Lakota Indians Declare Independence

December 20, 2007 6:01 AM

The Lakota People have withdrawn from their treaties with the United States, citing numerous violations of those treaties by the US. They plan to start their own country, issuing passports and drivers' licenses and living tax-free.
posted by JDHarper (222 comments total)

I fear this is only the beginning of the Balkanization of the US, but godspeed to them.
posted by orthogonality at 6:07 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

This. Is. Awesome.

Please tell me that there's actually some binding law behind this, and that it's not just a toothless publicity stunt.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:10 AM on December 20, 2007

Oh, and nice use of the "indepdence" tag.
/snark
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:10 AM on December 20, 2007

I wonder if the term "Vichy Indians" will catch on? Didn't see that one coming!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:14 AM on December 20, 2007

The idea of Indian reserves or reservations is out of date. Their original purpose was little more than serving as a large, open air prison - "stay on these lands and stop attacking our wagon trains and villages" (ironic, sure). They should all either be declared autonomous nations or absorbed into the rest of the country.
posted by billysumday at 6:17 AM on December 20, 2007

Terrorists! Evil Doers! If you're not with us, you're agai...wait. I guess you already said that.
posted by fusinski at 6:17 AM on December 20, 2007

As much as I'd *like* to believe otherwise, this isn't the Balkanization of anything. Without a massive military-industrial complex and nuclear weapons behind them this amounts to an empty gesture by a couple of nutjobs, or at best some populist-themed brinksmanship aimed at securing some sort of federal concessions to avoid a nasty PR situation.

North Dakota? South Dakota? I'd bet anything you'd care to name that right next to their borders you'll find major ICBM launch facilities. The US government would be out of its goddamn mind to let them move forward with this, and *they're* out of their goddamn minds to even try it without a major sea port at the very least. How would they conduct major trade? How would any allies they could possibly secure - even if the US didn't completely and utterly dominate all the world's oceans - provide them material aid?
posted by Ryvar at 6:18 AM on December 20, 2007

They should all either be declared autonomous nations or absorbed into the rest of the country.

Or deported!
posted by fusinski at 6:18 AM on December 20, 2007 [8 favorites]

Does this mean we have to invade them now?
posted by zorro astor at 6:18 AM on December 20, 2007 [4 favorites]

Wow. Go, Indians. I can't say we don't deserve it. I expected the picture of Russell Means to show some rash young upstart, and yet he's a respectable middle-aged man. I hope this isn't a publicity stunt, also, as FOB said above.
posted by misha at 6:19 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Free Leonard Peltier!
posted by OmieWise at 6:19 AM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

Although, reading those stories, I'm not sure if they are referring to a current reservation or a mass of land that was designated in the 19th century. Either way, I'm sure that the United States will find numerous examples of why the Lakota failed to uphold their end of the treaty, fair or not, and this movement will go nowhere. Sadly.
posted by billysumday at 6:21 AM on December 20, 2007

Whether or not this works depends on how serious the tribal leaders are. If they're truly dedicated to independence, then they've plowed a bunch of casino money into lawyers and are willing to work with their (former) state and federal governments to let them retain a measure of influence over the conduct of Lakota affairs (e.g. extradition treaties, reciprocity of certain laws, etc). True secession happens either slowly and carefully or with violence.

If, as I suspect, said leaders are more interested in press releases than international law, then this will not end well.
posted by xthlc at 6:23 AM on December 20, 2007

misha writes "he's a respectable middle-aged man"

Well. Ahem. He ran for vice-president on a Republican ticket with Larry Flynt, and would have been the Libertarian's candidate in 1988 if Ron Paul hadn't beaten him for the nomination. Yeah, that Larry Flynt and that Ron Paul. MoRon Paultards!
posted by orthogonality at 6:26 AM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

Ryvar: *they're* out of their goddamn minds to even try it without a major sea port at the very least. How would they conduct major trade?

Lesotho and Swaziland have survived as independent, landlocked nations within South Africa. Of course, they have the benefit of a) being fairly large in comparison to the Lakota reservations, and b) being part of the Commonwealth. They are also desperately poor and suffering under a %40 HIV infection rate, so they may not be the best counterexamples.

How about San Marino? Europe has plenty of landlocked microstates due to historical reasons.
posted by xthlc at 6:30 AM on December 20, 2007

I expected the picture of Russell Means to show some rash young upstart, and yet he's a respectable middle-aged man.

As someone reminded daily of his own advancing decrepitude, I am in favor of broadening the term "middle-aged" to include a man who's nearly seventy. Without realizing it, though, you have probably seen Russell Means before.

It does sound very stunty to me; I can't imagine they're serious, for the reasons that Ryvar outlines above. Plus. I'm no history buff, but it seems to me that seceding from the US has a tendency to not work out all that well.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:30 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Do they have universal health care? Hmm, perhaps I'll get residency. I for one welcome our new sphygmomanometer-wielding Lakota overlords.

On another note, maybe this is the beginning of the Snow Crash U.S.
posted by chips ahoy at 6:32 AM on December 20, 2007

Fuck Yeah. Nice.

And Ryvar, why do you assume the US would say Fuck You right off the bat. Maybe the US would cede them land and let them govern themselves, trade with them, etc. Well, you know, maybe.
posted by chunking express at 6:32 AM on December 20, 2007

Let's say, for argument's sake, that the Lakota somehow manage to convince the rest of the world that they're a sovereign nation. We can be pretty sure the US will roll right in and start arresting Lakota for non-payment of taxes. What then? Canadians crossing the border to defend them? That'd be rad.

Pass the bong, man...
posted by uncleozzy at 6:34 AM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

chunking express writes "Maybe the US would cede them land and let them govern themselves, trade with them, etc."

Yeah, it would be convenient to have a place that's not under US legal jurisdiction, so we could relocated Guantanamo closer to home. Those Indians know about Indian burns and hanging prisoners from hooks in their chests and other clever forms of "extreme interrogation", right?
posted by orthogonality at 6:36 AM on December 20, 2007 [3 favorites]

There's no way they'll let these folks secede. If they did, well, pretty quick everyone would want to be free, and we can't have that.
posted by Malor at 6:36 AM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

Oh, and nice use of the "indepdence" tag.

Ouch. Nice. Thanks. Fixed.
posted by JDHarper at 6:39 AM on December 20, 2007

Those Indians know....

Indians are from India. Fuck.
posted by chunking express at 6:40 AM on December 20, 2007

Screw this. Next we'll have the 'nation of white supremecists' and the 'nation of laws that dont apply to me' or wait we had that and it was called the civil war and that didnt work out too well did it?
posted by damn dirty ape at 6:48 AM on December 20, 2007

Please tell me that there's actually some binding law behind this, and that it's not just a toothless publicity stunt.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:10 AM on December 20

It's a publicity stunt. There isn't any binding law on this, except the Constitution, which specifically forbids this. Furthermore, those treaties are no longer in effect, having been superseded many times over by federal law. You cannot legally seceded from the Union, no matter who you are or what the circumstances are.

We fought a war over this, remember?
posted by Pastabagel at 6:50 AM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

Boy, I really want there to be more to this story than there is. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at whatever federal organizations (State? Bureau of Indian Affairs?) are waking up to this story this morning and trying to grok it and imagine a US response.

