Johnny Reb Among Us

October 4, 2007 2:33 PM

The Union is Dissolved! Or, at least it will be, if these unusual allies have their way. While waiting for the results of the Second North American Separatist Convention, you can read up on the separatist groups who attended the first convention last fall.
posted by spaltavian (156 comments total)

Learning to get along with those we disagree with makes us better people...
posted by chasing at 2:46 PM on October 4, 2007

Sale said the League of the South ``has not done or said anything racist in its 14 years of existence,' and that the Southern Poverty Law Center is not credible.

The SPLC Intelligence Project is pretty credible.
posted by anotherpanacea at 2:49 PM on October 4, 2007

"Secessionists Meeting in Tennessee."

Doesn't that, like, happen every day?

bah dum bump, khsss...
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 2:55 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

I used to participate in that separatist's convention, but it's bylaws have gotten out of hand, so I'm setting up a new one - who's with me?
posted by phrontist at 2:56 PM on October 4, 2007 [4 favorites]

"The League of the South, a group at the center of the neo-Confederate movement, says it's not racist, but the evidence shows otherwise."
posted by anotherpanacea at 2:56 PM on October 4, 2007

Union Forever! All hail the federalist center!
posted by StrikeTheViol at 2:57 PM on October 4, 2007

We believe that an independent South, or Hawaii, Alaska, or Vermont would be better able to serve the interest of everybody, regardless of race or ethnicity

Sometimes the disclaimers tell more about something than the positive statements.
posted by Ironmouth at 2:58 PM on October 4, 2007

There must be some mistake. I have it on good authority - real good authority - that what they're trying to do is treason, plain and simple. Also, that this whole issue was completely settled over a hundred years ago, and that you shouldn't say "Union" because it's quaint or something.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:01 PM on October 4, 2007

Hey, you should invite Jacques Parizeau. He's gotten a lot closer than you lot...
posted by GuyZero at 3:04 PM on October 4, 2007

If at first you don't secede...
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:08 PM on October 4, 2007 [17 favorites]

> that what they're trying to do is treason, plain and simple.

But if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
posted by jfuller at 3:22 PM on October 4, 2007

South Postpones Rising Again For Yet Another Year
posted by Flunkie at 3:29 PM on October 4, 2007

The SPLC seems like they're kinda digging hard for dirt. Everything they're talking about in their "intelligence" page seems to be personal statements by people involved in the organization, not actual positions of the group. It's obvious that the League of the South is filled with a bunch of crackers, but, um, so's the south. I'm not sure what their point is. The organization doesn't seem particularly outwardly racist.

If that's the standard they're going to use to judge a group 'racist,' there are probably whole swaths of the country where any social organization with more than a dozen people in it would qualify.
posted by Kadin2048 at 3:32 PM on October 4, 2007

So the SPLC is unreliable when I'm arguing that fascism is a threat and it's reliable when it comes to judging these folks?
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:35 PM on October 4, 2007

It would be treason to just go ahead and do it, but to seek to have the US Constitution amended to allow the Union to be legally and peacefully dissolved, is no more treason than, say, advocating for reduction of the drinking age constitutes underage drinking.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 3:37 PM on October 4, 2007

If allowed to go their own way, New Englanders "probably would allow abortion and have gun control,' Hill said, while Southerners "would probably crack down on illegal immigration harder than it is being now.'

Why do they think that anybody would want to immigrate to the South, once it stops receiving its massive subsidies from the productive people rest of our nation via Federal taxation?

It's going to be Third World Plus Extra Jesus.
posted by Flunkie at 3:43 PM on October 4, 2007 [3 favorites]

I've always thought New England and NYC would make an agreeable addition to the EU.
posted by athenian at 3:47 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

I dream about New England/the Northeast seceding a few times a week. I also think an independent South would be pretty funny in an 80's nostalgia vein, because you know it would be a human rights nightmare and college students would be demanding divestiture in a matter of a few years.
posted by Mayor Curley at 3:49 PM on October 4, 2007

When a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
posted by blacklite at 3:49 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

It seems scary, but these guys are pretty much just a wildly racist version of the Society for Creative Anachronism. The worst they're gonna do is create an antebellum version of the Renaissance Faire.
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:49 PM on October 4, 2007 [2 favorites]

Take out the racism and it sounds like an excellent idea to me. The decent parts of the country could apply for membership in the EU.

Just have to make sure that California or New York gets the military rather than the South.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 3:53 PM on October 4, 2007

Don't forget about the Republic of Cascadia! I think we have a pretty good shot at becoming part of Japan ...
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:54 PM on October 4, 2007

For the record:

I live in one of the other countries of North America; we have no interest in separating or seceding from the continent.
posted by never used baby shoes at 4:08 PM on October 4, 2007

I'm not sure why people think that "New England" would be a particularly stable bloc. There are pretty dramatic political differences between Massachusetts and New Hampshire, and between Massachusetts and Maine ... maybe you could get CT, MA, and NY to form into a liberal super-state, but I doubt that most of northern NH or ME is going to want in. And the brand of liberalism espoused in VT is pretty different than in MA.

I know a lot of people in New Hampshire who would like to secede from the Union for the sole purpose of being able to build a mile-wide DMZ on the Massachusetts border (possibly after moving the border north a ways to get around all those suburbs that have popped up).

You don't get the kind of bizarre, theocratic conservativism in New England (for the most part) that you get in the South, but you do get a lot of quasi-Libertarianism and pretty dramatic disagreements over fundamental questions like the role of the state.

I'd give it maybe two weeks before the shooting would start.
posted by Kadin2048 at 4:13 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

It's going to be Third World Plus Extra Jesus.

You haven't seen crazy fundamentalism until you've been to an South American Pentecostal service (and I know from crazy fundamentalism.) As Mike Davis says, fundamentalism is the religion of the urban poor, and the global south has got plenty of that.

