Bow wow wow.

September 12, 2006 12:15 PM

Some people love the Dog Whisperer. Some people think he's a crock (link goes to a discussion of an August 31, 2006 editorial in the New York Times which is archived and can't be read without paying). There has been a fair amount of controversy about his methods. His former publicist is suing him for copyright infringement, among other things. Emily Yoffe rehabilitated her difficult beagle (discussed in her book) using techniques learned by watching his show and reading his book. I myself have used some of the techniques with our recently-acquired pound puppy. What about you? Do you think Cesar's got it, or full of it? Have you ever tried any of his methods on your dogs? What worked, what didn't?
posted by jennaratrix (42 comments total)

A perfectly credible FPP, but people are going to flag it because it looks like an AskMe.
posted by Afroblanco at 12:36 PM on September 12, 2006

Here's the NYTimes op-ed piece.

(I Googled a phrase likely to turn up the article at its original URL, then plugged that URL into the New York Times link generator.)
posted by jjg at 12:43 PM on September 12, 2006

Speaking as a dog-walker, I would say that he's half-crock and half-right on the money. He's saying a lot of things pet owners need to hear (mostly about how dogs are not tiny humans in fur coats) in a way that's palatable to our self-help age. I've used a few of the more common-sense techniques with the dogs I've walked, and they have met with positive results.

That said, a lot of the common-sense advice Cesar gives is also meted out in books by the Monks of the New Skete. Their books are not as "sexy" as Cesar the Dog Whisperer, but they're much longer on common sense advice.
posted by pxe2000 at 12:45 PM on September 12, 2006

By the way, I highly recommend watching this episode of South Park featuring the Dog Whisperer.
posted by Vindaloo at 12:54 PM on September 12, 2006

Weird. I just got a dog, and I've been getting Cesar Millan pushed at me with firehose pressure. Like pxe2000, I think he says some valuable things but has some pretty severe flaws.

But to me, the weird thing about him is his total ubiquity-- the guy's everywhere. And it's frightening/fascinating how every single person who ever interacts with Oprah Winfrey eventually turns into a self-replicating media franchise.

I guess I also think the vitriol he inspres can be pretty amazing. A couple of the biggest flamewars i've ever seen have been over Millan.
posted by COBRA! at 12:56 PM on September 12, 2006

That NYTimes piece is uninformed opinionated biased drivel with a dash of inferiority and a good deal of harbored grievance towards the men in the author's life that have oppressed her and brought her down.

Oh, it's by a guy named Mark Derr? Wow. I wonder if he had his penis removed surgically or if it happened during some industrial accident ... You'd think if they could re-attach Bobbit's severed member they could have saved his... Probably wasn't using it anyway...
posted by crunchyk9 at 12:57 PM on September 12, 2006

Wasn't he being sued for injuring a TV producer's dog on a treadmill? What became of that? (I didn't see it mentioned in the links -- did I miss it?)
posted by jca at 12:59 PM on September 12, 2006

I've never heard of him before but if he uses the Khoeler method (as someone indicates in the comments), I'd say he's 30 years behind.

I have an 8.5 year old American Staffordshire Terrier (a big pit bull, to most people) who I've had since he was 14 wks old. Initially I took him to pro trainers (3 different ones), each who used offshotts of the Khoeler method and each who came "highly recommended". It's all violence and horseshit, as I quickly found out. I discovered clicker training about a year into the dog's life and haven't had to use a choke chain or physical corrections since. For a while, I even had my dog turning off the lights on command. (He missed once and scratched the paint next to the switch, so I stopped.) The pro trainers couldn't even get him to do anything beyond sit and lie down, for Chrissakes.

