Al Trautwig's "Lost" Thoughts
May 13, 2009 11:02 AM Subscribe
I got distracted by the previous roles of Lost actors.
Richard Alpert was Batmanuel?! I'm going to go watch an episode of The Tick live-action series, just for the bizarreness of that.
posted by Pronoiac at 11:27 AM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
Richard Alpert was Batmanuel?! I'm going to go watch an episode of The Tick live-action series, just for the bizarreness of that.
posted by Pronoiac at 11:27 AM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
"I got distracted by the previous roles of Lost actors."
And Hurley was one of Ted Danson's "Becker" pals at the coffee shop.
posted by Servo5678 at 11:32 AM on May 13, 2009
And Hurley was one of Ted Danson's "Becker" pals at the coffee shop.
posted by Servo5678 at 11:32 AM on May 13, 2009
Pronoiac,
Yes it's true! It's all I can think of when he's on the screen.
posted by Asbestos McPinto at 11:34 AM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
Yes it's true! It's all I can think of when he's on the screen.
posted by Asbestos McPinto at 11:34 AM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
Everyone else was on Oz or Deadwood.
posted by hifiparasol at 11:34 AM on May 13, 2009
posted by hifiparasol at 11:34 AM on May 13, 2009
No.
Al Trautwig's overwrought narration of Ironman is bad enough. I will not subject myself to what he has to say about "Lost"*.
*Unless, you know, he also thinks that Nikki and Paolo were worthless.
posted by RakDaddy at 11:36 AM on May 13, 2009
Al Trautwig's overwrought narration of Ironman is bad enough. I will not subject myself to what he has to say about "Lost"*.
*Unless, you know, he also thinks that Nikki and Paolo were worthless.
posted by RakDaddy at 11:36 AM on May 13, 2009
Yes it's true! It's all I can think of when he's on the screen.
Even better, he's also the mayor of Gotham in "The Dark Knight." It's a shame he never had a scene with Batman...on a roof, of course.
posted by middleclasstool at 11:42 AM on May 13, 2009
Even better, he's also the mayor of Gotham in "The Dark Knight." It's a shame he never had a scene with Batman...on a roof, of course.
posted by middleclasstool at 11:42 AM on May 13, 2009
He played Charles Manson and had a supporting role in "Twister," but Jeremy Davies is probably best known for his pre-"Lost" part in "Saving Private Ryan."
I know that Spanking the Monkey wasn't a hit, but I'm pretty sure anyone who saw it remembers that a lot more than Private Ryan.
Also: I always just imagined that Alpert was Batmanuel's alter ego.
posted by camcgee at 11:48 AM on May 13, 2009
I know that Spanking the Monkey wasn't a hit, but I'm pretty sure anyone who saw it remembers that a lot more than Private Ryan.
Also: I always just imagined that Alpert was Batmanuel's alter ego.
posted by camcgee at 11:48 AM on May 13, 2009
That episode, while doing almost nothing for the plot arc as a whole, was almost a Shakespearian tragedy.
Well, it certainly made me feel like poisoning myself.
posted by hifiparasol at 12:03 PM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
Well, it certainly made me feel like poisoning myself.
posted by hifiparasol at 12:03 PM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
I got distracted by the previous roles of Lost actors.
If you want a good laugh, check out the back cover of 2007's Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars.
Getting second- and third-bill on this project are none other than Tricia Helfer and Josh Holloway, in a last-project-before-they-blew-up-Hollywood videogame.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:09 PM on May 13, 2009
If you want a good laugh, check out the back cover of 2007's Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars.
Getting second- and third-bill on this project are none other than Tricia Helfer and Josh Holloway, in a last-project-before-they-blew-up-Hollywood videogame.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:09 PM on May 13, 2009
My gripes with Lost in a nutshell:
Character 1: Where have you been for the last 3 years? Where did you get that item? Who is that person with you? Why did you shoot that person? How did you get that injury? Why did that dramatic event happen?
Character 2: There's no time to explain.
*characters begin long journey through jungle with sufficient time to explain pretty much anything*
posted by brain_drain at 12:18 PM on May 13, 2009 [12 favorites]
Character 1: Where have you been for the last 3 years? Where did you get that item? Who is that person with you? Why did you shoot that person? How did you get that injury? Why did that dramatic event happen?
Character 2: There's no time to explain.
*characters begin long journey through jungle with sufficient time to explain pretty much anything*
posted by brain_drain at 12:18 PM on May 13, 2009 [12 favorites]
i assume that they do explain while they're walking, and just don't show it.
posted by empath at 12:24 PM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by empath at 12:24 PM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
I think would be nearly impossible to run a mystery show if the characters were always openly sharing information with each other and collaborating on theories. A lot of the drama in discovering things would be lost, and too much time would be spent covering ground the viewer has already been through.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 12:29 PM on May 13, 2009
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 12:29 PM on May 13, 2009
The episode is called "The Incident". I expect a lot of stuff blowing up real good.
posted by empath at 12:38 PM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by empath at 12:38 PM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
¿funny? Lost Recaps in quick scannable text that I used to catch up. Kate is good. And also bad. She is v. complex. Jack is... in touch with his emotional side. Sawyer doesn't have an emotional side, just hot abs and a killer tan. I watched the pilot, the last few of season 4 & all of this season. I do love the show but I don't think I missed much. The arc is developed so so so damned slowly.
I find it good to watch the incomprehensible mumbo jumbo that the castaways take so seriously and newbie watchers expect to make sense and just relax and watch the pretty island foliage & let the weirdness unravel at it's own pace. I just couldn't do that in season 2.
