I'll take six million jobs and a slice of pepperoni, please.

February 23, 2006 11:32 AM

Bush's "pepperoni" defence of outsourcing."India's middle class is buying air-conditioners, kitchen appliances and washing machines, and a lot of them from American companies like GE and Whirlpool and Westinghouse. And that means their job base is growing here in the United States. Younger Indians are acquiring a taste for pizzas from Domino's, Pizza Hut..."
posted by insomnia_lj (90 comments total)

Let them eat linguica.
posted by keswick at 11:37 AM on February 23, 2006

Someone should take the microphone away from him when he starts talking about economics. I mean, Jesus, he could hurt someone.
posted by psmealey at 11:38 AM on February 23, 2006

Do American companies pay Indians non living wages (not that I've heard).

So then the question is, why would a company pay several times more to an American worker, when an Indian worker can do the same job (sometimes better) for considerably less?

As American workers, there's nothing we can do to stop outsourcing, short of acquiring skills that Indians don't have. It is a competitive marketplace after all.
posted by b_thinky at 11:38 AM on February 23, 2006

Maybe my position is a little controversial, but my basic feeling is:

1) Outsourcing is good.
2) People who complain about out outsourcing are whiny bitches.

I also feel that:
3) Lou Dobbs doesn't like outsourcing, therefore outsourcing is the best thing ever.
posted by delmoi at 11:38 AM on February 23, 2006

You can't stop globalization. Not only it is inevitable, but capitalism demands it.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 11:39 AM on February 23, 2006

Globalism is a pile of shit and is ruining this country.
posted by keswick at 11:40 AM on February 23, 2006

Well, if you havn't heard it, it must not be true!

But, for outsourced professional work, the wages are far beyond "living" and put people in the upper middle class of Indian society.
posted by delmoi at 11:40 AM on February 23, 2006

By the way, 200 Rupees is about $4.50. That translates out into $1.12 for a single vegetarian personal pan pizza.

That said, their chicken tikka pizza sounds more interesting to me.
posted by insomnia_lj at 11:41 AM on February 23, 2006

But American workers earned those jobs by being born into privilege! If we allow this to happen, we might undo centuries of imperialism and colonialism. What's next, a WTO round that's actually developmentally-minded and works to create reasonable IP law and reduces first world subsidizes and eliminates anti-dumping measures and...oops, I got ahead of myself.
posted by allen.spaulding at 11:41 AM on February 23, 2006

Do American companies pay Indians non living wages (not that I've heard).

No, they just make them non-living.
posted by jlub at 11:42 AM on February 23, 2006

Did you know you can outsource legal work to India for $28 an hour?
posted by delmoi at 11:43 AM on February 23, 2006

er, subsidies, and so on. Hope is intoxicating, what can I say.
posted by allen.spaulding at 11:43 AM on February 23, 2006

Globalism is a pile of shit and is ruining this country.

No, America is doing a pretty good job of ruining itself with or without sending jobs abroad.
posted by chunking express at 11:45 AM on February 23, 2006

I was going to FP this, but: How the GDP, unemployment numbers, and CPI are fudged, and what it means for the economy.
posted by sonofsamiam at 11:48 AM on February 23, 2006

You can't stop globalization. Not only it is inevitable, but capitalism demands it.

If that's the case, then get rid of all the stupid restrictions and let the Invisible Hand decide. It's true that you can live like a king in India on a wage that would barely pay the cheapest rent in the US. So why can't American workers move to India to do that work for that wage? The option is closed to them. Globalism has to work both ways, or it's not really globalism, is it?
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:48 AM on February 23, 2006

Whats wrong with sending jobs overseas anyway? Do you think that you're entitled to a job just because of where you were born? That dosn't seem very fair to me.
posted by delmoi at 11:49 AM on February 23, 2006

I believe in the sovereignty of nations, not the sovereignty of international corporations.
posted by keswick at 11:51 AM on February 23, 2006

Pizza Hut and Domino's? Obviously George W. doesn't know shit about pizza. He's probably never walked into a real Italian pizza joint and ordered a real slice with extra cheese and peppers.

Is there any better proof that the man is out of touch with the real world?
posted by zaelic at 11:54 AM on February 23, 2006

I believe in the sovereignty of nations, not the sovereignty of international corporations.

Why? What's so special about nations? They're really just corporations with more employees and more land. What's the basis for believing that they or anyone else should have sovereignty at all?
posted by JekPorkins at 11:58 AM on February 23, 2006

Faint of Butt : "So why can't American workers move to India to do that work for that wage?"

Yeah. Right. We do it if you do first, k? What about you start making Mexicans, Brazilians and other Latin Americans automatically entitled to a work visa?
posted by nkyad at 11:59 AM on February 23, 2006

Exactly. It's actually much easier for an American to work in India (in terms of immigration) than for an Indian to work in America. I think it's fucking awesome that India's on the move up. People harp on India, i'm guessing because there is a lot of work being done there, but Eastern Europe and China are also two places a lot of work is being moved. Good for them.
posted by chunking express at 12:03 PM on February 23, 2006

They tik ur jubs!
posted by brain_drain at 12:06 PM on February 23, 2006

A chronic shortage of skilled workers is threatening India's outsourcing industry. Call centers and outsourcing firms are growing fast, but their human resources employees despair because most of the young Indians they interview are, they say, "unemployable."