On preview, wow, crunchy9, got any other useless opinions to share? Seriously, wtf?
posted by dobbs at 1:06 PM on September 12, 2006

a lot of the common-sense advice Cesar gives is also meted out in books by the Monks of the New Skete

I highly recommend anyone interested in getting a puppy pick up a copy of The art of raising a puppy by the Monks of New Skete. It's an excellent read and really teaches you how to raise your new dog. Read it before you get your new puppy, even if you're had dogs in the past
posted by crunchyk9 at 1:07 PM on September 12, 2006

My neighbors own a rescued pitbull that was severely abused by its original owners. Now it is the sweetest, nicest dog (to people, it's still a bit freaked out by other dogs) you could imagine. The dog was one of Cesar's earlier non-East LA 'clients' and they have nothing but effusive praise for him.

It could be that his methods are really more geared towards dogs with real problems, and that grafiting it on to all dogs and all owners is stretching it a bit.
posted by cell divide at 1:10 PM on September 12, 2006

Caesar Milan is a great dog trainer.... to poop on.

Seriously, his "knowledge" about dog behavior is about 20-40 years out of date (dominance is pretty much out of vogue ^), as are his training methods.

It's stupid to say he's always wrong, because even an idiot is right sometimes. But that doesn't mean you leave your dog in the care of the village idiot.

A couple other data points:

One episode I saw had a pit bull named "emily" that would get very excited when she saw other dogs. He "fixed" her by choking her until she collapsed, and described her semi-unconcious state as a "beautiful relief" related to her accepting his dominance.

He is being sued by a client for leaving his dog tied on a treadmill (in all fairness, it may have been one of his employees, but still).

On preview: That NYTimes piece is uninformed opinionated biased drivel with a dash of inferiority and a good deal of harbored grievance towards the men in the author's life that have oppressed her and brought her down

I have a hard time responding to this. The consensus among dog behavior academics (Ph.D.s and other academics, not un-degreed/unlicenced self-appointed dog "trainers") is that he is not a good trainer, does not give good advice, and is in general a bad thing for the welfare of pet dogs.

Unfortunately, I don't have a link to back up what I'm saying, but I'll see if I can dig something up.
posted by illovich at 1:11 PM on September 12, 2006

I worked with the DW for a segment on a talk show. The host involved was absolutely convinced that he wouldn't be able to help. Within maybe 15 minutes she had two new dogs. It was incredible....he never raised his voice, never jerked anyone's chain. I always figured there was mucho editing involved, but nope. He's all business, and it seemed obvious (to me, in the room at the time) that he cares about dogs.

That being said, I do think that a lot of what he does is common sense - just not so common to a lot of people.

(Also, there was a treadmill involved...the host said that the dogs would barely go in the room when the thing was on, and within 1 minute Cesar had the little guys on the treadmill, walking along, no problem. That being said, I would never let anyone leave an animal tied to a moving machine unattended...)
posted by nevercalm at 1:19 PM on September 12, 2006

I also recommend The Art of Raising a Puppy by the Monks of New Skete. Their methods are always tuned to the humane treatment of the animal.

I have had everyone from my mother to an actual veterinarian suggest Cesar Milan to help with my dog's pulling problem, but I believe he is nothing but sham and glam. I will continue to be patient and train my dog on a reward based system instead of a punishment based system.
posted by tim451 at 1:20 PM on September 12, 2006

Oh, and I'll be contrary and say the methods in the New Skete books are as out of date as Khoeler and you're just wasting your money. They're also boring as hell and very poorly design--terrible for your eyes. For my cash, the best books on dog training are Don't Shoot the Dog and The Culture Clash, but I haven't bought a new dog book in 4 or 5 years or so so can't comment on anything super recent.
posted by dobbs at 1:25 PM on September 12, 2006 [1 favorite]

Afroblanco: Yeah, I thought of that, and I think it's more a function of the wording of my post than anything else. I wasn't asking for my own benefit, I was trying to get a dialogue started, so I let it slide and figured I'd take the hits if they came.

jjg: Thanks for turning up the NYT op/ed, and for teaching me how do to that!