The range of possible outcomes of this is all over the map - I kind of doubt ICBMs will ever figure into the story, but I certainly think some kind of violence is a possibility, given the amount of territory potentially at issue ("some 200000 km2" - see the map here) and the history. Let's hope some reasonable group of people on both sides can come up with a better resolution -
posted by newdaddy at 6:53 AM on December 20, 2007

_{Waaay off tangent, but I just found that good ol' Singapore is the _19th smallest_ nation-state out there. That blew my mind off.}
posted by the cydonian at 6:53 AM on December 20, 2007

So, wait, haven't AIM and other activist organizations essentially been trying to do this for years? They don't recognize the "Vichy Indians" of the tribal government, so I'm curious about what makes this different than, say, Wounded Knee.
posted by dreadpiratesully at 6:55 AM on December 20, 2007

Why would people who lived for thousands of years in an area without nautical trade give a shit as to whether they were landlocked? Are we playing Risk?

I think this could be totally rad, and would be a wonderful experiment that we could learn from. It's also telling that they would allow non-indians(non-natives?) who live on their lands to remain. I could see quite an influx of American ex-pats if they founded a Lakota nation based on the principles of their ancestors. Self sufficiency and simplicity are actually quite appealing to a lot of folks.
posted by butterstick at 6:56 AM on December 20, 2007 [4 favorites]

I'm worried this could end with a lot of wounded knees.
posted by pax digita at 6:59 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Good luck with that whole "no taxes" thing.

Undriveable roads will provide an incentive to do away with cars, and they've already got guns galore so who needs police?
posted by CynicalKnight at 6:59 AM on December 20, 2007

Didn't the Ottowa try this in Canada several years ago (or maybe it was in Quebec)? With guns? I can't find the article right now (I'm at work), but I seem to remember the event ending with bloodshed and futility.
posted by Pecinpah at 7:01 AM on December 20, 2007

They plan to start their own country, issuing passports and drivers' licenses and living tax-free.

I strongly suggest they talk to the southern states in the US before attempting this.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:03 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Is this North Lakota or South Lakota?
posted by Mister_A at 7:03 AM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

/glib
posted by Mister_A at 7:03 AM on December 20, 2007

Ok, so this obviously not last once the feds get in there with their guns n' shit. The Lakota probably know this. So the question is, what do they really hope to gain by doing this? I'd imagine they want some sort of concession from the US, but the question is what form that will take.
posted by Afroblanco at 7:05 AM on December 20, 2007

Why would people who lived for thousands of years in an area without nautical trade give a shit as to whether they were landlocked? Are we playing Risk?

Because any goods they'd want to obtain from the outside world would have to first pass through the territory of a now-hostile entity. You can't say "but they can go back to a traditional lifestyle", either - their people have seen the convenience and comfort that Western goods afford. I'm sorry but this seemed kind of obvious so I didn't bother to expand on it.


I kind of doubt ICBMs will ever figure into the story

To clarify: I wasn't suggesting anyone would ever be using nuclear weapons, just that claiming land bordering on major concentrations of ICBM launch sites is a great way to trigger a very rapid military crackdown on your political stunt.
posted by Ryvar at 7:06 AM on December 20, 2007

Do they have universal health care?

Um, no. Far from it.
posted by Tehanu at 7:06 AM on December 20, 2007

Dude, they don't need ports. CASINO MONEY. Let the fat white (wo)man fund their nation building a nickel at a time.
posted by Jeremy at 7:07 AM on December 20, 2007

Afroblanco, maybe they want their own State within the Union? That might give them more autonomy, if it was gerrymandered such that the Lakota were the majority of the population within it.
posted by chunking express at 7:10 AM on December 20, 2007

I'll say this too - this is one of those things that might have sounded trivial to political leaders a month ago, but its something that is well within the bounds of what the federal government ought to be keeping tabs on (even, nay, especially, under very conservative definitions of what the federal government's rightful purposes are). They ought to have been working actively for a long time beforehand to avoid arriving at a brinksmanship situation like this. Not to be provocative, but it kind of parallels other circumstances that the administration thought it safe to ignore until it blew up in their faces.

I'm not a lawyer, but I wouldn't want to put money either way on Pastabagel's assertion. Sure, you and I can't secede, but Indians are not solely citizens of the USA. And the point of secession is that you're not interested in playing ball anymore, you're taking your ball and going home. They may not care whether it's legal according to US law - but they seem to have found at least enough of a legal toehold on this issue to make assertions about it "We are alerting the Family of Nations we have now reassumed our freedom and independence with the backing of Natural, International, and United States law."
posted by newdaddy at 7:11 AM on December 20, 2007

Maybe you're right Ryvar, but seems to me like maintaining "the convenience and comfort that Western goods afford" would kinda miss the point of breaking away from the US.

But then again I kinda have this romantic Shadowrun style notion of how this could all work out.
posted by butterstick at 7:14 AM on December 20, 2007

And with all that money they could hire Blackwater to secure their borders and accompany their convoys across hostile territories. It's perfectly legal to hire a private army and deploy them as a protection force serving a peace keeping role - YAMIRITE!?
posted by Jeremy at 7:15 AM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

Pecinpah: Didn't the Ottowa try this in Canada several years ago (or maybe it was in Quebec)? With guns?

Perhaps you're thinking of the Oka crisis of 1990 (involving the Mohawk first nation).
posted by hangashore at 7:15 AM on December 20, 2007

To clarify: I wasn't suggesting anyone would ever be using nuclear weapons, just that claiming land bordering on major concentrations of ICBM launch sites is a great way to trigger a very rapid military crackdown on your political stunt.
posted by Ryvar at 10:06 AM on December 20

First of all, they're talking about a 5-state region. I guarantee you that not only does the region include ICBM silos, it probably includes NORAD headquarters at Cheyenne Mountain and dozens of other military bases. It also includes countless private residences and property. Imagine waking up and learning that your house is now in land claimed as part of someone else's country.

If this had even one-billionth percent chance of being real, the U.S. government would be the least of their worries. How do they plan to deal with the ranchers, farmers, state militias, and general gun owners who live in those states who may not want to live in a Lakota nation?

They wouldn't be seizing the land from the government, they'd have to seize it from the people who are currently living on it.
posted by Pastabagel at 7:16 AM on December 20, 2007 [3 favorites]

"...start arresting Lakota for non-payment of taxes..."

Curious - do American Indians (directly) pay Federal, State and other taxes? I would have suspected they were exonerated, simply because businesses on reservations aren't subject to some laws (e.g., both gambling and the sale of untaxed tobacco occurr).
posted by Mutant at 7:18 AM on December 20, 2007

How would any allies they could possibly secure - even if the US didn't completely and utterly dominate all the world's oceans - provide them material aid?

Lakota airlift?
posted by drezdn at 7:19 AM on December 20, 2007

Free Leonard Peltier!

(with purchase of second Leonard Peltier of equal or greater value)
posted by ZenMasterThis at 7:19 AM on December 20, 2007 [11 favorites]

I'm not a lawyer, but I wouldn't want to put money either way on Pastabagel's assertion.

The US government has bigger guns and lots of them. US lands aren't being turned into another country without a fight and we all know how that's going to go.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:20 AM on December 20, 2007

This won't go anywhere. Ce la vie.
posted by Atreides at 7:23 AM on December 20, 2007

chunking express: "Those Indians know....

Indians are from India. Fuck."

I can assure you that my Cherokee grandfather is Indian, calls himself Indian, and thinks of himself as Indian. Fuck.
posted by aerotive at 7:28 AM on December 20, 2007 [6 favorites]

Imagine waking up and learning that your house is now in land claimed as part of someone else's country.