Some people in the IT industry have said that only one in 10 graduates is worth taking on. "Just look at their English," fumed a frustrated Mumbai-based call center manager as he waved around letters written by employees. One read: "As I am marrying my daughter, please grant a week's leave." Another said: "I am in well here and hope you are also in the same well."

But the outsourcing offers keep coming in, of course... They're going through the same irrational exuberance that hit the Silicon Valley in the '90s, where practically anyone could get a job in high tech, regardless of their skill or qualifications. Expect a helluva lot of unqualified people to be hired to do these jobs before they start shifting elsewhere.
posted by insomnia_lj at 12:07 PM on February 23, 2006

Speaking of outsourcing, it may be time for us Canadians to be a bit less smug.
posted by 327.ca at 12:14 PM on February 23, 2006

One read: "As I am marrying my daughter, please grant a week's leave."

If your English isn't good enough to know that that's a perfectly legitimate sentence (since it means that the writer is marrying his daughter to her fiance, not that he is going to become married to his own daughter), you shouldn't be running a call center in India.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:16 PM on February 23, 2006

Why? What's so special about nations? They're really just corporations with more employees and more land. What's the basis for believing that they or anyone else should have sovereignty at all?

I don't know what fruity culture you believe in, I'm guessing maybe some insane Ayn Rand thing, but I'm not going to sit here and debate the merits of a one world government or corporate plutocracy with you. It's kind of like the Special Olympics; even if I win, well, you know the rest.

"Just look at their English," fumed a frustrated Mumbai-based call center manager as he waved around letters written by employees

This comes as no surprise to anybody who has ever called Dell.
posted by keswick at 12:18 PM on February 23, 2006

I spent some time in New Delhi last year, training folks we were outsourcing to (I have since left that company); the entire time, I avoided eating food or drinking water from non-sterile sources, so as to avoid the inherent illness risks to a westerner.

Then, on the last day, the office ordered in a huge pile of Domino's pizza. Since franchising has been drilled into me since my youth as a means of indicating a certain level of quality and consistency, it didn't even occur to me not to eat a few slices.

Within hours, I was violently ill, in a very hard-to-explain-without-grossing-you-all-out way. I spent a few more hours "dealing with it", then ate an ungodly number of pills to keep myself from needing to squat in the plane's bathroom during my 26-hour journey back.

Another franchise/New Delhi memory: the shock of seeing a Ruby Tuesday's restaurant smack dab in the middle of unbelievable squalor.
posted by davejay at 12:20 PM on February 23, 2006

Also:

Expect a helluva lot of unqualified people to be hired to do these jobs before they start shifting elsewhere.

Boy howdy. There are many, many qualified folks, but just as many horribly unqualified ones, and it's a bit harder to tell the difference when there's also a language barrier.
posted by davejay at 12:23 PM on February 23, 2006

Poor American. It's a hard life, having to talk to an Indian. (Plus you have a Dell.)
posted by chunking express at 12:24 PM on February 23, 2006

It's 2006, and my tax dollars still go to American farmers and, more likely, agri-businesses so that they won't grow certain crops.

WTF?

American presidents (Dem or Rep) have no credibility on telling the rest of the world how to open up their markets and participate in a global economy. Nada. Zilch.
posted by bardic at 12:25 PM on February 23, 2006

davejay: didn't you hear about the kid that recently discovered in a western country (USA I guess?) that McDonald/Burgerking et al ice machines spit ice which is more contamined than toilet water ?

Guess Indians aren't to blame, it's corpocrapate culture. You get the crap and intestinal ilness, they get the profit. Because Market and globalization demand so, and who are you to complain ?
posted by elpapacito at 12:28 PM on February 23, 2006

chunking express: yeah, god forbid that customer service should speak the language of their callers. (for the record i have a Dell monitor... not a computer)
posted by keswick at 12:30 PM on February 23, 2006

On the one hand, we whine about how the poor of the world are getting shafted by The West, and on the other hand, we whine when poor people get jobs and stop being poor.

Globalisation is not only a good thing, it's the best thing to happen to the world in the last 50 odd years. With India and China we are witnessing the greatest mass exodus from poverty the world has ever seen. And if that costs you your job, then you're just going to have to learn to work as hard as they are, aren't you?
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 12:30 PM on February 23, 2006

No one has a right to a job, but everyone has a right to a decent wage. If Companies are allowed to move jobs to cheaper labor sources (in or out of the country) then the benefit derived (taxes on profits) must equal or better the benefits lost ( lost taxes on wages, Unenployment compenstation etc.) to the U.S. otherwise the terrorists win. I love rhetoric don't you.
posted by Gungho at 12:32 PM on February 23, 2006

Is there a Restraunt Gap?
posted by Artw at 12:32 PM on February 23, 2006

"There are many, many qualified folks, but just as many horribly unqualified ones, and it's a bit harder to tell the difference when there's also a language barrier."

Indeed. A language / cultural barrier can make a person who is qualified to do a job in India unqualified to do the same job in the US.

Sort of makes you worry when they're outsourcing jobs in the medical profession, doesn't it?
posted by insomnia_lj at 12:33 PM on February 23, 2006

Speaking of pizza, Pizza Hut's "mozzarella" is some sort of nasty that includes polydimethylsiloxane, also known as Dow-Corning Antifoam FG 10 for purposes not at all allowed by the FDA, and at levels some 90x greater than allowed by the FDA for its intended purpose.

