind of don't like being called something I'm not.

One example: even if my SUV never left the city (which it does), it gets about 1/3 to 1/4 of the milage per year of the average car. I do not get 1/3 to 1/4 the gas mileage of most cars. So I'm not using more gas than most people.

I guess that's the thing about stereotypes...
posted by teece at 12:00 AM on September 28, 2005

Meh. Don't worry about it teece. I own an SUV. And I live in urban san francisco. I actually commute to work everyday on Caltrain and only decided on an SUV because when I do need a car its to, well, carry stuff. Mostly, its just parked. I use Muni and taxis to get around the city because I hate looking for parking.

What is really funny is that the previous owner used it in the same way I do. And she was one of the heads of an environmental energy organization(!) Anyways, she got enough shit from stupid people who refuse to allow that stereotypes have exceptions - that she sold it to me and now drives a diesel which she pumps bio-fuel into. We're friends actually and she misses her SUV and borrows it once in a while...
posted by vacapinta at 12:54 AM on September 28, 2005

I see. So it turns out that selfish, blinkered wankers are selfish and blinkered.
posted by bouncebounce at 3:10 AM on September 28, 2005

pracowity asks: What maneuvers make SUVs roll over? More to the point, does anyone know a driving tactic that someone not driving an SUV could use in traffic to make an SUV roll over?

SUV drivers make SUVs roll over. Your best bet would be to make the driver panic and fuck up. So go buy a nice heavy sports car and some high performance tires. I recommend the Mitsubishi 3000GT and Bridgestone S-03s. It's probably wise to also get a roll cage, a racing harness, and a helmet.

Then learn how to drive. Metafilter's favorite security firm, Blackwater USA, has a driver training program.

Imagine:

Crusing along the interstate, you spot the enemy. A mustard yellow Hummer H2. You approach on his left, two lanes over. Matching speed, you glance at the driver. He's talking on a cell phone, completely oblivious to your approach. Perfect. You yank the wheel hard right and dash across two lanes, aiming for his front fender. He drops the phone and swerves violently in a useless attempt to avoid a collision. But he turns too far! The SUV rolls over and cartwheels into a concrete abutment.

Miraculously, the driver is not killed. In fact, he is still conscious, cushioned by his vehicle's numerous airbags. He struggles furiously to escape his crumpled vehicle. Blinded by adrenaline, he doesn't even notice his legs are broken. As he fights to release his seatbelt, he glimpses an orange flicker in his rear view mirror. His rage gives way to terror and he freezes. Paralyzed, he watches as the sooty flames quickly engulf his vehicle. The fire pours through the broken driver-side window and swirls over his body. He tries to shield his face with his hands, but it is useless. He screams as his skin blisters and peels, but the gasoline inferno is relentless. Writhing in pain, he shrieks as the fire consumes him. Finally he is still. Beneath his seat, his cell phone weeps.
posted by ryanrs at 3:11 AM on September 28, 2005

My 01 4-Runner is the nicest vehicle I've ever owned. Everyone that's ever ridden in it comments on how much they like it and at 19.4 mpg, I doubt it's much thirstier than the more politically correct Volvo wagon.
I grew up in Maine where it seemed like everybody had a Jimmy, Blazer on Bronco so there was never a stigma attached to 4WD ownership.
posted by reidfleming at 5:30 AM on September 28, 2005

My girlfriend and I were once caught in a snowstorm in Boston and had to get home a few miles away, mass transit had completely shut down by that point in the night. I resolved to beg passing motorists to give us a ride, perhaps for a few bucks. She wasn't convinced I could find someone, but I was.

All the SUV's passed and a few literally laughed at my plight, even though they had better vehicles for the weather. Meanwhile, a young nice guy in a beat-up old 2WD finally offered us a ride.
posted by Lectrick at 5:38 AM on September 28, 2005

"...internal industry market research concluded that S.U.V.s tend to be bought by people who are insecure, vain, self-centered, and self-absorbed, who are frequently nervous about their marriages, and who lack confidence in their driving skills."

Snort. They damn sure didn't ask me. I'm not self-absorbed, though I readily admit to having an ego the size of Jupiter. I'm also poly (which means definitely not nervous about my marriage, thanks.) AND I think I'm a damn good driver. Have to be, since my 81 Bronco 4WD is bigger than just about everything on the road. I was next to an Escalade at a red light the other day, and noticed that my beat up old Bronco is bigger by a few inches. Both of them get lousy gas mileage, but my insurance is a whole lot cheaper than his and I paid as much for my truck in total as he pays every month.. ($500 cash).


Teece, FWIW I miss my Blazer. But I do like my Bronco.
posted by keptwench at 6:13 AM on September 28, 2005

mrblondemang: I give not a shit for you and yours, I am protecting mine. Now go cry somewhere.

Then you are a danger to us and ours, and should be removed from our ethosphere as soon as feasible.

You do actually understand the concept of "society", don't you? How about "community", then? Mutual trust? Karma? "Do unto others"? "Reap what you sow"? "The log in thine own eye"? No? OK, removal it is, then....
posted by lodurr at 7:16 AM on September 28, 2005

43 percent of men overall belive WHAT now?!
That's EXACTLY what I thought when I read the post... What. The. Hell.
posted by eurasian at 7:21 AM on September 28, 2005

I have a two seater sports car, and invariably every fucker who tailgates me is either a fat bald idiot in a Excursion or Christy taking Zoe to ballet in a fucking Escalade.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 7:36 AM on September 28, 2005

Non-SUV drivers are 82% more likely to participate in sanctimonious circle-jerks on internet forums and speculate on vehicle size to penis size ratios, even though their own don't get used much.
I don't drive one, but many of the nicest, friendliest, most helpful and most skilled drivers I know do.
But, please, continue with the bashing...
posted by rocket88 at 7:40 AM on September 28, 2005

SUV drivers are obsessed with sexual performance, self-image, job satisfaction, political party support, and the success of their offspring. I base this on the various bumper stickers I have seen on the SUVs around the town where I live. Also, I believe that gold trim only serves to further identify the driver as someone who holds personal image in high regard over anything else...like conscientious fuel rationing and ecologically sound living.

