segway stock soars on late news

December 20, 2005 12:51 AM

So it actually happened. Not going anywhere tomorrow? The last time the MTA went on strike in New York was 1980. This time, one would hope there are plans already in place to cope with what will no doubt be an awful morning for millions, though the information seems dated already. Perhaps ths might be a good opportunity to share any tips and information about the situation. [newsfilter, of course]
posted by wakko (314 comments total)

good luck tomorrow (well, today), everybody.
posted by wakko at 12:52 AM on December 20, 2005

"Do you hear that Mr Anderson?"
"Uh... no, what?"
"That isn't the sound of inevitability"
posted by -harlequin- at 1:12 AM on December 20, 2005

HA-HA!
posted by well_balanced at 1:23 AM on December 20, 2005

Public transportation strikes are hellish in any situation, let alone one as big as New York. I echo wakko's sentiments -- good luck New Yorkers.
posted by spiderskull at 1:36 AM on December 20, 2005

so far, aside from negotiations working out quickly, there are two other ways the strike could end early: the international transit union, which objected to the strike, could go to federal court in an attempt to take over the local union (the one which struck). or, the mta could go to state court in an attempt to impose fines on the union (which they apparently have just done.)

there's also talk of metro north joining in the strike. which would suck a bunch.
posted by wakko at 1:42 AM on December 20, 2005

It sounds like Tuesday is going to be nightmarish for most New Yorkers. I bet the cabbies will be raking in the dough.
posted by Mijo Bijo at 2:03 AM on December 20, 2005

I was up until 2 AM because of this thrying to figure out whther or not my final would be on or cancelled. Part of me is floored this all went through.

STFU, well_balanced.
posted by piratebowling at 2:15 AM on December 20, 2005

Mijo Bijo, the city has modified the taxi fare structure, so unless riders are particularly giving with their tips, I doubt the taxi drivers will be doing as well as usual. Link.
posted by jba at 2:18 AM on December 20, 2005

jba: $10 within a zone, $5 each additional, with the right to pick up multiple fares. I think they'll do okay.
posted by I Love Tacos at 2:21 AM on December 20, 2005

Here's a tip: move
posted by cellphone at 2:22 AM on December 20, 2005

Why does the AP story quote two commuters not sympathetic to the union and none sympathetic?
posted by gramschmidt at 2:25 AM on December 20, 2005

I Love Tacos: yeah, I guess with the multi-fare thing they could do better. Not quite sure how that'd work however. Are they going to stop and pick up more people even if someone is riding already?

Cellphone: Not helpful.
posted by jba at 2:29 AM on December 20, 2005

gramschmidt: possibly because it's hard to find anyone in the city sympathetic to the union? They have a great deal from the MTA right now (highest paid transit workers in the nation), and were offered a compound raise of over ten percent over the next 3 years in a time when the MTA is planning to run masssive budget deficits. Existing benefits are not being cut or even altered, and yet they are willing to hurt the city's most vulnerable (the working poor and middle class) who rely on them to get to work every day because future workers might have to pay a portion of their benefits and retire later like pretty much everyone else in the private sector. It's hard to feel much sympathy for them at the moment.
posted by jba at 2:37 AM on December 20, 2005

jba: They also asked the workers to pay health costs, wanted to kill the pensions and wanted to retroactively jack up the retirement age, all at a time when the MTA is running a billion dollar surplus.
posted by I Love Tacos at 2:40 AM on December 20, 2005

To be more accurate, I should've said kill pensions as a benefit to new hires.
posted by I Love Tacos at 2:40 AM on December 20, 2005

the wnbc article seems to have changed... best quote that was in it, now taken out:

"We have to get the Coke to the people," Padilla said. "Just because there is a strike, people don't stop drinking coke."

Down with Strikes! drink Coke!
posted by twistedonion at 2:41 AM on December 20, 2005

Oh, and being the highest paid transit workers isn't that impressive. Average wage is 50-something. I wouldn't want to raise a family on that, especially in or around New York.
posted by I Love Tacos at 2:41 AM on December 20, 2005

I wanted to start this thread myself just so I could complain about the union. They have the city and state by the short hairs, I hope they all get fired.
posted by mert at 2:44 AM on December 20, 2005

I support strikes. But not ones that are going to make my commute a living hell. Boo on the TWU! Er, I mean, good luck to the little guy. (By which I mean the employees, not the union. Two days pay for every day of striking is a tough fine.)
posted by Plutor at 2:45 AM on December 20, 2005

I must say though, I'll be happy when New York gets DC-style computer controlled subways.

Get rid of pesky health care costs nicely.
posted by I Love Tacos at 2:45 AM on December 20, 2005

"Just because there is a strike, people don't stop drinking coke."

twistedonion, I read that and didn't know what to make of it. I've never been to NYC, but doesn't the coke arrive on trucks (of some size or other)? It put this image in my mind of hand trucks full of cases of coke on the subways and buses of NYC.
posted by Mijo Bijo at 2:45 AM on December 20, 2005

I hope they all get fired.

I hope they make your life a misery. People don't strike for a day off, especially when they will get fined 2 days for every day they strike.

America: where little men don't give a shit about other little men, they drink coke instead.
posted by twistedonion at 2:49 AM on December 20, 2005

I Love Tacos: That would only affect new workers, they were not touching the benefits of existing workers. Around the nation businesses are doing all of those things in order to sustain retirement and pension plans. People are living longer than ever, and the old pension plans with retirement ages at 50 or 55 no longer make sense. With that all said, the last proposal to the TWU had no change in the retirement age (per the NYT), and they still rejected it - as far as i can tell, strictly on salary grounds.

With regards to the "billion dollar surplus", it's all gone already. The MTA has been continually financing itself with heavily tail loaded long term debt, much of which begins to come around in the next few years. Next year the MTA deficit will be at least $2.5 billion.
posted by jba at 2:51 AM on December 20, 2005

It's supposed to make your life a living hell. At root, a strike is a reminder of how essential these employees are to the functioning of the city. It sucks for a LOT of people, most of whom are poor.

How it is supposed to work,in theory, is that the inconvenienced people are supposed to put pressure on tto acehe government to accede to the strikers' demands. In addition, other unions can increase the pressure by going on strike too, in support.

Basic services shut down because working people make the city work. Subway workers are essential, and they are on strike because a two-tier pensioning system is being put into place in the attempt to encourage two classes of workers within the union, and to weaken the union over time.

Union strike actions are meant to encourage collective action by others to hasten their resolution.

I am very sorry about all of the people (mostly poor) who are inconvenienced by this.
posted by By The Grace of God at 2:51 AM on December 20, 2005

jba: Massive wealth redistribution is necessary in order to stave off the upcoming crisis of a bunch of sick, old Americans. Yay on the TWU for putting the pensions debate front and center.
posted by By The Grace of God at 2:53 AM on December 20, 2005

twistedonion, I read that and didn't know what to make of it.

First part of the quote might put it into context:

"Jose Padilla, 34, said he and fellow Coca-Cola employees are meeting at 4 a.m. to come up with a plan to put more workers in trucks to ensure their product gets delivered in the case of a strike."

