No sushi for Jew!
February 13, 2008 7:30 AM Subscribe
"Today there is no eggroll..." As posted at jewschool, your best source for hip heeb hype,
Asian restaurants across [Israel]detante went on a one-day spring roll strike on Tuesday in protest over government plans to rid kitchens of foreign chefs, and said sushi and noodles would be the next items off the menu.
The restaurants are angry at the state’s plans to purge Japanese, Chinese and Thai eateries of Asian cooks and replace them with Israelis as part of a broader program to cut the number of foreigners working in Israel.
The Ethnic Restaurant Organization said the country’s 300 Asian restaurants refused to serve spring or egg rolls - among their most popular dishes - on Tuesday, and planned a follow-up strike in two weeks for sushi and noodles.
“Today there is no egg roll and in two weeks time there will be no sushi and noodles,” Arnon Volosky, head of the organization, told Reuters...
The government argues Israelis can be trained. “Everyone can make Chinese food it’s not impossible to learn,” said Shoshana Strauss, a lawyer working on foreign worker issues for the Ministry of Industry, Trade and Labor...Volosky said his organization had asked the Supreme Court to force the government to rethink the decision, arguing it could force many out of business or make them inflate prices to cover the salaries needed to secure “expert” visas for chefs.
It's too bad they can't follow the American example of Chinese-Jewish food detente.
Asian restaurants across [Israel]detante went on a one-day spring roll strike on Tuesday in protest over government plans to rid kitchens of foreign chefs, and said sushi and noodles would be the next items off the menu.
The restaurants are angry at the state’s plans to purge Japanese, Chinese and Thai eateries of Asian cooks and replace them with Israelis as part of a broader program to cut the number of foreigners working in Israel.
The Ethnic Restaurant Organization said the country’s 300 Asian restaurants refused to serve spring or egg rolls - among their most popular dishes - on Tuesday, and planned a follow-up strike in two weeks for sushi and noodles.
“Today there is no egg roll and in two weeks time there will be no sushi and noodles,” Arnon Volosky, head of the organization, told Reuters...
The government argues Israelis can be trained. “Everyone can make Chinese food it’s not impossible to learn,” said Shoshana Strauss, a lawyer working on foreign worker issues for the Ministry of Industry, Trade and Labor...Volosky said his organization had asked the Supreme Court to force the government to rethink the decision, arguing it could force many out of business or make them inflate prices to cover the salaries needed to secure “expert” visas for chefs.
It's too bad they can't follow the American example of Chinese-Jewish food detente.
And I forgot to add this to my examples of Chinese and Jews in recent food news.
posted by ericbop at 7:37 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by ericbop at 7:37 AM on February 13, 2008
M father used to take us out of Chinese food all the time. Almost obsessively, I would say. I still think he eats at the Village Wok every single day for lunch. He's just old school Jew like that.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:43 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:43 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
M father used to take us out of Chinese food all the time.
Woah - Hansel, Gretel and little Astro Zombie all getting stuffed into Chinese food. Good thing you left that trail of fortune cookie crumbs.
posted by GuyZero at 7:45 AM on February 13, 2008
Woah - Hansel, Gretel and little Astro Zombie all getting stuffed into Chinese food. Good thing you left that trail of fortune cookie crumbs.
posted by GuyZero at 7:45 AM on February 13, 2008
Nice post, ericbop. I never read a Harry Levine article that I didn't love so I'm really looking forward to this one.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:52 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:52 AM on February 13, 2008
Is there any information that would make me nod thoughtfully and say: "Oh, I see - yes, that makes sense now"?
posted by Jody Tresidder at 7:52 AM on February 13, 2008
My grandfather used to take us out for Chinese food all the time, too. He would say, "Let's go to the Chinaman."
Now I look back at those experiences and just think to myself, "Grandpa, that's not the preferred nomenclature."
posted by fusinski at 7:56 AM on February 13, 2008 [5 favorites]
Now I look back at those experiences and just think to myself, "Grandpa, that's not the preferred nomenclature."
posted by fusinski at 7:56 AM on February 13, 2008 [5 favorites]
Isn't part of the Jewish attraction to Chinese restaurants that you can go out to dinner there on Christmas day when everything else is closed for the holidays? My background is Irish-Catholic, but we've gone to Chinese restaurants on Christmas day for the same reason.
posted by jonp72 at 8:03 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by jonp72 at 8:03 AM on February 13, 2008
According to a recent news release, the UK curry industry could be facing a similar crisis. Please don't take my chicken tikka away!
posted by Jakey at 8:05 AM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by Jakey at 8:05 AM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
At least the Asian cooks will not be able to say that they do the work that Israelis won't do.
posted by Postroad at 8:05 AM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by Postroad at 8:05 AM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
More xenophobia from Israel. News at 11.
Don't get me wrong.. I understand why the Jewish nation-state exists. And in some ways, it's not entirely a bad thing; "Never Again" had a lot more meaning at Israel's inception than it does now, but it still resonates. As it should, of course.
