US Americans can help
August 26, 2007 1:47 PM   Subscribe

Miss Teen South Carolina, why are Americans bad at geography?
posted by mathowie (170 comments total) 13 users marked this as a favorite

 
Sorry, it's a one link youtube and it's a bit LOLbeautyqueens, but what's great about it is just the inner stage mom taking over and telling her to ALWAYS START WITH I PERSONALLY BELIEVE and END WITH AMERICA CAN MAKE THINGS BETTER FOR THE WORLD IN EVERY ANSWER!
posted by mathowie at 1:47 PM on August 26, 2007


The funniest part is it doesn't even look like she realizes she's fucking up. At this point, getting embarrassed, flustered, or even breaking down crying would look better.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 1:50 PM on August 26, 2007


Can I start telling my blonde jokes now? Please? Puhleeeze?
posted by bashos_frog at 1:50 PM on August 26, 2007


I like this version.
posted by blue_beetle at 1:51 PM on August 26, 2007


She was the answer to the question before she even began to speak.

For a sucky one link youtube post, it is very meta.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:52 PM on August 26, 2007 [3 favorites]


ahem. this version
posted by blue_beetle at 1:52 PM on August 26, 2007


I HAS A MAP!
OH NOES!!1! - THEY BE STEALIN' MY MAP!!
posted by bashos_frog at 1:52 PM on August 26, 2007 [2 favorites]


I'd hit that.
posted by billysumday at 1:53 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


Also, gotta love A.C. Slater's smiling reaction at the end of the clip.
posted by billysumday at 1:54 PM on August 26, 2007


Americans + Geography = Hilarious.
posted by ericb at 1:54 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


Cool Blonde Jokes | Blonde Jokes | Funny Blonde Jokes.

[NOT ANTI-BLONDE, AS I AM BLONDE MYSELF]
posted by ericb at 1:57 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


Man, I can't wait until she's elected president.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 1:58 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


Transcript:
"I personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so because...ah some...people out there in our nation don't have maps and...ah...I believe that eh-education such as in South Africa and the Iraq everywhere like such as and I believe that they should....our education over here in the U.S. should help the U.S. or-or should help south Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries so we will be able to build up our future for our gen..."
Uh, what again?
posted by ericb at 2:00 PM on August 26, 2007 [5 favorites]


Geez. I wonder if *she* knows how to identify the USA on a map.
posted by CrazyLemonade at 2:03 PM on August 26, 2007


I love the clip but I think it would be even funnier if it got deleted as single link youtube LOLUSAMERICANBLONDES.
posted by srboisvert at 2:03 PM on August 26, 2007


IMG TAG PLZ KTHX

(That joke's not completely dead yet, right?)

posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 2:04 PM on August 26, 2007 [3 favorites]


I saw this this morning and thought... wait, so if she had said, "Probably because Americans put beauty contests and other irrelevant entertainment above education" would that have been better or worse for her in the long run. Keep in mind that even after the answer she gave, she still came in fourth.
posted by dobbs at 2:04 PM on August 26, 2007 [9 favorites]


Man, I can't wait until she's elected president.

Brings to mind when in 1999 Boston television reporter Andy Hiller quizzed then-Presidential candidate George W. Bush on the names of several foreign leaders and he couldn't.
"[Bush]...was asked to name the leaders of four current world hot spots: Chechnya, Taiwan, India and Pakistan.

He was able to give a partial response to just one: Taiwan."
posted by ericb at 2:04 PM on August 26, 2007


Geez. I wonder if *she* knows how to identify the USA on a map.

Oh, Puhleeze. It's like, totally, what's like outside this like hall like place where I'm like standing. Okay?
posted by mmahaffie at 2:04 PM on August 26, 2007 [5 favorites]


This isn't a viral for Beauty and the Geek?
posted by Tube at 2:05 PM on August 26, 2007


I agree with her.
posted by found missing at 2:06 PM on August 26, 2007 [2 favorites]


Can I start telling my blonde jokes now? Please? Puhleeeze?

Sure! [says the redhead]
posted by orange swan at 2:06 PM on August 26, 2007


Why do I have this urge to run screaming from the .... Shit, where can I run from?
posted by mmahaffie at 2:06 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


I guess she's feeling pressured by the circumstances, but she's surely had to answer such questions in rehearsals and other contests, hasn't she? How can she falter so badly? Gotta agree with TheOnlyCoolTim, above, that a total breakdown would reflect better on her than this blank, vapid, unbelievable ignorance. I'm going to cry, now. Thanks, mathowie. You make me cry.
posted by cgc373 at 2:07 PM on August 26, 2007


"[Bush]...was asked to name the leaders of four current world hot spots: Chechnya, Taiwan, India and Pakistan.

He was able to give a partial response to just one: Taiwan."


Hey, give the guy credit - he properly identifed the leader of pakistan:

"Can you name the general who is in charge of Pakistan?” asked Hiller, inquiring about Gen. Pervaiz Musharraf, who took over last month in a military coup.
“Wait, wait, is this 50 questions?” replied Bush.
Hiller replied: “No, it’s four questions of four leaders in four hot spots.”
Bush said: “The new Pakistani general, he’s just been elected-not elected, this guy took over office. It appears this guy is going to bring stability to the country and I think that’s good news for the sub-continent.”
Hiller persisted, saying, “Can you name him?”
Bush said: “General. I can name the general. General.”

posted by bashos_frog at 2:10 PM on August 26, 2007 [3 favorites]


And it's not like Bush can look hot in an evening gown, either.
posted by orange swan at 2:11 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


Awesome.
posted by Bugbread at 2:13 PM on August 26, 2007


Teaching Americans to be more knowing about geography should be fairly easy. Just make them pin little flags on all the military bases we have world-wide and name the nation.
posted by Postroad at 2:13 PM on August 26, 2007 [4 favorites]


This is why an LCD screen showing a computer running Google Earth in native resolution will be available for my children's viewing pleasure for a bit of time every evening after school, once they're a bit older than two years -- because I'm an equally Geographically-ignorant American, and I know they won't get anything better than I got in school.
posted by davejay at 2:14 PM on August 26, 2007


Ha ha! Look at the stoopit teenage beauty queen! LOL! Isn't she dumb!

