veganimae

May 21, 2007 8:34 AM

Death by Veganism. "I was once a vegan. But well before I became pregnant, I concluded that a vegan pregnancy was irresponsible. You cannot create and nourish a robust baby merely on foods from plants.

Indigenous cuisines offer clues about what humans, naturally omnivorous, need to survive, reproduce and grow: traditional vegetarian diets, as in India, invariably include dairy and eggs for complete protein, essential fats and vitamins. There are no vegan societies for a simple reason: a vegan diet is not adequate in the long run."
posted by four panels (312 comments total)

I think this is going to turn out like a circumcision/religion post.
posted by Pollomacho at 8:39 AM on May 21, 2007

Non-registration link.
posted by four panels at 8:41 AM on May 21, 2007

Whatever debate falls out of this, the article is lame (and the vegan diet link is broken). It's no more than an opinion piece which feigns scientific support.

Yes, being a vegan requires more responsibility than many are aware, but I know a lot of very healthy vegans. I could be convinced that veganism isn't healthy, but I'd want a lot of significant studies first.
posted by Alex404 at 8:44 AM on May 21, 2007 [3 favorites]

I will only eat circumcised, declawed vegans.
posted by everichon at 8:44 AM on May 21, 2007 [15 favorites]

I think you're right, Pollomacho. I think I'm going to skip the "granola" mommy lists today.
posted by lysdexic at 8:45 AM on May 21, 2007

At least she's not fat.
posted by MrMoonPie at 8:45 AM on May 21, 2007

Yeah... I think it is difficult to go vegan healthfully, but if you really put some effort into it, you won't necessarily become emaciated and malnourished. There are some grains, like quinoa, that are apparently complete proteins, though I'll admit I don't know anyone who eats the pounds and pounds of quinoa it would take to get enough of all the relevant amino acids.

But the parents from the first link fed their kid "mainly soy milk and apple juice," which just sounds like "bad parenting" period, not "bad vegan parenting."
posted by rkent at 8:46 AM on May 21, 2007

THe biggest problem I see with veganism, from a strictly nutritional perspective, is that there is no reliable vegan source of vitamin B12. You can pretty much cover everything else, but of course you'll have to get some of your chow shipped from afar, which is a whole other issue.

Death by veganism is a needlessly inflammatory headline though; the poor infant was killed by neglect and ignorance.
posted by Mister_A at 8:47 AM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

So does anyone who pretends to know anything about nutrition care to offer some thoughts about the advisability of raising a child as a vegan from birth?

... Or should we just do a round and round pee fight about how delicious horse sashimi is?
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:47 AM on May 21, 2007

That Crown Shakur story is tragic, but he did not die because his parents kept him on a vegan diet, he died because they only gave him soy milk and apple juice and clearly had no concept of how to take care of another living being. In fact, they don't know how to take care of themselves, being as the apple juice & soy milk were the *only* foods in the house. His parents also never took him to see a doctor in his life, and are just plain clearly psychotic and/or total imbeciles.

The typical vegan diet contains a much wider variety of foods than apple juice & soy milk can provide. A great example of how diverse the options for a vegan child can be is the site Vegan Lunchbox.

I know enough vegans who are healthy and fit and who have raised healthy and robust children to believe that if you are smart about nutrition, you can be just as healthy on a vegan diet than on an omnivorous diet. Disclaimer: IANAV
posted by tastybrains at 8:48 AM on May 21, 2007 [9 favorites]

I'm not a vegan, though I am interested in vegetarianism. I'm sure there are people out there who are vegans because they think that's what's "natural" (though even if true, that wouldn't make it good). But I think the majority do it because they either don't like how food animals are treated or because cutting out the cattle middle man on the way from sun to plant to humans increases efficiency and is more sustainable. By those criteria, there is no shame in being vegan when possible and eating meat (or whatever) when pregnant or even feeling a little rundown.

Criticizing vegetarians for eating meat sometimes is like criticizing the guy with solar panels on his roof and a hybrid in his driveway for taking hot showers. He's doing what he can and it's probably more than you.
posted by DU at 8:49 AM on May 21, 2007 [16 favorites]

Divine_Wino, there is no way to raise a child as vegan from birth. The best food for an infant is mother's milk; barring that, you must use formula. There is no question about this. Perhaps a vegan formula can be devised, but I rather doubt it. At this time, your options are breast milk, formula, or killing your baby.
posted by Mister_A at 8:50 AM on May 21, 2007

This is an issue of bad parenting, not an issue of diet. Is that really so hard to see?
posted by dead_ at 8:51 AM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Mister_A: breast milk is vegan.
posted by dead_ at 8:53 AM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Mister_A, I don't think many vegans consider voluntarily given human breast milk to be non-vegan.
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 8:54 AM on May 21, 2007

Mister_A: veganism includes breast-feeding and I have a number of friends raised vegan from birth now healthily into their thirties.
posted by Abiezer at 8:55 AM on May 21, 2007

Is there an echo in here?
posted by dead_ at 8:55 AM on May 21, 2007

Hey, Mister_A!
posted by Abiezer at 8:55 AM on May 21, 2007

Honestly, even though breast milk is technically not vegan, I doubt most vegans would have a problem with it, since the reasoning behind most vegans I know is that they do it to prevent exploitation of animals and to avoid the hormones / crap that are in animal based products. These issues would not apply to breast milk.

Also, there are plenty of soy-based baby formulas on the market. Just Googling for it sent me to this product, which appears to be vegan. I am sure there are others as well.
posted by tastybrains at 8:56 AM on May 21, 2007

Sorry, but this post has to go. It's not about whether I agree with you or not, it's that this would work better in a blog.
posted by serazin at 8:56 AM on May 21, 2007

Wait--baby formula uses animal products?
posted by DU at 8:56 AM on May 21, 2007

Mister_A: I was going to point this out, but I could not remember where I heard it. Do you have a source?
posted by ObscureReferenceMan at 8:56 AM on May 21, 2007

Well it is meant to be an echo chamber, right? Right?
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 8:57 AM on May 21, 2007

I'm raising my baby on a diet of prayer, Guinness extra cold, Mormon tea and fried chicken and one day she is going to be double president of the United States, so watch out vegan weirdos.
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:57 AM on May 21, 2007 [15 favorites]

Again, breast milk is vegan. Repeat after me, breast milk is vegan. Breast milk is made by a mother's body for one thing and one thing only: to feed a human infant. Breast milk is vegan.
posted by dead_ at 8:57 AM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Somebody should've told the Shakurs, eh? It's a semantic point. The common definition of vegan is "not containing animal products, or produced by animals".

Are boogers vegan? What about your own toenails?
posted by Mister_A at 8:58 AM on May 21, 2007

Re: the B12 issue.

B12 is found in the stomachs of animals, including our own stomachs. The animals get it there by eating unwashed plants and sea-vegetables like nori, for example. We also can get it from these same sources, and what's great about B12 is that you only need a few micrograms a day to be healthy.

So the choice is, don't wash all your produce and eat some bacteria, eat some sea vegetables, eat some fortified foods, or simply supplement it.
posted by dead_ at 8:59 AM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

How about breast milk from caged mothers?
posted by RokkitNite at 8:59 AM on May 21, 2007 [8 favorites]

If you're going to take B12 supplements, you'd better do your homework, as most of these come from animals.

Also: This is really annoying.
posted by Mister_A at 9:02 AM on May 21, 2007

Human faeces can contain significant B12. A study has shown that a group of Iranian vegans obtained adequate B12 from unwashed vegetables which had been fertilised with human manure. Faecal contamination of vegetables and other plant foods can make a significant contribution to dietary needs, particularly in areas where hygiene standards may be low. This may be responsible for the lack of aneamia due to B12 deficiency in vegan communities in developing countries.

Good sources of vitamin B12 for vegetarians are dairy products or free-range eggs. ½ pint of milk (full fat or semi skimmed) contains 1.2 µg. A slice of vegetarian cheddar cheese (40g) contains 0.5 µg. A boiled egg contains 0.7 µg. Fermentation in the manufacture of yoghurt destroys much of the B12 present. Boiling milk can also destroy much of the B12.

