Advertise here: Contact FM.

Burnin, Burnin Love
August 8, 2007 1:41 PM Subscribe

Warning: Explicit sexual content. "These firefighters dedicated their lives to save the lives of others. They did not sign on to become unwilling props to a controversial political and social agenda," says Richard Thompson, President and Chief Counsel of the Thomas More Law Center, representing a group of brave men in uniform who were subjected to "vile sexual taunts" at a San Diego gay pride parade. Via Gawker.
posted by digaman (339 comments total) 2 users marked this as a favorite

(hose goes limp)
posted by hackly_fracture at 1:50 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

I don't know why they couldn't find any volunteer firemen, but absent any brave souls not afraid of looking at the odd willy, it seems...authoritarian to order a fire fighter to do a task not directly associated with his job.

The corollary for me would be if I was ordered as part of my job to look at an extreme beauty pageant with naked girls, squealing and demanding I remove my kit. I would not enjoy it, nor would I see it as a task essential to the job.

Weird.
posted by dash_slot- at 1:51 PM on August 8, 2007

Oh, be nice!
posted by porn in the woods at 1:52 PM on August 8, 2007

"The firefighters were also targets of gross sexual gestures to include the following: exposure of genitals, blowing kisses, grabbing of the crotch, rubbing of nipples, tongue gestures, men hugging and kissing one another passionately..."

Well, at least the guys weren't, say, bored and reading a magazine while they were hugging.
posted by digaman at 1:53 PM on August 8, 2007

Great second link. But seriously, many civic employees from all departments are asked by their superiors to attend or manage all kinds of community events, whether Pride, July 4th, or Thanksgiving etc. The only difference here is that gayz were standing on the side of the street, as opposed to any other group, which induces the gay-panic tort.

Some may have been (allegedly) obnoxious, but that would be a matter to address with means no different than police having to deal with, say, drunken revelers at a St. Patrick's Day parade.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:57 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Is 'I rub my nipples at you' similar to 'I fart in your general direction'?
posted by ao4047 at 1:57 PM on August 8, 2007

Dude, as a former Ann Arbor resident, got anything more than Thomas More? Those guys are batshit former Monahan bedfellows. They're the ones who were all het up about OMG nudity at an art film fest that indirectly got funded by the state.
posted by klangklangston at 1:59 PM on August 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

Sexual banter at a gay pride parade is like beer at a St. Patrick's Day parade. One can expect it to flow freely.
posted by digaman at 2:01 PM on August 8, 2007

Dammit, there's a 'flaming' joke here somewhere, I just can't make it work.
posted by Skorgu at 2:05 PM on August 8, 2007 [3 favorites]

"The Thomas More Law Center: The Sword and Shield for people of faith"

Yeah, no bigot agenda there. ((rolls eyes))
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 2:05 PM on August 8, 2007 [8 favorites]

I've been "near by" Hillcrest during that "parade" and it's pretty damn insane. A few years ago I was walking my kids in their stroller, right up University Ave, and these guys poured out of a building wearing nothing but cowboy hats, boots and just a little bit of skinny electrical tape.

I love my gay buddies, but I imagine that being a "fireman" in the middle of a fired up gay crowd would be more than a little intimidating. Someone could have made a better choice with this one.

Thanks for the interesting post!
posted by snsranch at 2:09 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

"After numerous websites published the report of NYC firefighting calendar coverboy Michael Biserta's appearance in a 'Guys Gone Wild' video showing off his own firehose, Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta announced that from now on New York City firefighters would be prohibited from posing in the beefcake calendar.

The calendar, published by the FDNY Fire Foundation, raises money for FDNY equipment and training. The 2008 issue will be its last.

...The FDNY was taken by surprise with the news of their firefighter's extracurricular talents. Biserta reportedly joined the FDNY in April 2006, after the 'Guys Gone Wild' video was filmed, and will not be disciplined for appearing in it."

posted by ericb at 2:11 PM on August 8, 2007

“Fire Chief Tracy Jarman, a lesbian, has apologized to Fire Capt. John Ghiotto, Engineer Jason Hewett and firefighters Chad Allison and Alex Kane and says she's having the the city's Equal Employment Investigative Office take a look at the situation, according to the San Diego Union-Tribune. The city's firefighters have participated in the gay pride parade for the last 15 years without incident.

Says CBS8:
‘They're trained to risk their lives battling fires, but some local firefighters suggest nothing could have prepared them for the insults and obscenities they faced at this year's gay pride parade.’
The Union-Tribune reports:
‘In statements filed with the state, the men said that along the parade route, they were subjected to offensive lewd comments such as, 'You can put out my fire,' and saw men blowing kisses at them. Then, they said, they had to endure protesters who yelled at them that homosexuality was a sin. Some comments were too risque to print.’
So, according to the paper, they had to endure men complimenting them for their looks, as well as experience first-hand the religious bigotry gay people must endure every day.

Poor things.”^*

posted by ericb at 2:17 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

I WAS SO INTIMIDATED I OFFERED TO SUCK THEIR COCKS AND GIVE THEM $20.
posted by 2sheets at 2:17 PM on August 8, 2007 [31 favorites]

Come on now, that guy in the picture on the left totally has an eggplant stuffed in his drawers.

Or is it...a firehose?
posted by The Straightener at 2:18 PM on August 8, 2007

Sexual banter at a gay pride parade is like beer at a St. Patrick's Day parade. One can expect it to flow freely.
posted by digaman at 9:01 PM on August 8

I agree, though clearly the banter was directed at unwilling participants. Therefore, why deny the firefighters the right to decline an order to be there?

As to the agenda of the Thomas More centre, looks like the Fire Chief played right into their hands. Not too clever.
posted by dash_slot- at 2:19 PM on August 8, 2007

2Sheets— Wait, were they black?
posted by klangklangston at 2:19 PM on August 8, 2007

Well, until I see something on this from a...er...slightly more reputable news source, it's hard for me to take the story at face value. But it did make me laugh. But then I thought about it some more, and realized if it was, I dunno, the Maxim Pride March, and it was a bunch of dudes shouting come-ons at a pack of hot female police officers who were just there trying to do their job, I'd be pretty fucking disgusted. So I dunno.

(On preview: Ah, there's those reputable news sources now.)
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:24 PM on August 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

imagine that being a "fireman" in the middle of a fired up gay crowd would be more than a little intimidating

What exactly would these men who run toward burning buildings for a living have to be afraid of? After nearly 50 years of gay pride parades in America, I haven't yet heard of one that turned into a mass rape or lynching of straight bystanders. It's hard for me to imagine that happening. There's a lot of nudity and sexual banter at these parades, but it's not quite a raging "fired up" threatening mass.
posted by digaman at 2:28 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

CBS8 video segment.
posted by ericb at 2:28 PM on August 8, 2007

"Fire department spokesman Maurice Luque said the four men, who were assigned to a fire station in the parade route area, were called in after another crew that had volunteered to participate canceled at the last minute because one firefighter had a family emergency."^*
posted by ericb at 2:30 PM on August 8, 2007

aren't these assholes supposed to be supertough guys who jump into raging fires and shit? and they're afraid of a bunch of guys in Speedos mooning them? wtf?
posted by matteo at 2:33 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

It's not about physical fear. It's about harassment.
posted by desjardins at 2:36 PM on August 8, 2007

...were they black and stocky???
posted by WolfDaddy at 2:36 PM on August 8, 2007

Oh, come now matteo— they had the perfectly reasonable fear that they'd be offered a no-strings-attached gay encounter, and since gay sex is more potent than heroin, they'd become gay. And since we all know that gay people are subject to all sorts of archaic legal discriminations, it's worth trying your damnedest not to accidently become one of them. That's why gays recruit kids, like boy scouts and altar boys.
posted by klangklangston at 2:37 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

"During the course of the ensuing three hour long ordeal, the firefighters were subjected to vile sexual taunts from homosexuals lining the parade route. This included the following statements: "show me your hose," "you can put out my fire," "you're making me hot," "give me mouth-to-mouth," "you look hungry, why don't you have a twinkie (from a man wearing a "Girth and Mirth" t-shirt)," and "blow my hose." "

First 9-11 then this.
posted by LarryC at 2:38 PM on August 8, 2007

"...were they black and stocky???"

