Tase! or "Youtube Justice"

November 28, 2007 9:21 AM

"Officer, I don't know why you're doing what you're doing."
Refusing to sign a speeding citation in Vernal, Utah? That's a tasing. Requesting an investigation of the incident? That sounds like a job for YouTube.

And if you sit through the entire thing, you can hear the officer creatively describe the encounter to a fellow officer--"I told him to turn around or I'd tase him." In other news, the tasee has asked those making death threats against the officer on youtube (which are being investigated by the FBI) to please stop.

I was also struck by the bizarre levels of politeness demonstrated by both parties during the incident.

posted by mecran01 (314 comments total)

I'd have tased his ass too.
posted by ND¢ at 9:28 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

The trooper who shot Massey with the taser is under an internal affairs investigation. He is still on duty.

Say what?
posted by brain_drain at 9:29 AM on November 28, 2007

Laughable cops. That was the most mild-mannered person disputing a traffic ticket I've ever seen. His girlfriend loses points for not slapping the cop though.
posted by anthill at 9:30 AM on November 28, 2007

ND¢: "I'd have tased his ass too."

The fuck is wrong with you people? A guy who contests a speeding ticket deserves to get tased in front of his wife? Fuck off.

This is why we deserve this police state. I'd have tased his ass too. What a crock of shit.
posted by lazaruslong at 9:31 AM on November 28, 2007 [47 favorites]

"he wouldn't obey so he took a ride on the taser"
posted by anthill at 9:32 AM on November 28, 2007

The fuck is wrong with you people? A guy who contests a speeding ticket deserves to get tased in front of his wife? Fuck off.

The fuck is fucking wrong with you fucking fucks? Fucking fuck comes here commenting a bunch of fucking fuck and the only fucking thing you can say is some fucking shit? Fuck, man.
posted by xmutex at 9:34 AM on November 28, 2007 [27 favorites]

If this guy wanted to contest his ticket he could have gone to the courthouse to do so. What you can't do is get out of your car during a lawful traffic stop and start making demands on a police officer. I am as much against abuse of authority as the next guy, but I think the cop was within his rights to tase the guy.
posted by ND¢ at 9:34 AM on November 28, 2007

Christ, what an asshole.

Tasing is supposed to be a less than lethal alternative to deadly force. If you're alright with him tasing the guy, I suppose you're alright with him shooting the guy in a less than lethal fashion, too?
posted by kableh at 9:34 AM on November 28, 2007 [13 favorites]

MetaFilter is cruising for a tazing by posting this.
posted by DU at 9:35 AM on November 28, 2007

You're not legally required to sign a citation. And a cop is not allowed to tase you for not obeying a lawful order, even if it were one.

People die from being tased. Unless you believe that instant, painful death is an appropriate punishment for refusing to sign a traffic citation.
posted by empath at 9:36 AM on November 28, 2007 [10 favorites]

I am as much against abuse of authority as the next guy, but I think the cop was within his rights to tase the guy.

These two clauses do not belong in the same sentence unless the next guy is Hitler.
posted by DU at 9:37 AM on November 28, 2007 [28 favorites]

NDc, why don't you watch the video with the sound on. The cop suggests "alright, why don't you get out of the car", after which the guy gets out of the car. Also, you are not as much against abuse of authority as the next guy.
posted by anthill at 9:37 AM on November 28, 2007 [3 favorites]

Jolts of painful electricity should be reserved for use on whiny, wanna-be Jedi Knights.

In other news, the UN has declared the use of tasers to be a form of torture.
posted by Brocktoon at 9:37 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

"...within his rights to tase the guy"

I always thought tasing was basically supposed to be like "I was gonna shoot you, but I'll tase you instead, and hopefully you'll live." Was this a situation where if the cop didn't have a taser he should have shot the guy?

Or, yeah, what Kableh said.
posted by dirtdirt at 9:37 AM on November 28, 2007

If this guy wanted to contest his ticket he could have gone to the courthouse to do so. What you can't do is get out of your car during a lawful traffic stop and start making demands on a police officer. I am as much against abuse of authority as the next guy, but I think the cop was within his rights to tase the guy.

The cop told him to get out of the car. Did you watch the video? That's a tasing.
posted by mecran01 at 9:38 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

Computers should have mandatory tase-capable keyboards, so I can tase YOU right now.
posted by Artw at 9:39 AM on November 28, 2007 [4 favorites]

I hope the cop gets what's coming to him. In court, I mean.

And yeah, ND¢, wtf?
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 9:40 AM on November 28, 2007

Don't taze me, bro!
posted by fandango_matt at 9:40 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'd have tased his ass too.

Hey, you're hilarious! Not really.
posted by billysumday at 9:41 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

It's very hard to hear what's going on and what's being said while the guy is still in the car, but yeah, it does appear that the cop told him to get out after he refused to sign the citation for the purpose of tazing him.
posted by yhbc at 9:41 AM on November 28, 2007

The amount of tasing in the news is further decreasing my respect for law enforcement.

Rather than its intended use as a (usually) nonlethal substitute for a bullet, the taser is continuously used as a tool for lazy police to immediately immobilize a "person of interest" who's asking too many questions.

It is not the job of law enforcement to dole out physical punishment when unnecessary, even if the coppers are frustrated.
posted by porn in the woods at 9:41 AM on November 28, 2007 [6 favorites]

I am pretty upset by the officer, but I have to confess that my wife and I both started laughing uncontrollably when he got tased. That was her first youtube taser video. Then when I saw the entire thing in context, and saw the cop lie at the end, I knew I had to alert metafilter immediately.
posted by mecran01 at 9:41 AM on November 28, 2007

Friday 23 November 2007

The UN Committee Against Torture (CAT), an agency charged with overseeing the application of the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, arrived at the conclusion on Friday, November 23, that the use of the electric pulse Taser gun constitutes a "form of torture" and "can even provoke death."

"Use of these weapons provokes extreme pain," that can go as far as "causing death, as reliable studies and recent facts occurring in practice have revealed," declared the Committee's ten members in a recommendation to Portugal, a country that purchased Taser X-26 guns for its police. "The consequences to the physical and mental state of the persons targeted are of a nature to violate" the provisions of the UN's Convention against Torture, the experts, who asked Lisbon to "consider renouncing use of the electric weapons," also note.
posted by mattbucher at 9:41 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

IMO, the distribution of 'non-lethal' weaponry to law enforcement is the last step to a police state. It enables the government to completely control the populace and suppress dissent without causing the moral revulsion that guns and tanks do.

If we accept this, and we accept the use of torture on suspected criminals, there is nothing preventing us from sliding into totalitarianism.

If you think not, then you just have to look at the recent policy changes allowing the president to declare states of emergency and deploy national guard units from one state to another without the governor's permission.

Imagine National Guard units from Illinois being deployed to New Orleans loaded up with pain rays, tasers and foam to put down legal demonstrations. No one would blink an eye. Because no one gives a shit about dirty hippies anyway, and where is the harm?
posted by empath at 9:42 AM on November 28, 2007 [12 favorites]

Taserporn is the hot new thing on the internets. I wonder how I can make some money off this.
posted by xmutex at 9:43 AM on November 28, 2007 [2 favorites]

The taser is already proving a valuable tool for the police. Oh, sure, it was initially intended as a last-ditch alternative to deadly force, but it seems to be working wonderfully as a "persuader." I think they should issued with a whole range of similar devices including, say, a lower voltage unit that causes intense but brief pain. Then the cop on the sidewalk could give people sidling by a little zap to make them step lively. MOOOOOOOOOO!

And if someone then gives the police hero a dirty look? Zap'em with the VomitBlaster™
posted by Turtles all the way down at 9:44 AM on November 28, 2007

(not a conspiracy theorist -- the totalitarianism doesn't require a conspiracy, it just requires a cowed populace and wealthy, powerful people acting in their own self-interests)
posted by empath at 9:45 AM on November 28, 2007

...when I saw the entire thing in context, and saw the cop lie at the end, I knew I had to alert metafilter immediately.

