So She's Holding Out?
October 23, 2005 8:09 AM Subscribe
Why Your Wife Won't Have Sex with You. That quack Dr. Phil says that while sex is only 10% of a marriage, it's 90% when you're not getting it. Or words to that effect. There's some truth to that. This site discusses, from woman's point of view, why a wife might not feel like sex--often for years at a time. She also goes into greater detail (with insights taken from her own life and experience) such issues as some causes and what a man can do.
No woman ever wants to have sex with anyone. Accept it, and the worst that can happen is that you'll be pleasantly proven wrong now and then.
posted by Space Coyote at 8:47 AM on October 23, 2005
posted by Space Coyote at 8:47 AM on October 23, 2005
Given Dr Phil's notorious interest in spanking, I'm surprised that spanking and BDSM and roleplay isn't featured more prominently as a way of spicing up an LTR.
posted by meehawl at 8:54 AM on October 23, 2005
posted by meehawl at 8:54 AM on October 23, 2005
My wife won't have sex with me 'cause I read all the crap on that website. Oh... and all men are 'angry'. Whatever...
posted by matty at 8:55 AM on October 23, 2005
posted by matty at 8:55 AM on October 23, 2005
I wonder if there are any marriage hacks on that Lifehacker site. Meehawl's certainly hit upon one, and there are several others that I can think of.
posted by By The Grace of God at 8:57 AM on October 23, 2005
posted by By The Grace of God at 8:57 AM on October 23, 2005
Probably a lot more to the subject than a woman's complaints via her blog, or guys sneering etc etc. There may well be some ansers buried within Biology, and other answers having to do with Habit, familiarity, difference seeking, change....one way of beginning to look at the issue is to address the many instances of cheating (adultery)...why this? And then the notion of romantic expectations etc etc. Not to be ignored: when this indifference to sex is a problem, how long has the couple been married? Do men need sex more than women?
posted by Postroad at 8:58 AM on October 23, 2005
posted by Postroad at 8:58 AM on October 23, 2005
A lot of relationship problems you hear squawked about in the media are a result of a self-centred, adversarial approach to relationships. So many people view marriage as husband vs. wife in a situation where only one's will can dominate, an impression reinforced ad nauseum by television shows and articles like these.
I mean, gods forbid spouses work as a team, develop empathy, suppress selfish impulses, or learn to compromise. Committing to a long-term relationship, whether it's marriage or not, of neccessity involves giving something up of yourselves. Our perversely solipsistic society seems to refuse to do so.
It seems like a no-brainer to my partner and I to conduct our relationship, not as me against her, but as the two of us against the world. We've only been together three years, but it's been a mighty stable three years, and I can't help but attribute that to the way we approach things like compromise.
posted by S.C. at 9:24 AM on October 23, 2005
I mean, gods forbid spouses work as a team, develop empathy, suppress selfish impulses, or learn to compromise. Committing to a long-term relationship, whether it's marriage or not, of neccessity involves giving something up of yourselves. Our perversely solipsistic society seems to refuse to do so.
It seems like a no-brainer to my partner and I to conduct our relationship, not as me against her, but as the two of us against the world. We've only been together three years, but it's been a mighty stable three years, and I can't help but attribute that to the way we approach things like compromise.
posted by S.C. at 9:24 AM on October 23, 2005
Amen, S.C., amen. I've been married 5 years (together 11 years), and this hasn't been a problem thanks, in large part, to what you articulated above. The adversarial approach to relationships so often pimped by hacks like Dr. Phil ends up causing a lot more pain than it seeks to remedy.
posted by psmealey at 9:27 AM on October 23, 2005
posted by psmealey at 9:27 AM on October 23, 2005
While not the only assumption, it is important to remember that males and females have different biological imperatives.
While we like to add a lot of "window dressing" to relationships, we cannot ignore that we are animals, and have millions of years of evolution dictating what these biological imperatives are.
At the lowest level, males exist only for genetic diversity in the species. And while males are compelled to mate with as many females as possible, females are compelled to discriminate, to seek to reproduce with only the best males. These processes include involuntary ones, such as "specialized sperm", and selectivity by the female, in which sperm are allowed to reach to ovum.
At a social level, males have one *prerogative*, that being to reproduce with as many females as possible. Females, however, have two *prerogatives*, both to get the "best" possible sperm for their offspring, *and* to get a male partner to help them raise their offspring. These are not necessarily the same male.
This explains marriage, or at least an agreement for monogamy. The husband agrees to help raise the offspring, if they are his; in exchange, the female agrees to limit her partner selection to the male, in exchange for his support in raising the offspring. In modern times, with "the collapse of marriage" as an *enforced* institution, DNA testing and the civil law (child support) replace marriage to enforce this same, two-way agreement.
Much less certain are the post-children biological imperatives. Menapause is the obvious change, but some post-menapausal women lose sexual interest, while others gain sexual interest. Suggestions are that females may have a sexual "off" switch, if having more children would be too physically difficult for them to survive. Another idea is that post-menapausal women would attract less-desireable males away from the more desireable females.
A different hypothesis is that parents are in some way "disabled", once they have children, it being less important that they actively troll for mates than that they "settle down" to raise their children. It does not have to be great in effect, just something that makes them less desireable as potential mates.
Another phenomenon that has been observed is the "grandmother mortality". While grandmothers provide a useful role in child rearing, which may be a species trait, it has been noted that there is a steep jump in mortality immediately after their grandchildren have completed some "coming of age" ceremony. In the west, graduation from high school and college are often followed by a statistical jump in grandmother deaths. No equivalent seems to exist in males.