My dad swears by this guy, and I've had some luck with some of the methods, but as many have pointed out, a lot of it is common sense. If you know anything about dogs, it's not that hard to figure out. My problem with Cesar is his one-size-fits-all approach; like people, dogs are individuals and what works with one is not necessarily going to work with all of them. For example, my dog does NOT look at me at all when we approach other dogs on walks, so I'm not giving him any facial or visual cues; and yet, he still gets aggressive. That's just one example of many.

Well, good to see this generated some discussion; it's my first FPP in many years.
posted by jennaratrix at 1:43 PM on September 12, 2006

I just debated this in another forum.I think people make a mistake and assume dominance means beating a dog into submission. He talks about dominance as being the leader, nothing more, nothing less. You can do this with a punshment based system or a reward system. Or a combination of both.

One commonly suggested one is NILIF, which is a reward based system. It means Nothing In Life Is Free, and you use whatever the dog wants as a reward. A toy, a treat, going for a walk, getting pets. The dog must work to be rewarded and understands that you are in charge because you provide the dog with its wants WHEN it does what is requested of it.

Its the same end, just different means.

I like his show, I think it has a great message about how not to treat your dogs and a great motto for getting them to behave "exercise, discipline and affection" and no matter which way you work to achieve those things, you will have a happy dog that makes you happy.

On the flip side, I think he is extremely gifted and people take that to think its easy to do what he does. This man just has a natural way with dogs that people just won't be able to duplicate.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 1:45 PM on September 12, 2006

Caught him in a 5-ep marathon on the screen on the back of a JetBlue seat. Gotta say, that violent loud SSHHHHT noise he always uses works wonders. Learn that one if nothing else.
posted by damehex at 1:45 PM on September 12, 2006

Thanks for the link to that Mark Derr piece. He's a great writer about dogs, really exceptional. His book Man's Best Friend is one I've read twice, which is something I almost never do with for-the-nonce nonfiction books like that. His point about the sexism inherent in Millan's shtick is well taken and well-supported.
posted by OmieWise at 1:52 PM on September 12, 2006

crunchy9, got any other useless opinions to share?

Sure.

Not that it's news, but dogs are not people. People that try to treat dogs like people are, IMHO, seriously misguided.

To rail at Cesar because he immigrated illegally or has opinions about the differences in the way men and woman interact socially is just silly. What the hell does that have to do with training dogs?

I'm not arguing that perhaps his techniques are archaic, but he does get results when the owners are otherwise hopeless and has a successful TV show at the same time. I'm not a training expert, but I've always had well trained dogs, so much so that my friends come to me for help. I don't read all the litature or keep up with the latest fads, so I don't know what's going on in Dog psychology Monthly or whatever. The message that you should walk your dog every day to establish leadership and take charge is a good message that anyone can understand (though perhaps not implement responsibly).

That NYTimes piece is exactly the PC crap that removes any ability for our culture as a whole to effect any useful degree of change. We spend all of our time being butt-hurt about how we're not equal for whatever reason and holding witch-hunts on anyone that says otherwise instead of recognizing those differences and leveraging them.
posted by crunchyk9 at 1:53 PM on September 12, 2006

His point about the sexism inherent in Millan's shtick is well taken and well-supported.

Not this crap again. If you've seen the show, he talks extremely *HIGHLY* of women. Yes, he does talk about the differences of men and women, but does it mean he's wrong to say there are differences? He also seems to prefer working with women as in most cases, they are the ones catching on faster to what he's teaching the family.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 2:10 PM on September 12, 2006

People that try to treat dogs like people are, IMHO, seriously misguided.

Punishment-based discipline is treating dogs like people.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 2:11 PM on September 12, 2006

Punishment-based discipline is treating dogs like people.

I disagree. I have 4 animals in my household, and all 4 signal displeasure with certain actions with punishment, whether it's a growl, hiss, getting chased, swatted, whatever. If you turn on nature shows, wild dogs use "punishment training" as well.