But Israel has made the classic mistake of the Oppressed. They have become the Oppressor. Much as (on a vastly, vastly smaller and less damaging scale) it is repugnant when queer people refer to heterosexuals (and sometimes bisexuals) as 'breeders', it is repugnant for a nation born out of hatred and xenophobia to express the same emotions against another people.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 8:08 AM on February 13, 2008 [3 favorites]
Don't get me wrong.. I understand why the Jewish nation-state exists. And in some ways, it's not entirely a bad thing; "Never Again" had a lot more meaning at Israel's inception than it does now, but it still resonates. As it should, of course.
But Israel has made the classic mistake of the Oppressed. They have become the Oppressor. Much as (on a vastly, vastly smaller and less damaging scale) it is repugnant when queer people refer to heterosexuals (and sometimes bisexuals) as 'breeders', it is repugnant for a nation born out of hatred and xenophobia to express the same emotions against another people.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 8:08 AM on February 13, 2008 [3 favorites]
It may be repugnant, but it is tradition.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:12 AM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:12 AM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
I was worried that by posting this piece it would become derailed into a generic accusation about Israel's national character. Thanks for proving me right, dirtynumbangelboy.
posted by ericbop at 8:13 AM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by ericbop at 8:13 AM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
Well, it is rather the elephant in the room. Found your nation on a single ethnic/religious identity and this sort of thing goes with it.
posted by Artw at 8:17 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 8:17 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
a lot of Chinese food isn't Kosher anyway!
"Let's go to the Chinaman."
Coming soon on a A&F t-shirt
posted by matteo at 8:18 AM on February 13, 2008
"Let's go to the Chinaman."
Coming soon on a A&F t-shirt
posted by matteo at 8:18 AM on February 13, 2008
There used to be a Chinese/Jewish restaurant in Toronto called Ginsberg & Wong. It was terrible.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 8:18 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by Armitage Shanks at 8:18 AM on February 13, 2008
"Grandpa, that's not the preferred nomenclature."
It was always "The Chinky Nosh" when I was a kid.
posted by Artw at 8:19 AM on February 13, 2008
It was always "The Chinky Nosh" when I was a kid.
posted by Artw at 8:19 AM on February 13, 2008
But it is xenophobia. Why force out foreign workers? If Canada or Austria (or anywhere) issues some sort of policy saying all Asian chefs had to go it'd be discriminatory and xenophobic. There's nothing anti-Israeli about that.
It's not like Canadians look back at the Head Tax and say "that was a poor government policy". We look back and say that it was a shameful, racist period. You gotta call a spade a spade.
posted by GuyZero at 8:19 AM on February 13, 2008 [3 favorites]
It's not like Canadians look back at the Head Tax and say "that was a poor government policy". We look back and say that it was a shameful, racist period. You gotta call a spade a spade.
posted by GuyZero at 8:19 AM on February 13, 2008 [3 favorites]
I liked Ginberg & Wong. It wasn't no pickle barrel, but it was OK.
posted by GuyZero at 8:19 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by GuyZero at 8:19 AM on February 13, 2008
ericbop, don't be tiresome. Israel's xenophobic policies and actions are very well-documented. And while it is true that it is pretty much only the hard-right elements of Israeli society and politics that are enacting those policies, it's also true that those tend to be the people in power. It's not an attack on Israel to talk about facts, but that's kind of precisely the attitude that is so sad, and I see it in the gay community--and, for that matter, the conservative Evangelical right in the USA: "If you don't completely agree with us, you are therefore attacking us."
There is a vast gulf of difference, ericbop, between being anti-Israeli, and anti-bigotry. I am the latter, and it would behoove you to understand the difference.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 8:21 AM on February 13, 2008
There is a vast gulf of difference, ericbop, between being anti-Israeli, and anti-bigotry. I am the latter, and it would behoove you to understand the difference.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 8:21 AM on February 13, 2008
It may be repugnant, but it is tradition.
Dealing with foreign workers who are visible minorities is like being a fiddler... on the roof!
posted by GuyZero at 8:24 AM on February 13, 2008 [3 favorites]
Dealing with foreign workers who are visible minorities is like being a fiddler... on the roof!
posted by GuyZero at 8:24 AM on February 13, 2008 [3 favorites]
It's more like being a rocket scientist and telling those space aliens to fuck off back to Mongo.
posted by Artw at 8:25 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 8:25 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
From the OP: "your best source for hip heeb hype"
Isn't heeb right up there with nigger, spick, and mick in terms of offensiveness?
posted by Daddy-O at 8:34 AM on February 13, 2008
Isn't heeb right up there with nigger, spick, and mick in terms of offensiveness?
posted by Daddy-O at 8:34 AM on February 13, 2008
Isn't part of the Jewish attraction to Chinese restaurants that you can go out to dinner there on Christmas day when everything else is closed for the holidays? My background is Irish-Catholic, but we've gone to Chinese restaurants on Christmas day for the same reason.