I think the workers were going in early to make sure those that couldn't get to work wouldn't affect the deliveries of the holy juice.
posted by twistedonion at 2:54 AM on December 20, 2005

supposed to put pressure on the government is of course how that should read.
posted by By The Grace of God at 2:55 AM on December 20, 2005

jba: thanks for using bold tags to point out something that I'd already corrected, in a previous post. It did a great job of confirming that you're more interested in spewing your viewpoint than reading or considering any other.
posted by I Love Tacos at 3:00 AM on December 20, 2005

For the record, here's a version with the Coke quote.
posted by gramschmidt at 3:04 AM on December 20, 2005

I Love Tacos: Sorry, i missed your update in among a few others that came up on preview. Also, sorry that you feel the need to attack me personally rather than discuss the issue at hand. Good luck to you.
posted by jba at 3:08 AM on December 20, 2005

man channel 4 (nbc) made a guy ride the subway all night till they shut down. now he's stuck in williamsburg. that's mean.
posted by wakko at 3:11 AM on December 20, 2005

I have reservations at a hot restaurant I've been looking forward to for, like, two months tonight. Guess I'll have to cancel.

I'm all for a union's right to strike, but here's to hoping they get a good deal worked out sooner rather than later.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:13 AM on December 20, 2005 [1 favorite]

If this looks weird now:



...imagine how today's pictures are gonna look in 25 years.
posted by wakko at 3:18 AM on December 20, 2005

wakko: do you have any more about the ITU possibly taking over the TWU? I haven't seen anything (or been able to find anything) about that potential. thx.
posted by jba at 3:19 AM on December 20, 2005

it was on nbc4 earlier this morning. i'll try and dig something up.
posted by wakko at 3:21 AM on December 20, 2005

The only thing I can be thankful for is my new job- I'm now working for an understanding boss in a job I can telecommute, as opposed to my old boss, who I hear is still expecting people to show up to work, even though a lot of them have no way to do so, not to mention that all of our shipments are shut down, plus I think this shut downs UPS/FedEx service in Manhattan, right?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:21 AM on December 20, 2005 [1 favorite]

A common tactic by anti-union groups and individuals in these cases is to claim that the strikers in question are "among the highest paid transit workers in the country". I can't guarantee that we'll encounter that exact wording tomorrow, but we will hear something approximating that.

What I find interesting is the contempt (almost classist in nature) implicit in such a phrase: "You transit workers do a job that I consider despicable, replaceable, meaningless, throwaway and utterly beneath me, but you're paid more than nothing for doing this job! How can you possibly be dissatisfied! On some scale I haven't identified and by some metric that may or may not be valid to the issues over which you're striking, you're among the highest paid transit workers in the nation! Unionism is terrorism! Up is down!"
posted by gramschmidt at 3:24 AM on December 20, 2005

the daily news has some coverage of the international TWU's opinion (they voted against the strike.) no mention of a possible takeover (nbc only mentioned it as a possibility).
posted by wakko at 3:27 AM on December 20, 2005

jba: get off the cross, we need the wood for the fire.
posted by I Love Tacos at 3:27 AM on December 20, 2005

From the NYT: "Earlier yesterday, Mr. Toussaint hinted at some movement in the talks at the Grand Hyatt hotel, saying that the union would reduce its wage demands to 6 percent a year, from 8 percent a year, if the authority promised to reduce the number of disciplinary actions brought against transit workers."

This is the kind of thing that confuses me about the public sector and/or unions (take your pick). Ignoring the fact that 8% non-merit raises seem unjustified when inflation is less than half that, how can the number of disciplinary actions be negotiated in advance? Surely the number of disciplinary actions should correspond to the number of problems that occur in the future? How can it be known how many will occur? In what universe does this kind of demand make sense?
posted by blue mustard at 3:28 AM on December 20, 2005

Also from NYT:

The union's executive board voted 28 to 10, with 5 members abstaining, to start the strike, but Michael T. O'Brien, the president of the Transport Workers Union of America, Local 100's parent union, warned the board that he could not support a strike because he believed the authority's most recent offer represented real progress.

posted by fet at 3:34 AM on December 20, 2005

blue mustard: a crazy universe! This is the crap that makes me not at all sympathetic to unions. I work as a software developer. As such, I have never been offered a pension. I went several years without ANY raises, never mind cost-of-living raises. Yet these guys are complaining about getting a raise that is DOUBLE that of inflation, and trying to negotiate a set-limit on disciplinary actions? What happens when the limit of disciplinary actions is reached? The employees can effectively do jack-shit on the job with no repercussions at all. How the hell does THAT work?
posted by antifuse at 3:36 AM on December 20, 2005

Cool, thanks wakko.
posted by jba at 3:36 AM on December 20, 2005

Biased source, so take it with a grain of salt (particularly the conclusions), but this is an excellent rundown of the fiscal situation of the MTA. Worth a read: How to Save the Subways—Before It’s Too Late
posted by jba at 3:40 AM on December 20, 2005

Any reasonable person could see that there should be an available middle ground here. I've seen no publicly available evidence that either side has made serious concessions towards reaching that middle.

And to the strike haters, like it or not, this is a right of the free market. I support their right to strike and the MTAs right to fire them, and put together funding for computer-controlled trains.

The fact that you make less money than them, or that you don't have a pension is irrelevant.
posted by I Love Tacos at 3:41 AM on December 20, 2005

I work as a software developer. As such, I have never been offered a pension. I went several years without ANY raises, never mind cost-of-living raises.

Software Developer - that's a bit different from being a blue collar worker imho. You are probably paid enough to cover your own pension.

I'm also not a member of any union, but more power to them, seriously. You worked several years without raises - that's probably because you don't have a Union. Why bitch about people getting together and trying to make their working conditions as best as possible?
posted by twistedonion at 3:42 AM on December 20, 2005

to be fair, the MTA also wanted to raise the retirement age (first for everyone, then later for new hires only) from 55 to 62. granted, retiring at 62 is still pretty sweet for most people these days, but it could still be seen as a dick move on their part. also it seems as though each side has capitulated somewhat and been willing to compromise already.
posted by wakko at 3:44 AM on December 20, 2005

Yea, but their final offer kept the retirement age at 55, as long as new workers contributed 6% for 10 years to the plan. What more was the TWU looking for that the MTA didn't provide?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:47 AM on December 20, 2005 [1 favorite]

also it seems as though each side has capitulated somewhat and been willing to compromise already.

I'm not sure I agree. The original positions of the union and the MTA were miles apart, largely because these negotiations always start with the worst possible offer, not the legitimately desired result.

It seems that all they've done so far is to throw away the fake demands, and get deadlocked at the real ones.
posted by I Love Tacos at 3:50 AM on December 20, 2005

I'm curious, does anybody have information on previous compensation information for MTA employees?

I've seen reference that some of the bus routes were without contract for 33 months, which strongly implies that at least some employees have gone 3 years without any raises at all.
posted by I Love Tacos at 3:53 AM on December 20, 2005

Why bitch about people getting together and trying to make their working conditions as best as possible?

You nailed it earlier, TO:

America: where little men don't give a shit about other little men, they drink coke instead.

Resentment toward the other is something that is cultivated and encouraged in this country. It keeps the Man(tm) in power. I think there are valid points on both sides, and haven't decided for myself yet where my sympathies lie, but it is discouraging that so many would come with over simplified arguments just so they can justify their axe-grinding versus organized labor.

get off the cross, we need the wood for the fire.

We're burning crosses now? Man, this debate is out of hand already.
posted by psmealey at 4:09 AM on December 20, 2005

only some of those that work forces do that.
posted by wakko at 4:16 AM on December 20, 2005

Cellphone: Not helpful.
posted by jba at 4:29 AM CST on December 20 [!]