They wouldn't be seizing the land from the government, they'd have to seize it from the people who are currently living on it.

forthelulz
posted by prostyle at 7:32 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Just to clarify on my side, I'm not saying that the entire area the Lakota once claimed is what they are now asserting as their territory. I don't know the extent of the border they are drawing, and it's not specified on their website. More than 50% of Lakota live outside of reservations (I can't find the link to that anymore, but had it earlier today.)
posted by newdaddy at 7:33 AM on December 20, 2007

Pastabagel, a reservation is not part of the union. We did not fight a war over this.

Perhaps they don't have the necessary resources to establish their own independent country in South Dakota. But they sure as hell need to completely sever all ties with the U.S. government. It has done absolutely nothing other than drag their entire community through the dirt.
I was in Pine Ridge, South Dakota last summer to help build some bunk beds. The people there are usually living 8 to 10 per trailer, so bunkbeds seem to help quite a bit.

I've lived in some of the most depressed areas of Mexico and Peru, but I've never seen anything like the poverty I saw in Pine Ridge. It's absolutely insane. Right there in the middle of the U.S.

The broken promises are quite well documented so I won't bother rehashing the whole issue here, but I think independence is exactly what they need.

(They also need elected leaders with tenures greater than one year and they need to offer businesses leases that don't need to be renewed every year - these two things would be possible if they left the concept of "reservation" behind and moved forward with independence.)
posted by Baby_Balrog at 7:33 AM on December 20, 2007 [3 favorites]

Brandon Blatcher - this isn't about guns. The land isn't the U.S. government's to begin with.
There's some dispute, quite a few white farmers own land that's technically within the reservation - this is more a matter of self-governance.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 7:35 AM on December 20, 2007

It won't happen. No way, no how. I don't know what they intend to accomplish, but if they genuinely think the result will be an independent Lakota nation, they're nuts. It is absolutely impossible that the US government would accept that, and the US government outguns them by such a huge factor it isn't even funny. If they really hold out for independence the best case is they're arrested, the worst case is they're killed, its physically impossible for them to actually hold off the US military, even after the way Bush has gutted it.

And, while there is a certain poetic justice involved in their actions, and the facts are certainly on their side in their "the USA broke the treaties so they no longer apply" argument, I've also got to say that I wouldn't live in their proposed nation if you paid me. Did you notice that the proposed government would be "informally chosen by community elders"? Yeah, that sounds like a workable system, and could never devolve into a nasty powergrubbing oligarchy...

There's also the "no taxes" bit, combined with the fact that even if they do manage to sieze the entire area of the former Lakota nation, it isn't what you'd call economically viable. Every state in the area they claim takes in more Federal tax dollars than they pay, which doesn't argue well for economic success.

Which leaves the question: what do they really want? The answer *can't* be what they claim to want, I simply can't believe they'd be stupid or crazy enough to think they could actually pull it off, so what do they *really* want?
posted by sotonohito at 7:36 AM on December 20, 2007

In a dream world of negotiated compromise couldn't they end up with a deal like Bhutan has with India - practical independence but allowing the giant neighbour to set the military/regional relationships policy?
posted by Abiezer at 7:39 AM on December 20, 2007

As Baby_Balrog describes, reservations are some of the most depressing places on earth. Healthcare is not even third world quality in some cases; unemployment, alcoholism, and chronic illnesses like diabetes run rampant. These people are hurting. Still, there's no way the US government is going to allow any group to break off a piece of land and declare sovereignty.
posted by Mister_A at 7:42 AM on December 20, 2007

They're not talking about huge chunks of land. There are large reservations located throughout "western parts of North and South Dakota and Nebraska and eastern parts of Wyoming and Montana." Because they're reservations, they cannot form any kind of cohesive government or set policy on their own. They need to be made independent so that they can direct their own government and begin to rebuild their economies.

I seriously doubt the U.S. government will even take notice of this - they sure as shit haven't noticed the Lakota since the Wounded Knee massacre - and didn't until the Lakota started questioning the fact the the U.S. government's handling of the reservations was rife with corruption. This will be good - hopefully, it will also reduce the individual Lakota's dependence on their monthly government check and encourage them to care for their land once again.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 7:45 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

1) Remeber AIM did the Pine Ridge standoff in the early 70s.

2) Misha (and orthogonality and kittens_for_breakfast): Russell was part of that standoff, and thus has more renown than just "Libertarian Candidate" or "Movie Actor".

3) I wonder what Ward Churchill has to say.

4) Mister_A, according to the article, the Rosebud reservation isn't taking part. They don't mention other rez's. I'm guessing that, if this is part of the tribal leadership as a whole and not just an AIM stunt, that Pine Ridge Reservation is the main focus. In that case, it would be the WEST Lakota. ;)

I think they're ready for guns. They've done it before. Also, Oka isn't the only standoff. In March, there was a standoff in Quebec, as well as this standoff in Caledonia. Mostly Water has more excellent coverage/articles on that standoff (it's over, AFAIK, but they were on top of things when it was all going down). I highly recommend that site for First Nations issues.
posted by symbioid at 7:48 AM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

Also, speaking of Federal Gov't fucking over the Native Americans. Don't forget the BIA complete mismanagement of federal funds for tribes!
posted by symbioid at 7:49 AM on December 20, 2007

Here is a good NY Times piece from 1998 on Indian independence, this is not new.

And no, the Lakota can't do this, any more than any other American citizens can, they are members of a "dependent nation" which exists only in Federal Law, not outside it.

From the Supreme Court Lone Wolf v. Hitchcock, 1903: "The power exists to abrogate the provisions of an Indian treaty, though presumably such power will be exercised only when circumstances arise which will not only justify the government in disregarding the stipulations of the treaty, but may demand, in the interest of the country and the Indians themselves, that it should do so. When, therefore, treaties were entered into between the United States and a tribe of Indians it was never doubted that the power to abrogate existed in Congress, and that in a contingency such power may be availed of from considerations of governmental policy, particularly if consistent with perfect good faith towards the Indians."
posted by blahblahblah at 7:51 AM on December 20, 2007

Big standoff in Ontario along Lake Huron several years ago, too--went on for a couple of years. These things can certainly turn violent if poorly managed.

Indians say "Indian" all the time--in areas here in Michigan with a lot of them, you see "You're in Indian Country!" bumper stickers, which I think is pretty sharp. What I don't know is whether it's one of those things you can say if you're in-group but not if you're an outsider.
posted by texorama at 7:53 AM on December 20, 2007

They've been watching too much Bjork.

The question keeps getting asked: "What do they want?" To be honest, I don't think they know, but this is a statement akin to: "This Shit Ain't Working". If this current state of the Rez is the best that the Feds can do, they have nothing to lose by striking out on their own. They are looking for change and they're prepared to light a few fires to get some.

Declare independence - don't let them do that to you.
posted by unixrat at 7:53 AM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

1) Remeber AIM did the Pine Ridge standoff in the early 70s.

This is the sort of thing I think very few people know about. I only learned about the Pine Ridge Standoff because one of my coworkers at an old job used to bring tribal newspapers in to work and I would read them.

Technically, aren't reservations already considered sovereign, except they aren't in practice?
posted by drezdn at 7:53 AM on December 20, 2007

Indians say "Indian" all the time

Seems so backwards. You would think they'd distance themselves from the term, since it makes no sense whatsoever -- plus it's a label given to them by the people who have spent the past couple hundred years oppressing them.
posted by chunking express at 7:59 AM on December 20, 2007

drezdn Technically, aren't reservations already considered sovereign, except they aren't in practice?

