Being Productive on Salvia

September 14, 2008 2:15 PM

Driving on Salvia, from the series Being Productive on Salvia. Previously
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 (134 comments total)

Banning Salvia for pharma research because people are acting stupidly.
posted by fixedgear at 2:27 PM on September 14, 2008

Pretty funny...I have to go to space right now!

I was worried at first.
posted by schyler523 at 2:29 PM on September 14, 2008

Ugh. . Watching these dipshits abuse Salvia is really disconcerting . Aside from the fact that it seems like they have no idea what they're playing around with, they're drawing negative attention to it, which will probably lead to it being outlawed. Thanks a lot.
posted by Liquidwolf at 2:29 PM on September 14, 2008 [8 favorites]

Weird. I woke up to this headline on the Toronto Sun today, and now this post.

I remember everyone talking about/trying salvia, like, 4 or 5 years ago. But I haven't even thought of it since then. Is it making a comeback, or am I just out of the substance loop?

Funny video, btw. I got confused at the beginning when he mentioned practicing k-turns, wondering how many drugs is this guy gonna take before driving!?
posted by mannequito at 2:32 PM on September 14, 2008

I admit that I used to do a lot of the 'soft' drugs. I smoked tons of pot, occasionally hash. I dropped acid about 5 times (and I didn't really enjoy it any of the times, but I kept hoping for better). I smoked a joint laced with coke (though I didn't know it until *after* I smoked it). I enjoyed mushrooms, but got them rarely.

I hear a lot of discussion of salvia being a 'visionary' drug, but when I see the videos I see the same kind of idiots that ultimately turned me away from smoking pot. While I'd love to expand my mental horizons again, I can't see, by the video evidence, salvia being any better for that than pot was.

Perhaps someone can enlighten me on why it has this reputation?
posted by Kickstart70 at 2:32 PM on September 14, 2008

Perhaps someone can enlighten me on why it has this reputation?

It is visionary, especially in the higher concentrated extracts. It's an entheogen and had a "personality" to it, in a similar sense that the tryptamines do. It's really a sacred plant and deserves thoughtful responsible use. The mexicans having been using this way for many years.
It ain't no party weed, these fools give it bad image.
posted by Liquidwolf at 2:36 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

ROFL!! That gasp when he looked up. *wipes tears

Never heard of this salvia stuff before. What is it?
posted by nickyskye at 2:39 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]

Space cat. On my windshield. In space.
posted by acro at 2:50 PM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]

It's really a sacred plant and deserves thoughtful responsible use.

Watching these dipshits abuse Salvia is really disconcerting . Aside from the fact that it seems like they have no idea what they're playing around with, they're drawing negative attention to it

In other words saliva , like your favorite band, was cool so very long ago when MeFites did it, but now it's passe.
posted by phrontist at 2:51 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]

Giving attention to this gross abuse only hastens the demise of free access to a drug that has incredible benefits to those who approach it with patience and respect. Please, no more.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 2:52 PM on September 14, 2008

Add me to the list of mefites that decry the idiotic abuse of this drug. My experience was to use it as a mind expansion...where I was being watched by someone *not* tripping. It was intense and brief. It was NOT something I would want to use to party. I was connected in my mind to the universe but wasn't able to really interact with other people. Hence, ya gotta be nuts to think it's a party drug.
idiotas
get offa my lawn! bah
posted by Librarygeek at 2:56 PM on September 14, 2008

To anyone that's smoked the stronger stuff, (10-20x), even the title of this video is high comedy, because the notion of doing ANYTHING on Salvia is absurd.

When I smoked it, I laid down, shut my eyes and was INSTANTLY teleported to a world that was like 100 Disneylands stacked on top of one another, dripping with lights and movement, with massive walls of Rubik's cube/Lego men doing an interlocking, morphing dance.

It was a HUGE party, with beings of every variety dancing and bopping to the music, and the ones who noticed me seemed amused that a human would be there. There was a massive sign in the distance that read "Welcome to M'thylzzebek".

I was absolutely shocked at this, and opened my eyes. The room was still there, no distortions.

Closed my eyes again and bam, there I was again. The creatures motioned for me to come and dance with them, and I became aware of a massive sidewards motion, a pulling sensation. There was a "gravity well" to my immediate left, and I did my best to avoid it.

It seemed to last for about a half hour, but in our dimension only six or seven minutes had passed. I was absolutely back to normal in twenty more, I also felt about 20 IQ points smarter, and was in great spirits for the next several weeks.

As wild as this sounds, it doesn't begin to describe it. I'd say it was the most massive and humbling experience of my life.

So yeah, no driving.
posted by chronkite at 2:59 PM on September 14, 2008 [23 favorites]

That was very funny. Timing is everything.
posted by languagehat at 3:00 PM on September 14, 2008

I've heard that salvia is the only drug you decrease your tolerance to the more you do.

In most of the videos it was clear that there was a camera man watching him. Just because you call tripping mind expansion doesn't make your experience any different from his.
posted by Suparnova at 3:01 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

How is this gross abuse? He didn't intend to actually drive the car.

100 Disneylands stacked on top of one another, dripping with lights and movement, with massive walls of Rubik's cube/Lego men doing an interlocking, morphing dance.

Yep, this drug sounds like it is purely for grim-faced philosophers and is not amusing at all.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:04 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

In other words saliva , like your favorite band, was cool so very long ago when MeFites did it, but now it's passe.

I heard you the first time.
Nope it's not passe, quite the opposite. I'd just like to not see it become illegal? All it takes is a couple hysterical parents to ruin for the rest of us. Get it?
posted by Liquidwolf at 3:05 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

While I'd love to expand my mental horizons again, I can't see, by the video evidence, salvia being any better for that than pot was.

That's like looking at the wino on the corner and deciding to swear off Communion.

Look, I'm not evangelical about the drug, or about any drug. I don't think it's an experience everyone needs to have, or needs to understand. I don't even think the way drugs are used should be "controlled." But salvia is a drug that rewards a still mind and methodical exploration with incredible, almost unbearably powerful experiences. Unfortunately that doesn't make for good television or a compelling 150 word news item. Every time stuff like this gets exposure, more and more letters are written to city councilmembers, supreme court justices, and state representatives (many of whom are as ignorant about salvia as the kids in these videos).

It's not about what's cool, or what's obnoxious, or even what's harmful. It's about our inability as individuals to appraise the value of anything in its own context. In America, it's got to be medicinal, something to get fucked up with, or both -- otherwise it's worthless. As if the plant kingdom came in only a handful of flavors.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 3:06 PM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]

It's really a sacred plant and deserves thoughtful responsible use.

Sacred? Sacred?

It is a plant, no?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:08 PM on September 14, 2008

It is a plant, no?

Yes it's a plant. Are you having a hard time understanding how a plant can be considered "sacred" is that it?
posted by Liquidwolf at 3:11 PM on September 14, 2008

I just asked a pal for his first experience...

"the first time i did salvia, the room started going through a radial blur beginning from my seat. the ceiling opened up in a small spot in which a toothless vampire named count pushera came down and started tickling me and trying to remove me from my chair. i clung on the chair for dear life while i laughed hysterically. through a tape delay infinite echo i heard bouncing through the concrete walls, 'come to pushera, it will be fun'. while it was funny, and horrifying, i really wanted to just stay in my chair because i had no idea what a toothless vampire had in store for me. after coming down, i did it again immediately after at a higher dose. the screen on my laptop mutated and i had gone into another dimension where the window was my laptop. i was talking to people on aim from a cartoon boat ala steamboat willie colorized. i looked to the front and nobody was driving. i giggled and noticed that i was removed from my body in some kind of third person camera in a cartoon world. things returned to normal and i sighed.
posted by chronkite at 3:17 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

Yeah. Sacred plant? Like, what, holy beets? Spiritual salad?

It's a plant. Just like the coca plant, from which cocaine is made. Poppies, from which heroin is made. The, uh, methamphetamine tree from which crank is made. Well, okay, I made that last one up.