(Go ahead and ignore me...I have been helping truckers and railroad workers try to find places to sleep all night at work and I am now 2 shots of Jack Daniel's, 1 shot of Everclear, and 2 glasses of White Zinfandel in to my morning.)
posted by deusdiabolus at 8:00 AM on September 28, 2005

SUV drivers are obsessed with sexual performance, self-image, job satisfaction, political party support, and the success of their offspring. I base this on the various bumper stickers I have seen on the SUVs around the town where I live. Also, I believe that gold trim only serves to further identify the driver as someone who holds personal image in high regard over anything else...like conscientious fuel rationing and ecologically sound living.

(Go ahead and ignore me...I have been helping truckers and railroad workers try to find places to sleep all night at work and I am now 2 shots of Jack Daniel's, 1 shot of Everclear, and 2 glasses of White Zinfandel in to my morning.)
posted by deusdiabolus at 8:02 AM on September 28, 2005

BTW, the reason why that came up twice has to do with Opera freezing when I clicked POST the first time, not the fact that I am well on my way to being comfortably numb. I have switched back over to Maxthon so that that will not happen again.
posted by deusdiabolus at 8:05 AM on September 28, 2005

I'm a Democrat and I drive a Chevy Trailblazer. It drinks a bit more gas than my previous vehicle, a Mercury Cougar, but in trade off I can haul a heck of a lot more stuff, get an excellent elevated view of the road conditions (which allow me to avoid and navigate around idiots in SUVs and Non-SUVs), and have in reserve the ability to traverse conditions which simply are not an option in a standard car. If I need to drive through a pasture (done), I can do so without fear that my undercarriage is going to snag on something and leave a pool of oil behind.

The only real point is that SUVs do not in the end really make the driver, the driver makes the driver. If Mini Coopers were the most popular vehicle on the road, people would be railing against Mini Coopers. In general, people suck at driving, and its only because SUVs are a majority presence on the road that anger is focused upon them. In my driving experience, I see people in pick-ups and sedans being just as stupid and just as annoyingly irritating as drivers in other vehicles.

So in conclusion, DIE EARTH DIE.
posted by Atreides at 9:08 AM on September 28, 2005

If Mini Coopers were the most popular vehicle on the road, people would be railing against Mini Coopers.

Nah. I might say something about the idiots in the Minis -- about there being too many of them, perhaps, and not enough people using public transport -- but I wouldn't be able to fault the car as a car, not compared to most of the alternatives on the road. But SUVs and similarly oversized or overpowered (or both) vehicles are a problem regardless of who's driving them.
posted by pracowity at 9:36 AM on September 28, 2005

Non-SUV drivers are 82% more likely to participate in sanctimonious circle-jerks on internet forums and speculate on vehicle size to penis size ratios, even though their own don't get used much.
I don't drive one, but many of the nicest, friendliest, most helpful and most skilled drivers I know do.
But, please, continue with the bashing...

Well said.

I drive an SUV. I have a large penis and an above-average IQ. I make a lot of money too, so going to the pump is really just an afterthought. I've never caused an accident - never even really come close. And while I'm certainly not proud of the mileage my car gets, I'm not about to trade it in.

Last year, while stopped at a traffic light, someone driving a compact brutally crashed into me doing 40 MPH without even touching her brakes (according to witnesses). She was broke, uninsured, and driving on a suspended license from a drunk-driving offense. The back-end of my SUV was crumpled and the impact sent me halfway out into the intersection despite my foot never coming off the brake, but I was fine.

In other words, driving an SUV quite probably saved me from serious injury. And, to lift a phrase from another MeFite's post, why exactly should I give a shit about what you think I drive anyway?

And this woman that hit me is the only person I know personally who drives a compact car. So, in my opinion, compact car drivers are broke, uninsured, criminals who are a danger to everyone on the road. But hey, their environmental footprint is smaller.

Wow, that felt great. That was fun. Stereotyping is fun. Let's do this again soon. Best of the web.
posted by 27 at 9:48 AM on September 28, 2005

And this woman that hit me is the only person I know personally who drives a compact car. So, in my opinion, compact car drivers are broke, uninsured, criminals who are a danger to everyone on the road. But hey, their environmental footprint is smaller.

Wow, that felt great. That was fun. Stereotyping is fun.

You do grasp the difference between stereotyping based on a token (the only compact-driver you know) versus performing a survey of a large number of drivers? Just checking. Cuz, you know, it's hard to tell if you're being sarcastic or just really casual about your logic.
posted by lodurr at 10:38 AM on September 28, 2005

Yes, I'm well aware. Everyone else is well aware of that too, right? Because we've seen a lot of crap claims made on one person's personal observation. I guess I was just trying (somewhat sarcastically) to balance the argument by throwing my blanket statement based on limited input into the mix.

"lower regard for Indigenous culture"?!

I mean, give me a fucking break. Yeah, that's what SUV owners are. First we piss on the closest indigenous person we can find, then we jump in our SUV's and try to run MeFite's off the road. At the end of the day, we meet at the Community Hate Center and talk about how we hate gays more than the "good people" that drive sedans too slow for our taste.

This is a bullshit post on a bullshit topic (trying to tie personality, compassion, acceptance, etc. to vehicle choice). What's next, a study about the proportion of log cabin owners who have fucked a goat?

Could it just be that SUV owners like the look, feel, ride, sense of safety, comfort, space, features, and value that they get from their vehicles?

No, it's that they're gay-hating, isolationist, indigeneous people-hating pricks who tailgate everybody and notch the dashboard every time they run a Prius off a cliff. Yeah, that's it. Demonize, demonize, demonize.

If SUV-owners wasn't a group that MeFi has collectively decided doesn't belong to the club, this post would've been Meta'd at the least and possibly deleted for being patently ridiculous.
posted by 27 at 10:58 AM on September 28, 2005

Could it just be that SUV owners like the look, feel, ride, sense of safety, comfort, space, features, and value that they get from their vehicles?

