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July 6, 2008 1:56 PM   Subscribe

Jezebel.com editor on why she hasn't been raped: "I think it has to do with the fact that I'm like smart. I don't hang around with frat guys" -- a quote from Jezebelism: Lizz Winstead's interview with Moe Tkacik and Tracie Egan (aka Slut Machine). Winstead's intent was "to have a conversation about Hillary and sexism, women’s magazines and if they feel any obligation to write about responsibility and safety when they write graphically about their sex lives." After the interview Winstead stated: "I don’t know if they came to the show drunk, or just ended up drunk by the time they hit the stage, but what I do know is that the discussion that ensued was deeply disturbing to me..."

Selected clips from the interview 1: [video | 4:07] || 2: [ video | 5:54].

Full interview [video | 57:18] - scroll down to third embedded video.
posted by ericb (181 comments total) 19 users marked this as a favorite

 
From the second link:

"I put this video up to start a discussion, about sexuality, feminism, freedom, power and responsibility. I want those who read and admire their work to ask themselves how they feel about this, and those who are just hearing about them for the first time to do the same.."


It's too nice out for outragefilter, thanks!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:05 PM on July 6, 2008


Wow. I don't know what to say. Just .... wow.
posted by msalt at 2:06 PM on July 6, 2008


Maybe "Thinking and Drinking" isn't such a great concept for a show after all.
posted by msalt at 2:07 PM on July 6, 2008 [8 favorites]


Another of the Jezebel writers wrote a thoughtful, honest piece this week about her experience with sexual assault. Worthy of a read, if we're going down this road.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:08 PM on July 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


Wait, wait, I'm shocked.

You mean young self-absorbed bloggers (I assume you have to be self-absorbed to report to the world every lurid detail about your sex life) make sweeping generalizations, have superiority complexes ("I'm too smart to get raped. Now those slack-jawed Lurleans who listen to Country music, on the other hand...."), and act irresponsibly even when they're paid to speak?

I'm shocked, truly I am.

These bloggers need to be, oh god what's the fitting punishment???, they need to be disemvowelled.
posted by orthogonality at 2:09 PM on July 6, 2008 [11 favorites]


All I could figure out from this is that I fucking hate all of these people.
posted by jimmythefish at 2:11 PM on July 6, 2008 [12 favorites]


On one hand, I'm watching the clips and these girls sound like *idiots*. On the other hand, this is a show called "Thinking and Drinking", how much better can things get?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:11 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


This is the essence of 2008.
posted by gmm at 2:13 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


Having looked at their blogs, my baffled response is "someone pays them to write this tripe?" I'm clearly in the wrong business.
posted by orthogonality at 2:14 PM on July 6, 2008


"I'm like smart." I'm like if you're that smart you don't need to inject your conversation with meaningless similes.
posted by Oriole Adams at 2:16 PM on July 6, 2008 [3 favorites]


Moe: "I guess, I like, regret being date raped"

Moe: "It seems like in terms of bad sexual experiences, that you have, the worst ones are in, always seem to be in countries where sex is not accepted. That is the good thing about New York, I've never has any problems with anyone here."

Moe: "I guess third guy, I ever had sex with, date raped me, and I got very mad at him, but I wasn't gonna fucking like turn him in to the police and fucking go through shit..

Lizz interrupts: "Why not, you see that's the problem, why not, I am just curious?"

Moe: Because it was a load of trouble and I had better things to do, like drinking more." *
posted by ericb at 2:17 PM on July 6, 2008


if you're that smart you don't need to inject your conversation with meaningless similes

I'm, like, sure it's an ironic like, bragh.

Remember, kids: After a certain point you stop being cool and just end up with a big chunk of ice where your brain's supposed to be.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 2:22 PM on July 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


Appalling. As is the fact that, on the blog post, one commenter who opposed her decision and was, in fact, raped, was apparently silenced.
posted by tmcw at 2:23 PM on July 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


Oh c'mon. They're clearly just riffing -- being comical brats, saying purposely brash shit just to make people like Lizz Winstead get huffy. It's a Sarah Silverman act. You don't have to like it, but why all the outrage?
posted by TheWash at 2:23 PM on July 6, 2008 [3 favorites]


Why did you wish to give our attention to these 'tards, ericb?
posted by five fresh fish at 2:24 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


"I mean like, what's going to happen?"

"Well, you could get raped."

"Oh, yeah... but you live through that."
That's about where I stopped. Drunk girls are st00pid. News at 11.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 2:25 PM on July 6, 2008


Wow, I've been to a few Shoot the Messengers. Mark Crispin Miller, Rachel Maddow, Mo Rocca, all of them good stuff. Funny and informative (Miller was a little heavy, what with the detailed analysis of our voting mechanisms...)

These girls are painful to listen to. Good to those who hissed, I'd've walked out.
If I wanted to hear exclusively self-centered observations on the world, I could hang out at my neighborhood coffee shop, where one of these braniacs live.
posted by Busithoth at 2:26 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


TheWash writes "They're clearly just riffing -- being comical brats, saying purposely brash shit just to make people like Lizz Winstead get huffy. It's a Sarah Silverman act."

I love me some Sarah Silverman, but one Sarah Silverman is enough, thanks. And I wouldn't read Sarah Silverman's daily blog either.
posted by orthogonality at 2:26 PM on July 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


Oh, Jezebel is one of those black-holes-of-blogland-negativity Gawker sites. No wonder. Not that it's not worth calling out -- it is quite worth it, and I hope it happens more often.
posted by treepour at 2:29 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


on preview: don't hate the format. the booze didn't hurt anyone, and it can be REALLY REFRESHING to hear a well-informed person relax with a drink and talk like they're not on TV.
posted by Busithoth at 2:29 PM on July 6, 2008


It's a Sarah Silverman act. You don't have to like it, but why all the outrage?

I wonder the same thing, both for this specific situation (although I don't know enough about the venue to truly make that judgment) and in general. In our society, we let entertainers say anything and everything, but occasionaly they cross an imaginary gray line and then, OUTRAGE CITY. Like the Don Imus thing- I don't listen to him, but I can't imagine he hadn't said plenty of really offensive things before the whole "nappy headed ho" controversy. Why and how something moves from "no big deal" to "BIG FREAKIN' DEAL" is a mystery to me.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:30 PM on July 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


Huh? Didn't Jezebel.com used to be the blog of one of the Heathers or something? I thought it was a personal site for some female web trailblazer. When did Gawker get its filthy hands on it?
posted by dobbs at 2:30 PM on July 6, 2008


it can be REALLY REFRESHING to hear a well-informed person relax with a drink and talk like they're not on TV.

Where's the link to this? I can't find it.
posted by jimmythefish at 2:32 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


So this week I've unsubscribed from Boing Boing and Jezebel. Perhaps one of the Metafilter mods will do or say something ideologically repellent so I can further lighten up Google Reader and actually get some damn work done.
posted by bibliowench at 2:35 PM on July 6, 2008 [8 favorites]


Now I know why I hadn't heard of jezebel.com before.
posted by evenson at 2:36 PM on July 6, 2008


Where's the link to this? I can't find it.
posted by jimmythefish


here you go.

There's others in the archive, I've not watched them all, but when I get home from work I'm going to watch the Ed Shultz ones...
posted by Busithoth at 2:38 PM on July 6, 2008


Counterpoint from Tracie Egan's blog:
"Anyway, I thought this thing was supposed to be a comedy show, but to be honest, I didn't really do my research on how the interview was really gonna go. I tried to make some jokes, but they fell super flat. ("I don't get raped because I live in Williamsburg, and all the guys there are pussies.") It all seemed really horrible at the time, but now, looking back, I sort of have to laugh. I mean, to our friends, it was just Moe and Tracie being Moe and Tracie—drunk, irreverent, drunk. (The interview segment was called "Thinking and Drinking.") But to these 21-year-old college girls in the crowd, it was Moe and Tracie, letting them down. I mean, I honestly believe that I was making some good points about stuff here and there—uh, except for the part where I inadvertently called women who are date raped unintuitive—but it just got out of hand, and the discussion turned into Moe and Lizz talking about Moe's date rape, and I just mentally checked out, and poured myself another glass of wine. I actually found myself being bored, so I can only imagine how it was for people in the audience."
posted by The Michael The at 2:40 PM on July 6, 2008


Their work on Jezebel has made them role models for young women everywhere.

erch... they're boring me to tears. so desperately trying to be shocking, blunt, egotistical and yet just trying like any other scared writer who really wants to make something out of themselves. if only they had like something I don't know insightful to say or shit and didn't just depend on pure misguided style to make up for actual interpretation and insight. these are people who calls the waitress tutz and feel avant garde comics.

something not every other ditz on the corner kept blurting out after a vodka or two might be interesting for a change or something debbie harry hadn't said in 1976. at least putting a tamer version on teh webbernets in 2008 satisfies dentons lust for pageviews. I wonder if he cares about it being just a step above US weekly on the cutting edge scale. egan is kansas city pretending to be east village. she probably believes her hype.

talking to girls like that is why I drink.
posted by krautland at 2:49 PM on July 6, 2008


On the other hand, this is a show called "Thinking and Drinking", how much better can things get?

A simple substitution would work miracles. "Drinking and Thinking".
posted by ersatz at 2:52 PM on July 6, 2008


talking to girls like that is why I drink.

you mean because they'll have no fear of going home with you, and think the withdrawal method is an ok form of contraception?
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:53 PM on July 6, 2008


Wow look. Even feminists who drink sometimes get caught out saying stupid things. But by all means, because they're feminists, of course they deserve extra disgust because they should know better.

Actually not. I don't believe that at all. I believe, in fact, in cutting folks a break. Cut these folks a break. At least Tracie feels badly (see The Michael The's comment above) about it.