Meanwhile, George W. Bush is serving his second term.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:15 PM on August 26, 2007 [17 favorites]


And you are lynching negroes!
posted by PostIronyIsNotaMyth at 2:18 PM on August 26, 2007


Jesus that was sad.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 2:18 PM on August 26, 2007


mr_crash_davis writes "Ha ha! Look at the stoopit teenage beauty queen! LOL! Isn't she dumb!

"Meanwhile, George W. Bush is serving his second term."


These are all true statements. I sense you meant them as some sort of scathing indictment of MetaFilter members, but I cannot, for the life of me, figure out what that indictment was.

Perhaps I should ask Ms. Teen South Carolina to explain it.
posted by Bugbread at 2:21 PM on August 26, 2007 [4 favorites]


Is it wrong to flag a (the) mod's post?

Actually, thank god you posted, Matt, otherwise this thread would just be full of people talking what a shit post this is. Might even be worth a MeTa callout. But, no, you have to ruin all that.
posted by absalom at 2:23 PM on August 26, 2007


For an awful moment there, when she said "ah some," it sounded as if she was preparing to blame the whole thing on Osama.
posted by william_boot at 2:25 PM on August 26, 2007 [9 favorites]


Eh, so what?

Her job is to be decorative, not insightful. Frankly, I've heard plenty of CEOs and politicians and priests spout platitudes just as content-free, as constructed from a string of cliches. Many people's jobs are not to enlighten, but just to look like they're doing something.

The whole bit of asking beauty-queens these questions is a sham, and we all know it. Whether it's to disguise the fact that they're on stage only because they're "hawt", or a sop to some PC idea that beauty doesn't equal brainlessness, whether to lend the pageant "respectability" or to deter critics, it's a sham. The girls are there because they're pleasant to look at and all that we really require of them is poise, not intelligence. (This is why I don't watch these things; I prefer people with brains over those with only empty poise.)
posted by orthogonality at 2:26 PM on August 26, 2007 [2 favorites]


Not sure why knowledge of geography is even important. It has no bearing on many people's day to day life unless they are driving somewhere, then of course they learn.
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 2:27 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


Harry Shearer plays these clips on Le Show from time to time,
(no links today as the intertubes seem boken) she is not the only one, there are many just as vacant archived on his site for your listening pleasure.
posted by hortense at 2:28 PM on August 26, 2007


"Ha ha! Look at the stoopit teenage beauty queen! LOL! Isn't she dumb!

"Meanwhile, George W. Bush is serving his second term."


so we're not supposed to laugh while bush is in office? seems to me that we need whatever we can get to avoid the staggering sense of doom that comes from paying attention to the state of the union. jesus christ, excuse us for not being deadly serious all the time.
posted by andywolf at 2:28 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


The saddest part is that if she had given anything approaching a coherent and correct answer to the question, she'd probably have lost more points than she did.

U.S. Americans don't wanna hear any crap about being self-centered and ignorant.

As an aside, I have decided that her awkward construction "U.S. Americans" should actually be the official designation. "Americans" is geographically vague and/or egotistical, and Wright's "Usians" is an overly weird blending of initialism and suffix.
posted by bashos_frog at 2:30 PM on August 26, 2007 [2 favorites]


From the comments on YouTube: "Anyways she's HOT. And hot girls don't need to anwser silly questions about some stupid map"

(so you can vote on YouTube comments now?)
posted by Sailormom at 2:30 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


NOT BLONDE-IST!
posted by 3.2.3 at 2:37 PM on August 26, 2007


People, please, hear her out! She'd got good points to make about, um, South Africa and maps and some people!
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:39 PM on August 26, 2007


I'll withhold judgment until I get to read a transcript.
posted by squalor at 2:40 PM on August 26, 2007


orthogonality writes "Eh, so what?"

We're laughing because it's amusing, not because we're trying to make some sort of deep insightful point. The question "so what" is a non-sequitor when applied to jokes.
posted by Bugbread at 2:41 PM on August 26, 2007


This is an example of one of those videos that is SO hard for me to watch. I literally sit there with a scrunched up face, barely able to pay attention.

I get so embarrassed for people when they do things like this.

Is there a name for that phenomenon? Vicarious embarrassment?
posted by lazaruslong at 2:42 PM on August 26, 2007 [13 favorites]


Afterthought: The question and answer should have gone like this:

Slater: Why can't Americans identify the USA on a map?

Miss SC : I'm not going to answer that without my formula sheets.
posted by lazaruslong at 2:44 PM on August 26, 2007 [15 favorites]


I sense you meant them as some sort of scathing indictment of MetaFilter members, but I cannot, for the life of me, figure out what that indictment was. Perhaps I should ask Ms. Teen South Carolina to explain it

It's easy, bugbread. This is shooting fish in a barrel, and we're usually smarter than that. Usually.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:44 PM on August 26, 2007


This was an out-take from "Idiocracy" right? Right?
posted by Thorzdad at 2:46 PM on August 26, 2007


Big deal. She only missed it by one.
posted by ColdChef at 2:50 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


Her job is to be decorative, not insightful. Frankly, I've heard plenty of CEOs and politicians and priests spout platitudes just as content-free, as constructed from a string of cliches. Many people's jobs are not to enlighten, but just to look like they're doing something.

Eh, I posted it because it's one of those rare moments on TV that goes completely unscripted. "Decorative" people like her and yes, CEOs, and politicians lead lives that are totally scripted to the last detail. Everything about a beauty contest is about practicing walking, talking, answering questions, etc.

There are never any surprises with these things and especially since on TV they're a dime a dozen (Miss USA, Ms. USA, Teen USA, Miss Universe, etc, etc, etc).

