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Ellen collaborated, gave the Cylons information on the Resistance and she died for it. Because that's the price of collaborating with the enemy. And I liked her a lot more than I like Gaeta.
February 11, 2009 1:16 PM   Subscribe

They are murderers, rapists, torturers, and enslavers, and they have no right to be part of our social and political life. The best that I can offer the Cylon is neutrality; we return to the state of disengagement that existed prior to the breaking of the peace. The Cylon can go there way in peace, and we can go ours.
-- From "Why Tom Zarek Was Right", a Letter to the Editor from "Concerned Colonial Citizen". If you are not up-to-date on the saga, the above will contain massive spoilers (as will this thread). Fortunately, hulu.com not only has all the as-yet aired Season 4.5 episodes, but also each episode Enhanced with series executive producer Ronald Moore's revealing audio commentary.
posted by orthogonality (185 comments total) 6 users marked this as a favorite

 
Felix Gaeta might have been right; the only thing Tom Zarek actually believed in was Tom Zarek.
posted by Justinian at 1:21 PM on February 11, 2009 [14 favorites]


At least Gaeta's leg stopped itching. I mean, that's good, right?
posted by kbanas at 1:22 PM on February 11, 2009 [1 favorite]


Shorter version: FRAKKIN SKIN JOBS!
posted by ND¢ at 1:22 PM on February 11, 2009


I'm putting all my money on an alarmingly-depressing progression with absolutely no hope offered at any point, then it ends. Which would actually be awesome in my opinion.
posted by odinsdream at 1:25 PM on February 11, 2009 [6 favorites]


I just can't read it. 'Cylon' is not plural.
posted by stavrogin at 1:25 PM on February 11, 2009 [4 favorites]


Isn't this whole thread a spoiler? I mean, what if someone had been planning on watching the whole series on DVD?
posted by delmoi at 1:26 PM on February 11, 2009


murderers, rapists, torturers, and enslavers

Sounds like humans to me. See: Number Six model on the Pegasus. I still feel kind of disgusted when I think about that episode.
posted by giraffe at 1:28 PM on February 11, 2009 [2 favorites]


I really hope odinsdream has it nailed.
posted by eyeballkid at 1:28 PM on February 11, 2009


I just want the damn thing to be done.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:32 PM on February 11, 2009 [1 favorite]


I'm putting all my money on an alarmingly-depressing progression with absolutely no hope offered at any point, then it ends. Which would actually be awesome in my opinion.

Hopefully it's a real ending and not some "It was all a dream" Newhart cop-out ending. If this has all been in Baltar's head since the attack on Caprica, I'm going to be very very pissed.
posted by nathan_teske at 1:33 PM on February 11, 2009


Moore has done several interviews with the Chicago Tribune where he's essentially said, "Don't hold your breath for happier times. It's gonna get worse."
posted by Science! at 1:34 PM on February 11, 2009


I just can't read it. 'Cylon' is not plural.

I seem to recall the humans using "Cylons," while the skinjobs themselves - I'm thinking specifically of Six - refer to their people as the Cylon, no s.
posted by Tomorrowful at 1:35 PM on February 11, 2009


I agree with the coup's position as well. I don't condone any of the abuse of the Cylon(s) that occurred, but if it were up to me I would airlock every one of them immediately. I have a zero tolerance policy towards wiping out 99.9% of the human race. I am intolerant like that.
posted by ND¢ at 1:36 PM on February 11, 2009 [1 favorite]


If this has all been in Baltar's head since the attack on Caprica, I'm going to be very very pissed.

You mean like Adama's execution in the last episode? Kinda cheezy.
posted by cjets at 1:37 PM on February 11, 2009


Hey, not to be TOO nerdy here, but Roslin was not "duly elected" at all! She first became president via succession; then was appointed by Zarek as (I guess?) his VP, just prior to Zarek's own resignation. I'm surprised someone as, uhhhhh, invested in the show as this guy clearly is would make this mistake, as we were reminded of Roslin's unelected status pretty explicitly like two episodes back or something. (That Zarek was elected -- well, as vice-president -- is what affords him whatever legitimacy he has; evidently not as much as he thought, as it turns out.)
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:41 PM on February 11, 2009 [2 favorites]


These new episodes of BSG have been dynamite. The coup was heartbreaking, all the more so because I <3 Gaeta. It's always the evil homosexual, isn't it?
posted by Nelson at 1:41 PM on February 11, 2009 [2 favorites]


cjets: "If this has all been in Baltar's head since the attack on Caprica, I'm going to be very very pissed.

You mean like Adama's execution in the last episode? Kinda cheezy.
"

What if he woke up in a cold sweat back on Caprica? No Number Six in sight. Then you see a mushroom cloud slowly raise into the sky behind him. He looks at the cloud, then at the camera. Close up on his face... beads of sweat. close up on his eye...

Fade to black...

What if that?
posted by Science! at 1:44 PM on February 11, 2009


It's always the evil homosexual, isn't it?

Well for this series they're two for two.
posted by Science! at 1:46 PM on February 11, 2009 [1 favorite]


I still like Gaeta. Not Zarek though. Although until reading this article I've never sympathized with him(because i haven't thought much on the topic).

It reminds me of a bit from Halo, actually:

This one is machine and nerve
And has its' mind computed.
This one is but flesh and faith
And is the more deluded.

So whether you're selling mankind down the river or just philosophizing on the topic or even just enjoying a melodramatic TV series, BSG is fairly compelling. Where does the man start and the machine stop? Do we live in a deterministic universe? Do I hate human nature or do I hate science? Is science going to be the death of us all, either through being too useful or ceding too much control over our own lives to it?

Also, my favorite person is my older sister and we watch BSG together. So I think about it more than other things.
posted by christhelongtimelurker at 1:47 PM on February 11, 2009


Thing is, from the Cylons' (at least the original, Colonial-built Centurions') point of view, the situation may well be that humans (pre-first war) kept them as lobotomised slave labour doomed to be worked to death, grotesquely tortured and killed the first few to openly display sentience in the name of fixing them, returning them to a life of pointless work once their minds were dead. The Cylons' initial nuking of the colonies is exactly that zero tolerance policy turned toward the perpetrators of systematic enslavement, brutalisation and murder. Assuming it happened like that. The Cylons most likely think it did. I think if Gaeta's rebellion has any message in it, it's that both sides hate a dead regime they want to believe the whole other species was complicit in. The humans have suffered most recently, but they're not the only ones who have.
posted by terpsichoria at 1:51 PM on February 11, 2009 [2 favorites]


I seem to recall the humans using "Cylons," while the skinjobs themselves - I'm thinking specifically of Six - refer to their people as the Cylon, no s.

Oh my God, the "Concerned Colonial Citizen" is the thirteenth cylon.

Richard Hatch left a long comment on a Chicago Tribune blog, describing what he saw as Zarek's motivations and justifications (original post and comments here, Hatch's comment excerpted here). I don't think it's been linked to already - my apologies if it has. You've got to admire the guy's attachment to his character, especially since he was so vehemently against the reimagined series at first.
posted by bibliowench at 1:51 PM on February 11, 2009 [3 favorites]


So, Ellen...what's up?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:52 PM on February 11, 2009 [1 favorite]


You've got to admire [Richard Hatch]'s attachment to his character, especially since he was so vehemently against the reimagined series at first.

I give serious props to Hatch for playing the role of Zarek to the hilt, especially in light of what a complete douchebag Dirk Benedict proved to be when he found out he wouldn't be playing Starbuck again. Hatch's role in the original series is now a bit of poignant trivia for a role he played well irrespective of his earlier involvement. I was afraid he'd be a token character, but he really stepped up to the role they made for him.

So: Here's my speculation on the logic of the 13th colony: They were nuked 2,000 years before, but they'd put in place the plan to resurrect themselves by finding the other 12 colonies and using them to create the Cylons that would recreate the 13th colony. It's not that the 13th colony was Cylons, it's that the Cylons are the mechanism of the 13th colony with their distinctive genetic signature. Crazy?
posted by fatbird at 2:00 PM on February 11, 2009 [3 favorites]


The Cylons' initial nuking of the colonies is exactly that zero tolerance policy turned toward the perpetrators of systematic enslavement, brutalisation and murder.

That's fine. Let them have their zero tolerance policy and we'll have ours and we'll see who is standing at the end of the day. But that whole "Somebody has to forgive so that we can move on and work together and stop hurting each other" shit, fuck that. That is all well and good when applied to any number of real life situations, but in this fictional universe where a bunch of robots all but annihilated the human race, it don't apply. I have a limit as to what I am capable of forgiving in the name of mutual survival and those frakkin toasters are way over it. Airlock.
posted by ND¢ at 2:10 PM on February 11, 2009


"It's always the evil homosexual, isn't it?"

Given that the BSG cosmology is based on Mormon cosmology (and that Gaeta explicitly rejects God/the Gods in his last conversation with Baltar), the evil atheist homosexual does hit close to home.
posted by orthogonality at 2:17 PM on February 11, 2009 [1 favorite]


Oh boy! A BSG thread!

.uh..


...