They have some powers of states, but they are subordinate to the Federal government, which can modify those powers, apparently the official status is "dependent nation". Major crimes are prosecuted by the Federal government, but the tribes also have their own court systems and can be immune from certain kinds of suits. Wikipedia, for what its worth.
posted by blahblahblah at 7:59 AM on December 20, 2007

Their country is bordered by Cascadia
posted by hortense at 7:59 AM on December 20, 2007

drezdn - the Supreme Court decision that blahblahblah cites above addresses this question directly, but it's a nonsense decision - "In conformity with the then prevalent restrictive view of Indian tribal sovereignty, White held that Congress had plenary power over Indian property “by reason of its exercise of guardianship over their interests."
The issue at hand is that the Federal government hasn't acted as guardians of the Lakota's interests. It's a complete sham. And any lawyer worth his shit should be able to build a case for this. The U.S. has violated their treaties with the Lakota time and time again. Independence is a very viable and I think necessary action on the part of the Lakota.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 7:59 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

chunking express: Russell Means wrote on article on why he calls himself (American) Indian and NOT Native American, here. I don't know if I agree with his logic (essentially, Indian is derived from In Dio -- With God. I have a feeling that etymology is a bit weak). That said, that is his justification for it.

Native American is really a white mans PC term. And really, I think whatever they want to call themselves is fine. In fact, I'd prefer they keep their tribal names and stop being lumped in altogether with each other. But I suppose we tend to lump together (especially when it comes to overall results) Black, White, Asian, etc...

I really like the term "First Nations" but that's apparently used only in Canada. :(
posted by symbioid at 8:03 AM on December 20, 2007

** ghost dances wildly
posted by isopraxis at 8:04 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

A peaceful end to white American expansion while preaching messages of clean living, an honest life, and cross-cultural cooperation.
posted by isopraxis at 8:07 AM on December 20, 2007

Here's the original statement of intent, from 1997. At that point, they were basing their case on "the 1868 Fort Laramie Treaty", which closed the Lakota Territory to white settlement. And then there was a gold rush, the government broke the treaty, and beat the Lakota down in the Black Hills War (which included the battle of Little Bighorn, with Custer and all that).

Apparently our current guys regard every treaty signed after that one as coerced and therefore invalid, which... I don't think international law works that way.

(Incidentally, the Lakota successfully sued for the seized land (and won $122.5 million) back in 1980.)
posted by ormondsacker at 8:07 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Personally, I think it would be awesome to find out that the whole idea behind this was to create sovereign data havens where the MPAA and RIAA would have no legal jurisdiction.

I mean, I would totally pay money to co-loc my servers on Lokota-net.
posted by quin at 8:08 AM on December 20, 2007

Lakota-net. ugh, I need my morning caffeine apparently.
posted by quin at 8:09 AM on December 20, 2007

Imagine waking up and learning that your house is now in land claimed as part of someone else's country.

Better yet, first imagine your grandparents claiming someone else's land, putting your house on it, and going to sleep like it's no big deal.
posted by cashman at 8:15 AM on December 20, 2007 [29 favorites]

Ok, I misread the press release, and I thought they wanted all five states back, so that was my misunderstanding. Apparently, what they are talking about is this.

And Indian reservations have an odd legal status. The tribes have some limited power of self-government, i.e. limited sovereignty but reservation land is held in trust for the tribes by the U.S. government. So they don't really control the land, even if they can govern their people. This is basically a bureaucratic recipe for disaster, and the results that Baby Balrog describes are to be expected, given the legal crack they've fallen through.

Personally, I think it would be awesome to find out that the whole idea behind this was to create sovereign data havens where the MPAA and RIAA would have no legal jurisdiction.

The Blackfeet Tribe runs an international offshore bank. They have offices around the world.
posted by Pastabagel at 8:21 AM on December 20, 2007

I like how the tribes get the nsn.us domain. I believe NSN stands for "native sovereign nation."
posted by grouse at 8:25 AM on December 20, 2007

Indians say "Indian" all the time

In Washington, we have the Smithsonian's National Museum of the American Indian on the Mall, where on every single tour, the guide get this question.

Usually they explain that anybody born in America is, by definition, a native American. The group referenced by the term "American Indian" is a collection of peoples who did not consider themselves to be a single entity until Europeans, calling all these folks generically 'indians,' did some very nasty shit to them.

So, they could make up a new word to describe their woebegone compatriots, or just use the historically entrenched term.

On preview, Russell Mean's etymology is, uh, suspect.

And also, reclaiming a term for your "group" (be it cultural, genetic, perceived, whatever) is fairly common. Look at the queer community for instance; use of the word queer to self-identify was a very intentional and politically-minded adoption of what had until reclamation been a very derogatory term.
posted by CaptApollo at 8:27 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Patabagel - the website for that bank links to a legal opinion (pdf) summarising the sovereignty of the tribe. Key quote: "Congress and the U.S. Supreme Court have long recognised that Indian tribes possess inherent sovereignty that antedates the existence of the United States..."
posted by patricio at 8:28 AM on December 20, 2007

Pastabagel, a reservation is not part of the union. We did not fight a war over this.

Perhaps they don't have the necessary resources to establish their own independent country in South Dakota. But they sure as hell need to completely sever all ties with the U.S. government. It has done absolutely nothing other than drag their entire community through the dirt.
I was in Pine Ridge, South Dakota last summer to help build some bunk beds. The people there are usually living 8 to 10 per trailer, so bunkbeds seem to help quite a bit.

I've lived in some of the most depressed areas of Mexico and Peru, but I've never seen anything like the poverty I saw in Pine Ridge. It's absolutely insane. Right there in the middle of the U.S.

posted by Baby_Balrog at 10:33 AM on December 20 [+] [!]

Ditto. I was there about 10 years ago--I've never seen such poverty and all-around rundown conditions. Incredible unemployment rates, rotten buildings, no future.
posted by etaoin at 8:29 AM on December 20, 2007

If they are no longer part of the USA, what laws now apply there, according to the Lakota? Is it a free for all until they've drafted their own constitution? Or did they already have one ready to apply?
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 8:31 AM on December 20, 2007

Toward an Oglala Lakota Contitution
posted by ormondsacker at 8:38 AM on December 20, 2007

So the essential US Govt rule is Steal it and its yours forever?
posted by A189Nut at 8:41 AM on December 20, 2007

kittens for breakfast writes "I'm no history buff, but it seems to me that seceding from the US has a tendency to not work out all that well."

Well to be fair there is only one serious data point.
posted by Mitheral at 8:43 AM on December 20, 2007

My church supports a women's shelter in Pine Ridge. Two of our members have essentially adopted a family out there and they have shown us pictures and told us stories about the conditions there. I'll be interested to hear what they have to say about this new wrinkle.

I think it's admirable, but can't see how it will work.
posted by Biblio at 8:44 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Part of this isn't unprecedented. The Iroquois have used their own passports for a while.

