And I thought The Force was the oldest religion

May 13, 2001 2:38 PM

And I thought The Force was the oldest religion "This is not a new religion. The worship of The Goddess Athena, Goddess of Wisdom, The Home Arts, Womanly Virtue, and Prudent Warfare, has been documented as being well known and commonly practiced since before the founding of the ancient city of Athens in Greece; and is thus a Traditional and Well Established Religion. It has always emphasized individualism, self reliance, thinking for one's self, and personal responsibility; beliefs and values which led to the founding of Athens. Then, as now, Athena sought the brightest minds. Comet riders and cult followers need not apply. "
posted by feelinglistless (26 comments total)

I'm creating a list for my website of real first names still owned by real people not corporations and I turned this up. Does anyone know anything about this religion? It seems somewhat long lived . . .
posted by feelinglistless at 2:43 PM on May 13, 2001

Well, the pet religion of Athens was the cult of Pallas Athena (aka Polias Athene), and it's interesting to compare the Athene cults -- warrior goddess, associated with wisdom -- to the fertilty cults of Aphrodite. (I think there's a chapter in Camille Paglia's Sexual Personae about it.)

Though the notion of a cult of individualism always strikes me as somewhat paradoxical: straight out of "The Life of Brian".
posted by holgate at 3:00 PM on May 13, 2001

What is interesting is that religion, despite it's origins seems to find the idea of being thought of as a 'cult' distasteful, perhaps because of the conotations the word now unfortunately attached to it.
posted by feelinglistless at 3:17 PM on May 13, 2001

has attached . . .
posted by feelinglistless at 3:17 PM on May 13, 2001

Makes you wonder who the last person was who believed in Zeus and his gang....
posted by Postroad at 5:20 PM on May 13, 2001

Don't worry, I think the pantheon of Greek gods is still going strong.
posted by Oddsea at 5:38 PM on May 13, 2001

Really? Can you elaborate?
posted by rodii at 5:41 PM on May 13, 2001

I'm imagining a retirement home for gods. The Greeks and Norse sit around all day watching TV, playing cards, and bitching about how YHWH and the Hindu pantheon are screwing things up. Occasionally Zeus and Thor argue about who had the mightier thunderbolts.
posted by darukaru at 5:48 PM on May 13, 2001

Makes you wonder who the last person was who believed in Zeus and his gang....

Last person? In the Pagan religion of Wicca (and through its various sects) worshippers call upon deities from several different polytheistic practices to meet the needs of whatever ritual/spell they may be performing - this includes gods and goddesses from Greek, Roman, Nordic, ancient Ireland (Celt deities), and even Hawaiian. The Christian god YHWH is viewed as yet another god in the huge pantheon and is not invoked because of his decree "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" though it is not unheard of that some Pagans do try to work him in.
posted by bkdelong at 6:37 PM on May 13, 2001

Well, the Wicca that stems from the "mind, body and spirit" section of Borders is all rather silly: as much a creation of the modern era as the notion of a unified Celtic race was a creation of the pseudo-nostalgic 1700s (ironically, at the time the disparate Celts were being turfed out of their homes).

If you're going to have a pantheon, at least make it a consistent one. I can just imagine that party at Olympus/Asgard: "what do you mean, you're the moon god? I'm the bloody moon god." Not helpful to mix your animisms: likely to lead to a theological hangover.

feelinglistless: the root of "cult" is the Latin "to worship"; of "religion", probably the Lating "to bind to". Hm.
posted by holgate at 8:01 PM on May 13, 2001

rodii: I know among many of my acquaintances the old pantheist principles of Greek religion, as well as Wiccan, Norse, Yoruba, etc., are still worshipped and studied. I myself call on the Greek Muses quite often and Athena, for here association with wisdom and judgement, will always have a place in my heart. While this may sound ridiculous to most, it is really no different than attending a Christian church. After all, gods are gods. If anything I find the idea of a pantheon more plausible. Whether or not people agree, I think it is safe to say that ancient mythologies will always fascinate. Simply take a walk in a bookstore or browse a university course list and it is plain to see that some people must be interested.
posted by Oddsea at 8:02 PM on May 13, 2001