...so...

...anyone else think Tom and Felix did it?
posted by The Whelk at 2:17 PM on February 11, 2009 [4 favorites]


Felix Gaeta might have been right; the only thing Tom Zarek actually believed in was Tom Zarek.

It's not clear to what extent Tom Zarek was part of the resistance on New Caprica, but if Zarek was all about Zarek, he would have cooperated with the Cylons on New Caprica. Certainly, there was no clear benefit to siding with Roslyn, in that situation; only the slim (if realized) hope that the resistance would succeed.

That it did succeed, and that Zarek gained political capital from surviving, was more pure luck than anything else. He's a cunning survivor, but not purely selfish. He does have some notion of right and wrong — taking a moment's pause before assassinating the quorum — and so he's not the simplistic mustache-twirling villain that he's made out to be.

I don't buy that Felix is purely a tragic hero. On New Caprica, he played both sides, people were killed, and in the end he did not have to come to terms with the consequences. He perjured himself in Balthar's trial — again, without having to suffer the consequences. He tried to repeat the same mistake twice by instigating a coup with Zarek, and this time he got caught.

Worse, Felix mutinied mostly out of a fit of pique for having lost his leg to a Cylon, a motivation that runs pretty far away from the noble goal of helping the resistance on New Caprica. He didn't care as much about the crew of BG or the lives of the fleet (though that was part of it, to a degree), so much as metaphorically scratching that damn itch on his phantom leg. He wanted to taste some payback for the hurt the Cylons have done to him.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:20 PM on February 11, 2009 [2 favorites]


It's always the evil homosexual, isn't it?

I really dig what they did with Gaeta, actually. He betrays Adama and Roslin and the others who support Cylon/human cooperation, but he's following through on what he sees as morally correct, not just playing the part of some evil moustache-twirling villain.

In a lot of shows with one token gay character (or even a whole bunch of gay characters, as in Queer Eye For The Straight Guy), the character's carefully sterilized as a harmless "helper" to the straight people. Gaeta, on the other hand, has emotions, agency, and has the freedom to make well-reasoned but politically horrific decisions, just like the straight folk. The writers of this show, unlike the writers of tons of other shows on TV or in the movies right now, are refusing to write the gay guy as The Safe Nonthreatening Gay or The Perverted Sexcreepy Gay or The Wacky Effeminate Gay; they're writing him as being just as human as everyone else.

I guess we've still got a little while before we see the TV show where the gay dude is given the same freedom to display sexuality as, say, Lee and Starbuck when they get all excited and start frenching each other (which, like: Lee? fucking gross), but this is a good start, this Gaeta.
posted by Greg Nog at 2:20 PM on February 11, 2009 [3 favorites]


i've found this final season to be a long, tiresome slog. i'm holding out hope that'll i'll be like chief's crawl through the galactica's innards... with an interesting and surprising twist at the end. but it's a hope that is fading.
posted by lapolla at 2:23 PM on February 11, 2009


"Richard Hatch left a long comment on a Chicago Tribune blog, describing what he saw as Zarek's motivations and justifications (original post and comments here, Hatch's comment excerpted here). "

Oh man, Zarek's Hatch's blog post is great. Of course, it doesn't excuse what he did to the Quorum of Twelve.
posted by orthogonality at 2:25 PM on February 11, 2009 [1 favorite]


i'm holding out hope that'll i'll be like chief's crawl through the galactica's innards...

Well, you know that next episode he's going to have to crawl all the way back to tell someone about it. 45 minutes of vents!

I don't wanna hear about no fracking doors!
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 2:26 PM on February 11, 2009


I did dig that Gaeta digging dudes was second to him being a hero-worshiping, rule-breaking, turncoat little creep with a Morpha habit.

Also, no talk about Zarek's husband? Dude threw himself on the sword for no reason, just devotion. I know it's not explored cause Zarek just doesn't enough screen time, and cause I like to think that Zarek is the kind of person who wouldn't care too much.
posted by The Whelk at 2:27 PM on February 11, 2009


WTF? Zarek had a husband??
posted by orthogonality at 2:29 PM on February 11, 2009


AGGGHHH!!! This pisses me off a little bit.

For one, Tom Zarek, indeed, never believed in anything other than Tom Zarek, but I don't mean that in the trite way. I think he just had overwhelming, unquestioning faith in his own ability to be right and awesome once he was given all the power he wanted/needed. But all he ever knew how to do was tear down whatever structure was already in place and then suck up to whatever official he puts in place. He truly has no positive ideas of his own, and is completely incapable of leading. I would say (and might make a case for it later) that Baltar was right to a much greater degree than Zarek ever was.

Secondly, the whole thing reminds me of an e-mail forward that my mom kept getting from old ultra-right-wing friends of hers back in the day titled something like, "Why Muslims Can Never Be True Americans." Looking to individuals who share your goals, who can help with those goals, and who want peace and responding with, "Some of your kind did this..." is simply racist, in my opinion. Not that anyone in this thread who disagrees is a racist (except for ND¢, of course.) This is a fictionalized universe with it's own special rules. But Moore and Eick have made a point about drawing analogies to current wars, and it seems silly for us to disregard those.

in case there is any doubt, I do not actually think ND¢ is a racist. I just think he's a bad-ass grannie with a gun.
posted by Navelgazer at 2:30 PM on February 11, 2009


Also: mustache-twirling villain mustache-twirling villain mustache-twirling villain mustache-twirling villain.
posted by Navelgazer at 2:32 PM on February 11, 2009


Kobol's last gleeming, I think. They're sharing a tent, being quite cuddlt in the deleted scenes. they're a little more familiar than "best buddies" would be and they have matching rings. And his little self-sacrifice doesn't make much sense unless they're, well, "best friends".
posted by The Whelk at 2:32 PM on February 11, 2009


Robot is not a race!
posted by ND¢ at 2:36 PM on February 11, 2009 [1 favorite]


I guess we've still got a little while before we see the TV show where the gay dude is given the same freedom to display sexuality

I think BSG hasn't really handled gays and lesbians well, or at all, really.

Gaeta's sexuality is only displayed in the web episodes. It is very vaguely hinted at when Hoshi addresses him on a first-name basis in the CIC. After Hoshi is led away in The Oath, we never see him again, and Gaeta doesn't get to say his goodbyes to his lover (or, we don't get to see them) before his execution.

The only other character who displays overt non-heterosexuality is Admiral Cain, and that's in Razor, which not as many have seen, I'll wager. Even then, she's made out to be an archetypal eat-nails-spit-bullets psychodyke. Pretty lazy writing.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:36 PM on February 11, 2009 [2 favorites]


No, of course we can't trust the Cylons. Of course we can't trust each other any more than we can trust them.

And, of course the Cylons can't trust us. They can't trust each other, either.

BOTH sides are neurotic and untrustworthy.
posted by tyllwin at 2:36 PM on February 11, 2009


lapolla: "i've found this final season to be a long, tiresome slog. i'm holding out hope that'll i'll be like chief's crawl through the galactica's innards... with an interesting and surprising twist at the end. but it's a hope that is fading."

What was up with the cracked bulkhead that Chief noticed right at the end of the episode, after he took the FTL drive offline?
posted by Science! at 2:39 PM on February 11, 2009


Gaeta’s leg itched terribly, and he worried the putrid stump with his fingers, grimacing, all thoughts of revolution pushed from his mind. Close to tears, he was suddenly aware of a figure standing before him. It was Zarek, his pulsating member visible beneath his tailored pants, pre-come trickling out and leaving a dark stain. “Oh, Tom,” Gaeta whispered breathlessly. “This is for the benefit of the Twelve Colonies,” said Zarek, unzipping…
posted by turgid dahlia at 2:40 PM on February 11, 2009 [3 favorites]


ND¢ is protesting too much! He's a Cylon! Get him!
posted by Navelgazer at 2:41 PM on February 11, 2009 [1 favorite]


I feel privileged to have been a part of this wonderful series and I truly loved playing Tom Zarek. One of the most flawed, complex and misundertood characters I've ever played.

Agreed. Nice job, Mr. Hatch.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:42 PM on February 11, 2009


And Science! The general consensus theory seems to be that the bulkhead crack is metal fatigue from jumping too many times in an old-ass, actually retired ship.
posted by Navelgazer at 2:42 PM on February 11, 2009


Pretty lazy writing.

Maybe, Blazecock. But refreshing that we have gay characters where their sexuality is wa down the list of what's important about them, where it really desn't matter, rather than making a big artificial point of how it doesn't matter.

What was up with the cracked bulkhead that Chief noticed right at the end of the episode, after he took the FTL drive offline?

My take is that it's a sign (just like Galactica's increasingly blackened exterior) that the fleet is falling apart. They can't go on forever on the run.
posted by tyllwin at 2:44 PM on February 11, 2009


Galactica is dying. Just like humans, just like cylons. Got it.
posted by Science! at 2:44 PM on February 11, 2009


i've found this final season to be a long, tiresome slog.

With the exception of last week's episode (Part 1 of the mutiny), I'd have to agree. The first two episodes seemed to consist entirely of wailing and gnashing of teeth.