1. I like how you carefully qualified safety.

2. Could it be that SUV owners put all those things above the safety of others and concern for everyone's environment?

3. The look?
posted by pracowity at 11:19 AM on September 28, 2005

I didn't mean to qualify safety - read my earlier post. Which one of you environmentally-conscious, anti-SUV Mefites were going to come visit me in the hospital or pay my bills while I was out of work? I wouldn't have been holding my breath...

And regardless of whether it's a "sense" or a reality, who are you to say that someone who wants it and can afford it can't or shouldn't have it?

Just about everyone does something that benefits themselves individually over the community/environment as a whole. Do you buy products from a large-scale polluter, thereby financially supporting their smoke stacks or toxic run-off? Probably - and that's a bigger problem. Go fucking haunt them and leave SUV owners alone.

You're thinking small-time, and you're edified because you think it makes you better somehow. Get over it. They're legal. People want them and will continue to buy them. Don't like it? Don't drive it. But saying "fuck you" to somebody driving an SUV is going to get you nothing but a "fuck you" in return.

Like most of the "outrage" expressed on MeFi, this is another thing that manifests itself in a hollow gesture. Start a website, flip an SUV owner off. Yeah, that'll accomplish something. You're making the world a better place one middle finger at a time. Viva la revolucion!
posted by 27 at 11:36 AM on September 28, 2005

The back-end of my SUV was crumpled and the impact sent me halfway out into the intersection despite my foot never coming off the brake, but I was fine.

That's hardly unique to SUVs. I've seen pictures of my make/model of car with a completely crushed rear end and utterly undamaged passenger compartment. Plus it gets 34mpg.

Some large SUVs do have better *side* impact ratings than small cars; on the other hand, small cars are far less likely to roll, and far less likely to kill you when they do it.
posted by Foosnark at 12:21 PM on September 28, 2005

Well, that definitely adds evidence about SUV owners. Thanks, 27! You're a gift.

I should add my disclaimer that along with my motorcycle, I own a 60's muscle car that's loud, unsafe, has no emissions controls whatsoever, and gets about 12mpg on a good day. But I only put about 2000 miles a year on it, if that. Even so, I certainly don't "NEED" this car, and it's got many of the same things wrong with it that SUVs do. I own it because I really wanted one and I like it a lot.

However, I don't drive it like a jerk.

(unless some punkass in a 5.0 Mustang thinks he's got game - but only if the road is clear)
posted by zoogleplex at 12:21 PM on September 28, 2005

The study itself is flawed. It compares SUV owners with the general population, instead of other vehicle owners. To be even more accurate, it should compare SUV owners with owners of similarly priced vehicles, to eliminate income-based data trends.
Of course, like most studies of this type, the conclusion came first, and the data was manipulated to conform to it.
The danger in all this is that it fuels the misguided notions we see in this thread, and justifies idiots who want to deface and damage SUVs - or worse- run them off the road, as was suggested upthread.
posted by rocket88 at 12:25 PM on September 28, 2005

That's hardly unique to SUVs. I've seen pictures of my make/model of car with a completely crushed rear end and utterly undamaged passenger compartment. Plus it gets 34mpg.

That would be a good point, if you had information about the type of crash that crumpled your type of car. I've seen pictures of SUVs that look like crushed beer cans, but without any information on how it got that way the picture alone doesn't tell much of a story (was it hit by a 'Le Car' or a freight train?). According to the emergency responders in my accident, I was "very lucky" to be completely unharmed. Now, I know they don't know as much as the experts on this panel, but I'm just saying...

Well, that definitely adds evidence about SUV owners. Thanks, 27! You're a gift.
Evidence? Or just more baseless opinion? Oh, that's right - I've made two posts on this topic. You know me now. Thanks for the disclaimer though. No emissions controls at all? Even I have that beat.

I figured there might've been a few hypocrites masquerading as crusaders in this thread.
posted by 27 at 12:32 PM on September 28, 2005

"What car would Jesus drive?"

Jesus and his disciples traveled together in one Accord.
posted by jennanemone at 1:07 PM on September 28, 2005

I don't see what's so inflammatory about saying the following things:

1. SUVs use more gas on average than regular cars.

2. The bulk and low maneuverability of SUVs makes them dangerous to have on the road, for everybody.

3. This study shows a significant correlation of being a dick and owning an SUV - not a causation, but maybe you should look in the mirror.

Everything else is just opinion, but these are demonstrable facts.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 1:23 PM on September 28, 2005

27: Start a website, flip an SUV owner off. Yeah, that'll accomplish something. You're making the world a better place one middle finger at a time.

Collectively, things such as protest web sites and other expressions of opinion actually do work for the common good. The point is to shame people out of doing bad things. There will always be a few who are unashamed to think only of themselves and only for the moment, to hell with the world and to hell with the future, but others will come around. Social pressure not to drive SUVs probably won't make many people sell their SUVs, but many will think twice the next time they're looking for a car and wondering how the purchase might affect how other people think of them.

If social pressure reduces sales of harmful items even just one or two percent and helps sales of better items a corresponding amount, the effort is worthwhile, not a "hollow gesture."
posted by pracowity at 1:28 PM on September 28, 2005

1. OK.

2. Maybe. But I'm not buying my vehicle for "everybody". No more than I bought/built my house for "everybody" or any number of personal choice that really aren't any of "everbody's" business.

3. Are you kidding me? Assuming that you want to believe this study to begin with (and most here do, because it's telling them what they *knew* all along, so no need to look at it critically) isn't whether someone is or isn't "being a dick" is a matter of opinion by itself?

Anyway, Rocket88 said it better and more succinctly than I have. I think if someone dug up a study from somewhere that said "Prius drivers are pussies", the outcry here would be immense, but that's never here nor there, I guess. SUV owners are assholes, and they are because a study measuring things that I'm not even sure can be measured says they are. Bonus points for it validating a stereotype held by many in this forum.
posted by 27 at 1:39 PM on September 28, 2005

The point is to shame people out of doing bad things.
The website, maybe...although one might question how many SUV owners are checking those sites out to see who hates them today. Flipping people off is not a shaming act, it's an aggressive act. And even at that, it's probably misunderstood more often than not.