This phenomenon is not pronounced in the species, as women still statistically outlive men.
Again, while these biological imperatives are always there, they are not as strong as in animals, and people have ways to mitigate and disregard them. However, they cannot be ignored.
posted by kablam at 9:27 AM on October 23, 2005
While we like to add a lot of "window dressing" to relationships, we cannot ignore that we are animals, and have millions of years of evolution dictating what these biological imperatives are.
At the lowest level, males exist only for genetic diversity in the species. And while males are compelled to mate with as many females as possible, females are compelled to discriminate, to seek to reproduce with only the best males. These processes include involuntary ones, such as "specialized sperm", and selectivity by the female, in which sperm are allowed to reach to ovum.
At a social level, males have one *prerogative*, that being to reproduce with as many females as possible. Females, however, have two *prerogatives*, both to get the "best" possible sperm for their offspring, *and* to get a male partner to help them raise their offspring. These are not necessarily the same male.
This explains marriage, or at least an agreement for monogamy. The husband agrees to help raise the offspring, if they are his; in exchange, the female agrees to limit her partner selection to the male, in exchange for his support in raising the offspring. In modern times, with "the collapse of marriage" as an *enforced* institution, DNA testing and the civil law (child support) replace marriage to enforce this same, two-way agreement.
Much less certain are the post-children biological imperatives. Menapause is the obvious change, but some post-menapausal women lose sexual interest, while others gain sexual interest. Suggestions are that females may have a sexual "off" switch, if having more children would be too physically difficult for them to survive. Another idea is that post-menapausal women would attract less-desireable males away from the more desireable females.
A different hypothesis is that parents are in some way "disabled", once they have children, it being less important that they actively troll for mates than that they "settle down" to raise their children. It does not have to be great in effect, just something that makes them less desireable as potential mates.
Another phenomenon that has been observed is the "grandmother mortality". While grandmothers provide a useful role in child rearing, which may be a species trait, it has been noted that there is a steep jump in mortality immediately after their grandchildren have completed some "coming of age" ceremony. In the west, graduation from high school and college are often followed by a statistical jump in grandmother deaths. No equivalent seems to exist in males.
This phenomenon is not pronounced in the species, as women still statistically outlive men.
Again, while these biological imperatives are always there, they are not as strong as in animals, and people have ways to mitigate and disregard them. However, they cannot be ignored.
posted by kablam at 9:27 AM on October 23, 2005
> If you do a quick search on any dating sight, you'll find a
> whole pile of "nice", "honest", "romantic", "loving" guys.
In my experience though, what women say that they want,
and what they genuinely do want, aren't always the same
thing.
For example, all of these qualities may also be seen as
falling into the category of 'boring'. I mean, if these were
really the qualities that women genuinely wanted, presumably
they wouldn't be hanging around, advertising for dates for
very long?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:31 AM on October 23, 2005
> whole pile of "nice", "honest", "romantic", "loving" guys.
In my experience though, what women say that they want,
and what they genuinely do want, aren't always the same
thing.
For example, all of these qualities may also be seen as
falling into the category of 'boring'. I mean, if these were
really the qualities that women genuinely wanted, presumably
they wouldn't be hanging around, advertising for dates for
very long?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:31 AM on October 23, 2005
Curious- are you married, kablam?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:34 AM on October 23, 2005 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:34 AM on October 23, 2005 [1 favorite]
PeterMcDermott : "For example, all of these qualities may also be seen as
"falling into the category of 'boring'. I mean, if these were
"really the qualities that women genuinely wanted, presumably
"they wouldn't be hanging around, advertising for dates for
"very long?"
Well, yes and no. Those qualities are qualities which, if they are the only qualities, would fall into the category of "boring". Even if those qualities are qualities that women really want, if they lack other qualities that women also want, or if they have some really lousy traits in addition to those qualities, they could still be stuck looking for dates.
For example: many people say they want music players that are light, have good battery time, and lots of storage space. However, if I made a music player that was light, had good battery time, lots of storage space, and shot painful electricity into ones ears every 5 minutes, people wouldn't buy it. That doesn't mean that they didn't really want a light, batteryfull, storagey player.
posted by Bugbread at 9:46 AM on October 23, 2005
"falling into the category of 'boring'. I mean, if these were
"really the qualities that women genuinely wanted, presumably
"they wouldn't be hanging around, advertising for dates for
"very long?"
Well, yes and no. Those qualities are qualities which, if they are the only qualities, would fall into the category of "boring". Even if those qualities are qualities that women really want, if they lack other qualities that women also want, or if they have some really lousy traits in addition to those qualities, they could still be stuck looking for dates.
For example: many people say they want music players that are light, have good battery time, and lots of storage space. However, if I made a music player that was light, had good battery time, lots of storage space, and shot painful electricity into ones ears every 5 minutes, people wouldn't buy it. That doesn't mean that they didn't really want a light, batteryfull, storagey player.
posted by Bugbread at 9:46 AM on October 23, 2005
From the section on Disgust:
It might be fair to say that for many women, their libidos ask "why," when men's ask "why not?"
Come on! And really, are women so disgusted when their husbands fart that they will not have sex with them? Admittedly, I am not married, but if my husband's body odor or gas start repelling me so much that I no longer want to bone him, I think it would my my responsibility to figure out why that's happening, not his responsibility to eat less broccoli.
posted by Uncle Glendinning at 9:52 AM on October 23, 2005
It might be fair to say that for many women, their libidos ask "why," when men's ask "why not?"