I think it's awesome to bounce up and down on folks hot buttons though, don't you, krautland? ("girls like that" indeed.)
posted by kalessin at 2:54 PM on July 6, 2008 [3 favorites]


The main reason these women bother me isn't their stupidity or carelessness or their implied disgust at women who've suffered as victims of rape, or even their galling sense of privilege and superiority. It's the fact that when something truly traumatic does happen to them they'll suddenly transform into the biggest and whiniest victims of all time, demanding exactly the consideration, caring and thoughtfulness they're so gleefully denying anyone now.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 2:55 PM on July 6, 2008 [13 favorites]


krautland writes "tutz"

"toots". Short for "tootsie".

As to the rest of your comment: yes, precisely. And "egan is kansas city pretending to be east village." Oh snap!
posted by orthogonality at 2:55 PM on July 6, 2008


Moe's actually a MeFi member, so maybe she'll pop in here soon to respond.
posted by Dr. Zira at 2:56 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


It's a Sarah Silverman act.

I'd really like to believe this is true. Help me to believe this is true. I'm having trouble believing this is true. I don't think this is true.
posted by waraw at 2:56 PM on July 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


Hmmm.... yeah, I think that what these girls don't get is that what works on a blog rarely works on an interview show. The whole snarky, snotty, tongue-in-cheek, not-take-anything-seriously thing. It's definitely a situation where the message is the medium. When you're reading a blog, especially a Gawker blog, you expect this sort of thing. However, in doing this interview, these girls switched to a completely different medium without changing their tone at all. And, surprise! They're getting flamed for it.

I mean, obviously, the host is a lot more serious than they are. And as for Tracie, I think her talents are far better suited to Pot Psychology than to Thinking and Drinking.
posted by Afroblanco at 2:58 PM on July 6, 2008 [5 favorites]


"I don't hang around with frat guys."

Or maybe we don't hang around with you. I second the "black hole of negativity Gawker trash" comment.
posted by tomorama at 2:59 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


I look forward to their future blog: Alcoholic Narcissists with Vibrators and Not a Fucking Clue.
posted by scody at 3:08 PM on July 6, 2008 [9 favorites]


I'm reminded of a friend of mine who always said that he would never get mugged because he "put out the right energy." I told him his attitude further victimized people who had been assaulted.

later that same night, in the waiting room of the hospital, where his broken collarbone was being treated, after a completely random act of violence in the east village, I found it just slightly harder than it should have been to feel sympathy for him.
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:11 PM on July 6, 2008


This is worthy of no attention.
posted by ikkyu2 at 3:13 PM on July 6, 2008 [8 favorites]


What a shitstorm.
posted by greta simone at 3:16 PM on July 6, 2008


wait wait wait.
I don't know if they came to the show drunk, or just ended up drunk by the time they hit the stage, but what I do know is that the discussion that ensued was deeply disturbing to me for a few reasons:
Hang on...
Tracie Egan, and Moe Tkacik, two writers from Jezebel.com were invited to appear on my show, Thinking and Drinking.
It sounds like the whole point of the show is to talk about things while drunk. People spout all kinds of stuff they wouldn't say sober when they're drunk. It's ridiculous to get someone hammered and then complain about what they say.
posted by delmoi at 3:20 PM on July 6, 2008


Huh? Didn't Jezebel.com used to be the blog of one of the Heathers or something? I thought it was a personal site for some female web trailblazer. When did Gawker get its filthy hands on it?

I thought it was started by Denton and his hired underlings, like Wonkette or Defamer, etc.
posted by delmoi at 3:24 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


Goddammit. I loved Jezebel -- especially Fine Lines, and Today in Catalogs (I never said I was highbrow...). I read Megan's essay on why her rapes are not a political issue, and why she chose not to prosecute in the past, and why she semi-regrets prosecuting now, and just reading about her, and her strength and weaknesses and the pain she went through was incredibly healing to me.

And now this shit. I'll check in tomorrow to see if Moe and Slut Machine got fired (my guess, no), and if they're still there, fare thee well Jezebel, because to act like this is so unbelievably fucking retarded I am not going to be able to get past it. Hurf durf drinking != an even halfway decent interview.
posted by kalimac at 3:26 PM on July 6, 2008


I look forward to their future blog: Alcoholic Narcissists with Vibrators and Not a Fucking Clue.

On behalf of Alcoholic Narcissists everywhere, I'd like to say we don't want to be associated with this buch. I don't have a vibrator, however, just an electric razor.
posted by jonmc at 3:27 PM on July 6, 2008 [3 favorites]


Jezebel is actually quite a good blog. Thanks for pointing me toward it.

Almost no one can really deal with rape, whether it's happened to them or a loved one; whether a family member, friend or celebrity may have committed it-- and most especially if they are responsible for investigating and prosecuting it.

Or whether they're merely trying to discuss it productively.
posted by jamjam at 3:28 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


They're just grabbing headlines ahead of the rollout of the next Gawker portal: lothario.com, a group blog for the hipster date-rapist set.
posted by felix betachat at 3:29 PM on July 6, 2008 [3 favorites]


It sounds like the whole point of ["Thinking And Drinking"] is to talk about things while drunk.

It is possible to drink without getting drunk. So I'm told.
posted by waraw at 3:30 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


They sound more like frat boys than a lot of frat boys I've known.
posted by The Straightener at 3:31 PM on July 6, 2008 [4 favorites]


The mediocre has-been Lizz Winstead drags two bloggers who trade in irony oversharing onto her little web tv show. She baits them into saying unpolitically correct things while plying them with wine. Then she castigates them for it on Huff Po, all in a pathetic attempt to revive a sagging career by styling herself as a Sandra Berhard-cum-Nancy Reagan scold, a Michael Moore for the pious reactionary middle-aged feminist set. Not to make light of rape, but Winstead's own best line is "I seem like a date rapist." A neat analogy. If writers were supposed to be "role models"—the phrase is a good indication that it's time to leave the room—we would be bereft of a national literature. Poe, Melville, Emily Dickinson, Edna St. Vincent Millay, Sylvia Plath, William Burroughs, Bellow, Roth. I wonder which of them used the withdrawal method? Casting bloggers as "role models" is only a little bit more preposterous.
posted by oldleada at 3:35 PM on July 6, 2008 [18 favorites]


Wow. Too cringe-worthy to watch all the way through. Moe and Tracie and probably my least favorite writers on Jezebel, but they really embarrassed themselves here. And Winstead didn't come off that great herself, she was extremely hostile. (Not without cause, those girls were being insufferably irritating.)

Still, it's a little over the top to say that they're role models letting down legions of young girls who all look up to them in rapt attention. Jezebel is all about the comments, and there is a lot of disagreement in the comments. The editors get criticized plenty. It's not like they've got some zombie mob of post-feminist hipster girls shuffling behind them in lockstep. Now there's a cringe-worthy image.
posted by Mr Bunnsy at 3:37 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


Drinking doesn't usually make people say things that they don't mean. It helps them to say things that they otherwise wouldn't. Their sense of what is and isn't appropriate for a particular is out of whack. That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't criticize what they say. The opinions held by Interview Moe and Tracie are the same ones held by Sober Moe and Tracie. They won't admit it because their sense of what's appropriate to say aloud has (presumably) returned. They are just as moronic, careless, and egotistical as they seem. Its just that they usually hide it better. How many other women put themselves into dangerous situations because of obviously wrong ideas (not in my city, I'm too smart, I don't hang around "those sort" of people etc)? People who say or imply that education and warnings about date rape and other forms of sexual assault are unnecessary (or that those who spout them should be dismissed) cannot possibly be taking into consideration how many women (and girls) act out dangerous behaviors and attitudes like Moe and Tracie.
posted by andythebean at 3:37 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


Wow, this brings up a whole host of feelings in me. I don't even know if I can organize them into anything coherent.

Despite all that, there is a point in the drunken ramblings, albeit muddled, about connecting "smartness" with not being date raped. It's certainly not guaranteed, it's not foolproof, nobody will give you your money back, but there are decisions one could make to lower the probability of such. Blame is not attached, but the idea that you could not lower your chances by applying thought of effort does nobody any good. "Smart" is probably not the correct word for this, but informed, educated, wise? Something in there. Yeah, avoiding skeezy guys you've never met before who insist on getting you yet another cup of punch is probably a decent way to avoid a room with a sticky mattress and a ten watt bulb. It's not everything, but it might be a start to avoid that particular situation.

Now, if nobody believes this, then by all means, cancel all rape education programs, since knowledge wouldn't help. Just throw up your hands and hope you are lucky. We're in such a hurry to avoid the merely political ramifications of "blaming the victim" that we're endangering potential victims by portraying date rape as this unavoidable Act of God that nothing you could possibly do would prevent.

Hell, get angry at me now for saying it: you can minimize (not eliminate) your chances of being date raped. If that's blaming the victim, curse me; I'd rather prefer someone loathe my words and one person avoid getting raped than sit quietly.
posted by adipocere at 3:40 PM on July 6, 2008 [9 favorites]


She baits them into saying unpolitically correct things while plying them with wine.

How old are they? 13?
posted by The Straightener at 3:42 PM on July 6, 2008


If writers were supposed to be "role models"—the phrase is a good indication that it's time to leave the room—we would be bereft of a national literature.

Too bad for Tracie and Moe that instead of being writers, they're merely typists with verbal diarrhea.
posted by scody at 3:43 PM on July 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


Aside, just wanted to note that drinking/drugs/being drunk/being high is the most fucking boring thing in the goddamned world to listen to/read about/whatever. I mean, who gives a shit? "Tee hee, I'm doing this and I'm drunk." Golly.
posted by maxwelton at 3:48 PM on July 6, 2008 [3 favorites]


Drinking doesn't usually make people say things that they don't mean. It helps them to say things that they otherwise wouldn't.

Whiskey don't make liars, it just makes fools. I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
posted by Science! at 3:48 PM on July 6, 2008


This video. It's, like, crying rape in a crowded porno theater. But then, like, actually getting raped. Or something.

What?

