Who or what shot first?

October 14, 2007 11:05 PM

The debate rages on -- who really did it? Did Han shoot first? Did Greedo shoot first? Perhaps Greedo really really shot first. Or maybe the first shooter was something different altogether.
posted by CrunchyFrog (71 comments total)

Deckard shot first.
posted by The World Famous at 11:08 PM on October 14, 2007 [4 favorites]

I think it's a sad comment on me that my anger toward people who say Greedo shot first far exceeds my anger toward holocaust deniers.
posted by bluejayk at 11:15 PM on October 14, 2007 [14 favorites]

George Lucas shot first.

and killed our childhoods
posted by Avenger at 11:20 PM on October 14, 2007 [3 favorites]

My mother? I'll tell you about my mother.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:21 PM on October 14, 2007 [2 favorites]

Sadly, I know that BP got the quote wrong. It's "My mother? I'll tell you about my mother..."

Sadly.
posted by Justinian at 11:23 PM on October 14, 2007

aghhh, "I"LL tell you about my mother." I can't even mock myself properly.
posted by Justinian at 11:24 PM on October 14, 2007

whatever, I'm going home.
posted by Justinian at 11:24 PM on October 14, 2007

Look on the bright side Justinian, I'm pretty sure you're not a replicant.
posted by gwint at 11:45 PM on October 14, 2007 [5 favorites]

Sniper shooting from the area of the Grassy Knoll or Triple Underpassl
posted by Rancid Badger at 11:52 PM on October 14, 2007

Whoever shot first, I'm quite certain that afterwards, the ewoks fucking jammed out.
posted by horsewithnoname at 12:01 AM on October 15, 2007

There's no debate. Sometimes Han shoots first. Sometimes Greedo does. Sometimes they climax together. It's a beautiful relationship.
posted by crossoverman at 12:02 AM on October 15, 2007 [7 favorites]

Really, the most appalling thing about this tale is what happened to Greedo after he died:

After Greedo's death, his body was ground up by Chalmun's C2-R4 multipurpose droid for his bartender, Wuher. The rare pheromones in Greedo's corpse were the last ingredient Wuher needed to create the perfect drink.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:03 AM on October 15, 2007 [2 favorites]

Han. Shot. First.

Star Wars? That's where I'm a viking.
posted by dismas at 12:05 AM on October 15, 2007 [1 favorite]

I think what I find most annoying is that, whenever somebody remarks on how stupid Episodes I through III are, Lucas has the nerve to say the movies are for children, as if all you need for children's movies is a shovel full of shit...and lengthy scenes documenting Lucas's idea of senate politics or whatever.

The day Greedo shot Han was the day my childhood died!
posted by KokuRyu at 12:09 AM on October 15, 2007

Han took Greedo's prized Rancor-skin jacket as payment.

Greedo should have challanged Han to a game of chicken. On motorcycles speeder bikes. Behind the football field.
posted by cowbellemoo at 12:22 AM on October 15, 2007

Han shot first, in 1977. Greedo's shot was decades late, and even then Han got the last word thanks to Greedo's terrible marksmanship.
posted by punishinglemur at 12:29 AM on October 15, 2007 [2 favorites]

Star Wars is passable, but underwhelming science fiction. I wonder how many SW geeks have ever read Asimov, Heinlein, William Gibson, Greg Bear, Dan Simmons, Gene Wolfe, Orson Scott Card, (you get the point--I could go on and on...). I'm guessing not many.

Who or what shot first?

In other words, nobody should give a fuck.
posted by zardoz at 1:36 AM on October 15, 2007

I'm pretty sure it's "Lemme tell you about my mother".

I'm not sure - I seem to remember that there were 2 variants - one of which is when the event happens, and one when Deckard is watching it in his spinner going towards 1187 at Hunterwasser, and the dialog differs in the recording, for some reason.

Bladerunner...that's where I, sadly, am a Viking.

God I'm looking forward to seeing it at the theatre. Please don't ruin it.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 1:47 AM on October 15, 2007

Please don't ruin it.

Don't worry, it's mainly like it's been 'remastered'. It's not fundamentally different.
posted by chuckdarwin at 1:58 AM on October 15, 2007

Zardoz : "In other words, nobody should give a fuck."

