Euromyths

August 25, 2007 5:51 PM

Euromyths from the English press in alphabetical order collected by the European Union's UK Press Room. Examples include: EU orders farmers to give toys to pigs, pets to be pressure cooked, circus performers must wear hard hats, no more Caerphilly Cheese in Caerphilly, butchers cannot give a dog a bone, EU says Brit yoghurt has to be called Fermented Milk Pudding & Brussels makes bright smiles illegal.
posted by Kattullus (64 comments total)

It's telling, though, that these myths sound so much like stuff the EU would actually do.
posted by tepidmonkey at 6:03 PM on August 25, 2007

Sweet dreams are made of myths.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:07 PM on August 25, 2007 [1 favorite]

Who am I to disagryth?
posted by Astro Zombie at 6:09 PM on August 25, 2007 [3 favorites]

I think it's telling of the British attitude to this sort of thing when after reading a few my underlying thought is: "fantastic"
posted by Surfyournut at 6:11 PM on August 25, 2007

It's telling, though, that these myths sound so much like stuff the EU would actually do.

Read the tabloids much?
posted by dash_slot- at 6:12 PM on August 25, 2007 [4 favorites]

Read the tabloids much?

No, but I'm an American. I was just referring to (what seems to be) the fairly common perception of the EU as a hulking bureaucracy filled with people who would be out of a job if they stopped coming up with new rules and regulations like the ones in this list of myths.
posted by tepidmonkey at 6:21 PM on August 25, 2007

I love that the debunking of half of these is either "Yes, and it's a fantastic idea" or "Not us guv'nor, you want that other random European body down the street".

I was just referring to (what seems to be) the fairly common perception of the EU

So myths read in the paper sound a whole lot like myths read in the paper. What are the odds?
posted by cillit bang at 6:29 PM on August 25, 2007 [2 favorites]

1 in 1.
posted by tepidmonkey at 6:40 PM on August 25, 2007

Sorry, that makes me seem like a jerk. I was just ceding the argument.
posted by tepidmonkey at 6:41 PM on August 25, 2007

So myths read in the paper sound a whole lot like myths read in the paper.

We also hear a lot about the food labeling things, which seem a bit nuts. Like only Italy can make Parmesan cheese.
posted by smackfu at 7:04 PM on August 25, 2007

Most of us, excepting of course those that live in lawless cesspools like Mexico, South America, or Iraq, live in a hulking bureaucracy. The sad truth is that these "laws" could be enacted in any one of our countries, and we would be basically powerless to stop it. The only recourse is to attempt to ignore idiocy wherever it occurs and pray that it is not enforced when left up to those whose jobs it is to enforce it. We have lost control of our governments.

At least my closest lawless cesspool has the best tequila and weed in the world! To where do Europeans dream of running?
posted by zapatosunidos at 7:07 PM on August 25, 2007

Cheddar started in England, and is a distinctly different cheese than the American "variant." It is not so stupid to assert that Parmesan cheese might only be made properly in a certain region in Italy, but a law proclaiming it to be so is asinine. With cheese, as with many things, education should override marketing.
posted by zapatosunidos at 7:14 PM on August 25, 2007

smackfu:
Only Bordeaux region can label wine 'Bordeaux', and only cheese made in Parma region can be labelled 'parmesan'. This is true, but that protects me as a consumer (as well as the producer).

This is wrong, why?
posted by dash_slot- at 7:17 PM on August 25, 2007

Only maple syrup tapped and made in Vermont may be labeled as Vermont Maple Syrup. Same goes for Kentucky bourbon etc.
posted by Kattullus at 7:32 PM on August 25, 2007

I have also heard rumors that they are attempting to control what can be called Champagne and Cognac. Thank God the lawless cesspool of Tequila, Mexico, is not caught up in such nonsense. And thank goodness America will never fall prey to such things, at least from where I am sitting in Bourbon, Tennessee, drinking a rum drink called the Bacardi.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:36 PM on August 25, 2007

Argument conceded. Even Old Mexico is less than a lawless cesspool nowadays. Where do we "Americans" go?

Metafilter: MMOAG

(Massively Multiplayer Online Argument Game)

The most fun I have had in a while.
posted by zapatosunidos at 7:43 PM on August 25, 2007

This is wrong, why?