(Extinguishes pipe)
You know Johnny, you did the right thing here. It can be hard to know right from wrong in this crazy world. Sometimes you gotta go ask Metafilter. They'll know what to do. And if they don't, well, they'll be able to while away a few hours gettin' their knickers in a twist arguin' about police brutality and the like.

Anyway, me and the boys'll take it from here. You go get yourself a popsicle from the cool box, y'hear?
posted by Jofus at 9:46 AM on November 28, 2007 [39 favorites]

Oh man do I love cops.
posted by nola at 9:46 AM on November 28, 2007

What you can't do is get out of your car during a lawful traffic stop and start making demands on a police officer.

I know that a lot of police officers don't like having to explain the laws they're enforcing to civilians but if he had've spent a couple of minutes talking to him/telling him how he can protest it if he feels he's been wrong, this could've all been avoided.

Police officers shouldn't be the enemy but the way they're approaching people these days, they're becoming it.
posted by scabrous at 9:46 AM on November 28, 2007 [4 favorites]

Don't taze me, bro!

ROFL
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:46 AM on November 28, 2007

I watched it with the sound on last night, but I can't right now as I am at work. My interpretation was that the cop tried to get the guy to sign the ticket, the guy refused, and the cop was going to arrest him for refusing to sign the ticket, which is why he asked him to get out of the car. The guy then got out of the car and started demanding to be shown the sign (which you can see at the beginning of the video, not that it matters), the cop demands that he put his hands on the car and submit to arrest, the guy refuses, the cop pulls his taser, the guy still refuses to submit to arrest, the guy gets tased.

This is not some political prisoner here. The guy was arguing with and disobeying a cop making a lawful traffic stop. When a cop stops you, you do what he says unless it is clearly illegal or outrageous. If, after the stop is over, you have questions or objections, we have an entire legal system designed to redress such grievances. You don't "fight for your rights" on the side of the road where a cop doesn't know if you have a gun or a knife and has to protect his safety first. You fight for your rights in court. No one was denying this guy that right.
posted by ND¢ at 9:46 AM on November 28, 2007 [6 favorites]

I think if a cop were shouting at me to do something whilst pointing a taser, I'd probably do whatever he said, or at least try to behave in as non-threatening a way as possible.

The guy walked towards the cop whilst appearing angry, then moved away against instruction, looking very much as if he was about to pull something from his pocket (somewhere after 2:30). I don't blame the cop for being twitchy at that point - his logic in applying force was probably that it would be better to use the taser than to risk being shot or stabbed - overzealous almost certainly, but not entirely gratuitous.

However, the cop was stupid to get himself into that position - he clearly let his irritation escalate the situation from what should have been a conversation into an angry confrontation.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 9:46 AM on November 28, 2007

If you've never been to Vernal, here's some context: The guy was speeding because Vernal's a fucking wasteland and the faster you get through it the better - and the cop was angry because he works in Vernal, a FUCKING WASTELAND.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:48 AM on November 28, 2007 [3 favorites]

Here's the story behind why the tasee, Jared Massey, decided to post the video on YouTube.

I also found information for lodging a complaint, pulled from this page:

If you feel the Trooper8217;s use of "semi-lethal force" with his Taser Gun was not warranted, please write to the address below:
Department of Public Safety
Utah Highway Patrol Headquarters/Administrative Offices
Calvin Rampton Building
First Floor - South
4501 South 2700 West

Salt Lake City, Utah 84114
or fax: [phone]
or via online form (least effective): http://highwaypatrol.utah.gov/contact_uhp.html
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:49 AM on November 28, 2007 [2 favorites]

What lazaruslong said. I also flagged ND¢'s post as abusive.

The police aren't given Tasers so that they can use pain to enforce compliance, to make them "obey". Tasers and other semi-lethal weapons are by law only to be used to defend the lives of citizens and police officers (though rules do vary locally, this part is as far as I know a universal truth).

Looking at that video, it's absolutely and completely clear that the young man getting Tasered offered not the slightest threat to the officer.

What really astonishes me is that the officer is still on duty. What's sad is if this were a video of the same officer getting a free meal from a local restaurant, he'd be reprimanded that same day.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 9:49 AM on November 28, 2007 [6 favorites]

Or to put it another way, if the cop had shot the guy in the chest, would you say that was okay, too?
posted by empath at 9:50 AM on November 28, 2007

What lazaruslong said. I also flagged ND¢'s post as abusive.

You flagged a post you disagreed with as abusive?
posted by xmutex at 9:52 AM on November 28, 2007 [7 favorites]

You're remembering it differently from what appears on the video, ND¢. There was almost no discussion or talking after the guy got of the car and he was tazed.
posted by yhbc at 9:52 AM on November 28, 2007

Man, if we're going to allow Digg-style content on here we should have a Digg-style rating system to digg down the stupidity.
posted by chips ahoy at 9:52 AM on November 28, 2007 [2 favorites]

Mr. C. Davis,

As a proud resident of Utah, could you please refer to Vernal by its proper name?

Dinoland!
posted by mecran01 at 9:53 AM on November 28, 2007

it's awesome how so many of these so-called tough guys, the cops, are in fact so cowardly and full of shit that they cannot actually wrestle some guy to the ground and cuff him -- they'd much rather tase thr guy, just because they won't leave the donuts down and going to the gym is too hard on their TV-watching schedule.

there was no danger to the cop's safety -- he just got a kick out of tasing this guy. he'd have tased the guy's wife, too, to show what a tough, tough, fearless cop he really is.

this is shit police work, and if you're too clueless -- or dumb -- to figure that out somebody you should take your voting rights away until you figure out the basic difference between legitimate police work and fascism.

bullies with a badge are the worst kind of bullies, really. no, wait, cowardly bullies with a badge are the worst. their supporters are not much better.

there is something very wrong when you have to be more afraid of the police than of the criminals.
posted by matteo at 9:54 AM on November 28, 2007 [4 favorites]

The Tasee released the video two months after the incident when then internal investigation accidentally stalled.
posted by mecran01 at 9:54 AM on November 28, 2007

This sort of things seems to happen an awful lot with Utah cops.
posted by gottabefunky at 9:54 AM on November 28, 2007

While arguing my side of a difference of opinion I've been told to fuck off, called an asshole and a sick sadistic fuck, and you have flagged me as abusive? Having a different opinion from you is not abusive.

And empath, the tasering was not a punishment. The ticket is a punishment. The taser is a tool that cops use when they feel force is necessary but don't want to use lethal force. The cop obviously believed that this was one of those times, and I am saying that I can see why he might think that based on the guy's actions.
posted by ND¢ at 9:55 AM on November 28, 2007

The guy, Jared Massey, was pretty clearly under the impression that he and the officer were going to look at the location of the sign. He's casual about it all until the taser (which, he claims in the CNN interview, he thought was a REAL GUN) comes out, at which point he just looks scared and confused.

Probably not the smartest thing to move away at that moment, but I'm not sure I wouldn't have done the same thing--the officer was coming off like a real loose cannon.

Also, check out the UHP spokesman on the CNN video. He doesn't believe that the availability of tasers has made officers any more trigger-happy. The follow-up question should have been whether the officer would have just shot Massey, but alas, no hard-hitting from the interviewer.
posted by dontoine at 9:56 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

Taser position their devices not as alternatives to deadly force, but as alternatives to non-deadly force.

Cops are encouraged to think of the Taser as an alternative to fighting with a 'suspect' or using baton or pepper spray.

This cop's still on duty? FFS. He should be in jail.
posted by unSane at 9:57 AM on November 28, 2007 [2 favorites]

posted by empath You're not legally required to sign a citation. And a cop is not allowed to tase you for not obeying a lawful order, even if it were one. People die from being tased. Unless you believe that instant, painful death is an appropriate punishment for refusing to sign a traffic citation.