Doctor Who is what some would determine to be "underwhelming science fiction." Hell, I can argue that it's not even science fantasy. I still love the stuffings out of it. I still care about it. It's fun! And it's fun to argue over Who Shot First until the next ice age, which may not be long in coming now, but even so, with all due respect to BlueJayK and anyone who gets upset when someone admits that Greedo shot first?

Greedo shot first.

George Lucas is telling the story. He wants Greedo to have shot first. It's his story. We can argue all we want, but that doesn't change the fact that George CHANGED the story on us, and it's his prerogative to do so (the little shit). It doesn't really matter. The end result is still the same. Han loses a coin to Wuher for the mess, and Greedo is a Sarlaac appetizer. Besides, Warhog Goa was the one who told an inexperienced Greedo to go after Han for Jabba in the first place. Greedo was way outmatched and Warhog knew it. Wanna blame anyone, blame him.

Greedo shot first.

If'n I were God George Lucas, the Ewoks woulda fucken been WOOKIEES, the Gungans woulda been fucken WOOKIEES, Artoo's beeps would be cussing directed at C3P0 every other word, and Darth wouldn't be both Luke and Leia's father cuz that shit's just fucked up. But it's George's story. Let the baby have his way.

Greedo shot first.

The Greedo & Han at the bar scene was not unlike any shootout stare down you'd see in a given western, except for the fact the two guys were too lazy to take it outside at high noon. Both men went to shoot at the same time, and in the original version Han was clearly faster. In the later version, Greedo was faster but a pisspoor shot I mean damn we're talking point blank range! You'd think with eyes that big he wouldn't suck so hard!

Greedo shot first.

I still liked it when Han walked on Jabba's tail, no matter how absurdly stupid and asinine that was.
posted by ZachsMind at 2:22 AM on October 15, 2007 [5 favorites]

"Let me tell you about my mother" and "I'll tell you about my mother" are BOTH right strangely enough. One happens when he originally says it, and the other is when they play back the video recording of him saying it. I don't know this cus I am a film nerd who can recite Blade Runner to you word for word, I swear. I first heard it sampled in a Tricky song, and then when I saw the film and I realized the source I had one of those revelations, like a puzzle piece finally fitting into place. But then I heard it the second time and had a bit of cognitive dissonance, but nothing a punch in the face wouldn't fix.
posted by thetruthisjustalie at 2:25 AM on October 15, 2007 [4 favorites]

zardoz - may I suggest that it's possible to enjoy those wonderful authors and Star Wars? And further, that enjoying Star Wars takes nothing away from that fine list of creators you've compiled? In a genre that deals with, you know, the endless expanse of billions upon billions of universes, there might just be enough room for everyone?

And if you're gonna do the name-dropping sci-fi thing, then where's Larry Niven?

Oh, and Han shot first. I don't care how many special remix editions Lucas puts out. Han shot first. And there was never a big lame CG song and dance number in Jabba's palace.
posted by EatTheWeak at 2:28 AM on October 15, 2007 [4 favorites]

"I've been looking forward to this thread for a long time."

"Yes. I bet you have."

PYEW! PYEW! PYEW! PYEW!
posted by ZachsMind at 2:36 AM on October 15, 2007 [1 favorite]

Here's a third version that should please everyone, young and old alike.
posted by ZachsMind at 2:39 AM on October 15, 2007 [9 favorites]

Why did we have to drag Orson Scott Card's Hitler apolgizing ass into this?
posted by GavinR at 2:57 AM on October 15, 2007

"Let me tell you about my mother" and "I'll tell you about my mother" are BOTH right

Yep, that's what I thought. The soundtrack - as in, the dialog, the sfx, and the music to that thing are pretty much burned into my brain by now. "Lemme tell you about my mother" is the first, and "I'll tell you about my mother" the second.

As to whether it's a simple continuity error or deliberately consistent with the film's themes of memory and identity, I am unsure - but I would bet on deliberate.