You can buy Cabernet and Chardonnay from Australia and from California and from France and somehow people manage.
posted by smackfu at 7:58 PM on August 25, 2007

smackfu, of course only Italy can make Parmagiano. It's from Parma. Same as only the appropriate region of France can make Champagne.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 8:01 PM on August 25, 2007

This is true, but that protects me as a consumer (as well as the producer).

Exactly so.
posted by Wolof at 8:04 PM on August 25, 2007

Very interesting, Kattullus. I like the alliteration on some of the summaries, like Brussels blocking ban on bull bars. lol
posted by amyms at 8:12 PM on August 25, 2007

Cabernet and Chardonnay from Australia and from California and from France ...

Indeed. The grapes Cabernet [Sauvignon] and Chardonnay grow all over - in the Champagne region, for example. No-one is trade marking the grape variety, tho' the folks of the village Chardonnay may now get ideas to the contrary.

But if the Cabernet sauvignon from the Napa was called 'Bordeaux', wouldn't you feel misled?

I wonder if you understand that this is a geographical issue, not a varietal one. The Parmagiano are not trade marking cheese, or any dairy product - just the right to limit the name 'Parmesan'.
posted by dash_slot- at 8:12 PM on August 25, 2007

Sweet dreams are made of cheese
Who has a mind to disagree?
Eat all the different varieties
Everybody's longing for milk curd

Some of them are from Parma
Some of them wanna pretend to be
Some of them are from Roquefort
Some of them make you unkissable

Pick that wheel up
Eatin' on
Hold that wheel up
Eatin' on

I'm gonna cut it and then eat it
I'm gonna know what's inside
Gonna eat it and then barf it
I'm gonna know what's inside me
posted by Kattullus at 8:20 PM on August 25, 2007 [1 favorite]

I wonder if you understand that this is a geographical issue, not a varietal one. The Parmagiano are not trade marking cheese, or any dairy product - just the right to limit the name 'Parmesan'.

My contention would be that parmesan has essentially become a varietal identifier over the years, and now they are trying to change it back to a geographical one so that it can be exclusive. Same with feta cheese, pilsner beer, salami, and cheddar.
posted by smackfu at 8:23 PM on August 25, 2007

My original contention is that cheddar is no good as a varietal, nor are any of the other "brands" you mention. The cheeses are magnificently different (I like both, but prefer English). Consumers are responsible for understanding the differences between things labeled with the same name.

Lobbyists of governments wish to retain name exclusivity for marketing reasons. They pay governments to keep other producers of similar (or not so similar) products from profiting. Not to be supported, nor fought against, but ignored.

Seriously, taste, then eat what you like.
posted by zapatosunidos at 8:55 PM on August 25, 2007

Lobbyists of governments wish to retain name exclusivity for marketing reasons.

And we are back to the original point of this thread.
posted by smackfu at 8:57 PM on August 25, 2007

It is not so stupid to assert that Parmesan cheese might only be made properly in a certain region in Italy

It would only be not stupid in the Star Trek universe, where maybe a certain region in Italy is the only place in the known universe with parmiton particles.

But in this world, it's dumb, or at least a bog-standard effective subsidy to a small, intensely-motivated community.

You could make cheese that experts could not tell from Parmagiano lots of places, ditto for wine that experts could not differentiate from champagne from Champagne. If you really wanted to, you could just take total control over the growing environment and make them in downtown Detroit. In a sane world, we would not define champagne as being simply whatever bubbly wine happens to come from Champagne, but by a set of physical characteristics that champagne should have. Likewise, parmesan cheese. If you can meet the standard, you're making champagne, or parmesan, or cheddar, or whatever. If you can't, you're not, even if you happen to be in Champagne or Parma or Cheddar, because your shit ain't good enough.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:00 PM on August 25, 2007

Come on, the whole point of my comment is that there is nothing intrinsically special that can be used by "experts" to tell if you are making a "true" cheddar!

There is more variety in English cheddar than in all of the cheeses of Italy, in my opinion.

Have you read food or beverage reviews? As a Detroit cheesemaker (as opposed to a Detroit programmer, which I am) I would be just as hesitant to bow to the whims of the experts as the governments. If I were to somehow succeed at creating a grana that tasted just like that made in Parma, then have I created Parmesan? I might piggyback on Parma's history for marketing purposes, but is that anything to protect or admire?