They sound more like frat boys than a lot of frat boys I've known.

That is what I was gonna say. Just insipidly awful. It coulda only get worse if they derailed into a conversation about how ugly, like, Adam Corolla is and stuff. I mean his teeth are so, like, B-I-G and shit.
posted by tkchrist at 3:49 PM on July 6, 2008


OMG, you guys, being drunk is so cool!

sigh.
posted by AV at 3:52 PM on July 6, 2008


Aside, just wanted to note that drinking/drugs/being drunk/being high is the most fucking boring thing in the goddamned world...

Samuel Taylor Coleridge.

Edgar Allen Poe.

Papa Hemingway

Jack Kerouac.

Hunter S. Thompson.

Ken Kesey.


Nah. Depends on whose getting fucked up and the story it makes them tell.
posted by tkchrist at 3:53 PM on July 6, 2008 [12 favorites]


Aside, just wanted to note that drinking/drugs/being drunk/being high is the most fucking boring thing in the goddamned world to listen to/read about/whatever.

No kidding! I thought Tracie's comment in the comment from The Michael The was a great comeback to all this madness - apologetic, honest- and then I clicked to through to her blog and read what came next:

Anyway, our friends were nice to us afterward, even if we got a lot of "Yikes!" cringe-y looks. They bought us shots and we decided that we would get as drunk as possible in order to forget this whole debacle.

Very disappointing- totally betrays any notion of taking responsibility, learning from one's mistakes, etc.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:57 PM on July 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


I watched the clips, but not the whole episode (man, what a painful 57 minutes that would be). They made themselves look pretty stupid, and I bet they were pretty embarrassed in the morning when they realized what they had said. But I can't get into the moral outrage element here.

Are they really role models? Well, yes, kind of. And what they are modeling is that it is ok to be a woman and stand up (well, slouch deep into the couch) and both admit to being a sexual person and say a bunch of really dumb things in public. Sure, I'd rather they modeled standing up there, discussing sex, and saying smart and interesting things.

But admitting to practicing less-than-ideally-safe-sex? Displaying how sometimes one can deal with the fear of sexual assault by pretending "it can't happen to me"? That's just honesty.

The dumb parts of what they said are being exposed and made fun of -- it's not like they were effective proponents of whatever their view was.

So yeah, laugh at them, but I wouldn't take it as emblematic of something bigger than itself.
posted by Forktine at 4:02 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


It coulda only get worse if they derailed into a conversation about how ugly, like, Adam Corolla is and stuff.

Compared to this crew, Adam Carolla is Oscar Wilde.
posted by jonmc at 4:03 PM on July 6, 2008 [4 favorites]


This is the Metafilter equivalent of one of those reddit posts about a cop tasering a baby where everyone gets all bent out of shape.
posted by fleetmouse at 4:04 PM on July 6, 2008 [4 favorites]


But admitting to practicing less-than-ideally-safe-sex? Displaying how sometimes one can deal with the fear of sexual assault by pretending "it can't happen to me"? That's just honesty.

True, I think that's a fair point in their defense.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:06 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


A COP TASERED A BABY! HOLY SHIT!
posted by tkchrist at 4:06 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


That baby totally deserved it.
posted by puke & cry at 4:09 PM on July 6, 2008 [5 favorites]


It's like watching self important people say self important things and then they look at you with that quizzical look on their face, as if to say "Would you like to contribute to this very important conversation that is going on?!" and then you remember you still haven't watched all of your Netflix videos yet.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:11 PM on July 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


This show could be fun. Lizz Winstead should have Mel Gibson on next to discuss the Gaza Strip.
posted by stavrogin at 4:11 PM on July 6, 2008


True, I think that's a fair point in their defense

I don't want to be defending them -- I think they managed to be both insulting and insipid, which is a depressing accomplishment. But, you know, the whole premise of this hip new "blogging" thing that the kids are talking about is predicated on unscripted and unedited honesty. The problem is shifting between what works on a blog, and what works on other formats (like print, radio, TV, etc) -- it's not as fluid or easy as a lot of people would like to think.

"I don't use condoms" or "I deal with fears of rape by pretending that it can only happen to other kinds of people" makes a really good blog post (or article in a place like Nerve). It makes a really crappy interview, though, unless you can follow that sentence up with a really self-aware paragraph that resituates you as an intelligent person... and those poor women weren't nearly articulate enough in that moment (perhaps thanks to the wine) to pull off that kind of rhetorical balancing act.
posted by Forktine at 4:12 PM on July 6, 2008


Agreed again. Stop being so smart! This will never get to Metatalk at this rate!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:14 PM on July 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


This show could be fun. Lizz Winstead should have Mel Gibson on next to discuss the Gaza Strip.

Awesome. She could serve him Manischewitz.
posted by felix betachat at 4:27 PM on July 6, 2008 [4 favorites]


Ugh. I knew this shitty story would make it here.

It's scary to me that the egos involved in the Gawker empire have become so large that these people actually think they are celebrities.

But what's even scarier is that in a way, they are -- in this blog review of the show, the 20-year-old blogger is so excited that Tracie Egan replies in the comments that she calls it a "HOLY SHIT MOMENT". She also refers to Egan and Tkacik as her "feminist heroes".

Chew on that.

I think we need to stop feeding these people's delusions of grandeur, the whole lot of them. When I started reading about this story in the past few days I just realised that the blogosphere can go fuck itself. Which, conveniently, it sort of already does.
posted by loiseau at 4:28 PM on July 6, 2008 [6 favorites]


Samuel Taylor Coleridge.

Edgar Allen Poe.

Papa Hemingway

Jack Kerouac.

Hunter S. Thompson.

Ken Kesey.


I think these writers were interesting when they were sober.
posted by jayder at 4:30 PM on July 6, 2008


oldleada writes "If writers were supposed to be 'role models'—the phrase is a good indication that it's time to leave the room—we would be bereft of a national literature. Poe, Melville, Emily Dickinson, Edna St. Vincent Millay, Sylvia Plath, William Burroughs, Bellow, Roth"

These two girls -- and I use that term intentionally -- are not writers. Certainly not with the capital-"W" implied by mentioning them with Poe, Melville, Dickinson, et alia. You're demolishing a straw man until and unless Moe or "Slut Machine" forge in the smithies of their souls vibrators something approaching Moby Dick or "All the Dead Dears" or Augie March.
posted by orthogonality at 4:31 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


Nah. Depends on whose getting fucked up and the story it makes them tell.

"If you feed opium to a pig farmer, he will dream of pigs"*

* I always thought it was Wilde who said that, but I can't find it attributed to him. Might've been Coleridge or one of his contemporaries...?
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:31 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


I think these writers were interesting when they were sober.

Nah. Coleridge was at his best when he was high.
posted by felix betachat at 4:35 PM on July 6, 2008


Tracie, Lizzy and Moe, huh? Kind of appropriate, because their performance does put one in mind of the Three Stooges.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:38 PM on July 6, 2008


the 20-year-old blogger is so excited that Tracie Egan replies in the comments that she calls it a "HOLY SHIT MOMENT".

I once had one of my jokes favourited by loquacious.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:40 PM on July 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


I'm a drinker. I'm sort of known for it. And you put back enough alcohol, you learn a few things very quickly:

Alcohol is never an excuse for anything you do.
If you're not ready to take responsibility for what you do or say drunk, you're not ready for a drink.
If you say or do things when drunk that you wouldn't do sober, alcohol may be something you want to avoid.
If you've done something while drinking that you regret, more drinking won't cure it.


These writers have repeatedly been called to the mat for being bad feminists, but, as odious as I might find their opinions, it just makes them dopes with odious opinions. I think a much bigger issue is that they are such embarrassingly bad drunks.
posted by Astro Zombie at 4:40 PM on July 6, 2008 [23 favorites]


I read Jezebel on a fairly frequent basis, and they've been a little fixated with rape lately, like many others. It's a gestalt item right now, in jokes and memes and the news and on people's minds. Several of those who read the site regularly have mentioned being a bit fatigued with the constancy, yet have entered gamely into more serious discussions of rape, which has seemed to be at least somewhat worthwhile, even if only from a survivor-venting perspective.

After reading this, I'm done being tolerant with the fixation. "Sarah Silverman act" or not, that's not how they present themselves on the site and certainly not how they frame discussions where they are soliciting traffic based on rape outrage.

And, even if it were just a blowsy priviledged brat fest - perhaps especially - that's pretty much the absolute opposite of actually helping survivors deal in any sense or allowing the community around said survivors to be populated by informed, compassionate people.

Time to write an email, I guess, and see if it comes up on their site for discussion....
posted by batmonkey at 4:45 PM on July 6, 2008


"...the Gawker empire..."

Funniest goddam thing I've read all week.
posted by Zambrano at 4:47 PM on July 6, 2008


I propose we have our own drunk video blog forum.

Let me start.

TK: I'm sorry. I just can't get over this baby getting tasered thing. I'm so against that. We should make a law. Unless it's one of those mutant giant babies. God damn. With the big pumpkin sized heads and the claws! you see one of those doddering down the street at you. I mean. Like fuck it. Tasering one of those might be okay. OH SHIT.

...I was so wasted I forgot turn the camera on.
posted by tkchrist at 4:47 PM on July 6, 2008


I read jezebel daily, and I don't think there's any Sarah Silverman act going on (although there were some jokes being made). Like, Moe's story about being date raped and deciding not to do anything about it? That's a true story. The part where she says "I had better things to do - like drinking!" is a ba-dum-pum joke tagged on the end. When the site launched I found it infuriating - but I think that's because I assumed that it was a feminist blog (in my defense, it says "feminism" in the tagline). And this made it kind of bewildering that the blogging about body image and Bad Women's Mags were contrasted with the bloggers' tips (to a young audience) that speed can be acquired over the internet, and it's a great way to lose weight. The way to enjoy the site - if you're so inclined - is to understand that the point of the blog is to get pageviews, and that finding attractive, "dangerous" oversharers is the way to do that.
posted by moxiedoll at 4:52 PM on July 6, 2008 [3 favorites]


orthogonality: I agree that Moe and Tracie are perhaps not quite ready for the canon, but that wasn't quite my point. Do you agree with Winstead that bloggers should be "role models"?