I posted this because it's one of those very rare moments when a boring predictable thing like a beauty show goes totally off script and wacky for a few minutes. It's not HAW-HAW laugh at the dumb blonde, it's "oh my god that answer went completely off the rails and made for an interesting moment of TV"
posted by mathowie at 2:52 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


I think she gave a great answer. The question itself carried no weight, and was barely a question in any sense of the word. It was merely a state of the simulacrum and the identity of nation-states being arbitrarily drawn and constructed. Indeed the very concept of "Americans" is a derivative, a completely arbitrary distinction for those living in a completely arbitrarily defined segment of Euclidean space. The very idea of "American" is a second derivative, not one of space but of time. It is at this very instant of infinitesimal time alone, that we exist as Americans occupying the boundaries much as a point of infinity on a Riemann sphere.

"I personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so"

Notice that much as our very constitution that defined as a republic was merely a poor facsimile for a Ciceronian government led by the Aristocratic, the elite class that represents the majority, a sort of pseudo-democracy where the individual remains abstracted (notice the rough grammatical transition from the concept of the individual, of the "I", into the whole, a Hegelian transition of epistemology in which by assuming the knowledge we change as much as the knowledge it self changes).

"because...ah some...people out there in our nation don't have maps and...ah...I believe that eh-education such as in South Africa and the Iraq everywhere like such as and I believe that they should...."

The globalization of our society as we de-industrialize makes our great capitalist experiment rely on a disjointed, often ill-understood trade with disparate countries. From using the political might and will of capitalism to embargo South Africa into ending Apartheid to the increasing privatization in the first shareholder war in Iraq, our common link is not culture, language or heritage but that of consumer excess, profit maximization of shareholders and the consideration of NGO stakeholders.

"our education over here in the U.S. should help the U.S. or-or should help south Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries so we will be able to build up our future for our gen..."

The stream of consciousness exploration refers to the failed scientific Leninist-Marxist theory of the proletariat rising up in the most industrialized countries (Germany, England) and instead taking place in the peasant societies of Eastern Europe. Instead of invalidating the theory for its lack of falsification following a Popperanian scientific logic, she discounts the usefulness of the hypothetical-deductive model in favor of the logical positivism of the Vienna Circle. The revolution happening in Russian instead of Germany, the poverty of Africa and Iraq despite imposed Western liberal democracies does not invalidate that they should be there. It is not a scale invariant process (as she moves from continents, to nations to geographic regions), but rather a continuous process in which the results do not matter, and it is the means, not the ends.
posted by geoff. at 2:53 PM on August 26, 2007 [63 favorites]


I like turtles.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:56 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


mathowie writes "I posted this because it's one of those very rare moments when a boring predictable thing like a beauty show goes totally off script and wacky for a few minutes. It's not HAW-HAW laugh at the dumb blonde, it's 'oh my god that answer went completely off the rails and made for an interesting moment of TV'"

Yeah, I was kinda wrestling with "why is this funny, while the incoherent guy at the supermarket isn't", and that pretty much sums it up.
posted by Bugbread at 2:57 PM on August 26, 2007


I'm with lazaruslong. I could not watch the youtube clip all the way through as I felt so embarrassed, though I was able to listen to the rest of it on ytmnd.

I've wondered about this before and would also like to know more about it.
posted by futureproof at 2:59 PM on August 26, 2007


My favorite 'Beauty Queen' performance.
posted by ericb at 3:05 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


Playing Devil's Advocate here, she's been prepped to pretend to have knowledge about and an opinion on any question they ask - I rather think what's being shown up here are the limitations of that certain kind of safe, on-message falseness that PR-trained celebs give out in interviews, rather than stupidity. If she'd just grinned sheepishly and said: 'Well, to be honest, my geography's not that great either, so I can't really criticise anybody - I think it's what in your heart that counts,' then sure, she'd hardly come across as a genius but her answer wouldn't have got posted up here.
posted by RokkitNite at 3:07 PM on August 26, 2007


My official name for feeling embarrassed on someone else's behalf is Sweeney Sisters Syndrome because that's the squirmingly painful reaction I always had to those characters on Sat. Night Live.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:09 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


I don't think she can really answer the question either. "Well this is why I don't have a very high opinion of the general populace—a lot of them are grossly uninformed"?

The objective is to win the pageant, not answer the question.
posted by Firas at 3:10 PM on August 26, 2007


I... did she... what did...

I vote yes.
posted by The Deej at 3:16 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


I had to close the video maybe five seconds into her answer.
It's just too painful to watch.
posted by aerotive at 3:25 PM on August 26, 2007


What's wrong with all of you? We NEED Americans to not be able to find America on a map. That way, al-Qaeda can't follow us home.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 3:32 PM on August 26, 2007 [5 favorites]


The best answer is clear: bring animaniacs to every home!
posted by a robot made out of meat at 3:38 PM on August 26, 2007 [2 favorites]


If anyone's interested in this information (like, maybe you want to hire her, or something), her name is Lauren Caitlin Upton, and believe it or not, she was third runner up in the 2007 Miss Teen USA pageant.
posted by beagle at 3:38 PM on August 26, 2007


> Keep in mind that even after the answer she gave, she still came in fourth.

Out of how many?
posted by ardgedee at 3:41 PM on August 26, 2007 [2 favorites]


I'd hit that.

No, I mean I would hit that. Repeatedly, with my fists.


Humor: preferable when subtle/explicit? The debate rages.
posted by billysumday at 3:42 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


Laugh all you want. This woman will be writing political speeches in no time.
posted by telstar at 3:45 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


It's plain:

The Iraq everywhere, like such as.
posted by Devils Rancher at 3:46 PM on August 26, 2007 [4 favorites]


I get so embarrassed for people when they do things like this.

Is there a name for that phenomenon? Vicarious embarrassment?


I don't know if English has a word for that but German does: "Fremdschämen".
posted by snownoid at 3:47 PM on August 26, 2007 [26 favorites]


Thanks Matt. I might jerk off about hate fucking her later if I have nothing better to do.