Black and stocky versus black and chubby?
posted by klangklangston at 2:38 PM on August 8, 2007

In every gay pride parade I have attended (Boston, Chicago, L.A., New York and San Francisco) there have always been contingents of openly gay police and firefighters -- often marching behind a banner declaring their affiliation/organization.

Fire engines with lights and horns a-blaring open the parade here in Boston (followed traditionally by the 'Dykes on Bikes'). The parade closes with a contingent of firetrucks -- also blaring sirens, horns and flashing their lights. No one assume those on the firetrucks and rescue vehicles are necessarily 'gay.'
posted by ericb at 2:38 PM on August 8, 2007

"First 9-11 then this."

6-21 NEVAR FORGET.
posted by klangklangston at 2:39 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

By the way, can anyone provide a quote that indicates the firefighters were physically afraid of the parade attendees?
posted by desjardins at 2:40 PM on August 8, 2007

I said stocky and I meant stocky! I'd rather be a racist than a homosexual! Or a fireman!
posted by WolfDaddy at 2:42 PM on August 8, 2007

First 9-11 then this.

I swear to God, I typed that phrase here three times and deleted it each time.
posted by digaman at 2:43 PM on August 8, 2007

By the way, can anyone provide a quote that indicates the firefighters were physically afraid of the parade attendees?

No, but damn it, the teasing, oh, the teasing really hurt!

"...colleagues called to tease them for participating in the event."^*

posted by ericb at 2:46 PM on August 8, 2007

These guys may or may not be homophobes, but being forced to attend an event where you are sexually harassed should not be part of any job description. If these were women being harassed by straight guys, I think the response here would be very different.

Note that the firefighters are not pressing charges or whatever against the parade attendees. They are suing their boss, who mandated their attendance at the event.
posted by desjardins at 2:50 PM on August 8, 2007 [15 favorites]

Richard Thompson, President and Chief Counsel of the Thomas More Law Center

Salon: Intelligent Designer -- "The chief defender of intelligent design in the Dover evolution trial insists he has science and God on his side."
posted by ericb at 2:50 PM on August 8, 2007

In an ironic twist of fate, my homophobic 76 year old father was raised on 8th in Hillcrest & now lives right on Park Blvd. So I was walking my puppy out and about the Pride festival this year while my dad penned himself up in his house with his headphones on to pretend it wasn't happening.

It was interesting to me to be in SD during it, since after living in LA & SF I've forgotten about the open discomfort & disdain a lot of straight San Diegans display over homosexuality, especially during pride weekend. But it was palpable, I heard more than a few people talk about how they "avoid going out" on that weekend as though it's common knowledge that scary gay people are temporarily running the asylum so you shouldn't venture into the sun lest they "get" you. But other than avoiding certain streets that I knew would be blocked off with traffic, I found the Pride crowds to have a very pleasant & friendly attitude.

So now here's the part I don't really understand about the article... in LA & SF, they generally have volunteers for those events. Gay firefighters and policemen are first to put on duty, and then anyone who is open to it. Generally the straight officers who work the parade are people who aren't homophobic at all, they are cool and supportive, just there to do their jobs without taking anything personally. From what I've seen, they know what they're in for & take it with a grain of salt and a polite smile generally.

My only thought is... especially after being reminded that San Diego is such a white bread Republican town... perhaps they have fewer officers who are out of the closet and willing to volunteer. So maybe they just assign people the duty whether they want it or not. But I mean, honestly, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that the minute a fireman shows up at Gay Pride he's gonna be popular. That's a big gigantic "DUH."
posted by miss lynnster at 2:50 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Sexual Harassment Law 101
posted by desjardins at 2:52 PM on August 8, 2007

I dunno, I wouldn't want to march in a parade for three hours hearing "show me your hose," "you can put out my fire," "you're making me hot", etc. If someone yelled that at a woman in any way, would we be so quick to tell her to, uh, man up and take it as part of the spirit of the event?

If these guys were told they had to be in it, I can see why they might get a little peeved. And so they didn't respond to the cat calls. So the people on the parade route got pissed, and started swearing, so the firefighters got even more peeved. Whoever ordered them into the parade should have just hopped in the firetruck themselves, methinks, and spared everyone this little tempest.
posted by Salmonberry at 2:52 PM on August 8, 2007

I hope every attractive woman who has been asked by their boss to walk past a construction site to get coffee or something else can also get in some cool tort action. Unless construction workers have somehow changed in the past fifty years.

Or is it different because they're not gay?
posted by inthe80s at 2:54 PM on August 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

"I said stocky and I meant stocky! I'd rather be a racist than a homosexual! Or a fireman!"

NO FATTIES!
posted by klangklangston at 2:54 PM on August 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

So now here's the part I don't really understand about the article... in LA & SF, they generally have volunteers for those events.

They had volunteers. At least one of the volunteers had a family crisis. The replacements were ordered by the chief to go. (source)
posted by desjardins at 2:54 PM on August 8, 2007

Interesting to consider how this falls within the "sexual harassment" rubric. If we turn things around a bit -- maybe make the victims female reporters trying to interview athletes in a locker room, only to be groped and subjected to a bunch of sexually lewd comments -- would people be so quick to dismiss their complaints?
posted by pardonyou? at 2:55 PM on August 8, 2007

No, but damn it, the teasing, oh, the teasing really hurt!

"You look hungry, why don't you have a twinkie?"
posted by kirkaracha at 2:56 PM on August 8, 2007

I used to be a "twinkie" myself! ; )
posted by ericb at 2:57 PM on August 8, 2007

They talk about this issue here, but I MUCH more enjoyed reading about lots of hot football players and sexy lesbian moms. And of course, the craziness that ensues.

Seriously, is ANYONE on any of these topics not seriously batshit insane?
posted by OhPuhLeez at 2:57 PM on August 8, 2007

inthe80s, that's a ridiculous comparison. If the boss ordered the worker to go TO the construction site, and she was harassed there, then yes, she apparently has a case.

But I have never heard of a boss ordering a subordinate to take a specific route past a construction site in order to get coffee.

Furthermore, the firefighters were ordered to go to an event that has been historically sexually charged. You might really, really like your Starbucks, but it's not the same thing.

(IANAL)
posted by desjardins at 2:59 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

One of the things inherent in sexual harrasment is a power differential— it's hard to argue that gays occupy the same position of privilege in relation to straight guys as men do to women. Which isn't to say that being ordered into this position is necessarily right, or that the firefighters don't have a case, but that it does explain a lot of the mockery that they're getting here.
posted by klangklangston at 2:59 PM on August 8, 2007

But I mean, honestly, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that the minute a fireman shows up at Gay Pride he's gonna be popular. That's a big gigantic "DUH."

No kidding miss lynnster. I think someone noted above that it was a last minute thing based on a no show of volunteers.