So what? You guys are acting like this is some fucking disaster, when really you've made the choice to live in a place where public transportation has the city by the balls.
posted by cellphone at 4:19 AM on December 20, 2005

granted, retiring at 62 is still pretty sweet for most people these days

It's a great deal for guys working in office buildings. It's not so great for guys who have to work outdoors in trainyards in the middle of winter and underground in the middle of summer. People would be outraged if they said cops or firemen had to have their retirement age raised by seven years.

I wanted to start this thread myself just so I could complain about the union. They have the city and state by the short hairs, I hope they all get fired.

Part of me hopes they do too just so New York will be crippled for years waiting to train 30,000 new workers to meet federal regulations because it was necessary to give you a moment of smug satisfaction, you fucking idiot.

I must say though, I'll be happy when New York gets DC-style computer controlled subways. Get rid of pesky health care costs nicely.

I actually live in DC, and every train I've ridden on has a human operator. Not to mention humans at the booth. And humans running security. And unless you expect either robots or genetically-modified monkeys to be repairing the trains anytime soon, I'm gonna take a wild guess and say humans repair the trains in DC too. If you seriously think A. something like that will come anytime soon, or B. no train operators means no human Metro workforce, you have a very vague understanding of infrastructure.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 4:20 AM on December 20, 2005

Yea, but their final offer kept the retirement age at 55, as long as new workers contributed 6% for 10 years to the plan. What more was the TWU looking for that the MTA didn't provide?

A guaranteed pay raise of 3% for three years combined with a guaranteed pay cut of 6% for ten? And you'd take that?
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 4:23 AM on December 20, 2005

You guys are acting like this is some fucking disaster, when really you've made the choice to live in a place where public transportation has the city by the balls.

Wow what a myopic point of view.
posted by wakko at 4:24 AM on December 20, 2005

This is pretty interesting. It features profiteers, creeps, and a whole slew of nice people.

The generousity of some people is only due to the fact you need 4 people in a vehicle to get over a bridge into Manhattan.
posted by Mijo Bijo at 4:24 AM on December 20, 2005

I have never been offered a pension. I went several years without ANY raises, never mind cost-of-living raises.

Sounds like you should consider joining a union. You can light a candle, or sit in the dark and criticize those who are doing something to improve their own situation.
posted by grouse at 4:36 AM on December 20, 2005

You know what's fun about New York? The abject chaos. Day-to-day, the city hangs by the thinnest of threads, and every night I go to sleep thinking, "Holy shit, New York made it through another day." Then shit like this happens and you get to set up a lawn chair and watch the fireworks. Fun.
posted by ChasFile at 4:45 AM on December 20, 2005

Well, this means I get to work from home today when I normally wouldn't, so that's nice. But yeah, it's going to be madness in the city until this is over. And somehow we have to get the family and the Christmas presents to Newark on Thursday... I'm trying not to think about that too hard right now.

I cannot believe that it is illegal for transit workers to strike in NYC, by the way. Jesus Christ, what century is this? I support them for that reason alone, never mind the admittedly two-sided ins-and-outs of their actual reasons for striking. Any capitalist motherfucker tells me it's not legal for me to strike and I'm OUT, brothers, OUT.
posted by Decani at 4:46 AM on December 20, 2005

I have never been offered a pension. I went several years without ANY raises, never mind cost-of-living raises.

It always saddens me how often I hear this pathetic sort of mantra in the US - usually following criticism of people who actually have the balls to fight for such things. Oh wait, that's commie talk, right? And we don't do that in America. We just take lousy holiday allowances along with the exploitative shit from management, and then brag about how many hours of unpaid overtime we worked last week.

Sad.
posted by Decani at 4:49 AM on December 20, 2005

Nobody strikes for the hell of it. A favorite tactic of mgt is to force a bullshit issue and refuse to negotiate. Most workers won't strike if they are on the thin end of things to start with. So the upshot is mgt can screw the workers or break the union by forcing them into a strike. A sure sign of this tactic is mgt accusing the workers of planning a strike early in negotiations.
posted by warbaby at 4:55 AM on December 20, 2005

Cellphone, when the armageddon comes to this country and we finally run out of oil, I'm gonna leisurely strolling through my ped-friendly neighborhood in the city and I'll be LAUGHING MY FREAKING ASS OFF, thinking of you, starving and vehicleless in your forgotten Minnesotan hovel. No one likes you, dyhot Junior.

In the meantime, if any of you other nice people could be harness the power of the internet to find out whether the Roosevelt Island Tram is permitting bicycles on it, I'd be EVER SO GRATEFUL. Local media has been fairly abject at actual practical useful info like this, and I have to hit the streets. Thanks!
posted by DenOfSizer at 4:56 AM on December 20, 2005

DenOfSizer - give the Tram Hotline a call? [phone]. Given that they're running a "rush hour schedule", they might allow it but you'll probably get cursed out by your fellow trammers - and my impression is that a lot of people crashed on RI last night to grab the tram.
posted by Remy at 5:01 AM on December 20, 2005

Thanks, Remy. Hotline's most unspecific on this point but yours is the kind of info I'm looking for!
posted by DenOfSizer at 5:05 AM on December 20, 2005

So what? You guys are acting like this is some fucking disaster, when really you've made the choice to live in a place where public transportation has the city by the balls.

You know what? Fuck you. At least New Yorkers aren't all individually clogging the 405 freeway with dipshit SUVs and choking on their own exhaust. What world do you live in? One where everyone bikes to work through streets covered with sleet and ice?
posted by NucleophilicAttack at 5:05 AM on December 20, 2005

It's hard to take the MTA's financial self-assessment seriously. The last time they managed to lobby for a raise in fare prices, it was later found out that they had hidden hundreds of millions of dollars in cash assets from their balance sheet in order to be able to plead poverty.

The MTA is reaping what it sowed. cf. "The boy who cried wolf."
posted by clevershark at 5:12 AM on December 20, 2005

So what? You guys are acting like this is some fucking disaster, when really you've made the choice to live in a place where public transportation has the city by the balls.

I'm sure people will remember to point and laugh at cellphone when gas starts hitting the 4 to 5 dollar a gallon range.
posted by clevershark at 5:13 AM on December 20, 2005

That would only affect new workers, they were not touching the benefits of existing workers.

Back in '92 my entering cohort was hired on a shittier contract than the existing employees, and they went on strike for what I thought at the time was "for us".

Later, with more experience to how the world actually works, I realized they were striking more for them, since the existence of cheaper employees in the company means the people getting a better deal will soon experience a pressure gradient from management to leave the company... shittier schedules, etc.

Around the nation businesses are doing all of those things in order to sustain retirement and pension plans. People are living longer than ever

not ~that~ significantly. According to SS, the life expectancy at age 65 has risen from 12.7 more years to 15.3 more years, 1940 to 1990:

1940 12.7
1950 13.1
1960 13.2
1970 13.8
1980 14.6
1990 15.3
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 5:15 AM on December 20, 2005

yay. i get to work from home today.
posted by Stynxno at 5:18 AM on December 20, 2005

Heywood, both are good points. I suppose the latter is more the baby boomer effect (a large portion of the work force retiring at once) than the longer life expectancy.
posted by jba at 5:22 AM on December 20, 2005

Hopefully, they'll wrap it up in a couple of days. Since I live in Queens and work in lower Manhattan (and have no car or coworkers with a car in the area), I'm stranded today. I look at it as an unplanned day off, and like I said, hopefully it won't last long. The Mrs. got a ride to the Bronx from a co-worker.

I'm sympathetic to most of the Transit Workers demands, since I'v done some labor organizing myself, but I'd be lying if I said this wasn't a major pain in the butt. Negotiate something will you?
posted by jonmc at 5:26 AM on December 20, 2005

Why bitch about people getting together and trying to make their working conditions as best as possible?