The FG10 is required to reduce bubbling in the pizza oven. Pizza Hut needs to reduce bubbling, because their "mozzarella" is actually more food starch and water than it is dairy product.

This all from The Milkweed, issue 318, January 2006. I've no idea how I stumbled across it.

But suffice to say, I'm unlikely to ever eat at Pizza Hut again.

Wish I could trust the local small chains...
posted by five fresh fish at 12:34 PM on February 23, 2006

Why? What's so special about nations? They're really just corporations with more employees and more land. What's the basis for believing that they or anyone else should have sovereignty at all?

Well, imagine if a completely different set of laws applied to one corporation versus another, and some of the corporations pollute while others have to pay to be clean, and some of the corporations run sweatshops while others have pension plans.

Our ancestors worked very hard to win concessions on days/hours worked, benefits, wages, child labor practices, pollution and other environmental damage, insurance, and all sorts of other things that we take for granted. What happens when those very institutions that we won these concessions from be allowed to replace local workers with outsourced workers who never won -- and so do not receive -- those same concessions?

I mean, cheap consumer goods are all well and good, but if the average working wage goes down and the number of unemployed go up, those goods NEED to be cheaper -- in the short run. In the long run, they won't be any cheaper.

And that's what you are talking about here, the long run. It took us (United States, in my case) x number of years to industrialize and establish ourselves at the level we're at; with a huge influx of capital and jobs to other countries, the other countries will eventually reach the same level of industrialization. Similar concessions will be fought for and won, wages will rise, and so will costs (to live, to work, to travel, to eat). Eventually they reach parity with us, or close enough as to even out the playing field.

And so what happens then? Outsourcing goes somewhere else. It's already happening, to China this time. And it will keep happening until there are no more workers to be exploited in any nation, and outsourcing will be no more or less effective than not outsourcing. So in the long run, I agree with you.

I'll check in with you in 200 years or so to see if it all worked out. In the meantime, in the short term, workers are being exploited in some places, fired in others, and all in the name of greater short-term profits. All the people doing this will be long, long dead before any kind of level playing field is established planet-wide.
posted by davejay at 12:34 PM on February 23, 2006

And if that costs you your job, then you're just going to have to learn to work as hard as they are, aren't you?

Keep on dreaming , even if we worked twice as hard as them we couldn't compete with their numbers ..the working hard line is just for these who say "let's work" and let the other do the real work
posted by elpapacito at 12:34 PM on February 23, 2006

No one has a right to a job, but everyone has a right to a decent wage.

I doubt it. The developed world climbed though 3 stages: no jobs, indecent jobs, decent jobs. If you remove the possibility of indecent jobs existing, then people will remain on the "no jobs" rung forever.
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 12:38 PM on February 23, 2006

davejay: didn't you hear about the kid that recently discovered in a western country (USA I guess?) that McDonald/Burgerking et al ice machines spit ice which is more contamined than toilet water ?

Yep! I wasn't commenting to say "lookit the unclean indianz", but to tell a funny/true story involving franchising and India. FWIW, I don't generally eat fast food, because that stuff scares the crap out of me nutritionally -- but when I elected to eat Domino's in New Delhi, I had decided to not worry about the nutritional aspects, and got bitten from a completely unexpected angle.

In short, the fact that it was "franchise" pizza made me trust that it was "the same" pizza my body was used to, using ingredients I could tolerate. The very corporate branding that I have learned to distrust when here at home bit me in the ass (literally!) when I was in another culture, inasmuch as I trusted branding more than the advice I had received not to eat unproven foods while in New Delhi.

Guess Indians aren't to blame, it's corpocrapate culture.

No argument here.
posted by davejay at 12:40 PM on February 23, 2006

Keep on dreaming , even if we worked twice as hard as them we couldn't compete with their numbers ..the working hard line is just for these who say "let's work" and let the other do the real work

I prefer to think of competition for jobs as being between "me" and "you" rather than between "us" and "them". Otherwise we get into brain_drain's comment...
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 12:42 PM on February 23, 2006

Keswick, if you are dealing with people that don't speak English well at all you should complain to Dell or to their supervisors. I understand the frustration there, but it is foolish to think that it's a problem across the board. Most Indians are educated completely in English. In places like Bangalore you find most everyone speaks English, and speaks it well, albeit with one of those quasi British-Indian accents.

Also, If you have one of those 24" dell monitors I officially hate you.
posted by chunking express at 12:42 PM on February 23, 2006

chungking express:
posted by keswick at 12:46 PM on February 23, 2006

chunking express: yeah, i've found massive international corporations like Dell to be really responsive to my complaints.

(what if i said i have one of the new 30" widescreens? (i'd be lying; it's a 20" widescreen. i await your official dislike.))
posted by keswick at 12:49 PM on February 23, 2006

Offtopic: Yes, that 20" monitor is enough to earn my scorn.
posted by chunking express at 1:11 PM on February 23, 2006

I worked at a company in 2003 which decided to outsource its Customer Care department to an outfit in India. I worked on the periphery of the Customer Care department at the time, but I was roped into helping train the new overseas reps while remaining stateside. Knowing how this company handled the training and transition process, I never want to have to deal with it ever again, either as a fellow employee or a consumer.