Come on! And really, are women so disgusted when their husbands fart that they will not have sex with them? Admittedly, I am not married, but if my husband's body odor or gas start repelling me so much that I no longer want to bone him, I think it would my my responsibility to figure out why that's happening, not his responsibility to eat less broccoli.
posted by Uncle Glendinning at 9:52 AM on October 23, 2005
hmmm ... back in the 40s and 50s there were all sorts of articles, often written by men, telling women how to be better wives by "starting with yourself" ... and now, it's women telling men how to be better husbands by "starting with yourself" ... i'm not sure that's an advancement
here's a fact ... there are people who take any sign of kindness or consideration to be weakness ... and if you're unfortunate to be married to one of them, then trying to be nicer or kinder or whatever is just going to dig the hole deeper for you
appeasement doesn't work with batterers ... why would anyone think it would work with the deliberately neglectful? ... and although there are women who don't want to have sex because of other reasons, many are doing it to excercise power over their men ... or because they're emotionally neglectful
her advice could work for some people in some situations ... but be aware that in others it's the worst advice one can take
posted by pyramid termite at 9:57 AM on October 23, 2005
here's a fact ... there are people who take any sign of kindness or consideration to be weakness ... and if you're unfortunate to be married to one of them, then trying to be nicer or kinder or whatever is just going to dig the hole deeper for you
appeasement doesn't work with batterers ... why would anyone think it would work with the deliberately neglectful? ... and although there are women who don't want to have sex because of other reasons, many are doing it to excercise power over their men ... or because they're emotionally neglectful
her advice could work for some people in some situations ... but be aware that in others it's the worst advice one can take
posted by pyramid termite at 9:57 AM on October 23, 2005
I hate reading things like this that lumps all women and men into these categories: women don't want sex and men will do anything and everything for it. You don't hear much about men/husbands not wanting sex and the women/wifes going batshitinsane to get just a little tushy grab.
posted by rhapsodie at 10:13 AM on October 23, 2005
posted by rhapsodie at 10:13 AM on October 23, 2005
pyramid termite : "her advice could work for some people in some situations ... but be aware that in others it's the worst advice one can take"
To be fair, she also points that out herself:
To be fair, she also points that out herself:
If she is the one and only, absolutely immovable cause of all your sexual difficulties, you can do nothing to improve the situation. You might as well give up, today, this minute, and go out and get divorced.posted by Bugbread at 10:21 AM on October 23, 2005
Maybe that's what you'll ultimately decide to do. It's an honest option. Sometimes wives turn out to be impossibly neurotic or situations are so Fido Uniform that there's no hope. But if there's a possibility of encouraging a rebirth of your wife's sensuality and intimate affection, don't you want to at least try it before you file the papers?
Would like to hear from guys married (or women) ten or more years and with children...I suspect they would not be so delighted with things as are those married for 3-5 years. Things change. Or, perhaps, they do not! and that may be the problem too
posted by Postroad at 10:27 AM on October 23, 2005
posted by Postroad at 10:27 AM on October 23, 2005
Yeah, I read this blog years ago. It always pissed me because much of came off as blaming the man and saying that the man had to change. Now I'll give her credit for saying it was her situation and the advice might not apply to everyone and perhaps I was being harsh.
But.
I was always found her advice to be shitty and of little use in my marriage (which doesn't have sex problems anyway:)
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:34 AM on October 23, 2005
But.
I was always found her advice to be shitty and of little use in my marriage (which doesn't have sex problems anyway:)
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:34 AM on October 23, 2005
> I hate reading things like this that lumps all women and men
> into these categories: women don't want sex and men will do
> anything and everything for it. You don't hear much about
> men/husbands not wanting sex and the women/wifes going
> batshitinsane to get just a little tushy grab.
Sure you do. That's the part right before the man comes home early from the office and finds her in bed with the pool boy.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 10:48 AM on October 23, 2005
> into these categories: women don't want sex and men will do
> anything and everything for it. You don't hear much about
> men/husbands not wanting sex and the women/wifes going
> batshitinsane to get just a little tushy grab.
Sure you do. That's the part right before the man comes home early from the office and finds her in bed with the pool boy.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 10:48 AM on October 23, 2005
true, bugbread, she does say that, but it's within the context of not getting sex ... and in some relationships, that's not the only thing the woman's withholding or doing
i think my major problem is that she broadens the context of this problem to include what the man is doing and what his attitude is ... but she doesn't seem to want to take a look at what the woman's lack of desire could be saying about her and her motivations ...
posted by pyramid termite at 10:56 AM on October 23, 2005
i think my major problem is that she broadens the context of this problem to include what the man is doing and what his attitude is ... but she doesn't seem to want to take a look at what the woman's lack of desire could be saying about her and her motivations ...
posted by pyramid termite at 10:56 AM on October 23, 2005
People change, and while women can go without sex longer, men are sexually driven. The main problem is men will stay with a woman who doesn't have sex, and be faithful right up until the woman takes everything in the divorce. Men need to learn not to get married, and when the relationship gets bad, move on quickly... Right now women can have this "Fantasy" of grass being greener, they know they have the power to leave and take everything. The power over marriages for females is what is causing the problems. Add kids in the mix, and men are slaves to the system, staying with an unloving, uncaring wife.