PS: Some of Tkacik's better work here and here.
posted by oldleada at 4:54 PM on July 6, 2008


I think these writers were interesting when they were sober.

You would be in a, how do I say it... in a... peculiar minority there.

I like tacos without hot sauce. Or meat. Or tortilla. Or beans. I think they are better that way.

But to each his own.
posted by tkchrist at 4:57 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


Didn't Jezebel.com used to be the blog of one of the Heathers or something?

Yes, it was originally owned by Heather Champ. She let the Jezebel domain go when she went with her own name. Heather is a long-time member here.
posted by netbros at 4:58 PM on July 6, 2008


About the jezebel.com thing: until 2006, jezebel.com was one of Heather Champ's sites. Around that time, Gawker came knocking, and because jezebel had sort of fallen by the wayside, Champ felt it was time to let the domain go. Now you know!
posted by chrominance at 5:00 PM on July 6, 2008


(also, this thread is up for three hours and I get beaten to the punch by two minutes! double-doh!)
posted by chrominance at 5:01 PM on July 6, 2008


Tracie: "I live in Williamsburg, there aren't very assertive men there"

Moe: "The thing about the rapists of our generation, is that they all use drugs, they all have some sort of drug they use on you, so it's good to feel, and I don't know if this has happed to me or if I just drink too much...

Moe: "It's really hard to prosecute them (rapists), so you should try to avoid them at all costs."

Tracie: "I once paid someone to rape me once."

Tracie: "Well, I didn't pay for it, I had a magazine pay for it

Tracie: "I moved here when I was 18 and you think you would encounter more rapists in a big city like this, but, I don't know, I just haven't."
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 5:06 PM on July 6, 2008


Some of Tkacik's better work here and here.

At the risk of re-igniting a longstanding flame war here, those circumcisions must rob men of some sensitivity if she can have three different men have sex with her and not one of them notices that their dicks are sharing space with a tampon. I mean if she was 50 and had had a bunch of kids, perhaps I could see it, but she's how old?

Either that or they must all have some tiny penises over there in the USA.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:10 PM on July 6, 2008


"If you feed opium to a pig farmer, he will dream of pigs."
What will the pig dream of? Electric slop buckets?
posted by ...possums at 5:13 PM on July 6, 2008


I find it so depressing that such stupid and shallow people are able to make money being so stupid and shallow.

Ericb, why did you choose to share these idiots with us? I'm quite curious about that.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:13 PM on July 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


Samuel Taylor Coleridge. Edgar Allen Poe. Papa Hemingway. Jack Kerouac. Hunter S. Thompson. Ken Kesey.

I think these writers were interesting when they were sober
.

Which was when exactly?

Sober writers/artists/musicians are generally a bore. Take it from me.
posted by jonmc at 5:14 PM on July 6, 2008


Your internet heroes, when removed from an environment when they can revise, edit, tweak and revise again, are drunken idiots.
posted by fire&wings at 5:17 PM on July 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


*hurls whiskey bottle*

You take that back!
posted by jonmc at 5:20 PM on July 6, 2008


I mean if she was 50 and had had a bunch of kids, perhaps I could see it, but she's how old?

Either that or they must all have some tiny penises over there in the USA.


First: Eeeeew. Oh no you dih'int.

And second: So. We either got poorly trained or small peni—or giant hoo-hoo's? Not trying to make many friends in the 'ol US of A, huh Peter?

My bet is the young lady in question selected young gentle men who were not very particular what their nethers bumped into. And afterwards, seeing what they were dealing with, were in a hurry to get another engagement.
posted by tkchrist at 5:20 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


oldleada writes "Do you agree with Winstead that bloggers should be 'role models'?"

Well, no. But I don't think they need to be listened to at all. I'll be honest, I've never gotten the point of a "blog". Perhaps because I'm a boring person with little to say. But I've never seen the point of reading (or recording for others) the minutiae of someone's life, or their non-expert opinions on ephemera.

If they were experts on something, or had something insightful to say, or were funny in a non-pathetic way, but from all I can tell, they aren't, they don't, and they only think they are.
posted by orthogonality at 5:22 PM on July 6, 2008


but from all I can tell, they aren't, they don't, and they only think they are.

I think you got the point of blogs quite well there.
posted by tkchrist at 5:27 PM on July 6, 2008


Why did you wish to give our attention to these 'tards, ericb?

Ericb, why did you choose to share these idiots with us? I'm quite curious about that.

why is what you choose to click on somehow ericb's responsibility? why are you such a masochist that you're toughing it out in this thread that you hate?

he obviously found it interesting enough to post. you think it's a waste of your time. i have a solution! this solution is so obvious that i won't even post it. but i guarantee you know what it is!
posted by Hat Maui at 5:28 PM on July 6, 2008 [4 favorites]


Drinking doesn't usually make people say things that they don't mean. It helps them to say things that they otherwise wouldn't. Their sense of what is and isn't appropriate for a particular is out of whack. That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't criticize what they say.

That's may be true, but isn't it also true that being stupid about things will increase your chances of being date raped? And isn't it also true that pulling out is more fun then other forms of birth control? Those facts don't mean that date rape victims should be though of as stupid, or that using the withdrawal method is a good idea.

Lots of people think lots of impolitic things, but the fact that they might say them while drunk doesn't mean they would ever act on those beliefs.

A COP TASERED A BABY! HOLY SHIT!

I read that as cop tasered by baby. Now that would be a story.
posted by delmoi at 5:37 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


Meh. There's a place and time for informed discussion, and drunken talk-shows probably aren't it. I'm inclined to believe them when they say they thought it was a comedy show, and that they say they were drunk.

Hands up who wants to be held responsible for all of their drunken jests, as though they were said seriously and with forethought. Yeah, didn't think so.

People have the right to make jokes about rape, just as we have the right to make jokes about murder, theft, suicide, diseases, ethnic tension, hate crimes, disfigurements, accidents, animal abuse, child abuse, etc etc. If you took seriously the content of any typical jokebook joke, it would likely be a horrifying event. Even when real, horrifying events are often considered funny because of the absurdity of their circumstances (eg, the Darwin Awards).

Now, this right comes with some responsibilities, such as: ensure everyone knows you're joking, ensure everyone more-or-less wants to be (or at least, doesn't mind being) told the joke, and refrain from jokes that are likely to offend one's audience. This is somewhat about courtesy, somewhat about avoiding "bad taste", somewhat about avoiding unnecessary conflict over the fairly trivial matter of a joke.

Have these women breached their responsibility there? I haven't watched the actual interview, I can't say for sure, but I'll tend to lean on the side of "not", as the format of the show is clearly presented as comedic, or at least, not serious, and the show was broadcast on TV and YouTube and watchers of that have the right, if offended, to turn it off, the live audience had the right to walk out, and the blog commenters have the right to comment, or quit reading.

Are they willing to engage in any serious discussion about rape? Maybe, maybe not. Lots of people aren't willing to engage in serious discussion about things that they are quite happy to joke about. Fairly often, the two go together. Humor is, to some extent, part of the mind's psychological "immune system". On a broader scale, humor functions as part of society's "immune system" for getting rid of profoundly stupid ideas. If we have to sacrifice humor for the sake of not offending potentially offendable people, I say to hell with those people's sensitivities (and if it's me being offended, to hell with my sensitivities too, and yes, I do actually have some): humor is more important. Relatively free speech, especially when clearly declared to be non-serious, is more important. Humor--in a similar way to alcohol, although with far fewer nasty side effects--frees the tongue and frees the mind. It is a bonding experience, one of life's greatest joys.

Lastly, anyone who thinks of themselves as a "role model" probably is a great role model for the role of self-righteous jackass. Role models are picked by those wanting to model their role on someone else's, and only to the extent applicable. Also, negative role models are extremely important: people not to be like. It has been the fashion in education and marketroid propaganda (perhaps I repeat myself) since the 1980's to tell authority figures of any kind that "you are a role model", and this has gradually leaked out and gotten onto anyone who would at any time in any way be in a position to give advice or be copied. It's bullshit. Everyone, everywhere, everytime, is a potential "role model", negative, positive, or neutral. That's what we have mirror neurons in our brains for.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 5:39 PM on July 6, 2008 [4 favorites]


oldleada writes "PS: Some of Tkacik's better work here and here."

No, it's not. Or if it's better, well, "better" is a relative term, right? I don't mind the grossoout factor in the tampon story. I mind the overwriting. The opening paragraph with the strings of adjectives: "It was verdant, sun-dappled, horticulture-redolent, exfoliated, affluent, groomed, merry, relaxed, pressed, aspirational, and at its beginning, even fragrant." I'm reminded of the prose in Winnie-the-pooh.

But what really annoyed me was "Transit stations at 2 a.m". There is no such thing as a transit station. Yes, there are stations in which people are in transit; they are called subway stations, trains stations, ports, airports, possibly even river crossings and customs stations and frontiers. But not the all-too-generic flabby vague "transit station".

(Well, Google has approximately 363,000 results, so maybe the rot has sunk into the culture. But 21 million for "train station"; two and half million for "subway station"; eight million for "bus station".)

The Washington Post piece is not as bad, presumably because the Post has editors. But it's still bad enough that I think I could have written it. I don't want to waste time on stuff so poorly written that it could have been written by me. And I don't think even I'd have produced something as cringe-worthy as "News flash, Linda! We are women. We care about people. It's what we do! "
posted by orthogonality at 5:42 PM on July 6, 2008


"If you feed opium to a pig farmer, he will dream of pigs"*

* I always thought it was Wilde who said that, but I can't find it attributed to him. Might've been Coleridge or one of his contemporaries...?