Earliest reference I could find was for a trip in 1923. Here's a 2002 article mentioning their use by the Iroquois Nationals Lacrosse team.
posted by pandaharma at 8:49 AM on December 20, 2007

The Museum:Wounded Knee (flash) stoke the fires.
posted by hortense at 8:49 AM on December 20, 2007

Patabagel - the website for that bank links to a legal opinion (pdf) summarising the sovereignty of the tribe. Key quote: "Congress and the U.S. Supreme Court have long recognised that Indian tribes possess inherent sovereignty that antedates the existence of the United States..."
posted by patricio at 11:28 AM on December 20

That sovereignty does not extend to printing currency, raising an army, making war, etc. Their sovereignty in many ways falls short of that of a state. And again, the tribe is not the same as the reservation, the actual land under their feet. They do not have complete control. More to the point, as the opinion you mentioned indicates, that sovereignty is subject to review by U.S. Courts. Like any other supreme court decision, the court can change its mind, and the law, later. The extent of that sovereign authority came up in court again as recently as the early 80's when tribes successfully fought for the right to operate casinos and gambling establishments. But even that authority is subject to regulation by Congress in the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act.

Tribes cannot traffic illegal drugs as a business (they can use certain drugs as part of religious practices). They cannot violate US copyright laws. They cannot engage in criminal enterprises. They are not a sovereign nation like Canada or Lichtenstein. This may be part of the problem, of course, but eliminating the sovereignty entirely may also be part of the solution. If counties neighboring reservations aren't nearly as poor as the reservations themselves, then it appears there is a cost to isolating themselves from the U.S.
posted by Pastabagel at 8:50 AM on December 20, 2007

So the essential US Govt rule is Steal it and its yours forever?
Agreed, and Poland needs to give back Upper Silesia right godamn now.

Here's a more detailed article about the state of the Lakota Sioux government and constitution. In particular, it modifies what I said earlier about the court decision.

The Supreme Court in United States v. Sioux Nation, affirmed the Court of Claims decision and authorized a monetary settlement of more that eighty five million dollars. Now, over twenty years later, the Sioux Nation has still not accepted the monetary award. The Sioux Nation does not want a monetary settlement; it wants the United States to return the Black Hills to the tribe.

Although the Oglala sought to enlist international support from European governments and international humanitarian groups in an effort to pressure the United States to return the Black Hills, or at least the federal portion of the Black Hills, this international assistance has not resulted in the return of the Black Hills.

posted by ormondsacker at 8:51 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

So all this talk about guns and trades and economies, has anyone actually been through an Indian reservation? I drove through one once, it was the most depressing place in the world. It was seriously third world conditions in there. Drive through liquor stores, desperate poverty, no one actually doing much of anything. The worst part was the complete lack of hope. It was as if I was driving through a weird tableau, where everyone in it knew nothing was going to change.
posted by geoff. at 9:09 AM on December 20, 2007

10:00 AM, Wednesday: Lakota secede from U.S., fully expecting news crews on Thursday and armed U.S. Military forces beating down their doors by Friday.

9:00 AM, Sunday: Some temp in the White House finally lets the current administration in on the joke, and George, Condi, and Dick have a great old laugh about it, ignoring the situation entirely.

11:45 PM, Monday: Administration realizes that all armed U.S. forces are overseas, and there is no way to put down a quiet revolution. Lakota seize western United States.
posted by mr_book at 9:13 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Well... I for one would like to quietly challenge the system. Walk up to Lakota land w/ your passport in hand and ask for a week visa to come in as a tourist. And then, on the way out, demand that you get a return visa from US customs.

Then the Lakota can shout "precedent! precedent!" all they like. And they'd be right!

maybe thats a pipe dream way of formalizing their nationhood. But I like it.
posted by Sam.Burdick at 9:15 AM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

President Bush clears it up:

Tribal sovereignty means that. It's sovereign. You're a…you're a…you've been given sovereignty and you're viewed as a sovereign entity. And therefore the relationship between the federal government and...tribes is one between...sovereign entities.

posted by kirkaracha at 9:15 AM on December 20, 2007 [6 favorites]

Most Indians I know want to be called by their first name.

I really and truly hope this works out for the Lakota.
posted by sleepy pete at 9:23 AM on December 20, 2007 [3 favorites]

So all this talk about guns and trades and economies, has anyone actually been through an Indian reservation? I drove through one once, it was the most depressing place in the world. It was seriously third world conditions in there. Drive through liquor stores, desperate poverty, no one actually doing much of anything. The worst part was the complete lack of hope. It was as if I was driving through a weird tableau, where everyone in it knew nothing was going to change.

I hate to spoil you story but Detroit is NOT an Indian Reservation.
posted by srboisvert at 9:26 AM on December 20, 2007 [6 favorites]

I'm guessing the "Great Father" in Washington is going to call their bluff and threaten to cut off their funding and this will all blow over fairly soon.
posted by Pollomacho at 9:30 AM on December 20, 2007

Free Tibet Dakota!
posted by homunculus at 9:41 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Hau Mitakuye Oyasin!
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 9:43 AM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

The "sovereignty" enjoyed by Indian tribes isn't absolute; at best, it's a little better than what U.S. States get. But ultimately they're still under the authority of the Federal government, the U.S. Supreme Court, and the Constitution, in terms of what's the absolute law of the land.

And you don't need to look very far to see where that power originates: it's basically the old 'right of conquest,' hoary as that may seem today. The Lakota fought, and eventually lost (although only after a very long time and extreme tactics, i.e. the destruction of the buffalo, by the U.S. military) an outright war.

For that reason, I think it's unlikely that they'll be taken seriously; too much U.S. territory has been acquired this way. To cede anything to the Lakota would potentially empower other defeated groups who had their lands taken by force and annexed. It's a Pandora's Box that the U.S. government (like virtually all other Western nations) does not want to open up.

I think it's more likely that the Lakota will have another visit from the 7th Cavalry than be allowed to secede completely, to be quite blunt.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:46 AM on December 20, 2007

President Bush clears it up:

In much the same way a 'D' average High School student who hasn't prepared, clears up his mid term speech presentation. By repeating the title over and over in different way with different inflections until, in the privacy of his brain, he has adequately answered the questions.
posted by quin at 9:49 AM on December 20, 2007 [4 favorites]

I am sure total independence will not happen but, if it did the money they could make would be much needed. Crazy amounts of money in no time at all (legalize drugs, prostitution, and gambling) the tourism business could entirely change, to hell with Vegas I am going to Lakota nation.
posted by hexxed at 9:49 AM on December 20, 2007

That clip has always caused me such aggravation, that is manifests as physical pain between my ears whenever I watch it.
posted by quin at 9:50 AM on December 20, 2007

Agreed, and Poland needs to give back Upper Silesia right godamn now.

As soon as Ukraine gives back Lwow, Belarus gives back Minsk, and Lithuania gives back Wilno.
posted by Meatbomb at 9:52 AM on December 20, 2007

From my experience, most Indians tend to identify themselves by their tribes -- and there are some tribes that have enormous animosity toward each other. They are only "Indians" -- as in, a collective mass of undifferentiated indigenous peoples -- to outsiders, and so they use the word "Indians" to refer to themselves as part of that collective mass, and it's not how they would ordinarily self-identify.

My Mandan/Hidatsa ex-girlfriend called herself Indian. I used the word "indigenous" around her once, and she balked; I think she found it too clinical sounding.