holgate: That's a common "issue" within Wicca. Many people claim it was a celebrated religion of the ancient Celts when in all reality it's really only half a century old and takes its practices from several polytheistic religions (much to the chagrin of the traditionalists of those religions). This confusion is mostly caused when people fail to differentiate between the words "Pagan" and "Wicca". Pagan means "non-Christian" and includes everything from Native American spirituality to Hinduism to Druidism to Wicca. Wicca is a Pagan religion. What the ancient Celts practiced is quite different then the Wicca and witchcraft we see today.

Because Wicca is a religion where nature and The Earth are revered and prayers consist of often elaborate rituals and "spells" there's no reason to have a consistent pantheon. You are worshipping spirituality and nature, not any particular deity however you call upon the gods or goddesses for assistance. For instance, if you're doing a ritual that involves the qualities and aspects of a deity representing the element of fire, you might ask the ancient Celtic god Lugh, the Roman god Mars, or even the Hawaiian goddess Pele for assistance.

I don't believe there is any decree or set of orders like the 10 Commandments or Bible as set forth by YHWH for other pantheons (or at least those commonly referenced by practioners of Wicca), thus there is no reason why various gods and goddesses from multiple pantheons can't be called upon.
posted by bkdelong at 8:29 PM on May 13, 2001

There hasn't been a single religion in the history of the world that..."emphasizes individualism, self reliance, thinking for one's self, and personal responsibility." Religion and all of those things are mutually exclusive.

Religion is simply selling things people don't need to people who don't know they don't need them.
posted by UncleFes at 8:59 PM on May 13, 2001

While this may sound ridiculous to most, it is really no different than attending a Christian church.

This may not be exactly the best analogy to use when trying to convince others that what you're saying isn't as ridiculous as it sounds.
posted by kindall at 10:33 PM on May 13, 2001

Form bkdelong: Pagan means "non-Christian"

You need to include Judaism and Islam. (Don't forget to correct your web site:)
posted by Dick Paris at 11:12 PM on May 13, 2001

Goddess worship has no historical basis. It has been created in modern times, and is a useful theoretical tool. This statement is not to disparage any present practicioners of goddess worship - my general viewpoint is that whatever someone wants to believe is legitimate, even if it exists only in their own mind. But, there was never any mystical pre-conventional period of goddess worship predating known and historically documented religious practices. sorry...
posted by gnutron at 6:38 AM on May 14, 2001

There hasn't been a single religion in the history of the world that..."emphasizes individualism, self reliance, thinking for one's self, and personal responsibility."

Au contraire - the Wiccan religion's primary rules include "and ye harm none, do what ye will" and "anything you do will come back 3 fold". That's personal responsibility - you do something bad, you pay the consequences, only they'll be 3 times as bad.

On the individualism part, witches can practice in a coven (congregation of sorts) or solitary - alone, without the need to visit a church. While Wicca has priests and priestesses, laypeople of the religion have just as much power to call upon the deities as they do.

I understand your point about religion selling people something they don't need but compared to several other religions, Wicca probably meets more of those qualifications above than any of them. I've already talked about what attracted me to Wicca and it's partially for the qualities that you claim no religion has had.
posted by bkdelong at 6:53 AM on May 14, 2001

Goddess worship has no historical basis.

You're kidding right? That's a troll comment if I ever heard one. But I'm going to respond anyway.

Have you looked at the Greek and Roman pantheon? They have goddesses all over the place - and many of them had their own temples, own priests and priestesses and own followers. The ancient Celts also worshipped goddesses alongside their gods - Danu, mother of the gods (who's mate was the god Bile), and Bride and her mate Dagda. Look at the Hawaiian goddess of fire, Pele. How about the Venus of Willendorf ?