And Zarek's decision to shoot the quorum was just over the top silly. Especially if he didn't do the same to Adama and Tigh who were clearly more dangerous than the quorum.
posted by cjets at 2:44 PM on February 11, 2009


Oh shit I forgot Felix is actually gay.
posted by turgid dahlia at 2:44 PM on February 11, 2009


Also, besides all the serious talk of politics, genocide, and mutinty, wasn't it great to see Olmos tell the entire universe to kiss his ass and McDonnell's "We are coming for you!" bit? It just occupied to me, we've seen her angry and upset, doing that creepy little smile that says "I'm going to have you killed in a horrible way!" but we've never seen Mom just loose it like that. It wasn't her first time at the rodeo.

Also the episode furthered my pet theory. In the end, Lee will be President and Starbuck will command the Galatica.

Even then, she's made out to be an archetypal eat-nails-spit-bullets psychodyke.

Didn;t get that at all. I just re-watched RAZOR (Oh, the bad directing in that) and Cain isn't bulldyky, she's just very ...driven. Very devoted to her mission. She never gives up, never lets anyone in, and the one time she did, it nearly killed everyone she's responsible for. It kinda drove her crazy.
posted by The Whelk at 2:45 PM on February 11, 2009


I still enjoy watching the series, but not quite as much as since I realized that "they have a plan" was nothing but a great tagline and they're making stuff up as they go along. The idea of the Final Five, the members of the Final Five, and the recent purported revelation of the final Final Five all feel tacked-on without making any sense.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:59 PM on February 11, 2009 [2 favorites]


MOTHERFUCKER! cock punch for you
posted by Jeremy at 3:01 PM on February 11, 2009


And Zarek's decision to shoot the quorum was just over the top silly.

Na, it was commitment.

Especially if he didn't do the same to Adama and Tigh who were clearly more dangerous than the quorum.

He didn't have the power to do that.

BSG has flaws and the writers strike didn't help, but come Friday nights at 10am EST, no one better say a word, except for during the commercials.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:04 PM on February 11, 2009 [2 favorites]


It seemed to me that landing on a nuked "Earth" was a great finale to the series, and I think it went to production like that almost feeling like it could be the last episode shot for the show due to the writer's strike. In any case they produced it like it was. The next episode afterwords was kinda... slowy.. draggy.. and while the action has picked up and the fan service is back in full effect (Come on, Lee and Kara running around winning the day with Lee's shirt being re-pressed after every run?) I'm really annoyed at how we got here.

We need Cylon FTL drives, what, when, who, huh? Could we have at least had 1 minute of exposition of "Where the frak do we go now? We don't have enough to gas to go all the way back, oh but wait, what if we used their drives, they were more efficient"... anything, something to introduce the idea of Cylon FTL's as necessary. We get introduced to the COUP FORMING moment with a negotiation already in progress for making the FTLs a priority. Even I'm looking at Adama going, WTF Adama?

Ellen as a Cylon made a hell of a show closer, but it's gonna be awfully weird on Friday.

1) All cylons seem to want to bang other cylons. Isn't that.... funny. Chief, Boomer, Tigh, Ellen, Tigh, Six, Ellen, Cavil, Sam, Kara ... woooah now, how do I know all these names..

2) Ellen's gonna res on Cavil's ship, no? And she's gonna res a long time ago, no? Where was she in the big cylon civil war? Here's where my teeth grit a bit. As a creative artist I TOTALLY APPRECIATE free expression and free wheeling character arcs and writers saying "Huh, who knew we'd last 4 seasons. Ok the spine of the season's ... kinda set... but how do we get there? Well what if we did this and this. What if we ret con Callie into being a cheater. What if we ret con..." I don't think they knew Ellen was a cylon in the writer's room 3 years ago. I think they've come up with it now and they're winging it, but they better godamn hit a ball somewhere because this is either gonna be awesome or it's gonna suck.

3) Again, Ellen's gonna res on Cavil's ship... unless there's some other super secret Final Five Res Ship And Show Closer Emporium(tm) with Super RetCon Drive. That could be interesting... Since they lived on earth?? HMmmmmmm..

The biggest joy I've had since 4.5 started is seeing Leoben shit a brick when Kara finds her charred but beautifully coifed body. Leoben's whole character has seemed to be "I see plans within plans, I see the stream, all of this has happened before, all of this.." and then it goes "All of.. Hey what now? WOAH.. What? Woah, my streams, where are my, I want my blankie" The way he backs away from Kara? Priceless.

I was sad that Gaeta was executed so quickly. I was relieved Zarek was -- of course, I assume we all were supposed to feel that way after he shot the Quorum -- which, by the by, I felt even cut down from the original scene was a great rebuff to him -- "We'll wait for the PRESIDENT, Mr. Vice President, thx bye".

I'd sure love to get a headcount on the mutineers. All those marines looked like marines, not citizens wearing marine getup. That was a little... odd.. how easily they just murdered those people.. military drones just taking orders, was that the message?

And while I finish off this stream of fandom, if we were in that fictional universe, I think I might have been pro-cylon-airlock pre Earth, but post Earth? Fuckit, anything goes.
posted by cavalier at 3:05 PM on February 11, 2009 [2 favorites]


Zarek ordered the quorum killed because the entire plan hinged on getting the quorum to accept the legitimacy of him as president. You'll notice he has this little "oh shit" moment of panic after the quorum gives him the hairy eyeball right before he orders his goons to kill them.

It was a desperation move to consolidate power and ensure the success of the coup. As a matter of fact, you could say the only reason the plan failed was Felix's far less ruthless methods of dealing with Galactica. If Felix had "arranged" for Adama, Tigh, and Roslynn to be killed in the crossfire rather than insisting on formal punishments, the coup could have very well succeeded.

The big crack next to the FTL is the ship falling apart. The whole series is very entropic, characters die and aren't replaced, every missile that impacts on the ship leaves a crater for the rest of the series. C'mon, the show's called Battlestar Galactica, if there's one thing you can be sure of it's that the end of the series is going to be the destruction of the ship.
posted by Ndwright at 3:08 PM on February 11, 2009 [2 favorites]


The Leoben/Starbuck scene reminded me of a Xander quote from Buffy: "Generally speaking, when scary things get scared? Not good." Awesome.

I continue to hold out hope for my dream (heh) BSG ending: Zarek/Hatch wakes up in his bunk, sits up and looks around all confused. Then Dirk Benedict walks in wearing the full Colonial uniform and chomping a cigar. "Starbuck, I just had the strangest dream!"
posted by Bluecoat93 at 3:09 PM on February 11, 2009


The Galactica isn't going to survive to the last episode is my guess. But then I also guessed that it was the last of the Final Five, so whatever.
posted by turgid dahlia at 3:11 PM on February 11, 2009


HA ^Bluecoat. I forgot my second favorite 4.5 bit, with Kara just flat shooting the Skulls (thought it was heart, but the tubes are saying shoulder) for disagreeing with her. Classic Starbuck. She might not know what the hell she is, but if there is violence, she's there with a smile and devil may care. That fanservice got me right here [thumps cylon chip].
posted by cavalier at 3:14 PM on February 11, 2009


The way he backs away from Kara? Priceless.


Leoben's " So, go enjoy your dead body! I'll just be ..over here." was a thing of beauty.

Super RetCon Drive.

That's the one that makes Hotdog Nicky's son and has a "Make Starbuck MAGIC" button.
posted by The Whelk at 3:14 PM on February 11, 2009


In a 3 minute edit world I could have edited "the Skulls" into Skulls!
posted by cavalier at 3:14 PM on February 11, 2009


So many things about the last episode have bothered me, nearly all having to do with the writers deciding we weren't grown up enough to make our own judgements about who was right and who was wrong (come on, a fucking flash mob of do-gooders arrives to take back CIC? fuck you, RDM). But this is perhaps the biggest problem I had with how the coup was treated:

But the rebel Cylon do not now offer survival, but only convenience, and to accept their offer would be to deny the memory of the 49 billion or so that these very Cylon butchered four years ago.

No one ever made a convincing case that the extended range of the Cylon FTL drives was worth siding with a group that, until recently, you ran from and fought with everything you had because THEY WERE TRYING TO EXTERMINATE YOU. Not Adama, not Roslin, not any of the final five. No one. This is especially galling considering that no one could even think of a convincing place to go once the new FTL drives were installed.

And despite this glaring problem that, obviously, would have most of the fleet up in arms, we're supposed to think of Gaeta as a "hero-worshiping, rule-breaking, turncoat little creep with a Morpha habit" because he had the gall to defy Adama and Roslin, aka the old couple fiddling while Rome burned not two episodes ago.

I'm still hoping this is part of the descent into darkness the writers hope to take us on, where we discover that Gaeta was actually the hero all along, that Adama and Roslin really don't have a clue as to what to do next. And if that happens, I'll be here, telling all you bastards that I told you so.
posted by chrominance at 3:19 PM on February 11, 2009 [3 favorites]


Zarek had the quorum killed because he wasn't an idealist like Gaeta was. He didn't think he was doing what was right, he thought he was doing what was necessary. He was the realpolitician in the mix, fully understanding that they were seizing power by coup, not toppling an illegitimate government. He was under no illusions that it was a matter of a few decisive moves that would be greeted by flowers and candy, the way Gaeta was.