Recently when someone unexpected showed up at the end of an episode, it was like "what how did...??!!", but then "OK, yeah, sure in this universe that's possible. Neat. Looking forward to next week." When 24 throws in twists just because they have two or three episodes to finish the season & they've already sewn up 3 escalations of just how big the terrorist conspiracy is, it's just lazy & irritating.
posted by morganw at 12:44 PM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
I find it good to watch the incomprehensible mumbo jumbo that the castaways take so seriously and newbie watchers expect to make sense and just relax and watch the pretty island foliage & let the weirdness unravel at it's own pace. I just couldn't do that in season 2.
Recently when someone unexpected showed up at the end of an episode, it was like "what how did...??!!", but then "OK, yeah, sure in this universe that's possible. Neat. Looking forward to next week." When 24 throws in twists just because they have two or three episodes to finish the season & they've already sewn up 3 escalations of just how big the terrorist conspiracy is, it's just lazy & irritating.
posted by morganw at 12:44 PM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
I got distracted by the previous roles of Lost actors.
It's only when you realize that Jack's dad is Hawk the Slayer that the cosmic significance of the Island really comes into focus.
posted by SPrintF at 12:47 PM on May 13, 2009
It's only when you realize that Jack's dad is Hawk the Slayer that the cosmic significance of the Island really comes into focus.
posted by SPrintF at 12:47 PM on May 13, 2009
Second half of season 2 and beginning of Season 3 were basically a waste of time. It got good again somewhere in the middle of season 3.
posted by empath at 12:48 PM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by empath at 12:48 PM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
So... am I the only person left who's never seen Lost? Anyone else? Feeling pretty lonely here.
posted by rusty at 1:02 PM on May 13, 2009
posted by rusty at 1:02 PM on May 13, 2009
Wait till next year, rusty, then, when it's all over, get the whole series and press play. You'll be in for a hell of a ride - and no cliffhangers.
posted by Baldons at 1:19 PM on May 13, 2009
posted by Baldons at 1:19 PM on May 13, 2009
>i assume that they do explain while they're walking, and just don't show it.
I don't. If any one of these characters were to spend nine seconds relating his or her most recent experiences to the characters who didn't share them, ninety percent of the groups' problems would disappear.
I tend to think of the show as (Information) Lost.
Unlike in Abrams' Star Trek, no-one in Lost ever wanders into a cave and then gets a sudden mind-meld update.
Instead, because none ever asks or offers common-sense info, everyone's gotta go tromp, tromp, tromping through the jungle, back-and-forth, and now, it seems, through time as well...
posted by darth_tedious at 1:25 PM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
I don't. If any one of these characters were to spend nine seconds relating his or her most recent experiences to the characters who didn't share them, ninety percent of the groups' problems would disappear.
I tend to think of the show as (Information) Lost.
Unlike in Abrams' Star Trek, no-one in Lost ever wanders into a cave and then gets a sudden mind-meld update.
Instead, because none ever asks or offers common-sense info, everyone's gotta go tromp, tromp, tromping through the jungle, back-and-forth, and now, it seems, through time as well...
posted by darth_tedious at 1:25 PM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
I think would be nearly impossible to run a mystery show if the characters were always openly sharing information with each other and collaborating on theories. A lot of the drama in discovering things would be lost, and too much time would be spent covering ground the viewer has already been through.
You just described every episode of 24, which must burn minutes in every episode bringing the audience up to speed, by having all the characters speak in exposition.
"Jack, if you don't defuse that bomb that Ahmed planted, the entire building will collapse and your best friend will die!"
But that's not really a mystery show. The bad guys are identified beforehand, and if they're not, it's nearly always a "shocking twist reveal."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:27 PM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
You just described every episode of 24, which must burn minutes in every episode bringing the audience up to speed, by having all the characters speak in exposition.
"Jack, if you don't defuse that bomb that Ahmed planted, the entire building will collapse and your best friend will die!"
But that's not really a mystery show. The bad guys are identified beforehand, and if they're not, it's nearly always a "shocking twist reveal."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:27 PM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
@empath
I've heard a lot of people complain that season 3 dragged like Ru Paul. My experience has been quite different, since I watched the first four seasons during a disgusting two week bender that left me empty and sad when it was all over. In that context, a lot of pacing problems disappear. Even I was a little frustrated by Locke's father's sudden appearance at the end of a season 3 episode, followed by three episodes that focused on other characters before coming back to Locke. I understand that when this aired, there were hiatus weeks stuck in there as well. I think I would have done something slightly insane if I had been following the show week-to-week at that time. I only caught up with the current season on another bender last week. It's the only way to watch.
posted by Edgewise at 1:27 PM on May 13, 2009
I've heard a lot of people complain that season 3 dragged like Ru Paul. My experience has been quite different, since I watched the first four seasons during a disgusting two week bender that left me empty and sad when it was all over. In that context, a lot of pacing problems disappear. Even I was a little frustrated by Locke's father's sudden appearance at the end of a season 3 episode, followed by three episodes that focused on other characters before coming back to Locke. I understand that when this aired, there were hiatus weeks stuck in there as well. I think I would have done something slightly insane if I had been following the show week-to-week at that time. I only caught up with the current season on another bender last week. It's the only way to watch.
posted by Edgewise at 1:27 PM on May 13, 2009
Also, here's a wild-ass guess for what we'll see tonight: Jacob will turn out to be Jack, stranded since 1977.
posted by Edgewise at 1:31 PM on May 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by Edgewise at 1:31 PM on May 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
If any one of these characters were to spend nine seconds relating his or her most recent experiences to the characters who didn't share them, ninety percent of the groups' problems would disappear.