"If a man 'whose talk is of oxen' should become an opium-eater, the probability is that (if he is not too dull to dream at all) he will dream about oxen; whereas, in the case before him, the reader will find that the Opium-eater boasteth himself to be a philosopher..."
- Thomas de Quincey, "Confessions of an English Opium-Eater."

(Don't thank me--I'm just doing my job!)
posted by DaDaDaDave at 5:46 PM on July 6, 2008 [9 favorites]


I think these writers were interesting when they were sober.
>>You would be in a, how do I say it... in a... peculiar minority there.


I don't think so, as a fan of most of these. They wrote about getting high, they may have even written drafts while high, but they edited the hell out of their work while sober in every case.

Cause otherwise, a drunken story about drinking is like a boring story about a boring man. (Boring)
posted by msalt at 6:00 PM on July 6, 2008


.
posted by nola at 6:00 PM on July 6, 2008


Drinking doesn't usually make people say things that they don't mean.

Er. What? Have you ever been drinking before? Have you ever been around drunk people? Or are you only counting the first 40% of their personal drinking capacity (in which case you'd have a point). Once they get past that stage, then their attitude, personality, views and general comments can very much veer wildly from their usual views.

isn't it also true that pulling out is more fun then other forms of birth control?

More fun than the pill? All the finishing off, and none of the stress? Nope. In no way is pulling out more fun than that.
posted by Brockles at 6:02 PM on July 6, 2008


damn, i should've been able to guess it was de Quincey
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:07 PM on July 6, 2008


There's something I don't get here. Winstead says that her guests should have spoken more profoundly because people paid to be in the audience when this event took place. So, people (young women, apparently) paid to watch two bloggers be interviewed on a show called "Thinking and Drinking"? I mean, I'm old and don't get out much, but people paid?

Nothing I have ever read anywhere has so lowered my opinion of young women today. Paid! When they could've had the same show for free at their local bar where they would have visual aids (such as the scummy young men and pervy old farts hanging about) to spice the show! Maybe they would even get their drinks paid for! I don't know what youth is coming to these days.
posted by CCBC at 6:08 PM on July 6, 2008


My point wasn't that some people can't tell a good story when drunk, but that the good story is very very rarely about pointing out that they're drunk. Certainly when it filters down to blogs and blog comments it's just inane.

I don't understand "being drunk" as a badge of honor, like it's a skill, out-there, avant-garde or even naughty. It's like saying "I've just eaten a carrot!" I mean, who fucking cares?
posted by maxwelton at 6:10 PM on July 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


What's interesting, I think, is the way in which aspiring writers are now encouraged to go for the daily overshare as opposed to learning the craft of writing and editing. This is how writers for gawker get paid, and that's why you end up with the revolting tampon story. This girl, formerly of gawker, who was recently raked over the coals on metafilter, wound up on the cover of the NY Times Magazine - and now has a deal to write her memoirs. Moe used to be a real reporter - now that she's willing to talk about her abortions and tell the tampon story, she gets invited to write op-eds in major papers, and to speak As A Writer, in a theater, at the age of twenty nine. I don't think those venues would be available to a woman her age who wasn't telling crazy sexy stories. It's probably A Bad Thing - but I don't blame Emily, Moe or Tracie for taking advantage.
posted by moxiedoll at 6:11 PM on July 6, 2008 [6 favorites]


> he obviously found it interesting enough to post. you think it's a waste of your time. i have a
> solution! this solution is so obvious that i won't even post it. but i guarantee you know what
> it is!

It's teaching the monkeys to stop typing that's hard.
posted by jfuller at 6:17 PM on July 6, 2008


Drunk story telling has its place...
posted by Brockles at 6:20 PM on July 6, 2008


At the risk of re-igniting a longstanding flame war here, those circumcisions must rob men of some sensitivity if she can have three different men have sex with her and not one of them notices that their dicks are sharing space with a tampon. I mean if she was 50 and had had a bunch of kids, perhaps I could see it, but she's how old?

Okay, this is just wrong. Getting older and having kids doesn't stretch vaginas out and make them somehow roomier. If bodies worked like this, we'd probably have esophagi all stretched out from eating too many hamburgers as well, and in general you'll find that you don't.
posted by kalessin at 6:23 PM on July 6, 2008


I find slutmachine irritating (Not telling your lovers about your herpes? Losing tampons inside you and having sex with known alcoholics? Ew), but Moe is normally readable. This, however, is depressing. C'mon Jezebel, you can do better than that.
posted by Phalene at 6:24 PM on July 6, 2008


It is not actually so hard to know where the line is.

Unless one is drunk.

Then one is stupid floozy.

I'm talking about humor, here.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 6:32 PM on July 6, 2008


Wait, what's Gawker?
posted by sonic meat machine at 6:38 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


> If bodies worked like this, we'd probably have esophagi all stretched out from eating too
> many hamburgers as well, and in general you'll find that you don't.

You did pay attention in sex ed, right? The day they explained that we don't deliver 8-pound babies one bite at a time?
posted by jfuller at 6:55 PM on July 6, 2008


I'm confused. There'e something about 'known alcoholics' that means they shouldn't be slept with? What on earth for? Heroin addicts, I can understand, but alcoholics?
posted by Brockles at 6:56 PM on July 6, 2008


I was date raped by a long-term SO and didn't report it. I think it's really wrong to insinuate that a woman is in the wrong by not reporting a rape, especially in a situation like Moe's, or mine. It's more complex than "someone who rapes needs to go to jail." I don't know if you've ever tried to prosecute a rape, but it's really difficult, and there's a lot of, "are you sure you're not just a whore or asking for it?" Especially if there was no violence involved. Saying a woman needs to go to the police about her rape is pretty much equivalent to making her a victim again, "you were an idiot for getting raped, and now you're an idiot for not doing anything about it." I'm pretty sure Moe's explanation was a joke. As in, "this is a comedy show and I don't have to explain myself anyway. Hurr hurr I drink too much."

I still love Moe and Tracie. They're not my role models; they're fab women that I admire.

I am too disgusted to respond to stuff like, "LOL HUGE VAGINAS TOO MUCH SEX LOL." Other than this comment, I guess.
posted by giraffe at 6:57 PM on July 6, 2008 [6 favorites]


I haven't followed any of the links, but I wish shows called 'Thinking and Drinking' would interview me. I'm all about the thinking and the drinking.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:58 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


ortho: a 'transit station' is a place that people can change between multiple forms of (usually public) transport: the one in my city has local buses, local trains, interstate trains, intercity buses and taxis. 'Roma St Transit Centre' covers that much more elegantly than 'Roma St Local and Long Distance Bus and Train Centre'.
posted by jacalata at 6:59 PM on July 6, 2008


damn, i should've been able to guess it was de Quincey

Don't drag poor Jack Klugman into this.
posted by jonmc at 7:13 PM on July 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


2. They do not understand the influence they have over the women who read them, nor do they accept any responsibility as role models for young women who are coming of age searching for lifestyles to emulate.

If you're a young woman coming of age and your role model is someone named "slut machine," I would guess that you have bigger problems than some silly interview.
posted by Afroblanco at 7:29 PM on July 6, 2008 [4 favorites]


Skipper secretly hates Barbie.
posted by Dizzy at 7:36 PM on July 6, 2008 [1 favorite]


coming of age and your role model

drinkin' whiskey straight out tha 8-bottle
Do I look like a motherfuckin' role model?
posted by jonmc at 7:37 PM on July 6, 2008


That's may be true, but isn't it also true that being stupid about things will increase your chances of being date raped?

This is true to the same degree that teaching kids not to take candy from strangers completely eradicated kidnapping and child molestation.
posted by billyfleetwood at 7:39 PM on July 6, 2008 [4 favorites]


These women are shining a light for thousands of Midwestern teenagers who aspire to someday also move to Williamsburg and catch Chlamydia from an art fraud with an ironic mullet and big, plastic clown glasses.
posted by The Straightener at 8:06 PM on July 6, 2008 [9 favorites]


A past girlfriend of mine had been date-raped shortly before I met her. To this day, she doesn't trust men and she still blames herself for "being in that situation". The situation was that she got a lot more drunk than she should have, and when she asked for a ride home, she was taken to a motel. She wasn't comfortable with that, but had no other options. Before she passed out, in a chair, she said "Don't even think about touching me". She woke up on the bed, half-naked, with an old friend from high school having sex with her. Where it went from there is a bit too personal/gory to go into here. But, the point is that is was many years ago and she still thinks she did something wrong.

I can justify almost any crime. Murder, for instance, - I can justify that if someone is trying to shoot and kill you but somehow slips and you get a chance to grab the gun and shoot them, I feel like that's fair game. Rape, on the other hand, is NEVER justifiable. There's never a reason for it.

There's just no excuse. There's no amount of "you should be careful out there" or "you should've known better" to justify it. NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING could ever justify forcibly having sex with someone who doesn't have the wherewithal to say "yes, let's have sex" - or someone saying "no" and someone going right ahead with it anyway.

That these women don't have the common sense to point that out bothers me immensely. I didn't much care for their high school antics before, but now they're on my "biggest fucking idiots ever" list.
posted by revmitcz at 8:11 PM on July 6, 2008 [4 favorites]


@Brockles

Because addicts who are still abusing the substance of choice = potential major drama. See also 'improperly medicated bipolar disorder' and other ongoing mental ailments (Aspegers not withstanding) for other things which take human beings off my list of people I want to be close friends with/have sex with.

Mentally ill, addicted family has taught me that trying to have a relationship with someone who is not in control of themself leads to heartbreak, getting your property stolen and hiding behind mail boxes to avoid your grandmother.

I'm cool with people who merely avoid alcohol because they binged when they were teenagers and knew they had poor self control, but ongoing substance abuse is a red flag, and Slutmachine describing her lover as an 'alcoholic' makes me think she probably means he was the active sort.
posted by Phalene at 8:27 PM on July 6, 2008


A friend of mine likes to say "A sober man's thoughts are a drunk man's words ..."