I'm not anti anything, but that can be a "freaky" as in shake ya naked ass, scene. I just hope this situation doesn't screw up the future of the event. It is one of the more cool things down here in uptightville.
posted by snsranch at 2:59 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

and since gay sex is more potent than heroin

Gay sex is only tempting if you're gay. Somehow, that particular fact doesn't make it into mainstream discourse much....
posted by Malor at 3:01 PM on August 8, 2007

But it was palpable, I heard more than a few people talk about how they "avoid going out" on that weekend as though it's common knowledge that scary gay people are temporarily running the asylum so you shouldn't venture into the sun lest they "get" you.

It's a funny thing. The only major NYC parade I can stand being in the city for is the Pride parade. All of the rest of them set off my claustrophobia.

As for the firefighters. On the one hand, I empathize with their discomfort. On the other hand, part of me is saying "welcome to what women go through on the streets all the time."
posted by Karmakaze at 3:01 PM on August 8, 2007 [4 favorites]

One of the things inherent in sexual harrasment is a power differential

Right. As in the power differential between the fire chief and her subordinates.
posted by desjardins at 3:02 PM on August 8, 2007 [3 favorites]

Right, and if she was sexually harassing them, this would be a different story. Instead, she was sending them to a place where she had no control over the crowd. If the crowd acted badly, how is that her fault?
posted by klangklangston at 3:04 PM on August 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

(Malor— Forgive the link to About.com, but this is what I was referencing.)
posted by klangklangston at 3:05 PM on August 8, 2007

"The harasser does not have to be your supervisor for the harassment to be illegal. Employers have a responsibility to provide a workplace free from sexual harassment, whether the harasser is your supervisor, a supervisor in another department, a co-worker, a subordinate, or even a customer or client."

source
posted by desjardins at 3:05 PM on August 8, 2007

Aren't there enough gay and lesbian firefighters in San Diego to fill a truck?

Not a problem in New York (self link)

IMO (as a PFLAG dad) this just gives the bigots more ammo, and they don't need more.
posted by Danf at 3:07 PM on August 8, 2007

Is San Diego's Gay Pride Parade super-rowdy and lewd? From the television news footage and amateur videos on YouTube of this year's event, it all looks pretty tame to me. The Thomas More Law Center is likely employing hyperbole in their complaint.
posted by ericb at 3:09 PM on August 8, 2007

obligatory onion article
posted by elwoodwiles at 3:12 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Not a problem in New York

And their brethren: Gay Officer's Action League of New York | Gay Officer's Action League of New England.
posted by ericb at 3:12 PM on August 8, 2007

And the website -- listed on the banner in Danf's photo: FireFlag/EMS.
posted by ericb at 3:13 PM on August 8, 2007

Here's a pdf of the complaint.

The Pride parade is generally friendly, but there is some drinking and cat-calling. If these had been women who, as part of their job, had to go to a place where drunken guys yelled at them to show their tits, I don't think we'd be dismissing it so easily. Anybody who's ever seen that parade should have known that the crowd interaction goes a bit beyond polite smiles and flag-waving.

In any event, the complaint says that they offered alternatives, and that others who were asked to participate were allowed to decline. If my boss told me that I had to go to a community event where people were going to talk dirty to me, I'd be pretty pissed off, especially if other people had been told they didn't have to do it. I have nothing against talking dirty in general, but I do object to it being made a part of my job, even if only for a few hours.
posted by stefanie at 3:16 PM on August 8, 2007

""The harasser does not have to be your supervisor for the harassment to be illegal. Employers have a responsibility to provide a workplace free from sexual harassment, whether the harasser is your supervisor, a supervisor in another department, a co-worker, a subordinate, or even a customer or client.""

So, if you work as a female cop, your supervisor has to make sure that you're never sent to patrol an area where you may be verbally harassed? No female police can work Mardi Gras then. Or most sporting events. It takes an extreme stretch to imagine the public as customer or client in terms of that definition, and employers only have to take reasonable action regarding sexual harassment precautions.
posted by klangklangston at 3:17 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Instead, she was sending them to a place where she had no control over the crowd.

She made their attendance mandatory. Corollary: if a group of female executive assistants were told by their male boss to attend a mandatory convention, and at that convention were told it was mandatory for them to go up on stage -- and then, once up there, the room of conventioneers spent twenty minutes shouting crude obscenities and making sexual gestures at them.

There's a double-whammy of double standard potential here: first, there's the "it's men being harassed, so it's not like women were being harassed" and "they're firefighters and the parade-goers were gay, what did they have to be afraid of?"

Both of these are based on the same fallacy: (Fire)men are big and powerful, and women/gay men are small and weak.

If you're a woman and harassed by a man, you're powerless to stop it, because you're weak. If you're a gay man harassed by a group of straight men, you're powerless to stop it, because you're weak. However, if you're a (fire|straight) man and you're harassed by a group of gay men, no harm was done, because they're weak and you're strong -- so you weren't in physical danger, and you're a big tough guy, you don't have feelings, right?

Everybody has feelings; everybody has insecurities; everybody can be insulted, harassed, etc. If you're a straight man with big muscles, so what? You might be underwater on your mortgage, having marriage troubles, and scared that if you lose your job your family will be on the street -- muscles and sexual orientation don't change that. Heck, you might just be a sensitive guy with low self-esteem, or you were raised to believe homosexuality was wrong (even though you believe otherwise, that indoctrination can stay with you emotionally) and then your boss puts you in the parade.

I have a certain amount of sympathy for them, as I do with anyone who's harrassed but not physically harmed: I assume that if they were in a position to say "no" they would have, so they weren't in a position to say "no", and they deserve some sympathy. Not as much as someone who gets beaten up or raped or otherwise physically harmed, of course, but that's only because such occurances have physical AND emotional components, whereas harrassment only has an emotional component.

Done ranting, but all the "big firemen should be able to take it" people are missing the point.
posted by davejay at 3:19 PM on August 8, 2007 [14 favorites]

All you "if they were women getting lewd stuff yelled at them, it'd be different" folks...I guess you've never heard of Mardi Gras?

Which makes me wonder, does the NO fire department have a truck in the Mardi Gras parade, and if so, does it have female firefighters? Somehow I suspect if it did, they'd get just as many beads-for-boobs propositions.
posted by nomisxid at 3:19 PM on August 8, 2007

One of the things inherent in sexual harrasment is a power differential— it's hard to argue that gays occupy the same position of privilege in relation to straight guys as men do to women.

Yes, but sexual harrassment laws are gender-neutral, as they should be.

I wish guys would say stuff like that to me more often. I know how I'm dressing up for Pride next year.
posted by fugitivefromchaingang at 3:20 PM on August 8, 2007

As for the firefighters. On the one hand, I empathize with their discomfort. On the other hand, part of me is saying "welcome to what women go through on the streets all the time."

Seriously! And before the Anita Hill hearings made everyone uber sensitive about harassment, the workplace could be a mighty uncomfortable work environment if a man thought you were attractive. I remember men saying and doing offensive stuff in the workplace that I still can't believe actually happened.

Anyhow, when my dad makes a homophobic comment and I call him on it, he always says, "You don't know what it was like, when I was in the service and walked through San Francisco. Men tried to pinch my rear end."

Every time I say the same thing, "Wow dad. I've NEVER had a guy pinch my rear end! What's that like? It must've been horrible for you!". Oh, and then I remember that from what I've heard the man was never stationed in San Francisco when he was in the service. Sounds good though.
posted by miss lynnster at 3:20 PM on August 8, 2007

I don't think the firemen should have been compelled to participate in this parade but...they probably would have been equally as offended if the boys didn't make lewd remarks.The only thing worse than being sexually harassed is being sexually ignored.
posted by MikeMc at 3:20 PM on August 8, 2007

Questions that remain unanswered:

Did the firefighters object at the time of their assignment?

Were they in the cab or exposed to the crowd?