In general there is very little bitching about people improving their working conditions, until the time that said people decide to walk out and use their customers as leverage against their bosses. At that point, I think it's normal for the customers (as well as bystanders and nattering nabobs) to jump on a pedestal and bitch a bit.

I can understand why those without health insurance or pensions who are stranded without work today might wonder in a bitchy kind of way why they are being forced to sacrifice so that transit workers can ignore increases in health care and pension costs. As for everyone else, who may not be stranded, maybe they're bitching to stick up for those little guys who are stranded because of an extortionate, illegal strike. Or maybe they're bitchy taxpayers who are afraid of being forced to pick up the tab if the transit system goes bust in ten years (just like we're now picking up the tab for the benefits won by unions in the steel, airline, and automotive industries...). Or maybe they just like to bitch.
posted by blue mustard at 5:27 AM on December 20, 2005

Heywood Mogroot : "Later, with more experience to how the world actually works, I realized they were striking more for them, since the existence of cheaper employees in the company means the people getting a better deal will soon experience a pressure gradient from management to leave the company"

Should it be that they were striking for both you and them? Obviously they weren't doing it for you personally, as they probably didn't even know you (as you were a new employee). But it looks like they were clearly fighting for the overall quality of the job itself, not necessarily for any particular person.
posted by nkyad at 5:29 AM on December 20, 2005

I actually live in DC, and every train ...

My understanding was that the operators on DC Metro trains don't actually operate the train, but rather just open/close doors, and call out stops.

I'm not suggesting that an entire subway system will magically run itself, but if we can arrange a future system with fewer (not zero) humans involved, we can also afford to pay those people a decent wage.
posted by I Love Tacos at 5:30 AM on December 20, 2005

Well, I just walked the 30 blocks to school carrying my luggage.

Not a free cab in sight.

I actually was offered a ride by some friendly strangers, however they were going the other way.

I hope the traffic clears up by lunch, I got to get to LaGuardia somehow...
posted by toftflin at 5:41 AM on December 20, 2005

I Love Tacos, didn't they already try to get rid of all the people working in ticket booths/stations and everyone freaked out and demanded they be brought back?
posted by jamesonandwater at 5:43 AM on December 20, 2005

I feel your pain, toftflin. My final was cancelled, but I still have to make it to JFK (from Astoria) today.
posted by piratebowling at 5:43 AM on December 20, 2005

Good for them! The MTA had ridiculous demands, were caught with 2 sets of books in 02, had enough for Holiday Discounts, and are running a giant surplus. Now that it's actually happened, they'll be forced to get real and negotiate in earnest.

And considering that the MTA envisions totally humanless trains, a totally humanless purchasing situation (no token clerks and only machines), I'm glad the union took a stand--it's way past time.

And complaining about your own work situation does not in any way make it wrong for the union workers to take action. When it comes to work and bosses and wages and benefits, strength comes from collective power, so you can get a better deal. People should be taking a lesson from the subway workers.
posted by amberglow at 5:48 AM on December 20, 2005

And complaining about your own work situation does not in any way make it wrong for the union workers to take action

Agreed. But we still gotta air our frustrations.
posted by jonmc at 5:50 AM on December 20, 2005

(oh, per the title, i actually saw someone using a segway up 10th ave yesterday morning--the first time in ages i've seen one here)
posted by amberglow at 5:50 AM on December 20, 2005

Yeah that MTA suplus should definitely be poured into the coffers of the striking workers instead of building the god damn 2nd Ave line and the 7 extension.

Ugh.
posted by fet at 5:53 AM on December 20, 2005

This is the crap that makes me not at all sympathetic to unions. I work as a software developer. As such, I have never been offered a pension. I went several years without ANY raises...

Then why don't you organize? Really. If unionized workers have it so good, why not organize a white-collar union where you work?

I love public transport and I support the workers, but I do wish there were better competiton built into the system to help drive system improvements. If it's possible with telephones, it's possible with buses and trains and subways and taxis.

Bus companies could collectively (with the city) work out a single route system and then bid to get the rights to service slots in that route system. There could be two or three or more bus companies running over the same streets offering different levels of service (maybe nicer buses on one system, cheaper fares on another, armed guards on another) but all using the same fare card and making the same stops. And labor (dis)agreements could be worked out per company.
posted by pracowity at 5:56 AM on December 20, 2005

I Love Tacos: people *hate* public transport without guards or ticket office staff or whatever. They see them as giving them a sense of security, and as a source of advice.

Two British examples, but I'm sure the same applies in the US: (1) a report on the unpopularity of unstaffed railway stations; and (2) the furore in south-east England about plans to reduce opening hours (not close) ticket offices at some smaller stations.
posted by athenian at 6:01 AM on December 20, 2005

Here's a tip: move
posted by cellphone

No.
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:02 AM on December 20, 2005

I was listening to the radio this morning, thinking I can take my time because today I work from the other side of the room, a walking commute for me, and an interview with Ed Koch comes on. He's blathering on and displaying a repulsive amount of venom as he says "you have CRUSH them" he repeats the word "crush" and goes on about making them (the transit workers) feel pain. And I sit here just wondering WTF? Are we moving more and more to a country where we work more, have cost of living jump, have work benefits trimmed, government benefits cut back, and we are still supposed to sympathize with the people at the top so much that we want to crush people? Fuck you, Koch.
posted by kingfisher, his musclebound cat at 6:02 AM on December 20, 2005

Does anyone know how easy/hard it is to get a cab this morning? I'm wondering if I should just bundle up and ride my bike.
posted by splatta at 6:03 AM on December 20, 2005

pracowity: our streets are crowded enough--adding multiple buses competing on the same routes as existing ones would create permanent gridlock.

Koch was a giant ass during the last strike (it was during his time in office).

(sidenote: the trend of women wearing sneakers with suits to work started during our last strike in 80)
posted by amberglow at 6:05 AM on December 20, 2005

splatta, check out craigslist.
posted by kingfisher, his musclebound cat at 6:06 AM on December 20, 2005

Cellphone, here's a tip:

Go fuck yourself. Hard.
posted by fungible at 6:06 AM on December 20, 2005

kingfisher, Koch was mayor during the last transit strike, so I imagine he still has some leftover issues, since he probably had the transit workers coming at him from one direction and the commuters from the other. I imagine that would make a men somewhat testy. Not that he right or anything, but besides he's not mayor anymore.

Also, wouldn't it have been a smarter move to do this before the election? Bloomie and co. would've been scrambling to meet their demands just to avoid the bad publicity.
posted by jonmc at 6:07 AM on December 20, 2005

BTW, I would love to see some smart answers to my related askmetafilter thread: does the strike really cost the city $400 million a day. Is this a violation of some rule? Oh well. I don't know economics, think this is fishy, and would love some solid thought on this.
posted by kingfisher, his musclebound cat at 6:08 AM on December 20, 2005

I was listening to the radio this morning, thinking I can take my time because today I work from the other side of the room, a walking commute for me, and an interview with Ed Koch comes on. He's blathering on and displaying a repulsive amount of venom as he says "you have CRUSH them" he repeats the word "crush" and goes on about making them (the transit workers) feel pain. And I sit here just wondering WTF? Are we moving more and more to a country where we work more, have cost of living jump, have work benefits trimmed, government benefits cut back, and we are still supposed to sympathize with the people at the top so much that we want to crush people? Fuck you, Koch.