We spent two months or so stateside working on the reps' English, trying to get them to drop strange phrasing such as "We would like to remind you to do the needful" and "I am writing with respectfully." Every rep adopted an Americanized name and was trained to say "for security reasons, we cannot reveal the location of our call center" so as to keep up the elaborate charade which nobody was buying, anyway.

I also acted as a supervisor, handling escalated calls from irate customers ("he is irated," most reps would warn me.) This meant having to calm down some angry redneck who never got the rep's ethnicity right. This was the worst part of the job, hands down, because while I felt uncomfortable enough training those people I knew would end up replacing my stateside coworkers, I felt even worse having to listen to my fellow Americans bellow ignorantly and belligerently, using incorrectly-assigned ethnic slurs (the rednecks seemed to think our reps were all "Ay-Rabs" and spewed their post-9/11 epithets accordingly.) And all I could do in those cases was apologize for the inconvenience. It was terrible.

It was also incredibly dehumanizing. The reps worked on an elementary school reward system. If they achieved a 98% satisfaction rating for the day, they were allowed to go home with a piece of chocolate. I routinely found myself having to calm down a hysterical rep, whose 97.5% score was not satisfactory enough. I had to tell them that the scoring matrices were straightforward and that there were no strings I could pull. Grown men and women on the other side of the world would burst into tears when they heard they weren't getting their chocolate. I couldn't believe it.

Once the reps were more or less ready, the company went ahead and laid everybody in Customer Care off, even those of us who were promised we'd stay on. The Indian reps were paid pennies on our dollar. Hooray for the all-holy profit margin.
posted by Spatch at 1:19 PM on February 23, 2006

hoverboards don't work on water writes "And if that costs you your job, then you're just going to have to learn to work as hard as they are, aren't you?"

It's touchingly naive of you to think that one's individual performance matters when the subject is the closing of whole departments in the West so that their job may be done in India or China. Have a chocolate.
posted by clevershark at 1:27 PM on February 23, 2006

If that's the case, then get rid of all the stupid restrictions and let the Invisible Hand decide. It's true that you can live like a king in India on a wage that would barely pay the cheapest rent in the US.

What are you talking about? India has an immegration system just like the US. It's not difficult at all for an American to move to India and get a work permit or become a citizen. Much easier then the other way.
posted by delmoi at 1:28 PM on February 23, 2006

Whirlpool — a prophetic name if there ever was one — has operations in 170 countries. Their international strategy is outlined in the National Association of Manufacturers article, Globalization: It's Not Just About Wages:

Globalization is often viewed as a rootless process of constantly moving jobs to low-wage countries. But the issue is more complex, as illustrated by Whirlpool's worldwide operations. What attracts Mr. Fettig and other chief executives is a relatively new form of globalization that emphasizes first-rate centers of production and design in various countries - including the United States.

Whirlpool's global network, a work in progress, includes microwave ovens engineered in Sweden and made in China for American consumers; stoves designed in America and made in Tulsa, Okla., for American consumers; refrigerators assembled in Brazil and exported to Europe; and top-loading washers made at a sprawling factory in Clyde, Ohio, for American consumers, although some are sold in Mexico.

"The really sophisticated multinationals," said Diana Farrell, director of the Global Institute at McKinsey & Company, the management consulting firm, "are taking advantage of the different locations in their global networks without worrying about whether they also sell in the countries where they produce."

The advantage of Whirlpool's approach to globalization is that it allows the company to put the earnings of overseas affiliates to their best use anywhere in the world, Ms. Farrell argues. The larger consequence, she adds, is that parent companies "invest in new technologies and business opportunities that will eventually create new jobs at home and abroad."

According to the International Operating Review (PDF) of their 2004 Annual Report, Whirlpool appliances for the Asian market are manufactured in China and India.
posted by cenoxo at 1:33 PM on February 23, 2006

A recent article at the BBC on the abuse call centre workers face.

Sepia Mutiny also covered this recently.
posted by chunking express at 1:36 PM on February 23, 2006

Speaking of pizza, Pizza Hut's "mozzarella" is some sort of nasty that includes polydimethylsiloxane, also known as Dow-Corning Antifoam FG 10 for purposes not at all allowed by the FDA, and at levels some 90x greater than allowed by the FDA for its intended purpose.

At a company Christmas party, I was talking to a food scientist about various meat products (the girlfriend of one of my co workers) Apparently a lot of the 'smoky flavorings' used in meat is actually anti-rancidity stuff that's supposed to keep meat tasking and looking fresh, even as it goes rancid the vast, overwhelming majority of meat people eat, according to her, is rancid. Anything you don't get fresh: is rancid. On pizzas, in restaurants, etc.

Except, she said, at Pizza Hut.
posted by delmoi at 1:36 PM on February 23, 2006

Globalization has undeniably increased India's wealth and economic prospects at the same time that the United States is increasing economically. Economics is not a zero-sum game. The individual is hurt by outsourcing, but not the economy as a whole. That said, there should be federal economic relief for those in the service sector who lost their jobs to outsourcing. Retraining should be the priority.
posted by geoff. at 1:41 PM on February 23, 2006

Clearco Silicone Defoamer #10 (food grade)

Synonyms include (search page) include _{defoamer, silicone defoamer, silicone defoamers, food defoamer, silicone food grade defoamer, food grade defoamer, 21 CFR 173.340, 21 CFR 173.340 defoamer, Dow Corning Antifoam, DC Antifoam FG-10, FG-10 defoamer, 10% silicone defoamer, kosher defoamer, silicone emulsion defoamer, emulsion defoamer, silicone emulsion defoamer, fermentation process defoamer, fruit processing defoamer, freeze drying defoamer, dairy food defoamer, potato defoamer, sugar refining defoamer, industrial defoamer}

FG stands for Food Grade, by the way.

