Arguing the Point not the Person.
August 27, 2009 6:31 AM Subscribe
It seems most people don't have the courage to discuss the main issues.
Managing Editor of The Nation; Roane Carey, comments on an LA Times oped by Israeli professor Neve Gordon, (recent articles) to support BDS.
Gordon's right to argue his point is put by Stephen Walt in Foreign Policy. (related).
Managing Editor of The Nation; Roane Carey, comments on an LA Times oped by Israeli professor Neve Gordon, (recent articles) to support BDS.
Gordon's right to argue his point is put by Stephen Walt in Foreign Policy. (related).
This post was deleted for the following reason: we are firmly into GYOB territory. If you want to discuss one topic several times per week, you need to do that on your own blog. -- jessamyn
Oh, good. That circumcision thread has been slowing down.
On topic, there is a bit of a head-cocking nature when you see someone saying, "Punish my country, please!" You can be as logically sound as you want in your argument for it, but the nationalistic daemon on each person's shoulder will get riled up no matter where you're from. At what point does, "It's for our own good?" become traitorous?
posted by cimbrog at 6:45 AM on August 27, 2009
On topic, there is a bit of a head-cocking nature when you see someone saying, "Punish my country, please!" You can be as logically sound as you want in your argument for it, but the nationalistic daemon on each person's shoulder will get riled up no matter where you're from. At what point does, "It's for our own good?" become traitorous?
posted by cimbrog at 6:45 AM on August 27, 2009
(ContextBot says: BDS stands for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions for Palestine, where "for Palestine" means "in support of".)
posted by DU at 6:47 AM on August 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by DU at 6:47 AM on August 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
(I figure that's one of those terms that people who get very invested in this issue forget that no one else has even heard of.)
posted by smackfu at 6:48 AM on August 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by smackfu at 6:48 AM on August 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
Adamvasco, shut up about I/P already.
posted by Afroblanco at 6:50 AM on August 27, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by Afroblanco at 6:50 AM on August 27, 2009 [3 favorites]
Oh, good. That circumcision thread has been slowing down.
As Muslims, Jews and many Christians circumcise. Perhaps the love of whittling chunks off of boys' penises is the common ground that Israel and Palestine seek!
posted by Pollomacho at 6:51 AM on August 27, 2009
As Muslims, Jews and many Christians circumcise. Perhaps the love of whittling chunks off of boys' penises is the common ground that Israel and Palestine seek!
posted by Pollomacho at 6:51 AM on August 27, 2009
(I don't know what was going on with the punctuation in that sentence)
posted by Pollomacho at 6:52 AM on August 27, 2009
posted by Pollomacho at 6:52 AM on August 27, 2009
smackfu I rather figure that, when the "Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions Movement" was created, somebody had to point out:
"I think we should be careful about how we abbreviate this."
Sorry for the derail
posted by Skeptic at 6:54 AM on August 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
"I think we should be careful about how we abbreviate this."
Sorry for the derail
posted by Skeptic at 6:54 AM on August 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
Adamvasco : It seems most people don't have the courage to agree with my incessant agendafilter
posted by Afroblanco at 6:55 AM on August 27, 2009
posted by Afroblanco at 6:55 AM on August 27, 2009
At what point does, "It's for our own good?" become traitorous?
In real terms, it's when you lose. Some might argue that encouraging the Settlements/Incursions is destructive to Israel and therefore traitorous, but since it's state policy, they're winning.
That's what's at stake, and what's making the opposition to this line of thought so loud. It's not about doing the right thing, or even being right, but being on top.
I'm thinking we're seeing the term "apartheid" begin become part of the lexicon associated with Israel. We're also seeing the attempts to suppress that association. "Occupied Territories" is accurate, but hasn't stuck in a lot of minds. "Israeli Settlers" conjures images of people on a quiet frontier, and so that doesn't stick in heads as a bad thing.
If Jimmy Carter has done nothing else, I think that associating "apartheid" with Israel might be the most momentous thing done by a man in this century.
posted by lysdexic at 6:59 AM on August 27, 2009
In real terms, it's when you lose. Some might argue that encouraging the Settlements/Incursions is destructive to Israel and therefore traitorous, but since it's state policy, they're winning.
That's what's at stake, and what's making the opposition to this line of thought so loud. It's not about doing the right thing, or even being right, but being on top.
I'm thinking we're seeing the term "apartheid" begin become part of the lexicon associated with Israel. We're also seeing the attempts to suppress that association. "Occupied Territories" is accurate, but hasn't stuck in a lot of minds. "Israeli Settlers" conjures images of people on a quiet frontier, and so that doesn't stick in heads as a bad thing.
If Jimmy Carter has done nothing else, I think that associating "apartheid" with Israel might be the most momentous thing done by a man in this century.
posted by lysdexic at 6:59 AM on August 27, 2009
The writing is on the wall for Israel. The longer this conflict goes on without a two-state solution, the more they allow settlements to be built and for the Palestinians to be forced under their control, in their country, as second-class citizens, the more that Israel, Gaza and the West Bank will be seen a single nation in which one ethnic group is oppressing the other. An apartheid state
It won't happen quickly, but I suspect there will fairly soon be a tipping point beyond which no two-state solution will be possible - Israel will have no feasible way to remove the hundreds of thousands of settlers who have effectively invaded large swaths of land that could not be part of Israel in a two-state solution
posted by crayz at 7:03 AM on August 27, 2009
It won't happen quickly, but I suspect there will fairly soon be a tipping point beyond which no two-state solution will be possible - Israel will have no feasible way to remove the hundreds of thousands of settlers who have effectively invaded large swaths of land that could not be part of Israel in a two-state solution
posted by crayz at 7:03 AM on August 27, 2009
The story goes that God invited the American president, the French president, and the Israeli prime minister for a meeting. God tells them that each of them can ask one question.