While I'm geeking out, there's also a subtle audio flash forward of Deckard describing Rachel's memory of the spider in the otherwise wordless shot midway through her VK test at the Tyrell Corp, which is a fascinating sound design choice which I'm still not sure what to make of. I wonder if they were trying to deliberately induce deja-vu when the viewer conciously hears Deckards description later on, and so make us question our own memories in the way Rachel has to confront hers.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 2:59 AM on October 15, 2007

While I'm geeking out, there's also a subtle audio flash forward of Deckard describing Rachel's memory of the spider in the otherwise wordless shot midway through her VK test at the Tyrell Corp, which is a fascinating sound design choice which I'm still not sure what to make of. I wonder if they were trying to deliberately induce deja-vu when the viewer conciously hears Deckards description later on, and so make us question our own memories in the way Rachel has to confront hers.

Yes! You are a total geek! (Of course, I know this because I also set off the geek detector, and I agree with your assessment, plus I also think that there's a reason the spider description is exactly the way it is, and repeated twice: I think that memory is sort of lazy standard-issue and implanted in those precise words, and the reason Deckard's delivery is so flat and monotonous (part of why Ford is perfect in this role like no other) is because he has it too, and that is part of his realization that he is, in fact...but this is a Star Wars thread...)

And it's not "Han shot first", it's "Han shot".
posted by biscotti at 3:22 AM on October 15, 2007

Greedo shot first.

People accused me in an earlier thread of not understanding an artist's vision. I understand or have the capacity to understand just as well as you, whoever you are, but the fact is that it's HARD to understand where a fellow human being is coming from, especially if we don't try. Perhaps we can't truly understand any artist's vision, even if he tells you straight up what he believes in, and what his vision is.

"I'm a strong believer in education. I'm a strong believer in math and science, but I also think it's extremely important that the humanities be taught, because the math and science is the how, and the humanities are the why, and it's very foolish to go off on the how without the why. That's how we get into a lot of messes." - George Lucas (47:35)

In 1977, George Lucas was just trying to get Star Wars finished. He just wanted to get that out of him, artistically. He was focusing on the mechanics of it. The engineering. HOW am I gonna get this piece of crap done and in front of audiences?

By 1997, Lucas had an opportunity to step back from his work like a painter steps away from his painting, and he reviewed the film with a critical eye. What did he want to really say with this work, and in what places are the messages he wants to say not quite coming through? Why does Han shoot first? Why would I want Han to shoot first? What does that mean? Why should he shoot first? Why can't Greedo shoot first, so Han has a reason to shoot back, or is Han really that villainous? Do I want Han to appear the villain, or the hero? Why can't he be a little of both? George Lucas was more interested in the WHY.

It's very foolish to go off on the how without the why, cuz when you do that, you have to pay for the mess. You have to go back eventually, and clean that mess up.

Arguing over whether or not George was right to change the films the way he did is like arguing that Monet used way too much green. Some wise old man once said, "Do or do not. There is no try." When one attempts to understand why an artist does what they do, you get to the do or do not. If you don't try, it's a definite do not. Anyone who thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees Han shoot first, isn't trying to understand the artist's vision.
posted by ZachsMind at 3:51 AM on October 15, 2007

Thank god we've solved all the important problems in life, like world hunger, global climate catastrophe, and the failing US economy. Now we can get this shit settled once and for all.
posted by Eideteker at 3:54 AM on October 15, 2007 [1 favorite]

Is this where someone points out that there's still no cure for cancer?

Whoops, wrong site.
posted by Deathalicious at 4:23 AM on October 15, 2007 [1 favorite]

It has nothing to do with this thread, but I've always wanted to see John Goodman play Han Solo.

"Look, kid, I've been from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful 'Force' controlling everything. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."

That, and Morgan Freeman as Obi-Wan Kenobi.
posted by EarBucket at 4:35 AM on October 15, 2007

That, and Morgan Freeman as Obi-Wan Kenobi.

And Samuel L. Jackson as Darth Vader.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:49 AM on October 15, 2007

And Gilbert Gottfried as Yoda.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 5:15 AM on October 15, 2007 [2 favorites]

mr. lucas wearing a han shot first tshirt. a better shot of the shirt here.
posted by andywolf at 5:29 AM on October 15, 2007 [3 favorites]

Zachsmind, Lucas can do whatever he wants as an artist, but Bill Watterson has to take directions from you? Are you a troll, or do you have the words ARTIST and MERCHANDISER confused?
posted by rikschell at 6:04 AM on October 15, 2007 [2 favorites]

I've always wanted to see John Goodman play Han Solo
Didn't he do that in Barton Fink? "I'll show you the life of the mind!"
posted by kirkaracha at 6:09 AM on October 15, 2007

I would've liked to have seen John Goodman play a Jedi in The Big Lebowski.