If social pressure reduces sales of harmful items even just one or two percent and helps sales of better items a corresponding amount, the effort is worthwhile, not a "hollow gesture."
No it doesn't. Not in this case. This is just my opinion, but I think eliminating 1 or 2 percent of the lowest hanging fruit in a global pollution problem really won't make any difference at all. What it does is make people who are really doing nothing feel like they're really doing something. Flipping an SUV driver off on your way home tonight won't make you an activist, it'll just get you flipped off in return.
posted by 27 at 1:46 PM on September 28, 2005

ryanrs writes "It's probably wise to also get a roll cage, a racing harness, and a helmet."

While noting that almost all harness are not street legal. Make sure you keep your regular factory belt fastened at all times.

pracowity writes "3. The look?"

Believe it or not some people value the look of their autos just like other people value the look of their clothes/grass/house.
posted by Mitheral at 2:47 PM on September 28, 2005

27: I think eliminating 1 or 2 percent of the lowest hanging fruit in a global pollution problem really won't make any difference at all.

But it will -- it will make exactly that 1 or 2 percent difference, and that's important. Pollution is a matter of percentages. Fuel waste is a matter of percentages. Crash survivability is a matter of percentages. And with SUV sales falling much more than 1 or 2 percent lately (20 to 40 percent), maybe it isn't only high gas prices that are changing people's minds, though of course prices are the main reason.

Industry analyst Peter DeLorenzo tells Reuters. "After gorging on faddish, oversized SUVs for years, while studiously avoiding more rational vehicle choices, drivers in this country have woken up with a relentless hangover from Katrina made up of the double-whammy of tight supplies and jaw-dropping prices. SUV sales aren't just slowing -- they're crashing to a halt."

The best way to kill a fad is to make it uncool. There are many people who, when it comes time to buy the next car, will remember, consciously or subconsciously, what people commonly say about SUV drivers (fat, stupid, lazy, selfish, wasteful, etc.) and they will remember the hostile reactions to SUVs, from the middle finger to keying and all the way up to arson. Regardless of whether they agree with such opinions and reactions (like me, most people probably aren't in favor of arson), their purchasing decisions will be affected, and probably not in favor of buying SUVs.
posted by pracowity at 3:14 PM on September 28, 2005

Mitheral: Believe it or not some people value the look of their autos just like other people value the look of their clothes/grass/house.

I'm not big on the looks of any of those things, but that's not what I was after. I was surprised that anyone thinks SUVs are attractive. I've always thought of them as ungainly lumps on wheels, like Baby Huey sitting in a child's wagon, and that their buyers put up with their unattractiveness for the sake of other reasons.
posted by pracowity at 3:20 PM on September 28, 2005

27: Maybe. But I'm not buying my vehicle for "everybody". No more than I bought/built my house for "everybody" or any number of personal choice that really aren't any of "everbody's" business.

Cars are not usually enjoyed in private, and given their impact on the public sphere, you should expect to have to justify your choice of car.

Imagine if I decided to carry a gallon of nitroglycerine in my bag when I rode my bike, and when confronted with the threat this presented to others, shrugged and said "Shit, that's just how I roll..."

You own a car which is, compared to the other options presented to you at the time, a higher risk to others on the road. It's not a certainty that you'll plow into a subcompact, killing everyone inside, or that you'll roll on the freeway--in fact, these are all pretty unlikely--but the rest of us on the road don't really appreciate the additional risk, all because it's your "personal choice."

That's what this is about: you deciding that you should be able to leverage your wealth and ignorance/lack of empathy into a cooler ride for yourself and more dangerous roads for everyone.

Your choices affect others, 27. God knows you don't see it, but the rest of us do.
posted by Coda at 3:20 PM on September 28, 2005

Atreides: The only real point is that SUVs do not in the end really make the driver, the driver makes the driver. If Mini Coopers were the most popular vehicle on the road, people would be railing against Mini Coopers.

Well, thanks to the high gas prices (and SUVs not getting humongous tax breaks) small cars like the Mini are the norm over here in Europe. Nobody rails against small cars in particular, and most people here too think SUV drivers are total pricks.

Why? Because by driving an unnecessarily big vehicle, you are driving energy prices up for everybody else and endangering all other drivers with a vehicle that has twice as much mass (and therefore, kinetic energy in case of a crash) than anybody else, and that also is a lot more likely to crash into something due to its high center of gravity and agricultural suspension. To say nothing about the danger those high bonnets (never mind aftermarket bull bars, thankfully banned in the EU) represent for pedestrians. So yes, SUV drivers are pricks, unless they really need 4wd day in, day off, and even then I wouldn't see the point of a Cadillac Escalade or a Hummer H2.

27: I drive an SUV. I have a large penis and an above-average IQ.

Man, the best don't advertise (and somebody with an above-average IQ should know better than writing the above sentence...)

Could it just be that SUV owners like the look, feel, ride, sense of safety, comfort, space, features, and value that they get from their vehicles?

Look? You mean the Pontiac Aztec? Comfort and space? Hmm, last week I was in the States and had to drive around in a Ford Explorer. The thing was ugly, drove like shit, took more than twice as much space as my own car and yet felt more cramped than a Mini and bounced like a Space Hopper when one caught a pothole. Worst POS I've ever driven. As for the "features", the A/C and the radio were also crap. What's the " value" in all that, especially if one must take a new mortgage at each gas station?

SUV owners are assholes, because buying an SUV is being an asshole. An asshole to the environment as well as to your fellow road users. So 27, if you think flipping off is aggressive, tough shit: I think that buying an SUV is a lot more aggressive, as well as wasteful and plain dumb.
posted by Skeptic at 3:52 PM on September 28, 2005

This argument is getting ridiculous.

Imagine if I decided to carry a gallon of nitroglycerine in my bag when I rode my bike...

If it makes you feel any better, we agree on this one. I don't advocate riding around with any highly volatile, highly explosive materials either. What this has to do with driving an SUV is beyond me though. I mean, is that even legal? Because driving an SUV is perfectly legal and well within my right. Bad analogy.