"Clearco Silicone Defoamer #10 is approved as a direct food additive under 21 CFR 173.340 and may be used in foods up to a concentration of 100 parts of Defoamer #10 per million parts of food product. All materials used in Clearco Defoamer #10 are approved for use in the processing of kosher foods.

It's Kosher even. What exactly is your problem with FG-10?

Unlike the Indian pizza, which actually made the Original Poster sick, this would do nothing other then trigger paranoid fear chemical sounding things.
posted by delmoi at 1:46 PM on February 23, 2006

Just my experience as an IT guy who has to call help desks regularly for RMAs.

The thing I noticed about help desks located in India is that all the techs speak perfect english, but some (not all)have no idea what the hell is coming out of their mouth.
When I get those guys, I just ask for a ticket#, and call again. It feels that I am talking to telemarketer, because they stick to their script, and have a hard time adjusting to changes. Maybe those techs are just new, but I feel there is still value in getting a trained American support person. The trained Indian support person is good, but also seems to have a hard time getting off a predefined script.
posted by MrMulan at 1:51 PM on February 23, 2006

Yeah, I remember spending an hour with Dell trying to get them to send a new hard drive. The old one had obviously failed, but they still made me go through their step-by-step troubleshooting process before eventually resorting to fulfilling the warranty.
posted by sonofsamiam at 1:53 PM on February 23, 2006

Spatch: I worked at a Call center in Huxley, Iowa that was just as dehumanizing and paid, I think $7 an hour or so.. With the exception that they actually paid by the minute, and only paid you for time you were "logged on" to the system.

Callcentering in general sucks, no matter what country you are calling.
posted by delmoi at 1:56 PM on February 23, 2006

So...we’re creating a middle class there to consume our goods instead of broadening the middle class here to consume those goods?

Man, I must suck at economics, cause that doesn’t sound like a plan to me.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:58 PM on February 23, 2006

2) People who complain about out outsourcing are whiny bitches

That's a bit harsh.

But I do find it really amusing that people in the computer programming industry, whose stock in trade for the last 50+ years has been largely taking white-collar jobs and "outsourcing" them to silicon, complain so bitterly about their jobs being sent to India. As Arlo might say, it takes a lot of damn gall.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:05 PM on February 23, 2006

my bank uses call centers in india. they are very eager to do a good job but they fuck things up very often. i see some companies now advertising that they have call centers in my country i.e. not in india. when i see those ads it makes me want to buy their services. outsourcing has its limits.
posted by tranceformer at 2:16 PM on February 23, 2006

ps im just describing my experience.
posted by tranceformer at 2:23 PM on February 23, 2006

I'd think those Indians are buying appliances from LG, Samsung and Siemens.

I call my friends at the help desk for my company's outsourced IT department and am surprised at the excellent service I get. The accents are no worse than the east Texas accents that used to answer the phone.
posted by birdherder at 2:23 PM on February 23, 2006

So...we’re creating a middle class there to consume our goods instead of broadening the middle class here to consume those goods?

Man, I must suck at economics, cause that doesn’t sound like a plan to me.

Certanly sounds like a good plan for the world in general.
posted by delmoi at 2:35 PM on February 23, 2006

tranceformer, i did it already--give it a try if you care about the issue. The only thing that counts with companies is money--taking yours away makes a difference.

The day that we can travel as freely to work or live just as our jobs are doing is the day that outsourcing is ok.
posted by amberglow at 2:41 PM on February 23, 2006

and take a look at Mexico--jobs went there, and then left for cheaper places--India's in for the same thing happening, along with every place that these jobs go to. It's a neverending race to the cheapest.
posted by amberglow at 2:42 PM on February 23, 2006

In the next election you should all vote for ............. They will never let this kind of thing happen.
posted by srboisvert at 2:49 PM on February 23, 2006

Certanly sounds like a good plan for the world in general.

Fuck that noise. Tend your own gardens, 'n' such. I'm not really concerned about the welfare of Joe Q. Public in Calcutta; I'm more concerned about the welfare Joe Q. Public in, say, Detroit.

Globalism will establish a global fiefdom, not a global middle class.
posted by keswick at 2:58 PM on February 23, 2006

Fuck that noise. Tend your own gardens, 'n' such. I'm not really concerned about the welfare of Joe Q. Public in Calcutta; I'm more concerned about the welfare Joe Q. Public in, say, Detroit.

Well, congradulations. I'm not.
posted by delmoi at 3:12 PM on February 23, 2006

imagine you're a small business employer. one employee is demanding vacation, medical, dental, vision, 401k, and about 5 thousand more a year, while one employee would be happy to have a job. are you folks actually surprised jobs are being outsourced?

am i the only one who is kind of glad to see areas of the 3rd world start to develope? Getting them jobs will do 10x more than any amount of foreign aid.
posted by Tryptophan-5ht at 4:13 PM on February 23, 2006

Well, congradulations. I'm not.