"Twenty-five thousand years of beautiful tradition from Nomi Sunrider to Qui-Gon Jinn YOU'RE GODDAMNED RIGHT I'M LIVING IN THE PAST!"
posted by Spatch at 6:17 AM on October 15, 2007 [2 favorites]

And Gilbert Gottfried as Yoda.

And Cassandra Peterson as Princess Leia.

And Crispin Glover as Padme-humping-age Anakin.

And, of course, The Dude as growed-up Luke.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:26 AM on October 15, 2007

(Applauds ZachsMind)

Look, changing the shot, and for the reason Lucas cited no less, is just stupid. Lucas is a whiny douche and a piss-poor shadow of the filmmaker he was thirty years ago.

But it's Lucas' movie. Sorry, guys, it is. It's not "our" movie, and it's frustrating every time people say that. It's Lucas' movie. He made it. That's how movies work. That's how America works. Lucas, I'm sure, is very appreciative at how many millions of people love his work, but we don't live in a society that en masse decides to be the arbiter of what "is" and "isn't" the vision of the creator, versus the statement of the creator themselves. And thank God for that.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 6:49 AM on October 15, 2007

Walter, what does this have to do with the fucking Clone wars?
posted by condour75 at 6:54 AM on October 15, 2007

ZachsMind: Doctor Who is what some would determine to be "underwhelming science fiction."

Totaly uncalled for. I request a ban - or even better, pitchforks and torches.
posted by the number 17 at 6:57 AM on October 15, 2007

Also, don't use this as the first line in your comment. Some people will reply before reading any further.
posted by the number 17 at 7:00 AM on October 15, 2007

Totaly uncalled for. I request a ban - or even better, pitchforks and torches.

Exterminate! Exterminate!
posted by Pollomacho at 7:00 AM on October 15, 2007

But it's Lucas' movie. Sorry, guys, it is. It's not "our" movie, and it's frustrating every time people say that.

I don't think anybody really objects to Lucas making a new version to release. What people primarily seem to object to are:

*Lucas's insistence on making the earlier versions unversions, retouching them out of history. Yes, whatever version is most recent most accurately reflects what Lucas thinks he wanted to do back then. Would it kill him to release that as a director's cut and allow people to see the original version, complete with no "Episode IV -- A New Hope?"

*Except for cleaning up shots, his changes suck. Sometime not too long after Raiders, Lucas went off the daddy deep end. Star Wars was a movie made for actual kids, with derring-do and rogues and blasters and things at stake. Starting with Jedi, his movies haven't even been for kids -- they've been for his lame, cockeyed, glurge-filled idea of what kids ought to be like, which is why they've ended up extra-pussified.

Yeah, he's allowed to do these things. Actually doing them makes him a douchebag.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:05 AM on October 15, 2007 [7 favorites]

Turmoil has engulfed the Galactic Republic. The taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute.

Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo.

While the congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of events, the Supreme Chancellor has secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights, the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, to settle the conflict...

Trade disputes, taxation, legislative debate: kids love this stuff!
posted by kirkaracha at 7:26 AM on October 15, 2007

Greedo shot first.

It's not a factual incident. There's no truth here. Only fantasy.

Why should anyone have to accept Version 2 of a fantasy rather than Version 1?
posted by brain_drain at 7:27 AM on October 15, 2007

We're looking (basically) at two different texts. One of them -- the one that "changed everything," the one that's burned into the collective mind of a generation -- is Star Wars (Lucas, 1977). The other one -- an alternate version that may well achieve primacy, especially in the minds of younger people -- is Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope (Lucas, 1997). They're two different movies, and in certain scenes they depict two different events.

Of course I understand that, where Star Wars is concerned, there are many different texts, beginning with the first theatrical reissue with the A New Hope subtitle appended. But if you really want to think about which one is "correct," I'd argue strongly that the original release is the primary text. Everything else is a revision. I mean, you can airbrush the Communist party official out of the photograph, but that doesn't mean you've removed him from the historical event. Likewise, you can add some blaster fire from Greedo to Star Wars, but it doesn't change the facts of how the character of Han Solo was first introduced to Lucas's audience.