Actually this has been a curiosity for me: can any local New Yorkers tell me if they actually know the exact moment Ed Koch completely lost his mind? He seemed okay in 1999 or so when I first started going to NYU; by the time I left, his marbles were inarguably absent.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 6:09 AM on December 20, 2005

He may be getting a mite zedraddled, I think. He's gotta be pushing 80. But, indeed, back when I was young, even when I disagreed with him, he still seemed to be of this earth.
posted by jonmc at 6:11 AM on December 20, 2005

does the strike really cost the city $400 million a day

I find it interesting that the anti-union rants enjoy going back and forth over who they're pretending to defend. In one breath this is a strike that's killing business, ruining productivity, costing millions, etc. And then five minutes later the same guys are mentioning how white-collar folks are just able to work from home, and it's the poor minorities who are getting screwed.

The demagoguery from the right-wing media in New York is abhorrent. It's the most glaring sign that the MTA and Bloomberg started prepping to launch a PR war long before they decided to offer a fair contract.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 6:12 AM on December 20, 2005

I think it was after he played Grampa on the Munsters.
posted by splatta at 6:12 AM on December 20, 2005

*applause*
posted by jonmc at 6:12 AM on December 20, 2005

It's a bit of a giggle seeing that so many seem to think that the strike is aimed at everything and all but the strikers' conditions:

-How am I going to get to MY job today?
-How will I transport MY things from A to B?
-How could YOU do this to ME?


And the biggest giggle is how those questions answer themselves so well.
posted by psychomedia at 6:14 AM on December 20, 2005

I think it was after he played Grampa on the Munsters.

Wrong politician.
posted by kingfisher, his musclebound cat at 6:14 AM on December 20, 2005

And then five minutes later the same guys are mentioning how white-collar folks are just able to work from home, and it's the poor minorities who are getting screwed.

Well, as a database clerk, I'm technically "white-collar," (although I make shit, by NYC standards), but I work with actual physical products for my data, so I can't work from home, and my office is roughly 50% non-white.

Just to monkeywrench that theory.
posted by jonmc at 6:15 AM on December 20, 2005

Also, wouldn't it have been a smarter move to do this before the election? Bloomie and co. would've been scrambling to meet their demands just to avoid the bad publicity.

The contract just expired last Thursday night.
posted by Remy at 6:15 AM on December 20, 2005

Fuck pensions. Aren't they the reason why every major american company from airlines to auto manufacturers are having to fire thousands of workers now?

I don't get a pension. I have to get an IRA like everyone else. If I don't save enough money for when I'm an old geezer, that's my own dumb fault.

Healthcare, on the other hand is a different matter. That, IMHO, should be paid for by the government. Healthcare costs are another reason why the big companies are having to fire people in the thousands.
posted by Afroblanco at 6:16 AM on December 20, 2005

psychomedia: no offense, but gimme a fucking break. We have to live here, we're entitled to care about how the strike affects our lives.

And the biggest giggle is how those questions answer themselves so well.

Well, if you consider a long-assed walk from Northern Astoria all the way to the Holland Tunnel in the freezing cold, an easy answer, I don't know what to tell you.
posted by jonmc at 6:17 AM on December 20, 2005

They have the city and state by the short hairs, I hope they all get fired. - mert

Because then your transit system would be entirely without qualified and experienced people. So having hundreds of brand new people running the joint would certainly make the system more effecient and pleasant for you! Ugh. What an incredibly selfish and short sighted statement.

if we can arrange a future system with fewer (not zero) humans involved, we can also afford to pay those people a decent wage. - I Love Tacos

But then thier jobs will be less skilled, and people will be up in arms that those no-brainer jobs are too well paid.
posted by raedyn at 6:18 AM on December 20, 2005

Just to monkeywrench that theory.

I'm addressing the rhetoric, not the practicality. Everyone knows regardless of what's being said the strike is crippling New York's work force, white- and blue-collar. That's the point of the strike. My point is the Daily News and others are desperate to play each side against the other and get both to blame the TWU.

I'm amazed how many New Yorkers are turning to the paper that locked out its own workers in a strike as the source of unbiased information.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 6:18 AM on December 20, 2005

The contract just expired last Thursday night.

Still, wouldn't it have been smart, strategically speaking, to have made a lot of noise during the election, that the candidates would've had to address to avoid looking bad and losing votes?
posted by jonmc at 6:19 AM on December 20, 2005

Heywood Mogroot: According to SS, the life expectancy at age 65 has risen from 12.7 more years to 15.3 more years, 1940 to 1990.

You're overlooking a rather important point: It's true that life expectancy at 65 has "only" gone up by 25% (which is actually pretty significant from an economic standpoint) but a lot fewer people lived to 65 in the first place until relatively recently. You have to look at life expectancy at 18 or so, not life expectancy at 65.
posted by Justinian at 6:19 AM on December 20, 2005

"The idea that a motorman has to scramble to find a place to urinate on a busy day is not something most of us face on the job."
posted by amberglow at 6:20 AM on December 20, 2005

My point is the Daily News and others are desperate to play each side against the other and get both to blame the TWU.

True enough. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit irked at both the TWU and the MTA. But I'll stipulate that's mainly because of the aggravation they're causing me.
posted by jonmc at 6:21 AM on December 20, 2005

XQUZYPHYR: You have to admit Toussaint's rhetoric was pretty inflammatory, though... it never sounded like TWU was going to make a deal.
posted by fet at 6:21 AM on December 20, 2005

"The idea that a motorman has to scramble to find a place to urinate on a busy day is not something most of us face on the job."

He's never worked in a factory or at a machine, where you're pretty much stuck standing on one leg until a relief worker comes for your break. Eventually your body trains itself, oddly. I speak from experience. Not that it negates the workers complaints, just illustrating that it happens elsewhere, too.
posted by jonmc at 6:23 AM on December 20, 2005

adding multiple buses competing on the same routes as existing ones would create permanent gridlock.

Adding multiple buses competing on the same routes AND taking 10 or 20 cars out of the system (by pricing them out of it) for every bus added would prevent that from happening and speed everything up.
posted by pracowity at 6:24 AM on December 20, 2005

Go PATH train! Yay!
posted by adampsyche at 6:24 AM on December 20, 2005

You can include me among the ranks of lefties who bemoan the loss of power and influence of unions in this country, but that doesn't change the fact that this strike is bullshit. The transit workers, who are essentially unskilled, make more money and have better pensions than many of the nurses where I work, many of whom were mandated this morning after working all night. A starting train conductor makes double the salary of a starting police officer--$52,000 before overtime. I have very little sympathy for this strike. I think it's time to consider automating the trains to the extent that it's technologically possible to prevent this sort of civic disaster in the future.
posted by mert at 6:27 AM on December 20, 2005

Actually, I Love Tacos is right, XQUZYPHYR. One of the three train lines here in Lyon (France) is computer controlled, although humans still watch it. MTA security should be paid for by taxes, i.e. cops. Repair & maintenance should be most of the operating expenses, with operations being important, smart, & highly paid, but lightly staffed.

Humans should be replaced by machines at every opportunity. You inevitably face a choice between exploiting workers & exploiting consumers.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:30 AM on December 20, 2005

Fuck pensions. Aren't they the reason why every major american company from airlines to auto manufacturers are having to fire thousands of workers now?

No. Mismanagement and a form of legalized embezzlement of the pensions by auto manufacturers and airlines are why those companies are having to fire thousands of workers now.