I saw Moe do a "reading" recently, where she basically regurgitated a long, rambling e-mail that referred to Mariane Pearl as a "hack writer and a hack person" for writing a book about her husband's murder.

Whether or not you out there in MeFi land liked the book, I think that SUCKS. She had a proud little smirk on when she described Pearl "giving me the stink-eye" at a party, like it was somehow cool that she'd earned that hatred.

Moe sucks, through and through. I haven't heard of her writing anything that proves she's anything other than overexposed and undeserving of the attention. I think she may be a bad human being, period.
posted by chinese_fashion at 8:42 PM on July 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


For me the point has nothing to do with not reporting rape.

It's saying you haven't been raped yet because you're "smart".


Did you know that one of the main deprogrammings that many survivors have to go through is believing they are too stupid too live because they were such idiots they "let" themselves be raped?

Did you know that one of the main reasons rape survivors don't tell anyone what happened is because they're afraid those who love them and whom they need the most understanding from after the trauma will think they are stupid for having "let" themselves be raped?

These two things are the amongst the most destructive and difficult to work through aspects of recovering from rape. Isolation, self-destructiveness, and inability to form attachments often flow from the idea of having not been smart enough to avoid being raped.

Of course, most people who have been raped weren't doing anything "stupid" or even "risky". The idea that one has caused such a self-shattering violation is a difficult obstacle to get over, and many don't.


I'd be shocked if you didn't know this, and more than shocked if she didn't know this, considering the conversations that have taken place over the last couple of months on the site, if we're to assume she's never had rape prevention education or looked at a defense brochure.
posted by batmonkey at 8:59 PM on July 6, 2008 [9 favorites]


revmitcz, your story reminds me of one thing that will never cease to bother me about the term "date-rape" which is that it somehow became a substitute and/or diminishing modifier for the word rape. It places a gray area where there is none, and excuses the inexcusable.

It also makes it hard to tell a good rape joke.

The problem that these two young ladies ran into here was not one of insensitivity or ignorance, it was simply not knowing the craft. What makes a joke about something horrible work is a common belief that said thing is horrible. Not saying date-rape isn't horrible, but as a concept it raises questions of perception, rather than taking you straight to "that's terrible!"

Sarah Silverman hasbeen mentioned a couple of times in this thread. A good example of this exact concept is how she once got all sorts of hot water over a joke she made once about racism. It was a funny joke, but there were way too many gray areas. We all agree racism is bad, but we don't all agree on what racism is. Sadly, the same goes for "date-rape". We probably wouldn't be even having this discussion if either of them had started their "jokes" with some sort of setup. Also someone should inform them that when working as a duo, someone has to play the straight guy. If they want to call themselves feminists, they should know that every Lucy needs an Ethel.
posted by billyfleetwood at 9:11 PM on July 6, 2008


Hopefully Moe and Tracie will have the guts and wisdom to retract their irresponsible remarks before some bored tv "news" producer trolling the intarwebs discovers this brouhaha, and decides to use the video as the basis for a piece on the "new feminism" (airing, of course, about a month later, after everyone has stopped caring and moved on.)
[I'm looking at you, Good Morning America.]
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:19 PM on July 6, 2008


Skipper secretly hates Barbie.

Skipper secretly loved Gilligan.
posted by ericb at 9:37 PM on July 6, 2008 [2 favorites]


Why are there still so many women out there who rely on pulling out as a form of contraception? Several women I'm close to have told me that they consistently rely on it, and when I sputter and mention that goes against everything they even teach in a goddam 7th grade health class, let alone not protecting against STD's, they just look at me with a sort of pitying bewilderment. Also, it seems like many girls I know question their ability to conceive at all, citing long periods of unprotected sex which never resulted in pregnancy.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 10:08 PM on July 6, 2008


Why are there still so many women out there who rely on pulling out as a form of contraception?

Because it's not an irrational decision (there are better decisions, but also much worse ones), and it feels good, and it's sexy as hell.

The failure rate with withdrawal is actually pretty close to the "typical use" failure rate with condoms, and both are enormously better than doing nothing. (citation) So pulling out as a contraceptive technique isn't totally stupid -- it's not as smart as, say, using the pill or putting on a condom correctly and consistently, but there are far, far stupider things you could do in bed. And those failure rates are not per sex act, but rather for a couple having regular sex. Hook up with someone once every few of months for a weekend, and your total exposure is maybe twelve or fifteen sex acts that year -- not nearly the exposure of someone who is having sex every night for a year.

(STD's are a different issue, but with some minimal sorting of partners by risk, HIV is not necessarily a major factor for a lot of heterosexuals; many other STDs are either treatable or so common as to be unremarkable; in many cases, also, I suspect that people misjudge STD risk because it isn't talked about as openly as pregnancy is.)

On top of that, bareback sex for many (most? almost all?) people feels a lot better than latex sex. I know, I know, this is where people pop out of the woodwork and say "dude, condoms feel great for me!" But that's not exactly a universally held feeling, and is a real reason for people using other methods.

Lastly, risky sex is really hot. Bringing things right to the edge before backing off is exciting. When there's no condom, and she's not on the pill, both of you know that finishing out that last stroke inside instead of squirting on her belly could get her pregnant -- is there any more powerful possibility in the entire world?

Coming back to the "is it irrational?" question, you have to remember that a not-insignificant proportion of people are not actually totally opposed to the idea of having a pregnancy occur. They may prefer it to be later, they may prefer it to be with a different partner, and so on. But not everyone follows the really tight script of get job/get married/buy house/buy minivan/finally have kids on schedule. A lot of people are willing to adapt and make do and deal with the pregnancy now rather than take the steps (like using more reliable contraception) that would ensure the delayed breeding schedule.
posted by Forktine at 10:40 PM on July 6, 2008 [4 favorites]


Haven't people ever heard of spermicidal foam? Cervical caps? The two together should be nearly as effective as The Pill, and one helluva lot better than "pulling out."
posted by five fresh fish at 10:45 PM on July 6, 2008


These women are fucking disgusting.
posted by Kloryne at 10:48 PM on July 6, 2008


I'm sorry - can I change that to fucking depressing?
posted by Kloryne at 10:53 PM on July 6, 2008


It occurs to me that the whole blogosphere "cavalcade o' douchebags" closely mirrors the real world of American media. Look at the rise of "reality" television, in which the most conniving jack-off will go on to fame and fortune. Look at Fox News, where it's a requirement of employment that one be as offensive as possible. Look at the whole tabloid Hollywood scene, where the key to getting fame and fortune is to flaunt your meat-drapes to the papparazzi as you get out of the back seat of a car.

Little wonder that shitheels are getting onto magazine covers and landing editorial contracts. In America, you can make a damn fine living being the biggest douchebag you can make yourself out to be.

Rush Limbaugh is getting, what, a half-billion dollars over the next few years? Perfect example.

WTF has happened? Why is society driving itself/being driven to the bottom of the barrel, instead of aspiring to be better?
posted by five fresh fish at 10:54 PM on July 6, 2008 [4 favorites]


Having looked at their blogs, my baffled response is "someone pays them to write this tripe?"

Not as much as they used to. The numbers on being a vicious, back-stabbing little shitheel are actually pretty pathetic. I feel comfortable going back to paying to attention whatsoever to the thrilling new world of the electronic tabloid.
posted by nanojath at 11:28 PM on July 6, 2008


WTF has happened? Why is society driving itself/being driven to the bottom of the barrel, instead of aspiring to be better?

If you're wondering why douchbaggery appears to be on the increase, you might find a metaphor in what happened to TV programming once cable was introduced.

The idea was that - in order to capture peoples' attention as they channel surfed - every minute of every show had to be wow, whizz-bang, flashy! Thus, cheap & sensationalist reality shows like Cops crowded out serious dramas that take an hour or so to develop characters & plot. These were later augmented by reality shows like Idol or Big Brother, which added voyeurism, personal identification & a certain cringe factor to the mix, like rubbernecking at a carcrash.

It could be that we are seeing something similar happening on the internet. If you need to make the most noise to gain attention, this may entail being the emptiest vessel. Not only that, the internet is competing with traditional media for your attention, and therefore for your advertising dollar, so it's not very surprising for the entire market to start resembling a cross-media competition for the Greatest Douche in the Universe Award.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:31 PM on July 6, 2008


It seems like the biggest problem people here seem to have with this is Moe's seemingly flippant attitude towards her date rape. I think it's pretty obvious that when she said she didn't press charges because she had better things to do, like drink, that was a joke. It was her rape. She's allowed to joke about it. And she's also allowed to NOT press charges for ANY REASON AT ALL. I was a court witness when a friend pressed charges against her rapist when we were seventeen. The defense attorney asked me, while I was sitting behind the table holding hands with my mom, trying not to cry, how many sexual partners I had (more than one) and if I had a 'reputation' at school (not really, because I mostly spent time with older kids from the university in the next town). The judge allowed it, apparently this was important even though I wasn't present at the party when the rape happened. I was the person the rape victim called to pick her up, and the person who held her hand as we walked back into the house so we could find her house keys and her underpants in the bloody sheets (she, unlike me, was a virgin). In case you're wondering, the rapist got 6 months in jail, which he served on 'nights and weekends' so he could finish shool - and he only did that for a few weeks before the sentence was suspended due to jail overcrowding. My friend moved out-of-state because of the taunts and threats she received from the rapist's family, random people in town, and a pretty big majority of people at our small school.

If I were raped, I would think long and hard about putting my friends and family through a rape trial, much less myself.

And maybe Moe really wasn't that bothered. I think that with all the furore about rape, people forget that it's sexism that makes rape such a big deal in the first place. In a perfect world, a woman wouldn't be seen as the property of man. Her 'virginity' wouldn't be the most valuable thing about her. She would have complete control over her reproductive function, including immediate, no-questions-asked access to cheap or free abortions, and freedom from negative judgment if she chooses to have an abortion.