Han shot first. Q. E. fuckin' D. Everything else is spin.
posted by Joey Bagels at 7:29 AM on October 15, 2007 [2 favorites]

I don't have my 1977 version with me on the road, but my recollection is that Han's was the only shot fired, not just the "first." Lucas added Greedo's shot when his therapist told him that being in touch with you-know-what didn't make him a bad daddy. Now everything is cute and harmless unless it reminds him of muh, muh, muuuuuuh, MOTHER
posted by anser at 7:39 AM on October 15, 2007

Maybe no one shot first. After all, guns don't kill people, walkie-talkies do.

Having become a father, Spielberg was more sensitive about the scene where gun-wielding policemen threaten Elliott and his escaping friends; he digitally replaced the guns with walkie-talkies.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 8:21 AM on October 15, 2007

Also: if Greedo shot first, then Casablanca is in color.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 8:24 AM on October 15, 2007 [1 favorite]

Fuck that Han and Greedo shit, I want to know why, when Yoda and Old B-1 Bonobo's ghosts are chilling on Tatooine watching Luke fly off to rescue his friends, and Yoda's like, "Don't worry Old B, there's another one," referring to Leia. Ben's like, "Say what? Who?" as if he's never heard of the twins, because he hasn't.

But then, at the end of the final movie (ep.3) Bonobo's got both babies in his arms, and delivers them to their respective owners, so he should know what Yoda's talking about all those years later. That happened well before he died in the first movie. Jedi memory trick.
posted by breezeway at 8:47 AM on October 15, 2007

Sorry ZacksMind, but despite your prolix and more or less cogent arguments, you are wrong.

Han shot first first.

Greedo shot first later.

You cannot deny this.
posted by Aquaman at 9:14 AM on October 15, 2007

Is this where someone points out that there's still no cure for cancer?

Nobody mentioned Bill Hicks.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:31 AM on October 15, 2007

OK - I'll go you one further and say that, while I believe that Georgie-boy had to winnow down his ideas through many drafts in the process of making Star Wars (and, while we're at it, fuck this "New Hope" bullshit), I think it was only AFTER Star Wars became the runaway success that we all so fondly recall that he became really enamored of himself and started talking about trilogies and prequels and the Journal of the Whills and whatnot. My guess is that George set out to make a movie, didn't have really all that much money, did as most artists do by starting off with WAY too many unfocused ideas, and proceeded to edit until he came up with a single movie. Only after he found himself with more money than God did he then realize that he could re-purpose all those discarded ideas and sell it as a giant space epic.

And that's where he loses me. Although I admittedly was completely sychophantic at the time, really I think the best movie he made was Star Wars - everything since then has been trying to sell us a brand, but Star Wars was a movie made as a movie with interesting dramatic tension, a non-manichean universe, and lots of creativity.

So yeah, Han not only shot first, he was the ONLY shot. After that, George became the studio exec he had previously loathed.

end rant
posted by fingers_of_fire at 9:32 AM on October 15, 2007

Han Shot First

It's not a movie. It's a story, depicted in a movie. And books. And comic books. And so on.

And in this story, Han Shot First. You can change the retelling, but you can't change the story. Especially not after twenty years.

Don't give in to revisionist history. Don't let a future retelling, no matter who retells it, change what history already knows.

That's like saying Michael Mann's Miami Vice movie is the "official" canon of that story. Of course it's not. It's just a retelling. Mann retold that story in a way he felt would play with modern audiences.

Lucas did the same thing. Except his audience, he felt, was kids.

Parents do a variation of this all the time. Tell a kid a story about how mice are "scared" of cats. When the real story is that cats eat mice. But no kid wants to hear that, even if it's the real story.

In this story, Han shot first. Lucas can't change the story. He's already given it to us. It's already part of the culture. But Lucas, in retelling it for his audience at that time, cleaned up that particular bit.

And shame on him for doing it. Because as the original teller of that story, you'd think he'd have more faith in it, and more respect for it.

Regardless, it only changes that retelling. It doesn't change the story.

Han Shot First
posted by JWright at 9:43 AM on October 15, 2007 [2 favorites]

A long time ago
in a MetaFilter far, far away...