I'm with you here. Take the Juliet character for example. At some point, she was "turned" from one of the Others to a friendly character. So clearly, she knows waaaay much more about the island than any of the Losties. But part of the suspension of disbelief we must accept is that no one ever sat her down and said, "All right, what's the deal with this right here? And that, what the FUCK is that right there? Tell me. Right now."
Even if she said, "I don't know. I was never told about XYZ," it'd feel more naturalistic.
But that's not the show. Oh well. I still like it.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:32 PM on May 13, 2009
I'm with you here. Take the Juliet character for example. At some point, she was "turned" from one of the Others to a friendly character. So clearly, she knows waaaay much more about the island than any of the Losties. But part of the suspension of disbelief we must accept is that no one ever sat her down and said, "All right, what's the deal with this right here? And that, what the FUCK is that right there? Tell me. Right now."
Even if she said, "I don't know. I was never told about XYZ," it'd feel more naturalistic.
But that's not the show. Oh well. I still like it.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:32 PM on May 13, 2009
It's true that no one ever shares information or asks any questions - but given how the show would go if they did, it's for the best! Ok - so I'll meet you guys back here at eleven? awesome!
posted by moxiedoll at 1:37 PM on May 13, 2009
posted by moxiedoll at 1:37 PM on May 13, 2009
While previous roles can be distracting for the main characters (HOLY FUCK! AUGUSTUS CAN WALK!) I find it even weirder for the bit players. SpiffyLady and I have been catching up on Mad Men while watching L O S T this season, and seeing Patrick Fischler jump back and forth between cracking wise on fat ladies and getting all up in Sawyer's business has been odd.
posted by SpiffyRob at 1:50 PM on May 13, 2009
posted by SpiffyRob at 1:50 PM on May 13, 2009
Jacob is Kyle McLaughlin. Locke and Ben storm in, Jacob looks up at them with a devilish grin and says "How's Annie?"
posted by jbickers at 1:58 PM on May 13, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by jbickers at 1:58 PM on May 13, 2009 [4 favorites]
My problem with Lost, and Abrams in general, is that he seems very good at planting six hundred plot seeds, but once they grow into a tangled mess, he's not very good at elegantly resolving them. They're either abandoned or resolved in heavy-handed, Lucasian duh-ness.
Recent Lost episodes remind me (uncomfortably) of the last season of Battlestar Galactica, or the last season of Sopranos, when I often got the impression that the writers and producers didn't care about the oh-so-intriguing original plans anymore and were just making things up as they went along to get it over with. If it didn't really fit or make sense, oh well... hand-wave and look at this cool explosion...
Lost was great when you were hammered with bizarre mysteries that almost but not quite fit together, because you could believe there was some detail you were missing that would all work out and be resolved in a brilliant tying-together...
...which hasn't happened (yet?) and I'm almost out of faith that it ever will be.
posted by rokusan at 2:07 PM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
Recent Lost episodes remind me (uncomfortably) of the last season of Battlestar Galactica, or the last season of Sopranos, when I often got the impression that the writers and producers didn't care about the oh-so-intriguing original plans anymore and were just making things up as they went along to get it over with. If it didn't really fit or make sense, oh well... hand-wave and look at this cool explosion...
Lost was great when you were hammered with bizarre mysteries that almost but not quite fit together, because you could believe there was some detail you were missing that would all work out and be resolved in a brilliant tying-together...
...which hasn't happened (yet?) and I'm almost out of faith that it ever will be.
posted by rokusan at 2:07 PM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
Seeing Patrick Fischler jump back and forth between cracking wise on fat ladies and getting all up in Sawyer's business has been odd.
He's always Creepy Dream Guy from David Lynch's Mulholland Drive for me, which either ruins or augments his Lost work (I'm not sure) since I always see him as much more sinister than he turns out to be on Lost.
Winky's Dream scene on YouTube. Nightmares ahoy.
posted by rokusan at 2:15 PM on May 13, 2009
He's always Creepy Dream Guy from David Lynch's Mulholland Drive for me, which either ruins or augments his Lost work (I'm not sure) since I always see him as much more sinister than he turns out to be on Lost.
Winky's Dream scene on YouTube. Nightmares ahoy.
posted by rokusan at 2:15 PM on May 13, 2009
he also thinks that Nikki and Paolo were worthless.
Aw, come on. That episode, while doing almost nothing for the plot arc as a whole, was almost a Shakespearian tragedy.
The Nikki and Paolo happened because the writers got drunk and accidentally switched their LOST script with an old Red Shoe Diaries script. Or was it The Hitchhiker? Anyway, ABC filmed it, they just had to take out all the nudity.
posted by zardoz at 2:45 PM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
Aw, come on. That episode, while doing almost nothing for the plot arc as a whole, was almost a Shakespearian tragedy.
The Nikki and Paolo happened because the writers got drunk and accidentally switched their LOST script with an old Red Shoe Diaries script. Or was it The Hitchhiker? Anyway, ABC filmed it, they just had to take out all the nudity.
posted by zardoz at 2:45 PM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
>But part of the suspension of disbelief we must accept is that no one ever sat her down and said, "All right, what's the deal with this right here? And that, what the FUCK is that right there? Tell me. Right now."