I've heard some Indian youths refer to themselves as "skins," but that's a very insider-y thing.
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:53 AM on December 20, 2007

Black Elk approves.
posted by milarepa at 9:58 AM on December 20, 2007

Careful. They have fireworks of mass destruction.
posted by Artw at 10:03 AM on December 20, 2007 [3 favorites]

Anyone know if the Eagle Butte Lakota in South Dakota are part of this? I spent a week this summer helping repair an Episcopal parsonage there and met some really nice people. If they could do a better job bringing in enterprise that suited their needs as an independent country than as a "reservation" under US laws, I could see some real advantages.
posted by lleachie at 10:19 AM on December 20, 2007

A few years ago the Pine Ridge and Rosebud reservations were very high on the list of the most poverty stricken regions in the U.S. One of them may have held the top spot. Crime is very bad as well. They're tough, dangerous places. And unfortunately, from what I've heard they are not among the Native communities that have maintained their traditions like the Hopi, or some of the Pueblo tribes. This would make a lot more sense if they were economically successful like the Navajo, although it would still be doomed. But I really don't understand what they think they are going to gain. This isn't going to bring economic opportunity. Drugs, prostitution and gambling are available now. Sovereignty doesn't mean law and order manifests out of thin air.

I've lived on a small square of white man's land surrounded by reservations - about a 30 minute drive to get to the other side of the reservations. The one I was closest to was fairly prosperous, relatively speaking. No opportunity at all on the res, and they were very dependent on federal money. A friend of mine volunteered to build a house on a reservation (Creek?), in the Northern plain states. Within a couple of weeks of finishing, the plumbing had been dug up and sold for scrap in order to buy alcohol. And this in an area where temperatures in the -20s were well within possibility for winter. They might be well served by reducing welfare aid, but I suspect that the immediate elimination of funds would be catastrophic.

Going back to the traditions of a wandering horse (brought by the Europeans) people is a pipe dream. The strongest representatives of the religious sensibility are dead. Frank Fools Crow, the last great Lakota medicine man, saw the culture was dying. There's no question they've gotten a bad deal but this isn't the best choice if they are concerned about future generations' quality of life. Assimilation is. There's other avenues for productive work than being part of a folk dance troupe. I'm all for independence and initiative, and this is still the wrong way to go. Focusing on business and not rejecting out of hand everything associated with the white man will bring a much greater return.
posted by BigSky at 10:19 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Some thoughts. It's a really difficult situation and there is not a simple solution. I think that only the Lakota (and other American Indians in similar situations) can help themselves. I think head-on conflict with the rest of the US is misguided.

Who owns the land: Conquest has, at least in the west, long been recognized as a legitimate way to bring about dominion over a realm. Look at how well that worked out in the long history of the Brittish Isles and France. For example, William of Orange. It's only recently that we've gotten all touchy-feely about it.

Who has more guns: It's not guns that are going to stop them. What will stop them is bureaucracy and indifference. The area they claims has people living there and local institutions in place. The non-Lakota aren't going to change their lifestyle--they'll ignore it just as the Federal government will ignore it. Local police may be called on to arrest some Lakota. There may even be a Waco-style stand-off. But what will eventually cause them to fail is simple a question of mindshare. If nobody believes that their country exists, then it doesn't. And a month from now, nobody will believe that, regardless of what we feel is just.

The condition of the Reservation and the lure of Western luxury: The ones I have seen were fairly tragic, and the ones in Washington are not the worst at all by what I hear. I don't know what the solution is. Perhaps they've been worried about land for so long they missed the point where capitol became more important than land. Do they really want to live as their ancestors did? I don't want to live as my ancestors did. Several people have mentioned this and I have to ask the question: is being a "soverign" (whatever that might mean) more important than raising your people out of poverty? Plenty of ethnic groups live and exist in this country in traditional manners (see the Hasidics of NY, and other enclaves of Indian (as in India), Japanese, etc) without having their own patch of land carved out of it. The reservation system is holding them back, I agree. The solution, to me, seems not to try to fix it but to leave it behind entirely. Education will serve the far better than land.

The long history of treaty violations, corruption in the BIA and general abuse by the Federal Government: Terrible but non-undoable. The Reservation system should be abolished. It may have been seen as a way of preserving their rights, but it has been perverted and only served to hold them back and keep them in poverty. We all know "seperate but equal" doesn't work. When it was abolished things blacks were finally able to stand among whites as equals. Of course there is still disparity and still work to be done, but things are better. It's time for the American Indians to take their rightful place in society which is along side everyone else. We're all here; nothing will change that. We all have to live together. History will show that integration is far more beneficial to everyone than segregation.

The loss of Tribal identity: It may be inevitable. If it is truly important to a group of people, nothing can destroy their identity and culture. If education and mixing with non-tribal people is all it takes, than maybe it wasn't so great to begin with. If it is the price of leaving poverty behind, perhaps it is worth it. People matter more than customs and religion.
posted by jeffamaphone at 10:25 AM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

I have donated money to these folks. Good for them. And yeah, they don't care about about the whole "Indian" thing. They're laid back like that.
posted by wfc123 at 10:32 AM on December 20, 2007

The analogy to the Confederacy is off base. Native Americans already have various levels of sovereignty the Confederacy never had. The treaties that bind them to the US (and that grant them limited sovereignty, as if that is something the US government has to give away) have been violated repeatedly in large and small ways ever since by whites and the US and state governments, shrinking already minuscule reservations steadily over the course of the 20th century. (PS, above, the reservation system comes a long time after "wagon trains" were done for).

Legally, there is a case to be made here. Morally, there's an even better case. Go Lakota!
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:34 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

I hope it works out for them. I give them my full support and best wishes.
posted by cazoo at 10:36 AM on December 20, 2007

Also, you can bet that lots of countries will recognize the Lakota Nation if they have a chance to do so just to stick a finger in Bush's ass, and America's arrogant do-as-we-say-not-as-we-do ass as well.

Here's someone who really doesn't know the word "sovereignty":

President Bush on tribal sovereignty. (Youtube link)
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:37 AM on December 20, 2007

"I hate to spoil you story but Detroit is NOT an Indian Reservation."

They got casinos!
posted by klangklangston at 10:47 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Here's someone who really doesn't know the word "sovereignty":

That was funny. "Tribal sovereignty means you're sovereign. You've been given sovereignty. It means you're a sovereign entity."

If you listen closely, I'm pretty sure that's the audience laughing in the background at what a dumb fuck he sounds like.
posted by jayder at 10:47 AM on December 20, 2007

That Bush clip is a classic. Comedy gold.
posted by disgruntled at 10:58 AM on December 20, 2007

There's no question they've gotten a bad deal but this isn't the best choice if they are concerned about future generations' quality of life. Assimilation is.

And that's how you kill off an entire people in two or three hundred years.
posted by chunking express at 11:18 AM on December 20, 2007 [3 favorites]

I think the Lakota are getting way ahead of the trend. But I suppose somebody had to go first.

Not that I think this a good or wise thing. In fact it's stupid as shit.

Asking for passports and shit from your main source of revenue... old white Americans... is not going to keep the Lakota coffers filled. In fact if they pursue this and succeed in succession...uh... heh... they will find them selves cut off from their revenue.

There will be nothing stopping the US side of the new Lakota border from hassling the shit out of returning US citizens maybe even demanding duty on the casino winnings. Making it so awful to go to these idiot casinos and water parks that the Lakota will have no revenue at all.

As Larry David says "Prit-tay... prit-tay... prit-tay... stupid."

Like I said. Somebody had to go first, though. I will bet any Mefite $10 that by 2025-2035 there will be several somewhat serious succession movements in the US.

And some, after about fifty years, will work. I'm thinking the coasts will succeed by 2120 at the latest. They will do this rather than be dragged into the third world mire of poverty and fanatical religious ignorance by Jesusland.
posted by tkchrist at 11:20 AM on December 20, 2007 [3 favorites]

Cooler heads at Wikipedia on this publicity stunt...