Yes, you are required to sign the citation. If you refuse to sign it, you'll be placed under arrest. Traffic citations usually say something like Without admitting guilt, I promise to appear at the time and place listed below--what you're doing is agreeing to appear in court. If you refuse to agree to appear in court, you will be taken into custody.

This guy refused to sign the citation, so he was told to get out of the car and put his hands behind his back. When he became belligerent and refused to obey the officer, he escalated the situation, and out came the Taser. Case closed.
posted by fandango_matt at 9:57 AM on November 28, 2007 [3 favorites]

Having a different opinion from you is not abusive.

Stop disagreeing with me! It hurts SO MUCH!
posted by brain_drain at 9:57 AM on November 28, 2007

ND¢, serious question, and I'm not trying to contribute to a pile-on here.

How would you feel about the situation if, instead of tasing the guy, the officer:
-shot the man in the kneecap(s) with his handgun?
-beat the man to the ground with a billyclub?
-simply aimed his gun or taser at the man in order to get him to put his hands on the car (which th, handcuffed him, and arrested him without causing physical harm to the man?
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 10:01 AM on November 28, 2007

By the way, the US seems to be 'in danger of becoming' a police state in the same sense that Paris Hilton is 'in danger of becoming' famous.
posted by unSane at 10:01 AM on November 28, 2007 [11 favorites]

I don't know what to say ND¢, I see your point but I've had so many bad experiences with police it's hard for me to agree in a broad sense. They are in fact very quick anymore to use force. It scares the shit out of me. The last time I got stopped it was for a seat belt violation not a block away from my house. My pregnant girlfriend and I were on our way back for a late lunch and I got pulled over. Once he looked at my licence he had me step out of the car in front of my neighbours began asking if I had any pills, marijuana,crack, meth, pipes, syringes, scales,guns, knives, papers, . . . after that he frisked me, he then interrogated my girlfriend, asking her the same line of questions. He wanted to search the car, bring out a drug dog. I'd been polite, and cooperative, and after 30 minutes of standing on my own street getting dressed down for not wearing a seatbelt, yeah I was remembering why I don't like cops.
posted by nola at 10:02 AM on November 28, 2007 [5 favorites]

I think that the cop resorted to the taser a bit too quickly. But, by the same token, the guy was acting pretty erratically. To be fair, cops never know what someone may do. Acting erratically just increases the potential for trouble.
posted by janetplanet at 10:03 AM on November 28, 2007

I love it when people say 'Case Closed', as if that proves they're right.
posted by unSane at 10:03 AM on November 28, 2007 [9 favorites]

I don't get the post-hoc rationalisations of this cop's actions. He clearly says "he wouldn't obey so he took a ride on the taser."

This kind of attitude is becoming endemic in any uniformed agency in the US. Speaking as a frequent visitor to the US, I feel that compared to other Western countries, it has the most aggressive and confrontational cops/TSA/immigration etc officials, by quite some margin.
posted by Jakey at 10:03 AM on November 28, 2007 [3 favorites]

"Yes, you are required to sign the citation. If you refuse to sign it, you'll be placed under arrest."

Not true. You may be placed under arrest. The officer also has the option to mark the ticket as "refused to sign" and give you your copy of the ticket anyway, at his discretion.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 10:04 AM on November 28, 2007 [4 favorites]

janetplanet, maybe cops should just Taser everyone, just in case.
posted by unSane at 10:05 AM on November 28, 2007

scabrous, yeah. I always understood that signing a ticket was "sign this and you're not admitting any guilt; you're just promising to appear in court if you don't want to pay the fine instead -- you can tell judge your side and let him/her straighten this out."

But I think a cop can flat-out take you into custody if you don't sign. Prolly depends on the laws in the jurisdiction. Any MeFier cops or lawyers care to comment?

I can't watch this at work, but people have mentioned that there's some muffled conversation. I wonder if some variation on the above got discussed first.

I don't get the "wanna step out of the car?" "Sure!" *ZAP* business, though. That cop might have ordered him out of the car, made him assume the position, and arrested him -- or given him a last chance to sign the damn ticket and be on his way. Tasing him sounds like a lazy cop's shortcut to badge-heaviness instead. The officers and deputies (and MAs and SPs) I used to know brooked very little bull$hit from anybody, but they were a little more circumspect and professional about how they dealt with troublemakers than some of the horror stories I hear around here.

on preview: janetplanet, yeah again. Civilians tend to overlook how paranoid cops tend to be -- partly for survival reasons, frankly.
posted by pax digita at 10:06 AM on November 28, 2007

America is the lamest police state ever.
posted by chunking express at 10:06 AM on November 28, 2007 [2 favorites]

The guy then got out of the car and started demanding to be shown the sign (which you can see at the beginning of the video, not that it matters), the cop demands that he put his hands on the car and submit to arrest, the guy refuses, the cop pulls his taser, the guy still refuses to submit to arrest, the guy gets tased.

Here's the thing, though: the guy's only "refusing to submit to arrest" if he understands that he's about to get arrested. The cop escalates that shit so fast, that the guy arguably has no idea what is going on. The cop says "Turn around and put your hands behind your back" at 2:28, and then literally 10 seconds later, he's tased. How long should an officer wait to use his taser after giving a lawful order ? I don't know where that line should be drawn, but it should be more than 10 seconds.
posted by 23skidoo at 10:06 AM on November 28, 2007 [4 favorites]

The tazee's account is pretty reasonable. Copper needs a time-out.
posted by docpops at 10:06 AM on November 28, 2007

Huh, I've never heard of such a thing. But sign-the-ticket-or-be arrested is the case here in California. Or at least it was.
posted by fandango_matt at 10:07 AM on November 28, 2007

I'm not real big on gun control, but I've noticed that most police brutality issues stem from an innate fear that at any point, a suspect can just produce a concealed firearm and kill a cop. It's gotta be stressfull to spend every interaction with the citizenry under the assumption that they are trying to kill you.

janetplanet: Just because cops "never know what someone may do" doesn't mean they don't have a realistic sense of what is likely to happen, and how effective their own UNARMED combat skills are in comparison.

And besides, whatever happened to just knocking a guys teeth out with a night stick?
posted by butterstick at 10:08 AM on November 28, 2007

Worst taze video ever. So far. Tazed Bro had a golden opportunity but couldn't even nail one sound bite. Like I'm really gonna buy a "Mam, get back in the car and close the door!" or "You didn't follow my instructions!" t-shirt.
posted by hellbient at 10:11 AM on November 28, 2007 [2 favorites]

That's a good point. However, your comment and your later explanation make you look like a sick, sadistic fuck, so fuck off, asshole.

Hey folks: Could we try being, I don't know, somewhat civil? The responses to ND¢ are just downright ugly, and I've flagged the one I quoted above. You all sound extremely immature, and this is coming from a 19-year-old. I know, I know, "it's MetaFilter," but the MeFi I know isn't this egregiously rude.

Please, if only for the novelty, class it up a bit.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 10:11 AM on November 28, 2007 [13 favorites]

And that cop didn't even say "vehicle". Not once.
posted by hellbient at 10:13 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'm just glad the cop cuffed and left him in a fucking car lane. Talk about thinking outside of the box.
posted by phaedon at 10:13 AM on November 28, 2007 [3 favorites]

Even worse, when you watch the video, the guy is very close to the road, he could have fallen into it, and then been run over.

The side of the road is a very dangerous place, and police often tell people to stand on the passenger side of their case for just that reason.