Yummy!
posted by Mister_A at 9:04 AM on May 21, 2007

Of course kids can be raised on soy milk. What happens if it a newborn has an extreme dairy allergy? You just have to do better than "soy milk and apple juice" and keep a close eye on health.

Personally, I can't imagine a life where I don't consume tasty flesh, but that child's death is the fault of stupidity, not vegan diet.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 9:04 AM on May 21, 2007

Mister_A, speaking of annoying, how about baseless, ignorant statements like this one:

there is no way to raise a child as vegan from birth
posted by dead_ at 9:05 AM on May 21, 2007

Kids can be raised on soy milk, infants can not be. Breast milk is the best milk, baby.
posted by Mister_A at 9:05 AM on May 21, 2007

Mister_A: veganism includes breast-feeding and I have a number of friends raised vegan from birth now healthily into their thirties.

Dude, if they're still breastfeeding at thirty I don't think that's healthy at all. You granola hippies are fucked up.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 9:07 AM on May 21, 2007 [5 favorites]

The infant mortality rate in the United States is more than double that in Sweden or Japan. I never knew it was because of the vegans. I mean, why else would the NY Times devote so much page valuable space to it?
posted by Staggering Jack at 9:07 AM on May 21, 2007

I plan to have to have twins, so the stronger child can sustain himself on the flesh of the weaker.
posted by jonmc at 9:11 AM on May 21, 2007 [4 favorites]

Cows are nature's way of turning vegetables into real food.
posted by Malor at 9:12 AM on May 21, 2007 [13 favorites]

I'm fairly naive on this subject, but I would hope that -- if it is indeed safe to raise an infant on a vegan diet -- some reputable* pediatrician(s) has/have provided literature on how best to do so. (Literature with which these two complete idiots were obviously not familiar.)

(*i.e., with real medical degrees from real universities)
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:13 AM on May 21, 2007

Vegans eat Marmite for their B12. Much tastier than human faeces.
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 9:13 AM on May 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

The literature is out there, but as with all segments of the population--vegan or not--idiots exist, and they will do astoundingly idiotic things.
posted by dead_ at 9:14 AM on May 21, 2007

Yeah, Mister_A, I hate to break it to you, but just as most meat-eaters don't actually kill their cattle to make a burger, vegans don't eat shit to get B12. But keep on with the slander.
posted by dead_ at 9:16 AM on May 21, 2007

Would you consider reading the whole thread and not acting like a douchebag, dead_? How about looking at the question I was answering? My answer specifically addresses the needs of infants. In your official big book of veganism, breast milk, the product of an animal, is an exception to the commonly understood vegan rule - no animal products. I do not have a current copy of the updated big book of veganism, and I understood divine_wino's question to be, "can you raise a kid without ever giving him/her any sort of animal products, including breast milk?" I believe the answer is no. I also believe that divine_wino's question is theoretical, not a real-world consideration of any rational person. My belief is not baseless, but I feel no compulsion to discuss my qualifications for making this assessment.

Your dogmatic hectoring ignores the spirit of the question and the answer, and speaks volumes about your insecurity and reflexive defensiveness on this subject.

Anyway, go ahead and eat shit, it's a great source of B12, and vegan to boot (apparently).
posted by Mister_A at 9:16 AM on May 21, 2007 [4 favorites]

Literature with which these two complete idiots were obviously not familiar.

That's where it all went wrong with these two. Being a vegan requires time, effort, money and a minimum IQ. Well, maybe you could get away with just three out of four, but not everybody has even that.
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 9:16 AM on May 21, 2007

I find it strange that the Atlanta Journal has to explain what veganism is.
posted by altolinguistic at 9:17 AM on May 21, 2007

I guess breast milk would be torture for the human mother, and the milk would technically be coming from an animal.

Bleh. Vegans.
posted by triolus at 9:18 AM on May 21, 2007

Vegans eat Marmite for their B12.

Won't somebody think of the yeast?!?
posted by Pollomacho at 9:18 AM on May 21, 2007 [3 favorites]

So, so far we have learned that four panels won't be raising vegan kids; Mister_A knows fuck all about what veganism is or isn't; and XQUZYPHYR can't parse a perfectly decent sentence. Bastard.
posted by Abiezer at 9:18 AM on May 21, 2007

Mister_A, apologies for missing the theoretical nature of divine_who's question. It wasn't my intention for my comments to come off as a personal attack on you. Honestly.

And I get my B12 from yeast, not poop.
posted by dead_ at 9:20 AM on May 21, 2007

OK then. Sorry 'bout the douchebag thing. Friends?
posted by Mister_A at 9:21 AM on May 21, 2007

Here's a vegan/veg question I always had: if nanotechnology ever progresses to the Diamond Age level where you can use a 'food compiler,' would it be morally OK (health concerns aside) to eat nano-engineered meat? I mean no animals were harmed, but it's still meat.
posted by jonmc at 9:22 AM on May 21, 2007

Bugger, and I just got in with the personal attacks as the lovin' was starting. T-t-t-timing!
posted by Abiezer at 9:22 AM on May 21, 2007

Of course, just try not to spray any blood on me when you're slaughtering a cow for your burger, and I'll promise not to smear any feces on you when I'm rooting around for B12 ;)
posted by dead_ at 9:23 AM on May 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

I'm really glad you guys worked this out. Group hug?
posted by tastybrains at 9:24 AM on May 21, 2007

Anyway, go ahead and eat shit, it's a great source of B12, and vegan to boot (apparently).

LOL. Thanks Mister_A for saving this thread with that meaty and satisfying comment.
posted by three blind mice at 9:26 AM on May 21, 2007

How about breast milk from caged mothers?

I get my kid's milk from cage-free genetically modified mothers (NSFW).
posted by peeedro at 9:28 AM on May 21, 2007

Actually just for the sake of history I was assuming breast milk from a vegan mother in my question, which was theoretical. I mean, is it possible to raise a child as a vegan from birth, assuming the child is breastfed by a vegan mother and have that child get proper nutrition? The op-ed says no, I don't necessarily believe that, so I am curious to see what the dissent consists of.

Nobody need worry that I will deprive my baby of proper nutrients, for I have no baby and if I did have a baby she would eat her fill of seal liver and the various mulched organ pies that are necessary to sustain human life.
posted by Divine_Wino at 9:29 AM on May 21, 2007

Oh wow. This will surely wendell.

I've got the longboat stocked with popcorn. Buttery delicious popcorn. Mmmm. Smell the buuuuttttteeeeeeerrrrr. It comes from cows. Sweet sweet cows.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 9:29 AM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Here's a vegan/veg question I always had: if nanotechnology ever progresses to the Diamond Age level where you can use a 'food compiler,' would it be morally OK (health concerns aside) to eat nano-engineered meat? I mean no animals were harmed, but it's still meat.

That sounds similar to computer generated child-porn...
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 9:31 AM on May 21, 2007

Not to derail the . . whatever is going on here -- but my question would really be about the NYT article's statement that vegan breastmilk may be deficient. Doctor in the house? Someone who has access to actual medical data? Because, all the vegan jokes aside, I think this is actually pretty fascinating.
posted by Medieval Maven at 9:31 AM on May 21, 2007

Are there vegan zombies?

"Toofuuuu, Toooofu..." They'd still kill people of course, 'cause that's part of being a zombie, but the vombies would do it to drink the bone marrow or something. Or maybe just attack health food stores. Or health food nuts, which would be much cooler.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:32 AM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Divine_Wino: here's one place with information.
posted by Abiezer at 9:33 AM on May 21, 2007

BB: Surely you meant... graaaaaaaains?
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 9:34 AM on May 21, 2007 [31 favorites]

If breast milk is vegan because a human isn't an "animal," what about cannibalism? Is that vegan? If you say "no" because the human in that case isn't willingly allowing himself to be eaten - let me remind you of that nutcase in Germany who did, in fact, allow himself to be eaten by some other wacko. Apparently, he was delicious.