Man, the best don't advertise (and somebody with an above-average IQ should know better than writing the above sentence...)

I know, ridiculous isn't it? Just like saying that SUV drivers are dumb and have small dicks - and I suppose that econo-box drivers must be brilliant and well-hung, right?. Get my point?

...SUV owners are assholes, because buying an SUV is being an asshole. An asshole to the environment as well as to your fellow road users. So 27, if you think flipping off is aggressive, tough shit: I think that buying an SUV is a lot more aggressive, as well as wasteful and plain dumb.

Nope, I don't like the Aztec either. And I don't agree with your opinions on the way an SUV drives. Good for you though, you're welcome to those opinions. It's just that I disagree and it's my choice, thanks. I like the ride, the view, the look, the feel, etc. and I have absolutely no problem paying at the pump. I suspect that others do too, and that it's not our excessive disregard for gays and indigenous peoples as the study suggest.

Furthermore, you think you're going to bully me by flipping me off? Wrong. You think that if you flipped me off in traffic that I'd even know what it was about? You make me laugh. Clearly, you're a tough, tough guy behind a keyboard. I'll be on the lookout for you. Keep flipping people off, and we'll start caring sooner or later. Really, we will. Everybody knows the big part the bird plays in all the big socio-economic and environmental movements. Try two middle fingers next time (just make sure your vehicle isn't in motion).

You know, I've honestly considered downsizing or going hybrid with my next vehicle. The vitriol, stereotyping, and aggression in this thread is making me reconsider. Who the fuck would want to do anything for the good of a bunch of people who label you an asshole the minute you "fall out of line" with their thinking and try to bully you back "in line"? Talk about assholery... Some of you sound like the facist, conservatives that you usually spend you're time ripping on.
posted by 27 at 5:15 PM on September 28, 2005

The vitriol, stereotyping, and aggression in this thread is making me reconsider.

Yes. I always base my purchasing decisions based my reactions against anonymous nobodies on the Internet.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:25 PM on September 28, 2005

I must admit, however, that I don't think I'd get nearly so defensive as 27 has been, were someone to say mean things about my vehicular choice (an '01 Subaru Forester, or a beatup KLR 650, take your pick).

I think my next car purchase shall be an ultra-efficient SMART car. They're as scary-looking as all hell but, man, do they make a lot of sense for 99% of the driving we do!
posted by five fresh fish at 5:30 PM on September 28, 2005

27: "No emissions controls at all? Even I have that beat. I figured there might've been a few hypocrites masquerading as crusaders in this thread."

Well, since the State of California, with the toughest emissions standard in the US (and plenty of serious environmentalists too), says it's OK and legal for my 40-year-old collector car to not have smog equipment - because it wasn't originally built with any, and because the small number of such vehicles represents a very small pollution footprint compared to other types of cars - I don't think I'll lose sleep.

You can call me a hypocrite all you want, 27, but remember I don't commute in my muscle car or drive it all over the place to shop and do laundry and taxi the kids around. I've only put about 1800 miles on it since I bought it in December 2003, which means it has guzzled a grand total of about 150 gallons of gas in 22 months. How much have your 4x4's swilled in that period?

I make up for its mileage and pollution by putting most of my miles on my motorcycle instead (about 8,000 a year). Low environmental footprint, 45 mpg (less than 350 gallons in the above time period, in case anyone's counting. What's that, 7 tankfuls for a Tahoe?)

Besides, while SUV gas mileage is a problem in my eyes, that's not really what the study and this thread are about. It's about people driving SUVs tending to be self-absorbed dicks who tend to drive poorly and who really don't care much about other people or the "greater good of the community."
posted by zoogleplex at 5:38 PM on September 28, 2005

Yes. I always base my purchasing decisions based my reactions against anonymous nobodies on the Internet.

No. If I'm understanding some in this thread, you're supposed to base your reactions against anonymous nobodies who flip you off on the road or blog about you.
posted by 27 at 5:44 PM on September 28, 2005

Well, since the State of California, with the toughest emissions standard in the US (and plenty of serious environmentalists too), says it's OK and legal for my 40-year-old collector car to not have smog equipment - because it wasn't originally built with any, and because the small number of such vehicles represents a very small pollution footprint compared to other types of cars - I don't think I'll lose sleep.

Oh cool, that's the same State that I registered my SUV in!! Looks like we're both OK. I won't go to all the trouble rationalizing that you are though. And I won't lose any sleep either.
posted by 27 at 5:46 PM on September 28, 2005

If you think owning a collector car that I hardly drive is equivalent to putting 20,000 miles a year on a big SUV in terms of environmental impact and disregard for my community, then I don't think I'm the one who's rationalizing.
posted by zoogleplex at 5:50 PM on September 28, 2005

You know, I've honestly considered downsizing or going hybrid with my next vehicle. The vitriol, stereotyping, and aggression in this thread is making me reconsider. Who the fuck would want to do anything for the good of a bunch of people who label you an asshole the minute you "fall out of line" with their thinking and try to bully you back "in line"? Talk about assholery

This strikes me as particularly typical of SUV drivers. I am going to do something against my best interest and your best interest, because I have an axe to grind.

Something tells me that people don't dislike 27 only because he drives and SUV.
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 5:59 PM on September 28, 2005

Who's putting 20K miles on a SUV? Me? Nope. I work <10 miles from home and rarely drive it on the weekends. But when I do drive, I like it. I wish I were free to disagree on that without being an asshole.

This, in a nutshell is my issue with this post (before the attack turned inward on me). It assumes so much. Look at the traits ascribed to SUV owners. Can some of those things even be measured reliably? And do you really think that any of those things have anything to do with vehicle choice?

I don't. I don't have a study to prove it, I just know myself and plenty of others that own SUVs that don't fit the description. It just doesn't strike an honest/legitimate chord to me, based on what I know. And the more people comment, the more it's clear that they don't know differently, they just think they do because somebody cut them off or tailgated them in traffic once. Like everybody who drives a high-mileage vehicle stays in their own lane, never speeds, and always signals, right?