I'm not sure how animals reward other animals....groom them?
posted by nevercalm at 2:22 PM on September 12, 2006

Not having cable TV until a month ago I have never heard of this guy but I found the New Skete books very helpful as did the three talent dog trainers we work with on commercial shoots. If he is similar then I think his style likely works. Though his ideas on women seem rather whack-o.

Most people, who are not out and out abusive, have problem dogs because of a lack of consistency in their own HUMAN behavior towards the dog during the crucial learning window of puppyhood. These people want dogs as props or furniture. Not as family members.

People are always asking us who trained our dog because he is so good. They assume he is professionally trained. Even the commercial animal people we use assume this. I trained him. And I simply say we were unfailingly consistent in everything we did for a solid six months from the instant we brought him home from the pet rescue. Also he is a border collie and exceptionally easy to train.

We didn't crate him or leave him alone. We gave him regular exercise. We used positive reinforcement mostly. For the first three months every Sunday was dedicated to training him - all day. It started Saturday night - we did not give him dinner. By Sunday he was very hungry and very responsive to the bacon rewards he got during training. He was not allowed to fail, or made to feel that he failed, in that every command was rigged for him to succeed on some level to minimize stress. Over time the commands grew in complexity. Punishment was sequestering him away from the family no matter if he cried or not (though he rarely ever cried or barked). He was only punished once for chasing a cow.

We simply were consistent in what we expected. In how many times we said a command. In how we phrased commands. In when and how he was rewarded and punished. In everything.

He came to work with us and we educated employees how to contribute to his positive training. We were training them along with the dog.

Now the dog IS an employee. He looks at work just like we do - as work and enjoys contributing.

My family was a ranching family in South Eastern Idaho and always had working dogs crucial economic viability of the ranch. We have always had well behaved and happy dogs because we respect the animals and provide consistent leadership to them.

If you can't be consistent then you should not own a dog.
posted by tkchrist at 2:31 PM on September 12, 2006 [1 favorite]

dobbs, have you read the updated (2002) version of the New Skete books or are you referring to the old (1970s) ones? I read the 2002 edition of "How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend" and remember it being a very easy read. They've also modified some of their ideas, but I don't remember the old edition too well, so I can't comment more specifically.
posted by needs more cowbell at 2:46 PM on September 12, 2006

To rail at Cesar because he immigrated illegally

Huh? Mentioning something isn't railing against it. In fact, when I read the article, I took the line to be a positive. That is, that the author was stating as proof that illegal immigrants shouldn't be dismissed because of their status--that and that it was a comment on how someone can "speak dog" regardless of their native tongue. Seemed like a normal journalism 101 hook for coming into an article--hardly anything negative.

needs more cowbell, No, I have not. The editions I was commenting on were (re)published (as "updated") to much acclaim in hardcover in 95, I would guess. I had a different dog of the same breed, then. The covers look the same (the Art of Raising a Puppy is absolutely identical). I remember that the insides were often in columns and had a shitty typeface on non-white paper. Pain to read.
posted by dobbs at 3:09 PM on September 12, 2006

You are all as bad as cat people. Jesus. We do live in the age of overanalysis.
posted by Mayor Curley at 3:52 PM on September 12, 2006

Why do I have the feeling that everyone here that hates-hates-hates Milan has a dog that others would consider a little nuts?
posted by frogan at 5:00 PM on September 12, 2006

I do.

I don't hate Millan. Some of the stuff that he does makes sense, including telling people to exercise their dogs, or even giving people the astounding advice that if they keep letting their dog get away with something, it'll keep doing it.

It's his ways of not letting the dog get away with it that are wrong-headed. Distraction and praise for better activity work well, esp. with good markers like clickers. Negative reinforcement paired with positive reinforcement of good behavior can work well if positive reinforcement isn't working well, or isn't working quickly enough.

Intimidation and alpha-rolling and other fake dominance stuff? Not so much.