[There is a tiny shred of seriousness here: Where do you draw the line. Yeast? They're alive. What about bacteria? Do you take antibiotics if you're a vegan?]
posted by grapefruitmoon at 9:34 AM on May 21, 2007

Ah, so to address the true intent of your question, divine_wino, yes, I am certain you can raise a kid vegan as you describe, provided you have a very good grasp of how to satisfy his/her nutritional requirements.
posted by Mister_A at 9:34 AM on May 21, 2007

...if I did have a baby she would eat her fill of seal liver...

That might be irresponsible parenting as well.
posted by peeedro at 9:35 AM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Compare:

"food is more important than fashion"

"babies are built from protein, calcium, cholesterol and fish oil"

Now, I'm not suggesting that fish oils do not have measurable health benefits, but the current idea that they are the foundations of all wellbeing and genius smacks of.....what's the word...ah yes, "fashion".

Another "nutritionist" jumping on the diet obsessed bandwagon of a decadent culture.
posted by howfar at 9:35 AM on May 21, 2007

I'll be back for the show after I go slaughter my lunch.

Mmmm Lunch.
posted by spitbull at 9:36 AM on May 21, 2007

Vegans eat Marmite for their B12. Much tastier than human faeces.

Not by much. That stuff tastes like how I imagine cat shit tastes. Just the smell makes me gag.

I think that breast milk is ethical, and smart to feed your baby, whether or not you are vegan. But it isn't "vegan" in the sense of "not coming from animals."

And that is the real problem with veganism -- not health concerns (it's not that hard for relatively well-off people to put together extremely healthy vegan diets, although I do worry about babies and toddlers being fed this way, because their dietary needs are so much more urgent than are adults') but rather the way it is endlessly parsed. Lettuce is vegan, but what about lettuce grown using blood and bone fertilizer? Back when I was a vegan, we were totally reliant on what were not much better than oral legends to figure out what was ok and what was not ok, and I think we made some pretty wacky choices as a result. (There are definitely non-crazy ways to be vegan, but not many of the vegans I know take those paths; I'd go so far as to say that the parsing and controlling of food into categories is for many people the secret pleasure of veganism.)
posted by Forktine at 9:36 AM on May 21, 2007

So grapefruit moon, I have no doubt the popcorn is "buttery" but what are the odds of being able to find some anywhere with actual butter on it?

Unless you made it yourself. Hippie.
posted by hermitosis at 9:38 AM on May 21, 2007

grapefruitmoon, yes, voluntary cannibalism is perfectly vegan! And I think the vegan party line on yeast and bacteria is that it's OK to kill them, because they're not animals. But yeah, there's a line drawing problem because that argument is analogous to a meat-eater saying "Well then, I eat cows because cows are not human!"
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 9:38 AM on May 21, 2007

I am now RTFA.

The fact remains, though, that humans prefer animal proteins and fats to cereals and tubers, because they contain all the essential amino acids needed for life in the right ratio.

Um. I also prefer animal fats to tubers because they're a lot tastier. YMMV.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 9:38 AM on May 21, 2007

grapefruitmoon: it's different for every vegan, and many differ on the point where they draw the line--and there is considerable argument within the various vegan communities. However, yeast is not a point of contention, as yeast isn't an animal, it's a fungi!

I personally draw the line at suffering--that is, if it can suffer, I can't eat it. A lot of vegans disagree with this and adopt a much more blanket idea involving exploitation and biological definitions to define their eating habits. I think it just depends a lot on the person, which is why labels like "vegan" don't do much other than pigeonhole the entire animal-rights movement itslef.
posted by dead_ at 9:40 AM on May 21, 2007

This is way better than TFA anyway grapefruitmoon.
posted by Mister_A at 9:42 AM on May 21, 2007

Forktine, I believe that says less about the insanity of veganism and more about the insanity of a consumer marketplace in which we know next to nothing about the journey our food has made from its origin to our mouths. The reason I almost never eat meat (though I certainly enjoy it) is that I rarely am provided with any information about where it came from etc., and simply refuse at this point to blindly trust purveyors to care what I'm ingesting as long as I don't die on the spot and tip well.
posted by hermitosis at 9:44 AM on May 21, 2007

hoverboards dont work on water:Vegans eat Marmite for their B12. Much tastier than human faeces.

By what margin?
posted by dr_dank at 9:44 AM on May 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

I have earned the right to say:

MetaFilter: Much tastier than human faeces.
posted by Mister_A at 9:45 AM on May 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

I give my kids beer and cigarettes to complement their vegan diets. They're also allowed to drink the blood from any meat-eating kids they beat up at school.
posted by Abiezer at 9:46 AM on May 21, 2007 [3 favorites]

Veganism is an ethos, not a diet. And that's what pisses me off about vegans that mock others for not understanding the supposed "vegan diet".

I have lived in a very crunchy co-op housing system for the last four years and have lived with many self-declared vegans during that time. Among the significant groups of vegans I have lived with are groups that believe:

1. Only locally grown organic vegetables can be considered vegan, so no meat, no dairy, nothing from the supermarket, and no citrus fruit or cane sugar of any kind.

2. Meat and dairy are considered vegan if they're "dumpstered", i.e. the food would go to waste otherwise.

3. Human bodily fluids (breast milk, semen) are vegan if given voluntarily.

4. Human bodily fluids are never vegan under any circumstances.

Frankly, most of these groups of vegans cared more about forming political factions and rallying against the meat-eaters in their midst than they did about eating a healthful diet, building a community, or enacting positive change on any level anywhere.
posted by rockabilly_pete at 9:46 AM on May 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

I was vegetarian for years in my 20s. One day, after I had been feeling weak for a bit, I suddenly started sneezing blood. Freaked out, I went to the doctor. I had some kind of bacterial infection & had become anemic. So under doctor's orders I had to go out and order myself a freaking steak.

Feeling better nowadays. I owe it all to carne asada burritos. YUMMMMM.
posted by miss lynnster at 9:47 AM on May 21, 2007

Forktine, I think you have a point about the controlling and categorisation of food. I've often wondered if the higher prevalence of vegetarianism and veganism among women is linked less to feminine compassion for animals than to the female tendency toward eating disorders. This is not to suggest that vegetarianism is an eating disorder, but the two phenomena seem to tick a lot of the same boxes in certain people.

I once knew a girl who became vegetarian after she "realised [she] had only eaten tomato soup for a week". An extreme example, certainly, and mere anecdotal, but it did set me to wondering.

This line of enquiry seems to have particular potential if one accepts the argument that eating disorders are more about personal control than simple slimness.

One could fairly easily construct a piece of research into this, now that I come to think about it.
posted by howfar at 9:47 AM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Oh, I almost forgot... LOLVEGANZ.
posted by miss lynnster at 9:48 AM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

howfar: that's a very astute comment, and there's actually some research to back up the link between vegetarianism/veganism and eating disorders, as the highly-restrictive dietary guidelines they provide give people a sort of camouflage for their (lack of) eating habits. I've known more than a few people who adopted those diets to mask their much bigger issues with food.
posted by dead_ at 9:51 AM on May 21, 2007

I know loads of vegan kids - breastmilk aside, which their parents consider vegan. They seem damn healthy to me.

I expect their parents spend more time ensuring that they get a balanced diet than most of the local chav scum existing on pie and chips, anyway.
posted by handee at 9:57 AM on May 21, 2007

hoverboards, that's just about the most perfect thing ever.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:07 AM on May 21, 2007

The opinion piece is right. It's on the money.

We all know about vegan or vegetarian children who are mentally or physically retarded... Don't we? I mean, you read about it all the time in newspapers... Don't we? All the children's charities are campaigning against vegetarian and vegan parents because their diet choices are cruel to kids... Aren't they?

I know a lot of stupid vegan and vegetarian people, but I don't think that's caused by their diet. That was present before they switched their eating habits.

Vegetarianism and veganism are perfectly healthy choices, provided you know what you're doing (I speak as a failed vegan but current non-egg eating vegetarian). But you do have to pay more attention to what you eat. It's not as "automatic" as being a meat eater.