Taking salvia is not some metaphysical right of passage. It's not a message from God. It's people getting fucked up in a way that they like to get fucked up. That doesn't make it radically different from people who like to smoke a joint in the basement while eating Doritos. Or people who like to get smashed downing brewskis at the sports bar. Or people who like to party all night grinding to techno while hopped up on MDMA or speed.

Can we get over this "my drugs are SPIRITUAL, man, but yours are dangerous and irresponsible!" thing please? It's not helpful.
posted by Justinian at 3:18 PM on September 14, 2008 [21 favorites]

It is visionary, especially in the higher concentrated extracts. It's an entheogen and had a "personality" to it, in a similar sense that the tryptamines do. It's really a sacred plant and deserves thoughtful responsible use. The mexicans having been using this way for many years.
It ain't no party weed, these fools give it bad image.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 3:23 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]

The problem is not that some people are using salvia to have fun and ruining it for 'serious' users (whatever that means). That's blaming the wrong people.

The problem is that people want to ban something basically because people use it recreationally (period). "Oh my god, a drug people enjoy taking! Ban it!" That attitude is the problem, not silly users.

Like alcohol, punish people who use it in dangerous ways (like a hypothetical person actually trying to drive on it -- though it's hard to imagine they'd make it out of the driveway), and lay off everyone else - recreational, medical, spiritual, whatever users.
posted by wildcrdj at 3:25 PM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]

Sacred? Sacred?

It is a plant, no?

Well, anything that doesn't require its own real estate deal is sacred in my book.
...what, not quite as tangible as the new Burger King in Compton?

Yeah. Sacred plant? Like, what, holy beets? Spiritual salad?

Yeah. We're priveleged fucks.
posted by Monstrous Moonshine at 3:26 PM on September 14, 2008

Can we get over this "my drugs are SPIRITUAL, man, but yours are dangerous and irresponsible!"

First off, Who said yours were dangerous and irresponsible? Second, if you think all drugs are the same and getting fucked up is getting fucked up , then you're wrong, comparing beer with weed or salvia is a far far stretch- that's just a fact . Third, how do you know what is or isn't a message from god or what's spiritual or isn't.

You're just reacting to what you perceive as some drug snobbery.
posted by Liquidwolf at 3:30 PM on September 14, 2008 [7 favorites]

mind expansion... intense and brief... connected in my mind to the universe INSTANTLY teleported to a world that was like 100 Disneylands stacked on top of one another, dripping with lights and movement, with massive walls of Rubik's cube/Lego men doing an interlocking, morphing dance... a HUGE party, with beings of every variety dancing and bopping to the music... I also felt about 20 IQ points smarter, and was in great spirits for the next several weeks.

As wild as this sounds, it doesn't begin to describe it. I'd say it was the most massive and humbling experience of my life.

omg, this stuff sounds incredible. That, typical garden plant salvia?! huh. Wonders never cease. Looked up a couple of books and sites:

Salvia, usage with videos.

Sage Spirit: Salvia Divinorum and the Entheogenic Experience by Martin W. Ball

Salvia Divinorum: Shamanic Plant Medicine by Shaahin Cheyene

Legal status in various places

2008 World Psychedelic Forum in Basel, Switzerland
posted by nickyskye at 3:32 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

Party at Nicky's house!
posted by vronsky at 3:34 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

I've tried salvia a few times, and the lady doesn't like me :(

I've used the plant itself and extracts. no dice.

That said, I really am getting pissed about these fucks who think it's funny to do stupid shit on drugs on video and post them. I hope your ass gets busted if/when it becomes illegal. *sigh* it's like the 00s version of the 60s and Leary and the Acid Tests, only with youtube and all the retardedness that entails.

I heard the Goog is going to try to stop people posting drug usage videos per agreement with Lieberman or something. Yah know, maybe that's not such a bad idea. I hate the infringement of speech, but if it keeps this shit away from prying eyes, maybe hysteria will be slower to build... maybe.
posted by symbioid at 3:35 PM on September 14, 2008

Second, if you think all drugs are the same and getting fucked up is getting fucked up , then you're wrong,

Well, no, I don't think they are exactly the same. I think that none is morally superior to another which is your rather outrageous position.

It's like you came in claiming that being able to hit a major league fastball makes you morally superior to only being able to drive a golf ball 350 yards. I am not claiming those are the same thing; I'm saying that holding one up as some spiritual magnificence and the other as mere frippery is offensive, deluded, and stupid.

Third, how do you know what is or isn't a message from god

oooo, yes, GOD gave us salvia! Salvia and Pabst Blue Ribbon! Thanks God!
posted by Justinian at 3:36 PM on September 14, 2008

Bingo Pajama will be dropping by with some holy beets for the spiritual salad any moment now
posted by mannequito at 3:38 PM on September 14, 2008

chronkite,

You put into words what I have been struggling to do for the better part of two years now. The massive walls of color did have a lego feel to them, but I took them as lego train cars whizzing past. I too was at a party, and wearing beads for some unexplained reason. The beads became so heavy, I could barely keep my neck from falling into my lap. I took them off.

Your friend's out of body experience is all too familiar as well. A friend of mine who smoked it immediately before me grabbed his own hand and traced his arm back to his torso to make sure that it was still connected to his body. Strange how many of these experiences are very similar.

The video doesn't give a sense of what salvia is really like, but it is quite funny. I really enjoyed the gardening one as well.
posted by clearly at 3:41 PM on September 14, 2008

was INSTANTLY teleported to a world that was like 100 Disneylands stacked on top of one another

Having grown up near Disneyland, this sounds absolutely nightmarish to me.

Overlarge tourists chomping on smelly cigars while shouting at their weeping youngsters?

NO THANKS
posted by potsmokinghippieoverlord at 3:44 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]

oooo, yes, GOD gave us salvia! Salvia and Pabst Blue Ribbon! Thanks God!

You're so angry you've failed to keep your argument consistent.

Dude, just assume that everyone else on Meta is Atheist/Reluctant Agnostic and that natural phenomena that don't kill us are to be revered.
posted by Monstrous Moonshine at 3:45 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

Music at the party, Sally, Salvia rap with Alex Grey lightshow, whoo hoo!
posted by nickyskye at 3:47 PM on September 14, 2008

Salvia: Wear a tie before using.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 3:49 PM on September 14, 2008

Duggies +my lawn = get the fuck off
posted by unSane at 3:53 PM on September 14, 2008

*Druggies (yeah I was trippin')
posted by unSane at 3:54 PM on September 14, 2008

"Duggies", lol
posted by nickyskye at 4:01 PM on September 14, 2008

"A person who pretends to hit someone but instead uses it as an excuse to grab thier dicks."

Sounds like my weird uncle duggy.
posted by vronsky at 4:17 PM on September 14, 2008

Hey, beer was sacred once too... pretty much anything that fucks you up was guaranteed sacred at some point.
posted by Billegible at 4:20 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]

Some people say: object A is incredibly important to me and should be treated with respect according to me.

Some other people say: object A is just part of a specific category in an arbitrary classification of natural objects and therefore there is NO way that it should be incredibly important to you or anybody for that matter.

As a general rule, I try to side against the side that likes to define something for everything else. Like gay marriage:

Some people say: I love person A and he's incredibly important to me and even though I'm a guy and he's a guy I wanna marry him.

Some other people say: A guy loving a guy is just against my definition of marriage and so therefore there is no way that it should be allowed for you or anybody for that matter.

This is a comparison of methodology, not the specific argument per se, but just saying -- those of you who argue against NOT-HERMITOSIST and Liquidwolf, it's a pretty narrow method to argue a pretty narrow view.

Taking salvia is not some metaphysical right of passage. It's not a message from God. It's people getting fucked up in a way that they like to get fucked up. That doesn't make it radically different from people who like to smoke a joint in the basement while eating Doritos. Or people who like to get smashed downing brewskis at the sports bar. Or people who like to party all night grinding to techno while hopped up on MDMA or speed.