Look, the career span of a manual laborer is relatively short compared to a white-collar job. Now, a manual laborer can be worked until he's no longer useful and thrown away once he hits 50 or so, or the employer can set up a system where said laborer is assured of a modest pension after working there for almost 35 years.

And in a year where the public is getting excited about how they can all get a piece of the MTA's $1 billion surplus, and the mayor happily encouraged this idea as an election-year giveaway, I don't seem to have a problem with the unions trying to get a better deal from the MTA, as well.
posted by deanc at 6:31 AM on December 20, 2005

jeffburdges:Humans should be replaced by machines at every opportunity.

*replaces jeffburdges with an obtuse-commenting-machine*
posted by jonmc at 6:32 AM on December 20, 2005

mert, you have a point, but I wonder if it's more accurate to say that the payrate of cops and nurses is bullshit. Relatively transit employees are doing well, and maybe it is because they have a strong union and are willing to strike.
I am divided on this -- the strike will harm people, and I am not comfortable with that, but I am less comfortable with a country that thinks judges economic well-being by the stock market than it does by wages earned, hours worked, health care, and retirement benefits. Our priorities got screwed up some time back.
posted by kingfisher, his musclebound cat at 6:34 AM on December 20, 2005

johnmc:

Of course it's a bitch. I'm not saying a strike affecting public transportation, as in this case, is something you happily cheer on when it hits you. Plain and simple - it's a bitch.

However, with a just the slightest of consideration of your fellow man, you'll probably see the misfortune forcing his action in the first place, which ought to leave room for a bit of understanding. Let's not forget, you might be walking his shoes one day. And well, if you don't see it, if all you do see is your own needs and requirements in life, well then why, at all, should anyone give a flying circus how you are affected - make your own way.

That was my point.

Besides that, I do feel for you having to make that walk. And let's hope they've settled the issue soon enough.
posted by psychomedia at 6:35 AM on December 20, 2005

I wish the strikers well, but just being selfish for a second: do any NYers know how easy/impossible it is to get a cab? I am in Philly and MUST return to NYC tonight or tomorrow (at the latest). I'll be returning via Amtrak and arriving in Penn Station. From there, I must somehow get to Brooklyn -- which is why I'm asking about cabs.

I would consider walking across the bridge, but I have really heavy bags with me. And it's cold.
posted by grumblebee at 6:37 AM on December 20, 2005

However, with a just the slightest of consideration of your fellow man, you'll probably see the misfortune forcing his action in the first place, which ought to leave room for a bit of understanding.

I'm considerate for my fellow man. I'm considerate for my bus driver last night, who sounded terrified at the prospect of having to go on strike, because he just bought a house. But he didn't get to decide for himself, did he- the board of directors of his union in a room far from him made that decision for him. Channel 2 (CBS) was just talking about what was going on in the room when the TWU Local turned down the latest deal with the MTA- apparently the national union couldn't believe they did it, and it was a huge fight with lots of politics and what not. That's what this stupid thing is- it's all politics. And we're all, transit workers and commuters alike, getting screwed.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:39 AM on December 20, 2005 [1 favorite]

Humans should be replaced by machines at every opportunity. You inevitably face a choice between exploiting workers & exploiting consumers.

And, um, by the way. . . been wondering when we start reaping the benefits of technology and start working less. Not more.
posted by kingfisher, his musclebound cat at 6:39 AM on December 20, 2005

Besides that, I do feel for you having to make that walk.

Whatta you kidding me? I took the day off. I'll lose a days pay, but better that than being sick and exhausted. And as I said earlier, I sympathize with the workers. But it affects my life badly, so I still reserve the right to bitch about it. And maybe if we all bitch enough both sides will get their asses back to the negotiating table.
posted by jonmc at 6:41 AM on December 20, 2005

Fuck pensions. Aren't they the reason why every major american company from airlines to auto manufacturers are having to fire thousands of workers now?

Afroblanco. When properly applied, pensions take care of themselves. The two industries you mentioned are well known for mismanagement and their ability to completely ignore global trends, lots of other places still have pensions and do just fine.
posted by furtive at 6:42 AM on December 20, 2005

I think it's time to consider automating the trains to the extent that it's technologically possible to prevent this sort of civic disaster in the future.

Sure. We'll have that for you by Wednesday. Wednesday good?

Okay, once again: there are 33,000 TWU workers. They don't all drive trains. There are engineers who have to repair them, inspectors who check them, technicians who maintain them (all of whom are, by the way, trained and certified, but please continue to not know what you're talking about with the "unskilled labor" stuff), and support staff who clean them and the tracks. There's also that slightly insignficant matter of the several hundred busses that won't be human-free any time soon.

Enjoy your "eat it unions!" fantasy of all-robot subways, but even when that happens there will still be a thousands-large workforce who require, and deserve, a fair contract. Calling the employees of the TWU "useless" when your complaining in this thread proves just how necessary they are right now only dulls your rhetoric.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 6:42 AM on December 20, 2005

The transit workers, who are essentially unskilled, make more money and have better pensions than many of the nurses where I work

I'm with King Fisher. What you're basically saying is that because nurses and policemen are making shit, so should the MTA workers and in fact maybe I'm making too much then. Maybe instead we should take better care of our nurses and cops.

But I do know that the MTA does have a lot of fat they can cut out. But I can say that for a lot of gov't run companies.
posted by pez_LPhiE at 6:44 AM on December 20, 2005

Afroblanco writes "Healthcare, on the other hand is a different matter. That, IMHO, should be paid for by the government. Healthcare costs are another reason why the big companies are having to fire people in the thousands."

Yes, if we had single-payer healthcare then we wouldn't have that come up all the time in contract negotiations, and it would even help poor software developers who are too lazy to organize for themselves and so instead criticize those with the guts to risk losing their job to fight for equity. But, Afroblanco, just because you don't get a pension doesn't mean you shouldn't, and, as you pointed out, pensions and healthcare are linked and if the USA provided the one (as it should), companies could provide the other.
posted by OmieWise at 6:44 AM on December 20, 2005

Nobody strikes for the hell of it.

Well- pride and emotion are strong factors for stupid actions in any negotiation, so the hell of it probably is a factor, and possibly a large one. That's one reason why democracies support wars. And the union has turned down offers of binding arbitration, no? (Is there a good reason for that? Don't know, genuinely wondering. I have no dog in this fight.)

According to SS, the life expectancy at age 65 has risen from 12.7 more years to 15.3 more years, 1940 to 1990.

Ditto Justinian. Moreover, with respect, but as a general rule, I don't entirely trust government statistics,
posted by IndigoJones at 6:44 AM on December 20, 2005

in addition to my comment on pensions, I will add this:

I think that we should keep social security. Gutting social security in the way that the Bush Administration wants to do will only create more pressure on Americans' failing pensions, a good portion of which are due to be crammed-down anyway.
posted by Afroblanco at 6:44 AM on December 20, 2005

You're overlooking a rather important point: It's true that life expectancy at 65 has "only" gone up by 25% (which is actually pretty significant from an economic standpoint)

Since 1960, retirement spans are apparently increasing .06 years per year. Since the payouts are at the back-end of 30-40 years of compounding interest, I don't think this is that significant.

eg. the 25yo hiree now will apparently have a 30x0.06 = 2 year longer retirement in 2035 than people retiring this year.

but a lot fewer people lived to 65 in the first place until relatively recently. You have to look at life expectancy at 18 or so, not life expectancy at 65.

disagree. We need to look at life expectancy from the pension age. 65 is a lot closer than 18.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 6:45 AM on December 20, 2005

A starting train conductor makes double the salary of a starting police officer--$52,000 before overtime.