When a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

You missed an important bit:

'a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.' The South, at least, has always had trouble with that part. Not the declaration, necessarily, but coming up with respectable reasons.
posted by anotherpanacea at 4:21 PM on October 4, 2007

Why was Lincoln so gung ho on keeping the South, again?
posted by ZenMasterThis at 4:24 PM on October 4, 2007

I know a lot of people in New Hampshire who would like to secede from the Union for the sole purpose of being able to build a mile-wide DMZ on the Massachusetts border...

Then you know a lot of people who have no idea where most of the money in New Hamster comes from. I hope they succeed in their foolish quest, though. It would make life in Massachusetts much better.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:35 PM on October 4, 2007

Aren't these people Americans? Like "so long england off we go to America" Americans? Wake me when theyre willing to build settlements on the sinking islands of Tuvalu or other places ordinary people fear to tread. This whole "and we're taking the suburbs with us" mentality just reeks of cowardice.

Heck we all know this is going to go Jonestown in a few months anyway, better to have it go j-town overseas.
posted by damn dirty ape at 4:37 PM on October 4, 2007

I've always thought New England and NYC would make an agreeable addition to the EU.

Well, a large chunk of the Northeast's residents are in America because their ancestors wanted to get out of Europe, so I doubt that'll fly.
posted by jonmc at 4:43 PM on October 4, 2007

Besides - the war between the European Union and the European Confederacy would be a bitch!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:45 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

That's all right, jonmc, we'll let bygones be bygones.
posted by athenian at 4:51 PM on October 4, 2007

Whoa, is that Kirkpatrick Sale, the founder of bioregionalism!? Early author-hero of mine. What's Callenbach up to these days? Wonder if he knows Sale is out promoting his Ecotopia vision. What a blast from the past!
posted by salvia at 4:52 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

but to seek to have the US Constitution amended to allow the Union to be legally and peacefully dissolved

It already does. Nowhere is secession discussed in the Constitution, so I'd say Amendments 9 and 10 come into play:

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved for the States respectively, or to the people."
posted by spaltavian at 4:56 PM on October 4, 2007

"but I doubt that most of northern NH or ME is going to want in."

Oh no! Colebrook and Aroostook County are hedging! Where will we get substandard potatoes, juniper fronds and 30,000 more inbreds? And can we afford to drive 90 miles out of our way to go to Montreal?

(if anyone from The County is reading this, I apologize. I didn't know you had Internet access.)
posted by Mayor Curley at 4:57 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

The League of the South has never before issued a statement denying that it is "racist" because racism is a wax nose charge.

Gotta love the phrase. But leaving aside the race thing for a moment, some of the other doctrines are thought provoking to say the least. Among other things, they're gold bugs with a suspicion of fractional reserve banking, and given recent events, it's possible to see why.

Poke around a little, it's an interesting read.
posted by IndigoJones at 5:01 PM on October 4, 2007

That's all right, jonmc, we'll let bygones be bygones.

You say that now, but then England will start another potato famine and we'll have a whole new wave of priests, politicians, and cops.
posted by jonmc at 5:04 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

Just out of curiosity, if the South voted to secede, would *anyone* oppose it? It seems to me that the prevailing opinion is "don't let the door hit your ass on the way out."
posted by bonecrusher at 5:06 PM on October 4, 2007

spaltavian, you don't think it would affect interstate commerce a bit?
posted by salvia at 5:17 PM on October 4, 2007

Just out of curiosity, if the South voted to secede, would *anyone* oppose it? It seems to me that the prevailing opinion is "don't let the door hit your ass on the way out."

I imagine we'd miss the oil in Texas, the cotton in the Cotton belt, etc. NTM, most of the better American food and music.
posted by jonmc at 5:22 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'm not saying it's something I want, I'm just saying that secession is technically legit. The Supreme Court doesn't think so, but this was reaching on their part, they don't actually get to interpret something that isn't there.
posted by spaltavian at 5:25 PM on October 4, 2007

The notion of a fragmented USA is massively stupid from an economic standpoint. The so-called "South" would suffer the most, but as jonmc points out there's quite a bit of productivity down there that's necessary to the nation as a whole.

Big wins, small loses. That's why the various European nations formed the EU, they saw the need to have a bigger economy. Japan, as in so many things, is apparently an exception, though I will observe that while it's damn small geographically Japan does have close to 1/2 the population of the US.

Balkanization is simply a slow suicide.
posted by sotonohito at 5:37 PM on October 4, 2007

Yay, bash the South thread. :D
posted by Atreides at 5:37 PM on October 4, 2007

sotonohito: Balkanization is simply a slow suicide.

I'm not sure why we're assuming a balkanized USA wouldn't maintain a free trade zone or common currency.
posted by spaltavian at 5:43 PM on October 4, 2007

Well, a large chunk of the Northeast's residents are in America because their ancestors wanted to get out of Europe, so I doubt that'll fly.

That was back when Europe was the static oppressor. Most of us in the Northeast have realized the that real oppressors are our relatives who moved south and west to make provincial, backwards enclaves as well as the corporations who further their efforts propping up this ridiculous theocratic plutocracy.

Reunification was single-tear heartwarming for Germans fifteen years ago. Imagine what it will be like for those of us trapped in the Confederacy of Dunces!
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:43 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'm not sure why we're assuming a balkanized USA wouldn't maintain a free trade zone or common currency.

You're assuming that the North cares about sorghum prices and a new slave trade. The North would be better off without the South
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:46 PM on October 4, 2007

Mayor Curley, give it a rest.