For example.
posted by delmoi at 10:13 AM on November 28, 2007 [2 favorites]

In the event that a motorist refuses to sign a trooper has two options, Roden said. One is to write "refuses to sign" on the citation, which is then given to the driver. The second is to arrest the driver.
posted by empath at 10:14 AM on November 28, 2007

[a few comments removed, "pregnant bitch" jokes and "you're a sick fuck" comments need to either go to MetaTalk or back to the schoolyard, ffs]
posted by jessamyn at 10:15 AM on November 28, 2007

Compare with this traffic stop. Ticketee goes absolutely apeshit, grabs the cop's ticket book, curses, swears.... watch how the cop handles it.
posted by anthill at 10:15 AM on November 28, 2007 [11 favorites]

_{(er, passenger side of their car)}
posted by delmoi at 10:15 AM on November 28, 2007

But sign-the-ticket-or-be arrested is the case here in California. Or at least it was.

Stan the Radar Man sez "Yes". To the first thing.

Utah Highway Patrol rep Cameron Roden sez "If you sign a citation, it's not admitting guilt by any means. It just says you'll promise to appear in court. If someone refuses to sign the citation, they're refusing to appear in court," and that another option if a driver refuses to sign a ticket is for the officer to "put it in the car in a professional manner and leave it at that."
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:17 AM on November 28, 2007

There was absolutely NO reason to arrest the driver, other than to prove what a big man he was.
posted by empath at 10:17 AM on November 28, 2007

Also, check out the UHP spokesman on the CNN video...

The CNN interview which dontoine mentions above and a CBS Early Show interview (both of which are referenced in the "more" section of the original YouTube video.)
posted by ericb at 10:17 AM on November 28, 2007

fandango_matt, here are the relevant sections of Utah code, which as I read them only require the officer's signature on the citation, and not the signature of the person receiving the citation:

77-7-18. Citation on misdemeanor or infraction charge.

A peace officer, in lieu of taking a person into custody, any public official of any county or municipality charged with the enforcement of the law, a port-of-entry agent as defined in Section 72-1-102, and a volunteer authorized to issue a citation under Section 41-6a-213 may issue and deliver a citation requiring any person subject to arrest or prosecution on a misdemeanor or infraction charge to appear at the court of the magistrate before whom the person should be taken pursuant to law if the person had been arrested.

77-7-19. Appearance required by citation -- Arrest for failure to appear -- Transfer of cases -- Motor vehicle violations -- Disposition of fines and costs.

(1) Persons receiving misdemeanor citations shall appear before the magistrate designated in the citation on or before the time and date specified in the citation unless the uniform bail schedule adopted by the Judicial Council or Subsection 77-7-21(1) permits forfeiture of bail for the offense charged.
(2) A citation may not require a person to appear sooner than five days or later than 14 days following its issuance.
(3) A person who receives a citation and who fails to comply with Section 77-7-21 on or before the time and date and at the court specified is subject to arrest. The magistrate may issue a warrant of arrest.
(4) Except where otherwise provided by law, a citation or information issued for violations of Title 41, Motor Vehicles, shall state that the person receiving the citation or information shall appear before the magistrate who has jurisdiction over the offense charged.
(5) Any justice court judge may, upon the motion of either the defense attorney or prosecuting attorney, based on a lack of territorial jurisdiction or the disqualification of the judge, transfer cases to a justice court with territorial jurisdiction or the district court within the county.
(6) (a) Clerks and other administrative personnel serving the courts shall ensure that all citations for violation of Title 41, Motor Vehicles, are filed in a court with jurisdiction and venue and shall refuse to receive citations that should be filed in another court.
(b) Fines, fees, costs, and forfeitures imposed or collected for violations of Title 41, Motor Vehicles, which are filed contrary to this section shall be paid to the entitled municipality or county by the state, county, or municipal treasurer who has received the fines, fees, costs, or forfeitures from the court which collected them.
(c) The accounting and remitting of sums due shall be at the close of the fiscal year of the municipality or county which has received fines, fees, costs, or forfeitures as a result of any improperly filed citations.


77-7-20. Service of citation on defendant -- Filing in court -- Contents of citations.

(1) If a citation is issued pursuant to Section 77-7-18, the peace officer or public official shall issue one copy to the person cited and shall within five days file a duplicate copy with the court specified in the citation.
(2) Each copy of the citation issued under authority of this chapter shall contain:
(a) the name of the court before which the person is to appear;
(b) the name of the person cited;
(c) a brief description of the offense charged;
(d) the date, time and place at which the offense is alleged to have occurred;
(e) the date on which the citation was issued;
(f) the name of the peace officer or public official who issued the citation, and the name of the arresting person if an arrest was made by a private party and the citation was issued in lieu of taking the arrested person before a magistrate;
(g) the time and date on or before and after which the person is to appear;
(h) the address of the court in which the person is to appear;
(i) a certification above the signature of the officer issuing the citation in substantially the following language: "I certify that a copy of this citation or information (Summons and Complaint) was duly served upon the defendant according to law on the above date and I know or believe and so allege that the above-named defendant did commit the offense herein set forth contrary to law. I further certify that the court to which the defendant has been directed to appear is the proper court pursuant to Section 77-7-21."; and
(j) a notice containing substantially the following language:
READ CAREFULLY

This citation is not an information and will not be used as an information without your consent. If an information is filed you will be provided a copy by the court. You MUST appear in court on or before the time set in this citation. IF YOU FAIL TO APPEAR AN INFORMATION WILL BE FILED AND THE COURT MAY ISSUE A WARRANT FOR YOUR ARREST.

77-7-21. Proceeding on citation -- Voluntary forfeiture of bail -- Parent signature required -- Information, when required.

(1) (a) A copy of the citation issued under Section 77-7-18 that is filed with the magistrate may be used in lieu of an information to which the person cited may plead guilty or no contest and be sentenced or on which bail may be forfeited.
(b) With the magistrate's approval, a person may voluntarily forfeit bail without appearance being required in any case of a class B misdemeanor or less.
(c) Voluntary forfeiture of bail shall be entered as a conviction and treated the same as if the accused pleaded guilty.
(d) If the person cited is under 18 years of age, and if any of the charges allege a violation of Title 41, the court shall promptly mail a copy of the citation or a notice of the citation to the address as shown on the citation, to the attention of the parent or guardian of the defendant.
(2) An information shall be filed and proceedings held in accordance with the Rules of Criminal Procedure and all other applicable provisions of this code if the person cited:
(a) willfully fails to appear before a magistrate pursuant to a citation issued under Section 77-7-18;
(b) pleads not guilty to the offense charged; or
(c) does not deposit bail on or before the date set for the person's appearance.
(3) (a) The information is an original pleading.
(b) If a person cited waives by written agreement the filing of the information, the prosecution may proceed on the citation.


77-7-22. Failure to appear as misdemeanor.

Any person who willfully fails to appear before a court pursuant to a citation issued under the provisions of Section 77-7-18 is guilty of a class B misdemeanor, regardless of the disposition of the charge upon which he was originally cited.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 10:19 AM on November 28, 2007 [2 favorites]

It's very hard to hear what's going on and what's being said while the guy is still in the car, but yeah, it does appear that the cop told him to get out after he refused to sign the citation for the purpose of tazing him.

The CBS interview has captions of the dialogue.
posted by ericb at 10:21 AM on November 28, 2007

Fuck you, I refuse to read that entire thing.

*shrieks as mr_crash_davis pulls out Taser*
posted by fandango_matt at 10:23 AM on November 28, 2007 [5 favorites]

I'd be more likely to pull out a tater.

From where, I ain't tellin'.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 10:25 AM on November 28, 2007 [5 favorites]

"...we have an entire legal system designed to redress such grievances..."

ND¢, we used to have a legal system designed to prevent such grievances. You like it better this way?
posted by newmoistness at 10:26 AM on November 28, 2007 [2 favorites]

The guy follows the cop way too closely after getting out of car, and his right hand appears to be trying to get at something in his cargo pocket, even after the cop draws his taser and tells him to turn around. Rather than find out what the guy has in his pocket, the cop tasers him. Then while the cop is cuffing him, the wife gets out of the car and the guy comes up behind the cop again!