Let's ignore the governments and make things that taste good.
posted by zapatosunidos at 9:21 PM on August 25, 2007

I should say, ignore the governments and the "experts."
posted by zapatosunidos at 9:36 PM on August 25, 2007

EU tells women to hand in worn-out sex toys
Red-faced women will have to hand in their clapped-out sex toys under a new EU law. They must take back old vibrators for recycling before they can buy a new one.
The Sun, 04 February 2004, page 22

These vibrators--they don't vibrate?
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 10:17 PM on August 25, 2007 [4 favorites]

In a sane world, we would not define champagne as being simply whatever bubbly wine happens to come from Champagne,....

Except that we don't. Geographical indications are usually subject to certain requirements, apart from the merely geographical. You can't call any bubbly wine coming from Champagne a champagne, it has to have been produced following a certain set of rules established by a committee of champagne wineyards. Any shortcut will certainly get you ejected from the geographical indication, even if you happen to be in the middle of the Champagne region. Same for parmesan cheese, and so on...

It's true that there is currently a silly inflation of geographical indications. A lot of rural areas see them as their salvation against the mighty power of agribusiness. In Spain you get, for instance, geographical indications for Navarra asparaguses, or "Barco de Ávila" beans. However, the self-regulating character of geographical indications pretty much separates the wheat from the chaff. If a geographical indication fails to indicate a clearly superior standard of quality, be it because it was silly to start with, or because its regulating committee fails to set and enforce proper requirements to its members, it will be less than worthless. But you'll notice that there's rarely much controversy about such worthless geographical indications. Instead, large agribusinesses and retailers usually try to trade on the hard-gained reputation of geographical indications which have long-established, well-enforced quality standards, such as, as it happens, champagne or parmesan...

In any case, geographical indications were not simply pulled out of Eurocrats' asses. In most of Europe they have a strong popular backing, and in France, Italy and Spain, people feel passionately about them. As a rule, if you make the product, you like them, if you would like to copy the product, you dislike them. Same as trademarks, really...
posted by Skeptic at 2:10 AM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]

I wonder how many of the people who say that we should try to eat food local to our own community whenever possible also defend a system that would mean that "Parmesan cheese" must be transported from halfway around the world.

As a point of amusement, Newcastle brown ale has protected designation of origin status, so that something can only be sold as "Newcastle brown ale" if it was brewed in Newcastle. The company that makes Newcastle Brown Ale wanted to move its brewery across a river to Gateshead, but unless their application to revoke their previously sought protection is granted, they'll have to change the name. Or move back.
posted by grouse at 3:22 AM on August 26, 2007

ever heard of mondovino ? It's now a series. It's interesting to see how culture, craft, "terroir" are involved in the production of wine. It's not only about recipes. Europe is struggling against bureaucracy but the threat of unsufficient or unaware laws still exists. Since Europe has been uniting countries with such discrepancies, it has to promote the weaker ones without throwing whole sectors out of balance. Unfortunately, there are those bloody lobbyists.
posted by nicolin at 3:51 AM on August 26, 2007

This thread demonstrates what eurosceptics find so horrifying about the EU: debate over the nature and purpose of government has been swamped by an argument about cheese.
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 4:20 AM on August 26, 2007

In a sane world, we would not define champagne as being simply whatever bubbly wine happens to come from Champagne, but by a set of physical characteristics that champagne should have. Likewise, parmesan cheese.

So you would be totally OK with champagne and parmesan that turns out to be made in China from industrial waste (but otherwise meets your physical characteristics)?
posted by sour cream at 4:38 AM on August 26, 2007

zapat: actually, Mexico is quite picky about what can be labeled 'Tequila'. Surprise, only the regions around the city of Tequila are allowed to label their spirits Tequila. The name of the identical spirit over the imaginary line is Mezcal. It's only in America that you buy swill of unknown origin called Tequila.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 5:32 AM on August 26, 2007

sour cream writes "So you would be totally OK with champagne and parmesan that turns out to be made in China from industrial waste (but otherwise meets your physical characteristics)?"