Eating meat is savage. There's no two ways about it. Technology has advanced enough so that we can choose not to. We're lucky.

This article is nonsense. It shows the failings of opinion pieces when applied to a topic like this.
posted by humblepigeon at 10:07 AM on May 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

The reason I almost never eat meat (though I certainly enjoy it) is that I rarely am provided with any information about where it came from etc., and simply refuse at this point to blindly trust purveyors to care what I'm ingesting as long as I don't die on the spot and tip well.

One of the nice impacts of the mad cow scandal, combined with the growing "buy local" and organic food industries, is that it is increasingly easy in most US and European cities to buy meat where you do in fact know its path from birth to steak. At the fancier end you can buy pasture raised, grass-fed, organic meat; at the cheap end you can buy meat from 4-H kids and hobby farmers who put little ads in the classified section of the local paper. Either way, you are getting fairly believable assurances of ethical treatment and post-slaughter hygiene. For me, the ethical problems with factory farming are pretty significant, but I don't have an ethical problem with eating meat per se, so buying meat from small-scale local producers solves the problem.

This is a lot of what I was responding to when I had my vegan period in my late teens/early twenties, as well as just trying to exert control over one part of my life when so much was controlled by others. So now I can scratch that control itch, while eating really good steaks and sausages and roast chicken. And I'm happy to cook vegan food when vegan friends come over (although the strictest vegans I know are kind of like very observant Jews, and won't eat food prepared in pots that have been rendered dietarily impure (such as by being used to cook meat)).
posted by Forktine at 10:10 AM on May 21, 2007

Yeast? They're alive. What about bacteria?

Yeast and bacteria are not animals. Thus, eating them is vegan, just like eating plants (which are also alive) is.
posted by tastybrains at 10:12 AM on May 21, 2007

THe biggest problem I see with veganism, from a strictly nutritional perspective, is that there is no reliable vegan source of vitamin B12.

Think again. It can be harvested from certain bacteria. This is "reliable" enough for people like me to be able to buy tablets from our local health-food shop.
posted by humblepigeon at 10:13 AM on May 21, 2007

The very fact that there has been any thought given as to whether human breast milk is "vegan" or not brings the entire idea into question. Seriously.

And these parents are criminals, pure and simple.
posted by Ynoxas at 10:16 AM on May 21, 2007

What a uselessly inflamatory post.

The very fact that there has been any thought given as to whether human breast milk is "vegan" or not brings the entire idea into question. Seriously.

Responsible vegans aren't the ones wondering about whether or not breastmilk is vegan, we all know it is and happily give our kids breastmilk. It's the dumbfuck carnivores who don't actually understand veganism that are questioning whether or not it is. And that's hardly a damning indictment of the vegan diet.
posted by cmonkey at 10:19 AM on May 21, 2007 [4 favorites]

I mean, is it possible to raise a child as a vegan from birth, assuming the child is breastfed by a vegan mother and have that child get proper nutrition?

Yes, of course. A friend of mine is a second-generation vegan, and her son -- a four-year-old lifelong vegan -- is doing fine. My friend is interested in nutrition and enjoys cooking, so their family eats well. (If my family became vegans, on the other hand, we'd be living on peanut butter sandwiches and Clif Bars. Which is awfully close to what my four-year-old lifelong omnivore does live on, come to think of it...)
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:21 AM on May 21, 2007

Who needs meat when you can have beer? Plenty of B12. If only they would have raised that baby on hefeweizen instead of apple juice.
posted by team lowkey at 10:26 AM on May 21, 2007

Yeast and bacteria are not animals.

So I just made this "Monostat is Murder" picket sign for nothing?
posted by dr_dank at 10:26 AM on May 21, 2007 [8 favorites]

I did indeed make the popcorn myself. Over the campfire where I lovingly roasted it. I also made the butter myself from the milk of the cow that I keep in my backyard.

This is what happens when you don't have a microwave.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 10:26 AM on May 21, 2007

Vegans are pussies; Jainists are hardcore.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:35 AM on May 21, 2007

I personally draw the line at suffering--that is, if it can suffer, I can't eat it.

It's a good thing you never ate a meal with me when I was seven years old. Not only would I act out the suffering of my bunny-shaped pancakes, but for some reason, I did the same for broccoli. Yep, anytime anyone cut up some broccoli I would scream in fake agony.

Steak though? I was down with that. Cut all the steak you want, I'm not gonna complain.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 10:36 AM on May 21, 2007

adult veganism is different from child veganism in one important respect: the adult has made a conscious decision after presumably considering the drawbacks. there are no child vegans in this sense, but merely subjects of their parents' food philosophy, for better or worse.
posted by bruce at 10:38 AM on May 21, 2007 [3 favorites]

there are no child vegans in this sense, but merely subjects of their parents' food philosophy, for better or worse.

One could apply the exact same logic to child omnivores.

Either way, it's invalid.
posted by cmgonzalez at 10:45 AM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Yeah, cmgonzalez beat me to it. Same argument for pretty much any adult behavior imposed on children.
posted by dead_ at 10:47 AM on May 21, 2007

Where do you draw the line. Yeast? They're alive.

*looks at beer*

I can hear the Silence of The Yeast....
posted by jonmc at 10:48 AM on May 21, 2007

yes, one could apply the exact same logic to child omnivores, but it isn't invalid. human omnivorism is the norm. for the last million years, our ancestors have been clubbing, spearing and lately shooting other animals and eating their meat. if you're over eighteen and want to take on malnutrition, be my guest. i don't tell you what to eat, and you better not tell me what to eat. i am not a nutrition expert, so i can't tell you if an all-vegan diet is safe for young children, but i can tell you that the law places the onus on you, the parent, to supply adequate nutrition to your child, and i support this law.
posted by bruce at 10:55 AM on May 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

veganomie?
posted by ZenMasterThis at 11:00 AM on May 21, 2007

...and, um, Yeasts are a growth form of eukaryotic microorganisms classified in the kingdom Fungi.

As a brewer, one must know this stuff.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 11:03 AM on May 21, 2007

But bruce, it is invalid. Even if humans have been omnivores for millions of years, "the adult has made a conscious decision after presumably considering the drawbacks" of that food philosophy--regardless of it's historical prevalence in one culture or another. That goes for vegans, omnivores, carnivores, fruitarians, cannibals, whatever. As you say, the children are still "subjects of their parents' food philosophy, for better or worse." What is or isn't "the norm" has nothing to do with infants being helpless to accept their parents' food philosophy.
posted by dead_ at 11:07 AM on May 21, 2007

It's the dumbfuck carnivores who don't actually understand veganism that are questioning whether or not it is. And that's hardly a damning indictment of the vegan diet.
posted by cmonkey at 12:19 PM on May 21

Actually, no it's not carnivores, and yes it is a damning indictment, but thanks for trying.

The story is about vegan parents who enforced their strict interpretation to their infant's diet. They were not carnivores, and yet were clearly dumbfucks. Also, eating meat does not, in and of itself, make one a dumbfuck so consider that the next time you want to accuse someone of being "uselessly inflammatory".

The problem is that veganism is not a science, it is a philosophy. As demonstrated above, even its adherents cannot adequately describe or define it. Where that becomes a problem is parents who, due to their ignorance, harm their children through pursuit of this philosophy.

Note I take the same stance with parents who deny their children medical care when needed due to a religious philosophy.

One could apply the exact same logic to child omnivores.

Either way, it's invalid.
posted by cmgonzalez at 12:45 PM on May 21

No, it's not the same thing.

There are well demonstrated groups of objects in this world that have been shown to be safe, and beneficial, for human consumption.

In the absence of being told otherwise, children will (eventually) probably eat these items if presented the opportunity.

Veganism excludes objects that are perfectly nutritious from a child's diet based on, as seen above, often on wildly varying and completely arbitrary criteria.

Humans are omnivores by nature. We are biologically able to break down, process, and extract nutrition from both meat and vegetable food items, and some minerals. Astounding really.