Most of us in the Northeast have realized the that real oppressors are our relatives who moved south and west to make provincial, backwards enclaves

Yes, the South, which is economically far worse off is oppressing the wealthy, educated Northeast. They're as you say 'provincial and backward,' yet somehow capable of ruling the world. Make up your mind. Are all your opinions on Southerners taken from movies starring Charles Durning as the evil sherriff or what?
posted by jonmc at 5:48 PM on October 4, 2007

We can trade for the goods, and would almost certainly come out ahead. As for the music, I'm assuming that we won't actually jam the signal that caries our desperately needed Toby Keith songs.

I've burned plenty of Saudi Oil and digested my share of Thai food, but I'm pretty sure I don't need to be in a political union with either nation...
posted by bonecrusher at 5:49 PM on October 4, 2007

Which is to say, there's far more power (economically and politically) is places like Boston than anywhere south of the Mason-Dixon line.
posted by jonmc at 5:49 PM on October 4, 2007

spaltavan Look at their rhetoric and goals. They're isolationist xenophobes [1], with big helping of theocracy. Such people don't make good trading partners, or go for free trade zones and common currency.

But its deeper than that. The "South" isn't financially independent. Without an influx of tax dollars from the dispised USA they couldn't maintain their infrastructure, which would limit their ability to trade even if they were willing to do so.

I live in Texas, one of the few "Southern" states which actually gives more in Federal taxes than it gets in Federal grants. And the secessionists in Texas don't want to join "the South", they want an independent Republic of Texas.

Also, I think a lot of people would push for trade sanctions against the New South once it restarted segregation, slavery, or putting Mexicans into concentration camps. Which, if you look at the LoS website is apparently their second order of business after they execute all non-Christians....

[1] Note, for example the "south forever, mexico never" bumpersticker they sell, or the "Question Diversity" sticker. When you get down to it all their merchendise is dogwhistle racism.
posted by sotonohito at 5:54 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

As for the music, I'm assuming that we won't actually jam the signal that caries our desperately needed Toby Keith songs.

Um..blues, country, bluegrass, gospel, soul, rock and roll. All started down south.
posted by jonmc at 5:55 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

I never get tired of this rant.

I imagine we'd miss the oil in Texas, etc. NTM, most of the better American food and music.

Sure, out of necessity, we'd have to develop new renewable energy sources. Should be easy with the northward brain-drain that'll follow secession. So let the rednecks have their dinosaur-bone juice.

NTM, most of the better American food and music.

And let them have their grits and Toby Keith, too.

Seriously, fuck the south.
posted by John of Michigan at 5:55 PM on October 4, 2007

Um..blues, country, bluegrass, gospel, soul, rock and roll. All started down south.

Right, but I think it's progressed nicely north since then. You don't think the dusty-shoed shitsquirting southerners would try to kidnap and repatriate those blues singers, do you?

Ha ha.

Oh, wait.
posted by John of Michigan at 5:58 PM on October 4, 2007

And let them have their grits and Toby Keith, too.

and the collard greens, barbecue, fried chicken, candied yams...

and let's see, the founding fathers of rock and roll: Elvis, Little Richard, Buddy Holly, Fats Domino, the Everly Brothers, Jerry Lee Lewis, Sam Cooke, ...all Southerners.

So, we'd be left with nouvelle cuisine, clam chowder and indie rock.
posted by jonmc at 6:01 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

Right, but I think it's progressed nicely north since then.

I live in New York City, the Yankeest place in Yankeeland, but I give credit where credit is due. And using the modern south as a scapegoat for today's problems by pointing to laws form over a century ago is an interesting way of avopiding the fact that the North wasn't (and still isn't) some kind of racial utopia.
posted by jonmc at 6:03 PM on October 4, 2007 [2 favorites]

But, sotonohito, economics isn't the only concern. Europe didn't erase the borders and try to blend its cultures into a single national identity.

A separated South would help the rest of the USA become a little more modern in its approach to social, religious, and educational issues. Plus it'd shake out the political system, which has become corrupt to the point of broken.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:04 PM on October 4, 2007

So, we'd be left with nouvelle cuisine, clam chowder and indie rock.

Indeed. After the chefs and singers see what a cultural and economica and intellectual Mecca the Confederate States of America become, it'll be so hard to find a decent cajun place, or hear a decent Chicago blues band (er, wait, a piedmont blues band).

Perhaps southern fiction will have a renaissance. I grant you that. Something about human misery seemed to really gin up Faulkner, O'Connor, Styron, et al. Who will be the next scribe of the CSA?
posted by John of Michigan at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2007

Holy jumping dogshit. Did I say the north was a racial utopia?

I did not.

But I think the mentality that led to the Fugitive Slave Act, and Jim Crow, and lynching, and "Whites Only" signs is still festering not too deeply below the surface. Has there ever been a black exodus back to the south?

I think not.
posted by John of Michigan at 6:07 PM on October 4, 2007

(also, this is an idiotic argument, since most Southerners don't want to secede.)
posted by jonmc at 6:07 PM on October 4, 2007

Damn, John of Michigan, you got us Southerners and our secret plant to revert everything back to 1860 nailed. We'll just have to hire another famous actor to shoot you in the head at your favorite theater.

...


People who perpetuate these freakin' idiotic Southern stereotypes are as ignorant as those they attempt to demean. Grow up.
posted by Atreides at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2007

True, and yet, and yet, how many northerners wouldn't mind seeing those simpletons try their hand at running their own country WITHOUT FEDERAL WELFARE PAID FOR BY US BLUE STATERS?!?!?!

I really wouldn't mind seeing that at all.
posted by John of Michigan at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

Atreides, get your damn region to leave 1860, and join the rest of civilized America (read progressive, secular liberalism), and then we'll talk.

Until then, have a Coke and a smile, and a ban on dildoes and a ten commandments statues and bite a fat one.

(That's for all the south, not just directed at Atreides!)
posted by John of Michigan at 6:11 PM on October 4, 2007

But I think the mentality that led to the Fugitive Slave Act, and Jim Crow, and lynching, and "Whites Only" signs is still festering not too deeply below the surface. Has there ever been a black exodus back to the south?