I don't think that's a problem in Israel.
posted by delmoi at 8:35 AM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
I don't think that's a problem in Israel.
posted by delmoi at 8:35 AM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
Discussing Israel's national character isn't a derail, ericbop. It's a central point of your post.
posted by rocket88 at 8:38 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by rocket88 at 8:38 AM on February 13, 2008
Mild derail: Wow, assides from the two films already mentioned Topols carreer utterly sucked. Bang goes my chances for a running joke...
posted by Artw at 8:39 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by Artw at 8:39 AM on February 13, 2008
Huh, there was just a really interesting Forum segment yesterday about the Exclusion Laws in America. History may not repeat but it certainly rhymes.
posted by freebird at 8:40 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by freebird at 8:40 AM on February 13, 2008
Well, without Asian food they can't have Christmas.
[/kaplan]
posted by louche mustachio at 8:46 AM on February 13, 2008
[/kaplan]
posted by louche mustachio at 8:46 AM on February 13, 2008
on preview... DIDN'T YOUR MOTHER TELL YOU TO READ THE THREAD?
posted by louche mustachio at 8:49 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by louche mustachio at 8:49 AM on February 13, 2008
Topols carreer utterly sucked
Oooooohhhhhh...
/gets joke now
posted by GuyZero at 8:50 AM on February 13, 2008
Oooooohhhhhh...
/gets joke now
posted by GuyZero at 8:50 AM on February 13, 2008
Thai, Chinese, and to a lesser extent Japanese food in Israel seems to mean sauteed meat and veggies or noodles with either a fluorescent pink or yellow sugary sauce dumped on top.
Yikes. 70s style chinese food lives on!
posted by Artw at 8:51 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
Yikes. 70s style chinese food lives on!
posted by Artw at 8:51 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
This reminds me of the time that I ordered a pork dish at a Chinese restaurant outside of Tel Aviv.
I think that's the first time I had ever had anything "horror-flavored".
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 8:53 AM on February 13, 2008 [3 favorites]
I think that's the first time I had ever had anything "horror-flavored".
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 8:53 AM on February 13, 2008 [3 favorites]
It sounds like the usual "government will propose something to deal with the 'problem' of immigration". We hear that sort of nonsense in California regularly, if not all over the US.
However, the sublime pleasures of the cuisine at Pagoda in Tiberias and Yossi Peking in Jerusalem will transcend any of these issues for the average Israeli, I am sure.
Let's just say that Asian chefs figure prominently at these sorts of places.
Of course, there have been complaints from Chinese officials that the Chinese food in Israel is awful, so maybe that has something to do with it.
posted by Adamchik at 8:54 AM on February 13, 2008
However, the sublime pleasures of the cuisine at Pagoda in Tiberias and Yossi Peking in Jerusalem will transcend any of these issues for the average Israeli, I am sure.
Let's just say that Asian chefs figure prominently at these sorts of places.
Of course, there have been complaints from Chinese officials that the Chinese food in Israel is awful, so maybe that has something to do with it.
posted by Adamchik at 8:54 AM on February 13, 2008
Isn't heeb right up there with nigger, spick, and mick in terms of offensiveness?
It's sort of been reclaimed. I would have preferred we reclaim "Sheeny," which I find hilarious, but nobody ever listens to me about these fucking things.
Also, as a Jew who happens to also be an Irish-American, well, we call ourselves Micks all the time. Of course, that doesn't forgive the group of skinheads I used to live with who affectionately called me Mike McKike. I couldn't convince them that there was anything wrong with the nickname, and sometimes you just get exhausted arguing with skinheads, so I let it slide.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:56 AM on February 13, 2008 [3 favorites]
It's sort of been reclaimed. I would have preferred we reclaim "Sheeny," which I find hilarious, but nobody ever listens to me about these fucking things.
Also, as a Jew who happens to also be an Irish-American, well, we call ourselves Micks all the time. Of course, that doesn't forgive the group of skinheads I used to live with who affectionately called me Mike McKike. I couldn't convince them that there was anything wrong with the nickname, and sometimes you just get exhausted arguing with skinheads, so I let it slide.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:56 AM on February 13, 2008 [3 favorites]
The government argues Israelis can be trained.
“Everyone can make Chinese food it’s not impossible to learn,”
That's some pretty heavy denial regarding the link to immigration and cuisine.
If I ever move back to the UK I'm going to be lobby hard for the goverment to encourage as much immigration from Mexico as possible.
posted by Artw at 9:01 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
“Everyone can make Chinese food it’s not impossible to learn,”
That's some pretty heavy denial regarding the link to immigration and cuisine.
If I ever move back to the UK I'm going to be lobby hard for the goverment to encourage as much immigration from Mexico as possible.
posted by Artw at 9:01 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
Count me in on your Mexican immigration lobby, Artw. But it isn't just the UK. I've never had anything that even remotely resembled decent Mexican food anywhere in Europe. The UK might even be better than most places?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:12 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:12 AM on February 13, 2008
Huh, okay then.
Hey, Bagel World? Yeah, sorry, the Jews in the kitchen have to go. I'm sure some Canadians from Timmins can do the job just as well.
In other words, this is bloody ridiculous.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:19 AM on February 13, 2008
Hey, Bagel World? Yeah, sorry, the Jews in the kitchen have to go. I'm sure some Canadians from Timmins can do the job just as well.