Yeah, this cop is a dick. But he's out there alone, stopping cars with no idea who's in them, and he has to decide based on the driver's behavior what level of danger he himself is in and what level of perceived risk he's going to accept.

I was discussing this video last weekend with three of my friends who happen to be an NYPD sergeant, a former CT state trooper, and a former MA trooper. The point they made is that the taser is classified in their training as less lethal than mace or the nightstick, and that lowers the danger a cop has to be in before it's drawn or used.

This cop saw a guy who was uncooperative and belligerent, and erred on the side of controlling the situation before the passenger got out and he had to deal with two people at once. He knew afterward that it hadn't been necessary this time, but he didn't know that then.
posted by nicwolff at 10:26 AM on November 28, 2007 [3 favorites]

I know that a lot of police officers don't like having to explain the laws they're enforcing to civilians but if he had've spent a couple of minutes talking to him/telling him how he can protest it if he feels he's been wrong, this could've all been avoided.

No kidding.

This is not some political prisoner here. The guy was arguing with and disobeying a cop making a lawful traffic stop. When a cop stops you, you do what he says unless it is clearly illegal or outrageous. If, after the stop is over, you have questions or objections, we have an entire legal system designed to redress such grievances. You don't "fight for your rights" on the side of the road where a cop doesn't know if you have a gun or a knife and has to protect his safety first. You fight for your rights in court. No one was denying this guy that right.

You need to learn the difference between "can" and "should be able to." Just because a law is written in a way that a cop can get away with a hell of a lot doesn't mean those laws are good or worthwhile.

The guy went from getting a speeding ticket to being arrested to being tased in something like 5 to 10 seconds. And you expect someone who isn't involved in police confrontation on a daily basis to understand what's going on or whatever in that amount of time. It's ridiculous.

What you people (ND¢ and anyone agrees with him) is that police should be able to tase anyone who doesn't "perform" the way the police expect them to "perform" regardless of whether the person understands what's going on or not. There was an instance of police tasing a person who was in a diabetic coma a while ago, and another in canada where police tased someone with a mental condition that makes it hard for them to understand spoken words.

A couple years ago there was a famous video of the LAPD beating the crap out of a retarded kid, today, that kid would have probably been tased.

It's utterly absurd.
posted by delmoi at 10:27 AM on November 28, 2007 [8 favorites]

I'm not a fan of tasers, but I suspect this will hold up in court. The driver was oppositional and argumentative from the moment the officer walked up to the car (ironically, it sounded to me like, if the guy had used a little common sense and acknowledged he had been speeding, the officer might have let him off with a warning).

His attitude and demeanor once he was asked to get out of the car was threatening in nature (in my opinion). When he refused to follow the directions of the officer, the officer had the choice of engaging him physically, or using the taser.

Keep in mind that:

1. The officer was alone
2. There was another person in the car
3. He had no idea if there were weapons in the car, or on the driver.

There seems to be a lot of antagonism against LEOs here today, it feels a bit like it's based as much on commenters past history with law enforcement as it is about this incident.
posted by HuronBob at 10:28 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

I have kept my mouth shut on this taser business. I just graduated from the University of Florida and still live in Gainesville. In the last few months, I've gotten more than my share of taser news. I've pretty much tuned out all the taser posts on Digg and Reddit. I'm less discriminating in my MetaFilter reading, so I finally clicked on one of these posts.

The whole Andrew Meyer incident was pretty ambiguous. There were a lot of factors that made that situation a tough call.

That being said, fuck that cop. Seriously. Xmutex may have been right to poke fun at the earlier post, but fuck that cop. He should be stripped of a badge and forced to undertake some serious counseling.

I respect the positions that police officers are sometimes put into. Things can get heated and it can be intimidating if you're outnumbered, or if people become aggressive. There are a lot of things that could go wrong. I'm sick of the whole "Fuck the Police, free Mumia" shtick. I'd much rather have our police force than the Stasi or NVKD or whoever. Even so, watching that clip made my physically angry to the point where I imagined myself running that cop down on the highway.

This was obviously not one of those above mentioned tough situations. That cop was way out of line. Here's what really happened: some pathetic bully flipped out because he felt he wasn't being respected. He tasered that poor person because they had the audacity to turn there back on him. They were obviously not going to attack him or try to escape. He failed to communicate the severity of the situation from his perspective; and he completely lost his shit. That particular officer should never be allowed to deal with people again. I wouldn't trust him to take orders at a McDonald's.

The argument that tasers replace deadly force has proven itself pretty specious at this point. Either police are not receiving the proper training or the police force is disproportionately made up of sadists.

When the officer's victim was trying to get the cop to calm down, the officer just kept on getting more agitated. He repeatedly refused to read him his rights. That's infuriating. Anyone who defends the police officer in this situation should be ashamed of themselves.
posted by Telf at 10:29 AM on November 28, 2007 [13 favorites]

On review: I just realized how bad things are when I see myself typing, "I'd much rather have our police force than the Stasi or NVKD or whoever."
posted by Telf at 10:30 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

But I think a cop can flat-out take you into custody if you don't sign. Prolly depends on the laws in the jurisdiction.


Police spokesperson Sgt. Jeff Nigbur talks about the laws and procedure at the end of the CBS interview (starts at 5:02).
posted by ericb at 10:31 AM on November 28, 2007

Yeah, this cop is a dick. But he's out there alone, stopping cars with no idea who's in them, and he has to decide based on the driver's behavior what level of danger he himself is in and what level of perceived risk he's going to accept.

How much effort would it have taken for the cop to have explained what was going to happen if he didn't sign the ticket? Why not call for backup if the guy didn't sign it?

Instaid, the cop ratcheted up the situation himself instantly, and put himself into a situation that he needed to 'control'.
posted by delmoi at 10:31 AM on November 28, 2007 [3 favorites]

I just watched it and it's a pretty fucked up situation all around, but I see why the cop actually tasered the guy. The cop couldn't control the guy since the guy was ignoring everything the cop was saying, he was walking back to his car when the cop told him to freeze, and he was fishing around in his right pocket at the same time.

I've had dozens of run-ins with bad cops (mostly on the bad end of getting busted for skateboarding and bike riding where I shouldn't have) but the one thing I never did ignore their basic instructions or try and walk away. When you start ignoring a cop, they have to do something and in this case the cop tasered the guy, but he certainly could have simply forced the guy to keep his hands on the hood of his police car.
posted by mathowie at 10:33 AM on November 28, 2007

Great. Time to fire up OutRageFilter once again. This has already been covered to death on Fark, Digg, Reddit, and youtube. I'm surprised that it took this long to get here.

This guy managed to get right up and seemed just fine, though. Maybe "Don't tase me bro" guy could take a few lessons.
posted by drstein at 10:33 AM on November 28, 2007

I guess I could appreciate these threads more if they didn't move so quickly from "here we have a cop displaying extremely questionable, possibly fireable judgement" to "COPS ARE EVIL! AMERICA IS A POLICE STATE! SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!"

Just for the record, in a police state:

a) that video never existed in the first place. The police do not document their own behaviour when they answer only to themselves.

b) If that video did exist, it certainly wouldn't have been handed over.

and

c) All of you people who watched that illegal video, and who were idiotic enough to mention that you had seen it in a public forum would be looking over your shoulder a lot just now.

--------------------

Also, I *really* wish that everyone here who is so black and white about "appropriate" force could spend a few days approaching cars full of pissed off people who most likely hated you before you even turned on the siren. I think this particular cop used poor discretion, but I am nowhere near as certain of that as a lot of you folks seem to be.
posted by tkolar at 10:35 AM on November 28, 2007 [9 favorites]

Whoops, turn their back on him. I apologize for the string post.
posted by Telf at 10:36 AM on November 28, 2007

the tasering was not a punishment

Sure it was. From the link Brandon Blatcher posted:

"Do you want another hit with this," the trooper asks.