Han shot first!
Greedo shot first!
Han shot first!
Greedo shot first!
Han shot first!
Greedo shot first!
Han shot first!
Greedo shot first!

posted by soundofsuburbia at 10:01 AM on October 15, 2007 [2 favorites]

I always thought that Harrison Ford would make a good Han Solo.
posted by Kwine at 10:06 AM on October 15, 2007 [2 favorites]

Better than Walken did? Like hell.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:31 AM on October 15, 2007

"It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."

Isn't it "all a lot of simple tricks and nonsuch"?

And, yeah, Han shot first. It hangs with the rest of the story so much better. If Conan Doyle in his declining years had written a story in which Sherlock Holmes was a comedy bungler, it would still be true that Holmes was a great detective, right? Some things are just ruled out by the logic of a fictional world.
posted by LobsterMitten at 11:51 AM on October 15, 2007

"Arguing over whether or not George was right to change the films the way he did is like arguing that Monet used way too much green."

No, ZachsMind. It's like saying that Monet used just the right amount of green before he took every print of his painting off the market and replaced it with one that now uses too much green, and, because Monet is a douche, he don't even let us by the "less green" and the "more green" editions of his painting, he just pretends that it has always been more green
posted by Megafly at 12:35 PM on October 15, 2007

The reason Han shot first is important. It is a character defining moment. It shows a man with resolve to survive, especially when threatened with death at the hands of a criminal such as Greedo. Greedo was one of Jabba's henchmen. He was basically attempting to cash in on the bounty Jabba had offered. Sure, it would have been a lower amount than bringing him in alive, but Greedo did not care, and stated as such. By stating this, Han knew his life was in danger, and his only escape was to shoot Greedo then and there.
His casual air and nonchalant "sorry about the mess" comment is a "who's next" comment to anyone in the bar who thinks they could succeed where Greedo failed.

It does not make him evil, it does not make him a bad person. It shows that he lives in a dangerous galaxy and is aware of the danger surrounding him. It separates his character from Luke, the star-eyed farmboy who nearly gets shot simply by walking up to the bar. Had Obiwan not intervened, the story would have ended with Luke lying on the floor of the cantina and a blaster hole in his chest. This would not have happened to Han. Han would not have apologized to the assholes who confront him. He would have smashed a bottle over their heads and Chewie would have started to rip arms out of sockets. Mos Eisley was the Star Wars version of Deadwood. Even with Imperial Stormtroopers stationed there, the law was only as effective as who was first to hit the target.

Without this backstory, without this setting, Mos Eisley becomes simply a space port on a desert planet. Some place civilized. Not a den of thieves and cut throat smugglers, bounty hunters and gamblers, living lives outside the law, making money by any means necessary.

But this is space opera. Without the context, it's just fat women and loud assholes yodeling in another language about their emotions.

You also completely lose the tension that comes in the scene much later in the movie on Yavin where Han and Chewie are loading up their payment and preparing to leave before the Death Star gets too close to escape. Luke is visibly pissed at Han because all he sees is this smuggler proving just how mercenary he is, taking his payment and running. They just shared this amazing adventure thumbing their noses at the Empire by saving the Princess, and all Han wants to do is take the money and run. And then, at the last minute, in the heat of battle, Han returns and saves Luke's ass in the trenches of the Death Star. Han isn't just some mercenary. What Luke said to him ate at his conscience and he came charging in like the calvary when all seemed dark and helped to ensure victory.

The story of Han is that of redemption. He was just some smuggler, trying to get by in the world outside of society, and through his adventures with the Rebel Alliance, he becomes one of the greatest Generals and hero of the new order.

And, you know, he's also based off an Akira Kurosawa anti-hero, so trying to make him a nice guy from the beginning just makes everything in the world wrong.
posted by daq at 12:44 PM on October 15, 2007 [8 favorites]

But this is space opera. Without the context, it's just fat women and loud assholes yodeling in another language about their emotions.