In other words, this is bloody ridiculous.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:19 AM on February 13, 2008
Daddy-O: "Isn't heeb right up there with nigger, spick, and mick in terms of offensiveness?"
I think it's one of those 'reclaimed' words; you can use it self-referentially if you're Jewish, but if you're not, stay away.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:28 AM on February 13, 2008
I think it's one of those 'reclaimed' words; you can use it self-referentially if you're Jewish, but if you're not, stay away.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:28 AM on February 13, 2008
Tangent: When I was a kid growing up in the '70's in San Antonio, TX, there were very few Chinese restaurants. Today, of course, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting one. But then a trip to a Chinese restaurant was a rare and exotic treat. My best friend and I were going somewhere and we drove past a Chinese restaurant, the Golden Wok. "Mom", he asked, "what's a wok?" Without missing a beat, she said "It's what you fwo at a wabbit." I wish I was as quick as she was.
posted by Daddy-O at 9:38 AM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by Daddy-O at 9:38 AM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
Hard to imagine this (interesting) post not leading to a discussion of xenophobia, ericbop. What were you hoping for?
Also, great title.
posted by Pantengliopoli at 9:43 AM on February 13, 2008
Also, great title.
posted by Pantengliopoli at 9:43 AM on February 13, 2008
So you would say that it's not the preferred nomenclature?
posted by Artw at 9:50 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by Artw at 9:50 AM on February 13, 2008
Somebody please publish a list of preferred nomenclature.
posted by rocket88 at 9:54 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by rocket88 at 9:54 AM on February 13, 2008
Yeah, sorry, the Jews in the kitchen have to go. I'm sure some Canadians from Timmins can do the job just as well.
And, let me point out, having eaten a lot of bagels in this city, most taste like they were made by people from Timmins. It's not a kaiser roll with a hole, people.
On the other hand, St Urbain bagels, which are probably as good as it gets around here, doesn't seem like it's staffed by Jewish people. But I could be wrong.
Also, from the awful chinese food article:
"She also said it was ridiculous to demand that Chinese tourists put down USD 3,000 as a guarantee they will leave the country at the end of their visit. "
Chinese people have to pay a bond to visit Israel? WTF? Israel has got to be the least likely place for a chinese person to want to defect/illegally immigrate. Well, maybe after Nigeria. But really. I though the days of the Yellow Menace were over.
posted by GuyZero at 9:57 AM on February 13, 2008
And, let me point out, having eaten a lot of bagels in this city, most taste like they were made by people from Timmins. It's not a kaiser roll with a hole, people.
On the other hand, St Urbain bagels, which are probably as good as it gets around here, doesn't seem like it's staffed by Jewish people. But I could be wrong.
Also, from the awful chinese food article:
"She also said it was ridiculous to demand that Chinese tourists put down USD 3,000 as a guarantee they will leave the country at the end of their visit. "
Chinese people have to pay a bond to visit Israel? WTF? Israel has got to be the least likely place for a chinese person to want to defect/illegally immigrate. Well, maybe after Nigeria. But really. I though the days of the Yellow Menace were over.
posted by GuyZero at 9:57 AM on February 13, 2008
I've never had anything that even remotely resembled decent Mexican food anywhere in Europe.
I suppose Mexicans migrate mostly to the US, I may be wrong but I don't think there are major Mexican immigrant communities in Europe
posted by matteo at 9:57 AM on February 13, 2008
I suppose Mexicans migrate mostly to the US, I may be wrong but I don't think there are major Mexican immigrant communities in Europe
posted by matteo at 9:57 AM on February 13, 2008
Who would have expected that Dirty Numb Bagel Boy would have such negative feelings aout Israel?
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:59 AM on February 13, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:59 AM on February 13, 2008 [3 favorites]
Ew. A dirty numb bagel sounds like something really rude.
posted by Artw at 10:20 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by Artw at 10:20 AM on February 13, 2008
Well, I thought it was Dirty Numb Bangel Boy for most of my first year at MeFi, and I have no clue what the hell that could've been. At least Bagel sort of makes sense.
posted by Phire at 10:28 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by Phire at 10:28 AM on February 13, 2008
I was worried that by posting this piece it would become derailed into a generic accusation about Israel's national character. Thanks for proving me right, dirtynumbangelboy.
So...we were supposed to discuss egg-rolls? Not the strike? Not the reason for the strike? Touchy, touchy!
posted by The Light Fantastic at 10:30 AM on February 13, 2008
So...we were supposed to discuss egg-rolls? Not the strike? Not the reason for the strike? Touchy, touchy!
posted by The Light Fantastic at 10:30 AM on February 13, 2008
So...we were supposed to discuss egg-rolls? Not the strike? Not the reason for the strike? Touchy, touchy!
Totally agree.
Just ONE vaguely sensible - or even "it's not that brilliant, but there you have it" justification would help here.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 10:38 AM on February 13, 2008
Totally agree.