Yes. there has.

Holy jumping dogshit. Did I say the north was a racial utopia?

I did not.

No, but whenever people start bashing the South, it's important to note that we don't really have anything to brag about.
posted by jonmc at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2007

wouldn't mind seeing those simpletons

they're 'moronic simpletons' yet they somehow are engaged ina conspiracy to rule the world. I say again, make up your mind.

Atreides, get your damn region to leave 1860, and join the rest of civilized America (read progressive, secular liberalism), and then we'll talk.

Randy Newman put it best.
posted by jonmc at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2007

The Iraqi parliament should soooo pass a motion endorsing and encouraging the break up of the US.
posted by sien at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

Yes, the South, which is economically far worse off is oppressing the wealthy, educated Northeast. They're as you say 'provincial and backward,' yet somehow capable of ruling the world.

Well, this guy at least thinks that although the south lost the Civil War, they won the culture war.
posted by wfrgms at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2007

Um..blues, country, bluegrass, gospel, soul, rock and roll. All started down south.

and the collard greens, barbecue, fried chicken, candied yams...

and let's see, the founding fathers of rock and roll: Elvis, Little Richard, Buddy Holly, Fats Domino, the Everly Brothers, Jerry Lee Lewis, Sam Cooke, ...all Southerners.

Are you just having fun, or willfully stupid?

The Beatles came from outside of the United States. Have you ever heard of The Beatles? Yes? Well, there you go, music has nothing to do with national boundaries. Shocking but true.

I will spare us all the list of everything else that falls into that category.
posted by blacklite at 6:21 PM on October 4, 2007 [2 favorites]

Return down south? Secondary migration streams? In numbers, perhaps. Percentages, not so much.

And if the south is so freakin' wonderful, why do you log in from, where is it, New York City?

No, but whenever people start bashing the South, it's important to note that we don't really have anything to brag about.

Um, the north DID set the slaves free, and we insisted on desegrating with all deliberate speed. And we FOUGHT to make lynching a federal crime (despite the best efforts of the southerners).

And we keep trying to get some decent healthcare reform, and other progressive things, but the fuckheads below the Mason-Dixon line are too afraid of socialism (except for, you know, all that money we give them)
posted by John of Michigan at 6:21 PM on October 4, 2007

I guess I'm not getting why I would be unable to listen to Buddy Holly if the South secedes.
posted by Flunkie at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2007

I live in New York City, the Yankeest place in Yankeeland, but I give credit where credit is due.

I've never like you more than right now jonmc. If you're ever down Tennessee way I'll gladly fry some chicken in a skillet for you while you sit on the porch drinking sweet tea and listening to the grass grow. You get 'it' and I really feel that, thanks for standing up for your neighbors to the south.

blacklite, the Beatles were most certainly influenced by american music, in the same way the RollingStones were. So come off thy high horse.
posted by nola at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2007

Dixie, don't go!
posted by breezeway at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2007

they're 'moronic simpletons' yet they somehow are engaged ina conspiracy to rule the world. I say again, make up your mind.

Don't quote me as saying something I didn't say.

I DID say simpletons (not moronic, but I don't disagree), but I never said they were ina conspiracy to rule the world. They ARE dragging us down, preventing us from being the best we could be as a country, what with their economic mooching, and Jebus-luv, and dumbfuck politicians, and all.

But conspiring to rule the world? Johnny Reb don't have that much gumption.

Hell, have you ever been down south? Christ jesus, I'M the one yelling, "Motherfucker, get me an ice tea!" Those bastards have molasses in their veins.
posted by John of Michigan at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2007

John of Michigan . . .wtf man? Jesus.
posted by nola at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2007

nola, meet Flunkie, who said it better than I did.

My point is obviously not that the Beatles sprung fully-formed from the forehead of Brian Epstein, but that you heard them even though you weren't in the UK. And they heard Elvis and Buddy Holly, even though they weren't in the good ol' US of A.
posted by blacklite at 6:31 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

Um, the north DID set the slaves free, and we insisted on desegrating with all deliberate speed. And we FOUGHT to make lynching a federal crime (despite the best efforts of the southerners).

And we made nice cozy ghettoes for them to move into, hospitable people that we are (and the fact free blacks could be used for cheap labor and union-busting didn't hurt either). And the North's 'opposition' to slavery didn't stop it from buying all that slave picked cotton (where it was sold to textile mills where immigrant children labored long hours weaving it into cloth). NTM, you're decrying ignorance and bigotry, while simultaneously engaging in simpleminded stereotyping. Irony, it's good for the blood.

And if the south is so freakin' wonderful, why do you log in from, where is it, New York City?

Because this is where my job and my wife's job is and where my family is from and because I like it here. and I'm in Queens. Trust me, the necks can get as red here as any hamlet in Alabama.

Have you ever heard of The Beatles?

Um, yes. And the Beatles' primary inspirations were all the artists I mentioned as they'd be the first to tell you.
posted by jonmc at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

Yay! It's another thread all about jonmc! Hooray! We haven't had one of those in almost a week!
posted by dersins at 6:35 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

John of Michigan . . .wtf man? Jesus.

Yeah, way over the top. Reserve that level of vitriol for bad bosses and sticky bottlecaps.
posted by breezeway at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

dersins, butt out. I'm on topic.
posted by jonmc at 6:39 PM on October 4, 2007

Perhaps we'd be wise to just nuke Michigan. MNS for president!
posted by garlic at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2007

Perhaps we'd be wise to just nuke Michigan. MNS for president

Unlike John of Michigan I'm not ready to right off a whole area just because of one asshole.
posted by nola at 6:46 PM on October 4, 2007

nola, I've always liked your style. Go get 'em. I'm off to watch some tube with the wife.
posted by jonmc at 6:47 PM on October 4, 2007

You know where should secede? California. We'll keep our tax money here and get to handle greenhouse gases and fuel efficiency our own way, without interference from the Bush administration.
posted by salvia at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2007

You people just scare the hell out of me!