But humans are not "taught" to be omnivores, we are omnivores by our very nature. If you don't like it, take it up with the enzymes in your body, not me.
posted by Ynoxas at 11:08 AM on May 21, 2007 [3 favorites]

Ynoxas - parents choose which values to instill in their children.

If a child is raised vegetarian or vegan based on a value decision by parents, that's as perfectly valid an upbringing as more traditional values.

A child might grow up and change his or her lifestyle, but that happens with other values as well (see: religion).

Humans are natural omnivores, but if raised vegetarian or vegan, those foods won't seem natural to that particular person. We're an adaptable species.
posted by cmgonzalez at 11:16 AM on May 21, 2007

Veganism excludes objects that are perfectly nutritious from a child's diet based on, as seen above, often on wildly varying and completely arbitrary criteria.

I'm not sure I'd call it wildly varying. Most vegans agree on the major tenets of the philosophy: that one shouldn't eat animals or exploit them for food. It's just that, as with most subcultures (across any discipline, religion, belief, whatever) the devil's in the details, and people will quibble over those details (such as honey, breastmilk, etc). Hardly arbitrary--just a process of refinement that all intelligent groups go through when formulating a coherent position on anything really.

Humans are omnivores by nature. We are biologically able to break down, process, and extract nutrition from both meat and vegetable food items, and some minerals. Astounding really.

I don't really want to get sucked into the "omnivores by nature" argument, but I would mention something truly astounding: the efficiency of a digestive system full of nothing but plants versus a digestive system full of rotting flesh. Something that really has to be experienced to understand.
posted by dead_ at 11:18 AM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

this thread has made me grateful that my mother was an omnivore as i sit here recalling her best dishes, the ham in her thick green split pea soup, the magic pork chops with tomatoes, cheese and rice, the prime ribs, fried chicken and coquilles st. jacques. what dishes will a vegan child remember when he gets to be my age, the flaxseed oil on quinoa granules with no butter, yogurt or hollandaise sauce? many of us who love cooking and eating regard vegan children as intentionally impoverished.
posted by bruce at 11:20 AM on May 21, 2007

And that is a culturally insensitive position to take, bruce, much akin to looking at an Amazonian tribe as scientifically and technologically impoverished because they don't have TV or cars. Fortunately for them, and for vegans, the value judgments of others are irrelevant to their lives, and they will undoubtedly look back on their mother's cooking as delicious, just like you look back on your mom's meals.
posted by dead_ at 11:23 AM on May 21, 2007

Humans are omnivores by nature.

The only time people ever seem to care about nature is when it helps them rationalize whatever they were going to do anyway.
posted by hermitosis at 11:24 AM on May 21, 2007 [17 favorites]

Actually, no it's not carnivores, and yes it is a damning indictment, but thanks for trying.

How is a crazy person starving their kid a damning indictment of veganism? It's a damning indictment of being crazy, but not much else.

Also, eating meat does not, in and of itself, make one a dumbfuck so consider that the next time you want to accuse someone of being "uselessly inflammatory".

I wasn't saying that it did. There is, however, a small subgroup of carnivores, like the ones claiming that breast milk is not vegan or that crazy people are indicative of the beliefs and motives of a larger group, who are demonstratably ignorant dumbfucks.
posted by cmonkey at 11:26 AM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Ynoxas: Humans are omnivores by nature.

It would be easier to take any argument you have to make seriously if you didn't resort to nonsensical standbys like this. Are bodies are the way they are because of the evolutionarily success of an omnivorous diet. We don't eat meat because we are built that way. We are built that way because we eat meat. You may as well say "Look, we have fingernails. It's in our nature to pick bugs out of trees. Anyone who doesn't think so is just fighting their nature."

Yes, there have been "well demonstrated groups of objects in this world that have been shown to be safe, and beneficial", but that has nothing to do with the choices we make now. We're a little beyond the hunter/gatherer phase of humanity. We know a lot more about what our bodies need, and can make different choices about how to provide those things. The "wildly varying and completely arbitrary criteria" you see are just different people making different choices. No need to feel threatened.
posted by team lowkey at 11:30 AM on May 21, 2007

My only worry about raising kids vegan is denying them the pleasures of ice cream, birthday cakes, and other treats they might encounter playing at a friend's house. Same with Jehovah Witnesses with Halloween, Birthdays, and threesomes.
posted by yeti at 11:31 AM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

You may as well say "Look, we have fingernails. It's in our nature to pick bugs out of trees."

It's so we can pick our noses.
posted by yeti at 11:33 AM on May 21, 2007

yeti, you raise a very important point about vegan children, and actually one of the most important points and arguments against raising children vegan--in my opinion (as a vegan).

It's clear that infants can be raised as vegans, and remain so for their entire lives, however in the current American climate, that has some heavy social consequences. It is hard to escape childhood rites of passage, like birthdays, where abiding by ethical dietary guidelines will undoubtedly exclude vegan kids from participating socially with their peers, and I'm unsure if this is an appropriate trade-off (behaving morally at a time when one doesn't understand morals vs. socializing and adapting oneself to the overall mainstream culture).

I've seen this borne out time and time again with vegan children, and the overall hostile attitude in America against vegans is much more of a threat to vegan infants (in terms of their growth as a social being) than any nutrition problems that might exist because of moronic parents.
posted by dead_ at 11:40 AM on May 21, 2007

Also, I'm finally glad someone hit on the real issue of raising children vegan, which has nothing to do with nutrition.
posted by dead_ at 11:42 AM on May 21, 2007

Yeah, but there are worse ways to screw up a child emotionally than depriving them of mac'n'cheese. If you make it to adulthood without being somewhat screwed up in the head, then you're probably a fictional character on an ABC sitcom.
posted by tastybrains at 11:59 AM on May 21, 2007

the efficiency of a digestive system full of nothing but plants versus a digestive system full of rotting flesh.

Hey dead_, I'm not one of those cats who thinks veganism is crazy or stupid or anything. I'm wildly pro-choice across the board. I'm saying that to preface this comment because I don't want to have a fight with you:

That's an urban legend pal.
posted by Divine_Wino at 12:04 PM on May 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

Not a vegan myself, but the people here implying than vegans can only be eating lentils and hardtack (and flaxseed) are being ignorant or disingenuous. I have had delicious vegan cake, brownies, etc, to say nothing of non-dessert food. Yeah, I prefer my cake to have eggs-n-butter, but I am constantly surprised by what food-loving vegan cooks can come up with.

To me, the issue of raising a kid vegan is a delicate one, but I'm neither a parent nor a vegan, and I am happy not to even touch that discussion. That said, the judgment I'm sensing even for plain-old grown-up vegans in this thread is irritating. Sure, I've known some weirdly penitential, ascetic vegans, but I know more who get off on good food as much as I do.
posted by everichon at 12:05 PM on May 21, 2007

Not so much the efficiency part (as a measure of frequency of pooping, I guess, fiber does help with pooping) but the rotting meat in the digestive system part.
posted by Divine_Wino at 12:07 PM on May 21, 2007

Personal anecdote time: I've raised 3 perfectly healthy children without the benefit of meat. I'm the only one in the family that eats meat, as I was raised that way (i.e. old dog, new tricks, etc).
posted by thanotopsis at 12:09 PM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Anecdotal it may be, but the change in my digestive system was pronounced when I switched from an omnivorous diet to a vegetarian one, and even more pronounced when I went vegan. In fact, I could hardly believe the difference in smells (both sweat and feces) after going vegetarian->vegan, as well as the reduction in bloating that was in my intestines from decades of dairy eating.

The changes were truly remarkable in the way I felt (when in the bathroom, and out), as well as the way in which food passed through my body.

Anecdotal, yes. An urban legend, no way. As with everything, YMMV.
posted by dead_ at 12:10 PM on May 21, 2007

yeti: My only worry about raising kids vegan is denying them the pleasures of ice cream, birthday cakes, and other treats they might encounter playing at a friend's house.