So lofty they shit marble, eh daq?
posted by breezeway at 12:56 PM on October 15, 2007

“George CHANGED the story on us, and it's his prerogative to do so”

Agree with the first bit, disagree with the last part. If I buy a painting and years later the artist rings my bell and says “Hey, I just want to touch up a bit I wasn’t satisfied the first time I did it” and he wants to paint the canvas entirely black - and then (and this is the important bit) re-charge me for the work, I’m not going to let him.
There’s a difference between artistry and shilling.
This is a different point from the aesthetic of Han or Greedo shooting first. Obviously it’s more conducive to Solo’s character development to have him shoot first and then later grow into someone who would risk his own neck such as when he comes to Luke’s rescue. All that discussion is old hat.
It’s Lucas’ right to change the work however he likes as long as he doesn’t eliminate access to the other forms and limit my choice.
I don’t like the childish version where Greedo shoots first, it doesn’t ring true and so it’s harder to suspend my disbelief in the work.
It’s a valid criticism that questions Lucas’ choice, not his right to alter it.
He could make it so no one shoots at anyone else at all and everyone has walkie talkies. It would, however, make the film less enjoyable since the sense of menace is gone, and indeed, the villians would be less plausible. And that plausibility doesn’t require a real world analogy - merely internal consistency.
Which, with Greedo shooting first, Lucas loses.

Additionally - the point as to whether something is “our” movie is contestable. Why resist Ted Turner’s efforts at colorization?
What is the difference between the artist as artist and the artist as owner?
If I had swooped down on Lucas with a bucketload of money to help him finish the project in exchange for sole rights to the film 10 years after it’s release I could make the force all about gastrointestinal pressure if I wanted and insert shots of Jedi eating beans.

People would say that sucks, and rightly so. That’s not demanding some change in artist’s rights, that’s a recognition of poor artistry.
Greedo shooting first is neither right nor wrong. What it is is stupid (and moneygrubbing).
(+ what Joey Bagels, et.al sed)
posted by Smedleyman at 1:08 PM on October 15, 2007

(Also, this marginalization of the issue is really a simplistic misunderstanding of it. It is not merely a bunch of fanboys sounding off about geeky factoids. (Granted some places it is)
This is about customers upset about a bait and switch.
But please, feel free to bitch about the used car salesman that screwed you over and we’ll all laugh at how foolish it is to try to buy an automobile when you know they can just make up anything they want about cars and there’s nothing you can do about it.)
posted by Smedleyman at 1:17 PM on October 15, 2007

What's a padawan, Walter?
posted by kosher_jenny at 1:40 PM on October 15, 2007 [1 favorite]

Twenty bucks, same as in town.
posted by yhbc at 1:47 PM on October 15, 2007

George Lucas lost the right to change his creation when he started pronouncing "Han" wrong.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 2:25 PM on October 15, 2007

Han shot first! No, Greedo shot first! No, Leon shot first!
posted by fandango_matt at 3:29 PM on October 15, 2007

Jason Alexander as Grand Moff Tarkin: “What’re you kidding me? *whine* In OUR MOMENT OF TRIUMPH!? I think you overestimate they’re ...uh...y’know...oh, FIRE THE WEAPON! ... Grand Moff Tarin is getting upset!” *storms off in a huff*
posted by Smedleyman at 5:15 PM on October 15, 2007

Solo shot Greedo,
in a bar on Tatooine,
beneath two bright suns.
posted by moonbiter at 2:47 AM on October 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

zardoz: "I wonder how many SW geeks have ever read Asimov, Heinlein, William Gibson, Greg Bear, Dan Simmons, Gene Wolfe, Orson Scott Card, (you get the point--I could go on and on...). I'm guessing not many."

Sure. None of us have read those. Or Piers Anthony, or Ben Bova, or Harry Harrison, or Philip José Farmer, (you get the point--I could go on and on...). No, no fan of space battles, no child who grew up enamored with the idea of futuristic weapons, robots, and distant worlds, not a single one was interested in anything other than George Lucas's vision of what that might be like.

There isn't a single Star Wars fan in existence who screamed bloody murder at Starship Troopers going from Heinlein's vision to Space 90210, no sir. We all blindly accepted that pile of steaming shit. Not one of us was pissed at the hack job performed on I, Robot. Marginalization of the central character, introduction of an entirely unnecessary Will Smith lead? Oh, we were all just pleased as punch there. Should I go on, or will you admit you made a stupid sweeping generalization, and shut up now?
posted by caution live frogs at 6:08 AM on October 16, 2007 [2 favorites]