I'm going to see if I can get refugee status in our neighbors to the south. You know. The Conch Republic.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2007

The south has no doubt been a pressure cooker of ideas and values since the first white man came to Virginia and started cutting trees to build a cabin. I'm not about to defend the evils of southern culture, as a southern born white male I'm as down on that as I could possibly be, but writing of the entire south as a den of evil is just as foolish as the most ignorant behavor you care to list.

It's your loss, yeah shake your head , it is. You won't ever see the gental south, and it's a shame. Please what ever you do don't come down here we have our share of small minded bigots.
posted by nola at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

The above was directed at John of Michigan
posted by nola at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2007

When I first heard of the secession idea, just after Bush's second election, it was almost shocking, and then as I thought more about it it started to seem like an interesting idea. The. U.S. is just so powerful, and with someone like Bush in charge it basically acts like the biggest bully on the block. If the U.S. disintegrates, the smaller governments will have to start cooperating with each other and with the international community.
posted by orange swan at 7:09 PM on October 4, 2007

I wish I could articulate how much people like John of Michigan make me want to vomit. It's sad that every time the South is even mentioned on MeFi, I end up feeling like I'm surrounded by an angry mob with pitchforks; nervously glancing at nola and wondering if we should bolt for the door or let a rebuttle fall on deaf ears.

It just makes me plain sick. Obviously there are a lot of fucked up things about the South, but anyone with a shred of character from any other region in this country should be able to admit their homeland has a lot of problems too; instead of being ready to write off an entire culture.
posted by Roman Graves at 7:21 PM on October 4, 2007

Did anyone notice that the League of the South's FAQ uses British spelling?

Also:

The Anglo-Celtic peoples settled the South and gave it its dominate culture and civilisation. We believe that the advancement of Anglo-Celtic culture and civilisation is vital in order to preserve our region as we know it. Should this core be destroyed or displaced the South would be made over in an alien image — unfamiliar and inhospitable to our children and grandchildren. We, as Anglo-Celtic Southerners, have a duty to protect that which our ancestors bequeathed to us. If we do not promote our interests then no one will do it for us.

Yeah, most white supremacist groups work on the same premise.
posted by krinklyfig at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2007

Stupid talks makes me think stupid thoughts. Are the nukes stored in the south and west, along with all the military bases?
posted by Rancid Badger at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2007

Obviously there are a lot of fucked up things about the South, but anyone with a shred of character from any other region in this country should be able to admit their homeland has a lot of problems too; instead of being ready to write off an entire culture.

I got 99 problems, but sisterfucking ain't one. But secretly I wish it was. Give it to her good for me, Roman. She done deserve it. Pretend she Darwin or sumthin'!
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:34 PM on October 4, 2007

Secession was settled by the Civil War as a practical matter and by Texas v. White (1869) as a legal matter:

The Constitution, in all its provisions, looks to an indestructible Union, composed of indestructible States.

Let's Ditch Dixie: The Case for Northern Secession

Are the nukes stored in the south and west, along with all the military bases?

We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.

If at first you don't secede...
Keep suckin' 'til you do suck seed. [/nyuk nyuk]
posted by kirkaracha at 7:36 PM on October 4, 2007

Hey, I'm back. Glad?

Yeah, I got sidetracked over on Cracked.com. Christ, that's funny.

Hey, sorry I make you all vomit and everything. But consider this. They don't call it the Southern Strategy for a reason.

I'll butt out now, but ask yourselves, would you rather live in a country with predominantly northern values or southern ones?

It's not a false dichotomy. Hell, I visit the south on occasion. Spent a few hundred bucks and a weekend in Chattanooga last spring. Sweet place.

To visit.

But back to southern "y'all come back now, y'hear?" values: Given its standing in infant mortality rates, spending per capita on education, number of executions, divorce rate (not that that should matter, but those southerners do love their morals and their Jesus, so you'd think the south would be a shining city on the hill!), and most other data that matter, the south really doesn't seem to have all its shit in one sock.

Plus they vote against their own economic and social self-interest time and again, bringing the rest of us down with them (there's a reason why Reagan announced his campaign in Philadelphia, Mississippi). Again, sorry to point all this out. And I'm sorry I "make you vomit."

I'll say it again. Fuck the south.

John of Michigan OUT!
posted by John of Michigan at 7:41 PM on October 4, 2007 [2 favorites]

Wait a minute. I'm from the South, and I don't want to secede.

It's almost as if you can't generalize an entire population by something you read on some crazy website. For example, I just read this thread straight through, but I still don't actually think everyone in Michigan is an asshole.

At any rate, I don't think we're seceding. Sorry. You're stuck with us! I'm sure we can all get along. We should all have a sit-down dinner. I could fry something. What am I saying? I could fry anything!
posted by gordie at 7:42 PM on October 4, 2007

Fuck. Fuck my drunk-ass proofreading skills. That SHOULD read: They don't call it the Southern Strategy for NO reason.

Sorry. Please resume your vomiting!
posted by John of Michigan at 7:43 PM on October 4, 2007

Wow, what a load of horse shit. I can't believe what I'm reading here. People are fighting about North and South? I thought my great great grandpas and their families settled this shit and that the time spent since then has been in working out the details like desegregation and equal rights. WTF?

The U.S. is in poor shape and has with out a doubt the worst leadership in it's history. But that's no excuse to fall into this cheesy separatist bullshit.

That said, I'm off to pick some banjo and sip some white liquor.
Yeeee haaawww!!!!!!!!
posted by snsranch at 7:43 PM on October 4, 2007

I'll say it again. Fuck the south.

John of Michigan OUT!