Gay pride parades can be completely over the top, and quite uncomfortable for the uninitiated, especially if the uninitiated is wearing a fireman's hat. I mean, Pride parades are an explicit exercise in sexual harassment, a flowing-over of libido and energy. (At least in this neck of the woods.)

If these guys were really forced into it, they could have moral, if not legal grounds to complain. But hiring the Screaming Asshat Law Partners of Lower Michigan to churn out press releases like this sets off a five-alarm credibility question.
posted by bicyclefish at 3:21 PM on August 8, 2007

So, if you work as a female cop, your supervisor has to make sure that you're never sent to patrol an area where you may be verbally harassed? No female police can work Mardi Gras then. Or most sporting events.

No, because they have recourse, because harrasing a cop is an arrestable offense.
posted by Snyder at 3:21 PM on August 8, 2007

"No, because they have recourse, because harrasing a cop is an arrestable offense."

Saying "Show us your tits" to an officer is not an arrestable offense. Interferring with their duties is. It would be sexual harassment in another context.
posted by klangklangston at 3:24 PM on August 8, 2007

To bad they weren't armed with the puke-light.
posted by Mr_Zero at 3:24 PM on August 8, 2007

"Yes, but sexual harrassment laws are gender-neutral, as they should be."

But context-dependent, as they should be.
posted by klangklangston at 3:25 PM on August 8, 2007

Boo hoo. You know, this is just what happens when you work in what people generally consider a “sexy” profession. You get treated like a piece of damn meat by women and men alike. Is it tough? Yeah, well, life is tough. You just have to get used to it, so suck it up.

Anyways, I better get back to reviewing these zoning variances.
posted by gordie at 3:28 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

"No female police can work Mardi Gras then. "

No matter how drunk I was, I don't think I would be dumb enough to sexually harass a cop. And if I was, I would be in jail.

Firefighters can't arrest people.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 3:31 PM on August 8, 2007

Saying "Show us your tits" to an officer is not an arrestable offense.

You haven't had much contact with the police have you? Anything is an arrestable offense if you piss the officer off enough. The only issue for the cop is deciding which law you broke by enthusiastically asking to examine her breasts.
posted by MikeMc at 3:32 PM on August 8, 2007

Seems silly that anyone would dismiss the claims of these men. As was said very cogently early on:

But then I thought about it some more, and realized if it was, I dunno, the Maxim Pride March, and it was a bunch of dudes shouting come-ons at a pack of hot female police officers who were just there trying to do their job, I'd be pretty fucking disgusted.

I think it's just insane that these fireman could be ordered to go to a gay pride parade. Some people just aren't going to be comfortable with that, and that's their right. I would have no problem with it, I'd probably be rather flattered...but there's no reason why they have to share my point of view. I think the fire chief was really insensitive. Of course, the lawyers' blathering about the "homosexual agenda" makes it harder to see this from their side. But unless you're looking to completely redefine sexual harassment, that's what this was.
posted by Edgewise at 3:34 PM on August 8, 2007

Boo hoo. You know, this is just what happens when you work in what people generally consider a “sexy” profession. You get treated like a piece of damn meat by women and men alike. Is it tough? Yeah, well, life is tough. You just have to get used to it, so suck it up.

That's what I told my secretary and my maid, but they still refused to wrestle in the jello.
posted by Partial Law at 3:34 PM on August 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

"You haven't had much contact with the police have you? Anything is an arrestable offense if you piss the officer off enough. The only issue for the cop is deciding which law you broke by enthusiastically asking to examine her breasts."

Having been to Mardi Gras a couple of years ago, I can emphatically say that not even waving your dick at a police officer was an arrestable offense in that situation.

Further, basing what is and isn't an arrestable offense on the whims of officers may be realistic, but it certainly isn't a good place to argue similar principles upon.
posted by klangklangston at 3:36 PM on August 8, 2007

Saying "Show us your tits" to an officer is not an arrestable offense.

I need to go out drinking with you sometime, klangklangston. You sound like a hoot and a holler.
posted by YoBananaBoy at 3:42 PM on August 8, 2007

Re: bicyclefish:
Questions that ~~remain un~~ were already answered:

Did the firefighters object at the time of their assignment?

Yes, see the original complaint.

Were they in the cab or exposed to the crowd?

Seems like both, see the original complaint.
posted by desjardins at 3:45 PM on August 8, 2007

> On the other hand, part of me is saying "welcome to what women go through on the streets all the time."

But exactly. And why should we take that any more seriously than we're taking this? Just whip out a few hose jokes, that should help the firemen and the sisters unclench and chill. Glad to see so many folks here understand that and agree. Bit of a surprise considering the site, but whatever.
posted by jfuller at 3:47 PM on August 8, 2007

Bullshit. As a societal generalization who has more power, women or men? Who is likely to be more able to intimidate, based either on physical strength or position? Acknowledging that is not fallacious, and since your argument all stems from that, it's all bullshit. Sorry. They should have been able to take it because it's part of their job to deal with the assholes who happen to make up a large percentage of the public at large.

Sorry, no, your response is bullshit. Without getting into whether intimidation is required for harassment to exist, or what exactly intimidation or harrassment require, it is not part of their job to deal with assholes any more than it's your job to deal with assholes.

I like gay pride parades, I think firemen can be hawt, but I don't think anyone should be required to participate in them against their will.
posted by me & my monkey at 3:50 PM on August 8, 2007

Having been to Mardi Gras a couple of years ago, I can emphatically say that not even waving your dick at a police officer was an arrestable offense in that situation.

Mardi Gras in N.O. might be a slightly different situation than asking your average female cop elsewhere in the country to display her sweater puppies.
posted by MikeMc at 3:53 PM on August 8, 2007

But it's likely much closer to "Show me your hose" at a gay pride parade.

"Sorry, no, your response is bullshit. Without getting into whether intimidation is required for harassment to exist, or what exactly intimidation or harrassment require, it is not part of their job to deal with assholes any more than it's your job to deal with assholes."

Dude, they get paid to put out fires and ride in parades. The asshole quotient surrounding those two situations is huge. It's not a supervisor's job to ensure that the public will always be sensitive to the feelings of any given employee. The supervisor has NO CONTROL over any folks on the street. Just like how any boss couldn't be charged with sexual harassment for the actions of construction workers next door— you'd have to charge the construction workers.
posted by klangklangston at 3:58 PM on August 8, 2007

Saying "Show us your tits" to an officer is not an arrestable offense. Interferring with their duties is. It would be sexual harassment in another context.

Well, just using Arizona state law for a minute:

"13-2905. Loitering; classification

A. A person commits loitering if such person intentionally:

1. Is present in a public place and in an offensive manner or in a manner likely to disturb the public peace solicits another person to engage in any sexual offense;"

or even:

" 13-2921. Harassment; classification; definition

A. A person commits harassment if, with intent to harass or with knowledge that the person is harassing another person, the person:

1. Anonymously or otherwise communicates or causes a communication with another person by verbal, electronic, mechanical, telegraphic, telephonic or written means in a manner that harasses.

2. Continues to follow another person in or about a public place for no legitimate purpose after being asked to desist.

3. Repeatedly commits an act or acts that harass another person.

4. Surveils or causes another person to surveil a person for no legitimate purpose.

5. On more than one occasion makes a false report to a law enforcement, credit or social service agency.

6. Interferes with the delivery of any public or regulated utility to a person."

Police have discretion in arrests, and things that might be acceptable in parts of New Orleans during Madi Gras (mostly because there are actual rapes, fights and property destruction going on,) would not be acceptable other times or places in that city. I guarantee you, waving your dick at a cop in NO anything time of year, or in a different location in the city during Madi Gras, will most likely get something more than benign indifference.