When your neighbours live better, you live better. This is just a few more brancells up from simple selfishness.
posted by Space Coyote at 4:13 PM on February 23, 2006

"And if that costs you your job, then you're just going to have to learn to work as hard as they are, aren't you?"

Hrm. I knew quite a few very hard working people that lost their jobs simply because some suit wearing exec wanted to make himself look good by cutting costs and outsourcing the positions.
what's funny is that globalism looks great until it turns around and bitchslaps you.

And keswick - I agree with you. Can't say that I really care about Raheeb Sixpack in Calcutta, and I'm pretty damn sure he doesn't give a crap about me. But he'd probably like to have my job.
posted by drstein at 4:16 PM on February 23, 2006

... The people running this country—and that includes most of the leaders of both parties—have proven again and again they are perfectly willing to outsource American jobs, American wage standards, and American health and safety standards all for the sacred, holy grail of free trade. Why would it surprise us that national security is ditto? ...
posted by amberglow at 5:39 PM on February 23, 2006

Smedleyman : "So...we’re creating a middle class there to consume our goods instead of broadening the middle class here to consume those goods?

"Man, I must suck at economics, cause that doesn’t sound like a plan to me."

Indeed you do suck in economics. The first problem is, what you call middle-class would be called "filthy rich" in many if not most countries around the world. So, your middle class is extremely expensive (this does not apply to the US only, Canada and Western Europe have the same problem - and Japan nationalism just means it will take a little longer for the wave to hit them fully). The capital owners (the "market", the globalized corporations, call it whatever you want) saw this problem coming a long time ago. Globalization was the answer to this problem and it moved forward, at first hindered by the Cold War then into full speed. First the banking services were streamlined, standardized and de-regulated locally. Once the capital could move freely, the stock and derivative markets followed. Then manufacture and now the services. The point is that it is much better and efficient to have a poorer middle class everywhere than a very rich and hence very "spoiled" middle class concentrated in some countries. It is easier to control the work force if you can move elsewhere tomorrow and simply make all jobs disappear. You get to "control" the labor and safety laws and can then force the previously spoiled middle class back into its place. The whole point is that it does not matter anymore who buys the goods you produce. It is enough that someone somewhere buys it. The Capital, as always, has no geographically mandated loyalty.
posted by nkyad at 6:16 PM on February 23, 2006

Globalism is nothing new folks. Globalism is just the corporatist/capitalist system coming home to roost in America. Then, it was okay - our government/corporations fucked brown people over in other parts of the world, and we never had to see what was happening, save for accidentally stopping the channel on a Sally Strothers charity infomercial, or token harrumphing from congress on C-Span.

Now, global telecommunications combined with the active co-optation of both parties by corporate money and influence peddlers allow the big financial dogs to fully undermine national sovereignty, and fuck EVERYONE in the ass, while selling everyone cheap plastic crap they don't need.

National sovereignty don't mean beans when it gets in the way of profits, and sadly, both parties are in on the scam. The Republicans are just more honest about their graft. Look at Clinton and NAFTA, Hell, look at Clinton and Wal-Mart!

How did this happen? Well, we've allowed disciples of the Church of Capitalism to take over the public square in America, and we've allowed them to kill Democracy as the guiding principle of American society. I always laugh when people talk about the separation of church and state, and the idea that there is no official state religion in America. There sure as hell is. It's Capitalism.

Look at how narrow the political discourse is in this country. It's amazingly transparent to folks in most other parts of the world, places that may have *gasp* more than two viable political parties, but most Americans never notice. Hell, why should they? They don’t know any better. This is why we see Presidential candidates of the two parties agreeing more often than not in debates. It’s because they’re arguing from nearly identical frames of reference, taking many of the same “facts” for granted, sharing most of the same assumptions and philosophies regarding economics.

However, the “rightness” of Capitalism is so ingrained in most Americans’ minds that even questioning it, or outright criticizing it has instantly negative effects. Reactions from most Americans range from “you’re naïve” to “you’re a fucking pinko commie, shut up, why do you hate America?”


Now, here’s the thing. I’m not a “Communist.” Now, the definition of “Communism” is highly subjective. My personal definition is something akin to a thin veneer of “Socialist” theory covering up an ugly fetid pile of Authoritarian dictatorship.

My biggest problems with Communism are the same problems I have with Fascism. They are immoral, ineffective, and dangerous systems of government, and are flip sides to the same authoritarian coin.

Neither am I a Socialist. While the aims of socialism as a socioeconomic theory may be altruistic, we all know what the road to hell is paved with. Besides lobbyists, I mean.
Socialism is a deeply flawed economic system because it doesn’t adequately account for the many selfish aspects of human nature. Further, I am above all else, a libertarian. Not of the “I vote Republican but like to smoke a little weed while I clean my guns” variety, but in the sense that I believe that people have basic inalienable human rights, and that among them are the rights to life, liberty, etc. etc.

I believe control over a person’s labor, and control over how they spend the fruit of their labor, is one of those inherent liberties. So Socialism “treads on me” a bit much to adopt as a guiding political philosophy.

I believe unfettered Capitalism is immoral, unhealthy, and like Communism and Socialism, doesn’t work. Capitalism’s flaws have simply taken longer to manifest themselves. The problems with unfettered Capitalism are both moral and pragmatic. Morally speaking, Capitalism requires that a certain percentage of the population (3-10%, generally speaking) be unemployed at all times. Meanwhile, those 3-10% of the population are to be reviled for their inability to survive inherent flaws in the system.