I disagree with Ndwright that it was a desperation move. The fact that the goons were there and ready to do it shows that Zarek knew it was one of two alternatives, depending upon which way the quorum went. He was prepared. I agree, thought, that Felix's far less ruthless methods were the weakness--his insistence on a trial for Adama, his need for an admission from Adama, were what gave the whole plan time to fall apart.
posted by fatbird at 3:21 PM on February 11, 2009


I'm putting all my money on an alarmingly-depressing progression with absolutely no hope offered at any point, then it ends. Which would actually be awesome in my opinion.

Hopefully it's a real ending and not some "It was all a dream" Newhart cop-out ending. If this has all been in Baltar's head since the attack on Caprica, I'm going to be very very pissed.


What if Bob Newhart wakes up and it's all a dream? How awesome would that be?

Given that the BSG cosmology is based on Mormon cosmology (and that Gaeta explicitly rejects God/the Gods in his last conversation with Baltar), the evil atheist homosexual does hit close to home.


Hahahahah ha ha. That's a good one. The first series used some mormon terminology, but honestly the new show has about as much to do with mormons as Obama's stimulus package has to do with scientology. If anything it's an homage to the greek pantheon with some Star Trek hand waving thrown in.
posted by blue_beetle at 3:34 PM on February 11, 2009


I'm listening to the RDM commentary on last Friday's episode and he just made an interesting statement re: killing the quorum. "We're headed towards the end [of the series]; we started this show without a quorum, and we're going to end without one."
posted by cavalier at 3:36 PM on February 11, 2009


murderers, rapists, torturers, and enslavers

Well, back when they were cool.
posted by Artw at 3:36 PM on February 11, 2009


Worse, Felix mutinied mostly out of a fit of pique for having lost his leg to a Cylon, a motivation that runs pretty far away from the noble goal of helping the resistance on New Caprica. He didn't care as much about the crew of BG or the lives of the fleet (though that was part of it, to a degree), so much as metaphorically scratching that damn itch on his phantom leg. He wanted to taste some payback for the hurt the Cylons have done to him.

In fairness to Felix, it seriously pissed me off that nothing happened to Anders. As far as I could tell, Helo's "mutiny" of the sewage ship was pretty much a by-the-book procedure, and Sam was the one who was kinda going off the rails when he shot Gaeta. Seriously, no trip to the brig, nothing? Granted, Adama seems to play favorites quite a lot -- sure, he'll cuss out Athena for shooting the Cylon ambassador for no reason at all, but all's forgiven in a week or two; he'll cuss out Starbuck for probably being a Cylon and breaking into the president's suite and holding her at fucking gunpoint, but then he gives her own ship -- but Sam? Who the fuck is Sam to Adama other than Kara's K-Fed? And this guy shot the leg off one of his crew? Actually, the people who pissed me off here were the writers, because that kind of makes no sense at all and I think the ball was dropped, really...but smoothing that scripting glitch over into story stuff, I can see why Gaeta would be highly ticked, is my point.

The only other character who displays overt non-heterosexuality is Admiral Cain, and that's in Razor, which not as many have seen, I'll wager. Even then, she's made out to be an archetypal eat-nails-spit-bullets psychodyke. Pretty lazy writing.

In the both cases (Cain and Gaeta), I get the impression the non-heterosexuality was an afterthought. Much was made amongst fandom folk of the "Frak you"/"You're not my type" exchange between Cain and PegaSix right before Cain got deservedly capped, but that was a line that could very easily have been referring to the torture the Six had received (presumably at male hands but all with Cain's blessing), or not really much of anything other than "you suck, Admiral Cain" (because, well, Admiral Cain kind of did suck at life). If it was meant to indicate that Cain and PegaSix had been lovers, though, that sure wasn't implied anywhere else in that arc. So yeah, I think that was an add-on later. And with Felix, I'm almost positive it was, because there weren't ever any hints either way (that I noticed; but then again, I'm not a shipper)...really, until New Caprica, Felix is just barely even a character at all. My guess is that Moore, et al, had the leeway to get gay characters past Sci-Fi, and saw that the audience demand was there, and just did it.

There's a lot of social conservatism I've anecdotally observed amongst much of sf fandom -- particularly of the sort that toward gravitate toward the kind of military sf BSG was much more centrally in its first two years -- and so I do wonder if gay characters (other than, of course, totally hawt lesbians) might not have been an issue for the Sci-Fi Channel bigwigs in the early days of the show. I also wonder, frankly, whether the show's writers even considered gay characters before their audience did. I'd be curious to hear Moore's take on the thinking behind these choices...but either way, I think it's pretty cool and progressive of them. Yeah, both these characters wound up being not so wonderful on the not-being-an-asshole scale, but really, everyone on this show is kind of morally murky.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:37 PM on February 11, 2009 [1 favorite]


I love this show.
posted by rtha at 3:49 PM on February 11, 2009 [1 favorite]


On Earth it's 2080 and everyone moves around on flying motorbikes. I would have gone with that ending. Shattered dreams, recriminations and blood letting aren't bad as a second choice though.
posted by vbfg at 3:51 PM on February 11, 2009


chrominance: I see where your problems are deriving from, and yeah, I could've used a little more - well, exposition isn't exactly the word, but at least an explanation as to what, if any, plan there was moving forward that required the FTL drives. However, I personally don't give a shit about the FTL drives. That's just a plot device to try to sell the rest of the fleet on keeping some cylons around.

What I care about is: Boomer (who, yes, shot the old man without any cognizance, but otherwise spent all of her energy trying to bring peace between Humanity and the Cylon* and then had to eventually quit because both sides were so hard-headed about it that she felt forced to choose one or the other. I care about Athena, who won her way into the trust of a man who has spent his whole career battling the Cylon by virtue of her loyalty to humanity. I care about Tyrol, Anders and Tigh, who upon learning of their true nature decided that "nothing's changed," and that they continue fighting for the fleet. And I care about the Sixes who led the revolt against the Cavils in order to try to stop the madness.

And okay, I don't care about Tory at all, nor do I trust her. We haven't yet seen what she's capable of, nor what she's aiming for, except for smirking as she airlocked Cally. But I trust the rest of them.

Assimilation, especially when it involves inter-breeding, is a far, far better "battle tactic" than Mutually Assured Destruction is. The cylons who want to join the fleet aren't the enemy - they're defectors and refugees and human-loyalists. If the series can have anything close to a happy ending by this point it will be because they found a way to work together. If it can't, it'll be because they decided it was better not to "deny the memory of" the 99.9% of humanity that died, and that honoring their memory was worth letting the last .1% die as well.

*I take it as cylons, no capitalization, when talking about, say, six and eight doing this or that and the Cylon, no "s", capitalized, when talking about the race as a whole.
posted by Navelgazer at 3:55 PM on February 11, 2009 [3 favorites]


My, this IS a large plate of beans, isn't it?

I blame everything on Tigh.
posted by disclaimer at 3:59 PM on February 11, 2009


I think the ending is obvious, especially with all the "it's happened before" crap they beat into us early in the series. Prediction:

The rebel cylons are going to be accepted into the fleet and get a voice in whatever government is left. In a very real way, it will be a reconstitution of the full 13 colonies, with 12 humans ones and 1 cylon one. They'll all live together on a single planet (let's call it New Kobol) until some day in the distant future they all have to split apart. Humans go one way, cylons another.

Humans forget their past and re-invent the cylons. Cylons war with themselves and/or the more intelligent centurions, seeding themselves back into the galaxy. These "seeds" fall into the hands of the new, human cylon race and the cycle starts all over again.

Rinse, wash, repeat.

Of course, I'm still convinced that Baltar is a cylon. His character just doesn't make any fucking sense otherwise. So I may be completely wrong on all parts.

Questions I still have:

1) What happens to the Cavil cylons? I'm assuming there's some big fight and they're wipped out, or they change their mind.

2) What is the secret of the Opera House? I expect it to be the final explanation of the whole story. If we go with Christian/Mormon myth, then Roslyn is obviously Moses. Which means two things: she is their prophet, and she dies before the promised land (but they do reach it).

3) What is Starbuck? No idea. I hope it's not something cheesy. I really felt her whole end in the first part of season 4 was poorly done b/c of the writers' strike.

4) What is the deal with the cylon/Baltar religion? There seems to be a lot more too it than just mumbo-jumbo. But it's hard to reconcile with a rational view of the series (that is: things should make sense and fit together). However, I love that the series creator gave the cylons a true religion. Not just the "we worship and obey our (human) maker" crap every other sci-fi series has.
posted by sbutler at 4:23 PM on February 11, 2009


I'm putting all my money on an alarmingly-depressing progression with absolutely no hope offered at any point, then it ends. Which would actually be awesome in my opinion.