So, maybe all her blogs about angry men, is because men are angry, angry at being powerless and being trapped in a unloving marriage.
posted by IronWolve at 10:57 AM on October 23, 2005
So, maybe all her blogs about angry men, is because men are angry, angry at being powerless and being trapped in a unloving marriage.
posted by IronWolve at 10:57 AM on October 23, 2005
Hey has anyone here but me actually seen Dr. Phil? He's pretty vocally anti-spanking, meehaw, and he's also big into compromise, psmealey. I'm not sure what adversarial approach you are referring to. His big catchphrase for relationships is, "you want to negotiate something you can both be excited about."
I'm not really sure why he's part of this discussion at all, unless it's so those of you who are too cool to watch daytime tv can feel superior to those of us who do watch it.
posted by selfmedicating at 10:58 AM on October 23, 2005
I'm not really sure why he's part of this discussion at all, unless it's so those of you who are too cool to watch daytime tv can feel superior to those of us who do watch it.
posted by selfmedicating at 10:58 AM on October 23, 2005
When I showed my wife this blog a few months ago, she got a little ticked at the title. Then she read it and said it was mostly great.
But I'm still not getting any.
posted by stinkycheese at 11:03 AM on October 23, 2005
But I'm still not getting any.
posted by stinkycheese at 11:03 AM on October 23, 2005
The hardest thing in any relationship is the hardest thing in any strategy game - knowing when to sacrifice.
In this, and this only, are the two alike.
posted by afroblanca at 11:06 AM on October 23, 2005
In this, and this only, are the two alike.
posted by afroblanca at 11:06 AM on October 23, 2005
No woman ever wants to have sex with anyone. Accept it, and the worst that can happen is that you'll be pleasantly proven wrong now and then.
I'm trying to think of something on heaven or earth that might be even a little bit less true than this, but I'm failing.
posted by bingo at 11:22 AM on October 23, 2005
Sex: Supply and Demand
This is another one where it's real easy to just brush off the author as a misogynist jerk (and if you read too much of his other stuff, it only gets worse). But note that at the beginning he admits that the situation is not the fault of the men *or* the women, but is more of a self-perpetuating social phenomenon. It's similar to Douglas Rushkoff's Coercion in which he argues that the machinery of modern marketing is so deeply rooted in our society that it is pointless to simply blame "greedy corporations" for the situation.
posted by idontlikewords at 11:32 AM on October 23, 2005
This is another one where it's real easy to just brush off the author as a misogynist jerk (and if you read too much of his other stuff, it only gets worse). But note that at the beginning he admits that the situation is not the fault of the men *or* the women, but is more of a self-perpetuating social phenomenon. It's similar to Douglas Rushkoff's Coercion in which he argues that the machinery of modern marketing is so deeply rooted in our society that it is pointless to simply blame "greedy corporations" for the situation.
posted by idontlikewords at 11:32 AM on October 23, 2005
Come on, idontlikewords- I can't take anything in that essay seriously, considering the guy is referring to his girlfriend as "Lying Whorebag".
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:37 AM on October 23, 2005 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:37 AM on October 23, 2005 [1 favorite]
I love how there's no concept that the Imbalance of Sexual Desire tables could ever be turned, and that there just might be, oh, I dunno, a wife or two out there who wants sex more than her husband does. But no: it presumes that all men want sex more or less consistently (and will never turn it down when offered), which is just as much fucking bullshit as presuming that all women would just as rather knit than fuck. Grrr.
posted by scody at 11:38 AM on October 23, 2005
posted by scody at 11:38 AM on October 23, 2005
This reminds me of a book that my Aunt (who was long divorced and never remarried, btw) had laying around. Basically it was about how to keep your husband happy. Essentially, a wife's job was to look pretty, be "available", always be encouraging, never put your husband down (especially behind his back to your girlfriends), be attentive, don't spend all his (and it definently was his) money etc etc. Or else that pretty slut down the street is going to seduce your man.
I found that repugnant when I read it in middle school, I don't see why this is any different, just shifting the blame to a different target.
posted by Talanvor at 11:41 AM on October 23, 2005
I found that repugnant when I read it in middle school, I don't see why this is any different, just shifting the blame to a different target.
posted by Talanvor at 11:41 AM on October 23, 2005
scody : "I love how there's no concept that the Imbalance of Sexual Desire tables could ever be turned, and that there just might be, oh, I dunno, a wife or two out there who wants sex more than her husband does."
I guess I'm reading it differently. To me, it comes off as "There are situations where women want sex more than men, situations where they want it equally, and situations where men want it more than women. This blog is about the third."
posted by Bugbread at 11:50 AM on October 23, 2005
I guess I'm reading it differently. To me, it comes off as "There are situations where women want sex more than men, situations where they want it equally, and situations where men want it more than women. This blog is about the third."
posted by Bugbread at 11:50 AM on October 23, 2005
Any explanation of sexual problems within marriage that blames one party (or, in this case, one gender) is always wrong. I'll summarise the article for you. "Our marriage had sexual problems. It was his fault. So I made him fix it. He did. Now we're happy.".
I've been married 25 years and there has been periods when each of us has gone off sex (which, ironically, increases the desire of the other person).There's no particular reason. It just happens.
The media don't help with ridiculous stories about people who "still make love five times a week and we've been married 25 years" (five times a year would be good going). That only makes people unhappy.
Pornography, romantic fiction and TV (not necessarily in that order) create unrealistic expectations in people that lead to dissappointment and unhappiness.
posted by bobbyelliott at 11:51 AM on October 23, 2005
I've been married 25 years and there has been periods when each of us has gone off sex (which, ironically, increases the desire of the other person).There's no particular reason. It just happens.