The annoyance isn't that Millan is Satan, it's that there are much better people out there to pay attention to.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:31 PM on September 12, 2006

And the thread is complete: MC came in and made a sweeping, negative generalization. We can all go home now.
posted by jennaratrix at 5:44 PM on September 12, 2006

Intimidation and alpha-rolling

Let me see your alpha-roll.
posted by namespan at 6:03 PM on September 12, 2006

If you don't like Cesar, you might want to check out Calling All Pets. It's a show on NPR, although your local NPR station may not carry it. It's a bit like NPR's Car Talk, except it's aimed at pets. People call in reporting a certain kind of behavior in their cat or dog, and the hosts do their best to explain the behavior and offer a solution.
posted by cleverevans at 6:12 PM on September 12, 2006

There was an interesting New Yorker profile by Malcolm Gladwell that was very positive about Milan. It's not online, unfortunately; it also might not be 100% relevant because it mostly focuses on his command of body language, which doesn't necessarily have a whole lot to do with the things he teaches other people.
posted by revfitz at 7:14 PM on September 12, 2006

What Millan does right: dogs need more exercise, it's almost never the case that a dog needs LESS exercise and it's often the case that simply increasing a dog's exercise will improve its behaviour. He's also right that dogs aren't people, they're a different species with different motivations.

That said, his "one size fits all" training method is wrongheaded, and many of his outdated methods are outdated precisely because they have been shown conclusively to be based on faulty information (like the alpha roll, which dogs DO NOT DO unless they are actively trying to kill each other, it is NOT a normal behaviour modification behaviour seen among canid pack members), and/or are simply less effective and more fraught with unwanted side effects than other methods. Dogs only rarely "punish" each other, and actual alpha dogs almost never do, they lead by leading, it's the subordinate dogs which do the squabbling - dogs change each others behaviour most often through withdrawing social contact during unwanted behaviour, and re-establishing it during wanted behaviour, not physical punishment. And besides that, we're not dogs, we're people, we have big primate brains which we can use to find out how dogs learn and how best to train them, and guess what, what works best on every single other animal capable of self-propelled locomotion is also what works on dogs: operant conditioning.

There are better ways to train dogs than "Cesar's Way", and no truly good trainer thinks that there is only one way to train, and eschews other methods which might work better with a given dog. He also outright lies about the effects his methods have (the Great Dane episode is a perfect example of learned helplessness being caused by flooding, yet he pronounces the dog "cured", when the dog is obviously not anything of the sort). Millan is a rock star who believes his own hype, or he's locked into the "brand" he's become, either way he's becoming the McDonald's of dog training.

WRT the Monks, the newest and revised version of How To Be Your Dog's Best Friend is the only book of theirs that I'd recommend (and even then, there are better books out there, like those by Patricia McConnell and Jean Donaldson), and in it they specifically recommend AGAINST the more extreme things they recommend in their earlier books (like "alpha rolls") - the Monks are intelligent and humble enough to change their opinions in light of convincing evidence which challenges them, too bad Cesar Millan can't seem to do the same.
posted by biscotti at 8:29 PM on September 12, 2006 [1 favorite]

MC came in and made a sweeping, negative generalization. We can all go home now.

Not until we are absolutely sure that our dogs got enough niacin. Jesus, I worry so much about my dog's B-complex intake. Some guy on the TV gave some recommended daily allowance that he says is gospel, but frankly I think the guy's a nutcase and I said so in my blog. People have been living with dogs for 8,000 years or so, but modern people like me have only had their primary, secondary and tiertiary needs provided for in recent times. Micromanaging my dog is new and scary to me.
posted by Mayor Curley at 9:32 PM on September 12, 2006

Biscotti, your statement is very misleading. Where is Milan suggesting to use alpha rolls? He's not. You've proven what I was suggesting above, you're equating Ceasar's suggestion of "dominance" with forcing over the top submissive behavior on the dog by threatening the dogs very existance. Caesar's methods more equate dominance with "being the leader". Anyone that has watched his show can see that.