Just ONE vaguely sensible - or even "it's not that brilliant, but there you have it" justification would help here.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 10:38 AM on February 13, 2008
I think my problem with dnbb's comment was not his (fairly obvious) observation of the xenophobic nature of this event, but rather his categorization of it as emblematic of the Israel's national character, rather than a somewhat quirky (if repugnant) anti-immigration story, which as dnbb pointed out is present in the right-wing ideologies of many nations. In other words, Zionism does not equal racism, no matter how many eggrolls are withheld in rightful protest of one particular policy position.
posted by ericbop at 10:49 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by ericbop at 10:49 AM on February 13, 2008
Hey people, look on the bright side, at least Israel isn't assassinating Chinese chefs!
posted by fuq at 10:58 AM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by fuq at 10:58 AM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
"but rather his categorization of it as emblematic of the Israel's national character, rather than a somewhat quirky (if repugnant) anti-immigration story.."
Nice use of "quirky" to detract from "if repugnant", ericbop.
Like using a lace handkerchief to blow a disgustingly snotty nose:)
I get your quirkily touchy point, I guess.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 11:08 AM on February 13, 2008
Nice use of "quirky" to detract from "if repugnant", ericbop.
Like using a lace handkerchief to blow a disgustingly snotty nose:)
I get your quirkily touchy point, I guess.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 11:08 AM on February 13, 2008
Hey people, look on the bright side, at least Israel isn't assassinating Chinese chefs!
Is that an oblique reference to this film, perchance?
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:16 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
Is that an oblique reference to this film, perchance?
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:16 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
Just as a quick (racially harmonious) aside, Nussbaum & Wu bakery makes the best black & white cookie on the East Coast.
posted by ericbop at 11:30 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by ericbop at 11:30 AM on February 13, 2008
Thai, Chinese, and to a lesser extent Japanese food in Israel seems to mean sauteed meat and veggies or noodles with either a fluorescent pink or yellow sugary sauce dumped on top.
That was the case 10 years ago but now there is some great Asian food in and around Tel Aviv. You can actually get good sushi now, good thai food, even Korean. There are still a lot of bad Chinese restaurants but there are some newer ones that are good.
The problem with guest workers in Israel is that, like guest workers in other countries, they might actually... stay. And since Israel is built as a state bound by a particular religious/ethnic makeup, this represents a problem to the "demography issue". Right now it's a drop in the bucket, but ever since the second intifada when you first started to see (a very strange sight) Vietnamese people picking vegetables in the fields, the amount of guest workers has been going up, and up. Add to that the Russians, many of whom who aren't particularly Jewish, the 20% arab population, the growing populations in the West Bank (still under Israeli occupation) and you have what amounts to a potentially major issue for a state built on the idea that it's a homeland for one particular group.
posted by cell divide at 11:34 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
That was the case 10 years ago but now there is some great Asian food in and around Tel Aviv. You can actually get good sushi now, good thai food, even Korean. There are still a lot of bad Chinese restaurants but there are some newer ones that are good.
The problem with guest workers in Israel is that, like guest workers in other countries, they might actually... stay. And since Israel is built as a state bound by a particular religious/ethnic makeup, this represents a problem to the "demography issue". Right now it's a drop in the bucket, but ever since the second intifada when you first started to see (a very strange sight) Vietnamese people picking vegetables in the fields, the amount of guest workers has been going up, and up. Add to that the Russians, many of whom who aren't particularly Jewish, the 20% arab population, the growing populations in the West Bank (still under Israeli occupation) and you have what amounts to a potentially major issue for a state built on the idea that it's a homeland for one particular group.
posted by cell divide at 11:34 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
you have what amounts to a potentially major issue for a state built on the idea that it's a homeland for one particular group.
The British managed to get over it in Canada as did the French to a lesser extent.
If your logic is that it's hard not being a bigot, I don't really have a lot of sympathy. Times change.
posted by GuyZero at 11:37 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
The British managed to get over it in Canada as did the French to a lesser extent.
If your logic is that it's hard not being a bigot, I don't really have a lot of sympathy. Times change.
posted by GuyZero at 11:37 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
but rather his categorization of it as emblematic of the Israel's national character
*sigh*
Fine. It's emblematic of the character of the people who hold power in Israel, and the people who vote them in. Does that soothe your ruffled feathers? Would you actually like to address what I said, or would you prefer to say things like 'quirky' to describe blatant bigotry?
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:39 AM on February 13, 2008
*sigh*
Fine. It's emblematic of the character of the people who hold power in Israel, and the people who vote them in. Does that soothe your ruffled feathers? Would you actually like to address what I said, or would you prefer to say things like 'quirky' to describe blatant bigotry?
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:39 AM on February 13, 2008
It's not my logic, it's the logic of the state.
posted by cell divide at 11:39 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by cell divide at 11:39 AM on February 13, 2008
In other words, Zionism does not equal racism
Oh, and I never said that Zionism equals racism, but thanks for putting words in my mouth! Saves me the trouble of actually saying what I mean, which isn't at all what you're saying that I'm saying.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:40 AM on February 13, 2008
Oh, and I never said that Zionism equals racism, but thanks for putting words in my mouth! Saves me the trouble of actually saying what I mean, which isn't at all what you're saying that I'm saying.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:40 AM on February 13, 2008
It's not my logic, it's the logic of the state.