Further, the “Invisible Hand” theory of a self-corrective economy is not only false and dangerous (it’s a bit like taking a nap on the freeway and trusting your Buick to get you home) but it’s also a justification for greed and inhumane treatment of our fellow human beings.

Now, I don’t think we’re going to get rid of Capitalism as an economic system anytime soon. I certainly don’t have the answers for a better economic structure. Capitalism is a sufficient economic system. It’s just a really shitty philosophy, and that’s the problem.

Laissez-Faire Capitalism has become the dominant philosophy in the United States. We as a society have been carefully trained to connote Capitalism with Democracy, as if the two went hand-in-hand, like bread and butter.

As an economic system, Capitalism is at best a necessary evil, but unfettered Capitalism as a social philosophy very likely poses the greatest threat to the spread of Democracy since Hitler invaded Poland.

Why? Because unfettered Capitalism, in it’s most recent form, call it Corporatism, Globalism, etc, is indifferent to the needs and rights of humanity. If at any time, it becomes more profitable to undermine Democracy than to defend it, there is no provision in Capitalism to do otherwise. If moving jobs to China or Saipan hurts American workers, so be it. If it’s profitable to overthrow a democratically elected leader in Venezuela, to pollute a city with carcinogens in India, and to create breadlines in Lansing, guess what. Hugo will go go, you’ll see some sick Sikhs, and Bobby Joe will go from the assembly line to the soup line.

We’re feeling the effects of this now. Capitalism is a flawed economic system, but it’s a downright scary and dangerous religion. If we don’t stop conflating Capitalism and Democracy, we will suffer the consequences. One represents the American Dream. The other, the American Reality. You can tell which is which, very simply. One is about what’s right, and the other is about what’s profitable.
posted by stenseng at 6:30 PM on February 23, 2006

The pizza in India is good. Sauce is a bit hotter than what you'd expect, making it quite a culturally-fitting experience. I usually had pizza from Pizza Corner, which is an India-wide chain owned by a Swiss corporation.
posted by VulcanMike at 6:49 PM on February 23, 2006

Not to worry, within a few generations the USA will be a third-world country and India will be exporting its work to you.

In the end, I think it might be a Reasonably Good Thing were countries to focus on becoming self-sufficient to the greatest extent possible.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:06 PM on February 23, 2006

stenseq, to say that laissez-faire capitalism is the dominant philosophy in the States today is only correct if you also accept that it isn't practiced. Business is still regulated, all too often to the advantage of existing big players. Currently, most especially to those who contribute to the ruling party. Or look at companies being allowed to back out of agreements over pensions. Or the criminalization of IP infringement. That's not laissez-faire. That's Fascism (corporatism).

Globalization, as an idea, has its merits. However, it regulated in such a way as to limit the advantages mainly to the corporate interests, at the expense of the consumer. Capital flows freely, goods somewhat freely. People, hardly at all.

And where's the justice when you force people to sell their public utilities to foreign capitalists, against their will, so the capitalists can raise prices, take fast profit, and run the system into the ground? It's just a way to use 'globalization' as a means to good old-fashioned exploitation.
posted by Goofyy at 11:04 PM on February 23, 2006

It's not difficult at all for an American to move to India and get a work permit or become a citizen.

I have heard that it's a lot harder for an American to get a job in India than the reverse, even if you have the right paperwork. Companies tend to prefer to hire locals. This is anecdotal, however.

I think that since America's population is declining (if you don't count immigration), growing the consuming class in other parts of the world is a good thing for America. Soon they'll all want TiVos and the company might not actually go bankrupt. In some ways this is actually happening faster in India than I'd expected, which makes me a bit optimistic that the pain here in the US won't be too extreme. As I recently wrote in an Ask MeFi thread, though, people are interested in things getting better for them, not a promise that things will be better for their grandchildren, so are not predisposed to any kind of insecurity. Most of us here don't have much savings, either, to ride out the rough time between the time we start outsourcing jobs to India and the time they start buying our stuff. Which is stupid, people should have emergency funds and the discipline to live well below their means when circumstances demand, but instead we spend everything we've got and more.

When your neighbours live better, you live better. This is just a few more brancells up from simple selfishness.

Indeed, and that would be part of the problem, wouldn't it? Something so close to simple selfishness can't be truly good, can it? Or so the anti-Randites tell me.
posted by kindall at 11:33 PM on February 23, 2006

In the end, I think it might be a Reasonably Good Thing were countries to focus on becoming self-sufficient to the greatest extent possible.

Yes, that was the Gandhi-Nehru line, which lasted from independence until around the early 90s, and from which the Indians are slowly beginning to recover.

From an aesthetic point of view, I wish India could still be frozen forever in the timewarp that protectionism caused, with her quirky 1950s Hindustan Ambassador cars & Enfield Bullet motorbikes as the latest in high technology, but I doubt that the locals would agree with me...
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:48 AM on February 24, 2006

stenseng:

The only thing scarier than unfettered capitalism is unfettered democracy. And if that's what the choice is, then give me some of that capitalism, please!
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 2:03 AM on February 24, 2006

"In the end, I think it might be a Reasonably Good Thing were countries to focus on becoming self-sufficient to the greatest extent possible."