The American president asks God: "When will the American people be able to stop paying taxes?" God answers "It is not going to happen in your lifetime." The American president starts crying and leaves the room.
Next, the French president asks: "When will the french people be happy?" God answers "It is not going to happen in your lifetime." The French president starts crying and leaves the room.
Finally, the Israeli Prime Minister asks God: “When will there be peace in the middle east?” God answers "It is not going to happen in my lifetime," starts crying and leaves the room.
posted by you just lost the game at 7:11 AM on August 27, 2009 [4 favorites]
The American president asks God: "When will the American people be able to stop paying taxes?" God answers "It is not going to happen in your lifetime." The American president starts crying and leaves the room.
Next, the French president asks: "When will the french people be happy?" God answers "It is not going to happen in your lifetime." The French president starts crying and leaves the room.
Finally, the Israeli Prime Minister asks God: “When will there be peace in the middle east?” God answers "It is not going to happen in my lifetime," starts crying and leaves the room.
posted by you just lost the game at 7:11 AM on August 27, 2009 [4 favorites]
I remember when Vanessa Redgrave was considered the next worst thing to Ilse Koch for her support of the Palestinians.
Times done changed.
posted by Joe Beese at 7:12 AM on August 27, 2009
Times done changed.
posted by Joe Beese at 7:12 AM on August 27, 2009
Personally, I think it would go better if the Abrahamic types shut up and let secular folks handle it. There would probably be a lot less blood.
posted by kldickson at 7:13 AM on August 27, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by kldickson at 7:13 AM on August 27, 2009 [2 favorites]
Politics aside, if you are an american, you could go to jail for refusing to do business with Israel.
There is in fact an agency of the US federal government, charged with enforcing antiboycott compliance.
posted by thermonuclear.jive.turkey at 7:16 AM on August 27, 2009 [2 favorites]
There is in fact an agency of the US federal government, charged with enforcing antiboycott compliance.
posted by thermonuclear.jive.turkey at 7:16 AM on August 27, 2009 [2 favorites]
Yeah, when BDS and apartheid are pranced about like show-ponies, then all real discussion of the issues comes to a slamming stop. This is extreme wing-nuttery that wants to turn middle-east politics into a superhero movie, with cackling villains and helpless victims, and, oh look! It's Western Liberal Man to the rescue! Biff! Pow! Bap!
Not to call out the submitter, but, well, I'm going to call out the submitter. His posts on the topic have all the nuance and insight of a hatchet at the whetstone.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:18 AM on August 27, 2009 [5 favorites]
Not to call out the submitter, but, well, I'm going to call out the submitter. His posts on the topic have all the nuance and insight of a hatchet at the whetstone.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:18 AM on August 27, 2009 [5 favorites]
Oh. Well, I thought it was a good article, and not a bad post.
posted by lysdexic at 7:20 AM on August 27, 2009
posted by lysdexic at 7:20 AM on August 27, 2009
Real discussion comes to a slamming stop when real solutions that work in many similar situations are excluded as being UnSerioustm.
posted by DU at 7:20 AM on August 27, 2009
posted by DU at 7:20 AM on August 27, 2009
In real terms, it's when you lose. Some might argue that encouraging the Settlements/Incursions is destructive to Israel and therefore traitorous, but since it's state policy, they're winning.
I guess what I was more interested in was the idea of wishing actual harm upon your own country, even to the point of asking other countries to inflict that harm, because you feel that your country needs that sort of intervention.
It is an interesting and rarely summoned solution to the problem of having your county go in a direction you feel is wrong. It is also the ultimate throwing up of the hands in powerlessness in that you feel so helpless to change your country from within that you must call upon other nations to change it for you. Are the powers that be so entrenched against the will of the people that this needs to be done? Is the will of the people just wrong in your opinion and they need to have some sense knocked into them? It seems an extreme position to take against your own country and the backlash is fairly understandable, even if Gordon is right.
posted by cimbrog at 7:24 AM on August 27, 2009
I guess what I was more interested in was the idea of wishing actual harm upon your own country, even to the point of asking other countries to inflict that harm, because you feel that your country needs that sort of intervention.
It is an interesting and rarely summoned solution to the problem of having your county go in a direction you feel is wrong. It is also the ultimate throwing up of the hands in powerlessness in that you feel so helpless to change your country from within that you must call upon other nations to change it for you. Are the powers that be so entrenched against the will of the people that this needs to be done? Is the will of the people just wrong in your opinion and they need to have some sense knocked into them? It seems an extreme position to take against your own country and the backlash is fairly understandable, even if Gordon is right.
posted by cimbrog at 7:24 AM on August 27, 2009
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posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:45 AM on August 27, 2009