On the Island, Pouty or Perturbed Look is the only answer to a direct question.
posted by darth_tedious at 2:49 PM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
On the Island, Pouty or Perturbed Look is the only answer to a direct question.
posted by darth_tedious at 2:49 PM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
Unless, you know, he also thinks that Nikki and Paolo were worthless.
On the contrary, upon rewatching those episodes, the heavy handedness employed in inserting those characters into LOST is hilarious and fun.
posted by graventy at 2:52 PM on May 13, 2009
On the contrary, upon rewatching those episodes, the heavy handedness employed in inserting those characters into LOST is hilarious and fun.
posted by graventy at 2:52 PM on May 13, 2009
My favorite Lost prediction is that Charles Widmore & Eloise Hawking might be going to have been the master & mistress of the slave ship The Black Rock. They lived, unaging, on The Island until they left sometime after 1977. I suspect the rest of The Others were The Black Rock's crew. Or is this common knowledge?
posted by Forrest Greene at 3:29 PM on May 13, 2009
posted by Forrest Greene at 3:29 PM on May 13, 2009
I've never seen Lost. I have seen Al Fish Hairpiece, and he ruined several three week grand tours for me. He talks gibberish non-stop. No idea why VS continues to hire hm.
posted by fixedgear at 3:39 PM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by fixedgear at 3:39 PM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
My favorite Lost prediction is that Charles Widmore & Eloise Hawking might be going to have been the master & mistress of the slave ship The Black Rock. They lived, unaging, on The Island until they left sometime after 1977.
We know Widmore aged on island, though, because we saw him being banished in the 80s and he was played by Old Widmore (and not the Young Hot Widmore of '77). The 80s were obviously INCREDIBLY TOUGH on the guy.
posted by moxiedoll at 3:46 PM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
We know Widmore aged on island, though, because we saw him being banished in the 80s and he was played by Old Widmore (and not the Young Hot Widmore of '77). The 80s were obviously INCREDIBLY TOUGH on the guy.
posted by moxiedoll at 3:46 PM on May 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
(also we've meet the teenaged Charles and Eloise of 1954). Richard Alpert, on the other hand, I think did have something to do with the Black Rock.
posted by moxiedoll at 3:48 PM on May 13, 2009
posted by moxiedoll at 3:48 PM on May 13, 2009
A thought for those who think everyone should just tell each other everything:
From season one on, the group is not one big, happy family. There are shifting alliances, but ultimately many of the ensemble (who the viewer sees as a single entity or unit that is generally working "together") do not trust one another, compete with one another, or downright work against each other. It is not an atmosphere that fosters, encourages, or even rewards trust. If I'm Jack, for example, I love Hurley to death. But why will I tell him something that will clearly make its way to John, who is constantly working against me? Within a month of knowing each other, one person or group had aggrieved a different person or group in a number of ways, just a few examples:
1. Sabotaged Rescue Attempts (Multiple occasions)
2. Caused Death through negligence coupled with lies
3. Poisoned
4. Coerced with or stole firearms. (Multiple Occasions)
5. Flat out tortured.
That's just with about 30 seconds thought. This is a group of erstwhile allies, but they're hardly a cohesive "party". Additionally, it's worth noting that the only real "currency" on the island is information, which everyone realizes on one level or another, and the more that currency is spread around, the more it is devalued by various means.
Also, the show wouldn't work if they all spilled to each other.
posted by absalom at 3:50 PM on May 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
From season one on, the group is not one big, happy family. There are shifting alliances, but ultimately many of the ensemble (who the viewer sees as a single entity or unit that is generally working "together") do not trust one another, compete with one another, or downright work against each other. It is not an atmosphere that fosters, encourages, or even rewards trust. If I'm Jack, for example, I love Hurley to death. But why will I tell him something that will clearly make its way to John, who is constantly working against me? Within a month of knowing each other, one person or group had aggrieved a different person or group in a number of ways, just a few examples:
1. Sabotaged Rescue Attempts (Multiple occasions)
2. Caused Death through negligence coupled with lies
3. Poisoned
4. Coerced with or stole firearms. (Multiple Occasions)
5. Flat out tortured.
That's just with about 30 seconds thought. This is a group of erstwhile allies, but they're hardly a cohesive "party". Additionally, it's worth noting that the only real "currency" on the island is information, which everyone realizes on one level or another, and the more that currency is spread around, the more it is devalued by various means.
Also, the show wouldn't work if they all spilled to each other.
posted by absalom at 3:50 PM on May 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
Also, the show wouldn't work if they all spilled to each other.
That's what Hurley's character is for. He is the Falstaff who cuts to the chase in comedic fashion. If you can't see the Shakespeare, that don't mean it ain't there.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:32 PM on May 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
That's what Hurley's character is for. He is the Falstaff who cuts to the chase in comedic fashion. If you can't see the Shakespeare, that don't mean it ain't there.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:32 PM on May 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
I have to say I have really enjoyed season 4, especially viewed in the "record 'em all and then watch 'em in a burst" fashion I have come to prefer for most shows that follow an episodic arc over a season. I hate cliffhangers, you know?