"No. I want you to read me my rights," Massey replies.

"I want you to follow my instructions and do as you're told," Gardner says.

How is that not a punishment for not following instructions?
posted by scottreynen at 10:37 AM on November 28, 2007 [2 favorites]

Rome. It's burning.
posted by Pecinpah at 10:37 AM on November 28, 2007

Here's the problem, the cop sucked and let the situation get out of hand. Why did he tell the guy to get out of the car and then TURN AROUND & WALK AWAY? What was that? The cop let the guy feel like they were going to have a little chat about the sign.

He needed to control the situation immediately after ordering the guy out of the car; he should have screamed at him until he put his hands on the car. That way the guy would know what was up.

It didn’t look right to me that the guy was walking behind the cop like that, but that’s becaue the cop was a dope.
posted by Wood at 10:39 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

And actually the guy got tased twice. Once to nock him down, and a second time to roll over, but he couldn't roll over because he was still paralyzed from the first hit.

So that's another example of being tased for not "following an order", even when someone isn't capable of following an order. That's the same kind of thing that happened to Tabatabainejad in the UCLA tasing incident. The cops tell him to "get up or I'll tase you again", and yet, he can't get up. So they tase him again.

Seriously fucked up.
posted by delmoi at 10:39 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

newmoistness wrote...
we used to have a legal system designed to prevent such grievances.

Really? When was that exactly?

Video tapes on traffic stops is one of the greatest blows for civil liberties in years. 'Cuz believe me, when it was the cop's word against yours, the system did not bias in favor of believing you...
posted by tkolar at 10:41 AM on November 28, 2007

a) that video never existed in the first place. The police do not document their own behaviour when they answer only to themselves.

If the police can show videos like this and still keep their job and not suffer any repercussions, why would they bother to keep it secret? Just go on TV and explain all the "Cues" the guy was sending off and why need a good strong tasing.
posted by delmoi at 10:42 AM on November 28, 2007

he escalated the situation, and out came the Taser. Case closed.

No, NOT case closed. As a police officer, you don't get to use a weapon just because someone refuses to do what you say!

Assuming that the law allows the officer to arrest the man for not signing the ticket, there's a strict protocol to be followed.

While not strictly required, as a professional the officer has every business to warn the citizen: "If you do not sign this ticket, you'll be arrested," particularly in this case where the citizen in question was completely unthreatening in any way.

If the citizen continued to refuse to sign the ticket, the next stage that the officer must legally execute is to announce that the citizen is under arrest and attempt to arrest him.

Even then, the officer is not allowed to use his weapon unless the citizen resists arrest.

So as a cop someone "escalating" a situation does not give you the right to use force on them.

And why I flagged that original post? I'm sick, sick, sick to death of you psychopaths. You seem to rule everything now, you have an unending thirst for blood and pain and death. You're everywhere now: "I love America because America loves war."

That any human could watch some poor kid get illegally Tasered in front of his pregnant wife because he refused to sign a piece of paper and then jeer at him! I'm 45 years old and I still get shocked that people are willing to openly express such sentiments.

So I flagged it because I didn't want that piece of shit sitting at the top of the thread for time to come.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 10:44 AM on November 28, 2007 [17 favorites]

This link makes me too angry to even finish watching it. All I can think about are the seemingly endless retorts I'd have for that motherfucker if I were in that guy's position.

Yes, I know that makes it worse.

And yes, I wouldn't give a fuck.
posted by nonmerci at 10:45 AM on November 28, 2007

We are fucked. I now have a serious expectation of being tased in my lifetime just for being in the wrong place, or mis-hearing something said, or maybe just for the hell of it. Something to look forward to!
posted by everichon at 10:47 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

And apparently the cop wasn't required to arrest him, but had that choice. The cop could have either issued another ticket (which wouldn't need to be signed) or he could have written refused to sign on the ticket and left it at that. It wouldn't have made the ticket unenforceable.
posted by delmoi at 10:47 AM on November 28, 2007

ND¢, serious question, and I'm not trying to contribute to a pile-on here.

How would you feel about the situation if, instead of tasing the guy, the officer:
-shot the man in the kneecap(s) with his handgun?
-beat the man to the ground with a billyclub?
-simply aimed his gun or taser at the man in order to get him to put his hands on the car (which th, handcuffed him, and arrested him without causing physical harm to the man?
Although I don't think the tasing was necessary, I also don't think it was totally inappropriate either. At this point I suppose the courts will decide.

But instead of tasing... my wife witnessed a cop writing a PARKING ticket near a community college campus. When the girl that owned the car got there and got abusive then tore up the ticket. The cop cuffed her and arrested her. The crowd applauded.

Life was so much simpler in the pre-taser days.
posted by Doohickie at 10:50 AM on November 28, 2007

I apologize for the derail, and I find NDc's comments repugnant and the "fuck off" responses nearly as repugnant, but can we please stop with the sanctimonious "this is why I'm flagging you" comments? Just flag and move on. What does it contribute to the discussion?
posted by damnthesehumanhands at 10:54 AM on November 28, 2007 [4 favorites]

What upsets me the most about this is that there is clearly another officer there who didn't seem to think that this was excessive force, and just stood there in the background doing nothing while the poor guy's pregnant wife is screaming hysterically with a child in the car.

With two officers, I don't see why ANYONE would feel threatened enough to use a taser. Unless the guy suddenly pulled out a gun and was running at the officer, or something similar.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 10:57 AM on November 28, 2007

When he refused to follow the directions of the officer, the officer had the choice of engaging him physically, or using the taser.

Or just handing him the ticket and letting him drive off. It was only a speeding ticket, and not even a ticket for big-time dangerous speeding, just a speed-trap ticket for a zero-danger driving infraction (he went over 40 on a wide empty highway).

If a very large truck had come by at about 100 mph just then and made the cop into a thin blue paste, so that the Taser wires were just left flapping in the breeze, I would definitely have said something like "holy fucking shit!" and then, I don't know, it's hard to say, but I might have laughed. That video needs a better ending. Are the writers still on strike in the US?
posted by pracowity at 10:58 AM on November 28, 2007

Now, look at anthill's excellent link. This is what a professional police officer should be doing! (I loved that officer, by the way. "If you don't pick up that up, I'm going to give you a ticket for littering." I died laughing!)

This officer remembers that work works for us. We're his employees and his responsibility is to us first -- even when we are being personally rude and obnoxious.

Police officers are only allowed to use violence in certain specifically controlled circumstances; where someone's is in danger or during the arrest process. A police state is nothing more or less than a state where the police are allowed to arbitrarily enforce their requests with violence.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 11:01 AM on November 28, 2007 [4 favorites]

I'm at work and I can't watch the video, but I'm glad ND¢ got all the attention he was after by leaping in to troll on the first comment.

He's too experienced a mefite to not have anticipated this reaction, and certainly would have clarified or elaborated on his opinion from the start if he'd really cared for any other outcome.
posted by hermitosis at 11:02 AM on November 28, 2007

Unicorn, huh? I didn't see another cop, but I also didn't watch more than 3 minutes of it.
posted by butterstick at 11:05 AM on November 28, 2007

ND¢: What you can't do is get out of your car during a lawful traffic stop and start making demands on a police officer.

mecran01: The cop told him to get out of the car. Did you watch the video? That's a tasing.

Actually, ND¢ didn't watch the video, we have forensic evidence of that. I'll note ND¢ posted the first reply in this thread, "I'd have tased his ass too." at 9:28, while the original post was at 9:21. The video is 9:58 long, so there is no way unless ND¢ has a "Youtube video accelerator" that he could have watched the entire video in the time it took him to start posting inane drivel.

ND¢, violating the laws of space and time? That's a tasin'...
posted by hincandenza at 11:06 AM on November 28, 2007 [17 favorites]

a) that video never existed in the first place. The police do not document their own behaviour when they answer only to themselves.