The media don't help with ridiculous stories about people who "still make love five times a week and we've been married 25 years" (five times a year would be good going). That only makes people unhappy.
Pornography, romantic fiction and TV (not necessarily in that order) create unrealistic expectations in people that lead to dissappointment and unhappiness.
posted by bobbyelliott at 11:51 AM on October 23, 2005
Shorter kablam: you and me baby ain't nothing but mammals.
Sorry. I've had that earworm since I had the terrible idea to mention it in the "worst song" askme thread.
After browsing the link, my considerate opinion is as follows: if you think you're going to save your relationship by going through the effort of reading pages and pages by a perfect stranger who thinks she can tell you how to save your relationship like she knows better, your relationship is not worth saving. Accept it and move on. Plenty more fish in the sea.
That's all, you can go now, $150 please. And don't forget to buy my book, where I tell you all how to get more sex from your wife and be the hero of your life and enjoy every moment of your short and, let's face it, utterly superfluous presence on this planet. First chapter: spend less time reading books on how to live your life.
posted by funambulist at 11:51 AM on October 23, 2005
Sorry. I've had that earworm since I had the terrible idea to mention it in the "worst song" askme thread.
After browsing the link, my considerate opinion is as follows: if you think you're going to save your relationship by going through the effort of reading pages and pages by a perfect stranger who thinks she can tell you how to save your relationship like she knows better, your relationship is not worth saving. Accept it and move on. Plenty more fish in the sea.
That's all, you can go now, $150 please. And don't forget to buy my book, where I tell you all how to get more sex from your wife and be the hero of your life and enjoy every moment of your short and, let's face it, utterly superfluous presence on this planet. First chapter: spend less time reading books on how to live your life.
posted by funambulist at 11:51 AM on October 23, 2005
Do men need sex more than women?
Throwing my two cents out here. But first, caveats:
1. I'm married, very happily so, for over six years.
2. I'm in my mid-30s.
3. With one exception, in every sexual relationship I've ever had, I have been the one with the lower sexual drive, either to a significant or a subtle degree.
4. I'm a normally-functioning guy, with the proper levels of sexual functioning and testosterone and whatnot.
People have different levels of sexual arousal, and that isn't about being a man or a woman -- it's about being a person, and we're all different biologically. The hangup seems to be that, when a woman wants SIGNIFICANTLY less sex than a man, it's considered "normal" (and the man's fault), and so gets talked about -- but when a man wants SIGNIFICANTLY less sex than a woman, it's "abnormal" (and the man's fault), and so doesn't get talked about. Those judgements are based on our society's sexual stereotypes more than anything else.
History buffs might be interested in reading up on the play "Lysistrada", the main premise of which is that a group of women withhold sex from their men until the men agree to stop going to war. If you read the play today, it seems straightforward and not particularly funny -- but back when it was written, society believed that women had the greater sex drive, and so the concept of women withholding sex to make men do something was absurd, ridiculous and funny.
So here's that two cents I was talking about:
If you have a somewhat lower sex drive than your partner, regardless of your sex, that's fine. However, if you have a much lower sex drive with this partner than you did with other recent partners, you should consider going to the doctor for a checkup, and you should also consider the possibility that you're not nearly as attracted to your current partner than partners in the past -- and that's worth serious consideration if you're going to, or are already, married.
posted by davejay at 12:11 PM on October 23, 2005
Throwing my two cents out here. But first, caveats:
1. I'm married, very happily so, for over six years.
2. I'm in my mid-30s.
3. With one exception, in every sexual relationship I've ever had, I have been the one with the lower sexual drive, either to a significant or a subtle degree.
4. I'm a normally-functioning guy, with the proper levels of sexual functioning and testosterone and whatnot.
People have different levels of sexual arousal, and that isn't about being a man or a woman -- it's about being a person, and we're all different biologically. The hangup seems to be that, when a woman wants SIGNIFICANTLY less sex than a man, it's considered "normal" (and the man's fault), and so gets talked about -- but when a man wants SIGNIFICANTLY less sex than a woman, it's "abnormal" (and the man's fault), and so doesn't get talked about. Those judgements are based on our society's sexual stereotypes more than anything else.
History buffs might be interested in reading up on the play "Lysistrada", the main premise of which is that a group of women withhold sex from their men until the men agree to stop going to war. If you read the play today, it seems straightforward and not particularly funny -- but back when it was written, society believed that women had the greater sex drive, and so the concept of women withholding sex to make men do something was absurd, ridiculous and funny.
So here's that two cents I was talking about:
If you have a somewhat lower sex drive than your partner, regardless of your sex, that's fine. However, if you have a much lower sex drive with this partner than you did with other recent partners, you should consider going to the doctor for a checkup, and you should also consider the possibility that you're not nearly as attracted to your current partner than partners in the past -- and that's worth serious consideration if you're going to, or are already, married.
posted by davejay at 12:11 PM on October 23, 2005
funambulist,
Did you just rip that off from Dilbert?
posted by Talanvor at 12:13 PM on October 23, 2005
Did you just rip that off from Dilbert?
posted by Talanvor at 12:13 PM on October 23, 2005
scody, she's already brushed aside that objection (which interestingly she assumes only a man would have):
So let's make a deal: when I use the terms "women" or "men" or "marriage" or any other large category, you will understand that I may not be talking about you or any other particular man or woman. ...And anyway, why should my little feeeeemale opinion matter to a Big Strong Man like you?
You'd have to be crazy not to take the advice coming from such an emotionally detached and totally non-passive-aggressive source, eh?