Soy is your friend. Check out the dessert menu at the Cheese Factory next time you're in the Wisconsin Dells.
posted by thanotopsis at 12:12 PM on May 21, 2007

Metafilter: much more of a threat to vegan infants
posted by IronLizard at 12:15 PM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

dead_ I meant the part about the "rotting meat", if you are pooping then everything not absorbed by your body is leaving your body, nobody with a functioning digestive system has quantities of any food hanging around in their colon.
posted by Divine_Wino at 12:16 PM on May 21, 2007

We're a little beyond the hunter/gatherer phase of humanity. We know a lot more about what our bodies need, and can make different choices about how to provide those things.

Well said. It's also completely natural to be dead by 25, but I don't see anybody making that argument.

(omnivore by choice, but supportive of lifestyle choices)
posted by lumpenprole at 12:16 PM on May 21, 2007

Yeah; growing up vegan/vegetarian also sucks because of all the "dumbfuck carnivores" (thanks, cmonkey) who are convinced that you're just dying to try a bite of meat and take every possibly opportunity to wave it around you, assuming that you can hardly avoid drooling. Guess what, carnivores: meat looks and smells disgusting, and I don't want to eat it, thank you very much. Keep your meat to yourself.

It's a lot like the evangelical Christians who just know you secretly want to worship Jesus, and surely if they bother you enough you'll realize you were making a giant mistake as an atheist. Carnivores seem to have this burning desire to expose some fatal flaw in the logic of veganism and vegetarianism, and if they repeat these old tired arguments (we're "naturally" omnivorous, carrots scream when you cut them, eggs are animals because OMG THEY TURN INTO CHICKENS, yeast is alive, oh noes you'll die of malnutrition, etc.) enough times, we will see the light and join them in chowing down on DELICIOUS ANIMAL FLESH. Right.
posted by smably at 12:17 PM on May 21, 2007

Hey, thanks for all the stereotyping, smably. Tell, me how do you feel about being called a turd eater? Since, you know, if those Iranian vegans mentioned above eat food contaminated with feces, you must too.
posted by IronLizard at 12:20 PM on May 21, 2007

Divine_Who: Ah, I got it.
posted by dead_ at 12:21 PM on May 21, 2007

As long as the dietary requirements are being met, and as most people here have said that is more a function of parental ability than a specific dietary belief, then who gives a fuck what exactly it entails.

We could just as easily have a conversation about parents who allow their children to become diabetic or grossly overweight and say it was the fault of meat in the kid's diet. And it would be just as stupid. You can be equally idiotic no matter what diet you follow.
posted by edgeways at 12:27 PM on May 21, 2007

I'm not saying all carnivores are like this, IronLizard. There are plenty of classy carnivores, just as there are annoying, militant, evangelical vegans. I'm just saying that, in my personal experience, growing up as a vegetarian means dealing with a lot of people who act like this.

Also: thanks to respectful carnivores. The world needs more of you.
posted by smably at 12:31 PM on May 21, 2007

Unless you have held a 1 year old as she has painful abdominal gas because her mother fed her beans her digestive system can't handle yet...Shut the Fuck up about Veganism

Unless you have lied to a 3 year old and told her that you are feeding her "tofu hot dogs" or "veggie lunch meat" in order to get some protien in the poor malnourished kid...Shut the Fuck up about Veganism

Unless you can guarentee that nobody should try to raise their child as Vegan without the knowledge that is requried to properly do so...Shut the Fuck up about Veganism

Most people are stupid. when you advocate a course of action that required a greater than average knowlege and learning capability you are condemning their children to suffering and pain or death.
posted by Megafly at 12:35 PM on May 21, 2007

“The only time people ever seem to care about nature is when it helps them rationalize whatever they were going to do anyway.”

I favorited this comment because it's so very true and arguments from nature for a moral principle are inherently flawed. People who make such naturalistic arguments always conveniently overlook the vast number of human behaviors which are natural yet which they nevertheless condemn. It's incredibly annoying.

And yet you find almost everyone doing it at one time or another. It's too tempting to restrain, apparently. So you'll find both those defending the human omnivore status quo and vegetarians using naturalistic arguments.

That said, there is the equally false and ideologically-motivated view, an anti-naturalistic argument that sees humans independent from the natural world in which it evolved. In this context, it can manifest as either an ignorant or a willful denial of the essential omnivorous nature of the requirements of the human diet. Those practical requirements aren't an argument for the inclusion of anything which essentially omnivorous, just that it requires some informed choices for a true vegetarian diet to meet the needs of a metabolism that is omnivorous.

“Are bodies are the way they are because of the evolutionarily success of an omnivorous diet. We don't eat meat because we are built that way. We are built that way because we eat meat.”

I'm ambivalent about your point here. I think I agree with the sentiment and implicit criticism driving it, but I think it's exactly as fallacious as the argument it's refuting. Specifically, both assertions ("our bodies are built the way they are because..." and "we eat the way we do because...") are implicitly teleological and evolution is not teleological. Our human point-of-view when answering any "why" question is always teleological and because of this, in thinking about the natural world we often start off on the wrong foot. This is contemporarily never more true than it is with regard to popular discussions of evolution.

The truth of the matter with regard to the two statements in your quote is that, as far as it goes and removing teleology as much as possible from the premise, it's the case that we are omnivores because our individual bodies require us to be and our individual bodies require us to be because its predecessors were omnivores. Both are true, in a sense, and neither is true, in a sense.

Does it matter? The naturalism of it matters in the sense I describe above only to the extent that our behavior in relation to this is constrained to remain within a naturalistic, and not wholly artificial, world. The context of this discussion is historically naturalistic and it remains, to some degree, naturalistic. It is not necessarily naturalistic and thus you're right: in theory the naturalistic context is irrelevant.

As in so many things, part of the chart of Man's moral progress is how we've moved the context for our moral behavior out of naturalism and into abstraction. We've done this culturally and, often, via technology. There is no good reason that we should allow our moral compass to either be guided by, nor at the very least constrained by, a naturalistic context. There are a great number of strong ethical arguments against eating meat and the more ways in which we take this debate out of the naturalistic context, the better. (And, in this sense, the vegetarians that make naturalistic arguments are misguided and working against their goal. But, also, in this sense a certain number of vegetarians are revealed as an odd sort of conservative who long for a stronger naturalistic context that defines morality. It's an alternative morality to the conservative, naturalistic morality of traditional conservatives, but a naturalistic, conservative morality nevertheless.)
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:38 PM on May 21, 2007 [4 favorites]

So, is your career tending to malnourished vegan babies? Is this your area of expertise? Or are you just using this as an opportunity to bitch about an isolated incident spurred by a particularly stupid and irresponsible parent? Because that's kinda what it sounds like, Megafly.

Everyone seriously needs to calm down, take a few deep breaths. At least 50% of the world's population is stupid and does stupid things. You can probably do things better and more intelligently than those people. It's infuriating. But it doesn't mean that all vegans are inept parents, ok?

I do have to say it really pisses me off when people make wild generalizations based on extreme & rare cases.

Also humans are pretty much never carnivores. They are omnivores. All you vegans & vegetarians who like to use "carnivores" as a derogatory slur - grow up.
posted by tastybrains at 12:40 PM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Megafly: 'Cause clearly tofu dogs have no protein in them...
posted by smably at 12:41 PM on May 21, 2007

I've been rich and I've been poor. And being rich is whole lot better. Likewise: I've been vegan and I've been omnivorous. And being omnivorous is whole lot... easier. Especially when it comes to traveling the world.

Other than that this thread is idiotic. People can be perfectly healthy eating meat. And most can be pretty darn healthy NOT eating meat (though I am not one).

If the issue is values? People raise their kids with idiotic and dangerous values every day.

In our culture it seems perfectly fine to raise your children on Big Macs, hot dogs, Kraft Mac & Cheese, Koolaid, Coke, Cheetos and Tater Tots. Plop them in front of the Xbox for five hours and let them consume their fat asses off. And lo when the little fuckers turn into obese turds with diabetes and heart disease we sue the food manufacturers and fast food restaurants.