If the police can show videos like this and still keep their job and not suffer any repercussions, why would they bother to keep it secret? Just go on TV and explain all the "Cues" the guy was sending off and why need a good strong tasing.

Sorry, delmoi, that mealy-mouthed liberal mumbo-jumbo doesn't fly in the "police state" debate. There is only one kind of police state, only one mold: the East German Stasi version.

The continuum maps out thusly:

FREE MCHAPPY LAND<>STASI-ERA EAST GERMANY

For a time, there were rumours of a hyphen-length middle ground in between, consisting primarily of Soviet Canuckistan, which despite its socialized medicine did manage to send troops to Afghanistan and thus far dodge its Kyoto commitments. But as our border authorities have of late taken to electroshocking to death bewildered Polish-speaking stapler-wielding new arrivals at the airport, the middle ground appears to be gone. (On the other hand, that incident is being investigated by seven separate inquiries, so hope springs eternal.)
posted by gompa at 11:07 AM on November 28, 2007 [4 favorites]

As usual both parties have fault in this matter. I think we need a national symposium on how law enforcement and civilians should act during a traffic stop. As many police abuse videos I've seen on Youtube I've seen just as many friendly lax officers get shot by seemingly timid drivers. The officer should have called for backup once the kid wouldn't sign - if he felt this guy was a threat then what is to stop his wife from shooting him when he struggled to arrest him?

The guy was talking way too much and was way too antsy and nervous. In my experience that really freaks out the cops (especially NJ state troopers). Do I blame the cop for tasering the guy - absolutely, do I blame the guy for putting the cop in the position where he saw that as an option yes. Two morons don't make a right.
posted by any major dude at 11:08 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

It's a shame that the cop is capable of walking still, let alone on-duty. The amount of "Well, he had it coming" and "He should've known that's what happens when you mouth off" makes me nauseous. Anyone who apologises for pieces of shit like that cop is just as bad as the cop.

You want to know why the cops act that way? Because you fucking give them permission to.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:11 AM on November 28, 2007 [3 favorites]

posted by Unicorn on the cob What upsets me the most about this is that there is clearly another officer there who didn't seem to think that this was excessive force, and just stood there in the background doing nothing while the poor guy's pregnant wife is screaming hysterically with a child in the car.

The second officer pulled up in another unit after the suspect was in custody.
posted by fandango_matt at 11:15 AM on November 28, 2007

When a cop stops you, you do what he says unless it is clearly illegal or outrageous.

Yes, BUT: There's a fine line between cooperating and waving your rights. For example, "Pop your trunk, m'kay?" is really asking you to consent to a search, but it sounds like an order. If you "cooperate", you're exposing yourself to unnecessary risks.

And many citizens -- and police officers -- don't KNOW what is "clearly illegal or outrageous". What if you believe the cop's orders are "clearly illegal and outrageous" but the cop disagrees? Ultimately, it takes a courtroom to determine this. On the street, though, the cop has all the power and the citizen has none.

Really, though, I think cops thrive on this ambiguity. A cop can grab you without warning, and if you yank your arm away, as any reasonable person would, that's "resisting arrest", if not "assaulting a police officer". Nevermind that you had no warning whatsoever that you were, in fact, "under arrest". The *cop* knew he was "arresting" you; it doesn't matter that you didn't.

I would really, really like to see a Supreme Court judgement that says a police officer (unless he's being threatened) is required to say, "I'm placing you under arrest." before you are considered to be under arrest. I think this is a bigger deal than reading Miranda Rights, which the guy in the video kept demanding for some reason -- I don't think he knew, at that point, that he was under arrest. I think he thought a wack-job thug of a cop was torturing him because he challenged his ego. I think the guy showed great restraint and self-control. At what point do you defend yourself?

If nothing else, the video demonstrates terrible police work. All the cop had to say after the guy refused to sign was "Sir, if you do not sign this, I am required to place you under arrest." Clearly the guy didn't know this; he just thought the ticket was bullshit and wanted to argue it away on the spot, rather than deal with the hassle of court. Just having to defend yourself in court carries significant costs in time and money, especially if it's an out-of-state court, even if you're declared innocent.

Personally, I think the cop should be in jail for assault with deadly weapon, with my patented triple-penalty for commiting the crime under color of authority. There was absolutely no need for that other than to stroke his own ego.

Here's a fun scenario: Imagine if the pregnant wife was driving and *she* refused to sign, was ordered out of the car, and was tased IN THE BACK while the cop stood back and gloated. Now imagine you're the husband. What would you do?

I know what I'd do.
posted by LordSludge at 11:16 AM on November 28, 2007 [12 favorites]

I know this is about tasing, but I love that the guy was so upset that he was being given a speeding ticket. Who doesn't just say to himself, "Damn. I need to watch my speed or look out for cops more efficiently." Well, lots and lots of people, it would seem.

He is asking to see the speed limit sign. That is great. Apparently, he thinks that the cop is going to get back on the highway, proceed to an exit, turn around, get back on the highway in the opposite direction, exit again, and then get back on the highway to show him a speed limit sign. Well, that seems perfectly reasonable.

I have about one client per week who tells me that the "cop wouldn't show me his radar. That's against the law." Not only does the cop not have to show you his radar, he doesn't have to use his radar. He can pace you. He can even estimate your speed just by observing your car. Do these people think that speeding tickets didn't exist before police had radar?

Another of my favorites is, "62? Now how could I be running 62? My car won't even go 62!" What the fuck are you driving -- the vehicle of your neighbor Flintstone? What car doesn't go 62? Again, apparently at quite a few. I hear that one about once a month.

Anyway, the tasing is terrible, but it is fun to watch one of my jackass cliet-types in action.
posted by flarbuse at 11:16 AM on November 28, 2007

Speaking from a British perspective, I am *never* going to Utah.
Seriously.

You have a polite driver who asked to know what speed the officer thought he was doing, and wanted to show the officer the speed sign, before signing a document he didn't know the contents of, based on an offence the officer wouldn't tell him anything about, based on facts the officer wouldn't tell him either.

He clearly thought he was getting out of the car to go look at the speed sign, at the officer's instruction. Instead he gets threatened with arrest, virtually instantly has a weapon trained on him, and is then tased repeatedly in a matter of seconds, right next to fast-moving traffic for not doing exactly what the officer said on a couple of seconds notice, despite clearly being scared witless and looking like he wanted to run from the man pointing a weapon at him.

The officer's complete lack of professionalism and basic 'do what I tell you without argument, *right this second* or you get to ride the taser - no? *zap*' is frankly scary. The officer caused that situation from start to finish. That he still is wearing a badge is scary - that people can even consider for one second that his approach and handling of the incident was reasonable scares me even more. I can see, once he's at the taser holding stage, it's probably too late for the poor sap wanting to know what he's being cited for to escape unscathed - if it's a choice between being reasonable, and taking any risk to himself, the officer is going to make him ride the potentially lethal tase. But that it got to that point at all is entirely down to the cop's outright bullying attitude and total impression that he is the lord of all below him. He won't even read him his miranda rights, or pull him out of the way of traffic. The wife is frankly lucky she didn't get tased too - if he'd had a second unfired taser, I honestly believe he would have.

If a british cop behaved like that, he'd be on suspension within a day, and likely out of uniform for life within a fortnight - according to my friend's family which has several senior coppers in it.
posted by ArkhanJG at 11:17 AM on November 28, 2007 [5 favorites]

I know what I'd do.

Get tased so that sociopathic fascist enablers can giggle and masturbate furiously to the video on YouTube.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:18 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

Speaking of the "don't tase be bro" guy, here is a video of a guy heckling Guiliani, and he's clearly argumentative, but no one gets tased, because no one needs to be tased. But if that guy had been tased, a lot of the people defending this cop would say it was a perfictly fine thing to do, even though it would clearly have been unnecessary
posted by delmoi at 11:19 AM on November 28, 2007

Another of my favorites is, "62? Now how could I be running 62? My car won't even go 62!" What the fuck are you driving -- the vehicle of your neighbor Flintstone? What car doesn't go 62? Again, apparently at quite a few. I hear that one about once a month.