Talanvor: er, no, why?
posted by funambulist at 12:19 PM on October 23, 2005
So let's make a deal: when I use the terms "women" or "men" or "marriage" or any other large category, you will understand that I may not be talking about you or any other particular man or woman. ...And anyway, why should my little feeeeemale opinion matter to a Big Strong Man like you?
You'd have to be crazy not to take the advice coming from such an emotionally detached and totally non-passive-aggressive source, eh?
Talanvor: er, no, why?
posted by funambulist at 12:19 PM on October 23, 2005
funambulist : "scody, she's already brushed aside that objection (which interestingly she assumes only a man would have)"
Is it that she's assuming only a man would have it, or that the page is written with men as the target audience, and thereby assuming that the reader is a man?
(Man, it keeps coming off like I'm defending her, but I assure you it's coincidental)
posted by Bugbread at 12:34 PM on October 23, 2005
Is it that she's assuming only a man would have it, or that the page is written with men as the target audience, and thereby assuming that the reader is a man?
(Man, it keeps coming off like I'm defending her, but I assure you it's coincidental)
posted by Bugbread at 12:34 PM on October 23, 2005
I just remember a strip where Dogbert was writing a self-help book and the first chapter was to stop wasting time and money on stupid self help books.
posted by Talanvor at 12:37 PM on October 23, 2005
posted by Talanvor at 12:37 PM on October 23, 2005
Come on! And really, are women so disgusted when their husbands fart that they will not have sex with them? Admittedly, I am not married, but if my husband's body odor or gas start repelling me so much that I no longer want to bone him, I think it would my my responsibility to figure out why that's happening, not his responsibility to eat less broccoli.
posted by Uncle Glendinning at 9:52 AM PST on October 23 [!]
Well I sure as hell don't find farting attractive or sexy. Farting and then laughing about it or constantly talking about bodily function makes a man seem immature, teenageresque and frat-boyish which is a huge, huge turn off to me. Doing something like that and then being all lovey dovey would pretty much kill any desire I had, possibly for ever. Ugh.
posted by fshgrl at 1:03 PM on October 23, 2005
posted by Uncle Glendinning at 9:52 AM PST on October 23 [!]
Well I sure as hell don't find farting attractive or sexy. Farting and then laughing about it or constantly talking about bodily function makes a man seem immature, teenageresque and frat-boyish which is a huge, huge turn off to me. Doing something like that and then being all lovey dovey would pretty much kill any desire I had, possibly for ever. Ugh.
posted by fshgrl at 1:03 PM on October 23, 2005
Come on, idontlikewords- I can't take anything in that essay seriously, considering the guy is referring to his girlfriend as "Lying Whorebag".
the guy puts things in a way that doesn't help his credibility, but ...
1) think of all the couples you've known ... in how many of them did the woman make more than the man? ... is that because of sex discrimination in the workplace? ... or because many women don't want to be with men who make less than they do?
2) i work at a factory ... of all the people taking fmla's, intermittent or otherwise, the great majority of them are women ... which seems to back up his point about which sex has more absenteeism ... (and i'm not talking about taking time off to have kids, here)
3) i'm not sure that i buy the cartel idea ... but what i will say is that feminism has created a situation where women have been slowly freed from their traditional roles ... and men are still shackled to theirs ... men have given up a good part of their power in the last 100 years ... but what are they getting for it? ... some get better relationships and a world in which more people's talents are utilized ... but others really don't seem to be getting anything for it at all
i see people demanding equal rights all the time ... but i hardly ever see them demand equal responsibility
posted by pyramid termite at 1:17 PM on October 23, 2005
the guy puts things in a way that doesn't help his credibility, but ...
1) think of all the couples you've known ... in how many of them did the woman make more than the man? ... is that because of sex discrimination in the workplace? ... or because many women don't want to be with men who make less than they do?
2) i work at a factory ... of all the people taking fmla's, intermittent or otherwise, the great majority of them are women ... which seems to back up his point about which sex has more absenteeism ... (and i'm not talking about taking time off to have kids, here)
3) i'm not sure that i buy the cartel idea ... but what i will say is that feminism has created a situation where women have been slowly freed from their traditional roles ... and men are still shackled to theirs ... men have given up a good part of their power in the last 100 years ... but what are they getting for it? ... some get better relationships and a world in which more people's talents are utilized ... but others really don't seem to be getting anything for it at all
i see people demanding equal rights all the time ... but i hardly ever see them demand equal responsibility
posted by pyramid termite at 1:17 PM on October 23, 2005
I wish this were better written -- it veers between the overly specific (farting and smelly socks) and the bizarrely abstract (be a hero of your own life). True, it's just a blog, but then it's organized and presented as perhaps more than the sum of its parts.
That said, I think the perspective is valuable, even if it ultimately boils down to don't take your wife for granted and keep on courting her. No-surprise elements of any successful relationship.
posted by dhartung at 1:26 PM on October 23, 2005
That said, I think the perspective is valuable, even if it ultimately boils down to don't take your wife for granted and keep on courting her. No-surprise elements of any successful relationship.
posted by dhartung at 1:26 PM on October 23, 2005
["Dr" Phil]'s pretty vocally anti-spanking
I believe I used the phrase "notorious interest in spanking".
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
posted by meehawl at 2:02 PM on October 23, 2005
I believe I used the phrase "notorious interest in spanking".
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
posted by meehawl at 2:02 PM on October 23, 2005
it ultimately boils down to don't take your wife for granted and keep on courting her.