Yes, I stole that directly from Vice, domdom can sue me if he cares.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 3:48 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


I have a spare map here, if any Americans are short.
posted by pompomtom at 3:49 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


An apt summary of the answer came from the Something Awful forums: She seemed to be just trying to fire off a list of memorized words and phrases (personally, such as, Iraq, education, future) without worrying about the actual meaning of her "sentences". She sees smart people use phrases like "such as", and so like a good cargo cultist, she assumes saying those phrases will make her smart.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 3:50 PM on August 26, 2007 [11 favorites]


If you liked this video, here's a chance to enjoy it all over again: read the transcript, out loud, as Mayor Quimby. You're welcome.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:51 PM on August 26, 2007 [4 favorites]


Out of how many?
posted by ardgedee at 6:41 PM on August 26


...? There's one for every state.
posted by joannemerriam at 3:52 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


..? There's one for every state.

I wonder if Lauren Caitlin Upton would be able tell us how many states there are in the 'U.S. of Americans!'
posted by ericb at 3:55 PM on August 26, 2007


"recent poles have shown that you'd be so hot sliding up or down one"
posted by tristeza at 3:55 PM on August 26, 2007 [4 favorites]


Most Americans suck at geography or knowing about the Rest of the World. It's pathetic. In talking about American lack of education with non-Americans I usually say that if we're ignorant about other cultures at least America has an awesome Constitution, is immensely creative, has a cultural relationship with freedom and is an energetic/energising place to live. If we're dufuses, at least we're busy and relatively happy at it.
posted by nickyskye at 3:57 PM on August 26, 2007


Wow. Robot girl short circuits. Neurons frying and smoldering ..bzzt...bzzt...hilarious and too sad. Thing is that if she'd focused on giving a genuine answer, she probably wouldn't have sounded so laughably stupid, but then again that's not the way to win a beauty pageant or a political contest or much of anything anymore seems like....superficial approximations of competence are an endemic part of the rot of this society and our time. It's not about being smart...it's about appearing smart. It's not about being interesting or unique it's about making all the right noises to appear interesting and unique. It's not about being genuinely gracious and caring of ones world or country it's about hitting the right notes to appear that way. Somehow this idiot thinks if she begins her answer with "I believe that U.S. American's" and says the buzzwords "Iraq" (Ping! 5 points!) and South Africa (WTF?), that will be enough to get her to sound like she understands the deeper implications of mass ignorance and a broken educational system that doesn't produce smart kids, but kids who know how to take multiple choice tests and game the system to appear educated. Her job is just to be gracious and upbeat and I guess she was even through blinding stupidity so I give her an A for effort, but man...is it wrong to laugh at this?? Are you nuts? All I have to say to that is HA!! HA!! HA!!
posted by Skygazer at 3:58 PM on August 26, 2007 [11 favorites]


Eh, so what?

Her job is to be decorative, not insightful. Frankly, I've heard plenty of CEOs and politicians and priests spout platitudes just as content-free, as constructed from a string of cliches. Many people's jobs are not to enlighten, but just to look like they're doing something.


It's important to the USA, and also complete sentences, in the nation of the world, put words in correct the order to learn knowledge helping children. God bless America.
posted by arto at 3:58 PM on August 26, 2007 [8 favorites]


> Out of how many?
> ...? There's one for every state.

Thanks for playing.
posted by ardgedee at 4:04 PM on August 26, 2007 [3 favorites]


I have a spare map here, if any Americans are short.

As a short American, I resent the implication that I need a map. I'm quite capable of finding my ass without cartographic assistance. The search does, however, require both hands.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 4:07 PM on August 26, 2007 [8 favorites]


Is there a name for that phenomenon? Vicarious embarrassment?


i belive that's called a 'douche chill'.
posted by fuzzypantalones at 4:07 PM on August 26, 2007 [2 favorites]


Better answer -

Slater: Why can't Americans identify the USA on a map?

Miss SC: Who cares? That's what pilots are for.

Seriously though, 20% of Americans can't identify the US on a map? I don't think I believe that. Yeah, I see all those Jay Leno man on the street interviews, etc. that make everyone look stupid but I always assumed he had to ask hundreds of people to get the five really ridiculous ones. And even if the figure is correct, it's a bit of a trick question for a Miss Teen America pageant because the only honest answer would be that a large portion of Americans are insular and uneducated which certainly wouldn't go over well with judges or the audience.
posted by gfrobe at 4:11 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


I demand the President create a "Council on Air Dropping the Maps to the Children of US Americans Such As" and appoint her as Map Tzar. It's the only hope for the children, and uh, the Iraq.

Yer doin' a heckuva job, Blondie!
posted by maryh at 4:22 PM on August 26, 2007 [3 favorites]


Seriously though, 20% of Americans can't identify the US on a map? I don't think I believe that.

I do. Something in the neighbourhood of 23% of Americans are functionally illiterate.
posted by orange swan at 4:27 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


Moments like this can happen to anyone. It's any performer's worst nightmare. You say a few words, realize they're the wrong ones, try to make it look like you meant to say that-- and all the while everyone is smiling at you and nodding expectantly, praying that you'll start to make sense ANY MINUTE NOW. So you keep trying, hoping if you say just the right thing it will all come together, or that they'll be so impressed with your final words they'll forget all about your first ones.

I've seen miraculous recoveries in my day, this chick gets in so deep I doubt anything but swallowing her own tongue or pulling her dress over her head would get her off the hook.
posted by hermitosis at 4:30 PM on August 26, 2007


Is there a name for that phenomenon? Vicarious embarrassment?

Empathy?
posted by kittyprecious at 4:33 PM on August 26, 2007 [2 favorites]


Empathy?

Surely you jest? You won't find that here.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 4:37 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


"mr_crash_davis writes "Ha ha! Look at the stoopit teenage beauty queen! LOL! Isn't she dumb!

These are all true statements. I sense you meant them as some sort of scathing indictment of MetaFilter members"


Your sense is incorrect, but thank you for playing along. Please enjoy the home edition of the "The Bush administration has fucked over my country" game.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:42 PM on August 26, 2007


Most Americans suck at geography or knowing about the Rest of the World.