There was actually a British driver who got out of a ticket by demonstrating that his model of car was patently incapable of the speed the officer claimed he was doing.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:20 AM on November 28, 2007

posted by LordSludge Imagine if the pregnant wife was driving and *she* refused to sign, was ordered out of the car, and was tased IN THE BACK while the cop stood back and gloated. Now imagine you're the husband. What would you do? I know what I'd do.

Update your Twitter feed?

What are you doing?
Watching my pregnant wife get Tasered in the back by a gloating cop. OMG!
posted by fandango_matt at 11:21 AM on November 28, 2007 [2 favorites]

I watched this video last night when it was posted on Boing Boing and had the reaction of "I'd have tased his ass too." which is why that was my comment in this thread. It was not an attempt at trolling or a cry for attention. In retrospect, it was a poor way of expressing my opinion about this video, and was an especially poor way to start off this thread and caused a lot of people to get upset. I should have said "I don't think that the cop handled the situation as well as he could have, but I can understand why he did what he did as the individual that he tased was failing to obey his commands and acting in a way that could be interpreted as threatening." There are a lot of bad cops out there that do bad things. I don't think that this is one of them. Incompetent maybe, one with poor judgment, maybe, but I honestly don't think that this cop was out to abuse his authority or just looking for someone to tase. A cop has to be able to protect himself and has no way of knowing whether someone is armed or not and no way of knowing who is going to try and attack him or her. If you want to contest a ticket, follow an officer's instructions and contest it in traffic court. I am home for lunch and just watched the video again and had the exact same reaction.
posted by ND¢ at 11:22 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

I think everyone here thinks the driver was acting like a jerk. I think most of us believe there was probably justification to arrest him.

We all agree that generally, when a cop tells you to do something, you should do it.

Agreeing to that does not mean that you should tase somebody for not doing it or for acting like a jerk.
posted by empath at 11:29 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

tkolar writes "Also, I *really* wish that everyone here who is so black and white about 'appropriate' force could spend a few days approaching cars full of pissed off people who most likely hated you before you even turned on the siren. I think this particular cop used poor discretion, but I am nowhere near as certain of that as a lot of you folks seem to be."

That's the job. If you can't handle it, or if it causes you to lose your judgment, you should be in a different line of work.
posted by krinklyfig at 11:34 AM on November 28, 2007 [2 favorites]

flarbuse writes "Anyway, the tasing is terrible, but it is fun to watch one of my jackass cliet-types in action."

Jackass clients? Too bad you have so much contempt for the people whom you represent. Hope you never represent me.
posted by krinklyfig at 11:36 AM on November 28, 2007

Compare with this traffic stop . Ticketee goes absolutely apeshit, grabs the cop's ticket book, curses, swears.... watch how the cop handles it.

Ah, ya see there chummy, you're video is of a traffic stop in Maine. And the Maine troopah's a little more laid back than the ones in Utah, dontcha know? Now the fellah that the troopah pulled over was most likely wicked agitated because he was on his way to pickin' up some Allen's Coffee Flavored Brandy and a Powerball ticket. Just a different perspective up here, ayuh.
posted by SteveInMaine at 11:37 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

ND¢: not everyone already knows that if they don't do exactly as they're told by a Utah police officer immediately without question, they will be tased repeatedly and then 'put in jail'.

It is the duty of the police officer to explain to the suspect what he's doing, why he's doing it, and what he's going to do before he does it. The officer did none of those, unless you include 'turn around and put your hands behind your back! turn around and put your hands behind your back! *tase* Well, hurts a bit don't it. perhaps you should have followed my instructions'

He is virtually happy he tased the guy to his colleague. Didn't do what I said, so I tased his argumentative ass, paraphrasing.

The suspect didn't do what he was supposed to. He instead did what many people do when they're accused of something they don't think they did - they argue. He wanted to know what speed the officer thought he was doing - he got tased twice for daring to ask what he's accused of, and what he's being asked to sign. He clearly didn't realise how trigger happy the cop was - I doubt he's had much dealings or any with Utah police before.

I stand by my original assessment - complete unprofessionalism from the officer. Instead of controlling the situation peacefully and calmly, by explaining what he was doing and the legal consequences of non-compliance, including that he'd have the chance to contest it in court, the officer caused it to get to the point where tasering the guy and quite possibly his pregnant wife was his best course of action. That he gloated over doing it shows he should never wear a badge again.
posted by ArkhanJG at 11:37 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

I like how I can avoid a good bit of the encroaching police state by not owning a car.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 11:39 AM on November 28, 2007

Because of the volatile and unpredictable nature of traffic stops, I was almost willing to give the cop the benefit of the doubt, but the more I looked, the more I was really unhappy with what I saw;

The officer ordered the suspect out of the car, and did not do enough to make it clear that he was placing him under arrest.

He never read the suspect his Miranda rights. That alone should have been enough to get him in hot water.

He used the tazer as a compliance device. That is becoming increasingly common and to be frank, is complete bullshit. Tazers were designed to give officers a less than lethal option, it is not meant to be used when someone is disobeying in a non-violent way.

The more of this I see, the more I think that it might be time to take this tool away from the police.

And if I had any questions about my read of the situation the cop said: "he took a ride on the taser"

He clearly doesn't respect the tool that he is using, or it's impact on those whom he uses it. He makes light of it, as if it were funny. If for no other reason than this, he should not be allowed to continue being a police officer. He is not mentally equipped for it, nor does he have a disposition that is conductive to being a 'man of the peace'.

In other words: Fuck him.
posted by quin at 11:41 AM on November 28, 2007 [5 favorites]

The cop in anthill's video was completely awesome. This guy was pathetic. I can see why, once things got to the point where the cop turned around and saw some argumentative guy walking too closely to him, that he may have felt threatened enough to justify using the taser.

But he handled the situation in a completely piss-poor way to begin with. He was scowling and sighing like a retail clerk instead of projecting any confidence or authority. He had the option of being very patient, clear and authoritative, or if he felt the situation demanded a firm hand, he should have told the guy he was facing arrest, or gotten him out of the car and made him place his hands on his car.

Slipshod, pissy, easily scared: that's how this cop came across. Maybe he was having a bad day -- maybe -- but he was damn lucky he didn't run across someone who really was ready to hurt him, because I think he wouldn't have handled that situation very well, either.
posted by maudlin at 11:43 AM on November 28, 2007

Miranda rights don't have to be read until questioning.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:43 AM on November 28, 2007

Anybody got a handle on the 'fuck' count in this thread? It's like I'm watching Deadwood, though there's not been a cocksucker thrown out yet.

Is there a 'fuck' record for MeFi?
posted by xmutex at 11:46 AM on November 28, 2007

ArkhanJG writes "If a british cop behaved like that, he'd be on suspension within a day, and likely out of uniform for life within a fortnight - according to my friend's family which has several senior coppers in it."

And that's the problem. This level of violence from LEOs has become acceptable in the US, or it always sort of was anyway, but now we have more weapons. It is possible to enforce the law without being a brute, but so many people here think that's the only solution.
posted by krinklyfig at 11:48 AM on November 28, 2007

We're his employees and his responsibility is to us first -- even when we are being personally rude and obnoxious.

And ArkhanJG seconded.
posted by ersatz at 11:49 AM on November 28, 2007

Very true, Pope Guilty however, reading them to the guy might have calmed him down somewhat, as he clearly didn't know that. (too many detective shows I think).
posted by ArkhanJG at 11:50 AM on November 28, 2007

Family Shocked, Outraged after Deputy Shoots Pet Dog in their Yard
posted by homunculus at 11:58 AM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]