If all that were true, for me, and for a lot of women, 'rape' wouldn't need a special word- it would just be assault. Maybe somehow, Moe has found/created a world where all of this is true for her, and not choosing to press charges over her rape because it's too much trouble is no different than not choosing to press charges for being mugged because you barely got a look at the guy's face, he didn't steal anything you really need back, and you're going on holiday in a few days and you don't want to deal with the hassle. In other words, not a big deal, and nothing that anyone with any sense would judge you for.
posted by F.Jasmine Addams at 2:20 AM on July 7, 2008 [12 favorites]


jasmine: 'rape' wouldn't need a special word- it would just be assault. That is the basic legal concept that has had a rocky road in Canada. I think this is a way ahead, but there are some problems to deal with.
posted by CCBC at 2:41 AM on July 7, 2008


Re, moxiedoll's (and nanojanth's) link about how these bloggers are paid, and how sites make their money... it wouldn't be a stupid bet that assume that a lot, or even most, of the "blogosphere" dramas are probably just de facto virals for page views. Even the whole BoingBoing thing - though I don't think it was engineered by BB on purpose for this reason (though it could have been by Violet Blue) - has had the same effect.

I hadn't been paying a lot of attention to the Gawker, et al, sites, and now I will pay no attention at all. Strictly. I hope we (Metafilter) will soon come to view these looook-at-meeee shenanigans as we do astroturfing and virals, and refuse to deliver our eyes to their advertisers.
posted by taz at 3:43 AM on July 7, 2008 [1 favorite]


Jasmine, I understand what you're saying, and I completely agree. I've already made the decision that should I be raped, I likely won't follow up in the legal system -- it's just too much expense, and pain, and shame for what will almost certainly be a pretty poor outcome. And even aside from that, I believe that a woman who's just had her control over her body completely taken away should have the right to decide what happens next.

Where I get pissed off is when Moe dismisses the earthshattering effect rape can have on one, and...mmm...treats it as a joke, really, is what it comes down to. And particularly coming after Megan's unbelievably moving, healing essay on Thursday about her own rapes, and her decisions to prosecute and not prosecute. How can you talk that way when a woman who's your fellow writer, and presumably your friend, has talked so openly and so beautifully about her own pain?

As for slut machine's 'smart' comment, I'm simultaneously too tired and too rage-filled to dignify it with a comment. Okay, one: fuck you, cuntbag, you don't know shit about what smart is.
posted by kalimac at 5:22 AM on July 7, 2008


"They're clearly just riffing -- being comical brats, saying purposely brash shit just to make people like Lizz Winstead get huffy. It's a Sarah Silverman act."

I watched about 5 minutes of the first video and it looks obvious to me that they're taking the piss. I don't know why anyone would ask the writers at Jezebel to opine on anything, much less pay them to do so, but this is exactly what I would expect to happen if someone did. Oldleada is OTM, more or less, I think.

"I think it has to do with the fact that I'm like smart. I don't hang around with frat guys"

Wonkette writers warned her about the Late Night Shots dudes, no doubt.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:40 AM on July 7, 2008


Not that I'm particularly fond of frats, but I hate that that is the stereotypical source of all rape. I strongly suspect that after adjusting for alcohol consumption, frats are no worse than the rest of the 18-30 year old male population when it comes to commiting rape (not that I have citations).

When I volunteered at my college's rape prevention education project, the frats seemed to be very interested in what we had to say (there seemed to be this fear that rape accusations could happen to anybody), but there was no victim blaming. The sororities on the other hand were horrible about the victim blaming.

Potential victims of rape can make decisions that affect the probability of it happening, and it is idiocy to deny that out of a misguided attempt to prevent victim blame. However, that said, male or female, no one can protect themselves completely from the possibility of rape, and even if one could come close it would limit life to the point of intolerability.
posted by BrotherCaine at 5:49 AM on July 7, 2008 [1 favorite]


You did pay attention in sex ed, right? The day they explained that we don't deliver 8-pound babies one bite at a time?

After primary school, I moved on and continued to educate myself in sexuality and physiology such that I don't feel I need to find it on Snopes to believe that the "all stretched out" urban legend is just that.

I tend to equate believing in the "all stretched out" urban legend with believing that people get less hot, less interesting and less passionate as they get older - i.e. foolish and self-defeating, especially when one expects to get a lot out of life.

But hey, feel free to believe what you believe. I ain't stopping you.
posted by kalessin at 6:02 AM on July 7, 2008 [1 favorite]


Thanks to those who linked the article about payscales at Gawker -- I had imagined that the writers were paid much more than that. I understand less and less about the economics of the internet every day.

And this brings up the question: how many views or favorites do my comments here need to receive before I can earn back that initial $5 investment at the MetaFilter company store?

I loaded sixteen tons, I tried to get ahead,
Got deeper and deeper in debt instead.
Well they got what I made, and they wanted some more,
And now I owe my soul at the company store.

posted by Forktine at 6:37 AM on July 7, 2008


I assume you have to be self-absorbed to report to the world every lurid detail about your sex life...

Um, or you're free enough from hangups to not make a special category for omigod SEX, so you're just as "self-absorbed" as a blogger who provides every "intimate" detail on, like, cooking or baseball or musicology.

The sex hangup is so bloody American. Frustrating.
posted by rokusan at 8:50 AM on July 7, 2008 [1 favorite]


just as "self-absorbed" as a blogger who provides every "intimate" detail on, like, cooking

Well, that would also have to be someone pretty self-absorbed. So let's try this:

I assume you have to be self-absorbed to report to the world every lurid detail about any aspect of your sex life...
posted by jacalata at 9:00 AM on July 7, 2008


What's the prize for Greatest Douche in the Universe? Do you get a trophy?
posted by Meatbomb at 9:08 AM on July 7, 2008


sexy as hell... risky sex is really hot

1 in 4 teenage girls are sexy as hell.
"They're not sores, they're badges of really hotness!"
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:20 AM on July 7, 2008 [2 favorites]


The sex hangup is so bloody American. Frustrating.

What nation do healthy boundaries come from?
posted by The Straightener at 9:43 AM on July 7, 2008 [2 favorites]


I'm not offended by sex. I'm offended by boring and lazy, and too many female writers are successfully leapfrogging the process by which better writers, male and female both, got to be better writers, instead choosing to use morbid self-exposure to attract an audience. And hey, great, you want to write about sex, be my guest. It's a fabulous topic, and one worthy of great writing. But this ain't it. And, yes, you can joke about anything, even rape. Absolutely. But make sure your jokes are worth telling. These weren't.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:13 AM on July 7, 2008 [1 favorite]


Having looked at the two short clips, it seems to me that the person here suggesting that date rapees have themselves (or Moe or Tracie) to blame is Lizz Winstead. She kicks off the rape discussion with:

"In an age when you're focussing on sexual freedom, it's not always safe, it's not always safe to be with strange men, it's not always safe to just have a free one hundred percent total sexual life: How do you address that - do you address it?"
(basically - you blog about sleeping with strangers - isn't your behaviour risky? How can you say this is ok?)

Moe kind of bats it away, saying she doesn't get out much. Tracie takes it on:"People are always saying it's not safe to go home with strange men" Moe interjects: "What's gonna happen?" Lizz Winstead gets to the point: "You could get raped."

Moe retorts, pretty reasonably: "Yeah but you live through that." Winstead (ominously) "Sometimes you don't". Moe makes a joke: "Yeah, I guess, if they have weapons"

Later, this is still going on. Tracie prefaces the remark alluded to in the fpp with:

"I know that it happens to girls who are smart and who know what they are doing...but I have never been in that situation and I have had lots and lots and lots of sex with a lot of people in my life." She goes on to say maybe it's about education

Winstead comes in with: "Maybe you're lucky! You gotta address the fact that maybe you're fuckin lucky." (implication, to have gotten away with your risky behaviour)

Then Tracie says she gets out of situations she doesn't like quickly, has taken self defence classes, etc, and then says "I'm not saying just because I'm proactive in my own safety that other girls suck if they're not."

Later, Moe says: "It's also ridiculous to be like you can never know and you have to be on guard at all times - it's like the war on terror."

Winstead: "No it's isn't, because sex is an individual thing and the way that you know how to do things is an individual thing" (i.e. women's behaviour can cause them to get raped) Then she quickly turns to Tracie and says:

"You are a lucky woman that you have never been raped, bless your heart, it's awesome....when a blanket message gets out in the world that's its ok to have this one kind of a amazing lifestyle because it's always going to be safe for everyone because you've been really fortunate enough not to experience that guy, I just think there's some kind of middle ground to be had about to be this really free sexual being and how to realise that we don't live in a world that makes it completely safe to be that person." (i.e. your behaviour is rape-risky; you tell people that's ok - in a "blanket message" no less! It isn't ok and it isn't ok for you to give the impression it is ok.)

Tracie, getting her drift, says: "Anyone that would emulate someone else is not with it completely" and Winstead makes her big point (loudly)"Your whole blog is based on people emulating you!". She then compares sexual choices to wearing ugg boots, and the interview wraps.

Assuming she did her homework, she basically brought them out (especially Tracie) so that she could say "aren't you irresponsible and won't it be your fault when your readers get date raped and isn't a miracle that you haven't been, yet." Winstead is the one suggesting that date rapees are to blame; she's planting the suggestion and her obviously drunk guests are doing their incoherent best to refute it.

I don't think Moe and Tracie are great feminists or great bloggers or great writers. But I would have though mefites could sniff out a blatant set up like this.
posted by tiny crocodile at 10:22 AM on July 7, 2008 [11 favorites]


Sheesh. Sorry. That got long.
posted by tiny crocodile at 10:23 AM on July 7, 2008


But long in a worthwhile way, tiny crocodile.