2006 National Geographic Roper Geosurvey.
"Only 37 percent of young Americans can find Iraq on a map – although though US troops have been there since 2003. Twenty percent think Sudan is in Asia. (It's the largest country in Africa.) And 48 percent believe the majority population in India is Muslim. (It's Hindu.)

In a 2002 survey of people 18 to 24 years old in nine nations, Americans scored next to the bottom in knowledge of geography. Only Mexicans placed lower."*
posted by ericb at 4:50 PM on August 26, 2007


I get so embarrassed for people when they do things like this.

Is there a name for that phenomenon? Vicarious embarrassment?



It's called "douche chills".
posted by wfc123 at 4:52 PM on August 26, 2007 [2 favorites]


The objective is to win the pageant, not answer the question.

Many years ago (betw '68 and '74) The 5 Miss Am finalists were asked "If you could meet anyone, who would it be." Two said "G-d," one said "my father" (whom she had apparently already met, so this made no sense to me), one said "President Nixon" and one said, and I give here the entire quote, which I have always remembered for it's total out-of-place awesomeness in the pageant context:

"I've always kind of wanted to meet Woody Allen."
posted by nax at 4:59 PM on August 26, 2007 [3 favorites]


Oh yeah. She came in last.
posted by nax at 4:59 PM on August 26, 2007


mr_crash_davis writes "Please enjoy the home edition of the 'The Bush administration has fucked over my country' game."

I'm an expat, so I have to play the travel edition.
posted by Bugbread at 5:00 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


I don't know if English has a word for that but German does: "Fremdschämen".

This is why I love German. Y'got yer Schadenfreude, yer Fahrvegnügen, and yer Fremdschämen!
posted by spaceman_spiff at 5:02 PM on August 26, 2007


Seriously though, 20% of Americans can't identify the US on a map? I don't think I believe that.

the thing about most maps is they have "United States of America" printed across the US. I would have to assume the map used in this slightly-to-totally-fictional "poll" had the names removed? Or perhaps some of the people they were asking were babies, since it says "20% of Americans" without specifying an age range?

But yeah, it's a national tragedy how many of our citizens are lacking easy-and-instantly-learnable-by-asking-anyone-or-the-internet factual knowledge. I would have said it's a useless and probably made up statistic that shows, if anything, that our schools are moving in the right direction by concentrating on teaching thinking and problem solving skills as opposed to the 19th century concept of forced rote memorization of facts and dates as "education."

But I guess this is one of the many reasons why i was never elected Miss Teen South Carolina.
posted by drjimmy11 at 5:04 PM on August 26, 2007


"Americans scored next to the bottom in knowledge of geography. Only Mexicans placed lower"

I think I see the next wave of anti-immigration talking points here.
posted by Mcable at 5:05 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


But I guess this is one of the many reasons why i was never elected Miss Teen South Carolina.

None of us were. Maybe we're just jealous.
posted by orange swan at 5:07 PM on August 26, 2007


Mcable writes "'Americans scored next to the bottom in knowledge of geography. Only Mexicans placed lower'

"I think I see the next wave of anti-immigration talking points here."


"They're coming over for our superior education system!"
posted by Bugbread at 5:08 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


It is an adulterous fact every day Americans are Iraq found without justice? Personally, I think that should be here and not there while very justice minded oriented propositions moving forward. Truly forward takes truth peace and educational opportunities for, God bless America!

*wild applause*
posted by Avenger at 5:18 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


Seriously though, 20% of Americans can't identify the US on a map? I don't think I believe that.

It was an unlabeled topographical Lambert Conformal Conic projection that included the ocean floor.
posted by StickyCarpet at 5:23 PM on August 26, 2007 [2 favorites]


America: love it or leave it
posted by Joseph Gurl at 5:32 PM on August 26, 2007


I was at a dinner at a scientific meeting once when the conversation turned to global current events. Someone down the table was talking about Tunisia.

An American professor next to me tried to change the subject: "Who cares about what's going on in South America, anyway?"

Several people commented-- no, it's in Africa.

"Same difference. It's not important."

A German postdoc remarked: "If you'll pardon my saying so, you sound like a stereotypical American."

I was deeply shamed by association. Ignorance I can handle, but ignorance + apathy is a fiercely bad combination, especially in people who are scholars and educators.

If I could have willed myself to disappear, I would have.
posted by Tehanu at 5:41 PM on August 26, 2007 [4 favorites]


It's not just ignorance, Tehanu, it's rampant aggressive ignorance. Ignorance that gets up in your face and tells you that you, too, should be ignorant, and fuck you for thinking.

It is frightening and depressing.
posted by blacklite at 5:57 PM on August 26, 2007 [14 favorites]


I feel sorry for her.
posted by peacay at 6:01 PM on August 26, 2007


If you don't know where other things are, how do you know where you are in relation to them?
posted by Deathalicious at 6:01 PM on August 26, 2007


If you don't know where other things are, how do you know where you are in relation to them?

"The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference or deviation.

The guidance subsystem uses deviation to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was is now the position that it isn’t.

In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn’t, the system has acquired a variation, the variation being the difference between where the missile is and where it wasn’t.

If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was.

The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows: Because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is.

However, it is sure where it isn’t, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn’t, or vice versa, and by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn’t be and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error. "
posted by Avenger at 6:34 PM on August 26, 2007 [3 favorites]


Circulating a video of an 18 year-old embarrassing herself on national TV just seems mean. I admit that I am becoming a softy in my old age.
posted by brain_drain at 6:54 PM on August 26, 2007


years ago i was talking with a biz buddy when i said

"to borrow a line from lincoln, the lord must have loved stupid people, because he made so many of them."

he responded

"lincoln said that??"
posted by bruce at 6:56 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


On the plus side, this is someone that we can clearly trust with a plate of beans.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:57 PM on August 26, 2007 [5 favorites]


I would have to assume the map used in this slightly-to-totally-fictional "poll" had the names removed?