No, but the problem with that is the "industrial waste" part, not the "China" part. I'd be totally OK with champagne and parmesan that turns out to be made in China from grapes or milk (as appropriate).

Still, I'd be fine with all those naming restrictions as long as they allow the use of "style" as a modifier.

"Parmesan Cheese" - A certain type of cheese from Parma
"Parmesan Style Cheese" - Cheese like Parmesan cheese which isn't from Parma.

Totally clear, provides no confusion to the consumer. Win - win.
posted by Bugbread at 5:54 AM on August 26, 2007

The story of what happened to the description of one Parmesan-style cheese (whoops, I just broke the protection laws):

At first we called it PARMESAN, English of course.
Brussels said “You can’t do that”, without a hint of remorse.
Then we tried ITALIAN STYLE, a name with little impact;
Tis an English Cheese, you see and that’s a certain fact.
We’ve tried to think of a new name that sounds like Parmesan;
So now the cheese you love so much will be known as
FARMERS' HAND

posted by grouse at 6:09 AM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]

hoverboards don't work on water writes "This thread demonstrates what eurosceptics find so horrifying about the EU: debate over the nature and purpose of government has been swamped by an argument about cheese."

And it's the opposite from non eurosceptics: you've got things running pretty well when your big arguments are what to call cheese and wine.
posted by Bugbread at 6:12 AM on August 26, 2007

I wasn't quite expecting them to be so humourless about debunking the myths that they were trying to take the fun out of everything.
posted by plant at 6:23 AM on August 26, 2007

Don't be fooled by a lesser brand than Kraft. They've been doing this parmesan cheese for years and there's nothing else like it. I've been using this ever since I was a child and the knock-off brands taste a lot like chalk and not cheese. Kraft doesn't have the fillers like others do and it just tastes better. You really can't do any better unless it's fresh from the deli. Highly recommend!

That is what they're trying to avoid.
posted by swell at 7:23 AM on August 26, 2007

EU as a hulking bureaucracy filled with people who would be out of a job if they stopped coming up with new rules and regulations

Yeah, good old Europe: make rules not war!
posted by homodigitalis at 7:57 AM on August 26, 2007

Seriously, taste, then eat what you like.

I just tried this. The grocery store people are now very angry at me. Thanks a lot.
posted by srboisvert at 8:37 AM on August 26, 2007

Corn syrup is not cane sugar, nylon isn't cotton, VW is not Ford, Taiwan is not Brazil, Cat is not Dog, Parma is not Wisconsin, etc etc. What's the controversy?
posted by romanb at 9:16 AM on August 26, 2007

romanb writes "Corn syrup is not cane sugar, nylon isn't cotton, VW is not Ford, Taiwan is not Brazil, Cat is not Dog, Parma is not Wisconsin, etc etc. What's the controversy?"

Bathtub wine from Bordeaux is not Bordeaux, processed cheese made in a factory in Parma is not Parmesan cheese. I'm with you regarding not agreeing with the controversy, but you have to be pretty dense to not understand what the controversy is. Parmesan cheese is a certain type of cheese, which is originally from Parma. Some people use the term to refer to only the first half of that description. Some people use it to refer to both. If someone wants something that is made like the cheese of Parma, and tastes like the cheese of Parma, and they don't care if it is actually from Parma, I can see how they would be annoyed that there is no word to describe a product which exists that they want.

I mean, imagine you go to the supermarket, and want to make some lasagna, one of whose ingredients is Parmesan cheese. Your supermarket is a standard supermarket, not an import store. Odds are, there is no cheese imported from Parma in your supermarket. While you know that probably one of the 20-odd cheeses that are in your supermarket is the cheese that tastes just like Parmesan, how can you go about buying it? Buy all 20 cheeses, take them home, taste-test each one, and toss out all the non-Parmesan tasting ones? Quite a pain in the ass, and the wallet, and a waste of time.

Hence my supporting of the qualifier "X-style". You go to the supermarket to get some Parmesan cheese. There is no imported cheese, but there is a cheese called "Bob's Parmesan-style cheese". You buy it, go home, and make your lasagna. No time, effort, or money wasted, and Parma maintains the ability to market their cheese as true "Parmesan cheese".
posted by Bugbread at 10:44 AM on August 26, 2007

So you would be totally OK with champagne and parmesan that turns out to be made in China from industrial waste (but otherwise meets your physical characteristics)?