Anyway, I'm going to quit while I'm behind. Happy motoring.
posted by 27 at 6:00 PM on September 28, 2005

Something tells me that people don't dislike 27 only because he drives and SUV.

Fuck you. My point was that trying to intimidate people isn't the way to go.
posted by 27 at 6:02 PM on September 28, 2005

Atreides writes "If Mini Coopers were the most popular vehicle on the road, people would be railing against Mini Coopers."

Well that had to be the stupidest statement made in this thread. Congratulations!
posted by clevershark at 9:56 PM on September 28, 2005

27 writes "You know, I've honestly considered downsizing or going hybrid with my next vehicle. The vitriol, stereotyping, and aggression in this thread is making me reconsider."

Having read your comments, the idea that you would actually take an active decision to alter your plans just to spite people you've most likely never met doesn't seem that outlandish. One thing's for sure -- I'd hate to have your life.
posted by clevershark at 10:01 PM on September 28, 2005

One thing's for sure -- I'd hate to have your life.

Please, clevershark, email me offline and tell me everything you know about my life. I'm dying to find out.
posted by 27 at 10:26 PM on September 28, 2005

Come on, 27, you have to see the point by now: even if you don't change your mind, even if you actually (I doubt it) might decide to buy an SUV only to spite anti-SUV people, many other people will be swayed by such studies as the one linked and by people discussing them in places like this. Future car purchasers will wonder whether they want to join a group that tends to be obese, reactionary, unintellectual, shopping-addicted middle-class commuters.
posted by pracowity at 10:56 PM on September 28, 2005

Believe me when I say that I do get it. And no, I'm not buying anything to spite anyone. I was merely trying to make the point that bullying or "shaming" people is (IMO) not the way to get people to do what you want.

Judging by the way this thread turned into an attack on me, I don't think I have momentum on my side here. You've got people reading a half dozen posts and saying they wouldn't want "my life" (as if it was something the could have anyway) and that they've figured out why "people don't like me" (what people, exactly?). With dickheads like that banging the drum, don't be surprised if SUV purchases increase. I can't speak for everybody, but I don't respond well to bullying. Never have. And when I see the rapid conclusions these people have drawn about me, it doesn't lend a bit of credibility to their opinions of SUV drivers in general.

As for the study that was the subject of this post, I'm just not buying it. It runs almost directly opposite to who I am and what I've seen personally from the SUV owners I know. I'd like to know why this study was conducted, by whom, and (probably most importantly) who paid for it.

Gotta admit, it seems to have seized on many of the stereotypes held by those in this forum. Maybe truthfully so. Maybe just conveniently so.
posted by 27 at 11:11 PM on September 28, 2005

Judging by the way this thread turned into an attack on me...

If you'll just review your first comment, I think you'll see why you didn't make a good impression on people.

People who are against SUVs generally are so because they care about things other than themselves, especially about the environment (natural environment and human/urban/civic environment). They think that what you do directly affects their lives and what they do directly affects yours, that no one leads an entirely independent life.

Then you come in being purposely obnoxious and asking "why exactly should I give a shit about what you think I drive anyway?" And so on. You shouldn't pretend to be surprised that people reacted as you had hoped people would react. People were irritated with you from the start because you aimed to be an irritant. You rubbed raw meat on your body, jumped into a lion cage, hit lions on the head with a stick, and then said "Judging by the way the lions attacked me..." as if poor you had nothing to do with it.

If you want to do something better than banter and bother, you should instead point to some research that shows SUV drivers to be that group of thin, athletic, progressive, adventurous, intellectual people among whom you number yourself. At the least, you could follow up on your suspicions about the origins of the survey.
posted by pracowity at 2:01 AM on September 29, 2005

27, up-thread: I've made two posts on this topic. You know me now.

And now you've made a lot more, and I know that my initial evaluation of you has been borne out in spades.
posted by lodurr at 6:15 AM on September 29, 2005

How many kids am I allowed to have before I become an asshole? After all that is a personal choice that does have an impact on the environment.
How many square feet can my house be until I'm considered an asshole? How many motorcycles, snowmobiles, lawn tractors, boats? Who wrote the manual, and where can I get a copy?
posted by reidfleming at 6:26 AM on September 29, 2005

pracowity writes "that their buyers put up with their unattractiveness for the sake of other reasons."

Ah, I understand. Well as always beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I got to admit there are a lot of ugly looking SUVs out there. To a certain extent I think that is part of their appeal with some demographics, they want there vehicle to be obnoxious.

I also think it is also a side effect of the desire to rebel against the unceasing blandness of the minivan/sedan[1]/coupe/compact market. The mini van and small to mid size sedan market especially. Heaven forbid a car design invoke passion good or bad. The SUV market is so lucrative that there is a little more lee way given to designers. You need that or a semi desperate company like Chrysler to break the mold.

The profits have also mightily distorted the market. Who would of thought that a) Porsche would bring out a truck and b) it would outstrip sales of the 911. Part of Mitsubishi's problem is they do not have players in the SUV market. Everyone else is subsidising their small car engineering with high margin SUV and LT sales, even Honda has started making a quasi pickup.

[1] the new 300 being the peverbial rule proving exception.
posted by Mitheral at 7:07 AM on September 29, 2005

SUV drivers tend to have a stronger travel freedom attitude, and are less likely to be frustrated. They tend to enjoy short-distance traveling by personal vehicle...
They are also overrepresented among highly educated or higher income people. Similar to minivan drivers, the SUV driver group has a higher than average proportion in larger households with children.

Also worth noting from this study: Small car owners are more likely to be "loners".

So, here's a study that says SUV owners are brighter and richer than the average person (dispelling two of the myths of the other study). They also have larger than average households, which calls into question the "anti-community" claim of the other study.

Not that I expect this will earn me any credit here, but you asked for contrary information...

reidfleming: Good point.
posted by 27 at 8:07 AM on September 29, 2005

Similar to minivan drivers, the SUV driver group has a higher than average proportion in larger households with children.