A great example. One one episode, there was an overly aggressive rottweiler. When he came to the owners house, the dog tried to jump all over him and "love" him. He gentle pushed it away with one hand without looking at the dog until the dog calmed down. That was what he said was showing the dog he was dominant; not allowing it in his space and withdrawing from the situation until the dog behaved. EXACTLY what you described above.

I don't mind that people disagree with his methods, anyone that's every worked with animals knows there is more than one right way to do things. However, what bothers me is a majority that do I have to wonder if they've ever seen more than one of his shows.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:06 PM on September 12, 2006

like the alpha roll, which dogs DO NOT DO unless they are actively trying to kill each other, it is NOT a normal behaviour modification behaviour seen among canid pack members

I had to finally sign-up to MeFi just so that I could comment on this. We have a pack of (currently three) male dogs and they do exhibit the alpha roll in their normal behavior.

Especially our oldest, strongly dominant male, uses it when the younger dogs don't respond to lesser cues of leadership assertion.

Being in Finland, I haven't seen any of Ceasar's shows, but working with our dogs in their intended use (hunting retrievers) has clearly shown that just one method won't work. But the important message that Ceasar seems to be getting through is that dogs are not humans and they act according to a different rule structure. I especially liked Terrierman's writeup on the matter.

What separates us as humans is that we can adapt to different behavior patterns better than any other species. Dogs generally have a hardwired, natural way, of how to adjust their behavior. Dominance, or leadership, is an integral part of a dogs behavior just like in any other species that relies on packs. And if you watch a pack of dogs (or horses etc.) you'll see positive and negative reinforcement in use.

BTW, what's interesting is that the methods used by horse whisperers are very similar. They all emphasize the need for leadership over the animal (e.g. controlling when the animal can approach you and how) and use negative reinforcement if needed. Why is horse whispering good and dog training via leadership (or dominance) inherently wrong or outdated?
posted by raminm at 4:53 AM on September 14, 2006

Where is Milan suggesting to use alpha rolls

Watch the episode with the White German Shepherd with aggression issues. He has children alpha rolling it.

We have a pack of (currently three) male dogs and they do exhibit the alpha roll in their normal behavior.

I'd bet you that what you're actually seeing is the subordinate dogs rolling over, NOT the alpha dog forcibly rolling them over. See here, and here.
posted by biscotti at 5:28 AM on September 14, 2006

No, there have been cases in which the oldest one really rolls the younger ones over. He has to work to achieve his goal, because or middle dog freezes in place. Our youngest (still a puppy basically) is very active in showing the subordinate dog rolling over.
posted by raminm at 8:50 AM on September 14, 2006

Why is horse whispering good and dog training via leadership (or dominance) inherently wrong or outdated?

(1) Has anyone here said that horse whispering is great?

(2) Horses are not dogs. Applying horse psychology to dogs is about as useful as applying human psychology to dogs or applying astrology to dogs.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:49 AM on September 14, 2006

I think the problem here is that you're all reacting to Ceasar Millan as if he is a dog trainer. I've seen the show, and he specifically states that he is NOT a dog trainer, he is a dog psychologist. His job is to correct behavioral problems in dogs, not train them to sit, stay, fetch.
posted by geeky at 11:04 AM on September 14, 2006

he is NOT a dog trainer, he is a dog psychologist

And "we're" all saying that there are far better dog psychologists, people who do actual no-shit research into dog psychology, dog behavior, and the treatment of dog misbehavior.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:48 AM on September 14, 2006

I'm sooo happy SOMEONE parodied the dog whisper(er) Love the show but think it's sooo ripe for a parody. Although Vindaloo had a great link, I would've liked a more true to life impression w/more parodies of certain expressions. Maybe theat's ill-advised in a legal sort of way. As always South Park did an awesome version. They get looser and looser - gotta love it. Last thought I had was of a B&D whisperer - SNL type skit I guess... Only ppl that could pull it off.

In Cesar's defense he has a great grasp of the English language but the pattern of his English can be intrinsically comic at times, zero detriment.
posted by prodevel at 8:47 PM on September 23, 2006