They're all after our Southern belles, the northern bastards.
posted by Atreides at 7:43 PM on October 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

The Constitution, in all its provisions, looks to an indestructible Union, composed of indestructible States.

That's not true. Article 4 Section 3.
posted by Flunkie at 7:48 PM on October 4, 2007

Shit, man. Just like a dog returning to his vomit, here I am again.

I have no life. I admit it.

BUT!

It's almost as if you can't generalize an entire population by something you read on some crazy website.

What website? That's a red/blue map. You southern fucks love you some Bush, huh? Thanks. (To be fair, most of the midwest and western fucks love them some Bush, too, but I'm on a roll.)

[B]ut I still don't actually think everyone in Michigan is an asshole

But I am. Oh, my. And how.
posted by John of Michigan at 7:49 PM on October 4, 2007

Ouch. . . I lived all across the United States, mostly West, but now a year in Rhode Island, three in South Carolina, and currently three in Maryland. And despite myself, I really like South Caroline. Sure, it's one of the dumbest states in the nation test score wise, but Charleston had some great colleges, delicious food, awesome local music, interesting customs, good businesses, and great people. Even polite people, which I didn't get in Rhode Island, that's for sure.

Not that Charleston was paradise: there was a lot of poverty and ignorance. But that's everywhere. Most telling sign was that I actually saw the poor areas in Charleston rather easily, Newport hid them away from the rich, white yachting community.

I know, Newport isn't representative of the North, but then again, what city is? The north of the US really isn't "The North": there's not much of a shared culture, and Boston, New York, upstate NY, and Ohio are wildly apart. I guess they are all prosperous, progressive areas. If the US were to fragment, we would all lose though, I know that.

There's a lot of good in the United States. There are great places, and bad places, good politicians and bad ones. I like the South. Even if she left, I would visit if I didn't live there. I would visit the Pacific Republic too, along with the Utah Protectorate, and the Cornhusker Territories.

Anyway, there is so much venom against not just a region but a people as to be very unbecoming on this site.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 7:59 PM on October 4, 2007 [5 favorites]

Lord Chancellor, I agree, except I'm an ardent Maryland supremacist. Since we appear to be practically neighbors, you know why.
posted by spaltavian at 8:06 PM on October 4, 2007

Do I love that guy? Are you kidding? Yes I love that guy! Of course, now that Deuce is out, there's someone that really needs to get on a roll. Seriously. 0-3? That's ridiculous.

Oh, you mean the president. Sorry, we're all very slow. No, not all of us love some Bush. Like the majority of the southern fucks in my city, I vote blue. It probably doesn't show up on your map.
posted by gordie at 8:06 PM on October 4, 2007

*waves at Spaltavian* Heya! Visit sometime. Or me visit you; we'll figure it out.

Yes, Maryland supremacy is odd. Very odd. . . I'm just an occupant of the state though, like that guy who lived in your dorm room for the year even know he didn't go to college.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 8:12 PM on October 4, 2007

I guess John of Michigan has never experienced, first hand, some real Southern hospitality.

True story here: Once when I was working as a dock hand some burley black guys came up to me and kinda cornered me. One red-boned black guy spoke up and said, "It wasn't so long ago, it would a been some white guys roundin' one of us up for a lynchin'."

Of course I was taken aback, but I responded, almost in a whisper and with one eyebrow cocked up Belushi style, as if I had just smelled a fart, "Do you have any idea how many people in my family died in the fight to end slavery? Are you fuckin' kidding me? You fuck?"

That ended quickly, with some hand shakes and back clapping, and we've been friends since then.

The point is, we've come too far to fuck it up now.
posted by snsranch at 8:23 PM on October 4, 2007

John of Michigan please teach us your advanced ways. Teach me how to be a more progresivisable Yankee like yourself. I so want to be more open minded like you. If only I could move to stink water Michigan and share a room with you and mother. Then you could show me how to "internet" and where the best hot dogs can be procured. Anyway, I'm done screwing around in here. If you and those who think like you had the sense to read and understand you might be ashamed of what you've managed to scrawl out in this thead but I don't see any hope for that , besides you're just fucking with us because you can. Ignorance knows no borders.
posted by nola at 8:26 PM on October 4, 2007

This is awesome. It's like reading the comments in a youtube thread without having to go there.

My experience has been this: the more rural the area, the more conservative the people and backwards the attitudes, with exceptions of course. It's hard for people out in East Bumfuck to see how they're subsidized by the cities when all the read and hear about is money being spent in the cities.

That doesn't make it not true, but it's an easy button for a dishonest any politician to push. Combine that with the natural antipathy that seems to separate the two groups, and we have this conversation.

(What is it about skin color? Seems like the lowest common pride denominator to me.)
posted by maxwelton at 9:02 PM on October 4, 2007

I love how when we're the bad guys, we're the midwest, when we're the good guys, we're the northeast.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 9:03 PM on October 4, 2007

Please take "backwards" to read "less progressive."
posted by maxwelton at 9:03 PM on October 4, 2007

I guess John of Michigan has never experienced, first hand, some real Southern hospitality.

i guess he's never seen the kkk hand out flyers at a shopping mall, either, like i have

or had a classic southern meal

or flipped around his radio dial in order to find a station that didn't have toby keith on it

or drove past a house with the confederate flag on it

or been asked to buy a box in the factory nascar pool

or hear of a preacher have his congregation pile up tv sets in the parking lot of his pentecostal church to burn them as "tools of the devil"

well, i've experienced all that and southern hospitality and much much more and i didn't even have to leave michigan to do it

did i mention that george wallace won the democratic primary here in '72? - hell, my neighborhood was THICK with wallace supporters

john of michigan, you not only don't know the south, you don't know your own fucking state
posted by pyramid termite at 9:06 PM on October 4, 2007 [3 favorites]

You Americans are all so busy hating on one another, it seems like you're forgetting how much the rest of the world hates you†.