Do you mean a starting police officer nationwide, or in NYC? If that's the starting salary for the NYPD, then this strike is absolutely disgusting.
posted by gsteff at 6:45 AM on December 20, 2005

I think the union would have more support if they waged their strike in the spring. In the winter, during the holidays, yikes -- why union why?

I hate to state it, but you sort of got to wish that unions had something other to bargain with other than strikes.
posted by narebuc at 6:48 AM on December 20, 2005

And OmieWise:

It's not that I think people don't deserve a pension. It's just that the system doesn't work. Any system that requires companies to lay off people in the thousands to pay impractical benifits to past workers is doomed to fail. When you start firing employees and have to shrink your business, how are you going to continue to pay for those pensions? Seems like a vicious cycle to me.

Besides, if you read my slate link, you'll see that the American pension system is more-or-less insolvent anyway.
posted by Afroblanco at 6:48 AM on December 20, 2005

Heywood Mogroot writes "disagree. We need to look at life expectancy from the pension age. 65 is a lot closer than 18."

You're both right, but for different reasons. Life expectancy has not risen, survival to age 5 has risen. In other words, people who made it to 65 are as likely to live to 80 as they ever were, but now more people are living to 65 and therefore the overall numbers (the averages) make it look like life expectancy has risen. This means that the relevant number is really survival to age 5, not life expectancy past 65.

On the other hand, the baby boomers are entering this age bracket, and so the population of people in retirement is growing hugely. So, what matters is the number of people retiring, and how long they will be retired.
posted by OmieWise at 6:50 AM on December 20, 2005

narebuc, are you kidding? If then went on string in Spring or Summer, NO ONE would give a shit. They do it in winter (specifically right before the holidays) for a REASON. It reminds me ofa woman on the TV last night bitching that they should have waited until after New Years to strike. There is a strategy behind all this and it is strike when people are most dependant on your service, so that you can gain the most attention, and hopefully, get those people to put pressure on the MTA.
posted by piratebowling at 6:52 AM on December 20, 2005

grumblebee: it looks like you should be able to grab a cab at penn station tonight. The wait might be long (right now they are saying 1 hour), but hopefully that will get better towards the evening.
posted by jba at 6:54 AM on December 20, 2005

grumblebee: I'll be returning via Amtrak and arriving in Penn Station. From there, I must somehow get to Brooklyn

The LIRR is still running. You can take it from Penn Station to Jamaica (Queens) and from there to Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn (corner of Atlantic Ave.—basically, the northwest corner of Park Slope). Both run pretty often, and each leg is about 20 minutes. Not sure if that's anywhere near where you need to be in Brooklyn, though.
posted by staggernation at 6:55 AM on December 20, 2005

Dude. I walked today instead of getting the F (25 blocks or so) and MAN IT'S DAMN COLD.
posted by ny_scotsman at 6:55 AM on December 20, 2005

Dude. I walked today instead of getting the F (25 blocks or so) and MAN IT'S DAMN COLD.

Unless you're over 62, no bitching. So says the MTA.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 6:58 AM on December 20, 2005

I'm riding my bike. I just went outside, got in a cab on 116th, and got laughed at by the cabbie. I got out, and I'm getting the bike out.
posted by splatta at 6:59 AM on December 20, 2005

been wondering when we start reaping the benefits of technology and start working less

look to where your income goes. Housing, right? We are all competing for quality living space, the one thing robots can't create (yet), and the one thing our present system (at least in the US & UK) is doing a pretty piss-poor job of maximizing.

It's a fact of economics that housing costs will suck any surplus out of any free market system, since ~90% of the market would like to move to a higher-quality home (newer/nicer fixtures, larger, better schools, shorter commute, etc) and supply at any given time is fixed, and the quality of one's abode is quite simply the determining factor of one's entire quality of life (modulo personal health issues I guess).

Seeing this dynamic work its wonders in the SF bay area 1975-now has opened my eyes. We are all so super productive in the bay area, but most of this bounty is just going into crazy land valuations and landlord's pockets.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 7:02 AM on December 20, 2005

Outer-Borough Commuters: I'd bet there are livery vans running many of the bus routes in Brooklyn and Queens today. They already go many routes in non-strike circumstances. Big one in Brooklyn is down Flatbush to King's Plaza - the B41. They're all over Jamaica. May not help get you to Manhattan, but can help get you to the LIRR

Pracowity: Privatization is well in effect for many bus routes.
posted by Marnie at 7:05 AM on December 20, 2005

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll have to make a decision between the LIRR route, which will drop me about an hour's walk from home (with my heavy bags) and the waiting-for-a-cab route. The cab sounds better, assuming I can convince a driver to take me to Brooklyn. My guess is that they'd rather make short runs in Manhattan, because they'll be able to make more money that way.
posted by grumblebee at 7:05 AM on December 20, 2005

FYI, a few links concerning Roger Toussaint. Also some (slightly backdated) words from the Revolutionary Transit Worker, a bulletin for TWU Local 100 supported by the League for the Revolutionary Party, replete with Marxist jargon. Sounds almost quaint.
posted by IndigoJones at 7:08 AM on December 20, 2005

Fuck pensions. Aren't they the reason why every major american company from airlines to auto manufacturers are having to fire thousands of workers now?

Lame excuse. they are simply managed badly. Don't blame the workers for managements errors (greed).
posted by twistedonion at 7:11 AM on December 20, 2005

Afroblanco: with regards pensions you do realise that the workers pay into the pension plan over the course of their employment and that the payout is supposed to be what they invested in the plan plus whatever gains were made by the folks managing the pension plan (by investing that large pool of money).

The problems start when companies start dipping into that oh so tempting big pile of money and are then unable to pay it back.
posted by zeoslap at 7:14 AM on December 20, 2005

they only have the realistic option of striking when their contracts are up for renegotiation, which is now, not in the spring.

The transit workers, who are essentially unskilled,
Are you crazy? They're almost entirely skilled workers, doing very specialized work. Repairing tracks, and trains and buses, signals and systems, etc, for a gigantic, very spread-out, and often ancient infrastructure. Many of them work outside too--even in this weather. Most workers, and the work they do, are not visible to the public at all.
posted by amberglow at 7:15 AM on December 20, 2005

So, what matters is the number of people retiring, and how long they will be retired.

Not when talking about pension costs. Hopefully/ideally these would be self-funded and not a ponzi scheme. My point is that given the +0.6 years/decade pattern, entering employees should expect << 1% increase/yr in pension contributions, since ~1% compounded at 5% over 20-30 years will be sufficient to cover the expected longer retirement period.

Doing some hackery in excel I see that raising annual contributions .5% yields an extra .1 year of retirement pension ($6000/yr contribution over 30 years, 5% compounding interest, $40k/yr pension).
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 7:19 AM on December 20, 2005

...To our riders, we ask for your understanding forbearance. We stood with you to keep token booths open, to keep conductors on the train and oppose fare hikes. We now ask that you stand with us. We did not want a strike. Evidently the MTA, governor and the Mayor did.

We call on all good will New Yorkers, the Labor Community, and all working people to recognize that our fight is their fight, and to rally in our support with solidarity activities and events. And to show the MTA that TWU does not stand alone. ...--TWU
posted by amberglow at 7:19 AM on December 20, 2005

where's fixedgear???
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 7:19 AM on December 20, 2005

Heywood, the MTA is reducing the workforce tho--how does a smaller pool of people paying into pension funds affect the figures?
posted by amberglow at 7:20 AM on December 20, 2005

Here in Philly we had to deal with a transit strike a few months ago, but luckily for us the public transit company here has been dive-bombing itself into irrelevancy for decades now. The public reaction to the strike was largely a giant collective shrug as people climbed into their cars, drove to work, and maybe discovered that they liked this better than dank train stations and late buses. I would say that SEPTA shot itself in the foot again, but most people only have two feet to shoot.