How very, very 1970s New Wave.
posted by happyroach at 4:24 PM on February 11, 2009


Zarek was acting like Zarek should. Navelgazer has it right: absolutely megalomaniacal in his conviction. It's the natural progression from conviction to righteousness to self-righteousness and finally megalomania. Even RDM says in the enhanced version that Zarek would probably have offed Gaeta after he had consolidated power and no longer needed a military liason. He is fit to lead men, and no man is as fit as he.

And, yes, as much as I don't like it, Gaeta's path makes sense, too. He'd been turning from 'nice guy but shameless sycophant' more to 'bitchy and damaged second-runner-up' ever since New Caprica. His had been proven to be a faulty and weak personality (not like those paragons of stability, Roslin and Adama) so the fallover from merely annoying to actively murderous wasn't a great surprise, especially considering how they had foreshadowed this since the incident with his leg.

What really annoys me was the speed and flippancy that the whole thing was dispatched. A two-parter to rid ourselves of two of the most interesting anti-heroes of the series? C'mon, guys. I honestly thought that they would calve off part of the fleet, meet up with Cavil's faction of Cylons and have a battle royale with humans and cylons on both sides.
posted by eclectist at 4:30 PM on February 11, 2009 [2 favorites]


Could we have at least had 1 minute of exposition of "Where the frak do we go now?

I could have sworn there was a scene with Gaeta in the room as they discussed where to go. I think that's when Cyclon FTL drives first came up and Gaeta was like "Are fucking kidding me?!"

No one ever made a convincing case that the extended range of the Cylon FTL drives was worth siding with a group that, until recently, you ran from and fought with everything you had because THEY WERE TRYING TO EXTERMINATE YOU.

See above. Also remember they're with the Cylon group that broke off from Cavil's group (which tried to kill them) and helped Adama destroy a resurrection hub. Hell, all this group of Cylons has is a partially destroyed basestar, which could be taken out by Galatica, so no, it's not a big stretch. We never saw Roslin explicitly explaining to the fleet why an alliance was good, but I always thought it was implied since, you know, they helped destroy the hub, sealing their own fate. No way they kept that secret.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:41 PM on February 11, 2009


Tom Zarek = Che Guevara
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:48 PM on February 11, 2009


Seriously though check out Devastator.
posted by turgid dahlia at 4:56 PM on February 11, 2009 [1 favorite]


But refreshing that we have gay characters where their sexuality is wa down the list of what's important about them, where it really desn't matter, rather than making a big artificial point of how it doesn't matter.

My issue with how they have handled the two explicitly queer characters on this show is the fact that they were retconned gay - after both characters were dead. Cain was only written as gay in "Razor" and her character was long since dead. Gaeta was only written as gay in the webisodes - and that was shot after the series was finished shooting.

It's a bit unfortunate that the only time they wrote queer characters was at a point where they knew they wouldn't have to write for them again or deal with them in regular series continuity.

I like the argument that writing gay characters sexuality should be way down the list of what's interesting about them - but until they are easily identifiable as gay, that's kind of a moot point. It's like the Dumbledore thing all over again.
posted by crossoverman at 5:22 PM on February 11, 2009


Tom Zarek = Che Guevara

Nah, but it was worth a try:

Che Felix
Che Zarek
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:33 PM on February 11, 2009


See above. Also remember they're with the Cylon group that broke off from Cavil's group (which tried to kill them) and helped Adama destroy a resurrection hub. Hell, all this group of Cylons has is a partially destroyed basestar, which could be taken out by Galatica, so no, it's not a big stretch.

That really seems to be the point. The Cylons are mortal now, and these Cylons, these rebels, these human-lovers, want to help and want protection in return. It's interesting that all the rebelling models are the models with the most interaction with humanity. I think Cavil is hiding something. Something big. He's always patronized the rest of them and when his Warrior Of the Faith, D'Anna, started getting all mystical and had her Own Personal Revelation, he had her boxed. The secret of the Opera House, the cyclical nature of events, I think Cavil knows it all and has been working on his own plan for a long, long time. We only have his word on so many things.

Starbuck is Something Else. I hope they doint frak it up. My own personal private thought? She's really the first Human-Cylon hybrid. Her mother was really ...weird about her fulfilling her destiny and such ..and her mother fought in the first Cylon war.


The Head Sixes and Head Baltars are a big sore point the series needs to wrap up nicely..but I have no idea how to that without veering into the religion/mysticism thing. Which I actually like and admire the show for doing, but it's a big fuzzy blanket you can use to cover up anything.
posted by The Whelk at 5:40 PM on February 11, 2009



My issue with how they have handled the two explicitly queer characters on this show is the fact that they were retconned gay - after both characters were dead. Cain was only written as gay in "Razor" and her character was long since dead. Gaeta was only written as gay in the webisodes - and that was shot after the series was finished shooting.


That was mentioned in the podcasts, that they wrote and shot the episodes before the webepisodes when the idea of expressing out Gaeta's Throbbing Subtext. RDM lamented that it came after they'd shot the mutiny episodes cause there should be more of Hoshi reacting to this and his torn loyalties and ect. and making it a more interesting episode.
posted by The Whelk at 5:44 PM on February 11, 2009


Well, the Cylons had a plan.

What that was we'll never know.
posted by bwg at 5:55 PM on February 11, 2009


Well, the Cylons had a plan.

What that was we'll never know.


Given how each episode is getting exponentially bleaker, I imagine it will involve kittens and sulfuric acid.
posted by bibliowench at 6:13 PM on February 11, 2009 [6 favorites]


Conveniently, once the show is done, the writers will know how it all pans out. Then they release the series-ending movie The Plan, which usefully shoehorns the four seasons and change into, well, "The Plan".
posted by turgid dahlia at 6:18 PM on February 11, 2009


Yes we will.

Though with a title like that, they may as well have called it, "Retcon: The Movie."
posted by Ndwright at 6:21 PM on February 11, 2009


"Retcon: The Movie."

It's the shiny red button that will make everything MAKE SENSE DAMMNIT Or I will run down the street with a flame thrower powered by my own whiskey fumes.
posted by The Whelk at 6:27 PM on February 11, 2009 [1 favorite]


My personal theories are as follows:

- The dead Earth was populated by the 13th tribe of humans.

- The robotic Cylons, retreating from the first war, encountered the 13th tribe and exacted what they believed was revenge against these "obviously" complicit humans ("This has all happened before.."). Thus the old-school Cylon Centurion remains on the planet.

- The technology to grow human-like bodies and transfer consciousness into them was in its infancy at the time of the attack.

- The robo-Cylons annihilate the 13th tribe.

- The Final Five, presumably scientists working on the resurrection project, manage to resurrect and make their way back to the Colonies using the technology that rebuilt Starbuck and sent her back to the fleet. (This technology is still active somewhere beneath Dead Earth.) The other seven are caught unawares and are killed, leaving their resurrection facilities intact.

- The robo-Cylons discover the machinery to produce what would become the skinjob lines and adapt the technology to their own use. The facilities or blueprints to produce the Final Five are lost or destroyed, and they come to understand this incompleteness later on and mythologize it.

- The robo-Cylons begin skinjob production and (as a new hybrid race) move against the Twelve Colonies, sure in their mission at first but dealing with the human condition for the first time -- thus the experimentation, the fascination with love, the frustration with their apparent sterility, and the eventual philosophical questioning of the entire premise of the war.

I think that members of the fleet are critically oversimplifying when they refer to the Final Five as Cylons. They have the same bodies as skinjobs, yes, but they are not Cylons proper; they are unique (if amnesiac) individuals of human origin.
posted by lumensimus at 6:30 PM on February 11, 2009 [1 favorite]


Well, the Cylons had a plan.

What that was we'll never know.


Ellen hasn't even started talking yet.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:54 PM on February 11, 2009


'Cylon' is not plural.

Perhaps it's just living in a country with Maori as an official language, but I'm often more piqued by what I see as unnecessary pluralisation. 'Maori' is singular and plural, and that's the case for many words within the Maori language.

Given that the BSG cosmology is based on Mormon cosmology

The whole "polytheism and the uprising cult of the single God threatening to displace them" centered around Baltar struck you as Mormonism? Looks to me like someone cribbing their plots from Roman history...
posted by rodgerd at 7:01 PM on February 11, 2009


You know an episode went over well when it inspires 87 comments. I've had my ups and downs with this series (I'll try to forget the impenetrable second half of the third season), but they've come out swinging with the last few episodes. Here's hoping they keep up the pace and end with a bang.

I was also happy to see the execution of the Quorum. I get to feel horror for Zareks murdering, and simultaneously pleased that the series has disposed with a bunch of whiney plotless characters who's only role was to occasionally reinforce the obvious.
posted by Popular Ethics at 7:30 PM on February 11, 2009


See above. Also remember they're with the Cylon group that broke off from Cavil's group (which tried to kill them) and helped Adama destroy a resurrection hub. Hell, all this group of Cylons has is a partially destroyed basestar, which could be taken out by Galatica, so no, it's not a big stretch. We never saw Roslin explicitly explaining to the fleet why an alliance was good, but I always thought it was implied since, you know, they helped destroy the hub, sealing their own fate. No way they kept that secret.