That's funny. But so it goes. Tribal skull-cracking makes the world go 'round.



†Not me, though. I love you crazy bastards. Well, some of you.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:00 PM on October 4, 2007

Hey, I love the North AND South AND East AND West. I have no hatred for any of it. I even love the rest of the world.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 11:45 PM on October 4, 2007

This is hilarious...where were you guys when we were thinking about splitting up Canada over the Charlottetown Agreement and the Meech Lak Accord?

Y'all would have spiced up the endless debates about interprovincial trad barriers, elected senates and distinct society.

(Also thinking John is from the UP?)
posted by salishsea at 11:52 PM on October 4, 2007

I don't find anything published by the SPLC or the ADL to be very credible. They have a vested interest in exaggerating the virulence and threat posed by these "hate groups" because this is how they justify the money they collect through fund-raising. In particular, I have had experience posting on free-speech internet fora that have come to the attention of the ADL and been cited in their reports, and the comments they cherry-picked as evidence of "online hate" etc were either distinctly minority opinions or obvious satire.

They are basically just fear-mongers who push an agenda of censorship (particularly regarding the Internet) and thought-crime through the drafting and lobbying in favour of laws against "hate speech" and "hate crime". It frustrates me that nominally liberal people who can see through the fear-mongering surrounding terrorism and attendant legislation like the "Patriot Act" will fall for this nonsense, when the threat posed by these "hate groups" is objectively far less than that posed by Al Quaeda (exaggerated though even that is).
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 12:17 AM on October 5, 2007

Hey, you guys think you could leave off the Civil War long enough to look at the other two links in the post? #2. #4.

The interesting thing to me is that things are so screwed up that two sets of people who have so little in common are agreeing that the Union is broken.

OK, now, back to Chickamauga.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 2:49 AM on October 5, 2007

Ignorance knows no borders.

Wait, how come ignorance gets over them and music can't?

Don't secede, Texas! My mp3s will spontaneously delete themselves!
posted by blacklite at 3:21 AM on October 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

Upthread, someone asked about why people think New England would be a political unit: because we once were, and we nearly split off again once already, long before the south started getting uppity.
posted by Arturus at 3:53 AM on October 5, 2007

I'm from Minnesota.

We could go either way.

But can you not swear? Teenagers and old ladies read this.
posted by saysthis at 5:23 AM on October 5, 2007

Old ladies have heard it all already, and teenagers need to learn when and where an expletive might be required.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:08 AM on October 5, 2007

Fuckers.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:11 AM on October 5, 2007

... teenagers need to learn when and where an expletive might be required.

This is where they're supposed to learn that?








Savior, what a rectum.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 6:19 AM on October 5, 2007

Savior, what a rectum.

And fuck you, assfuckcheesecownipplefuckmonkeyweinerwiper!

See how much fun this can be, young'uns?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:29 AM on October 5, 2007

Children, pay no attention to the dried-up-sebum-stained and smegma-coated tissue of a comment immediately above this one.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 6:36 AM on October 5, 2007

Heh.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:39 AM on October 5, 2007

Fucko.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:39 AM on October 5, 2007

Dishpit.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 6:41 AM on October 5, 2007

*seeks arbitration*
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:45 AM on October 5, 2007

*arbitrarily calls someone a pusillanimous pustule*
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 6:50 AM on October 5, 2007

*Shakes Stavros's hand, agrees to bury hatchet.*



*Looks at hand; seeks out soap & water.*
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:01 AM on October 5, 2007

*pulls hatchet out of Stavros' back*
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 7:07 AM on October 5, 2007

Jebediah Springfield: People, our search is over! On this site we shall build a new town where we can worship freely, govern justly, and grow vast fields of hemp for making rope and blankets.

Shelbyville Manhattan: Yes! And marry our cousins.

Jebediah Springfield: I was- wha... what are you talking about, Shelbyville? Why would we want to marry our cousins?

Shelbyville Manhattan: Because they're so attractive. I... I thought that was the whole point of this journey.

Jebediah Springfield: Absolutely not!

Shelbyville Manhattan: I tell you, I won't live in a town that robs men of the right to marry their cousins!
posted by Totally Zanzibarin' Ya at 7:39 AM on October 5, 2007

Bunch of Cnut's old pottery found during an archaeological excavation in Northamptonshire!
posted by Abiezer at 8:00 AM on October 5, 2007

YEEEEE HAWWWW!
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:29 AM on October 5, 2007

You know what? It's fun to stagger around and pretend like your little patch of earth is perfect and everywhere else is a hellish asshole, but it's a pretty silly thing to stand on. I've met bigots and shitbirds exactly every single place I've ever been. I've been around dudes in the south who simply exude slime and hostility and vicious smallmindednes, but then again I've met almost the same people in the north east, the west and the middle, so fucking pack up your toys and fuck off to the little kids sandbox.

For every scumbag I've met in the south I've hung out with some of the friendliest, funniest and downright fuckin' fun to be around motherfuckers there too. That's how life works children, but enjoy your own retarded totally black and white world and learn how to hold your liquor John of Michigan, you're a fucking slosher, podna.

I'm off to get a po boy and a bottle of warm Dr. Pepper.
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:55 AM on October 5, 2007 [2 favorites]

a bottle of warm Dr. Pepper

That's just crazy talk.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 8:57 AM on October 5, 2007

Who was King Cnut?

King of the spelling mistakes

Just not the mistake I was thinking of.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:00 AM on October 5, 2007

I saw that and thought it must have been deliberate too, Kirth. And I believe that site is aimed at school kids. For shame!
posted by Abiezer at 9:02 AM on October 5, 2007

Whacko separatists choose to meet in VT one year, and TN the next? What next?! People who think "Gone With the Wind" is modern Atlanta are arrogant and condescending in a Metafilter thread?

Oh, I see they are, at that.