So be thankful that you live in a place where public transit is so vitally important that to have it shut down is unthinkable. Here it's something of an afterthought.
posted by deafmute at 7:21 AM on December 20, 2005

Walked this morning from Astoria down to around 14th and 9th Av. Yeah, it was pretty cold, but the walk was actually quite nice. The light on Manhattan while walking over the Queensboro bridge was quite lovely, and Soterios Johnson kept me company obsessing over the traffic at 96th St.

And - hey - it wasn't raining like it would have been on Friday.
posted by icosahedral at 7:28 AM on December 20, 2005

How long did it take you, icosahedral?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:36 AM on December 20, 2005 [1 favorite]

twistedonion and zeoslap: true and true. (Although, twistedonion, who ever said that I was blaming the employees?)

I still don't get why pensions are a good idea. Doesn't it make more sense to have an IRA or 401K and have the employees manage their own assets? Then you remove the opportunity for corperate greed to rear its ugly head.
posted by Afroblanco at 7:43 AM on December 20, 2005

This debate is one of the positive side benefits of the strike, by the way.
posted by By The Grace of God at 7:45 AM on December 20, 2005

The city's ferry information is wrong -- NY Water Taxi (apparently the only ferry between Queens and Manhattan) is not going to Pier 11 (Wall Street) from Hunter's Point. It only goes to 34th Street from there. So my plans are screwed.
posted by gubo at 7:47 AM on December 20, 2005

DenOfSizer: “when the armageddon comes to this country and we finally run out of oil, I'm gonna leisurely strolling through my ped-friendly neighborhood in the city and I'll be LAUGHING MY FREAKING ASS OFF, thinking of you, starving and vehicleless in your forgotten Minnesotan hovel.”

Not that I don’t agree with you about the usefulness of Cellphone’s comment, but in this ped-friendly utopia you envision where does the food come from? I suppose with over 8 million people – cannibalism is always an option.
posted by Tenuki at 7:48 AM on December 20, 2005

It took somewhere around 2 hours or so. Forgot to look at the clock before I walked out. The only place where there was some serious pedestrian congestion / elbowing was around Port Authority.

(Hi neighbor!)
posted by icosahedral at 7:53 AM on December 20, 2005

Good to know, icosahedral... I work in the Union Square area, and I was wondering how long such a trek would take.

Yay Astoria!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:55 AM on December 20, 2005 [1 favorite]

Way, way too many Astoria people here.

My wife got a car service at 7AM to take her to Jamaica for the LIRR; had to wait about 2 hours for that, then the train wasn't going anywhere; got to Penn Station and had to wait for a cab to get her down to Wall Street. She should just be getting in...now.
posted by Remy at 7:56 AM on December 20, 2005

Heywood: You do need to look at the life expectancy at below pension age because quite a lot of people used to drop dead in their 50s or whatever. Those people had a full productive life as employees but, and this is key, died before they drew from the pension.

You're trying to just look at people who survived to collect the pension and how long they drew it for. But it's at least as important to look at what percentage of employees died before they drew a pension. From a purely economic standpoint, the best result for the employer is when the employee dies immediately after retirement. You got the full productive live of the employee before having to hire and train a replacement and never had to pay a pension! WIN!

Omiewise: I'm familiar with the misleading nature of very old "life expectancy" figures, but it's not quite true that once people survived infancy they were "just as likely" to live to 80 as they are now. People weren't dropping like flies in their 30s like life expectancy figures in high-infant mortality times would lead you to believe, but nowhere near as many were living well into their 80s, either. Some were, but not as many as today. Lots and lots of people would die in their late 50s and early 60s from heart attacks and diseases and such.
posted by Justinian at 7:58 AM on December 20, 2005

TWU Local 100 Blog. Let's see how long the comments remain enabled!
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 8:00 AM on December 20, 2005

Afroblanco, sorry - you didn't. I'm a bit of a socialist, so I think the onus is on the Government to look after us when we are unemployed, sick or unemployable (retired). Of course, we pay for that in taxes through our working lives. But that's an ideal world, certainly not the US (or UK lately).

Personal responsibility is great... but hard to save for the future, when you are trying to put food on the plate today (I'm talking about low paid working class here). Company pensions were always a good benefit for the working class imo - the worker would contribute a portion and the company contributes while you work for them.
posted by twistedonion at 8:08 AM on December 20, 2005

Just got in, the ride was pretty easy once I got below 96. Above it, however, was a nightmare. What baffled me, was that many of the cars I rode between had one or two people in them. Did these people think there was some kind of exception to the four people to a car rule made especially for them?

I missed my bike, this makes me wonder why I stopped riding it just because it got cold...


Oh, and is this going to affect the NYC meetup this Thursday?
posted by splatta at 8:12 AM on December 20, 2005

If the strike is still going on, I can't make the meetup. But I imagine there are enough people who would be able to.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:17 AM on December 20, 2005 [1 favorite]

Company pensions were always a good benefit for the working class imo - the worker would contribute a portion and the company contributes while you work for them.

How is this better then a 401K, where you contribute to the 401K, and the company matches some of your contribution?

Oh, and is this going to affect the NYC meetup this Thursday?

Well, I'm going to be there.

(You see, I knew ahead of time that this strike would happen, which is why I strategically chose a venue that's across the street from me. I've got psychic skills, yo.)
posted by Afroblanco at 8:19 AM on December 20, 2005

If anyon wants to meet PP, I'm in the Tea Lounge on Union in Park Slope right now, working, and enjoying the transit strike. May it go on for a few days! And then, I say, fire them all! ;- )
posted by ParisParamus at 8:20 AM on December 20, 2005

Just kidding, about the firing. But they don't deserve more $
posted by ParisParamus at 8:26 AM on December 20, 2005

MeTa thread about meetup/strike issues.
posted by Afroblanco at 8:32 AM on December 20, 2005

But they don't deserve more $ - ParisParamus

One of the challenging things about unions (it's both good and bad) is that everyone is treated the same. So there are employees that deserve raises and employees that don't, but it's all or nothing.
posted by raedyn at 8:32 AM on December 20, 2005

A starting train conductor makes double the salary of a starting police officer--$52,000 before overtime.

If the strike is successful it could mean better compensation and pension plans for all city employees, including police and teachers, who badly need a raise. Or at least more bargaining power. From what I've heard, they're very supportive of the strike.

I reserve my ire for tollbooth collectors, who get crazy overtime and pensions for work much less skilled than the MTA workers.
posted by Marnie at 8:45 AM on December 20, 2005

For those complaining about the strike, they're done partially to remind you how important the workers are to the city. You may argue that their work is unskilled, and that they shouldn't get paid as much as a software engineer, but obviously their work is incredibly important to the city.

I should mention that I'm somewhat biased as my dad was a UPS driver for more than 25 years. On one hand, he still has incredible health insurance, a pension, and had good benefits when he worked. On the other hand, he has trouble walking or lifting heavy things now.
posted by drezdn at 8:52 AM on December 20, 2005

Via the transit-worker blog that CoolTim linked: hard-working MTA workers, all tuckered out.
posted by nicwolff at 8:56 AM on December 20, 2005