It might be even worse; in past polls with similarly awful results, they've shown several shaded countries on an unlabelled map and ask to identify one. It would be understandable if it was between say, UAE and Qatar, but they were typically along the lines of "Identify Australia", with Canada, Chile and Sweden as the alternate choices.
posted by Adam_S at 7:17 PM on August 26, 2007


Moments like this can happen to anyone. It's any performer's worst nightmare.

I agree; I said as much in my comment on Mecha. Bad things happen to good performers all the time; as I said in my comment there, Beyonce, who is an incredibly experienced performer, with years and years under her belt, has fallen down stairs onto her face AND had her dress blow up to reveal her breasts in the past few weeks. But I'll be durned if she didn't get back up and keep on whipping her weave around.

Also, gotta love A.C. Slater's smiling reaction at the end of the clip.

That man is good at what he does. I think he learned to smile no matter what on the animal show he hosts on Animal Planet (can't remember the name right now). People come on with their pets and do really odd things (things like where the spider is crawling in your mouth or the dog is eating from your ear), and no matter what, he's always there, "Wow, that was....amazing!"
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:36 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


Keep in mind that even after the answer she gave, she still came in fourth.

Fourth out of the five remaining finalists, I believe. Imagine being the girl who came in fifth. Ouch. That's gotta hurt.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:38 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


What was the question again?
posted by mattoxic at 7:44 PM on August 26, 2007


"South Carolina: It's not the heat; it's the stupidity." Eh, it's a beauty contest, so this is like shooting fish in the proverbial barrel.
posted by pax digita at 8:27 PM on August 26, 2007 [1 favorite]


She's asleep at the wheel just like you probably are.
posted by Burhanistan at 8:33 PM on August 26, 2007


I don't know if English has a word for that but German does: "Fremdschämen".

Spanish also has the phrase "vergüenza ajena". However, on a side note, we don't really have a different word for "embarrassment" and "shame", both are "vergüenza". This video is embarrasing, the aggressive ignorance + apathy displayed by the professor in Tehanu's anecdote is shameful.

"Vergüenza ajena" is the sympathetic embarrassment you feel on behalf of someone else. In modern individualistic societies don't feel ashamed for someone else, though in tribal honor-based ones shame is shared among the family members and the larger community or tribe. I find it funny that common English usage needs to specify "you ought to be ashamed *of yourself*", as if anybody ought to be ashamed of their cousin. No, our cousins may embarrass us, but the shame is on them.
posted by kandinski at 8:41 PM on August 26, 2007 [2 favorites]


It's embarrassing that the poor girl is so ignorant in this matter, but if you asked me about the political machinations necessary to succeed in the world of beauty contests, I wouldn't have a clue, and I bet she might.

I also can't help but to feel (based solely on my exposure to their TV via metafilter FPPs) the Japanese would have skipped this part of the pageant entirely in favor of having all of the contestants smear chocolate syrup all over each other, or the questions would be "how often do you masturbate" or "what is the sum of money you'd need to pee on a middle-aged businessman."

The Japanese show would be more interesting and honest--and definitely more watchable.
posted by maxwelton at 8:53 PM on August 26, 2007


There's a NEW Mexico?!?
posted by Joseph Gurl at 9:13 PM on August 26, 2007


I don't remember much Fremdschämen for this contestant.
posted by jaronson at 9:16 PM on August 26, 2007


And it's not like Bush can look hot in an evening gown, either.

...Oh god, why would you do that?
posted by Many bubbles at 9:35 PM on August 26, 2007


Anybody who's been on national TV or any other major public-speaking forum and not vapor-locked feel free to ridicule.

The question is diabolical in its requirement that the successful answer would be the most politic while be honest and analytical.

So, smarties, what would your 30 second answer be as to why up to 20 to 51% persons of this nation (depending on the poll) are certifiable dumbasses?
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 10:00 PM on August 26, 2007


My school district only had one semester of geography, in the eighth grade. It's a wonder I know how to get from my house to the grocery store.
posted by padraigin at 10:18 PM on August 26, 2007


So, smarties, what would your 30 second answer be as to why up to 20 to 51% persons of this nation (depending on the poll) are certifiable dumbasses?
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 10:00 PM on August 26


"It's a consequence of a normal statistical distribution. This should be pretty fucking obvious if you had thought about your question for more than three yoctoseconds."
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:15 PM on August 26, 2007


Is it just me or does she look more than a little like Jessica Simpson?

Of course, I don't think Jessica would give a better answer.
posted by SisterHavana at 11:35 PM on August 26, 2007


Here are some questions she answered a bit more gracefully
posted by Deathalicious at 1:14 AM on August 27, 2007


Here are some questions she answered a bit more gracefully

Well, heck, she's kind of sweet. She likes boys and jet-skis and food and living each day to the fullest. Now i feel kinda bad for laughing.
posted by stargell at 1:39 AM on August 27, 2007


And she can work that bikini too.
posted by stargell at 1:41 AM on August 27, 2007


I get so embarrassed for people when they do things like this. Is there a name for that phenomenon? Vicarious embarrassment?
posted by lazaruslong at 7:42 AM on August 27

I don't know if English has a word for that but German does: "Fremdschämen".
posted by snownoid at 8:47 AM on August 27

In Dutch it's "plaatsvervangende schaamte". I'd be interested to know if there actually is an English equivalent. I certainly have not come across it. Would be interesting to see if Fremdschämen could become as popular in U.S. American English as Schadenfreude all because of Miss Teen South Carolina or mathowie's FPP (whomever turns out to be culturally more influential) .
posted by ponystyle at 4:12 AM on August 27, 2007 [2 favorites]


Beyonce, who is an incredibly experienced performer, with years and years under her belt, has fallen down stairs onto her face AND had her dress blow up to reveal her breasts in the past few weeks. But I'll be durned if she didn't get back up and keep on whipping her weave around.