Divine_Wino, I love you.
posted by Tehanu at 9:11 AM on October 5, 2007

Independence California had this great graphic that cleared it all up for me.
posted by salvia at 9:41 AM on October 5, 2007

Looks like "had" is the proper tense.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 1:41 PM on October 5, 2007

I can't wait 'til the ragheads get their nu-que-ler chops together, and nuke a Northern city or two. Then I'll get to laugh my ass off. Again.
posted by cousincozen at 1:42 PM on October 5, 2007

You paid five bucks just to drop that gem of a witticism on us, cousincozen?
posted by dersins at 1:46 PM on October 5, 2007

Basically, yeah. Silly old world, huh?

But witticism? How do you mean??
posted by cousincozen at 1:49 PM on October 5, 2007

Raggedy Ann and Andy got the bomb?!!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:51 PM on October 5, 2007

"Raggedy Ann and Andy got the bomb?!!"

I beg your pardon. I meant A-rabs.
posted by cousincozen at 1:58 PM on October 5, 2007

I understood you just fine, T-roll.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:02 PM on October 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'm not a troll, Florence.
posted by cousincozen at 2:05 PM on October 5, 2007

Raggedy Ann and Andy got the bomb?!!

I think someone set them up.
posted by dersins at 2:05 PM on October 5, 2007

They'll probably lose all their bases, now.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:07 PM on October 5, 2007

They are belong to somebody, anyway.
posted by dersins at 2:09 PM on October 5, 2007

Sorry about the image -- here it is from my temp files. Clears up that whole "secession" concept for ya, doesn't it?
posted by salvia at 4:04 PM on October 5, 2007

Well, I already knew what the outline of California looks like, and where it is, so no - it didn't clear up anything for me, but thanks anyway.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:33 PM on October 5, 2007

But in that picture, it's a Republic. Because it seceded...? Get it...? That's the big difference!
posted by salvia at 4:53 PM on October 5, 2007

Given the amount of US bashing one sees in Mefi, it seems a little odd that a few early adopters of opting out and dismantling the whole enterprise seem to infuriate so many folk.

Someone already noted that the one remaining superpower made somewhat less super might be a relief to all concerned, and I have to concur.

So can we have a few defenders of the union lay out the case in calm terms? Something a little more substantial than keeping southern crackers (or northern crackers, for that matter) in their place?
posted by IndigoJones at 5:24 PM on October 5, 2007

*crickets chirping*
posted by cousincozen at 5:45 PM on October 5, 2007

Okay, well, I'll try to defend the Union. I'm not a US hater; in fact I serve in the Union Navy so it would be kinda silly for me to loathe the place. That said, I am not blind to its several faults.

If these United States were to break-up like we were talking about, good would be done in the end. We probably would get governments closer to the people, we would end the massive cesspool of politics that DC has become, and we would turn our focus inward. That said, great evils would also befall us: starvation would occur, maybe skirmishes over silliness, families might have a lot harder time visiting each other, infrastructure would collapse further before it got better. In short, many would die or suffer.

I believe (and this is me being not only optimistic but throwing my chips in) that we can get to the good parts without a total disintegration of the US. I believe that we can reform by slowly enduring the price, and by that endurance side step the cataclysm. And I believe that the United States can still offer the world good. And though we might be in a dark spell now, the world can gain from us. We have done things no one else could precisely because of the power we wield. The solution for our current problems is not to remove the power forever, but to use it wisely. Someone else will fill our void; can trust that they be better?

Thus my pro-Union responses. I really do love the land if not the manifestations all the time.

By the way, Japan would never have you NW, and the EU would never have you NE. We have more in common with each other (despite our differences politically) than any other nation.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 6:25 PM on October 5, 2007

The best bit of separatist potential is the north-west. Between Alaska, BC, Washington, Oregon, and California, we have more natural resources, more high tech, and more great pot than most anywhere else on earth; plus the whole west coast tends toward the social liberal end of things, which means healthcare and good work standards.

We'd thoroughly kick ass, the West Rockies would. If we could convince the province-wide strip East of the Rockies to join us, we'd also have a shitload of diamonds, oil, cattle, potatoes, Mormons, and, uh, whatever else there is.

Go, go, Fishadia!!
posted by five fresh fish at 7:02 PM on October 5, 2007

"...great evils would also befall us: starvation would occur..."

I think you're being overly pessimistic. I'd like to go on record right now and say that Yankees can always eat the peanuts outta my shit, and I'm sure my fellow Southerners feel the same way.
posted by cousincozen at 5:44 AM on October 7, 2007

IndigoJones: Given the amount of US bashing one sees in Mefi, it seems a little odd that a few early adopters of opting out and dismantling the whole enterprise seem to infuriate so many folk.

Well, I think you miss the whole dynamic. Most of us are big believers in tough-love for the United States. We criticize its faults out of an honest desire to see it reach it's potential.

But there are a fair number of reasons why I think secession is a reallly bad idea. To start with, it's just another version of the fundamentally conservative gated community utopia where you try to build paradise by excluding the people you dislike. The people who are going to get screwed the hardest by such separatism are the poor, elderly, and minority groups who depend on what little federal safety net we have, and federal civil rights laws which give us some leverage in the court system. It's a very Randoid vision of, "we have ours, so fuck off and die."

The second big problem is that the political geography just doesn't support such sharp regional distinctions. There are progressive populations in every state of the country, and much of the Conservative elite live and work in the NY-Boston megaopolis. Economies in many states are also diversified much more highly interdependent on each other than in the 19th century.

The third reason is that 2006 showed that a 50-state political strategy works. In March 2006 the idea of a democratic majority in the house and senate was considered a longshot. In November 2006, it was a reality. The best strategy for political change in the U.S. is not separatism, but active engagement and coalition-building with local and state progressive groups.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:42 AM on October 7, 2007