Good summary and dissection. You gave me more to think about.
posted by batmonkey at 11:09 AM on July 7, 2008


Lizz' big mistake was having them on in the first place. I wonder how much time she spent reading Jezebel before this.
(I'd previously read the article Tracie wrote about buying her 'rape' experience.)

I just don't think Lizz gets the whole apathetic viewpoint these girls live in.

On a crowded street in Williamsburg, were someone to rob another in plain view of 20 of these morons people, all of them would stand in place slack-jawed, save one or maybe two. And those two would to turn to their neighbor and say, "did you see THAT?"

Sheltered isn't the word, but it's close. That you can stay so much so (flaunt it, even) in NYC is a bizarre concept to New Yorkers.
posted by Busithoth at 12:19 PM on July 7, 2008


Aw, thanks batmonkey.

Was coming back to post this: Winstead's (probable) homework; a recent jezebel shitstorm where Tracie made some jokey comments about Roman Polanski's statutory rape rap and got a lot of shit about it (and reacted really badly, but that's another discussion about the role of mods/editors, and why the person making the post and modding the thread should not be one and the same).
posted by tiny crocodile at 12:24 PM on July 7, 2008


You don't need to blame the victim to say that certain behaviors increase your risk, whether it's rape or mugging or AIDS. It's a fine line that the host was rightly focused on -- it's the whole tricky thing about this discussion.

It's very hard (for some reason) for people to work out how choices affect probabilities of bad things. How many times have you heard "Yeah but my grandpa smoked until he died at 87"? Look at lottery and video poker revenues. Hell, deficit spending, global warming.

Very few risky choices hurt you every time. Blame shouldn't even be part of the discussion. That shouldn't mean we can't have the discussion.
posted by msalt at 12:33 PM on July 7, 2008 [1 favorite]


Thanks, tiny crocodile. I can't watch the video here in the library; I'm glad Moe and Tracie aren't as bad as some of the comments made them sound. I'm a little grossed out by Winstead actually: "Your whole blog is based on people emulating you!" ...It is?

Oh, and kalimac: Moe has written about her own rape at a bit more length. I don't think her jokes are always funny, but I think it's more about belittling this shitty thing that happened to her and taking away all the gross power of the word "rape" and the sense of being a "rape victim," not making grand pronouncements. I'm not saying everything she's ever said is genius or even that she would win any feminism contests, but I'm not really a big fan of feminism contests.
posted by SoftRain at 12:41 PM on July 7, 2008 [1 favorite]


msalt wrote:
"Very few risky choices hurt you every time. Blame shouldn't even be part of the discussion. That shouldn't mean we can't have the discussion."

Absolutely agreed and glad you spelled it out that way.

The problem with the bit about "I'm smart" is it set up a fall for any listener/reader trying to get over the "too stupid to avoid being raped" obstacle and that always gets my goat.

Certainly, there are riskier choices than others that can be made, and, yeah, it's crappy to have to always be thinking about whether or not THIS person can be trusted to not suddenly take away your right to self-determination over what happens to your body.

For those reasons, statements which seem to be making it about being "smart" or not deflates those who have already had it happen and gives false reassurance to those who have so far avoided it.

Most everyone believes they're making the best decisions they can, under whatever circumstances they exist in. If they think they're "smart" enough to avoid being raped by someone they thought would be good boyfriend/snogging material, they just may ignore red flags or their gut instincts or even their escape opportunity if they are suddenly proven horribly wrong.

Another thing here is the idea that date rape is somehow less horrible or more predictable than other types of rape deemed less "grey" in the perceptions of the general public, law enforcement, and the courts. Sometimes, it is one or both of those things. Often, it's neither.

The whole thing's just sad.
posted by batmonkey at 1:02 PM on July 7, 2008


Was coming back to post this: Winstead's (probable) homework; a recent jezebel shitstorm where Tracie made some jokey comments about Roman Polanski's statutory rape rap and got a lot of shit about it

People actually read the posts where it's a copy/paste of an IM conversation? I never do. If they didn't bother to take the time to really write it, I don't bother reading it.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:03 PM on July 7, 2008 [2 favorites]


Wow, read this whole thing. I think they do know better, and I think they were misinterpreted to some extent. And I think tinycrocodile nails it. I also think that she shouldn't have joked about not getting raped because she is "smart" even if her lifestyle choices were being attacked.
posted by lunit at 1:47 PM on July 7, 2008


Thank you, tiny crocodile. Nice summary.
posted by kalessin at 2:20 PM on July 7, 2008


WTF has happened? Why is society driving itself/being driven to the bottom of the barrel, instead of aspiring to be better?

I wrote a long post about this a while ago, I think it's simply related to an ever increasing access to information media and wealth amoung all people. Whereas earlier in the century only the rich had access to passive media, controlled publishing, etc. Now everyone has access to TV and disposable income to be advertized too.

Now with the internet everyone can actually publish and what do we see? Tons and tons of nonsense, but what do you expect? Every single human to sprout an interest in Proust?
posted by delmoi at 3:45 PM on July 7, 2008 [1 favorite]


If all this helps people realise that blogs and shows like these are the equivalent of Big Brother - 'reality' TV for the righteously politically-correct left-leaning web cognoscenti - then I'm all for it.

Until then: YHBT.
posted by Pinback at 4:01 PM on July 7, 2008


delmoi said: "I wrote a long post about this a while ago, I think it's simply related to an ever increasing access to information media and wealth amoung all people. Whereas earlier in the century only the rich had access to passive media, controlled publishing, etc. Now everyone has access to TV and disposable income to be advertized too."

Strongly disagree with you here. Do you really think everyone has access to TV and disposable income? Even everyone in the US, is that's what you're referring to?

By and large people with access to the tools for self-publishing are still privileged, middle-to-high-income people. I don't have statistics about Internet access but I'd eat my hat if this isn't true.
posted by loiseau at 9:27 PM on July 7, 2008


Nom, nom, nom!

71% North America internet penetration as of late 2007. The USA is #1 in the number of internet users, and 20% of them are using DSL.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:42 PM on July 7, 2008


So... my point stands, then.
posted by loiseau at 11:04 PM on July 7, 2008


How so? You're positing that 71% of the North American population are privileged, middle-to-high-income people? I was under impression that the poverty level in the US was much higher than 29%.
posted by Bugbread at 3:55 AM on July 8, 2008


Samuel Taylor Coleridge.

Edgar Allen Poe.

Papa Hemingway

Jack Kerouac.

Hunter S. Thompson.

Ken Kesey.

I think these writers were interesting when they were sober.


I agree, if you're talking about their books. I'm not positive, but it seems like their best books (excluding Hemingway, who has no good books, ha, and Kerouac, whom I don't care much about) were written while sober. Personally, they were probably more fun loaded.

William Faulkner, on the other hand, seemed to be drunk all the time. At least that's what John Mahoney taught me.

The link about the Gawker pay rates was very interesting, thanks. Good to know that they don't get more than the $6/1,000 pageviews the rest of us go by... in fact, they only get $5 now.

Does anyone know how it compares to "mommybloggers," i.e. those self publishers who get paid by Google ads. How much do they earn per 1K pv? I suppose it depends on if your readers click ads...

On preview: "Poverty in the United States is cyclical in nature with roughly 12% to 15% living below the federal poverty line at any given point in time, and roughly 40% falling below the poverty line at some time within a 10 year time span." (From wikipedia)

So (by census figures, of course) it's much lower than 29%.
posted by mrgrimm at 8:20 AM on July 8, 2008


Jezebel's Managing Editor, Anna Holmes, on the debacle:

"Some blame the format, or the participants, or generational differences, or alcohol, or the provocative subject matter, or unrealistic expectations, inarticulateness and lack of preparedness. I believe that everyone, however, can agree that the whole thing was a fucking shame*."

Read more (and comment responsibly) here.

*emphasis mine
posted by batmonkey at 9:29 AM on July 8, 2008


Sarah Hepola comments at Salon's Broadsheet:
Like many in the Denton empire, these women were hired not because they are writers or thinkers or political intellects. They were hired because they are fame-seeking entertainers and characters. By this more realistic measure, both women did their jobs -- and how! -- on Winstead's show.

But can't we expect more? I'm reminded of something Madonna once said about her younger, angrily provocative self. "I had everyone's attention. Now, what was I going to do with it?"
posted by scody at 1:24 PM on July 8, 2008 [2 favorites]


This is not a response but it is something.
posted by evabraunstein at 1:35 PM on July 8, 2008


MrGrimm,

Ah, cool, thanks for that information. Been a long time since I've lived in the US, and the impression I got from discussions of poverty and the US economy here on MeFi was that something like 50% or so was below the poverty line.
posted by Bugbread at 1:37 PM on July 8, 2008


Homeless bloggers; I'd think you'd have to be rural poor or illiterate to not be able to blog, and even the illiterate may be able to videoblog.
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:43 PM on July 8, 2008


I used to like Jezebel but then I started commenting and I realized
that I really didn't like a lot of the people commenting. It's like a
cult over there. They claim to be open minded by heaven forbid you
disagree with their precious site or one of their editors/super
posters. Sometimes the commenters on that site are so insecure that
any time you offer constructive criticism on the site they freak the
hell out and just say, "well, you can just leave!"

The comments on the post about the incident are great. Mainly because
the commenters are such fangirls its nauseating.

By the way, I'm a female (who is a racial minority and very liberal)
and I think they're overly PC on that site at times. For example,
there was a post about a father and daughter who had a baby together.
There were actually comments that were like, "you know, we shouldn't
judge them just because our society believes its wrong." Really? What
society is cool with father daughter incest? Also, I love how they
(editors/commenters) get really mad at people who are "judgmental" but
then turn around and are that way themselves.

Yet, I can't bring myself to unsubscribe...

Ugh, Jezebel. I'm glad I got that off my chest.
posted by Waitwhat at 8:31 AM on July 10, 2008 [2 favorites]


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