OK.
I have little sympathy for those who set Israel state policy and who believe they can maintain the racial profile of Israel circa 1955 forever.
posted by GuyZero at 11:47 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
OK.
I have little sympathy for those who set Israel state policy and who believe they can maintain the racial profile of Israel circa 1955 forever.
posted by GuyZero at 11:47 AM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
Israeli's are many things. They are prickly like the dessert cactus they take their name from. They are garrulous, quarrelsome, and tough-talking. They drive like maniacs. They have a weird passion for 12-string guitars and strangely twee folk songs. They're irritable and unexpectedly sentimental. And all of them, Topol included, could kick ass.
But they are never quirky.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:47 AM on February 13, 2008
But they are never quirky.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:47 AM on February 13, 2008
They are also fond of baker's apostrophes.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:47 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:47 AM on February 13, 2008
Agreed. Israelis ("Israeli's"?) are not quirky - but egg roll strikes are.
posted by ericbop at 11:54 AM on February 13, 2008
posted by ericbop at 11:54 AM on February 13, 2008
Just to be clear - when I protest (alongside countless other Jews and Gentiles) the Chinese repopulation of Tibet, which completely obliterates the original ethnic homeland of the Tibetan exiles, does that make me a bigot, too?
posted by ericbop at 12:09 PM on February 13, 2008
posted by ericbop at 12:09 PM on February 13, 2008
ericbop, I'm not really sure where you're coming from, here. The analogy to what you're saying would actually refer to the Palestinian people who were displaced when the modern state of Israel was created over half a century ago.
I would like to ask you, politely, to actually respond to what I'm saying. That would be as opposed to what you're currently doing, which is putting words in my mouth and building ridiculous strawmen.
Here's the thing, you see: the Chinese push to populate Tibet with ethnic Chinese is about obliterating the local population, as you point out, in what I think is only a way for the Chinese government to attempt to legitimize their annexation of the country.
Foreign-born cooks in Israeli restaurants is merely the free market at work. There is no hidden or ulterior motive.
Do you see the difference? Again, please try and respond to what I'm actually saying. If you prefer to continue on putting words in my mouth, I have a distinct lack of interest in pursuing this conversation any further.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 12:23 PM on February 13, 2008
I would like to ask you, politely, to actually respond to what I'm saying. That would be as opposed to what you're currently doing, which is putting words in my mouth and building ridiculous strawmen.
Here's the thing, you see: the Chinese push to populate Tibet with ethnic Chinese is about obliterating the local population, as you point out, in what I think is only a way for the Chinese government to attempt to legitimize their annexation of the country.
Foreign-born cooks in Israeli restaurants is merely the free market at work. There is no hidden or ulterior motive.
Do you see the difference? Again, please try and respond to what I'm actually saying. If you prefer to continue on putting words in my mouth, I have a distinct lack of interest in pursuing this conversation any further.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 12:23 PM on February 13, 2008
dnbb, I apologize if you continue to feel that I'm putting words into your mouth. I'm simultaneously trying to address points raised by others in this thread, so perhaps you thought that some of my responses towards others were directed at you.
It saddens me a little that as a very left-leaning zionist, who is willing to see Israel give up half of Jerusalem, bulldoze illegal westbank settlements and withdraw to pre-1967 borders so they can live in peace with their Palestinian neighbors, I still can't come to a point of mutual understanding with you on this topic. let's just agree to disagree and end this conversation now, OK?
posted by ericbop at 1:06 PM on February 13, 2008
It saddens me a little that as a very left-leaning zionist, who is willing to see Israel give up half of Jerusalem, bulldoze illegal westbank settlements and withdraw to pre-1967 borders so they can live in peace with their Palestinian neighbors, I still can't come to a point of mutual understanding with you on this topic. let's just agree to disagree and end this conversation now, OK?
posted by ericbop at 1:06 PM on February 13, 2008
Well, ericbop, when your very first response to me involved directly putting words into my mouth, that kind of gave me some problems. There isn't so much that we can agree to disagree on when you behave like that.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:18 PM on February 13, 2008
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:18 PM on February 13, 2008
"And since Israel is built as a state bound by a particular religious/ethnic makeup, this represents a problem to the "demography issue". ...you have what amounts to a potentially major issue for a state built on the idea that it's a homeland for one particular group."
And this, to me, is the elephant in the living room. Israel touts of itself (quite loudly) as the "only democracy in the middle east," but generally neglects to mention that it is using every trick in the book to maintain a Jewish majority of voters. It's gerrymandering on a national scale, and it undermines pretty much any moral arguments that it can make on its own behalf.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:39 PM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
And this, to me, is the elephant in the living room. Israel touts of itself (quite loudly) as the "only democracy in the middle east," but generally neglects to mention that it is using every trick in the book to maintain a Jewish majority of voters. It's gerrymandering on a national scale, and it undermines pretty much any moral arguments that it can make on its own behalf.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:39 PM on February 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
Seinfeld...four?