THIS is the problem. Not some mom feeding her kids macrobiotic grain paste and carrots.
posted by tkchrist at 12:42 PM on May 21, 2007 [3 favorites]

dead_: ... the efficiency of a digestive system full of nothing but plants versus a digestive system full of rotting flesh.

As I've said before in another vegetarian/vegan vs. omnivore ragefest... Eating meat =/= Eating ONLY meat. These clogged-up bowels full of "rotting meat" only exist in people who aren't eating a balanced diet in the first place.

smably: ["Carnivores" are] a lot like the evangelical Christians who just know you secretly want to worship Jesus, and surely if they bother you enough you'll realize you were making a giant mistake as an atheist. Carnivores seem to have this burning desire to expose some fatal flaw in the logic of veganism and vegetarianism...

Or, conversely, it's the "Grazers" who are like evangelical Christians who just know you secretly want to be freed from the cold, evil claws of Rotting Flesh. And just as some evangelicals would take challenges to their proselytizing as attacks and atheists' "burning desires to expose some fatal flaw in the logic" of evangelical Christianity, perhaps it's just the "Carnivores" telling the "Grazers" to back off.
posted by CKmtl at 12:42 PM on May 21, 2007

In fact, I could hardly believe the difference in smells (both sweat and feces) after going vegetarian->vegan, as well as the reduction in bloating that was in my intestines from decades of dairy eating.

Ok, for counterpoint, and I am TOTALLY 100% not kidding here, I was raised by hippies and was vegetarian for about half my life.

When I started eating meat again, I lost a significant amount of weight and looked and smelled a hell of a lot better. I was less bloated, probably because I was eating fewer salty starches and more straight up protein, and life was much more pleasant.

Some people's digestive systems can't tolerate animal products. I fully believe this. And I fully believe that mine deals with one meat-based meal a day and several snacks (usually fruit-esque) better than it does three meals of well-rounded vegetarian goodness. It's just been the case that when I've eliminated meat from my diet, I'm more sluggish and less happy. And it's not just because veggie burgers don't taste as good.

(Seriously, for all the "vegetarians taste better" nonsense, I had to throw in my experience to the contrary. Again, YMMV.)
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:42 PM on May 21, 2007

We're a little beyond the hunter/gatherer phase of humanity

Surely you mean those of us lucky enough to be in the first world. Humanity, as a whole, is a LONG FUCKING WAY from being beyond the hunter/gatherer phase. The problem is in some places there is nothing left to even hunt or gather.

I'm not making an argument, I feel like I'm doing the opposite. But the endless "veganism is the one true way plebian" and calling meat eaters dumbfucks is tiresome. And I agree with your evolutionary explanation in theory, although I don't see what it has to do with our current situation... we are talking about today, as the Homo sapien exists right now.

Today, Homo sapiens have the ability to ingest, and extract nutrients from most meats, many plant materials, and some minerals.

Discussion outside of that simple fact means what I was saying before, that you then get on a philosophical path. If you want to then further talk about which of those meats, plants, and minerals one should consume, then that's fine, and your own business (see below), but call it what it is. It is a belief, a philosophy, a religion, a superstition. There are no "facts" that you can bring to a discussion about whether you should eat a cow or not, except "human beings can digest beef". Outside of that one fact, the rest is merely philosophy, preference, taste.

And there's nothing in the world wrong with it, and I'm not "anti-vegan" or anything of the sort. I don't know why anything other than enthusiastic cheering for veganism is construed as an attack. I think veganism is fine. I, personally, think it is a bit silly, just as vegans think it is disgusting for me to eat meat. Que sera sera.

In fact, just Friday, I had a discussion with a woman who has an 11 year old daughter who, of her own will, pursued veganism with no prompting or encouragement (or discouragement) from the parents. I think that's neat, and as long as she's healthy, more power to her.

But, the very notion of denying a (truly helpless) infant milk due to hyper-narrowly defined veganism makes me angry, yeah.

This is PRECISELY like the gun enthusiasts who talk about how the problem isn't guns, the problem is crazy people with guns. When a child gets shot, the gun lobby rushes to defend the right to have guns, it was just a problem in this one specific circumstance, and the fault of the individuals. There certainly could be no flaw in the philosophy of gun ownership itself, could there?

And it is, on its own, a somewhat compelling argument. The exact one being made here. I just think the parallels are interesting, that's all. I don't think veganism is bad or evil or any of that nonsense.

Also, I agree with Wanda Sykes that there is no such thing as "soy milk", there is "soy juice".
posted by Ynoxas at 12:43 PM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Tell, me how do you feel about being called a turd eater?

My dog eats turds, but I love her anyway.
posted by COBRA! at 12:44 PM on May 21, 2007

Ah, Megafly. Can I tell you to shut the fuck up about EVERYTHING because you personally can't guarantee the safety of it? Car driving? McDonald's hamburgers? Swimming? Eating? OMG the kid may asphyxiate on that lump of bread and butter!

you where saying something about people being stupid?
posted by edgeways at 12:46 PM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

At least 50% of the world's population is stupid and does stupid things.

Wow. That was CHARITABLE. Closer to 88%.
posted by tkchrist at 12:46 PM on May 21, 2007

grapefruitmoon: that's fascinating, thanks for sharing that with me. I've heard a lot of stories like my own, about transitioning from omnivore to vegetarian/vegan, but never the reverse. Interesting how people's bodies can respond to things so incredibly differently.
posted by dead_ at 12:46 PM on May 21, 2007

But, the very notion of denying a (truly helpless) infant milk due to hyper-narrowly defined veganism makes me angry, yeah.

Wait...so you think cow's milk is good for infants? It's not good for anybody. If you want to discuss what is "natural" for humans to eat, meat might fit in there, but other animals' milk does not.

That said I am an admitted omnivore and I like milk and I love cheese, but hell, I'm not going to pretend that it's good for me.
posted by tastybrains at 12:47 PM on May 21, 2007

Wow. That was CHARITABLE. Closer to 88%.

I was trying to cut the good-hearted idiots some slack. A for effort, right? ;-)
posted by tastybrains at 12:48 PM on May 21, 2007

yeah.. drinking other animal's milk is just weird... I do it, but it still seems whacked.
posted by edgeways at 12:49 PM on May 21, 2007

“In fact, I could hardly believe the difference in smells (both sweat and feces) after going vegetarian->vegan...”

Yeah, but why are you equating that with either "better" or "more efficient"? Smelling bad doesn't necessarily indicate that there's something wrong with your digestion. Or, perhaps better put conversely, that a vegetarian diet produces better smelling poop and sweat than an omnivorous diet doesn't at all mean that a vegeterian diet is more healthy.

“...as well as the reduction in bloating that was in my intestines from decades of dairy eating.”

This is a separate issue. Humans didn't evolve to eat cow's milk and we're not that efficient in digesting it. Eggs are a different matter and it should be noted that "dairy" is not a very rigorously justified dietary category. Anyway, most of the reduction of the digestive problems you associate with eating dairy products have to do with mild-product consumption which, as I said, is not a food source which poses no problems for human digestion. That this is the case doesn't demonstrate the "natural" superiority of vegetarianism.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:51 PM on May 21, 2007

This is PRECISELY like the gun enthusiasts who talk about how the problem isn't guns, the problem is crazy people with guns.

When carrot eaters are criminals only criminals will eat carrots.
posted by tkchrist at 12:51 PM on May 21, 2007 [3 favorites]

EB: True, "more efficient" was probably the incorrect way to phrase that. However, I would add, that I'm not simply extrapolating this "efficiency" from smells and lack of bloating alone, I am also drawing conclusions based on how many times I go to the restroom as well as consistency and other factors related to *ahem* pooping. That, and the scientific facts that plant materials pass through the digestive system faster than animals (though that says nothing--as you point out--of the digestive system "working" any better).