There's hundreds of books and academic research that has looked into ancient goddess worship - and I'm not just talking about the new age, Llewelyn Publishing type of books. There is quite the historical reference to goddess worship. Perhaps the religions in those past forms are not being represented today but such worship did occur. You just need to look for it.
posted by bkdelong at 7:10 AM on May 14, 2001

bkdelong: "the Wiccan religion's primary rules include "and ye harm none, do what ye will" and "anything you do will come back 3 fold". That's personal responsibility - you do something bad, you pay the consequences, only they'll be 3 times as bad."

That's not "personal responsibility," that's the threat of punishment. Personal responsibility is doing the right thing when you would PROFIT from doing wrong.

I stand by my original statement.
posted by UncleFes at 8:17 AM on May 14, 2001

I'm imagining a retirement home for gods. The Greeks and Norse sit around all day watching TV, playing cards, and bitching about how YHWH and the Hindu pantheon are screwing things up. Occasionally Zeus and Thor argue about who had the mightier thunderbolts.

I seem to recall that in The Mists of Avalon something similar to this happened. As religious ages passed, the holy people associated with them sort of blended into the background and time slowed for them, so that when one accidentally wandered into an older period (they shared the same physical space) for a few days, when she found her way back, years had passed. You could imagine the same thing for the Greek pantheon.

The Norse gods, however, all perished by fire. And good riddance: they were a grim lot.
posted by anapestic at 8:45 AM on May 14, 2001

<< Pagan means "non-Christian" and includes everything from Native American spirituality to Hinduism to Druidism to Wicca. >>

I think you'll have a hard time finding a Hindu who calls himself a Pagan.

I'm Kemetic Orthodox myself (www.kemet.org) and we intentionally disassociate ourselves from the Pagan movement... not that there's anything wrong with it, but it's not us and we're not it.
posted by Foosnark at 8:54 AM on May 14, 2001

Makes you wonder who the last person was who believed in Zeus and his gang....
Postroad, the last entry of this site chronicling the persecutions of Greek "pagans" by Christians puts it around 850 to 860:
"Violent conversion of the last Gentile Hellenes of Laconia by the Armenian "Saint" Nikon." (The site could be associated with the fringe Neo-Olympian movement in Greece, but its facts are more or less accurate). Plus, archeologists have told me that in sacred Greek sites (i.e. the birthplace of Zeus in Crete) offerings were smuggled in as late as the 10th century AD (although this might be anecdotal).
posted by talos at 9:25 AM on May 14, 2001

There's hundreds of books and academic research that has looked into ancient goddess worship - and I'm not just talking about the new age, Llewelyn Publishing type of books. There is quite the historical reference to goddess worship. Perhaps the religions in those past forms are not being represented today but such worship did occur. You just need to look for it.

I suggest a book entitled The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory : Why an Invented Past Won't Give Women a Future by Cynthia Eller.

Of course there were goddesses and of course they were worshipped. But there is little to no evidence of prehistoric matriarchal (women above men) goddess worship.

As for the Venus of Willendorf: it is definitely a woman figure, but there is almost no evidence regarding what that figure meant to the person that made it.
posted by obfusciatrist at 1:54 PM on May 14, 2001

Haven't we done this before?
posted by norm at 2:49 PM on May 14, 2001

Haven't we got a good memory?

Only just checked back to my posting, and you've all demonstrated what I love about Mefi - constructive and intelligent discussion on any topic.

In a previous discussion, I talked I offered my 'everyone is right' argument about religion. Looking at the above I think this still stands. The belief in something is important.

I'm a bit too tired to offer anything too constructive right now (although I think most of the things I could say have been covered).

I will say, though, that have a number of gods to worship means that you can forgive them sometimes for their inconsistencies . . .
posted by feelinglistless at 3:29 PM on May 14, 2001

The worship of The Goddess Athena ... is thus a Traditional and Well Established Religion.

(chuckle)
posted by lagado at 5:21 PM on May 14, 2001