It is as yet unclear whether the statements of the activists represent the view of the elected government(s) of the Sioux Nation ...

So, if I just yell loud enough, does that mean I can declare Cascadia an independent nation, too?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:21 AM on December 20, 2007

I will bet any Mefite $10 that by 2025-2035 there will be several somewhat serious succession movements in the US.

Define "somewhat serious" and I'll take that bet.

Somewhat serious ≠ a bunch of guys at a press conference.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:23 AM on December 20, 2007

Define "somewhat serious" and I'll take that bet.

I would say that means led or underwritten by major corporate and or wealthy interests.
posted by tkchrist at 11:28 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

I imagine that if the US government was feeling spiteful, they could let this go through, and then promptly concentrate on building a small fence around their new nation.

The United States did conquer their land, and the treaty seems more like a favor to them than anything else. They have exemptions from certain laws, taxes, and prohibitions that other US citizens do not benefit from, and government stipends. That reservations are depressing places is no one's fault but those who live there. They're not legally bound to the land, they can leave at any time, or improve it to be a shining example.

Canada's practice of referring to "First Nations" perpetuates a myth of the "Noble Savage", that American Indians were largely peaceful people. In reality, they practiced war as often as on any other continent, and it is unlikely that they were the First Nations, but rather the victorious nations of prior wars.

It seems altogether unfair that people who were rightly defeated in war, but never enslaved, get preferential treatment by their government, but those who were forceably brought to this continent as slaves do not.
posted by explosion at 11:40 AM on December 20, 2007

Yes. Go, Lakota. Get your land back from the white men who stole it from you. Then you can give it back to the Arikara, Mandan, Hidatsa, and Cheyenne that you stole it from. Then the Cheyenne can give their share back to the Kiowa, Crow, and Pawnee that they stole it from.

As anyone who has lived on or near any Lakota rez knows, there is always inter-tribal conflict as one faction or other vies for power, almost always to the detriment of the tribe itself. This is just a publicity stunt designed to leverage power for the benefit of Means and whatever tribal faction he's aligned himself with this month.
posted by joaquim at 11:43 AM on December 20, 2007 [3 favorites]

Native American is really a white mans PC term. And really, I think whatever they want to call themselves is fine. In fact, I'd prefer they keep their tribal names and stop being lumped in altogether with each other. But I suppose we tend to lump together (especially when it comes to overall results) Black, White, Asian, etc...

Not a perfect solution. Many of the common tribal names are adopted from settlers or nearby tribes -- as James Wilson put it, it's akin to aliens landing in Britain and asking who lived on the other side of the Channel and henceforth calling those people "The Bloody Frogs."

They are only "Indians" -- as in, a collective mass of undifferentiated indigenous peoples -- to outsiders, and so they use the word "Indians" to refer to themselves as part of that collective mass, and it's not how they would ordinarily self-identify.

There is also an argument, especially among some older tribe members, that since the treaties and case law were putatively transacted with "Indians," the abandonment of the term could be part of a covert termination policy -- by no longer using the word, the treaties no longer apply. This is actually a very realistic concern given the history of U.S. policy in this area.

And again, the tribe is not the same as the reservation, the actual land under their feet...

Pastabagel, I like you and all, but you are wrong, wrong, wrong. Native American law makes this at best a dicey question, but the precedent and history here are ample and you have no idea what you are talking about. The tribes are generally considered dependent sovereigns or "wards" of the U.S. based solely on their original treaties -- which is why blood quanta issues differ for various tribes in establishing membership -- and it is by no means a foregone conclusion that they cannot reclaim their sovereignty.

In fact, the tribal nations actually have an even stronger and older claim to sovereignty than many of the territories like Puerto Rico, which have come close to seceding many times. The fact that they are all governed by federal law (note: not state law) is by dint of the fact that they are wards of the federal government, as sovereign nations, much like the state (who do, in fact, have some degree of sovereignty). You bring up the drug example while ignoring the obvious -- the reason tribal casinos exist in states that don't allow casinos is that the tribes are independent authorities that can formulate their own gambling laws.

Again, the relationship between the federal government and the native tribes is explicitly between sovereign nations, governed by technically international treaties which create a "ward" status for the tribal nations, and yes, those treaties can be abrogated. The case law here is ample. Lone Wolf is by no means the final word on that score, as it doesn't resolve the issue of who the land belongs so. In this case the controlling precedent is still probably Johnson v. M'intosh, where Marshall was noticeably reluctant about acknowledging a conquest-based taking of the tribal lands.

Regardless of how this shakes out, the legal grounds should not be lightly dismissed, particularly if you're not, you know, remotely familiar with them.
posted by spiderwire at 12:03 PM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

The United States did conquer their land, and the treaty seems more like a favor to them than anything else.

On the contrary, in most cases the treaties were negotiated freely by both sides, and I assure you that many of the tribes were never "conquered"by force.

They have exemptions from certain laws, taxes, and prohibitions that other US citizens do not benefit from, and government stipends.

They are not "exempt" from anything. They are simply not directly subject to state authority, like most U.S. citizens. They also don't receive state stipends, which is a misnomer anyway -- many nations receive U.S. aid, but you don't hear people calling money going to Israel or Africa a "stipend" most of the time.

Canada's practice of referring to "First Nations" perpetuates a myth of the "Noble Savage", that American Indians were largely peaceful people.

Horseshit. "First Nations" means exactly that -- they were nations, and they were here first. The U.S. government recognizes this as well. You don't know what "noble savage" means.

In reality, they practiced war as often as on any other continent, and it is unlikely that they were the First Nations, but rather the victorious nations of prior wars.

That is a historically ignorant statement. Most of North America was too sparsely populated to support wide-scale wars. Occasional tribal conflicts, perhaps. Try further South. Most of the Native America tribes were essentially original settlers.

It seems altogether unfair that people who were rightly defeated in war,

"Rightly defeated in war" -- inaccurate, ignorant, and morally vapid. Well done.

but never enslaved,

Right -- so the government never exercised legal control over them, so instead it should be imagined up in retrospect. Makes sense.

get preferential treatment by their government,

Ever been to a reservation? Heard of the Cherokee Indians? Trail of Tears? Klamath Indians? Termination policy? Ring a bell?

but those who were forceably (sic) brought to this continent as slaves do not.

Not a germane comparison, but even if it were, "we haven't helped former slaves enough, so we shouldn't help Native Americans" is not exactly persuasive logic. The central point you don't seem to understand is that the tribes had territory here which was acknowledged by the U.S. government by legitimate treaties which have never been repudiated. Your comparison is nonsense.
posted by spiderwire at 12:13 PM on December 20, 2007 [11 favorites]

I used the word "indigenous" around her once, and she balked; I think she found it too clinical sounding.

Yeah, kinda like I might balk if you called me an "indigenous European." The phrase tacitly raises the question, "indigenous compared to what?"
posted by spiderwire at 12:19 PM on December 20, 2007

What they want and what they hope to gain are two different things. I don't know what they really want, but it seems clear that their hope is to become an issue in the presidential campaigns, and get people talking and making promises.
posted by JWright at 12:28 PM on December 20, 2007

Who owns the land: Conquest has, at least in the west, long been recognized as a legitimate way to bring about dominion over a realm. Look at how well that worked out in the long history of the Brittish Isles and France. For example, William of Orange. It's only recently that we've gotten all touchy-feely about it.