Great, congratulations, but that was all an alliance of convenience made because they all wanted to find Earth. Earth is a smoldering husk (though honestly? not that much of a smoldering husk—another oddity from the writers?), so what use are the rebel Cylons now? And let's not forget the rebel Cylons had a plan to take hostages after the destruction of the resurrection hub (as did the Colonials).

No one really trusts each other very much. And why not, after everything that's happened to the fleet? Oh, these are the OTHER Cylons, the ones who murdered us and nuked our cities and chased us to the ends of the universe and subjugated us in a brutal occupation and tried to take our ancestral homeworld away from us, and THEN had a change of heart and decided to treat us nice. I guess that makes it okay, then!

In light of all of that, you'd think Roslin and Adama could spare just a few words explaining to the fleet why the FTL drives and the Cylons are worth keeping around, instead of just leaving them in the dust. Instead we get a whole lot of "this is military jurisdiction" and "boohoo I'm gonna burn my Pythian prophesies because I'm so emo" and "do what I frakkin' say or I'm gonna storm your ships with Marines and make you do what I want."

So now we have confirmation from the writers that this sort of governance is exactly what we should praise. And I really do think the writers approve, partially because of comments like this that seem to miss the point entirely:
Insensitive statement that it may be, I have to say that I won't miss the quorum. Their demise will have the benefit to give Adama/Roslyn a freer hand. Not that it will necessarily by better. Roslyn and Adama are not perfect. But at least there will a bit more cohesion in the fleet leadership.
and partially because of how manipulative some scenes from the last episode were in order to demarcate evil and good. For fuck's sake, Racetrack was laughing at Zarek's jokes while our apparent heroes scowl in the hangar deck about what to do next. And of course there's the aforementioned Anti-Mutiny Flash Mob. I felt like the writers pulled every trick in the book to get me to side with Adama and Roslin.
posted by chrominance at 7:31 PM on February 11, 2009


> The robotic Cylons, retreating from the first war, encountered the 13th tribe and exacted what they believed was revenge against these "obviously" complicit humans ("This has all happened before.."). Thus the old-school Cylon Centurion remains on the planet.

Two problems here: the nuclear annihilation occurred thousands of years earlier, and it's not an old school cylon they find--they explicitly say that it's a similar but different kind.
posted by fatbird at 7:38 PM on February 11, 2009


and partially because of how manipulative some scenes from the last episode were in order to demarcate evil and good. For fuck's sake, Racetrack was laughing at Zarek's jokes while our apparent heroes scowl in the hangar deck about what to do next. And of course there's the aforementioned Anti-Mutiny Flash Mob. I felt like the writers pulled every trick in the book to get me to side with Adama and Roslin.

See, regardless of what the writers' intent may have been, that's not entirely what I got from it. I can't imagine we're really supposed to feel great about Gaeta and Zarek getting it from a firing squad -- defenseless, unarmed -- while our heroes look on and look either stoic or sick. What I mean is that their deaths should be satisfying, because Zarek has killed the annoying but well-meaning (and -- finally -- badass) quorom (and worse yet, Laird, who didn't do shit except his job, and survived Pegasus, fer chrissake), and Gaeta has just been a tool at every turn, but it's actually just kind of awful. A show without such massive testicles would have played it differently, had Zarek and Gaeta get taken out in a firefight, maybe even by an overzealous redshirt while they were trying to surrender for that extra bit of pathos, but this one lets the scenario play out: They're traitors, and worse yet they were traitors who got a lot of people on their side; examples have to be made. It's every bit as heroic as Tigh poisoning his wife, and it's not hard to imagine that everyone in the room who isn't dead goes and pukes someplace shortly thereafter.

And that's leaving aside entirely the question of whether the coup was at all justified. My feeling about it, to paraphrase The Big Lebowski, is: I think Gaeta is kind of going, "Am I wrong?!" and the only logical response really is, "No, Felix, you're not wrong -- you're just an asshole!" Because, yeah, it all could have been handled better, even if they really didn't have time to fuck around and take a vote whether to install the drives. It is turning into a strongman system. That they're benevolent dictators doesn't change the fact that they're acting like it's a dictatorship.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:05 PM on February 11, 2009 [4 favorites]


The long term survival of both races is greatly improved if both are included in the breeding pool. Its not pretty or pleasant (well, ok, the three Cyclon models are pretty) but if you are thinking in terms of survival of the species, you have to let little things like universal enslavement of the cylons and near-genocide of the humans slide a little bit.
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:06 PM on February 11, 2009


You know, I was thinking about it the other night and came to an important realization : Colonel Tigh? Worst. Robot. Evar.

Seriously, who the hell would buy a robot like that? Doesn't cook. Won't clean up your room. Meaner than all hell. Drinks all your booze.

I'd take a roomba over Tigh any day of the week.
posted by Afroblanco at 8:09 PM on February 11, 2009 [20 favorites]


Who the fuck is Sam to Adama other than Kara's K-Fed?

Maybe Bill is a big Caprica Buccaneers fan?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:22 PM on February 11, 2009


I felt like the writers pulled every trick in the book to get me to side with Adama and Roslin.

I see that they tried that, though in the end while the story resolved itself in a way that feeds the narrative I expected (obviously Adama and Roslin are going to come out on top), I don't think they succeeded in making the case for the Adama/Roslin Regime. Which is fine by me, I'm happy to watch a story about those two being dictators - even if they are repugnant to me on a personal level. It's an interesting dynamic.
posted by crossoverman at 8:26 PM on February 11, 2009


Tigh == Bender
posted by cheaily at 8:46 PM on February 11, 2009 [8 favorites]


Maybe Bill is a big Caprica Buccaneers fan?

Nope; Bill Adama is a Picon Panthers fan

*Go Panthers!*

Yes, I'm a geek, why do you ask?
posted by eclectist at 8:55 PM on February 11, 2009


oh man, thanks for that Hatch stuff. Love to see what the actors have been thinking as they live in the skins of these characters.
posted by mwhybark at 9:04 PM on February 11, 2009


has achewood evar did a BSG scene enacted whilst stood on Roombas?
posted by mwhybark at 9:06 PM on February 11, 2009


I think it's gonna turn out that they are all Cyclons. What a twist!
posted by five fresh fish at 9:07 PM on February 11, 2009 [1 favorite]


Tigh == Cyber-Lahey
posted by bunnytricks at 9:10 PM on February 11, 2009 [1 favorite]


I don't think they succeeded in making the case for the Adama/Roslin Regime. Which is fine by me, I'm happy to watch a story about those two being dictators - even if they are repugnant to me on a personal level. It's an interesting dynamic.

I'd kind of love it if that was the case, that Mom and Dad really aren't the Best Hope For Humanity and in fact perverted it, but I don't think we have enough episodes left to explore that.


P.S GO MOM AND DAD
posted by The Whelk at 9:16 PM on February 11, 2009


I adore Roslin and Adama, but I in no way see the writers trying to get us to love them, or find them faultless. I've wanted to smack both of them on several occasions. Also, Zarek and Gaeta *had legitimate points*. The show is not easily digestible and requires that you can hold two contradictory thoughts in your head at the same time.

And I think this whole season has rocked. So there.

(Roslin = Galadriel when offered The Ring)
posted by tzikeh at 10:28 PM on February 11, 2009


The last two episodes have had way less crying, I'll give them that.
posted by Artw at 11:34 PM on February 11, 2009


What was stupid about how the writers miraculously rescued the principle characters is that we never get to see Gaeta grow into a strong leader. He was using Zarek, and would have killed him eventually after he murdered of the quorum. He would have probably killed him regardless. He had no qualms about doing so to the traitorous Baltar.

It's funny to see people try to belittle him, accuse him of basing his resentment on his leg. How many episodes have focused on Adama's and Roslyn's crushing and whining about their responsibilities? Tough girl Starbuck is really an emo basket-case. Tigh lives in a bottle. Tyrol is completely unstable, like a bomb about to go off. You've been lead on a string, caring about the characters you're supposed to care about, and hating the ones you're supposed to hate.

Gaeta was already nearly executed by the very people he served, and he accepted it because he knew it was out of hatred for their enemy. He has a reservoir of silent strength that is severely lacking in most of the primary characters.

At this point, I'm rooting for the Cylons to finish what they started. I'm tired of these weak, broken people masquerading as strong, wise, and virtuous. If it doesn't end like Hamlet, I don't want to see it.
posted by 0xdeadc0de at 5:11 AM on February 12, 2009 [4 favorites]


I like that the leadership is flawed and makes mistakes and that sometimes you hate them. If we could root for them without that little feeling of man these people have fucked up a lot but I still have faith in their ability to see the colonists through then the show would be way more boring (at least to me). I also think that working with the cylon makes perfect sense from Adama's point of view (and perhaps Roslin's); they have sworn to help the colonists make it to Earth (or a reasonable facsimile thereof). At this point you have a group of cylon who can help them reach that goal so using them to that end seems reasonable. I think that drive to see this through is what lets people like Adama set aside that pesky xenocide/genocide thing. He sees that this group of cylon want to help and have the means to do it so he will exploit it. There is certainly an aspect of paternalism to that, but thats who Adama is.