For sake of consistency, I hope you feel the same way about music, art, dance, video games, books, poetry, elegant solutions to pure-math problems, etc?
posted by suedehead at 4:29 PM on September 14, 2008 [11 favorites]

Druggies +my lawn = get the fuck off

Soon as I've finished picking these 'shrooms, OK?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:32 PM on September 14, 2008

Justinian: Those plants you listed - with the exception of the crank tree - have all been used for spiritual purposes by people for hundreds of years, as has been marijuana, psilocybin, peyote (and its extract, mescaline) and others. Salvia is among those plants. The advent of using these substances for anything outside of medicinal, practical or spiritual purposes is a recent idea. I personally can't see anything wrong with using the relatively harmless substances (cocaine not being one of them) as a tool for spiritual enlightenment.

I think what puts a lot of people off about people using drugs like salvia to "party" is that it does bring in negative media attention and calls for prohibition of what is a legal substance. Also, it's a case of the right tools for the right job. You wouldn't use an air hammer to hang a picture in your living room. Salvia debilitates you temporarily, but I've still watched people take a bong hit of it on top of several beers or whatever else, and then attempt to climb a flight of stairs at the goading of their friends so they can watch him struggle to stay upright, but invariably fall over and tumble down the stairs. Sure, there might be some drug snobbery in that sentiment, but I haven't seen anyone (in this thread anyway) say that someone else's drugs are dangerous but their drugs are awesome.

In any event, hope that clears a few things up. I personally wouldn't touch it, as a matter of personal taste, but I see nothing wrong with using a substance like this in the hopes of coming away from the experience with something positive.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:35 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

This is a comparison of methodology, not the specific argument per se, but just saying -- those of you who argue against NOT-HERMITOSIST and Liquidwolf, it's a pretty narrow method to argue a pretty narrow view.

Hang on a second, suedehead. You need to re-read Liquidwolf's first post in this thread. What he's arguing is that because this drug is important to him, people shouldn't be allowed to take it any other way.

Isn't that like someone saying 'Because I prefer my sex to happen within the confines of a married heterosexual relationship, men who like casual sex with men just should just stop having it. Sex is a sacred, God-given thing, and these abusers of sex will bring down the repressive state upon us all.'

On re-reading, maybe that's overstating his view though. Maybe he's just arguing for a policy of Salvia: Don't Ask, Don't Tell?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:43 PM on September 14, 2008

These videos are exactly what I expected. Except that someone was smoking it more than once.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 4:45 PM on September 14, 2008

I think what puts a lot of people off about people using drugs like salvia to "party" is that it does bring in negative media attention and calls for prohibition of what is a legal substance.

That was my original point, the recklessness of kids using it and broadcasting it makes it look scary to parents and the authorities which could make it illegal.
. I'm used to people laughing and getting irate when the word "sacred" is used in relation to a drug. That's a typical response. I don't take things too seriously myself so I understand the mockery, but I've had enough personal experiences to make me use the word to describe it, not to mention the indigenous historical usage in that way.
S'all I'm saying for now.
posted by Liquidwolf at 4:49 PM on September 14, 2008

For those bashing the sacred thing. hmm. Giving this a think. First of all, I'm non-theistic. Having had "cosmic unity" types of experiences, as well as a variety of types of pleasurable highs, like that of wine or hard booze, I can say that the spiritual type of high is definitely a different head space than "I'd hit that", which can be totally fun but just different.

Tracing the Synapses of Our Spirituality

[O]ur brains are “hard-wired” to permit three kinds of extroverted activities: empathy, bonding, and self-transcendence.

There are interconnected parts of the brain that can experience cosmic unity. It can be electrically stimulated in a lab and the person feels cosmic unity or what could be described as "divine" or oceanic bliss. Not a "God spot" but a number of areas that work together. I think it's in the parietal lobe of the brain.

The SPECT images also reveal that there is reduction of activity in the parietal lobe, at the top, rear part of the brain. The parietal lobe is also known as the orientation association area (OAA) since it controls our sense of space. It is also responsible for marking the sharp distinction between self and no-self. The OAA requires continuous sensory inputs to do its job, and is therefore always active. However, during moments of intense meditation, no activity was observed in the OAA, implying that sensory inputs to this area had ceased, leaving the brain with no information to process. During this transcendental state of consciousness, the OAA is dormant and the boundaries between the self and other worldly things get dissolved. A state of absolute calmness and contentment is attained - the Self appears to be united with God.

And there's a part of the brain that experiences pleasure of a hedonistic kind, the nucleus accumbens, which is stimulated by sex, certain drugs and food.

In addition to cocaine and amphetamine, almost every recreational drug has been shown to increase dopamine levels in the nucleus accumbens.

Honestly, I have no idea what this salvia stuff does or what part of the brain it impacts but chemicals do cause people to have different types of experiences. And one of those experiences may, by some, be thought of or perceived as sacred.
posted by nickyskye at 4:51 PM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]

OK, all that said, the look on the cat's face was pretty funny.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:53 PM on September 14, 2008

Sacred, my ass. They liked to get fucked up, so they made up some religious bullshit so they had an excuse.
posted by Arch_Stanton at 5:06 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

It's been alluded to in this thread, but the thing that blows me away about salvia (second-hand; I've not tried) is how quick the experience is. I find that bizarre.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 5:24 PM on September 14, 2008

Durn Bronzefist, you're right. That's such a good point. Watching the videos the wham came on in 20 seconds or so and then, from comments in this thread, it seems to last intensely for 20 minutes, then disappear but have vague sensation of wellbeing residue for weeks.That's really quite unlike any psychedelic I've heard of.
posted by nickyskye at 5:29 PM on September 14, 2008

One of the long term side effects of salvia must be the desire to re-tell salvia-related anecdotes, as I apparently can't stop mentioning that my salvia dreams is where I'm a viking... ship.
posted by Item at 5:34 PM on September 14, 2008

The video was funny, it makes me simultaneously relieved and regretful that I didn't have a video camera around when my frends and I were doing that kind of shit every weekend (though not Salvia, that looks kind of scary, actually).
posted by empath at 5:40 PM on September 14, 2008

I've smoked Salvia Divinorum three or four times. It really is transporting. Intense, short-duration hallucinogen. My first time, I "was" a caramel on an assembly line in a caramel factory, asnd then the conveyor belt dropped me into Super Mario Brothers World 1 Level 2. The last time, I had "the green stranger" experience, before I'd ever read that it existed, and I find that "personality" fucking freaky - that many people halluicnate a similar thing really disturbs me, and that it happened TO me? WTF.

I still want to get some cuttings to grow before it gets scheduled, but the last time we had some, the cats ate them!!
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 5:47 PM on September 14, 2008

Look, I am in no way, shape or form pro-Prohibition, but can we please stop calling things spiritual? It's all just chemicals in your brain, man.
posted by adamdschneider at 5:52 PM on September 14, 2008

Huh. He's not smoking with a butane lighter. Anybody here know the difference in experience? I've only used butane.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 5:54 PM on September 14, 2008

Honestly, I have no idea what this salvia stuff does or what part of the brain it impacts but chemicals do cause people to have different types of experiences. And one of those experiences may, by some, be thought of or perceived as sacred.

Interestingly enough it's a kappa-opioid agonist. Which is interesting because no other recreational hallucinogen operates on that receptor. The hallucinogenic properties of opioids used for their pain-killing properties are probably mediated through kappa-opioid agonism as well.

It's been alluded to in this thread, but the thing that blows me away about salvia (second-hand; I've not tried) is how quick the experience is. I find that bizarre.

It's quick when smoked, yes. It's a much longer experience (a couple of hours, perhaps) when it's used as a sublingual tincture (this is actually closer to the original shamanic use, in which leaves are chewed and held under the tongue).

Sacred, my ass. They liked to get fucked up, so they made up some religious bullshit so they had an excuse.