Not true from a number of angles. Again, the key opinion here is Johnson v. M'intosh, which waaay back in 1823 specifically repudiated the conquest rationale and linked that repudiation to the immorality of European conquests. This is not in any respect a "recent" development, as even a cursory reading the opinion makes clear -- Marshall reveals in no uncertain terms that the entire deal was highly suspect.

Johnson establishes very solidly that the tribes have an alienable right to their land that can only be ceded to the U.S. as a co-sovereign nation. Therefore, if the tribes either did not cede their land (as in some treaties) or the U.S. violated those treaties (as in essentially every case), then there is a solid argument that under basic Constitutional and international-law principles, they have a right to reclaim that land under their sovereign authority.
posted by spiderwire at 12:32 PM on December 20, 2007

I agree that Indian tribes wanting sovereignty from the U.S. is a lot different from the South seceding in the Civil War or wacko white supremacists wanting to secede. Really, it should be their right. Good for the Lakota. I'm sure it will be difficult but I hope they find a way to succeed.

I guess I don't know a lot about things like this but I don't really see any glaring reason why we couldn't let a friendly secession take place, trade with them, visit, etc.
posted by Jess the Mess at 12:48 PM on December 20, 2007

Ontario returning Ipperwash to native community
posted by stinkycheese at 1:02 PM on December 20, 2007

I don't really see any glaring reason why we couldn't let a friendly secession take place, trade with them, visit, etc.

I'll plagiarize and re-phrase one of my own posts ...

Rah-rah secessionists and "it won't be a catastrophe" observers often miss the trees for the forest. Secession creates a brand-new sovereign nation, with all the rights that it entails.

Two minutes of brainstorming raises all sorts of sticky situations ... the new nation would be able to ...

* Print money
* Raise an army
* Enter into treaties and trade agreements
* Dump toxic waste
* Change its intellectual property laws
* Start new social services that attract people to the new nation
* Dismantle old social services that drives refugees to the old nation
* Close its borders
* Open its borders
* Go nuclear

All of which have serious implications for its neighbors.

And oh yeah ... the old nation can do all of the above, and in direct opposition to the newly formed nation!

Imagine the Lakota secede ... and the United States favors a different, third country in a trade deal that costs the Lakota billions in Lakotan dollars. Now what do the Lakota do?

Secession wouldn't necessarily be a catastrophe, in that militants wouldn't take to the streets (or would they?). But the economic and personal shocks would be enormous and potentially catastrophic in their own special ways, some of which we can't begin to imagine.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:09 PM on December 20, 2007

Of course it's bloody theatre. And, what else can they do?

Suppose you are committed to maintaining the memory of your ancestors, and the days when you had your tradition, your language, your sovereignty and your pride. Armed resistance is futile. Astute use of political theatre is effective.

Eg, look at this thread and the length of it. For a brief while, more people are thinking about the Lakota, and some of them will be sympathetic, and maybe the activists can build on that notice to get more resources to achieve something concrete.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:18 PM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Cool Papa Bell all that is true but it pre-supposes that the conditions of US hegemonic status remain constant where they are now. Which they will not.

If current trends in demographics and economics hold there will come a day (and relatively soon historically speaking) where it WILL make perfect sense for the republic to split up. Like I said, literally, the center can not hold.

Who ever is on the bleeding edge of that split will of course receive the brunt of some bad business to be sure. And it may not work out all that well. But it is likely to happen eventually if things continue in this perfect storm of a death spiral for the US.

In the 2100's I see the North east coast split off and form with a kind EU affiliation. I see the West Coast split off and go with some sort of Pacific Rim Federation. And I see the midwest and most of the Southbleed out thier brain trust to the coasts then trend to be some Taliban-ish version of the US and then die a slow agonizing death.

That is if current trends continue.
posted by tkchrist at 1:19 PM on December 20, 2007

We fought a war over this, remember?

yes, pastabagel, we did

that was before the 6 o'clock news, before roadside and suicide bombs and 5th generation warfare, before the internet and cell-phone video, and before the idea that war casualties are something that is repugnant enough to the people that they would threaten to vote out any government that caused them here at home

it's simple enough - no one's seceded from the u s because no region has felt strongly enough about it to do so

if a region ever does, it will be a success because the american people don't have the stomach to see a bitter, bloody war fought on their own soil - the first time children are casualties, you will hear a massive uproar demanding an end to the suppression of the revolt

the lakota don't have much chance of success because of lack of numbers - the government will probably ignore it and pick off the most blatant violators of various laws, one by one

this doesn't make them crazy or stupid - it just makes them desperate - they've actually been pushed to the wall so hard they think this is their last chance

--------------

I think it's more likely that the Lakota will have another visit from the 7th Cavalry than be allowed to secede completely, to be quite blunt.

as i recall, the 7th cavalry had one hell of a lot of trouble with them before they won

and interestingly enough, the lakota STILL don't seem to think the black hills war is really over
posted by pyramid termite at 1:20 PM on December 20, 2007

Rah-rah secessionists and "it won't be a catastrophe" observers often miss the trees for the forest. Secession creates a brand-new sovereign nation, with all the rights that it entails.

You're missing the point -- they already are a sovereign nation; the catastrophe is that the U.S. has never had a coherent policy toward the tribal governments that's lasted more than ten years, let alone made even a token effort to help out the supposed "wards."

Print money - Anyone can print money, you just can't counterfeit it. Who gives a shit if it's worthless?
Raise an army
Enter into treaties and trade agreements
Dump toxic waste
Change its intellectual property laws - So?
Start new social services that attract people to the new nation - With all that money they print
Dismantle old social services that drives refugees to the old nation - Yeah, all those social services that are so well-funded now
Close its borders
Open its borders
Go nuclear - With their vast scientific and technical resources

All of which have serious implications for its neighbors.

And oh yeah ... the old nation can do all of the above, and in direct opposition to the newly formed nation!

Just like we're planning to invade Haiti next summer

Imagine the Lakota secede ... and the United States favors a different, third country in a trade deal that costs the Lakota billions in Lakotan dollars. Now what do the Lakota do?

Exactly what they're doing now, except now they don't even have the authority to negotiate a trade deal in the first place

Secession wouldn't necessarily be a catastrophe, in that militants wouldn't take to the streets (or would they?).

Yes with their vast army

But the economic and personal shocks would be enormous and potentially catastrophic in their own special ways, some of which we can't begin to imagine.

Sorta like... U.S. tribal policy for the last two centuries
posted by spiderwire at 1:25 PM on December 20, 2007

And I see the midwest and most of the Southbleed out thier brain trust to the coasts then trend to be some Taliban-ish version of the US and then die a slow agonizing death.

from what? lack of food? water? canceled subscriptions to the new yorker? no more season tickets to the opera houses? a sushi shortage?
posted by pyramid termite at 1:27 PM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

and interestingly enough, the lakota STILL don't seem to think the black hills war is really over

Yeah, what a bunch of sore losers. They should just take the $3/4 billion in blood money that's been offered them and is still on the table, but instead they have the gall to stand on principle. But it's not like they need the money or anything.
posted by spiderwire at 1:28 PM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

from what? lack of food? water? canceled subscriptions to the new yorker? no more season tickets to the opera houses? a sushi shortage?

Stupidity.
posted by tkchrist at 1:29 PM on December 20, 2007

from what? lack of food? water? canceled subscriptions to the new yorker? no more season tickets to the opera houses? a sushi shortage?

critical lack of strawmen
posted by sp