The point I'm trying to make is that police have reasonable methods to deal with harrasment, sexual or otherwise, which these firemen did not. If a female police oficer was ordered to patrol an area, but restriced by her supervisor from responding to "Show us your tits!" then yes, that would be sexual harrasment.
posted by Snyder at 4:00 PM on August 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

I used to live upstairs from The Loft (gay bar) on 5th Avenue, really close to the parade route, and of course I went to the parade and had fun. At the time, the late 90s, I thought that CityFest (the Hillcrest street festival in August) could be almost as rowdy. The main difference was that at the Pride Festival, Candye Kane (omnisexual blues singer) could play the piano with her boobs; she was covered up at CityFest. But I digress...

I really can't understand why they didn't have volunteer firefighters, or gay or lesbian forefighters, for that matter. I used to know a gay San Diego cop. I'm sure there's enough gay firefighters there to make up a contingent, too.
posted by Robert Angelo at 4:01 PM on August 8, 2007

Just like how any boss couldn't be charged with sexual harassment for the actions of construction workers next door— you'd have to charge the construction workers.

You're right, unless the boss required you to interact/walk by/whatever with the construction workers next door, and refused to deal with any complaints you brought to them.
posted by Snyder at 4:02 PM on August 8, 2007

These guys were at a *gay pride parade*, and I'm sure were not the only ones having lewd comments yelled at them. This is what happens at a gay pride parade: lots of dirty talk gets thrown about. And if you go dressed up as a firefighter of all things, you're probably going to get your extra share of the raunch. This doesn't mean you're being harassed, any more than those guys in the photo were probably being "harassed" by the crowd, any more than those guys in the second photo were probably "harassed" by the crowd. If you're at a gay pride parade, and you're a sexy man, or you're dressed up as a firefighter, or you're wearing crotchless leather chaps, or whatever, then you're going to attract attention. And the comments from the article are laughably unoffensive. "You make me hot!" "Blow my hose!" oooh... shudder!

I grant that it's strange and was a bad idea that their supervisor ordered homophobic firefighters to go to the event, but I see no way that what happened at the parade was anything other than harmless fun in the spirit of the day.
posted by polytropos at 4:03 PM on August 8, 2007

"Both of these are based on the same fallacy: (Fire)men are big and powerful, and women/gay men are small and weak."

Bullshit. As a societal generalization who has more power, women or men? Who is likely to be more able to intimidate, based either on physical strength or position? Acknowledging that is not fallacious, and since your argument all stems from that, it's all bullshit. Sorry. They should have been able to take it because it's part of their job to deal with the assholes who happen to make up a large percentage of the public at large.

I probably shouldn't engage, but I'll bite for one comment's worth.

"As a societal generalization" is not the same as "for these specific people." We're not talking about all white straight men versus all women and gay men.

Here's the cage match we're talking about:

1. Government employees who are expected to be courteous, respectful and pleasant to the public, placed in a position that is not officially part of their job description, on a stage from which they cannot depart or take action without putting their job at risk;

vs.

2. Thousands of civilians who, individually and as a group, have no accountability for their behavior (provided they don't break any laws in the process) and who are in an environment that is supportive of, and encouraging, lewd and obnoxious harrassing behavior.

If you look at this individual case (as I was) the firemen were clearly at a disadvantage, not being in a position to evade, confront or otherwise deal with their harrassers directly.

To say that these firemen generally have more power than women and gay men doesn't change the fact that they didn't have the power in this case -- and you're not arguing that because they "generally" have more power, they somehow deserve this, are you? After all, these may actually be some of the nicest, most courteous, most dedicated straight white men on the planet -- who have all of this power, supposedly, but who instead have dedicated their careers to saving people's lives.

Oh, and do we know if any of them are African-American, or Hispanic? No offense to 'em if so, but I would say they've got a lot less "power" (generally speaking, as you were) than the typical straight white male, yes?

Of course, at the end of the day, nobody wins the internet, we are probably both full of crap, and nobody cares. Except the people involved in this case, of course, who we don't know and whose troubles will go on long after this thread has closed.
posted by davejay at 4:07 PM on August 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

And if you go dressed up as a firefighter of all things, you're probably going to get your extra share of the raunch. This doesn't mean you're being harassed...

You see her skirt? She wanted it! Hey, we were just having a little fun.
posted by Snyder at 4:07 PM on August 8, 2007

I'm sure were not the only ones having lewd comments yelled at them.

I'm sure they were the only ones there not by choice.

if you go dressed up as a firefighter of all things

Again, not their choice.

And the comments from the article are laughably unoffensive.

Great, you wouldn't mind if someone said the same things to your sister/mother/daughter, then?

How about "Fuck you firemen"? "Fuck you fire department"? Those aren't offensive?
posted by desjardins at 4:09 PM on August 8, 2007

Dude, they get paid to put out fires and ride in parades.

No, they get paid to put out fires. And I doubt there's much sexual harrassment going on at a fire.

Just like how any boss couldn't be charged with sexual
harassment for the actions of construction workers next door— you'd have to charge the construction workers.

That's simply not true. An employer can be held responsible for putting an employee in a situation where that employee may be harassed, if there's a reasonable expectation that harassment may occur.
posted by me & my monkey at 4:09 PM on August 8, 2007

You idiots. Gays are incapable of sexual harassment, just as blacks are incapable of racism, Muslims of ethnic profiling, and Jews of genocide.
posted by Krrrlson at 4:11 PM on August 8, 2007 [6 favorites]

dressed up as a firefighter

Does it count as dressing up if you actually ARE one?
posted by davejay at 4:12 PM on August 8, 2007

This is the most ludicrously strange and misguided mefi discussion I've ever read.
posted by TypographicalError at 4:12 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

> This is what happens at a gay pride parade: lots of dirty talk gets thrown about. And if you go dressed up
> as a firefighter of all things, you're probably going to get your extra share of the raunch.

I'll be sure to remember that tomorrow at the office, if I see anybody dressed as a woman.
posted by jfuller at 4:12 PM on August 8, 2007

Employers have a responsibility to provide a workplace free from sexual harassment, whether the harasser is your supervisor, a supervisor in another department, a co-worker, a subordinate, or even a customer or client.

Great. So it's OK to send them into a burning building to risk their lives, but send them into a parade full of cat-calling fairies, and they'll sue your ass into tomorrow for it.

The point I'm trying to make is that police have reasonable methods to deal with harrasment, sexual or otherwise, which these firemen did not.

They don't have cellphones? If they felt that harrassed or intimidated, they should have called a cop and let a 'real man' take care of them.

I grant that it's strange and was a bad idea that their supervisor ordered homophobic firefighters to go to the event

Meh. It was a public relations exercise. Public servants are often instructed to attend such things in order that they meet and are accountable to the communities that they serve. I bet if they were being paid overtime to attend, they'd have been queuing twelve deep to do so.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:13 PM on August 8, 2007

Davejay, I agree with you that if the firefighters were uncomfortable with going, they should not have been forced to attend the parade. But calling the behavior of the participants there harassment is simply disingenous.

I'd liken it to going to a strip club and then complaining that the dancers are harassing you because they're exposing themselves and making lewd comments at you. You'd have a hell of a case against your employer if he forced you to go to the club as a PR move, but you couldn't honestly claim that you were harassed by the dancers. Similarly, unless there is evidence of anything more serious than catcalling, which I don't think there is, you can't say that the firefighters were harassed by the audience at the parade.
posted by polytropos at 4:14 PM on August 8, 2007

I'm really torn about this. It's a gay pride parade. They're attractive firefighters. They were definitely going to get attention. I think anyone with half a brain would have expected that. And the power differential issue is an important one, at least from a legal and historical perspective. But on a personal level? I feel for the guys. Unwanted sexual advances are just that: unwanted. Does the fact that they are male and not female mean they deserve mockery for being upset about that?