Well, yes. But getting fucked up has been part of plenty of religious rituals over the centuries (possibly for the reason you state). Getting fucked-up can be sacred. Nobody ever said sacred had to be sober.
posted by xchmp at 5:56 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

So. Did you ever move on to Senior Kabaddi Champion?

No?

Too much salvia?
posted by netbros at 5:56 PM on September 14, 2008

quite unlike any psychedelic I've heard of

sounds comparable to dmt, at least in terms of speed/duration

What's the green stranger phenomenon?
posted by mannequito at 5:57 PM on September 14, 2008

adamschneider: I don't have a problem with people viewing "mind-expanding" drug experiences as spiritual. If you don't believe in spirituality at all, okay, you don't, but if you want to productively use that concept, adventures in altering conceptions of "self" with n brain chemistry hax are a fine place to start. Many people I know come away from their first psilocybin trip wondering why we can't feel that carefree and full of awe all the time. I certainly held on to that feeling as deliberately as possible.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 5:59 PM on September 14, 2008

I'm thinking of making a video about posting comments to MetaFilter on salvia. First, because I think it would be instructive for the community, and second, because I think it will provoke a lively debate that would laaaa aiii g[na;b jkllllll gfi9=-j slkv h9ols gloopy fisssssshies...
posted by twoleftfeet at 5:59 PM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]

Nobody ever said sacred had to be sober.

Except, you know, Puritans.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 6:00 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

Posting on Metafilter on Salvia

First, find some salvia, a Metafilter thread, and something to discuss. I have some salvia, this is the Metafilter thread about salvia, and while posting on Metafilter on salvia I will discuss the salvia.

One should be familiar both with posting on Metafilter and with using salvia before attempting. If necessary, reacquaint oneself with the Metafilter guidelines and with the concepts of set and setting. Let's begin the demonstration:

1. I am putting a pinch of 10x salvia in my glass pipe.
2. If you enjoy music while using salvia or while posting on Metafilter, put some on. I decided on some Low.
3. I am about to inhale the salvia, taking care to torch it well for best vaporization and to inhale deeply.
4. I am now holding it in as long as possible.

5. It's doing weird things with my afterimages, as it does, and now irt is very hard to right thought i still want to fix errors

this is a very odd drig. ,etafilter. The errors were because my damn fingsers keep falling one over due to drugs. The experience really doesn't go to the otherside ... it is a drug that feels to have a personality though thats bullshit. Sweaty a bit. Seemed like my keyboard keys were a little on top of each other.

6. Now the salvia has run out and I shall post the comment and put away my salvia and pipe.

(Seriousness goes in parentheses: Yes, this was for reals. Commenting on Metafilter while on salvia was pretty meh, though. I found attempting to type was overly distracting from the salvia and it was still hard to type, as you can tell from half my trip report being about trying to type. I had hoped typing wouldn't have failed so much and you would have gotten a much funnier drug-addled raving. Trying to fix typos as I went, which is my normal typing habit, slowed me down a lot, though I did fix most of them - 5. hasn't been edited after the salvia. "The experience really doesn't go to the otherside" is a remark on how certain ineffable aspects of the salvia experience seem to stay there. Not only can I not describe them to you, I can't quite describe them to my sober self. I'll remember and be familiar with them the next time I'm on salvia, but not right now. "keyboard keys a little on top of each other" meant that the keyboard seemed to be much more vertically oriented than usual and the keys seemed to be intersecting each other much more than the rules of nature allow.

As you can probably tell from how I just decided to do a salvia trip for a joke, I'm definitely on the side of not assigning sacredness or importance to my drugs. You definitely gotta take drugs seriously in terms of safety, set, setting, law trouble, etc., and they definitely can be used in ways therapeutic, visionary, creative, etc. I see it as an odd Puritanical streak among some druggies when they disparage that someone is having fun! on drugs! and not being serious! I especially don't believe in god, I don't believe in "spiritual," and I don't believe in so while salvia does make me feel a sense of presence and even once hear a voice I take them no more seriously than presences and voices in my dreams. Especially as the stuff the salvia-voice said to me was pretty damn stupid.

I think I summed it up with, as I wrote while at the most intense part of this trip, "this is a very odd drig. ,etafilter." If you haven't done it and are thinking of doing it, certainly go ahead, but do your reading first and keep in mind if I had taken more than a pinch I probably wouldn't have typed anything, so start small.)

Watching the videos the wham came on in 20 seconds or so and then, from comments in this thread, it seems to last intensely for 20 minutes, then disappear but have vague sensation of wellbeing residue for weeks.

In my experience, smoked salvia comes on in 20-30 seconds, but only lasts 3-5 minutes. Some aftereffects like catching minor visual distortions in the corner of my eye for an hour or two, but no real "afterglow." I haven't done all that much, though - I find it more weird and interesting than fun - and I've really never gone all out with dosage so mileages will certainly vary.

Huh. He's not smoking with a butane lighter. Anybody here know the difference in experience? I've only used butane.

I've always used a normal lighter, turned the little knob all the way up and really torched it. I can't make a comparison from experience, but I think it's just different dosage efficiencies.
posted by Sockpuppet For Naughty Things at 6:01 PM on September 14, 2008 [10 favorites]

I tried salvia once. It gave me a whopping headache, and I didn't even get high.

Maybe I did it wrong.
posted by zardoz at 6:04 PM on September 14, 2008

wondering why we can't feel that carefree and full of awe all the time.

I know a guy who felt similarly and made an attempt to just keep eating mushrooms and keep tripping with an eventual goal of "indefinitely." Doesn't work.
posted by Sockpuppet For Naughty Things at 6:10 PM on September 14, 2008

Sacred, my ass. They liked to get fucked up, so they made up some religious bullshit so they had an excuse.

Look, I am in no way, shape or form pro-Prohibition, but can we please stop calling things spiritual? It's all just chemicals in your brain, man.

Gosh, you guys with your daring skepticism have awed and astounded me! I have never heard such viewpoints expressed on MetaFilter before, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter so I can see them repeated over and over and over! Because I'm sure if they're repeated like the blows of a head on a cell wall, eventually everyone will see the light and realize IT'S ALL BULLSHIT, MAAAN!

And next year, God willing, you'll be juniors.
posted by languagehat at 6:11 PM on September 14, 2008 [5 favorites]

mannequito: hallucinations that feature a "green stranger" or "goddess" seem to be unusually common. I had one, brief though it was, before hearing of this pattern, of a green figure offering me something, and when I looked close at what it was, it was a green figure offering me something, ad infinitum till I sobered up.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 6:14 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

> Sacred plant? Like, what, holy beets? Spiritual salad?

Hey, show a little respect do0d. You don't want to worship just spaghetti, do you? He needs a salad.

One of the better things the Maharishi ever said: "Wouldn't it be just like the West to find consciousness through a material?"
posted by jfuller at 6:16 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

mannequito: hallucinations that feature a "green stranger" or "goddess" seem to be unusually common. I had one, brief though it was, before hearing of this pattern, of a green figure offering me something, and when I looked close at what it was, it was a green figure offering me something, ad infinitum till I sobered up.

So yours is female too? I've never gotten the full apparition, but the presence has generally "felt" female and the one time I got the voice it was female. Interestingly, this time the presence "felt" male and it was laughing at me. In a friendly fashion, but I would have just laughed even more at the hilarity if this imaginary I'm-fucked-up presence had been laughing at me malevolently.

I find it very interesting that the hallucinations are this similar between people (though I'm not a pure data point, having read of the "goddess" before experiencing the "presence" as female), and also that DMT (haven't managed to try yet) seems to cause many people to see machine elves.
posted by Sockpuppet For Naughty Things at 6:23 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

Ambrosia Voyeur: Not even the puritans said sacred had to be sober.