First they came for the Egg rolls, but I don’t like hot mustard so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Sushi and the egg noodles but, what? I was having the Sweet and sour pork, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the buffet, but I was not part of the lunch crowd so I did not speak out. And when I saw the fly in my Won Ton soup, there was no waiter left to complain to.
posted by HVAC Guerilla at 1:43 PM on February 13, 2008 [3 favorites]
First they came for the Egg rolls, but I don’t like hot mustard so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Sushi and the egg noodles but, what? I was having the Sweet and sour pork, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the buffet, but I was not part of the lunch crowd so I did not speak out. And when I saw the fly in my Won Ton soup, there was no waiter left to complain to.
posted by HVAC Guerilla at 1:43 PM on February 13, 2008 [3 favorites]
Zionism does not equal racism
Tribalism is racism's scruffy cousin.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 2:03 PM on February 13, 2008 [5 favorites]
Tribalism is racism's scruffy cousin.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 2:03 PM on February 13, 2008 [5 favorites]
Of course, that doesn't forgive the group of skinheads I used to live with who affectionately called me Mike McKike.
So, you just cannot let a line like that go by without at least asking for some backstory!
posted by lattiboy at 2:53 PM on February 13, 2008
So, you just cannot let a line like that go by without at least asking for some backstory!
posted by lattiboy at 2:53 PM on February 13, 2008
Um, I know that this discussion is meant to be humorous, and far be it for me to prove the humorless one, but mentions of "chinaman" are in poor taste and I don't really find it funny so much as tiresome.
Ah, jokes in poor taste. Definitely the chink in our armor.
posted by erskelyne at 4:09 PM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
Ah, jokes in poor taste. Definitely the chink in our armor.
posted by erskelyne at 4:09 PM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
Zionism does not equal racism
And Zionism does not equal Israeli state actions either, which are the subject of conversation here, and are frequently very tribal, racist, and oppressive.
As a gentile, this is very tricky ground for me, but I'll start here. I agree that the Jewish population - as a culture more than as a religion - needs to have a homeland. There needs to be someplace on this earth where such a large group of people, with a history of violent and disgusting oppression against them, can finally rule themselves. This goes without saying to me. I don't know if simply believing in that is enough to make me a Zionist, per se, but I doubt it.
This policy isn't about the state of Palestine, however, which drudges up too much of a quagmire to really be addressed here without a massive derailment. So we'll leave that to the side, except to say that state-sponsored racism and oppression with a purpose is still racism and oppression, and is, as has been said above, a trouble that's going to be inherent in a society built around maintaining adherence to one religion (or even just culture, as can be seen in the "Muslim problem" in secular France, another country which I often disagree with, but who's continued existence I nonetheless remain in favor of.)
But this isn't about those particular sticky wickets - this is about booting out an almost statistically insignificant number of Chinese people, who came to Israel specifically to make food for the Jewish population which is turns out that population enjoys a great deal. There is no chance that the presence of these immigrants will damage the national character of Israel or the opportunity for self-rule, particularly as a Jewish culture is highly unlikely to assimilate them in any real way, and the fact that there's a market cap on how many Chinese cooks could logically carve out a decent living there. Thus, the idea of forcing them out to be replaced by Israeli cooks is paranoid, nationalist, and smacks of, while not necessarily hateful racism, certainly institutional racism. While the strike is certainly "quirky," I guess, to our eyes, it is also about the only thing, and the most powerful thing, that these cooks can do.
My favorite part of the article was where the Israeli official said something about how cooking Chinese food can't be that hard. I've never been to Israel to sample the Chinese cuisine, which according to these comments is pretty awful but getting better, and so I don't know if Israeli's prefer Cantonese or Szechuan, but I do know that Szechuan cuisine is the most notoriously complex and difficult cuisine in the world to master.
Maybe it'd just be best to let them stay.
All that said, I loved the post, ericbop.
posted by Navelgazer at 4:14 PM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
And Zionism does not equal Israeli state actions either, which are the subject of conversation here, and are frequently very tribal, racist, and oppressive.
As a gentile, this is very tricky ground for me, but I'll start here. I agree that the Jewish population - as a culture more than as a religion - needs to have a homeland. There needs to be someplace on this earth where such a large group of people, with a history of violent and disgusting oppression against them, can finally rule themselves. This goes without saying to me. I don't know if simply believing in that is enough to make me a Zionist, per se, but I doubt it.
This policy isn't about the state of Palestine, however, which drudges up too much of a quagmire to really be addressed here without a massive derailment. So we'll leave that to the side, except to say that state-sponsored racism and oppression with a purpose is still racism and oppression, and is, as has been said above, a trouble that's going to be inherent in a society built around maintaining adherence to one religion (or even just culture, as can be seen in the "Muslim problem" in secular France, another country which I often disagree with, but who's continued existence I nonetheless remain in favor of.)