Indeed... and it's far better for the environment as well. One of my (few) hopes about the end of the oil era is that it could encourage things to be produced closer to where they are consumed.

Importing from foriegn countries on the cheap is a way to sacrifice ecological efficiency for a lower initial price at the market... but it may be a very foolish thing to do, especially if there is a delayed / hidden ecological and health cost to our culture of repackaged, manufactured, imported convenience.

Could you imagine a culture where packaged, processed, imported foodstuffs became prohibitively expensive due to energy costs? We might have to learn to live longer and healthier by shopping more regularly, in smaller amounts, and eating and cooking fresh local produce! Oh noes!!

The D in MickeyD could end up standing for dinosaur.
posted by insomnia_lj at 2:53 AM on February 24, 2006

It is foolish to think that India and China aren't aware that it is foolish to compete soley on price. There will always be a cheaper place to get work done. You must add value to the equation. I think India does that, even if it isn't visible in the call centres you call up. (Accounting grunt works is done in India now. Getting second opinions on MRIs. Microsoft does QA work in India while the developers sleep in America. Etc.)
posted by chunking express at 8:11 AM on February 24, 2006

Slashdot: U.S. IT Hiring Increases Despite Outsourcing.
posted by chunking express at 8:34 AM on February 24, 2006

we dont have anything close to Laissez Faire Capitalism.. when you add up federal state local taxes social security etc, about 1 out of every 2 earned dollars goes to the government. Then they get spent on $200 coffee pots for the Pentagon. Oh and I would be really impressed if somebody could answer the following question. Why is it that every time somebody talks about how we benefit from our tax dollars the first (or only) thing they mention is "building and maintaining roads"?? How much do these roads costs anyway?
posted by tranceformer at 10:26 AM on February 24, 2006

tranceformer, you forgot to mention all the billion-dollar subsidies and bailouts we give to industries too--from farmers to airlines to steel producers to oil and gas companies, etc.
posted by amberglow at 10:29 AM on February 24, 2006

yeah amber or the regulations which only large corporations can afford to comply with or the bribes to foreign dictators to support us or the military intervention in places like Iraq etc etc, or interest payments on the debt used to buy favours in the past --- yep its crooked for sure.. what if that money turned into disposable income for the middle class -- what would the economy be like then?
posted by tranceformer at 12:22 PM on February 24, 2006

“The whole point is that it does not matter anymore who buys the goods you produce.”

And a dishwasher - or whatever product - costs the same here as it does there?

My point is - if factory ‘X’ in my town produces product ‘X’ and I buy it - it costs me a certain amount because of labor costs etc.
If that same factory ships it out to India so another guy can buy it, it costs him a certain amount because of transportation costs, and other labor costs etc.

The point being: I suck at economics because I tend to look first at efficiency.

All things being equal it’s better to locally produce as opposed to specialize.
Of course, not all things are equal.

But who do you suppose benefits from inequity in labor?

I’ll give you a hint, it’s not the “spoiled” middle class.
posted by Smedleyman at 10:50 AM on February 25, 2006

What is most amazing is that shipping is so cheap. We ship raw ore from Canada and the US to be smelted in China, then ship the sheet metal to the USA to be pressed into dishwasher casings, then ship the dishwasher to Timbuktu.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:29 AM on February 25, 2006

Indeed... and it's far better for the environment as well. One of my (few) hopes about the end of the oil era is that it could encourage things to be produced closer to where they are consumed.

That's absurd. If the US were to try to become energy independent, for example, we would be burning a shitload of coal along with all the oil we still produce (the US is the worlds #2 oil producer, believe it or not, but we use all of that and a lot more)

Local countries would use whatever resources they had, and almost all of them would need to go nuclear at some point (which will have to happen eventually, but maybe we'll have this world peace thing worked out by then)

How would you like it if all the stuff you had to buy and use needed to be made in the state you live in? The United States has had free trade within it's borders, and that's worked really well for at least 200 years.

The best thing is to be able to sell all you want too while keeping import tariffs on some industry sectors. If you don't want to do that, then total free trade is the best.

Right now the US is in the first position, and is screwing all these little countries.
posted by delmoi at 11:53 AM on February 25, 2006

"That's absurd."

That producing goods locally tends to be better for the environment? Hardly. There is no shipping involved, and, ideally, less processing and less waste. Scientists and environmentalists studying this have been saying as much for years.

Your example of coal is kind of inappropriate, really. The point isn't that our energy sources all have to be local, but rather that the rising cost of energy sources will increase the cost of importing goods in the first place, thereby greatly increasing the cost of distributing, processing, and packaging them to foriegn markets.

(That said, there is "clean coal" technology.)

"Local countries would use whatever resources they had, and almost all of them would need to go nuclear at some point..."

Which I don't deny. Let's hope for fusion.

"How would you like it if all the stuff you had to buy and use needed to be made in the state you live in?"

I think that would be peachy. Then again, I live in California, where pretty much anything and everything can be made, grown, etc.

"The United States has had free trade within it's borders, and that's worked really well for at least 200 years."

Nobody is saying that trading will stop. Only that a post-oil economy would put the state of trading back to the 1920s... arguably further. We'd be stuck using pre-oil technologies to try to inefficiently satisfy oil-era demands.
posted by insomnia_lj at 2:35 PM on February 25, 2006