As for the people who supposedly got hostile when the firefighters didn't respond the way they wanted them to? Assholes, pure and simple. No one is required to think your come-ons are adorable. Move on and find someone more receptive.
posted by LeeJay at 4:16 PM on August 8, 2007

Great, you wouldn't mind if someone said the same things to your sister/mother/daughter, then?

Well, depending on the context, yes or no...
posted by polytropos at 4:18 PM on August 8, 2007

Again, not their choice.

And on that issue I agree with you davejay. They shouldn't have been sent to the parade. But I think it's really a stretch to say they were harassed because they were catcalled after showing up at a gay pride parade dressed like firemen.
posted by polytropos at 4:20 PM on August 8, 2007

So, according to the paper, they had to endure men complimenting them for their looks, as well as experience first-hand the religious bigotry gay people must endure every day.

Poor things.

Boo hoo. You know, this is just what happens when you work in what people generally consider a “sexy” profession. You get treated like a piece of damn meat by women and men alike. Is it tough? Yeah, well, life is tough. You just have to get used to it, so suck it up.

What the fuck, people!? Seriously? So is it ok to insult gay people if they're in the wrong place? 'Cause you know, they're just asking for it. Besides, life is though and shit... How about fucking a nurse that's there to look at your IV or give you a sponge bath? Or a catholic school girl?

All you "if they were women getting lewd stuff yelled at them, it'd be different" folks...I guess you've never heard of Mardi Gras?

Yes, we did. And so far as we know, Mardi Gras is completely voluntary. No one gets ordered to attend and flash their tits.
posted by c13 at 4:20 PM on August 8, 2007

*desjardins, sorry
posted by polytropos at 4:21 PM on August 8, 2007

but you couldn't honestly claim that you were harassed by the dancers.

Which they aren't. They are suing the city.
posted by c13 at 4:22 PM on August 8, 2007

... The message sent to the gay citizens of the Hillcrest district is clear: your local firefighters, those who will be called upon to save your life and property, despise you and think you are lewd, debased, and obscene. ...

I'd like a list of all the other celebrations and parades they attend.
posted by amberglow at 4:27 PM on August 8, 2007

Which they aren't. They are suing the city.

Yup. Others in the thread have been claiming the firefighters were harassed at the parade. That's whom I've been addressing.
posted by polytropos at 4:28 PM on August 8, 2007

I'd like a list of all the other celebrations and parades they attend.

I'd like to see what catcalls are made to them at the other parades.
posted by desjardins at 4:33 PM on August 8, 2007

But I think it's really a stretch to say they were harassed because they were catcalled after showing up at a gay pride parade dressed like firemen.

Emphasis mine.

Why are you noting how they were dressed? Because that makes it OK to catcall? You should test this theory of yours on women.
posted by fugitivefromchaingang at 4:35 PM on August 8, 2007

RTFA PEOPLE the volunteers cancelled at the last minute!!!

Also, Federal Law doesn't apply to this suit they are suing under the California Fair Housing and Employment Law.

From reading the complaint the officers acknowledge that it wasn't everybody on the parade route that "harassed" them "These unsolicited and unwanted behaviors from a few individuals of the public
toward us, reduced our morale as well as the integrity of the workplace, and destroyed
our professionalism ."

They admit that is was only a few individual that behaved poorly.

They also admit, in the complaint, that they planned ahead of time to make a fuss and sue..Before the Parade! "We both felt stressed out about
this whole ordeal and that if we were going to be given a direct order to be in the parade
that our Equal
Employment Opportunity (EEO) Policy would be violated ."

The Parade itself is what they were anxious about on June 20
posted by Megafly at 4:38 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Why are you noting how they were dressed? Because that makes it OK to catcall? You should test this theory of yours on women.

If you can't see the difference between catcalling firemen in a freaking gay pride parade and catcalling a woman on the street then I don't know what to tell you.

You're completely ignoring the context. How they were dressed was important. They were dressed like firemen at a gay pride parade. Firemen are definitely sexy. Look at the guys in speedos in the second link - you think it'd be wrong to yell "you make me hot!" at them if they rolled by you on a float in a parade? I think the same general principle applies, and obviously men who are uncomfortable with that should not have been put in their situation. The fault lies with their supervisor, not with the audience members at the parade.
posted by polytropos at 4:41 PM on August 8, 2007

Anyhow, when my dad makes a homophobic comment and I call him on it, he always says, "You don't know what it was like, when I was in the service and walked through San Francisco. Men tried to pinch my rear end."

Haha! My dad was stationed in Frisco in the Navy in the 60s; he used to say he dropped his wallet one time and kicked it all the way to Sausalito before bending over to pick it up.

He wasn't what you would call "open minded" or "tolerant."
posted by The Straightener at 4:43 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

They have been harassed, polytropos. Harassment is define as "Unsolicited words or conduct which tend to annoy, alarm or abuse another person." Or, as in this case, "Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature."
Notice that the definitions refer only to the recipient of the harassment, not the perpetrators. The taunts and come-ons were not welcomed by the firefighters, therefore it was harassment, and it should have been stopped. I realize that it was hard to do, with everyone around them being so gay and proud and all, but that does not change things.

your local firefighters, those who will be called upon to save your life and property, despise you and think you are lewd, debased, and obscene. .

It does not matter what they think about you, amberglow. They might as well despise you, but their job is to save your ass, not to love you. If they don't do their job properly, then you've got a case, otherwise this is bullshit, and you know it.
Doctors are not expected to love every fucked up junkie that gets brought to the ER, pilots are not expected to think you as a paragon of virtue. Neither are taxi drivers or road construction crews. Why would you think firefighters are any different?
posted by c13 at 4:46 PM on August 8, 2007

The Parade itself is what they were anxious about on June 20

Not everyone is supposed to like gays or want anything to do with them. All you can reasonably expect is not to be interfered with.
posted by c13 at 4:48 PM on August 8, 2007

"you wouldn't mind if someone said the same things to your sister/mother/daughter, then?"
Mind? There's minding, and there's filing a lawsuit and using a bunch of homophobic snake handlers for PR.
My sister invaded friggin' Iraq; I think she could handle a few taunts as long as she gets back in one piece, and I think she can dish it back just fine.
posted by 2sheets at 4:54 PM on August 8, 2007

And if you go dressed up as a firefighter of all things, you're probably going to get your extra share of the raunch.

But you wouldn't if you were dressed as, say, a policeman. Or a soldier. Or a construction worker. Or maybe a biker. Or a Native American.

NO FATTIES!

There was a man wearing a "Girth and Mirth" T-shirt.

I've lived in San Francisco for 12 years and no one's tried to pinch my rear end. I'm disappointed in the gay men in San Francisco and/or my butt.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:57 PM on August 8, 2007

c13, I guess we just see it differently. I see going to the event in a firefighter's uniform as soliciation of come-ons and raunchy comments. This perspective is easy to misconstrue into one that justifies the perspective that anyone who dresses a certain way deserves whatever they get. That is NOT what I mean. However, I do think catcalling is an expected response to a fireman who is riding in such a parade. Less homophobic firemen could I'm sure have taken it with good humor.

Really, I don't think anyone is at fault except the supervisor who sent them there in spite of the fact they were uncomfortable with going.
posted by polytropos at 5:04 PM on August 8, 2007

I pretty much have to side with the firemen here.