Wow, what a ridiculous comparison.
posted by gtr at 5:22 AM on August 27, 2007


maxwelton writes "I also can't help but to feel (based solely on my exposure to their TV via metafilter FPPs) the Japanese would have skipped this part of the pageant entirely in favor of having all of the contestants smear chocolate syrup all over each other, or the questions would be 'how often do you masturbate' or 'what is the sum of money you'd need to pee on a middle-aged businessman.'"

I live in Japan, and I can't help to feel (based solely on my exposure to American media via metafilter FPPs) that it's surprising that they did this part of the pageant instead of having the contestants deepthroat the judges until they gag and puke. After all, that's what's in all that Max Hardcore American gonzo porn, right? And therefore must be representative of average American tastes.
posted by Bugbread at 5:58 AM on August 27, 2007 [1 favorite]


Is it just me or does she look more than a little like Jessica Simpson? Of course, I don't think Jessica would give a better answer.

It would have been worse, because Jessica Simpson would do it in a way that made it clear she thought giving such a dumb answer both was cute and made her cuter to other people.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:07 AM on August 27, 2007 [1 favorite]


So.

I haven't really done more than a basic skim of the thread.

But I have some sympathy for the girl. This is an atrocious question to ask someone in this sort of situation. She has to answer, "Why are Americans so fucking stupid?" in a way that neither offends anyone nor makes her look stupid.

That she fails on both counts is unfortunate, but there you go.

Also, she has scarily lifeless eyes.
posted by sparkletone at 7:28 AM on August 27, 2007


Now she needs to go on SNL and make fun of herself to make it all better.
posted by paulinsanjuan at 7:55 AM on August 27, 2007


In other news, classes at $Large_State_University here in SC started back last week. This video didn't phase me even slightly. I've seen this all too much already.
posted by 1f2frfbf at 7:59 AM on August 27, 2007


I think this is great news. I don't have to bother with learning fancy GIS stuff or computer programming. I have an illustrious career ahead of me just pointing to the US on a map.
posted by desjardins at 8:47 AM on August 27, 2007


Eh, she's a beauty contest contestant. It's not her job to be smart. Her job is to shut up and look pretty and occasionaly jiggle her butt.
posted by jonmc at 9:52 AM on August 27, 2007


Also, she has scarily lifeless eyes.

I agree. They want to betray nothing, but her face is a lexicon of ultra-subtle emotions: Discomfort, embarrassment, determination, stupidity, annoyance, frustration, confusion, faux delight, self loathing, hate, sadness...all back and forth in quick succession. An amazing gamut of nano-expressions just below the surface. One can learn a lot from that face what people might actually be thinking when they're speaking. Also she's obviously also having an outer body experience as well. You know that feeling when you're in front of people and you just go into autopilot, except that in her case, the autopilot just done jumped out the window (w/o a parachute).
posted by Skygazer at 10:34 AM on August 27, 2007


A map of her answer done in London Underground style.
posted by junesix at 11:42 AM on August 27, 2007 [4 favorites]


Metafilter: "You make me cry."

StickyCarpet writes "It was an unlabeled topographical Lambert Conformal Conic projection that included the ocean floor."

Still appalling they couldn't pick it out. America has James Bay from the north, Florida from the south east and Baja California/Sea of Cortex from the south west all pointing at it. It's one of the easiest non island countries to identify on any map.
posted by Mitheral at 11:52 AM on August 27, 2007


I don't even sense any real self-consciousness there. She doesn't look she thinks anything is going wrong.
posted by anazgnos at 11:58 AM on August 27, 2007


Bugbread: It was a joke (if a poor one) trying to point out that judging something based solely on what we learn from a FPP is a good way to come to a biased conclusion.

I will be here all week.
posted by maxwelton at 12:21 PM on August 27, 2007


Re-cy-cling?
posted by Debaser626 at 12:23 PM on August 27, 2007


"She actually answered the question very well. No, not the question she was asked, but this question, which must have been presented in a practice round:
'Why can't Johnny find his way home? In your answer, please mention at least two countries that have been in the news in the last 50 years; be colloquial while maintaining a show of faux erudition; emphasize your utter inability to grasp anything that's said to you while the spotlight is shining; and, most importantly, do not even once give any hint of any notion of how to construct a sentence in the English language.'"*
posted by ericb at 12:35 PM on August 27, 2007


Maxwelton: Ah, got it. I found it a little...surprising, to say the least. Good to know that it's just a joke that flew over my head.

anazgnos writes "I don't even sense any real self-consciousness there. She doesn't look she thinks anything is going wrong."

Yes, but she's a pro. She may be incredibly dense, but she's at least capable of putting on a proper poker face.
posted by Bugbread at 12:36 PM on August 27, 2007


Mitheral: Sea of Cortez, you mean? I don't think our dear moderator is that powerful.
posted by desjardins at 12:45 PM on August 27, 2007


Ha!
posted by cortex at 1:04 PM on August 27, 2007


superficial approximations of competence are an endemic part of the rot of this society and our time

Skygazer, So brillianty said!
posted by nickyskye at 1:26 PM on August 27, 2007


oh shit. *brilliantly, damn it.
posted by nickyskye at 1:28 PM on August 27, 2007


Igry?
posted by Squid Voltaire at 1:57 PM on August 27, 2007


mathowie, a one-link Youtube post? From you? Really?
posted by davy at 2:17 PM on August 27, 2007


Miss Teen South Carolina given a second chance to answer the question posed to her!
posted by ericb at 3:04 PM on August 27, 2007


Factually Correct Answer: Americans don't feel the need to identify their own country on a map--if they did, the only maps we as Americans would allow would be those that show America smack-dab in the middle of the map and supersized to ten times it's actual size, to emphasize how utterly kick-ass we are in our own minds in comparison to the rest of the world.

Beauty Pageant Acceptable Answer: I believe that as the leaders in democracy, we as Americans have a responsibility to educate all of our children about America's place in the world, because the children are the future. We need to raise all of our children to understand that America is one nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you, America!
posted by misha at 3:55 PM on August 27, 2007 [1 favorite]


mathowie, a one-link Youtube post? From you? Really?
posted by davy


Hey, it's not the first time. It's a real trend with this guy. I think it's time for a callout.