I really like that this past season seems to have been very carefully crafted and plotted as a whole, as the way the episodes interlock so neatly demonstrates. A lot of episodes in seasons 2 and 3 have always struck me as writers grasping at whatever new tangent that had occurred to them, without any real regard for the storyline they had been building. Hence, obviously, Nikki and Paolo.
posted by John Smallberries at 7:29 PM on May 13, 2009
I really like that this past season seems to have been very carefully crafted and plotted as a whole, as the way the episodes interlock so neatly demonstrates. A lot of episodes in seasons 2 and 3 have always struck me as writers grasping at whatever new tangent that had occurred to them, without any real regard for the storyline they had been building. Hence, obviously, Nikki and Paolo.
posted by John Smallberries at 7:29 PM on May 13, 2009
That was the bomb, so to speak.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:19 PM on May 13, 2009
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:19 PM on May 13, 2009
I was sad about the season ending but it's going to take me until next winter to think through the implications of FALSE LOCKE!!!! That was awesome.
posted by moxiedoll at 8:28 PM on May 13, 2009
posted by moxiedoll at 8:28 PM on May 13, 2009
False Locke was totally the beach guy - I'm going to call him Esau. (Talking to my Lost friends, I mean. And in my head. Where mostly I think about LOST).
posted by moxiedoll at 8:40 PM on May 13, 2009
posted by moxiedoll at 8:40 PM on May 13, 2009
Mocke?
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:19 AM on May 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:19 AM on May 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
Seconding moxie on calling him Esau, which I think is brilliant. I love that, in retrospect, we now know it was Esau -- not Locke himself -- who told Richard to talk to wounded real-Locke that he had to die to bring everyone back, when the truth was that Esau just needed a body to inhabit to take advantage of the loophole.
I've also seen some theories that Esau is/controls the smoke monster. For one, in that first scene on the beach he's wearing black while Jacob is wearing white (also, nice visual shout-out to the backgammon scene from Season 1 with Locke and Walt). For another, the smoke monster creates the vision of Ben's daughter that is key to Ben deciding to kill Jacob.
posted by shiu mai baby at 5:47 AM on May 14, 2009
I've also seen some theories that Esau is/controls the smoke monster. For one, in that first scene on the beach he's wearing black while Jacob is wearing white (also, nice visual shout-out to the backgammon scene from Season 1 with Locke and Walt). For another, the smoke monster creates the vision of Ben's daughter that is key to Ben deciding to kill Jacob.
posted by shiu mai baby at 5:47 AM on May 14, 2009
The season finale was great, but there's one thing that really bothered me about Jack's attempt to change history. The problem seems quite obvious: if they blow up the pocket and prevent their plane crash in the future, then who will go back in time to set the bomb off in the first place? What bugs me is that not one of the group contemplated this very obvious scenario. The closest they came was when Miles commented on how poorly the group had thought through the implications of their actions. I recognize that this was a major theme of the episode (i.e. accepting the cycle versus trying to change it), but I think that this was definitely the weakest part of the finale.
At this point, it seems pretty obvious to me that the bomb at the end would somehow interact with the pocket energy to send Jack, Sawyer and all the rest back into the future. After all, 2007 Richard said that he saw them all die. Since we can't really be killing so many major characters at once, it's pretty obvious what's going to happen next with this particular group of knuckleheads.
posted by Edgewise at 6:27 AM on May 14, 2009
At this point, it seems pretty obvious to me that the bomb at the end would somehow interact with the pocket energy to send Jack, Sawyer and all the rest back into the future. After all, 2007 Richard said that he saw them all die. Since we can't really be killing so many major characters at once, it's pretty obvious what's going to happen next with this particular group of knuckleheads.
posted by Edgewise at 6:27 AM on May 14, 2009
Nikki and Paolo happened because the writers got drunk
I thought it was fairly well-known that the Nikki and Paolo episode happened because the writers asked the fans what they wanted to see more than anything else on the show and the overwhelming response was something along the lines of 'more backstories for the other passengers' and so the writers were like, well, here ya go, and then the fans were like 'oh never mind then, I guess what you were doing was fine.'
posted by shakespeherian at 6:57 AM on May 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
I thought it was fairly well-known that the Nikki and Paolo episode happened because the writers asked the fans what they wanted to see more than anything else on the show and the overwhelming response was something along the lines of 'more backstories for the other passengers' and so the writers were like, well, here ya go, and then the fans were like 'oh never mind then, I guess what you were doing was fine.'
posted by shakespeherian at 6:57 AM on May 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
Actually they were the ones to set off the explosion of energy to begin with. Everything that they have or not have done on the island in 1977 has created the scenario that made the plane crash in the first place. They made Derma leave. They made Ben who he is today. They attacked a swan station that was seemingly pulling all metal towards it. I didn't see anything wrong with it until the losties attacked. Also Jacob visited only those directly involved in the 1977 swan station attack. Jacob knew this was going to happen so he had the 1977 crew be his back up plan. So in blowing up the swan with a nuke did cause them to crash. AND how do I know this? Because simply in the beginning of this last season they started showing re-runs. They started these re-runs in the middle of season 1 to the beginning of season 2. One episode they meet Desmond and Syeed is in the hatch by the energy and says something about a lot of cement, magnetism, and how it would take weeks to chip through all of the cement. SOOO the losties are stuck in a loop that keeps them crashing and False Locke from having Ben kill Jacob. Also the fact that Daniel said to himself before telling the ginger girl to get the fuck out of dodge something along the lines of "I keep telling myself I wasn't doing to do this this time!" But we'll find out in 2010.
Lastly for those who think they are making this up as they go along.... Many of the details in the earlier episodes if you watch them again are lining up with things they just talked about. You know those small details that everyone forgets about.
posted by Mastercheddaar at 7:10 AM on May 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
Lastly for those who think they are making this up as they go along.... Many of the details in the earlier episodes if you watch them again are lining up with things they just talked about. You know those small details that everyone forgets about.
posted by Mastercheddaar at 7:10 AM on May 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
If the bomb reverted everything, Ben didn't get to Jacob.