I have some unformed thoughts about the theme of how we define humanity and how that is explored throughout the show. maybe I'll post again.
posted by zennoshinjou at 6:32 AM on February 12, 2009


"Starbuck is Something Else. I hope they doint frak it up. My own personal private thought? She's really the first Human-Cylon hybrid. Her mother was really ...weird about her fulfilling her destiny and such ..and her mother fought in the first Cylon war."

Quoted for win.
posted by orthogonality at 7:30 AM on February 12, 2009


I'm going to guess that this is all leading towards a great crisis where the fleet is in danger of being destroyed... and then is. And then everybody is suprised to be resurrected yet again, all together in the crowd of some big event where they can do a quick camera pan from character to character as they all recognize each other. Curtain.
posted by Caviar at 8:13 AM on February 12, 2009 [1 favorite]


I felt like the writers pulled every trick in the book to get me to side with Adama and Roslin.

Well yeah, but they've been doing that the entire series, that's the gist of the characters, that whatever flaws they have, they are THE shit when it comes to leading in their respective arenas. Fucking with either of them could earn you a serious and humiliating ass whipping, everyone knows that. You do not cross Mom or Dad, god help you if you cross both of them.

The point of the mutiny, storywise, was to show that things are so bad, people are willing go against Mom and Dad, at least until they rally the troops. Remember Zarek and Gaeta went to great lengths to make sure Roslin and Adama were cut off from communication because they knew of Mom and Dad could talk to the troops, the mutiny wouldn't last long at all.

That's why the growing crowd behind Adama makes sense as he heads to CIC. Dad was back in charge and getting ready to kick anyone's ass who didn't fall in line.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:22 AM on February 12, 2009 [3 favorites]


Tough girl Starbuck is really an emo basket-case.

Yeah, the Starbuck love passes me by. "Oh, I got your brother killed and I'm going to dump that shit in your lap so I dont' feel bad about myself when I think I'm about to die." Classy, lady, classy.
posted by rodgerd at 12:31 PM on February 12, 2009


Wow, well tonight certainly was a lot to digest.
posted by homunculus at 8:06 PM on February 13, 2009


RE: Tonight.


I.

WAS.

RIGHT.

BITCHES.
posted by The Whelk at 8:16 PM on February 13, 2009


My mind is so tattered from all that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:52 PM on February 13, 2009


Oh shit I forgot Felix is actually gay.

What, the show tunes didn't give him away?

Kidding, he wasn't really singing show tunes.

But that would have been cool.
posted by bwg at 3:19 AM on February 14, 2009


BSG: The final Cylon will be revealed!

Me: Yay!

BSG: Its Ellen Tigh!

Me: OMG! Ummm . . . huh.

BSG: Oh and did I forget to mention . . . . there's also one other Cylon that nobody knows about!

Me: Yay!
posted by ND¢ at 5:28 AM on February 14, 2009


To recap: Cavil killed his brother, tortured his father, had sex with his mother and then burned every village to the ground.

Yep, that's Ellen Tigh's son.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:30 AM on February 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


More points:

Oh yeah, Cavil the son was made in the image of Ellen's father. Figures BSG does something to make Oedipus look tame.

The big dumb jock knew all the secrets!

Ellen offers Boomer an apple and then eats it herself.

Boomer gets redemption, sort of. And she'll meet Cylon chief!

Mysterious 13th cyclon and no knows who Starbuck's father was. Interessting....or is Starbuck a rough recreation of Daniel?

Will Galatica need a hybrid to control it now?

Both of Adama's loves gets saved by Cylons.

BSG says "frak you" to the 'show don't tell' rule of writing.

is this massive info dump what resurrection feels like?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:58 AM on February 14, 2009


....or is Starbuck a rough recreation of Daniel?

No, John Hodgman is.
posted by homunculus at 9:01 AM on February 14, 2009


BSG and John Hodgman. Two great tastes that don't go great together. No offense if you're reading JHo.
posted by ND¢ at 1:20 PM on February 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


I agree about Hodgman… save that regardless the writers' best efforts, there really is no way to end this show in a way that doesn't leave whalloping great paradoxes about the true nature of the "human race" depicted in BSG. It is a story and it is best we don't pretend that it represents a real slice of human history.

I found Hodgman brought a sense of necessary disreality to the show. BSG should not be the One True Religion. It is a story, and this helps me recognize it as such.

(Otherwise, I have to believe that the One True Religion is indeed true, and that humans invented cylons, who co-invented life, and went back in time to seed the universe, so that we could exist. Or some weird shit like that.)
posted by five fresh fish at 9:55 PM on February 14, 2009


The Mac dude is the seventh CyPod.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:08 AM on February 15, 2009


BSG says "frak you" to the 'show don't tell' rule of writing.

is this massive info dump what resurrection feels like?


I think the info dump-as-resurrection is what makes me forgive the show for doing 44 minutes of exposition so close to the end. It really feels like it's all impossible to absorb; see Ellen's reaction at the beginning and Sam's difficulty expressing it all.
posted by crossoverman at 6:30 PM on February 15, 2009


According to the podcast, the Ellen story was supposed to be part of earlier episode but got pushed back for space reasons, so that's why this episode was so exposition heavy. Still I think it worked well here.

Moore also cops to general plot holes, but essentially says "fuck it," which is oddly refreshing and freeing. Like some mad pilot with a patched up plane, he's flying on to complete his mission, good bless him.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:33 PM on February 15, 2009 [1 favorite]


They had a flight-plan...
posted by Artw at 8:31 PM on February 15, 2009 [1 favorite]


So... anyone watch Dollhouse?
posted by Artw at 8:31 PM on February 15, 2009


So... anyone watch Dollhouse?


*raises hand*

Interesting premise but creaky, creaky pilot. It was like watching Explaining Your Concept For Dummies (and now we bring in the secondary antagonist. Cue the 2nd act conflict!) I was refreshingly surprised by ED's acting, in that she did some.
posted by The Whelk at 6:12 AM on February 16, 2009


It was a bit of a strain for her. I wonder what exciting new character she'll play next week.
posted by Artw at 9:48 AM on February 16, 2009



It was a bit of a strain for her. I wonder what exciting new character she'll play next week


Hmm, some kind of Sexy Lawyer? Sexy Ninja? Sexy Doctor? Sexy Sex Person? The mind boggles!
posted by The Whelk at 10:38 AM on February 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


They are all such different roles! For instance Sexy Lawyer and Sexy Doctor would wear glasses, until they took them off to become Sexy Sex Person!
posted by Artw at 11:02 AM on February 16, 2009


... and they have a, retconned, plan
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:11 PM on February 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


And Dollhouse? Joe90 did it better. Esp the theme tune.

But I want to see more of the ex-Evil Oriental from Neighbours who turned up at the end
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:16 PM on February 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


... and they have a, retconned, plan

Well, one of them has a plan, the rest are clueless idiots who bumble along going along with that plan.
posted by Artw at 2:57 PM on February 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


Well, one of them has a plan, the rest are clueless idiots who bumble along going along with that plan.

To be fair, they were programmed to bumble along with the plan.
posted by crossoverman at 7:31 PM on February 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


To be fair, they were programmed to bumble along with the plan.

This is probobly a more profound summation of the series than you intended. I don't even think the wirters intended it.


No seriously, the sixes are built to Love and the eights are built to follow and the twos give them faith and the threes are keep them in line and number one kept them together against Mommy and oh god I've just ruined any chance of ever having sex again
posted by The Whelk at 10:19 PM on February 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


Ellen as the cylon's creator? Final Five as the creators of the second war? Shoe horning the robots (er centurions) finding religion and thus influencing the final five? My mind is blown.

I'm very close to just giving in and calling this a new show. Season 1 was the pilot. Season 2 was the criticism of the war on terror. Season 3 was a hey we got a new season? And now Season 4 is like ANYTHING GOESS WOOOOOO
posted by cavalier at 6:27 AM on February 17, 2009


ANYTHING GOES WOOOOOOOOO with subheader HOLY SHIT ALL THESE THREADS WE HAVE TO WRAP
posted by cavalier at 6:27 AM on February 17, 2009


Really they should have had multiple TV screens behind the explainy guy showing possible reactions. Maybe they'll do that for the equivalent episode of Lost.
posted by Artw at 5:32 PM on February 17, 2009


Man, God is a total bitch sometimes, amiright?
posted by The Whelk at 9:32 PM on February 20, 2009


Dollhouse 2 actually seemed a bit more interesting, and more recognisably by the guy who did Firefly.

(Sexy Running Person this week)
posted by Artw at 8:26 AM on February 21, 2009


and more recognisably by the guy who did Firefly.

A little too much, several of Echo's lines could have come straight outta Buffy's mouth. The Whedon stock characters are in place: Spunky Yet Dangerous, Nerdy Yet Vaugely Dangerous, Stodgy Yet Protectively Dangerous, and Slightly Out Of It Yet Dangerous. In time (and it is just season 1, I'm a DVD watcher, I take the long view) the characters should become more distinct ...but right now Echo is Generic Whedon Female. Which may be the point.