Or, to put it another way: "don't take your husband for granted and keep on fucking him".
It takes two to make a happy relationship.
posted by bobbyelliott at 2:12 PM on October 23, 2005
Or, to put it another way: "don't take your husband for granted and keep on fucking him".
It takes two to make a happy relationship.
posted by bobbyelliott at 2:12 PM on October 23, 2005
I have been married for two years and havent had sex in months. I think there is an underlying issue to our marriage but I am too impatient to figure it out. Were divorcing soon.
I think the lack of sex is typically indicative (or leading to) a bigger issue. If your not getting sex enough, you should take the only good advice in her "blog" and talk about it. Thats the only way to get anything resolved.
posted by subaruwrx at 2:46 PM on October 23, 2005
I think the lack of sex is typically indicative (or leading to) a bigger issue. If your not getting sex enough, you should take the only good advice in her "blog" and talk about it. Thats the only way to get anything resolved.
posted by subaruwrx at 2:46 PM on October 23, 2005
Talanvor: I just remember a strip where Dogbert was writing a self-help book and the first chapter was to stop wasting time and money on stupid self help books.
Heh, no, I had not seen that strip. But I guess "stop reading stupid self help books" is not a particularly eccentric view, after all, self help books are a love or hate thing, and there's many people who hate them.
posted by funambulist at 2:50 PM on October 23, 2005
Heh, no, I had not seen that strip. But I guess "stop reading stupid self help books" is not a particularly eccentric view, after all, self help books are a love or hate thing, and there's many people who hate them.
posted by funambulist at 2:50 PM on October 23, 2005
bugbread: Is it that she's assuming only a man would have it, or that the page is written with men as the target audience, and thereby assuming that the reader is a man?
Yes, that's true, but look at the way she brushes aside that little matter of over-generalisations. And the fact she assumes she's talking to a man (or rather, that she chooses to address men only) makes that last "And anyway, why should my little feeeeemale opinion matter to a Big Strong Man like you?" even more... I don't know. You name it. Taking the piss?
And her first chapter - to increase your chances with the other sex, wash your armpits, use deodorant and avoid farting in a woman's face. YOU DON'T SAY!
My god, think of the people that could be enlightened by this revelation but are still living in the smelly, farty darkness of forced abstinence because they didn't read her blog.
What she is assuming about her target readers there says a lot already.
(Man, it keeps coming off like I'm defending her, but I assure you it's coincidental)
What, you don't appreciate her revolutionary tips about hygiene?
posted by funambulist at 3:14 PM on October 23, 2005
Yes, that's true, but look at the way she brushes aside that little matter of over-generalisations. And the fact she assumes she's talking to a man (or rather, that she chooses to address men only) makes that last "And anyway, why should my little feeeeemale opinion matter to a Big Strong Man like you?" even more... I don't know. You name it. Taking the piss?
And her first chapter - to increase your chances with the other sex, wash your armpits, use deodorant and avoid farting in a woman's face. YOU DON'T SAY!
My god, think of the people that could be enlightened by this revelation but are still living in the smelly, farty darkness of forced abstinence because they didn't read her blog.
What she is assuming about her target readers there says a lot already.
(Man, it keeps coming off like I'm defending her, but I assure you it's coincidental)
What, you don't appreciate her revolutionary tips about hygiene?
posted by funambulist at 3:14 PM on October 23, 2005
funambulist : "What, you don't appreciate her revolutionary tips about hygiene?"
I have internalized them to the degree that, since my wife is with child and thus sexalation is a non-issue, I plan on letting my armpits go to seed and going home to fart in my wife's face as soon as I leave the office.
posted by Bugbread at 3:41 PM on October 23, 2005
I have internalized them to the degree that, since my wife is with child and thus sexalation is a non-issue, I plan on letting my armpits go to seed and going home to fart in my wife's face as soon as I leave the office.
posted by Bugbread at 3:41 PM on October 23, 2005
funambulist, stop trying to make me spill coffee on the keyboard. damnit.
But I agree. I wonder what kind of man she has met in her life, the poor girl. It is not that I have never been in the presence of women in a unfavorable situation (say, unbathed, unshaved and wrongly fed for days in a trip through wild areas), but I have never taken it lightly. And thinking about it, I don't even know someone who does. The fart thing then must be a joke. Or a way her husband found to tell her to keep her distance.
posted by nkyad at 4:09 PM on October 23, 2005
But I agree. I wonder what kind of man she has met in her life, the poor girl. It is not that I have never been in the presence of women in a unfavorable situation (say, unbathed, unshaved and wrongly fed for days in a trip through wild areas), but I have never taken it lightly. And thinking about it, I don't even know someone who does. The fart thing then must be a joke. Or a way her husband found to tell her to keep her distance.
posted by nkyad at 4:09 PM on October 23, 2005
Dr Phil : Relationships :: Mike Brown : Crisis management
posted by secret about box at 4:36 PM on October 23, 2005
posted by secret about box at 4:36 PM on October 23, 2005
I've defended this site in the past; yes, it does have some overgeneralizations, but some of the basic points are very sound:
-In a relationship, you can't change the other person. You can change yourself. If the situation isn't working, then it's up to you to change the situation or get out. (If the woman doesn't want to have sex, then she probably doesn't perceive the lack of sex as a problem, so...what's the incentive to change?)
-A lot of women are socialized not to be comfortable with thinking too much about their own desire, or talking about it. If they don't want sex, it may be for some amorphous reason that they're unable to nail down enough to articulate what would make things better.