I'm not 100% convinced that what we saw at the end of the episode was a nuclear explosion.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:22 AM on May 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'm not 100% convinced that what we saw at the end of the episode was a nuclear explosion.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:22 AM on May 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'm not 100% convinced that what we saw at the end of the episode was a nuclear explosion.
Yeah the island has a way of making screwy stuff happen with big bright lights. Also does anyone know what Richard said when ask what was in the shadow of the statue? I got it recorded I might watch it again to see. It is in Latin. It sounded like equlum lumius omnius... All equal light? I dont know....
posted by Mastercheddaar at 8:37 AM on May 14, 2009
Yeah the island has a way of making screwy stuff happen with big bright lights. Also does anyone know what Richard said when ask what was in the shadow of the statue? I got it recorded I might watch it again to see. It is in Latin. It sounded like equlum lumius omnius... All equal light? I dont know....
posted by Mastercheddaar at 8:37 AM on May 14, 2009
MC, the translation I saw this morning was, "he who protects us all," although there was some dispute over whether the verb was "protects" vs. "watches over" vs. "saves".
posted by shiu mai baby at 8:44 AM on May 14, 2009
posted by shiu mai baby at 8:44 AM on May 14, 2009
And in the sixth year of this week Isaac called his two sons, Esau and Jacob, and they came to him, and he said unto them: "My sons, I am going the way of my fathers, to the eternal house 2 where my fathers are. 2. Wherefore bury me near Abraham my father, in the double cave in the field of Ephron the Hittite, where Abraham purchased a sepulchre to bury in; in the sepulchre which I digged for myself, there bury me. 3. And this I command you, my sons, that ye practise righteousness and uprightness on the earth, so that the Lord may bring upon you all that the Lord said that he would do to Abraham and to his seed. 4. And love one another, my sons, your brothers 3 as a man who loveth his own soul, and let each seek in what he may benefit his brother, and act together on the earth; and let them love each other as their own souls. 5. And concerning the question of idols, I command and admonish you to reject them and hate them, and love them not; for they are full of deception for those that worship them and for those that bow down to them. 6. Remember ye, my sons, the Lord God of Abraham your father, and how I too worshipped Him and served Him in righteousness and in joy, that He might multiply you and increase your seed as the stars of heaven in multitude, and establish you on the earth as the plant of righteousness 4 which will not be rooted out unto all the generations for ever. 7. And now I shall make you swear a great oath--for there is no oath which is greater than it by the name glorious and honoured
and great and splendid and wonderful and mighty, which created the heavens and the earth and all things together--that ye will fear Him and worship Him. 8. And that each will love his brother with affection and righteousness, and that neither will desire evil against his brother from henceforth for ever all the days of your life, so that ye may prosper in all your deeds and not be destroyed. 9. And if either of you deviseth evil against his brother, know that from henceforth every one that deviseth evil against his brother will fall into his hand, and will be rooted out of the land of the living, and his seed will be destroyed from under heaven. 10. But on the day of turbulence and execration and indignation and anger, with flaming devouring fire as He burnt Sodom, so likewise will He burn his land and his city and all that is his, and he will be blotted out of the book of the discipline of the children of men, and not be recorded in the book of life, 1 but in that which is appointed to destruction, and he will depart into eternal execration; so that their condemnation may be always renewed in hate and in execration and in wrath and in torment and in indignation and in plagues and in disease for ever. 11. I say and testify to you, my sons, according to the judgment which will come upon the man who wisheth to injure his brother." 12. And he divided all his possessions between the two on that day, and he gave the larger portion to him that was the first-born, and the tower and all that was about it, and all that Abraham possessed at the Well of the Oath. 13. And he said, "This larger portion I shall give to the first-born." 14. And Esau said, "I have sold to Jacob and given my birthright to Jacob; to him let it be given, and I have not a single word to say regarding it, for it is his." 15. And Isaac said, "May a blessing rest upon you, my sons, and upon your seed this day, for ye have given me rest, and my heart is not pained concerning the birthright, lest thou shouldest work wickedness on account -- The Book of Jubilees
posted by empath at 9:18 AM on May 14, 2009
and great and splendid and wonderful and mighty, which created the heavens and the earth and all things together--that ye will fear Him and worship Him. 8. And that each will love his brother with affection and righteousness, and that neither will desire evil against his brother from henceforth for ever all the days of your life, so that ye may prosper in all your deeds and not be destroyed. 9. And if either of you deviseth evil against his brother, know that from henceforth every one that deviseth evil against his brother will fall into his hand, and will be rooted out of the land of the living, and his seed will be destroyed from under heaven. 10. But on the day of turbulence and execration and indignation and anger, with flaming devouring fire as He burnt Sodom, so likewise will He burn his land and his city and all that is his, and he will be blotted out of the book of the discipline of the children of men, and not be recorded in the book of life, 1 but in that which is appointed to destruction, and he will depart into eternal execration; so that their condemnation may be always renewed in hate and in execration and in wrath and in torment and in indignation and in plagues and in disease for ever. 11. I say and testify to you, my sons, according to the judgment which will come upon the man who wisheth to injure his brother." 12. And he divided all his possessions between the two on that day, and he gave the larger portion to him that was the first-born, and the tower and all that was about it, and all that Abraham possessed at the Well of the Oath. 13. And he said, "This larger portion I shall give to the first-born." 14. And Esau said, "I have sold to Jacob and given my birthright to Jacob; to him let it be given, and I have not a single word to say regarding it, for it is his." 15. And Isaac said, "May a blessing rest upon you, my sons, and upon your seed this day, for ye have given me rest, and my heart is not pained concerning the birthright, lest thou shouldest work wickedness on account -- The Book of Jubilees
posted by empath at 9:18 AM on May 14, 2009
That's the name I called him before my wife and I drifted off to sleep last night. I see I'm not the only one to guess that.