From Wikipedia's article on Puritanism

Puritan Laws in fact regarded alcohol as a gift of god and demonstrated the subtle difference between a governments punishment responsibility to punish sin vs. removing temptation. Early on the New England laws banning the sale of Alcohol to Indians were appealed because it was “not fit to deprive Indians of any lawfull comfort aloweth to all men by the use of wine.” One reason Laws banning the practice of individuals toasting each other was that it led to wasting Gods gift of beer and wine.

posted by xchmp at 6:43 PM on September 14, 2008

Stop posting this shit. Spirituality/non-spirituality aside, this sort of post just gives fodder to the hysterical prohibitionists who (I'm startled to have to remind you) have the political upper-hand these days.
posted by treepour at 6:54 PM on September 14, 2008

Interesting about the green stranger experience. Wonder if these are ancient archetypes, like Green Man or Green Tara? Wonder what part of the brain is associated with experiencing green people?

I see it as an odd Puritanical streak among some druggies when they disparage that someone is having fun! on drugs! and not being serious! I especially don't believe in god, I don't believe in "spiritual,"

Sockpuppet For Naughty Things, (a condom with French tickler :) ?), enjoyed reading your trip, got the cadence nicely from your writing. When I came across your sentence above I suddenly realized that the term "spiritual" to some might seem fuddy duddy, religious. ugh. How awful.

For the most part, when the term is used popularly, it sounds syrupy and flaky to me. At the same time I've had what I only can term, spiritual experiences, which weren't fuddy duddy, flaky or syrupy. I wish there were a less bs-loaded word than spiritual. I think the bs apect comes from the old duality of body (meaty flesh, bad, vulgar, inferior) and mind (ethereal, superior, angelic).

I don't "believe" in spiritual either. It's not an object, it's an adjective for a kind of wow transcendence, a warm-hearted bliss, it's hard to describe. In the movie Contact, when the atheist scientist sees the galaxy from the space ship, is full of wordless wonder/awe and she says, "They should have sent a poet." I think of that as a spiritual experience. Not fuddy duddy, not finger waggy, not do-gooder but expansive bliss, which includes a deep and satisfying sensuality, a whole mind-body rush that doesn't feel materialistic but has, what might be called, transcendence.

Gee willikers. I haven't talked about this stuff with anybody in decades. Such old hippy terms. It's funny.

Contributing this ayahuasca DMT video chestnut to the thread, Flashback.
posted by nickyskye at 7:00 PM on September 14, 2008

After a week of Sarah Palin hoopla, finding out a friend has cancer and David Foster Wallace's suicide, I really, really, really needed that laugh. So thanks.
posted by tula at 7:14 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

/derail
aww, sorry tula. This might help you with your friend.

Glad you laughed.
posted by nickyskye at 7:24 PM on September 14, 2008

I wish there were a less bs-loaded word than spiritual.

I definitely get you. I've seen "spiritual" used to mean deep, meaningful, etc. and I certainly "believe" in these type of experiences including that they can sometimes be facilitated by drugs. I see it more often used for vague new-agey stuff and things like people thinking the salvia goddess is an actual independent entity, which is what I don't believe in.

I meant to mention this before: The title "Driving on Salvia" reminded me of something I actually witnessed just the other day, people Dancing on Nitrous. My skills with that only extend to Standing Up Without Falling Down on Nitrous, so that impressed me a bit.
posted by Sockpuppet For Naughty Things at 7:31 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

The White Stripes video "Seven Nation Army" is a salvia trip.
That is all I have to contribute to this discussion.
posted by GoingToShopping at 7:36 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

I really am getting pissed about these fucks who think it's funny to do stupid shit on drugs on video and post them.
posted by YoBananaBoy at 7:46 PM on September 14, 2008

Before I read the comments,....


HAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA etc.
posted by humannaire at 7:55 PM on September 14, 2008

I'm just going to lay my salvia knowledge on it. I have smoked it four times. These are all true.

1. What if dinosaurs were true but gravity worked sideways. What if time fluctuated kind of like a record being scratched back and forth and your knowledge of the future was erased too.

2. There is a circus but it is also a dangerous circus I would not trust the man running it. I know he's small but he's still dangerous. I've got to warn the next guy not to get involved with the circus. Well I've done my responsibility as friend let's see if I have any memories about corduroy.

3. I see these reptile scales on the inside of a tube and I'm moving through it. At the end there is silhouette of a man and a boy looking at a sunset. They are definitely hiking. I'm pretty sure that my pillow is a telephone and that god is on the other end. That is silly. And I am going to pay attention and not smother myself.

4. Have you noticed that if you clothes your eyes you can still see your fingers like on the inside of your eyelids. It's pretty cool it's like having xray specs. I wonder if I could do this normally because it's pretty neat. Yeah we can go back to your place if you want. I'm pretty good now. I was.... you know but know I'm pretty good. Oh oh oh what is that? (I chase after an animal) Stop stop it's a skunk. (tip-toeing away) I thought it was probably a beaver but a special beaver and it was... lost.
posted by I Foody at 7:56 PM on September 14, 2008 [12 favorites]

All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours, too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped to create...a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody-or at least some force-is tending the Light at the end of the tunnel.

This is what people are arguing against: the idea that just putting the right substance in your body is a path to "spirituality" or "insight." Sure you might get those things while on drugs, but you have to work for them. No drug can do the work for you. That's the way in which all drugs are the same.
posted by drjimmy11 at 7:58 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

Also, the closest thing I have ever had to a spiritual experience was on Sudafed. No joke. I had a cold, I took some, and dozed off on the couch. When I woke up, I felt awake but not awake. I took a walk outside and everything in my neighborhood seemed new, like I had never seen it before.
posted by drjimmy11 at 8:01 PM on September 14, 2008

languagehat, it sounds like you could use some E. Here, have a pill.

Wait, on second thought, that would make you languagehatE, and I'm getting too much of that vibe from you already.

*kiss*
posted by adamdschneider at 8:02 PM on September 14, 2008

....and: That was beautiful and touchingly hilarious.
posted by humannaire at 8:06 PM on September 14, 2008

Posting on salvia.

*takes hit*

adfhsd3

423t1
34
v1


fv
..
vc
...
cx



xxxxxxxxx
d
f
1234f v1r1
vrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
posted by damn dirty ape at 8:16 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

All those pathetically eager acid freaks etc.

drjimmy11, that whole passage and mentality describes the abuse of a substances, not use. Believe it or not, many -- if not MOST -- modern people who incorporate these drugs into their spiritual practice merely see it as a supplement to the path they walk every day. And most of these people have definitely read Thompson and Kesey etc. and learned tons from the mistakes of that first naive, over-eager generation of American trippers. I don't know ANYONE who has completely substituted drug experiences for other forms of gnosis.

The people in this thread who are "arguing against" using it for spiritual purposes aren't interested in hearing anything like that, though. Minds made up, you will decide what others mean and why you disagree rather than ask questions or respect another's perspective.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 8:26 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

I don't really see how having decided that drug "spirituality" is definitely a bunch of self-deluding bullshit is anymore closed-minded than having decided it definitely is not (and no doubt klangklangston will soon be by to tell me that's why I don't get to have an opinion; love ya, buddy!), but I was mostly responding to the notion that this drug is SRS BIZNESS, and unless you approach it with the reverence of a gateway to God, you're doing it wrong. The notion that there is a received wisdom from on high that dictates how these substances should be used is what I find repugnant. All I was trying to say is, it doesn't matter, do what you like with it.
posted by adamdschneider at 8:41 PM on September 14, 2008

If doing what you like with it involves helping to ensure that neither yourself, nor anyone else, will be able to legally use it for the rest of your lifetimes, then I can only imagine your standpoint on ecological issues.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 8:46 PM on September 14, 2008

Soooooo....