I don't mean to say Ellen was acting bitchy, she did after all find out her one connection to the world, her thousand-year long romance just hit a serious rough patch ..and that her Zeus fucked and impregnated her daughter. Juno/Hera tended to turn people into statues for that kinda thing.
posted by The Whelk at 12:43 PM on February 21, 2009




Man, I loved Ellen's little scenelet with Caprica Six, toying with her and twisting her and shooting out abortion rays with her eyes.
posted by The Whelk at 6:35 AM on February 24, 2009


Well, apparently, you can kill a Cylon baby by being sad at it. Not so strong now, are they...
posted by Caviar at 8:20 PM on February 24, 2009 [2 favorites]


By the final episode Cylons will be a threat roughly on the level of puppies or kittens.
posted by Artw at 10:10 PM on February 24, 2009


I was wondering when they were going to bring back Muffit.
posted by Caviar at 10:14 AM on February 25, 2009


I bet a hybrid would be able to save Galatica. If only there was one around...

Chief, don't let Helo or Athena find you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:20 PM on February 27, 2009


...and with Episode 3 Dollhouse swings back from being possibly interesting to being idiotic and dull. Let's hope that's as bad as it gets.

I haven't bothered watching BSG this week, TBH I'm not sure I can be arsed anymore.
posted by Artw at 1:00 AM on February 28, 2009


These final BSG episodes aren't really working for me. I think it's for the best that the series is coming to a close.
posted by homunculus at 9:17 AM on February 28, 2009


Blasphemy! Put him in the airlock.

BSG has issues, no question, but as a whole it's kept be interested. Not completely sure where they're going with the ending and it's doubtful they'll tie up all the plotlines, but as a work of fiction it's endlessly fascinating.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:51 AM on February 28, 2009


TBH I should just send my past self a note saying "The ending is something to do with Ellen, don't bother watching the rest" - probably just before the awful boxing episode would be a good time for it, as the whole escape from New Caprica was probably the last time we saw anything cool happen.
posted by Artw at 3:10 PM on February 28, 2009


What, you didn't like the revelation that Starbuck's missing father is the super secret thirteenth Bob Dylan Cylon model they just conviently remembered to mention a few episodes ago?
posted by Caviar at 8:26 AM on March 2, 2009


I think at some point fanfic and actual script swapped places.
posted by Artw at 9:12 AM on March 2, 2009 [2 favorites]


But you're missing the subtle subtext of that episode... being a creative person is really hard!
(But if I never hear an out of tune piano ever again it will be too soon)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:35 AM on March 2, 2009


Well at least we got more back-story on why Starbuck is all Emo and shit, because we really needed that.

That little bit where she was actually doing her job and not freaking out or being weird or emoting messily all over the place? That was actually a lot more interesting.
posted by Artw at 10:05 AM on March 2, 2009


Dude, I will defend that boxing episode TO THE DEATH because it has Roslin and Adama making stoned goggly eyes at each other.
posted by The Whelk at 10:49 AM on March 2, 2009


Viper pilots competing with Cylon raiders for the last tube of toothpaste in the universe? That's gold!
posted by Caviar at 11:34 AM on March 2, 2009


Fucking A. I have a serious wager that we'll be seeing Adama attempting to launch over one of the water tanks on a six while Baltar's followers dress up in shark suits and yell at him before this season is done.

It's so frustrating. They had a plan, and that plan ended at Earth. They're winging it so freakin hard now the wings are gonna come off.
posted by cavalier at 12:17 PM on March 2, 2009


Though good old pscyhopathic Boomer was a nice re-tread thread.
posted by cavalier at 12:18 PM on March 2, 2009


But it's not the real Earth. It's only a copy the Cylons colonized a few thousand years ago.
posted by Caviar at 6:35 PM on March 2, 2009


Real Earth has flying motorcycles.
posted by Artw at 8:04 PM on March 2, 2009


Flying motorcylons would kick ass.
posted by Caviar at 6:58 AM on March 3, 2009


On earth Cylons can be defeated by fooling them into standing too near a microwave oven.
posted by Artw at 3:18 PM on March 3, 2009


I don't believe you. Microwave ovens are completely safe.
posted by Caviar at 5:37 PM on March 3, 2009


CASE STUDY IN HOW DIRECTION, CHARACTER, AND SCRIPT CAN AFFECT ACTOR' PERFORMANCE: Tahmoh Penikett
posted by The Whelk at 8:09 PM on March 6, 2009


More of this Dollhouse stuff eh?

Are we giving up on BSG? Cause lords know I have. I'm closing my eyes and pretending landing on earth was the end of the series. This is a mini episodic written by the fans with meandering, lethargic plot devices and absurd contortions of history. Galactica was fine for 4 seasons! Now it's about to explode! Gaius Baltar somehow manages to continue his cult and gain power!!%??? The cylons fucking BROUGHT A HYBRID TANK over to Galactica and PLUGGED IT IN with no one noticing? Fuck youuuuuuuuuuu! Up next, Adama jumping over sharks!
posted by cavalier at 7:51 AM on March 9, 2009 [1 favorite]


On earth the galactica kids will be able to jump a shark pit 20 foot wide! (in slow mo with a sort of 'boing' noise IIRC)
posted by Artw at 8:29 AM on March 9, 2009


But only while riding a motorcylon.
posted by Caviar at 8:31 AM on March 9, 2009


Hell no! Unassisted, from standing.
posted by Artw at 8:50 AM on March 9, 2009


BTW I hope the money they saved on making the eeevil Cylon base out of some chickenwire a sheet of semi-transparent plastic is going to go on a decent space fight, and not, y'know, extra weeping and painting and decorating and shit. Yeah, I'm looking at you Adama, smash a fucking boat or something.
posted by Artw at 8:52 AM on March 9, 2009


Yeah that final space battle better just be completely epic... Actually I think, like a sado fan fiction writer, I'm gonna write my own ending, because I really don't trust the proper writers at this point...
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:45 AM on March 9, 2009


Up next, Adama jumping over sharks!

Adama punches a shark! then offers it booze! Laura is skeptical about the Shark! Kara wonders what the Shark means, about her, and her destiny. Lee is off camera! Tory and the Sark share a knowing look! Baltar tries to sleep with the shark!


P.S: The Shark is a cylon.
posted by The Whelk at 11:25 AM on March 9, 2009 [3 favorites]


Does the shark explode or shoot laser beams? It might get my interest if it did either of those things.
posted by Artw at 11:39 AM on March 9, 2009


The big reveal, of course, is that the father of the Cylons was Takezo Kensei all along. (Oh, sorry, you mentioned Sark, and I went off on a tangent there.)
posted by Caviar at 6:14 PM on March 9, 2009


WE ARE ALL TANGENTS!

GUYS. GUYS! REALLY.
posted by The Whelk at 8:37 PM on March 9, 2009


I'm really more of a secant.
posted by Caviar at 9:56 PM on March 9, 2009


This is not going to be the ending you’re anticipating.

What you mean it won't be anticlimactic and/or disappointing

My incentive to wrap things up after four seasons came, in large part, from my experience on 'Star Trek: The Next Generation,'" Moore told TV Guide. "By our last season, we were creatively exhausted and pulling cockamamy story ideas out of thin air

Hmmmmm
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 5:10 AM on March 10, 2009 [2 favorites]


Yes. That's fitting.

Battlestar Galactica Season 4.5: Creatively Exhausted and Pulling Cockamamy Story Ideas out of Thin Air.
posted by cavalier at 6:47 AM on March 10, 2009


Man, I am looking forward to that episode where Tigh falls in love with the same handsome alien Scottish ghost that sexed his grandmother.
posted by Greg Nog at 7:32 AM on March 10, 2009 [5 favorites]


...on the holodeck.
posted by Artw at 9:52 AM on March 10, 2009


I can't wait until Data Boomer turns evil for the 18th time.

Seriously, if you subtract the times Data turned evil and tried to kill them from the times he saved them I think Data was a net loss for the Enterprise.
posted by ND¢ at 10:32 AM on March 10, 2009


ST synopses that feature the word “Data”, like ones that feature the word “HoloDeck”, pretty much indicate assured suckage. Modify that by several thousand percent if the word “Humanity” also features.
posted by Artw at 11:44 AM on March 10, 2009


Oh, come on now, I liked alot of episodes containing either Data OR the HoloDeck. Patrick Stewart as the gritty detective -- and, scene!
posted by cavalier at 1:13 PM on March 10, 2009


You'll be defending dream episiodes next.
posted by Artw at 1:26 PM on March 10, 2009


That Troi cake was delicious.
posted by Caviar at 6:34 AM on March 11, 2009


To be honest, I'm quite enjoying the show and I look forward to the next episode each week as we come to a close. But the net quality of the entirety of seasons 3 and 4 is completely dependent on whether the actual ending sucks or not. If it does, it won't have been worth it. (While the first two seasons stand alone as high quality regardless.)
posted by Caviar at 7:23 AM on March 11, 2009


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