Well duh. When shopping for a vehicle to haul a spouse and 2.3 kids plus their assorted gear (car seats, diaper bags, drinks, toys, sports equipment, bicycles, etc. etc.) the first choice ain't a mini; however cute they may be.
posted by Mitheral at 9:17 AM on September 29, 2005

LOL. 27, dude, you sure are a pitbull about your SUV! It must be dreadfully important to you.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:59 AM on September 29, 2005

From 27's link:

This research was funded by the DaimlerChrysler Corporation

That is, the makers of the Dodge Durango, Dakota and Ram, Jeep and the Mercedes ML and G. And don't forget the Unimog!

BTW, 27, you mentioned the "view" from a SUV as one of the reasons to buy one. This "I get a better sight of the traffic" argument is what I consider the best proof of the sociopathic tendencies of SUV drivers, because, of course they get a better view, but at the cost of blocking everybody else's. Now, would anybody tolerate that sort of behaviour at the cinema? "Yeah, I like to watch the movies standing on the seat. I get a better view and I look dashing too."

reidfleming: How many kids am I allowed to have before I become an asshole?

Well, 13, perhaps? Although, just one may be enough, if you are unable to take care of even a single child...

Same for the other examples: if you don't care for the consequences of your acts on others, you are an asshole. As for the instruction manual, I never needed one. Having a conscience usually helps.
posted by Skeptic at 12:26 PM on September 29, 2005

The Unimog is more of a tractor than an SUV, rarely would someone choose one for daily transportation unless it was their only vehicle. I don't think I've ever seen them on the road here. Not surprising as gearing designed for off-road use limits them to a flat out top speed around 100km/h.

Besides which DC also makes the PT Cruiser, the leading and best minivan (desiel in europe), until recently the Neon, and the Smart (it doesn't get much less SUV than that and still have four wheels). It seems they are servicing both ends of the market.

Skeptic writes "'I get a better sight of the traffic' argument is what I consider the best proof of the sociopathic tendencies of SUV drivers, because, of course they get a better view, but at the cost of blocking everybody else's."

I'd disagree. Sitting higher up, whether in an SUV, minivan, pickup, or OTR Tractor does allow you to better see over curves in the road and roadside obstructions like fences and hedges. It's the same thinking that caused sailing ships to have crowsnests. But even driving my Fiero I never felt hampered by the size of the vehicles I was sharing the road with but instead I had reduced visiblity because my butt had about 25cm seperating it from the road putting my eyes below belt buckle level. It's been my experience that many of the people who complain about not being able to see around SUVs are those who tend to tailgate so bad you'd think they were attempting to draft the car in front of them at Talladega.
posted by Mitheral at 1:31 PM on September 29, 2005

The level of bile in this thread directed at SUV drivers is amazing. Not everyone drives one of these things because they are selfish, arrogant or small weenied. Some people have great use for such a vehicle - they have large families, need to haul boats, actually go off road, etc. By the time you get to the guy driving the big Hummer perhaps some of the stereotypes make more sense.

I have a much bigger issue with the lawmakers who make the laws that encourage buying the big monsters which make the road less safe for everyone else. Let's level the playing field a bit. Hold the SUVs to the same safety and fleet mileage requirements as other vehicles. Get some rollover standards in place or at least provide consumers with info to encourage the design of less rollover prone vehicles. Get some standards in place regarding bumper height to minimize damage to another vehicle hit by an SUV. Add some taxes to gas to cover the effects of consumption upon the environment - no more free riding on this issue. Stop giving crazy tax incentives which encourage small business owners to buy a huge expensive SUV rather than a passenger car, even if the business only needs a car.

All these policies are essentially a subsidy from the US taxpayer to the Detroit auto companies, the primary makers of the big SUVs. Few other industries get this kind of protection. Its importance to the US economy is less than it was in the 70's and 80's when most of these policy decisions were being made. Let them compete like other industries. They have some structural problems which lead to high costs like health insurance and underfunded pension plans. If we are going to give Detroit money, at least give it to them in a way that encourages production and purchase of more reasonable vehicles. SUVs can still be there for those who need or desire them, let's just stop subsidizing SUVs at the expense of other vehicles.

*gets tired, ends rant prematurely, believe it or not.
posted by caddis at 1:47 PM on September 29, 2005

LOL. 27, dude, you sure are a pitbull about your SUV! It must be dreadfully important to you.

I definitely see where you'd think that, but I promise you that's not the case. It's the abnormally harsh stereotypes and tangential thinking being applied here that really bothers me.

This "I get a better sight of the traffic" argument is what I consider the best proof of the sociopathic tendencies of SUV drivers, because, of course they get a better view, but at the cost of blocking everybody else's. Now, would anybody tolerate that sort of behaviour at the cinema?

I hear you, skeptic. The guy who lives behind me built a two-story house, thereby blocking my view of the surrounding mountains and some of the sky. He's clearly a sociopath, and by peering an inch over the wall that separates us for five minutes one day, I've determined that his two story house is wasteful and that he can barely afford the cost of heating and air conditioning for it. Furthermore, it's a danger to birds and low-flying planes who might crash into it. Every time I see him, I flip him off. He has no idea why, but I do it anyway because I'm an activist and I can't believe he purchased a plot of land and built something that in my great wisdom I've decided is more than he needs or puts to good use. Who's he to make a decision like that without considering me?

Be sure to visit me at twostoryhousessuck.com to see pictures of me lighting a bag of dog shit on fire on this doorstep. That'll teach 'em!

if you don't care for the consequences of your acts on others, you are an asshole.

Everyone does something that affects someone else negatively. Even you. Learn to deal or learn to fuck off, I really don't care. But all you're doing is fooling yourself by applying these dumb fucking stereotypes to a group of people that aren't doing what you'd do. Many here have claimed SUV owners are arrogant. What, exactly, about telling me what I should/shouldn't do with my money and choice of vehicle isn't arrogant? It's legal, it's lawful, and it's none of your god damn business.