They were forced--subject to a severe power differential--to attend an event involuntarily, at which they were treated like pieces of meat. While there is a certain poetic justice in forcing men (that's 'men in general') to realize how men (ditto) often treat women (double-ditto), such things really shouldn't be done. Especially when they're being done by executive fiat from their boss, for crying out loud.

Presumably, those who had volunteered to go to the parade knew exactly what they were in for, and either relished the attention, didn't care, or felt it was part of their civic duty.

The chief fucked up, bigtime. Should have called around for more volunteers. Or, here's a thought, called around for one volunteer to replace the one person who couldn't go.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 5:06 PM on August 8, 2007 [4 favorites]

I see going to the event in a firefighter's uniform as soliciation of come-ons and raunchy comments.

Sure, if you're going there for that purpose, voluntarily.

These firemen weren't there voluntarily. They were ordered to go.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 5:08 PM on August 8, 2007

when a female is subjected to a "hostile work environment" at her job, sometimes she collects over a million. a million dollars per fireman should be enough to teach the fire department not to order its members to attend any kind of parade.

Listen, the percentage of women who have "profited" off of being harassed by men is minute. It's not just a special occasion "ordeal" women endure, it's a fact of life we are taught to expect. The Bureau of National Affairs reports that 40 percent of women in the workplace have been sexually harassed. Other studies say as many as 60 percent to 90 percent of women have been sexually harassed. If suing actually stopped it for us, we'd all have lawyers.
posted by miss lynnster at 5:10 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

But you wouldn't if you were dressed as, say, a policeman. Or a soldier. Or a construction worker. Or maybe a biker. Or a Native American.

Ha, yeah exactly. If you go as one of the village people, or pretty much in any outfit which anyone thinks you look hot in, and you're actually marching/riding in a pride parade, you'll probably hear about it. i don't think that's harassment.
posted by polytropos at 5:11 PM on August 8, 2007

Hmmmm. Sexual Harassment? No. A labor rules violation? Maybe.

Nobody should have to perform tasks they find personally demeaning or humiliating as part of their job.

Unless you work for me. Lunch time Cage Matches are NOT optional!
posted by tkchrist at 5:11 PM on August 8, 2007

I understand that, polytropos. Yes, it was a gay pride parade, and yes, firefighters are apparently very sexy (why, I can't fathom) and yes, the participants didn't know that the firefighters were not there on their own volition. And I think the firefighters understand that as well, that's why they are suing the city and not the individual participants. What I find surprising is the offense people seem to take here at their unwillingness to participate, or their being put off by the cat calls. I don't think participation in parades or love of gay people is a part of their job description.
posted by c13 at 5:19 PM on August 8, 2007

If you think that someone shouting "Show me your hose" to a fireman in a gay parade counts as "sexual harrassment," I suggest that you never hang out in beauty parlors -- the gossip there can be "murder."

The supervisor was TOTALLY AN IDIOT and should be reprimanded. But this lawsuit is a hoked-up bullshit excuse for right-wingers to work themselves into a self-righteous froth about gay licentiousness, and for the More Center to get more publicity. Whoever made this FPP should be reprimanded.

Uh oh.
posted by digaman at 5:30 PM on August 8, 2007

Lunch time Cage Matches are NOT optional!

thank you, rex kwan do.
posted by Hat Maui at 5:37 PM on August 8, 2007

I don't think participation in parades or love of gay people is a part of their job description.

This bears repeating.

Yes, they have a duty to be polite to the public which pays their salary. Yes, they have a duty to keep that public safe, without consideration of gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc.

They are not--or should not be--required to be on display as pieces of meat at a Pride parade. If they volunteer, by all means. And while it's true that the paradegoers could not possibly know that the firemen were not there of their own volition, it really doesn't matter. Why?

1) Does anyone here who has been to a Pride parade honestly believe that if there had been a sign saying "THESE FIREMEN HAVE BEEN COMPELLED TO BE HERE AND DON"T WANT TO BE HERE" that there would have been no catcalls or harassment? Please.

2) The firemen fully understand that the crowd is not at fault. The chief--who is, if I read correctly, lesbian--is at fault. She required her staff to be present somewhere she knew they would be subjected to behaviour that they might consider objectionable. This was a bad call on her part, period.

If you think that someone shouting "Show me your hose" to a fireman in a gay parade counts as "sexual harrassment," I suggest that you never hang out in beauty parlors -- the gossip there can be "murder."

But it is. It's an unwanted remark of a sexual nature. While the intent of sexual harassment laws had to do with power, they have been subjected to scope creep. The current definition of sexual harassment is any unwanted comments or behaviour of a sexual nature.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 5:38 PM on August 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

Digaman hits my feelings exactly.
posted by klangklangston at 5:39 PM on August 8, 2007

c13, I agree. It's certainly not in their job description to be ogled, cajoled and harangued sexually.

Also as racially and culturally mixed as San Diego is, there are still some extreme divisions. It's still a military town, as miss lynnster mentioned, it is greatly Republican, and we probably have more "Cowboys" than Kansas City.

So whatever the cause is for this thing, lesbian fire captain, it's not any good at all for civil liberty in this town.
posted by snsranch at 5:40 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

polytropos: Really, I don't think anyone is at fault except the supervisor who sent them there in spite of the fact they were uncomfortable with going.

I agree, and that's who their suit is directed to. The crowd had no way of knowing they didn't want to be there, or any way of knowing the firemens' orientation, and it was reasonable for them to catcall people in the parade.
posted by desjardins at 5:43 PM on August 8, 2007

NYFD and NYPD guys are much more blase about this kind of stuff, I guess. I've seen Gay Pride Parades, protest marches, Halloween parades etc and usually they're either looking on bored or goofing along amiably. Like matteo said, these guys run into burning buildings and stuff, some dude making kissy-face is small potatoes. Take a tip from the Apple and get a grip, San Diego.
posted by jonmc at 5:47 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

I somehow missed that the fire chief is a lesbian. Then I'll add that besides the hoking-up of this "sexual harrassment" lawsuit, the More Center is undoubtedly exploiting the firemen's desire to get revenge on their dyke supervisor for forcing them to look at a bunch of fags.

Scope creep, my ass.
posted by digaman at 5:57 PM on August 8, 2007

This post is awesome. So far I've heard that if you have a sexy job you need to suck it up and get used to it--great news for secretaries, nurses and teachers; that you should expect gay functions to be sexually charged, it's a celebratory part of their culture and they just can't help it; that if other people around you are being harassed, what did you expect; that if you knew it would be like that, going there makes you culpable for your own harassment (even when you were forced to do so); that to be a fireman it's part of your job to be in parades; that haha, it's funny when the tables are turned and other people get harassed for a change; that if you object to harassment it's because you might really want it, or maybe you're just frigid; that if you're a big boy you should be able to handle a little sex talk; that when we consider male sexual harassment, it is important to know if the male's race before making judgment.

This is like bizarro-world FreeRepublic.
posted by erikharmon at 5:57 PM on August 8, 2007 [11 favorites]

I lived on 5th and Penn in Hillcrest for a year and many of the more global arguments in this convoluted thread would be addressed by people personally experiencing the SD Hillcrest experiment. IMHO the "crazy" factor is a bit higher in the SD gay population than in other urban, gay-friendly areas (NYC, LA, Philly, Boston, etc.).

I moved out of my old apartment after a year, in large part, because of community behavior similar to that described by the firefighters. After getting home from work I couldn't walk to my apartment without being lewdly yelled at from bars (I'm blonde and 6'1" so the word "twink" was tossed out a lot) and going to a bar was downright scary sometimes. Being pinned, albeit not-so-forcefully, against a stall door in a bathroom by someone 3 inches taller than you is not pleasant, nor is being called a "fucking breeder" when you politely tell someone you're not gay.