Anyone have links to provide for legit places to acquire said substance? (Google lends many options, but what's tried and true?)
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 8:49 PM on September 14, 2008

Sage Wisdom is run by Daniel Siebert, the botanist who isolated the main compound. That's a good place to get all the info (and salvia) you want.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 8:51 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

You can try to imagine, but from the tone of your comment I'm guessing you'll be wrong. Look, I'm not arguing for these guys. Using something the way you like (as long as you don't imperil others) doesn't necessarily include videotaping yourself doing so and posting it to the internet. I just find the hoary elder bit tiresome. Yes, our ancestors used these plants for spiritual guidance. Then again, they did a lot of things.
posted by adamdschneider at 8:55 PM on September 14, 2008

It depends where you are. Here in Toronto most head shops sell it, and even some convenience stores. Oddly, its the convenience stores that sell the strongest stuff.
posted by mannequito at 9:19 PM on September 14, 2008

*what's the esch tag mean?
posted by nickyskye at 9:24 PM on September 14, 2008

Eschatology?
posted by decagon at 9:29 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm pretty sure most head shops sell it, you gotta ask around.
posted by axltea at 9:30 PM on September 14, 2008

I'm just really glad I hadn't seen someone do it before I tried it. That is pretty atypical, because I tend to like knowing what I'm getting in to. If I had seen any of these before, there's no way I would have tried it. I'm glad I did though.

Within 15 seconds of taking a hit from a bong and holding it in my lungs, I was unaware that I was on drugs. That has never happened to me before. As I exhaled, a stream of blue conveyor belts peeled up from my right side, aligning the faces of my company along the left. My understanding was that I had come to my friend's house that day to "cross over" to this other world. I thought I would be there forever. The most uncomfortable part was coming back into reality over the next 5 minutes. It was a very uncomfortable feeling, and I tried to run out of the backyard to escape the weird vibes. Of course, I had a responsible babysitter who lured me back. He looked like a giant chess piece at the time, mind you.

All in all, it's the most interesting drug I've ever done, but I can see how it's a big concern. Doing it alone is a very bad idea, considering there's a flame involved, and there's the potential to lose touch long before you've safely put away your smoking device. It should be regulated somehow, I think. Chances are if they will just end up criminalizing it once too many dumb kids burn their homes down, or accidentally drown from doing it alone or in a bad setting.

It's unfortunate that teaching abstinence doesn't work so well- we need to empower people with better drug knowledge, so that we don't have to worry so much about this stuff.
HARM REDUCTION!
posted by sunshinesky at 9:32 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

This exact argument is happening simultaneously in the YouTube comments of the link:

it's a divination tool not a legal drug, the fact that you keep referring to it as a 'legal drug' is absolute proof / evidence that you have NO idea what you're doing with it nor its purpose.

Everyone approaches it in their own way, how can you say yours is the best? How do you know salvia doesn't want to be approached with the childish innocence and play a lot of these stoners approach it with? Why must everything be so strict and stern and serious. The soul is not a machine, but a playful spirit that loves.

chiefkief u r one gay fuck salvia is the beast me and my friends we did 80x yesterday it was fuck up but it was sweet plus its the next legal thing 2 sex

people that don't know shouldn't make shit up , it furthers ignorance .salvia is a beautiful plant and should be treated with repect , not just smoke to get high . so many people are lacking souls these days .
posted by Bookhouse at 9:35 PM on September 14, 2008

Oh, my bad. Those are comments from the salvia rap that nickyskye posted. Still, same argument.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:36 PM on September 14, 2008

These videos won't hasten the demise of salvia. This stuff was on it's way to illegal as soon as people started getting fucked up off it, at least in the United States. Toss in a media that plays into the U.S. government's ridiculous war on drugs every chance it gets, and, voila! Goodbye happy smokey times for everyone. Ah well, there's a black market ready and waiting to remove more dollars from the legitimate economy. Sweet.
posted by IvoShandor at 10:13 PM on September 14, 2008

I don't think it's an argument about how one should approach salvia or any hallucinogen. Just that getting stoned on beer, cocaine, heroin or speed doesn't offer similar options to feel that other kind of high, the fantasy, imagination, deeper-parts-of-one's-being kind of high, the transcendence, the spiritual.

There have been times on the beach in the Mediterranean, stoned on Italian wine, skinning dipping in water filled with phosphorescence, looking up at the night sky, filled with shooting stars in August, the water and sky mirror images of each other, that I felt transcendence on wine. It is possible. But hallucinogens do something different to the mind. That's why they call it mind expanding. People don't say coke, speed or booze are mind expanding,

It's not about stopping having fun or taking the fun out of being high, it's about the high having the ability to take someone, should they be so inclined, to another head space.
posted by nickyskye at 10:17 PM on September 14, 2008

I just wanted to post in this thread, even though my username comes from salvia apiana, non-hallucinogenic (at least as far as I know).
posted by salvia at 10:31 PM on September 14, 2008

Wonder if these are ancient archetypes, like Green Man

that Green Man wikipedia links links to another article on "green language" which redirects to Language of the Birds. It is a sign of great wisdom to hear what the birds say.

I suspect the birds say something like this:

First Bird: Hey!

Second Bird: Huh?

First Bird: Check it out! I'm going to crap on this car!

Second Bird: What?

First Bird: I said I AM GOING TO CRAP ON THIS CAR!

Second Bird: Go for it!

(First bird poops)

First and Second Bird together: Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh!

So all you salvia users: if you're going to get high and commune with nature and green people, tell those birds to KNOCK IT OFF!
posted by potsmokinghippieoverlord at 10:37 PM on September 14, 2008

Odin certainly looks high in that painting.
posted by adamdschneider at 10:46 PM on September 14, 2008

/derail
potsmokinghippieoverlord, the Sufi poem, Bird Parliament. Birds can be way smart. (and lovable)
posted by nickyskye at 11:10 PM on September 14, 2008

Anything - whether a drug that causes some massive introspective pulse, a painting, a weeping rock, or even a child that wakes with a 100 page poem memorized and thus not easily placed into our idea of what is possible is sacred to me.

Anything one might consider a stretch by any possible means necessary is sacred.

That said, these youtube salvia trip videos are hilarious and stupid, though something sacred is being used. They'll continue to be that way until someone figures out how to interface the entirety of their internal perception.

But what would be even more stupid would be making anything that could make anyone do anything stupid illegal.

What would be left of the world, really?
posted by phylum sinter at 11:12 PM on September 14, 2008

p.s. the first time i took some i ended up naked in my back yard and made a tiny pyramid out of ketchup packets. both of which i remember fondly and believe made me somehow a better person.
posted by phylum sinter at 11:16 PM on September 14, 2008

The best thing about drugs is the way you can tell yourself jokes.
posted by pracowity at 1:06 AM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]

Look, I am in no way, shape or form pro-Prohibition, but can we please stop calling things spiritual? It's all just chemicals in your brain, man

Just chemicals in your brain? This is a terrible argument. Spend some time learning about the chemicals in your brain. I think you'll find yourself hard pressed not to be overcome by a sense of awe and mystery. The system is a wonder to behold, and, despite the ongoing efforts of some of humankind's most brilliant specimens, we're still quite a way off from putting neurochemistry into some neat little package, easily unwrapped by the cynical brand of atheism that makes folks with more traditional views so rabidly opposed to philosophies that don't come from their desert books.

Chemicals in your brain are sacred if anything thing is, and if you believe nothing's sacred, then you are missing out on one of the most special parts of being alive.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 5:20 AM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]

Motorcycles are sacred. They should be treated with respect, and be ridden responsibly.

Don't go riding while drunk. Enjoy them, though.

"Sacred" things should be treated with respect. Respect is like fear, only not as uncomfortable or paralyzing.

If someone says something is sacred, it means that it's good, powerful, and capable of biting you in the ass. Treat it AS IF it were sacred: Be careful, enjoy it, learn from it, don't overdo it.

Children are also sacred. Don't be drunk around kids. Revere them, learn from them.
posted by krilli at 5:48 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

Feelings? Emotions? It's all just chemicals in your brain. I will not be polite to you - there's no need, it's all just chemicals in your brain, man.
posted by krilli at 5:50 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

I prefer cake.
posted by w0mbat at 6:43 AM on September 15, 2008

I won't talk about my experiences because they are personal and subjective and ridiculously abstract. But I will say that video is an inherently social medium, and salvia is a drug that is inherently isolating; navigating the labyrinthine 11-bit mindspace isn't exactly a party. Anyone attempting to documenting the experience through video, or even attempting to have the full salvia effect while there are others in the room participating in the collective consensus reality, are misguided. (I understand most people will tell you to be safe and use a sitter. I never needed one, and think your setting should approximate an isolation chamber as much as possible, but I guess it's worth mentioning.)