My other guess is another brother rivalry: Cain.
Which would awesome.
posted by grubi at 9:23 AM on May 14, 2009
My other guess is another brother rivalry: Cain.
Which would awesome.
posted by grubi at 9:23 AM on May 14, 2009
Awesome, but unlikely given the mixed literary metaphor. No one really talks about Jacob and Cain -- it's either Jacob and Esau, or Cain and Abel.
Mastercheddar, to answer your question more completely, the phrase and translation they use on Lostpedia is: Ille qui nos omnes servabit -- He who will protect (or save) us all.
Latin verb root is servo meaning: to watch over, keep, protect, observe, save, reserve. 1
posted by shiu mai baby at 9:46 AM on May 14, 2009
Mastercheddar, to answer your question more completely, the phrase and translation they use on Lostpedia is: Ille qui nos omnes servabit -- He who will protect (or save) us all.
Latin verb root is servo meaning: to watch over, keep, protect, observe, save, reserve. 1
posted by shiu mai baby at 9:46 AM on May 14, 2009
I like the mixed metaphor. It came from the notion that the Biblical characters were based on real people -- and these two seemingly immortal individuals are tied together as brothers. Brothers who hate each other. And maybe the "Cain and Abel" and "Jacob and Esau" brothers are the same two dudes, centuries apart.
Just an idea.
And then by mixing the names, it would acknowledge that notion.
posted by grubi at 9:55 AM on May 14, 2009
Just an idea.
And then by mixing the names, it would acknowledge that notion.
posted by grubi at 9:55 AM on May 14, 2009
This passage in empath's Jubilees quotation is also worth highlighting, given the apparent destruction of the giant statue:
And concerning the question of idols, I command and admonish you to reject them and hate them, and love them not; for they are full of deception for those that worship them and for those that bow down to them.
posted by brain_drain at 10:22 AM on May 14, 2009
And concerning the question of idols, I command and admonish you to reject them and hate them, and love them not; for they are full of deception for those that worship them and for those that bow down to them.
posted by brain_drain at 10:22 AM on May 14, 2009
Also, I thought the finale was pretty damn good.
posted by brain_drain at 10:23 AM on May 14, 2009
posted by brain_drain at 10:23 AM on May 14, 2009
Interesting: the closing logo screen was white, not black, for the first time ever.
posted by jbickers at 10:49 AM on May 14, 2009
posted by jbickers at 10:49 AM on May 14, 2009
Also Jacob visited only those directly involved in the 1977 swan station attack.
He didn't visit Juliet. Any significance there?
I'm curious about what language Jacob and Ilana were speaking in the hospital. Was it Turkish?
Is the group of Ilana, Bram, and Lapidus supposed to be a cult of the Island, or something?
w/ re: Lost actors' previous roles: I can't look at Bram without thinking of him as the kindly sex addict Denny in Choke.
Ack. Too many LOST questions. Must watch those parody videos later.
posted by wowbobwow at 11:08 AM on May 14, 2009
He didn't visit Juliet. Any significance there?
I'm curious about what language Jacob and Ilana were speaking in the hospital. Was it Turkish?
Is the group of Ilana, Bram, and Lapidus supposed to be a cult of the Island, or something?
w/ re: Lost actors' previous roles: I can't look at Bram without thinking of him as the kindly sex addict Denny in Choke.
Ack. Too many LOST questions. Must watch those parody videos later.
posted by wowbobwow at 11:08 AM on May 14, 2009
I think this was the best season-ending cliffhanger in the entire series' run. Goofy in places, but BAM.
posted by grubi at 12:15 PM on May 14, 2009
posted by grubi at 12:15 PM on May 14, 2009
It could have been worse. I found it amusing to picture Jacob wandering into the flashbacks just to mention the name of the show.
"Can you help me? I seem to be lost." dun-dun!
"I think you lost a candy bar." dun-dun!
"Oh? Your pen has lost its ink?" dun-dun!
posted by Pronoiac at 4:25 PM on May 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
"Can you help me? I seem to be lost." dun-dun!
"I think you lost a candy bar." dun-dun!
"Oh? Your pen has lost its ink?" dun-dun!
posted by Pronoiac at 4:25 PM on May 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
When the truth was that Esau just needed a body to inhabit to take advantage of the loophole.
No, that body is right there, still dead on the beach, presumably "uninhabited."
I'm glad that all that "dead is dead" and "I've never seen anyone come back" stuff turned out to be significant. I was getting tired of hearing it hammered over and over again.
Like many in the thread, I thought of Cain and Abel first, during the opening scene, before amending it to Esau later in my mind. (Especially Gaiman's House of Mysteries Cain and Abel. Maybe the smoke monster is Goldie the Gargoyle.)
So that was not as bad as I'd feared, in terms of they're-clearly-making-this-up-as-they-go-along-ness. But I still do have that feeling. The suddenly-we-get-them-now flashbacks to Jacob in everyone's life? That really felt like a clumsy retcon. If that was really in the cards all along, it would have been nice to see one or two of those scenes before... anytime in the last five freaking years. Just one would have been fine, and would have convinced me there really was a grand plot here, rather than a whole lot of plotting from the hip.
Heck, the Jacob and Esau on the beach scene should have been about three seasons ago, remaining unexplained, never discussed again until just now.