Go for it, Davy!!!! :)
posted by The Deej at 4:02 PM on August 27, 2007


So, smarties, what would your 30 second answer be as to why up to 20 to 51% persons of this nation (depending on the poll) are certifiable dumbasses?

"Because honestly, memorizing the names, capitols, and locations of hundreds of countries is not very interesting or obviously useful for most people, so even if they take geography they'll probably lose the information from disuse."

It's different with math--you need at least arithmetic to budget your money (even on a micro level: you have $25 in cash and no credit card; how much stuff can you buy at this store?) and other day-to-day things, and you need higher-level math for the sciences. There are lots of things you can point to and say, "You need math for this, and that's why you need to know your times tables."

It's different with reading/writing. You need to be able to read, at least on a very basic level, to be able to do lots of day-to-day things. And you can tell someone, "Well, if you go around spelling everything wrong, people won't be able to understand you as well. Plus, they'll probably think you're stupid."

It's different with history. History is events. It's stories. It's cause and effect. Those are easier to remember and are (I would say inherently) more interesting than lists. The benefits are a little more abstract, but at least it's interesting if it's taught well, although specific names and dates may well fade.

Geography has the potential to be interesting, if it's integrated with cultural and historical stuff. That's what gives it context--you have to see each country as a country, not just a name, a capitol, and a location, or there's nothing to really care about. But there are hundreds of countries. To go into any depth (and summaries and lists of cultural factoids are pretty boring and forgettable, so you'd need to go into at least some depth) with all of them would take a lot longer than a semester.

Being able to read maps and find stuff has immediate, useful application (and it's more fun and interesting, because you're learning to do something, and there could be cool field trips) but it probably shouldn't take a whole semester to master the basics of it.
posted by Many bubbles at 6:22 PM on August 27, 2007 [2 favorites]


desjardins writes "Sea of Cortez, you mean? I don't think our dear moderator is that powerful."

Hey I'm trying to suck up here man. That's my story and I'm sticking too it.
posted by Mitheral at 6:23 PM on August 27, 2007


Hey Matt! This clip was just shown on Letterman! That makes you famous, right?

Or something.
posted by The Deej at 9:48 PM on August 27, 2007


On the Today Show this morning.

Oh, Matt Lauer, just have to out-insipid everybody, don'tcha?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:11 AM on August 28, 2007


It's not just ignorance, Tehanu, it's rampant aggressive ignorance. Ignorance that gets up in your face and tells you that you, too, should be ignorant, and fuck you for thinking.

It is frightening and depressing.


Shut the fuck up, retard!
posted by thanatogenous at 1:06 PM on August 28, 2007


... I've always wanted to post that on mefi.

I think people in those situations feign apathy because they are frustrated with their own ignorance. The internal version is "I don't know what we are talking about, so, I can't play the game... and I want to play the game".
posted by thanatogenous at 1:11 PM on August 28, 2007


"...what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
posted by ronv at 11:07 PM on August 28, 2007


The Miss South Carolina Geography Quiz!
posted by stumcg at 9:21 AM on August 29, 2007


Maps for US Americans web site.
posted by mmahaffie at 11:08 AM on August 29, 2007 [1 favorite]


From mmahaffie's link: Hee!
posted by EarBucket at 12:53 PM on August 29, 2007


Putting a more charitable spin on the whole pageant thing-- This girl was given a difficult if not impossible question to answer, and she blew it. She forgot everything she has assuredly been coached in dealing with unanswerable questions, and gave an incoherent answer. She did not make the final round, so I guess in a way, it worked. I haven't listened to the answers the finalists gave to their questions, but I'm guessing they were at least coherent, if inane.
posted by nax at 2:03 PM on August 29, 2007


mmahaffie: funny link!

Also, I am reminded that years ago a coworker told me about a scene from a play / movie / skit or something. A beauty pageant contestant answers a question about what her goals are by saying something like, "I want to feed all the children of the world, and end poverty, and bring peace to all nations. Then, I want to get my own apartment."
posted by The Deej at 3:31 PM on August 29, 2007


Wouldn't surprise me if Miss SC ends up walking away from this with a better deal than the Miss Teen USA prize. Maybe a reality show, recording contract, music videos, and product endorsement contracts?
posted by junesix at 4:37 PM on August 29, 2007


*loves the Zelda map, squirrels it away for later (having long since lost the original)*
posted by Many bubbles at 5:06 PM on August 29, 2007


blacklite: "It's not just ignorance, Tehanu, it's rampant aggressive ignorance. Ignorance that gets up in your face and tells you that you, too, should be ignorant, and fuck you for thinking. It is frightening and depressing."

Sometimes Number One, you just have to bow to the absurd.

I know where America is on a map. I could point out Iraq and Iran and Afghanistan and Australia... I might have a problem with New Guinea or Czechoslovakia, but I *think* I know how to spell that last one without looking it up. I might be wrong...

Fact is, none of this does me any good. I've never stepped foot outside North America and I have no intention to do so. I can't do anything about anything over there. Is that scary? That I'm apathetic about what's not here? What I find scary is we spend so much time worrying about fixing "Over There" and we neglect HERE. Let's fix HERE first. Let them worry about their "here" Over There!

It does creep me out that some people in this country believe we should bomb the Middle East into glass when they don't even know where the sand is. However, they DO that's "Over There" and if you are a practitioner of hate, you only have to know the difference between here and there. Still, I personally believe if you're gonna target a "there" you should have an understanding of where your target is located. So you don't miss, if nothing else.
posted by ZachsMind at 8:56 PM on September 15, 2007


In a 2002 survey of people 18 to 24 years old in nine nations, Americans scored next to the bottom in knowledge of geography. Only Mexicans placed lower.

See how well you do before mocking the Mexicans.
posted by IndigoJones at 5:49 AM on September 19, 2007


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