Anyway, now that salvia is becoming so high-profile, I'd like to hear some "salvia music." I mean, music made with marijuana has been ubiquitous since like the 20's, and every other band is described as "like ____ on acid" but salvia has its own texture and delay and drift that should be inspiring a unique kind of art! [Here's my own attempt at making improvisational music while under the salvia spell.]
posted by naju at 7:19 AM on September 15, 2008

I have spent some time learning about the brain, and plan to spend more, and it is indeed a wonder to behold. I don't think this is any grounds, however, for implying that there's some higher, spiritual force at work in this plant, which is what the people I was responding to were doing.

I will not be polite to you - there's no need, it's all just chemicals in your brain, man.

Drugs are, apparently, not exempt from the rule that people respond with fear and aggression whenever their religion is challenged.
posted by adamdschneider at 7:29 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

Kinda surprised we’re having this extended definition problem. It’s not that big a deal.
A “spiritual” experience usually denotes a particular kind or quality of experience, as nickyskye discusses. It need not imply that the person thinks they actually are making a connection with god or with anyone or anything outside of their own head. But some mean it that way. Much like those who fringies who think that in dreams (or perhaps lucid dreams) they are interfacing with “real” people/beings elsewhere, some in the drug spirituality camp think they’re going places outside of their own head, connecting with the/a god, etc. Others do not, and generally point and laugh at the first group. Let’s call them the drug pilgrims.

Then there’s the subset of group #2 that don’t believe you’re getting out of your own head, but find the experience so transformative that they demand respect for the activity regardless. At least the first group was genuinely attaching quasi-religious implications. I don’t see any difference between this latter group and, say, surf nazis who insist on taking the sport “seriously”. “Because it’s life changing, man.” Their defining characteristic is if you’re not approaching it “the right way”, they’d rather you not do it at all. Everyone has a right, if not a duty, to point and laugh at this group, because they’re taking themselves way too damn seriously. Those would be the aforementioned “drug snobs”. Yes, it’s fun to tell them that their life changer of choice is someone else’s bong hit or beer bash, just to see them fume.

As you can probably tell, I have little problem with the drug pilgrims – as I think they’re really no more or no less deluded than any other religious type. Though having someone constantly extol the religious potential of weed can get really tiresome. The drug snobs I have a significant problem with but, whatever, dude. You build your altar and I’ll build my playground.

But what would be even more stupid would be making anything that could make anyone do anything stupid illegal.

The issue here is, like so many things today, of moral condemnation. Which is of course about artificial distinctions, so the beer/nicotine/caffeine/prozac you take a hit of today doesn’t count. Pschedelics as a whole are on the black list. Stupifying you is apparently just fine. Any kind of hallucination is not.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:39 AM on September 15, 2008

Can illegal drugs help depression?
Ketamine for depression and LSD for improving brain power; meet the lady who funds the science that no-one else will do, Amanda Feilding is on a mission to unlock the secrets of the mind

Spiritual is, imo, an experience; religion is an attempt at a containing spiritual experience mixed with social mores of the day, often used to try and control people, impose fear using a codified system of morality.
posted by nickyskye at 8:07 AM on September 15, 2008

I will not be polite to you - there's no need, it's all just chemicals in your brain, man.

Drugs are, apparently, not exempt from the rule that people respond with fear and aggression whenever their religion is challenged.

:D Favorited.

Very Important BTW: I WILL be polite to you! Despite what I said. What I meant is that even though everything is just chemicals in the brain, it only makes sense when you "pretend" that there's something bigger going on - whatever the definition.

I will respect the chemicals in your brain.
posted by krilli at 8:07 AM on September 15, 2008

Feelings? Emotions? It's all just chemicals in your brain. I will not be polite to you - there's no need, it's all just chemicals in your brain, man.

Wow! It's that simple?

All the philosophical questions of humankind can now be laid to rest!
posted by humannaire at 8:18 AM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]

Then there’s the subset of group #2 that don’t believe you’re getting out of your own head, but find the experience so transformative that they demand respect for the activity regardless.

“Because it’s life changing, man.”

Well, this isn't exactly fair to this subset. I think more accurately, there's a group of people that don't believe you're getting out of your own head, but still believe that it provides valuable insight into the nature of consciousness.

The thinking goes, you build up so many [functional, important] barriers and if-then-else loops in your brain over the years that you're not even aware of, just to live and filter out the oversaturation of daily life. And certain drugs (not alcohol or marijuana, certainly) have the ability to wipe those barriers and loops out temporarily, providing you with a brief glimpse into how your brain works when it's not saddled with all the extra baggage. For some people, this compels new, permanent ways of positive thinking that years of psychotherapy can't accomplish. I don't think it's all that snobby to be amazed by this, or to encourage others to have similar experiences. But whatever.

I think meditation has a similar issue with the spiritual/neurocognitive thing, but isn't nearly as stigmatized. Do you get pissed at "meditation snobs?"
posted by naju at 8:19 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

Thanks. :)

Perhaps I was a bit out of line. I don't mean to demean anyone's experience, if they find it valuable, I just had an adverse reaction to the idea that this drug is revealing something real, man via these weird visions, etc., and that people who didn't use it in a prescribed way were abusing it, with the clear implication that it's some kind of sacrament given to us from on high, whatever "on high" means to the commenter. I was a late convert to this whole "rational worldview" thing, and like most converts I can be somewhat overzealous at times. This isn't the first time I've heard of salvia, and honestly, I hope to try it some day. I will not post videos of the event.

And no, I do not believe anything "is sacred". I'm sorry you (solipsophistocracy) feel like I'm missing out, but I've found that it opens my mind to many more lines of inquiry than I ever pursued when bound by the tyranny of the sacred.
posted by adamdschneider at 8:30 AM on September 15, 2008

That works for me, naju. But the subset I'm being "unfair" to have that defining characteristic: if you're not doing it "right", they'd rather you not do it.

I know there's a carefree group that considers some of the substances in question life or at least perspective-changing. I consider myself part of that group. At the same time, I don't think it's for everyone. And it doesn't bother me if someone wants to play with it in a different way, or ignore anything other than the visceral thrill, where applicable. The place where religion went wrong was in ascribing one correct way to approach any philosophical question. We really don't need to repeat that mistake with drugs, sports, art, etc.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:42 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

Late to the thread. But on the original post: Great stuff. The series is clever satire, akin to Diamond Cutting While Drunk and Relaxing With Crystal Meth.
posted by Robson at 11:03 AM on September 15, 2008

I did my drugs and lots of yours when younger and foolisher, I've set it all down, I'll not be doing this one. A good thing, too, as my head isn't too well bolted together, many things askew in there already without my tongue turning into a left-handed styrofoam purple chromium Buick naked in the backyard or whatever it is that might happen, based upon the descriptions I've read in this thread.

Every description I've read in here could easily be a dream -- a pillow for talking to god? No problem. A circus run by a small dangerous guy, and I've got to warn my friends? I think I dreamt that last night. Massive walls of color that have a lego feel to them? Check. This stuff just taps into the same piece in our brain that dreams cut into, maybe this is what the lucid dreamers are up to.

Just like mushrooms, the overall sense of well being seems to last a long time, consciousness does appear to be enlarged and bettered, regardless the experience being frightening or not.

I do like the idea of it being only four to eight minutes long or whatever, having spent way too many hours on the wrong side of the divide on LSD, just aching for it to be over "Please god, just make it end" -- I never was an atheist during those times of inward terror and I'd bet most people aren't. Though part of it all, Salvia or LSD, is the dissolve of time, and seconds or minutes or hours don't matter, in theory, but I'd never have bought that after those long hours of carpet dogs with their bound, golden books of carpentry snarling and chasing me -- hounding me, as it were -- to get the golden neon Visuvian compass I carried in my chest, which must be kept safe, it's imperative, though I surely don't know why, on and on, etc and etc, the hours turning into forevers and forevers.