THAT, friends, would have made it all quite a masterpiece.
posted by rokusan at 12:02 AM on May 15, 2009
No, that body is right there, still dead on the beach, presumably "uninhabited."
I'm glad that all that "dead is dead" and "I've never seen anyone come back" stuff turned out to be significant. I was getting tired of hearing it hammered over and over again.
Like many in the thread, I thought of Cain and Abel first, during the opening scene, before amending it to Esau later in my mind. (Especially Gaiman's House of Mysteries Cain and Abel. Maybe the smoke monster is Goldie the Gargoyle.)
So that was not as bad as I'd feared, in terms of they're-clearly-making-this-up-as-they-go-along-ness. But I still do have that feeling. The suddenly-we-get-them-now flashbacks to Jacob in everyone's life? That really felt like a clumsy retcon. If that was really in the cards all along, it would have been nice to see one or two of those scenes before... anytime in the last five freaking years. Just one would have been fine, and would have convinced me there really was a grand plot here, rather than a whole lot of plotting from the hip.
Heck, the Jacob and Esau on the beach scene should have been about three seasons ago, remaining unexplained, never discussed again until just now.
THAT, friends, would have made it all quite a masterpiece.
posted by rokusan at 12:02 AM on May 15, 2009
Heck, the Jacob and Esau on the beach scene should have been about three seasons ago, remaining unexplained, never discussed again until just now.
THAT, friends, would have made it all quite a masterpiece.
Wow. Yeah. That's brilliant.1
1. Seriously. I like that a lot.
posted by grubi at 5:24 AM on May 15, 2009
THAT, friends, would have made it all quite a masterpiece.
Wow. Yeah. That's brilliant.1
1. Seriously. I like that a lot.
posted by grubi at 5:24 AM on May 15, 2009
He didn't visit Juliet. Any significance there?
It did stick out to me that Juliet had a flashback in the episode, but Jacob wasn't in it. I also started noticing about halfway through (I think when he gave Jack his candy bar) that Jacob made physical contact with everyone he visited-- I'm not sure if he touched everyone before I started noticing though (Locke, Kate).
posted by shakespeherian at 6:22 AM on May 15, 2009
It did stick out to me that Juliet had a flashback in the episode, but Jacob wasn't in it. I also started noticing about halfway through (I think when he gave Jack his candy bar) that Jacob made physical contact with everyone he visited-- I'm not sure if he touched everyone before I started noticing though (Locke, Kate).
posted by shakespeherian at 6:22 AM on May 15, 2009
Heck, the Jacob and Esau on the beach scene should have been about three seasons ago, remaining unexplained, never discussed again until just now.
THAT, friends, would have made it all quite a masterpiece.
That would have been great. I wonder how difficult that would have been given the nature of contracts for actors on a television show.
posted by Uncle Ira at 8:09 AM on May 15, 2009 [1 favorite]
THAT, friends, would have made it all quite a masterpiece.
That would have been great. I wonder how difficult that would have been given the nature of contracts for actors on a television show.
posted by Uncle Ira at 8:09 AM on May 15, 2009 [1 favorite]
They could always do that on future releases of the season 1 dvd.
posted by empath at 8:43 AM on May 15, 2009
posted by empath at 8:43 AM on May 15, 2009
Heck, the Jacob and Esau on the beach scene should have been about three seasons ago, remaining unexplained, never discussed again until just now.
maybe in an alternate timeline, where dropping something interesting to get into other things wasn't the number one thing people complain about with this show. I think it would have really undermined things to find out that Jacob is an actual dude and that there's another dude who is his nemesis on the island. In Season Three, did we even know that there was an outside war for the island? Why would it be cool to skip over that revelation and go right to the internal war?
posted by moxiedoll at 11:07 AM on May 15, 2009
maybe in an alternate timeline, where dropping something interesting to get into other things wasn't the number one thing people complain about with this show. I think it would have really undermined things to find out that Jacob is an actual dude and that there's another dude who is his nemesis on the island. In Season Three, did we even know that there was an outside war for the island? Why would it be cool to skip over that revelation and go right to the internal war?
posted by moxiedoll at 11:07 AM on May 15, 2009
I think it would have really undermined things to find out that Jacob is an actual dude and that there's another dude who is his nemesis on the island.
They didn't need to use his name. That was silly anyway, as it was so obvious (by Season 5).
It was just two castaways 200 years ago, waiting for The Black Rock to arrive.
posted by rokusan at 3:07 PM on May 15, 2009
They didn't need to use his name. That was silly anyway, as it was so obvious (by Season 5).
It was just two castaways 200 years ago, waiting for The Black Rock to arrive.
posted by rokusan at 3:07 PM on May 15, 2009
If it's Jacob and Esau, who is Alpert? Did the brothers have some mediating figure, or 'adviser'?
I'd like to learn more about the Egyptian mythology they are tossing in. Jacob weaving that figure (Thoth?) that is the same as what the statue was once. Ohhh what a pickle they've got me in! I've only been watching since season 3 but they're got me pretty good.
posted by wowbobwow at 3:38 PM on May 15, 2009
I'd like to learn more about the Egyptian mythology they are tossing in. Jacob weaving that figure (Thoth?) that is the same as what the statue was once. Ohhh what a pickle they've got me in! I've only been watching since season 3 but they're got me pretty good.
posted by wowbobwow at 3:38 PM on May 15, 2009
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Mobisodes! Mobisodes! Mobisodes!
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 11:17 AM on May 13, 2009 [1 favorite]