I can say that it rang true for my own experiences in past relationships. And I will certainly take plenty of the blame upon myself, for bad communication skills, for staying with a guy who I didn't respect. It's not a perspective that I use to blame my S.O... but rather, to look with introspection at what was going on in my own mind.
posted by Jeanne at 5:42 PM on October 23, 2005
-In a relationship, you can't change the other person. You can change yourself. If the situation isn't working, then it's up to you to change the situation or get out. (If the woman doesn't want to have sex, then she probably doesn't perceive the lack of sex as a problem, so...what's the incentive to change?)
-A lot of women are socialized not to be comfortable with thinking too much about their own desire, or talking about it. If they don't want sex, it may be for some amorphous reason that they're unable to nail down enough to articulate what would make things better.
I can say that it rang true for my own experiences in past relationships. And I will certainly take plenty of the blame upon myself, for bad communication skills, for staying with a guy who I didn't respect. It's not a perspective that I use to blame my S.O... but rather, to look with introspection at what was going on in my own mind.
posted by Jeanne at 5:42 PM on October 23, 2005
I still think this woman has a really great point about the fact that most men don't really think about making themselves desirable to their wives. Most men seem to think that they don't need to: if you've slept with them once or a hundred times you are attracted to them and will remain that way indefinetely, which is untrue. She might still love you but not be attracted to you anymore sexually. Of course men feel that way too so it shouldn't be too hard to understand, but for some reason it seems to be.
posted by fshgrl at 7:02 PM on October 23, 2005 [1 favorite]
posted by fshgrl at 7:02 PM on October 23, 2005 [1 favorite]
A lot of women are socialized not to be comfortable with thinking too much about their own desire, or talking about it.
most men don't really think about making themselves desirable to their wives.
The problem with these generalisations for me is not just their being generalisations based on one's experiences, but that they are also based on the society and country you live in.
posted by funambulist at 6:07 AM on October 24, 2005
most men don't really think about making themselves desirable to their wives.
The problem with these generalisations for me is not just their being generalisations based on one's experiences, but that they are also based on the society and country you live in.
posted by funambulist at 6:07 AM on October 24, 2005
Complete agreement with everything davejay said.
And in regard to how differential sex drives usually get treated by pop culture therapists, I don't know the number of times I've heard that if a man wants more sex than his wife, doing anything to convince her to have more sex is a form of coercion, and she should never consider getting into the mood if she doesn't really feel like it. Rather, he should buy her flowers, do more chores around the house, etc, etc. (I'm sure all the things that she pictures her fantasy fireman doing -- not). But if the man has a lesser sex drive, it's definitely a problem with him.
posted by dreamsign at 10:03 AM on October 24, 2005
And in regard to how differential sex drives usually get treated by pop culture therapists, I don't know the number of times I've heard that if a man wants more sex than his wife, doing anything to convince her to have more sex is a form of coercion, and she should never consider getting into the mood if she doesn't really feel like it. Rather, he should buy her flowers, do more chores around the house, etc, etc. (I'm sure all the things that she pictures her fantasy fireman doing -- not). But if the man has a lesser sex drive, it's definitely a problem with him.
posted by dreamsign at 10:03 AM on October 24, 2005
Well I sure as hell don't find farting attractive or sexy. Farting and then laughing about it or constantly talking about bodily function makes a man seem immature, teenageresque and frat-boyish which is a huge, huge turn off to me.
Funny, that; I used to feel the same way about farting, but my wife -- who unapologetically farts and laughs her little butt off -- helped me to quickly discard that hangup, and now we're teaching our two kids how funny farting can be.
Or as I wrote in a song for her on our anniversary: "I'll tell the same random stories that make no sense/and I'll keep making you laugh with my flatulence".
heh
posted by davejay at 11:20 AM on October 24, 2005
Funny, that; I used to feel the same way about farting, but my wife -- who unapologetically farts and laughs her little butt off -- helped me to quickly discard that hangup, and now we're teaching our two kids how funny farting can be.
Or as I wrote in a song for her on our anniversary: "I'll tell the same random stories that make no sense/and I'll keep making you laugh with my flatulence".
heh
posted by davejay at 11:20 AM on October 24, 2005
Articles like this are the same sort of sexist nonsense that men used to churn out in the 1940s and 1950s. Can you imagine a man producing something like this now?
Unfortunately, we've came full circle and now women can write or say whatever they like and men are just meant to accept it.
If Julie Grey really thinks that her one-sided bleating about the problems in her marriage is going to resolve anything then she should contact a marriage guidance councellor ASAP.
posted by bobbyelliott at 3:05 PM on October 24, 2005
Unfortunately, we've came full circle and now women can write or say whatever they like and men are just meant to accept it.
If Julie Grey really thinks that her one-sided bleating about the problems in her marriage is going to resolve anything then she should contact a marriage guidance councellor ASAP.
posted by bobbyelliott at 3:05 PM on October 24, 2005
Funny, that; I used to feel the same way about farting, but my wife -- who unapologetically farts and laughs her little butt off -- helped me to quickly discard that hangup, and now we're teaching our two kids how funny farting can be.
Kinda sounds like our house, davejay...except our 2 children are the furry kind.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 7:52 PM on October 24, 2005
Kinda sounds like our house, davejay...except our 2 children are the furry kind.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 7:52 PM on October 24, 2005
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Are they all liars / unconsciously bastards / immature or something? Or is this whole women not wanting to sleep with their husbands thing not as common as I think it is?
posted by alexst at 8:38 AM on October 23, 2005