Anyway, I'm sure no one really cares to hear about my bathroom habits, as I don't know that they really prove much other than I'm not constipated. So I'll stop there, unless you have any specific questions :)
posted by dead_ at 12:58 PM on May 21, 2007

Anyway, I'm sure no one really cares to hear about my bathroom habits, as I don't know that they really prove much other than I'm not constipated. So I'll stop there, unless you have any specific questions

Do you use too much toilet paper? How many squares?
posted by tastybrains at 12:59 PM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

A bit of a derail, but I've long wondered if it is possible to be vegan outside of the developed world, particularly North America and Western European countries. I grew up in various third world countries. In my experience the range of substitutes for animal products and nutritional supplements available in the developed world just did not exist. I did not encounter vegans until I moved to the U.S. The only vegetarians I had encountered prior to that were Buddhist monks. Veganism just seems to be very much a "first world" thing to me.
posted by needled at 1:02 PM on May 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

'Cause clearly tofu dogs have no protein in them...

Assuming that was sarcasm, I'm a little surprised that a tofu dog has more protein, vitamins, and minerals than a similarly sized Oscar Meyer wiener.
posted by peeedro at 1:04 PM on May 21, 2007

tastybrains: Hang on a sec, I'm about to head to the bathroom now. I'll count and get back to you on this.
posted by dead_ at 1:05 PM on May 21, 2007

A bit of a derail, but I've long wondered if it is possible to be vegan outside of the developed world, particularly North America and Western European countries.

I would think that veganism wouldn't be unheard of in Buddhist and Hindu cultures. I know dairy is used in some recipes, but I wonder how common that is. Maybe someone more informed can chime in on this. I would think where there is vegetarianism, there is probably some veganism.
posted by tastybrains at 1:07 PM on May 21, 2007

Needled, that's because in other "worlds" the degrees of spearation between someone's livestock and someone else's plate are a lot fewer in number. Veganism is (in my experience, though IANAV) a response to an economic system that's tortures animals and spreads pestilince. It's not necessarily the killing, it's the flagrant disregard for life that gets people upseet enough to inconveniently, and often expensively, change their whole lifestyle.
posted by hermitosis at 1:07 PM on May 21, 2007 [4 favorites]

I ate poop once, I tasted teh B12.
posted by trueluk at 1:08 PM on May 21, 2007

Also semi O/T, but how did "carnivore" turn into a dirty word? It just means meat-eater; i.e., it's a way of distinguishing those omnivores who eat meat from those who eat only eggs and dairy. I'm a non-carnivorous omnivore; or, equivalently, a vegetarian. (Never meant it as a slur, I promise!) :)
posted by smably at 1:09 PM on May 21, 2007

When I was vegetarian (and for a time vegan) I developed terrible allergies and was tired and sick all the time. My skin was terrible. I could not sustain any kind of athletic performance. It was awful. This could be totally coincidental. However, when the Doctor recommended I introduce fish and eggs back into my diet it was like night and day.

At that time I lived with a food nazi and we were exceedingly careful about nutritional balance (it was a drag let me tell you) - so it wasn't poor vegan nutrition.

Meat was what my body needed. When I started eating meat again I felt like an athlete.

I am with out a doubt measurably healthier now. By orders of magnitude.

But other people seem to thrive as vegans. But not everybody can.
posted by tkchrist at 1:12 PM on May 21, 2007

I'm vegan in China needled, and it's never been easier for me to eat, particularly out. Home of tofu, dairy only a recent addition to the diet of most Chinese. Even many traditional dishes used only a little meat (too pricey) and the way cooking is here you can have it left out. Culturally, there was a vegetarian tradition and its making a comeback.
posted by Abiezer at 1:15 PM on May 21, 2007

tastybrains, Buddhism is a large component of the culture I come from, and vegetarianism was restricted to Buddhist monks. Vegetarianism and veganism were not part of the larger culture. Buddhist monks where I come from sworn to celibacy, so it's not exactly a self-perpetuating group.
posted by needled at 1:15 PM on May 21, 2007

If you have the patience and smarts and desire to raise your kid vegan, go to it. But how do you handle the "why can't I have a hamburger?" question. I don't mean literally, so much as... well, you kind of have to pony up to the kid how you are raising them differently and so on and so forth... Or?

I ask this sincerely as a vegetarian married to a omnivore raising omnivorous children.

'Cause that, it seems to me is the sticky wicket.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:15 PM on May 21, 2007

Veganism just seems to be very much a "first world" thing to me.

Same with Bulimia and Anorexia.

And Obesity.
posted by tkchrist at 1:16 PM on May 21, 2007 [3 favorites]

NEWSFLASH: People have different nutritional needs. Oh, and poo stinks regardless of diet.
posted by NationalKato at 1:17 PM on May 21, 2007

Also semi O/T, but how did "carnivore" turn into a dirty word? It just means meat-eater; i.e., it's a way of distinguishing those omnivores who eat meat from those who eat only eggs and dairy.

I guess it just implies that the person eats NOTHING but meat or at least primarily meat. The majority of people don't live like that, except when they try the Atkins diet. ;-) We're omnivores for the most part.

It just sounded like it was meant as an insult, I'm sorry if I misinterpreted.
posted by tastybrains at 1:18 PM on May 21, 2007

You know this is all completely irrelevant since we're actually in the Matrix and we're all just being fed liquefied babies anyway
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 1:19 PM on May 21, 2007 [3 favorites]

Oh, and I always just refered to lacto-ovo vegetarians as just that...or just "vegetarians". I don't call vegans vegetarians, I call them vegans. So everyone else who eats meat & eggs & dairy is an omnivore.

I don't know what you'd call someone who eats meat but not eggs & dairy, though.
posted by tastybrains at 1:21 PM on May 21, 2007

Carnivores seem to have this burning desire to expose some fatal flaw in the logic of veganism and vegetarianism...

It's the dumbfuck carnivores...

Guess what, carnivores: meat looks and smells disgusting...

thanks to respectful carnivores


I really wish the "carnivore" comments would stop. I'm no carnivore. I'm an omnivore. I have canine teeth and molars. I eat meat. I eat vegetables. Each group has its own pros and cons.

If I were to only vegatables, and I'd have a B12 deficiency; only meat, I'd get scurvy. Humans are naturally omnivorous for that precise reason. You get the best (and the worst, I suppose) of both worlds. Bonus is it doesn't require any extra thought, any extra planning.

I don't see what the controversy over the "naturally omnivorous" statement is, although I suppose that depends on your interpretation of the word "naturally." For over two million years, humans lived as hunter/gatherers. About 12,000 years ago, they began farming (note: taking up agriculture =/= vegetarian diet). Given over two million years of prior behavior, coupled with our obvious ability to ingest both plants and animals, I think it is safe to say that we are naturally omnivorous. I didn't have to take a pill to be able to eat both plants and animals.

Furthermore, I find it personally insulting to suggest that we are not naturally omnivorous after I underwent two procedures; one to fix a chip in my upper right canine tooth (yay meat!), the other to remove my wisdom teeth, which our ancestors used to chew/grind plants (yay plants!).

I can tell you that nobody is naturally vegan. That is a choice you made or one that was made for you. Perhaps you were raised vegan, in which case veganism may be considered "the norm" in your eyes, but it is certainly not "natural." Veganism is only possible with modern technology (ie, B12 and other vitamin supplements).

However, I would like to point out that I am [NOT VEGETARIANIST]. Just because something is biologically "natural" doesn't make it good, as seen in my prior example of the extraction of my wisdom teeth. If you can live happily and, most importantly, healthily with a vegan diet/ethos, then more power to you. But please, don't tell us omnivores that our diet isn't natural, please don't call me a carnivore because I enjoy steak, as I often have a salad right alongside.

Lastly:
the efficiency of a digestive system full of nothing but plants versus a digestive system full of rotting flesh.

Let's be fair: a digestive system full of nothing but rotting plants (after all, that's what digestion is...). The same experience could be had with any diet with adequate levels of fiber, although many western omnivores do not get enough fiber in their diets (giving us the omnivore equivalent to B12 supplements: Fiber supplements!). All the same, happy pooping.

carrots scream when you cut them

That is the only reason I eat them.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 1:25 PM on May 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Give us this day our daily troll.
posted by Fupped Duck at 1:31 PM on May 21, 2007 [