But this isn't about those particular sticky wickets - this is about booting out an almost statistically insignificant number of Chinese people, who came to Israel specifically to make food for the Jewish population which is turns out that population enjoys a great deal. There is no chance that the presence of these immigrants will damage the national character of Israel or the opportunity for self-rule, particularly as a Jewish culture is highly unlikely to assimilate them in any real way, and the fact that there's a market cap on how many Chinese cooks could logically carve out a decent living there. Thus, the idea of forcing them out to be replaced by Israeli cooks is paranoid, nationalist, and smacks of, while not necessarily hateful racism, certainly institutional racism. While the strike is certainly "quirky," I guess, to our eyes, it is also about the only thing, and the most powerful thing, that these cooks can do.
My favorite part of the article was where the Israeli official said something about how cooking Chinese food can't be that hard. I've never been to Israel to sample the Chinese cuisine, which according to these comments is pretty awful but getting better, and so I don't know if Israeli's prefer Cantonese or Szechuan, but I do know that Szechuan cuisine is the most notoriously complex and difficult cuisine in the world to master.
Maybe it'd just be best to let them stay.
All that said, I loved the post, ericbop.
posted by Navelgazer at 4:14 PM on February 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
thanks, Navelgazer. and I absolutely agree that the Israeli actions in this instance are 100% wrong. it's only when people start extrapolating from this instance that the country as a whole doesn't have a right to exist that I begin having my "feathers ruffled."
posted by ericbop at 4:21 PM on February 13, 2008
posted by ericbop at 4:21 PM on February 13, 2008
You're not exactly helping the thread stay on the topics you'd prefer by loudly shouting that we shouldn't discuss other things, it's kind of like saying "don't think of a rhinoceros". You know that, right?
posted by Artw at 4:34 PM on February 13, 2008
posted by Artw at 4:34 PM on February 13, 2008
Also: it's only when people start extrapolating from this instance that the country as a whole doesn't have a right to exist that I begin having my "feathers ruffled."
Seriously, what the fuck?
posted by Artw at 4:34 PM on February 13, 2008
Seriously, what the fuck?
posted by Artw at 4:34 PM on February 13, 2008
The restaurants are angry at the state’s plans to purge Japanese, Chinese and Thai eateries of Asian cooks and replace them with Israelis as part of a broader program to cut the number of foreigners working in Israel.
WTF Israel? Damn, but the more I learn about that country, the less I like it.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:41 PM on February 13, 2008
WTF Israel? Damn, but the more I learn about that country, the less I like it.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:41 PM on February 13, 2008
...there were very few Chinese restaurants. Today, of course, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting one...
[forgoes the obvious bad joke]
when people start extrapolating from this instance that the country as a whole doesn't have a right to exist that I begin having my "feathers ruffled."
WTF ericbop? Where in this thread does anyone suggest that Israel should not exist? Don't be an asshole, k?
posted by five fresh fish at 7:55 PM on February 13, 2008
[forgoes the obvious bad joke]
when people start extrapolating from this instance that the country as a whole doesn't have a right to exist that I begin having my "feathers ruffled."
WTF ericbop? Where in this thread does anyone suggest that Israel should not exist? Don't be an asshole, k?
posted by five fresh fish at 7:55 PM on February 13, 2008
when people start extrapolating from this instance that the country as a whole doesn't have a right to exist that I begin having my "feathers ruffled"
What the fuck, dude? Nobody in this thread has even come close to saying that.
I respectfully suggest that you not post on this subject again. You're clearly unable to read what people are actually writing. I suspect that the enormous chip on your shoulder is getting in the way.
And, by the way, before you go off again.. my family has Jewish roots, we lost (admittedly distant) relatives in the Shoah, and I can claim right of return to Israel.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 5:19 AM on February 14, 2008
What the fuck, dude? Nobody in this thread has even come close to saying that.
I respectfully suggest that you not post on this subject again. You're clearly unable to read what people are actually writing. I suspect that the enormous chip on your shoulder is getting in the way.
And, by the way, before you go off again.. my family has Jewish roots, we lost (admittedly distant) relatives in the Shoah, and I can claim right of return to Israel.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 5:19 AM on February 14, 2008
Nono, you're all misreading him. He said "when people start extrapolating from this instance that the country as a whole doesn't have a right to exist that I begin having my "feathers ruffled"". What he's saying is that his feathers aren't ruffled, since nobody has done that. It's just his fancy way of saying "Don't worry, nobody has said anything that ruffles my feathers, it's all copacetic".
posted by Bugbread at 3:58 PM on February 14, 2008
posted by Bugbread at 3:58 PM on February 14, 2008
bugbread, I suggest you re-read ericbop's comments throughout this thread. Your interpretation, while charitable, would seem to be flat-out wrong.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 7:25 AM on February 15, 2008
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 7:25 AM on February 15, 2008
I believe bugbread was making a... what's it called again?... a... joke? Yah, a joke. A sarcastic one.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:34 AM on February 15, 2008
posted by five fresh fish at 7:34 AM on February 15, 2008
Doh. I blame lack of coffee.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 8:25 AM on February 15, 2008
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 8:25 AM on February 15, 2008
« Older "Snoopy would be proud" | Michigan to build the country's first Maglev... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by fusinski at 7:34 AM on February 13, 2008