Of course. Why wouldn't I? It would be physically and chemically indistinguishable from champagne from Champagne and parmagiano from Parma.

But you'd probably have to strip the industrial waste down to raw atoms and make the cheese or wine with nanoassemblers or Star Trek replicators to achieve that.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:36 AM on August 26, 2007

Hence my supporting of the qualifier "X-style". You go to the supermarket to get some Parmesan cheese. There is no imported cheese, but there is a cheese called "Bob's Parmesan-style cheese".

But that's what we do now. I like the EU's labelling laws, because it tells you exactly what you're getting. An "orange juice drink" is something different from "orange juice", and before the laws you often couldn't tell before buying.

The regional thing is just branding, of course. But Hoover, Rollerblade, Portakabin, Photoshop get to fight to protect their trademarks, why shouldn't small regional co-ops get to protect theirs as well? Just because their history is regional does not de facto mean they're generic.
posted by bonaldi at 12:28 PM on August 26, 2007

But Hoover, Rollerblade, Portakabin, Photoshop get to fight to protect their trademarks, why shouldn't small regional co-ops get to protect theirs as well?

Because (some of) the terms have long been genericized, like aspirin. Parmesan certainly is, and you wouldn't be crazy to argue that champagne has been as well.

And you're creating a false dichotomy. Even if they were somehow unable to prevent Kraft from calling their stuff "parmesan cheese" or "parmesan cheese food," they were always entirely free to create and register a trademark of "Real Parmagiano Cheese" or "Parmesan di Parma" or "Authentic Parmagiano Cheese" or whatever. What they're seeking goes far beyond merely identifying their product as being from the original region.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:55 PM on August 26, 2007

But that's what we do now.

Council Regulation 2081/92 Article 13(1):

Registered names shall be protected against:

(a) any direct or indirect commercial use of a name registered in respect of products not covered by the registration in so far as those products are comparable to the products registered under that name or insofar as using the name exploits the reputation of the protected name;
(b) any misuse, imitation or evocation, even if the true origin of the product is indicated or if the protected name is translated or accompanied by an expression such as ‘style’, ‘type’, ‘method’, ‘as produced in’, ‘imitation’ or similar...

It's interesting that Cheddar is considered generic, so people in Parma can make it. Parmesan is not of course, so people in Cheddar can't make it.
posted by grouse at 1:05 PM on August 26, 2007

Even if they were somehow unable to prevent Kraft from calling their stuff "parmesan cheese" or "parmesan cheese food," they were always entirely free to create and register a trademark of "Real Parmagiano Cheese" or "Parmesan di Parma" or "Authentic Parmagiano Cheese" or whatever.

Yes, and Hoover are also free to rename their product "Vacuum di Hoover", but they fight for what they had first, strangely.

Grouse: Coo, part b really is stupid. As am I for assuming it was otherwise.
posted by bonaldi at 1:12 PM on August 26, 2007

There seem to be three camps involved:
1. Anybody should be able to make and market "Parmesan cheese".
2. The word "Parmesan" should only be used in strict association with Parma.
3. The exact phrase "Parmesan cheese" should only be used in strict association with Parma, but phrases indicating Parmesanness (like "Parmesan style" or the like) should be allowed for other regions.

I'm squarely in the 3rd camp. 1 and 2 just seem silly.
posted by Bugbread at 1:37 PM on August 26, 2007

bugbread: What do you think about Cheddar cheese? Should producers of Cheddar cheese need to be in Somerset?
posted by grouse at 2:03 PM on August 26, 2007

Dunno. Never thought about it. But if they decided to pass a law saying "You can only call it Cheddar cheese if it's from Somerset, otherwise call it Cheddar style cheese", that would be no skin off my nose.
posted by Bugbread at 2:06 PM on August 26, 2007

Seems to me that on this side of the pond, where Parma is, it matters to most consumers that Parmesan is made in Parms, Italy. On the other side, where Kraft is, it seems to matter less.

C'est la vie.

I'm off for a bourbon... made in Brum.
posted by dash_slot- at 2:32 PM on August 26, 2007

Made in Parma, obviously.
posted by dash_slot- at 2:35 PM on August 26, 2007

Yes, and Hoover are also free to rename their product "Vacuum di Hoover", but they fight for what they had first, strangely.