All that said, this kid Eric, in the vids you linked, this Eric is funny as hell, *a cool head* as we used to call it, and I sure do love his vids, great stuff. I have damn sure had plenty of fun times on various hallucinogens (for me, mushrooms the best of them, lo those years gone by) and Eric is clearly having a fucking blast, impossible for me not to laugh along with him, most particularly his 'Writing A Letter To Your Congressman On Salvia" video; I laughed til I cried. Thanx for posting.
posted by dancestoblue at 12:08 PM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]

I just want to respond to Justinian's points by saying that I think describing a plant as spiritual can not mean that it is related to religion in any way, but indicates it will be used wisely. I don't think anything that can't be explained by science goes on when you take these drugs, but quite clearly they allow for a lot of changes of perspective in one's own head, and can be incredibly valuable. A lot of research with salvia is going on in psychology, as it works totally differently to other hallucinogens, and has shown real potential. But, as with LSD, if it is made illegal, further research would also be jeopardised.

I agree that things like Salvia shouldn't be used by just anyone. I used hallucinogens a few years ago, after doing lots of research, and found it to be very valuable. But if I had gone into using them just to get fucked up, I wouldn't be suprised if I had wound up dead.

Drugs get a bad name because of the people who use them without respect for them. People who want to use drugs wisely should have every right to, but there are clearly always people who will do stupid things, and a great many of them are teenagers.
posted by opsin at 1:08 PM on September 15, 2008

That said, I really am getting pissed about these fucks who think it's funny to do stupid shit on drugs on video and post them. I hope your ass gets busted if/when it becomes illegal.

Fuck you, narc.

Salvia seems ridiculously overpriced, and makes me wonder whether legalizing marijuana and other psychedelics would be good for the market or the product. Who knows what pesticides and contaminants commercial salvia is treated with?

I smoked some salvia a few weeks ago for the first time. It felt like I was an invisible box, being squeezed from the top and stretched on the sides. I didn't like it, but maybe I didn't smoke enough. It was a little like smoking leftover marijuana resin, i.e. headache-inducing.

As far as recreation/pleasure, or any of the myriad of physical ailments that marijuana can alleviate, I'd recommend marijuana. Highly.

For stepping outside the doors of perception, I'd recommend LSD. Highly.
posted by mrgrimm at 2:18 PM on September 15, 2008

Every description I've read in here could easily be a dream

There are definitely similarities with dreaming - besides the experiences you noted, there is a bit of forgetting like with dreams where the memory is hard to hold on to. (Not as strongly as with dreams, though.)

It is, though, much MUCH weirder than any dream I have ever had. In a dream, I've never physically felt music sliding out underneath me like a tablecloth under plates in that trick and I was also sort of part of the music sliding underneath myself. That one was pretty fun.
posted by Sockpuppet For Naughty Things at 3:04 PM on September 15, 2008

It felt like I was an invisible box, being squeezed from the top and stretched on the sides. I didn't like it, but maybe I didn't smoke enough.

I didn't want to (try to) access this at work, but I remembered that the Erowid general page on salvia contained a less-than-enthusiastic report of effects. I remembered correctly:

Many people who try S. divinorum do not find the effects at all pleasant and choose not to repeat the experience.

Coming from erowid, that's worth noting.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 3:32 PM on September 15, 2008

mrgrimm, many people find it unpleasant. I probably would have also if I hadn't been keeping a running (vocal) narrative for the benefit of the others in the room when I did it. Sadly, that also took most of the mystique out of it, as I was able to wrap my head around what the various whacked out things I was seeing and thinking were and were caused by.

(not the drug, the actual sensory input that was provoking the thoughts/visions/whatever)

A person who had done some a few minutes before me had an absolutely revolting time. He thought he was being sliced thinly like one of those deli meat slicers would do. I was left with a sense of well being.
posted by wierdo at 4:25 PM on September 15, 2008

~Every description I've read in here could easily be a dream~

Not like a dream. NOT. A. DREAM.

My dreams try their DAMNEDIST to be like that. But to no avail. No contest, not even close.

Don't trust me on this though, by all means go grab yourself some 10X, take a nice big hit and hold it, hold it.

Say hi to Oo'b Shouladang and Count Pushera for me.

(If your mouth isn't too full of licorice bowling balls.)

I gotta say, it sure sounds funny to hear people who haven't tried Salvia talk about Salvia.

I too considered myself a "veteran" of psychedelics, right up until I smoked it.

As it turns out, I wasn't.
posted by chronkite at 5:04 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

Anybody interested in this thread probably already knows this, but the Erowid experiences vault is a great reference, as well as highly entertaining.

Under salvia d. we have General category stories such as "reality is a five spoked wheel", "I'm alive, I'm dead, I'm plastic", and "Oh, so that's why you need a sitter". Difficult Experiences sports such stories as "Through the rent and into the void", "A glitch in the software of reality" and "What if I can't come back"? Bad Trips hosts such tales as "A door that was never meant to be opened", "Insanity and sinewy, vibrating meat machines" and "This is not where I want to be right now". (though there is some cross-posting)

All in all, looks to be a pretty intense deal. Sitter. Got ya.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 10:19 PM on September 15, 2008

I was a late convert to this whole "rational worldview" thing, and like most converts I can be somewhat overzealous at times.

This "worldview" thingie you spoke of... can you smoke it?

Durn - Those trip reports over at erowid are becoming a genre in themselves. I've read my share (before and after going on a few of my own experiences) and the salvia ones are easy to relate to if one imbibes a concentrated extract [25x was where it got too crazy for me personally] of the stuff. It really can be that nutty.
posted by phylum sinter at 11:02 PM on September 15, 2008

Is there any kind of emotional content to a salvia trip? I don't hear anyone talking about euphoria or joy and beauty and light (or darkness for that matter), the way that people talk about LSD and shrooms.
posted by empath at 11:08 PM on September 15, 2008

Yeah, phylum, I've read enough of them now that every time I read a new one that starts "I'm pretty experienced and didn't think 40x would be a big deal" I know enough to brace myself before reading on.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 11:18 PM on September 15, 2008

Is there any kind of emotional content to a salvia trip? I don't hear anyone talking about euphoria or joy and beauty and light (or darkness for that matter), the way that people talk about LSD and shrooms.

For me, no, unless you count confusion and hilarity. Really I find salvia more intense than shrooms or acid but lacking the "depth" or "meaningfulness" of the latter, to use some clumsy words. Salvia is more like "LOLZ, I BROKE MAH BRAIN."
posted by Sockpuppet For Naughty Things at 6:02 AM on September 16, 2008

Re: Emotional Content to a salvia trip -

Intense fear combined with utter oppositional freakout are common. By that, and i'm sure there's a better word, emotional paradoxes maybe, means one might feel happy AND sad simultaneously. This, or general panic-inducing disorientation are probably more likely after a serious dose. A less intense dose (obtained with weaker concentrations of extract and/or smaller hits) are usually more like a trip to the wonka chocolate factory than you know... some kind of profoundly somber, peaceful communion with your inner dolphin.

There usually is a good feeling that carries for quite a while afterwards though. A combination of gratitude and release of un-needed tensions are reported in many people.

In any case, the massive part of the peak (at least according to the other people in the room) ends in 10 minutes or so.
posted by phylum sinter at 7:32 PM on September 16, 2008

[...]they're drawing negative attention to it, which will probably lead to it being outlawed.

It already is in Florida, as of July 1. Sadly they didn't make it July 4 for maximum irony.

I tried some (in Canada, and before this ban) and it didn't seem to do much. I had some weird dreams from which I gleaned a little insight, but no hallucinations or sense of divine contact or anything. Had leftovers and tried them on another occasion, nothing. FWIW, YMMV.
posted by vsync at 9:29 PM on September 16, 2008