I lived with a gay man for years and lived in some of the gay-friendly neighborhoods of the aforementioned cities. I've never seen any of this behavior as reinforced and accepted as in SD. I think the gay community in SD just isn't as diverse as it is in some other cities and there's a lot of insecurity and juvenile behavior.

I suspect that more issues/incidents in this vein will pop up in the next decade as is to be expected when you have cultures changing.

PS
The weird thing is that a friend and I were having a discussion about Jarman last year and the Pride parade issue came up. Jarman had been doing a good job (fire safety, etc. is a big deal in SD) about expanding coverage and response time, but this doesn't really speak well about her capacity to act as management.
posted by Redgrendel2001 at 5:58 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

I read the PDF of the complaints, and I have to say that it sounds like the crew were harassed just as mercilessly by their firefighting peers, before and after the parade. Also interesting to note that every year it's apparently a hassle to get a fire engine crew into to participate in the parade. Basically, it appears that the SDFD has a lot of internal issues. It seems clear they were harassed while participating in the parade, but is that worse than being harassed by coworkers?

"It has been less than 24 hours and I've already received three types of derogatory communication by coworkers about being in the parade."

I do have to say that the complainants (?) come off as a bit whiny, but again, it seems like this is more about the SDFD as an organization, rather than the specific incidents in the parade.

"When I walked into the bullpen at the station I saw the shift commander... showing another captain on the chalkboard how to play craps. This made me even more disappointed and upset. After what we, as crew, had to experience, he was demonstrating gambling on the chalkboard."
posted by oneirodynia at 6:04 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Redgrendel2001: I worked in the West Village of New York and walked down Christopher Street (the major gay cruising strip) plenty of times in the course of my meanderings. I'm built similar to you, although I'm dark-haired and goateed and wear a motorcycle jacket and I never was on the recieving end of anything more menacing than a wink or a smile.

All that sunshine in Cali must be fucking with everybody's heads.
posted by jonmc at 6:04 PM on August 8, 2007

Sigh...not the "SD Hillcrest experiment", but rather the "SD Hillcrest phenomena". Me proofread good one day...

jonmc: That's what I think the primary factor is. The SoCal culture can be absurd at times...
posted by Redgrendel2001 at 6:08 PM on August 8, 2007

Redgrendel2001, I've had similar experiences there. Sometimes there is a real "Aha, the tables are turned!" kind of thing. As if harassing the straight guy makes up for years of hate-crimes against homosexuals. It can be very intimidating, and frankly, I'm not easily intimidated.

That said, maybe some of you guys are right about the firemen being pussies about this. It's not like they were cornered in an alley by a bunch of burley fuckin' TOPS who only have one thing on their mind.
posted by snsranch at 6:14 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

There was no guarantee those men would be harassed on that assignment, because harassment is subjective. The behavior of people in public shouldn't be an actionable legal matter against their employer, it should be reason to call a cop. Harassed at work? HR, DOL, Lawyer. Harassed in the street? Cop.

That said, if they voiced their discomfort and were forced anyway, that's stupid as hell.

Was their truck assigned there as a public safety or just to represent?

And, this thread sucks major firehose.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 6:15 PM on August 8, 2007

It sounds like just to represent- Engine Number 5 is the crew for that district (or appropriate firefighter jargon word for district), according to the information in the statements. Another engine volunteered initially, and then one of their people was out and the sub for that day refused to work the parade. So the No. 5 crew got the direct order. I'm not sure why such a homophobic crew works in that area, but there you go.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:21 PM on August 8, 2007

Cops get catcalls at our pride parade all the time, even when they're just stationed on corners working. They don't sue.

The ones marching get them too and they don't sue (but those are volunteers).

Presumably, those who had volunteered to go to the parade knew exactly what they were in for, and either relished the attention, didn't care, or felt it was part of their civic duty.

The chief fucked up, bigtime. Should have called around for more volunteers. Or, here's a thought, called around for one volunteer to replace the one person who couldn't go.

That's exactly right, and it's not a sue-able offense i don't think--or definitely not winnable if it goes to court. Community Relations are vital for Firemen and Cops. It must be part of their official job descriptions.
posted by amberglow at 6:22 PM on August 8, 2007

(i'd also think they shouldn't sue the city, but take it to their union reps if they really had a problem.)
posted by amberglow at 6:24 PM on August 8, 2007

They should have gone here: San Diego City Firefighters IAFF Local 145.

It would be surprising that they didn't, since this is directly a management/member issue and about coercion, but i'm sure at least one of them wanted this fight, and that "law center" is one of many rightwing places that funds and pushes for these fights all over the country.
posted by amberglow at 6:27 PM on August 8, 2007

All that sunshine in Cali must be fucking with everybody's heads.

There are a lot of angry people in San Diego (along with a lot of cool people). It's almost like a little slice of reactionary Florida was imported there.

And, speaking as a Northern Californian in Oakland, we haven't seen the sun for days here. Not for more than an hour or two each afternoon. It hasn't stopped anybody from shooting each other though, so I have to reject your hypothesis.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:27 PM on August 8, 2007

Not to toot the NYC horn too much, but is the gay community in SD more ghettoized than in New York, resulting in more agressive representing at events and more overreaction from outside? I'm not suggesting things are perfect here, but it just about every part of NYC, homosexuality is more or less taken for granted.
posted by jonmc at 6:29 PM on August 8, 2007

Community Relations are vital for Firemen and Cops.

What, people are going to start setting their houses on fire intentionally if they think the firemen are homophobic assholes?
Who needs who more?
posted by c13 at 6:31 PM on August 8, 2007

Shucks, when I (a gay man) lived in Hillcrest, nobody propositioned me on the street. I feel cheated. :-) But there was that very nice clerk in Ace Hardware...

Seriously, I agree with dirtynumbangelboy. IANAL and can't speak to the specifics of the complaint, but the management of SDFD seriously screwed up here. I'd complain, too: Sort of like if I were a gay fireman sent to do PR for an evangelical group that tried to proselytize me.
posted by Robert Angelo at 6:32 PM on August 8, 2007

I do have to say that the firemen reacted badly. The right thing to do would've been to just joke back amiably and the whole day would've passed peaceably, and suing just seems petty. And firemen are vital to city's civic health so bad community relations is not desirable.
posted by jonmc at 6:32 PM on August 8, 2007

What, people are going to start setting their houses on fire intentionally if they think the firemen are homophobic assholes?

No, but if the gay community and the fire department don't get along, it's going to make life very tedious for all parties involved.
posted by jonmc at 6:33 PM on August 8, 2007

Plus it reinforces hostility and homophobia if the straight assholes run and sue over bs like this like the wusses they are.

Gay guys will not become firemen there now--it's a hostile environment. And if i was a fireman there, i'd countersue the ones suing for creating a hostile workplace.
posted by amberglow at 6:45 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

From the article :
*WARNING EXPLICIT SEXUAL CONTENT*

How disappointing. I was expecting at least a couple of photos with various bits black-barred out. Instead all I got was innuendo and double-entendres, and an edited swear word or two.

I guess some people have varying ideas of what constitutes 'explicit sexual content'.
posted by kaemaril at 6:46 PM on August 8, 2007

What, people are going to start setting their houses on fire intentionally if they think the firemen are homophobic assholes?
It's more likely that when there is a fire or emergency, they'll think the firemen are delaying in responding to that neighborhood on purpose.
posted by amberglow at 6:47 PM on August 8, 2007

the straight assholes run and sue over bs like this like the wusses they are.

As a straight asshole,

Burnin, Burnin Love August 8, 2007 1:41 PM Subscribe

Burnin, Burnin Love
August 8, 2007 1:41 PM Subscribe