You're no activist. You're just a jerk running off at the mouth. And you're never going to convince anyone that way. Fix your message and you might get somewhere.
posted by 27 at 2:40 PM on September 29, 2005

caddis writes "Hold the SUVs to the same safety and fleet mileage requirements as other vehicles. Get some rollover standards in place or at least provide consumers with info to encourage the design of less rollover prone vehicles. Get some standards in place regarding bumper height to minimize damage to another vehicle hit by an SUV. "

I agree but we have to watch not to legislate out of existance like happened with light aircraft. What I mean by that is the laws of phyics are going to constrain certian minimums in things like roll overs. Heaven knows a lot more can be done though like eliminating suspensions that jack under unequal side to side loading. Actually enforcing laws that limit the use of medium duty trucks on residential roads would be a big step forward but I'd imagine wildly unpopular. Similiar things have been done though. I remember when they started weighing light trucks in BC during spot checks. You'd think the world had come to an end judjing by all the ranting and teeth nashing but the highways are a lot safer there because of it.
posted by Mitheral at 3:00 PM on September 29, 2005

Mitheral: The Unimog is more of a tractor than an SUV

OK, I was being provocative with that mention. I actually have a great deal of respect for the Unimog, which (unlike most SUVs), is actually an impressive piece of purpose-driven engineering. Which makes it even more sad when a few people buy it as "an SUV even meaner than the Hummer".

Besides which DC also makes the PT Cruiser, the leading and best minivan (desiel in europe), until recently the Neon, and the Smart

I wouldn't call the PT Cruiser "best minivan" by any standard, but that's beside the point. And DC is still not selling the Smart in the US (and it looks as if may not be selling it for long in Europe either), just as it also refuses to ship their actually quite nice A- and B-Class over the Atlantic. The point is, that "survey" 27 quotes avoids saying nasty things about any drivers, which is unsurprising if it was funded by a car company, any car company. The worst is calling small car drivers "loners", and the car makers hardly like them anyway, as profit margins selling small cars (and the Smart Car Company is barely living proof of that) are minimal. Much unlike the profit margins on SUVs...

It's been my experience that many of the people who complain about not being able to see around SUVs are those who tend to tailgate

Heh, I might seem cranky saying this, but while I dislike luxury SUV drivers, I absolutely loathe tailgaters. However, while leaving a safe distance may be enough to see around SUVs out of town, there's little to do about it in urban driving. And ín our dinky narrow European streets, I've often found SUVs to be extremely annoying and dangerous visual obstructions in street corners, zebra crossings, near traffic lights and traffic signs, etc....

Actually enforcing laws that limit the use of medium duty trucks on residential roads would be a big step forward but I'd imagine wildly unpopular.

That seems quite radical even to me (I don't think it would be accepted, even in the most tree-hugging town). I'd be content with all artificial inducements to buy an SUV to be removed, externalities being taken into account when taxing them and people be made aware of their cost to community and environment.

27:The guy who lives behind me built a two-story house, thereby blocking my view of the surrounding mountains and some of the sky.

To build a two-story house, he had to comply with planning regulations. In many places there actually are limits on building height, and people have to submit their building plans to public scrutiny. There are even ways to appeal against a building permit being issued in your neighbourhood. So?

Be sure to visit me at twostoryhousessuck.com to see pictures of me lighting a bag of dog shit on fire on this doorstep. That'll teach 'em!


Straw man. You won't see me vandalising SUVs. That's just another category of asshole-ism. But you won't stop me from telling you that your choice of vehicle is egoistic, unconsiderate, wasteful and stupid. And I don't think it's arrogant to do so if I can motivate my indictment.

Everyone does something that affects someone else negatively. Even you.

Yes, I know. That's what I wrote "if you don't care". I know that all my acts have consequences, positive and negative, to other people, I just try to do my best to have, at the end of the day, a positive balance. Just issuing a big "Fuck Off" to the rest of the world, however, is sociopathic. And arrogant.

But all you're doing is fooling yourself by applying these dumb fucking stereotypes

What stereotypes? I found the FPP survey amusing, but pointless, as such surveys usually are. I personally am not trying to apply any stereotype to SUV owners, I'm just saying that owning an SUV is, in most cases, not a considerate or intelligent choice (in short: rather asshole-ish).

What, exactly, about telling me what I should/shouldn't do with my money and choice of vehicle isn't arrogant?

I am telling you what you shouldn't do with our roads, our cities and our planet.

It's legal, it's lawful, and it's none of your god damn business.


You mistake "legal" with "ethical", "lawful" with "moral" and "what I can afford" with "none of your business".
posted by Skeptic at 4:05 PM on September 29, 2005

To build a two-story house, he had to comply with planning regulations.
And in order to purchase, register, and drive my vehicle I have to comply with all applicable laws. In short, I'm doing nothing wrong. But my overall point was that just because my neighbor does something they deem in their best interest (and something that's well within their right), I don't take a quick glance at them and say "Asshole". You apparently do. That's sad. Try being more open minded.

You won't see me vandalising SUVs.
Thanks. Honestly. Others here have suggested that they would...

I am telling you what you shouldn't do with our roads, our cities and our planet.
Duly noted. But choosing not to take your suggestion doesn't make me an asshole.

I just try to do my best to have, at the end of the day, a positive balance.
Good. Me too. And I'm willing to bet there are a lot of other low-mileage vehicle drivers that do too. But that's just me - I'd be hesitant to judge anyone based on any one piece of information. Certainly not one so arbitrary and temporary as a vehicle choice. That tends to lead to misjudgement.

You mistake "legal" with "ethical", "lawful" with "moral" and "what I can afford" with "none of your business".
No, I don't. I said what I meant. It'd be cool if everybody followed our personal, specific, ethical code though. When you figure that out, let me know. Make sure you print a manual so everybody knows that you think they should do.
posted by 27 at 4:32 PM on September 29, 2005

*what you think they should do*
posted by 27 at 4:37 PM on September 29, 2005

Skeptic writes "I wouldn't call the PT Cruiser 'best minivan' by any standard, but that's beside the point. "

Sorry, that wasn't clear, I was talking about the Caravan.
posted by Mitheral at 6:21 PM on September 29, 2005