Except they lost that battle a very long time ago, and now parmesan is an adjective describing a style of cheese. Just like anyone can make aspirin now. At this point, insisting that only Parma can make parmesan cheese is as misplaced as insisting that only sausagemakers in Vienna can make wieners, or that all buffalo wings must be prepared in Buffalo.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:44 PM on August 26, 2007

ROU_Xenophobe writes "Except they lost that battle a very long time ago, and now parmesan is an adjective describing a style of cheese. Just like anyone can make aspirin now. At this point, insisting that only Parma can make parmesan cheese is as misplaced as insisting that only sausagemakers in Vienna can make wieners, or that all buffalo wings must be prepared in Buffalo."

They lost the battle, but that's not the same as losing the war. Xerox lost the battle, when I was a kid, and everyone used "xerox" to mean "photocopy". Then Xerox fought back, and largely won the next battle. We'll only be able to decide whether the war was won or lost when the Sun expands and destroys the earth.
posted by Bugbread at 3:00 PM on August 26, 2007

The exact phrase "Parmesan cheese" should only be used in strict association with Parma, but phrases indicating Parmesanness (like "Parmesan style" or the like) should be allowed for other regions.

I'd concur, if what Kraft sells as "Parmesan" actually had any suggestion of Parmesanness in it. But in fact, if you try real Parmesan, you'll discover that it is about as close to it as mouldy Cheez-Whiz is to Roquefort.
posted by Skeptic at 3:19 PM on August 26, 2007

I was at the supermarket earlier today buying some parmesan cheese. There were cheeses that were clearly marked parmesan (from Italy) and other cheeses that were marked parmesan-style (not from Italy).

I think I also saw Chedder-style cheese and Chedder cheese, too.

It's not a huge labeling burden.
posted by porpoise at 4:29 PM on August 26, 2007

Interesting approach by brewers making beers under license.
For a long time, Beck's beer in Australia was imported from Bremen, but is now made locally under license (and, surprisingly, available as a grey import from the licensee in Turkey!).
I understand an element of the process is to add minerals etc to the local water to make it chemically identical to the German water.
So in at least some industries there is a realisation that chemistry is true.
FWIW the local Becks (and the Turkish) tastes OK.
posted by bystander at 6:31 PM on August 26, 2007

When I lived in Vancouver I often drank Kirin beer, which was made in Japan. When eating in a sushi bar in California, I happened to look at the label on my Kirin, and that one was made in Vancouver, under license by Molson. Go figure.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 8:46 AM on August 27, 2007

Which hysterically lets them put an "Imported" label on it in the US.
posted by smackfu at 9:12 AM on August 27, 2007

FWIW the local Becks (and the Turkish) tastes OK

Turkish "Miller" tastes kick-ass. I wish the same could be said of Miller.
posted by aramaic at 9:34 AM on August 27, 2007

Red-faced women will have to hand in their clapped-out sex toys under a new EU law. They must take back old vibrators for recycling before they can buy a new one.
The Sun, 04 February 2004, page 22

Read the heavies if you like, sometimes they get lucky. The Sun gets it right every time.
posted by StephenB at 1:02 PM on August 27, 2007

But, but, but...when is McDonalds going to pay it's back-royalties to the citizens of Hamburg? Hmmm? All this cheese and wine is chicken feed, in comparison.

And puhleese. I've lived abroad almost 10 years now, and I've had it up to hear (raises hand over head) with the utter shit that is sold labeled as "American!" (and it isn't the shit we Americans tend to love, either. This is different shit).

And who's the pinko commie asshole who decided to call that weird yellow plastic crap "American Cheese"?! Talk about being offensive!

And what's up with those Dutch, anyway? Down here in South Africa, they sell all kinds of "Gouda" cheese that is no more Gouda than the stuff I blow into a kleenex tissue. Why aren't the Dutch getting after these fool Afrikaaners and their crappy cheese? (seriously, as I love real, aged Gouda, and the SA stuff is garbage). I just hope certain automobile manufacturers (cough) Mercedes (cough) do better with making cars down here!
posted by Goofyy at 6:45 AM on August 28, 2007